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View Full Version : Blue Jays Acquire Yunel Escobar and Jo-Jo Reyes



Homer Bailey
07-14-2010, 01:03 PM
mlbtraderumors BLUE JAYS have acquired ESCOBAR and JO-JO REYES from Braves in exchange for ALEX GONZALEZ, TIM COLLINS & INF TYLER PASTRONICKY.

http://twitter.com/mlbtraderumors/status/18529859022

Homer Bailey
07-14-2010, 01:06 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/blue-jays-acquire-yunel-escobar.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

westofyou
07-14-2010, 01:08 PM
Braves not at all impressed with Escobar, when Bobby Cox doesn't like you as a player than you're doing something wrong.

Brutus
07-14-2010, 01:08 PM
That's quite the gamble by Atlanta. If Gonzalez continues having the kind of season he's been having, it could pay off. But if he doesn't -- I'm not sure how they'll feel. Escobar has been a disappointment with the bat, but he's most certainly been very good in the field.

HotCorner
07-14-2010, 01:09 PM
Well this means no Gonzalez to STL too.

Homer Bailey
07-14-2010, 01:09 PM
What do we know about Collins and Pastronicky? I would have loved to grab Escobar. Seems like a pretty cheap price paid by the Jays.

LincolnparkRed
07-14-2010, 01:10 PM
Had Reyes made more than a start or two for the Braves this year?

OnBaseMachine
07-14-2010, 01:11 PM
Great trade for the Blue Jays, IMO. I would have loved to have seen the Reds acquire Escobar.

Brutus
07-14-2010, 01:13 PM
Had Reyes made more than a start or two for the Braves this year?

Nope. They have a set rotation now with Hanson, Hudson, Jurrjens, Medlen and Lowe. Kawakami was in there for Medlen until Medlen started pitching so well in Jurrjens' absence. Reyes was a man without a role.

nate
07-14-2010, 01:22 PM
Nutty trade!

RedsManRick
07-14-2010, 01:26 PM
Interesting. Escobar has been on the outs for the last 18 months and has really struggled at the plate this year (.046 ISO!). But he's been a bit BABIP unlucky, has walked more than he struck out, and is excellent defensively. He's just a great buy low candidate. Reyes is AAA filler with decent stuff for a lefty -- he just doesn't miss bats or throw strikes.

On the Braves side, Gonzalez probably isn't a huge upgrade over Escobar, but it does help the clubhouse. Collins meanwhile looks like the second coming of Billy Wagner on the stat sheet. I've not heard of him, but a 20 year old lefty reliever striking out 15.3 per 9 in AA? Yes please. And he wasn't even drafted -- I'd love to know that story.

Pastronicky was a 5th rd pick in 2008. Looks like a classic speedy SS type, with 57 SB in 2009. He showed a pretty good plate approach for a 19 year old in A Ball.

I'd say that unless Escobar reaches his potential, the Braves made out pretty darn well.

lollipopcurve
07-14-2010, 01:38 PM
Put it this way. Schuerholz is still there, Cox is still there, and the Braves are still winning. Who here would have thought dropping Kelly Johnson in favor of Martin Prado was a good idea?

It's an organization that knows what it's doing.

Tom Servo
07-14-2010, 02:20 PM
Braves are selling incredibly low I think. Even with his struggles I would imagine Escobar could net more than A-Gon and some lower level prospects.

pedro
07-14-2010, 02:25 PM
They're building quite the clubhouse atmosphere there in Toronto.

bucksfan2
07-14-2010, 02:26 PM
Put it this way. Schuerholz is still there, Cox is still there, and the Braves are still winning. Who here would have thought dropping Kelly Johnson in favor of Martin Prado was a good idea?

It's an organization that knows what it's doing.

When you have well run organizations there is always a reason for trading someone. In Escobar's case it is somewhat odd that a young player with a lot of potential upside at a position that is difficult to replace is traded.

I think it is more an indictment of Escobar when Cox and Schuerholz both give up on you than anything else .

PuffyPig
07-14-2010, 02:28 PM
Well this means no Gonzalez to STL too.

Too bad for us.....

15fan
07-14-2010, 02:29 PM
Escobar will give the Jays the same thing at SS that Edwin Encarnacion gave them (and the Reds) at 3B: Flashes of :eek: mixed in with a lot of :bang:

Escobar and Reyes officially join the long line of overly hyped Braves prospects that goes back to the likes Mike Kelley and Bruce Chen, and include more recent names like Wilson Betemit, Jeff Francouer, Joey Devine, Jung Keun Bong and Bubba Nelson.

If Escobar can figure out how to extract his head from his rectum, he's got a world of talent.

Hopefully there's a world-class proctologist in Toronto waiting for him.

jojo
07-14-2010, 03:10 PM
Trading Escobar because of character issues kind of reminds me of another such trade-Carlos Guillen. I wonder if the Ms wish they had that one back...

bucksfan2
07-14-2010, 03:17 PM
Trading Escobar because of character issues kind of reminds me of another such trade-Carlos Guillen. I wonder if the Ms wish they had that one back...

Guys off the top of my head that were traded because of character issues: Elijah Dukes, Lastings Milledge, Jose Guillen, Milton Bradley, and Delmon Young.

Sure you can cherry pick times when a bad apple turns good, but more often than not character issue players are uber talented, but never realize their potential.

lollipopcurve
07-14-2010, 03:19 PM
Trading Escobar because of character issues kind of reminds me of another such trade-Carlos Guillen. I wonder if the Ms wish they had that one back...

I wonder if the Cubs wish they could undo the Bradley-Silva trade....

mdccclxix
07-14-2010, 03:24 PM
Can we just merge this thread with the "What can the Reds to to help the team now?" thread?

15fan
07-14-2010, 03:40 PM
Trading Escobar because of character issues kind of reminds me of another such trade-Carlos Guillen. I wonder if the Ms wish they had that one back...

The thing about the Braves, though, is that Bobby Cox is a lot like Red Foreman from That 70s Show: Bust your butt without being a pain in my butt, and everything will be fine.

If you can do that, history tells us that you are most likely going to be on a team that wins a lot of games and goes to the post-season. It also tells us that if/when you slump as a player, Cox will stick with you and work with you longer than a lot of other managers.

When Warren Buffett sells a stock he's usually ahead of the curve. Same thing with Cox/Schuerholz and young players. The young guys they deal away generally bottom out and fade away on someone else's watch. Outside of Elvis Andrus, very rarely have they dealt away a young guy to watch him blossom elsewhere.

(The Rangers got it right when they put the Braves over a barrell & demanded Andrus for Teixiera a couple of years ago. That's the only deal I remember in 15 years in the ATL where there was unified consensus that giving up Andrus was a steep price to pay.)

TheNext44
07-14-2010, 03:53 PM
Interesting. Escobar has been on the outs for the last 18 months and has really struggled at the plate this year (.046 ISO!). But he's been a bit BABIP unlucky, has walked more than he struck out, and is excellent defensively. He's just a great buy low candidate. Reyes is AAA filler with decent stuff for a lefty -- he just doesn't miss bats or throw strikes.

On the Braves side, Gonzalez probably isn't a huge upgrade over Escobar, but it does help the clubhouse. Collins meanwhile looks like the second coming of Billy Wagner on the stat sheet. I've not heard of him, but a 20 year old lefty reliever striking out 15.3 per 9 in AA? Yes please. And he wasn't even drafted -- I'd love to know that story.

Pastronicky was a 5th rd pick in 2008. Looks like a classic speedy SS type, with 57 SB in 2009. He showed a pretty good plate approach for a 19 year old in A Ball.

I'd say that unless Escobar reaches his potential, the Braves made out pretty darn well.


Collins is strange one. Don't know anything about him, but he strikes out a ton, and is listed at 5 foot 7 inches. That's an inch taller than Herrera. That's really baffling, especially since he's in AA, which means he's not a fluke. I would love to see him pitch or read more about him.

westofyou
07-14-2010, 03:59 PM
Guys off the top of my head that were traded because of character issues: Elijah Dukes, Lastings Milledge, Jose Guillen, Milton Bradley, and Delmon Young.

Sure you can cherry pick times when a bad apple turns good, but more often than not character issue players are uber talented, but never realize their potential.

Kal Daniels comes to mind.

Sometimes you get rid of them just in time

bucksfan2
07-14-2010, 04:06 PM
Kal Daniels comes to mind.

Sometimes you get rid of them just in time

What did Kal get booted from RZ?

Wasn't old enough back during Kal's days with the Reds to know.

savafan
07-14-2010, 04:49 PM
Escobar and Reyes officially join the long line of overly hyped Braves prospects that goes back to the likes Mike Kelley and Bruce Chen, and include more recent names like Wilson Betemit, Jeff Francouer, Joey Devine, Jung Keun Bong and Bubba Nelson.



How could you forget Rob Bell?

Tom Servo
07-14-2010, 04:56 PM
Guys off the top of my head that were traded because of character issues: Elijah Dukes, Lastings Milledge, Jose Guillen, Milton Bradley, and Delmon Young.

Sure you can cherry pick times when a bad apple turns good, but more often than not character issue players are uber talented, but never realize their potential.
But what if the 'bad apple' tag isn't justified, or completely accurate? The issues with Escobar sound similar to the complaints the Indians and their fans had about our current second baseman.

RedsManRick
07-14-2010, 04:57 PM
From Baseball America, via Fangraphs:

Pastornicky


An athletic infielder, Pastornicky doesn’t have flashy tools but gets the most out of what he has. He has good instincts at shortstop, along with plus range and an average arm. He’s an above-average runner and basestealer, which opposing catchers quickly figured out as he swiped 57 bases between two Class A stops in 2009. Pastornicky has a line-drive stroke and projects as .275 hitter in the big leagues. The only thing he lacks is power, as he has hit just two homers in 636 pro at-bats. But as a potential top-of-the-order hitter who provides sound defense, he may not need it.

Collins

He gets outs with a solid fastball that tops out at 93 mph and a true 12-to-6 curveball that he spins really well. His quirky delivery helps him as well. He has a high three-quarters arm slot and does an especially good job of staying on top of the ball and driving down despite his height. He has a high leg kick and stands as far to the third-base side of the rubber as possible.

KronoRed
07-14-2010, 05:11 PM
Spectacular deal for the Jays.

camisadelgolf
07-14-2010, 05:39 PM
I find it hard to believe that the Reds couldn't have topped that deal if they didn't want to. It sounds to me like the Reds just weren't all that interested.

mdccclxix
07-14-2010, 05:45 PM
The thing about the Braves, though, is that Bobby Cox is a lot like Red Foreman from That 70s Show: Bust your butt without being a pain in my butt, and everything will be fine.

If you can do that, history tells us that you are most likely going to be on a team that wins a lot of games and goes to the post-season. It also tells us that if/when you slump as a player, Cox will stick with you and work with you longer than a lot of other managers.

When Warren Buffett sells a stock he's usually ahead of the curve. Same thing with Cox/Schuerholz and young players. The young guys they deal away generally bottom out and fade away on someone else's watch. Outside of Elvis Andrus, very rarely have they dealt away a young guy to watch him blossom elsewhere.

(The Rangers got it right when they put the Braves over a barrell & demanded Andrus for Teixiera a couple of years ago. That's the only deal I remember in 15 years in the ATL where there was unified consensus that giving up Andrus was a steep price to pay.)

Feliz, Harrison and Salty were in that deal too. Pretty steeply overpaid.

medford
07-14-2010, 06:00 PM
well dang, there goes my buy low in the offseason SS idea. Although Yunell seems like the anti-Walt guy, and lord knows they're not going to move off of OCab during the season.

blumj
07-14-2010, 06:04 PM
Collins meanwhile looks like the second coming of Billy Wagner on the stat sheet. I've not heard of him, but a 20 year old lefty reliever striking out 15.3 per 9 in AA? Yes please. And he wasn't even drafted -- I'd love to know that story.

You might want to listen to this then. JP Ricciardi just stumbled onto him at a local high school game. JP does radio up here regularly, and Collins came up when they were talking about Daniel Nava, around 5 minutes in.

http://audio.weei.com/m/32005740/jp-ricciardi-espn-analyst.htm

jojo
07-14-2010, 06:36 PM
Guys off the top of my head that were traded because of character issues: Elijah Dukes, Lastings Milledge, Jose Guillen, Milton Bradley, and Delmon Young.

Sure you can cherry pick times when a bad apple turns good, but more often than not character issue players are uber talented, but never realize their potential.

Most of those guys also had a history of being big jerk wads too... Escobar is having a career year slump in the power department and he's still tracking to be an average major leaguer. In other words, he's already provided $40M+ surplus value production-wise while Atlanta has waited for him to "put it together".

edabbs44
07-14-2010, 06:53 PM
Most of those guys also had a history of being big jerk wads too... Escobar is having a career year slump in the power department and he's still tracking to be an average major leaguer. In other words, he's already provided $40M+ surplus value production-wise while Atlanta has waited for him to "put it together".

And we really don't know the whole story of his jerkwadness, if that is an issue.

jojo
07-14-2010, 07:23 PM
And we really don't know the whole story of his jerkwadness, if that is an issue.

I'm not sure why such a trait would be kept a secret.

Here's a couple of other "character" guys traded: Rios, Hamilton.... Iin response to a previous comment about cherry picking Guillen)

edabbs44
07-14-2010, 07:26 PM
I'm not sure why such a trait would be kept a secret.

Here's a couple of other "character" guys traded: Rios, Hamilton.... Iin response to a previous comment about cherry picking Guillen)

Maybe they don't want to kill his value. Or maybe he is another Cris Carter.

PuffyPig
07-14-2010, 08:06 PM
Outside of Elvis Andrus, very rarely have they dealt away a young guy to watch him blossom elsewhere.



Adam Wainwright might disagree.

He may well be in the top 3 pitchers in the NL.

15fan
07-14-2010, 08:22 PM
Adam Wainwright might disagree.

He may well be in the top 3 pitchers in the NL.

Fair point. Wainright has blossomed.

(Wainright went in the deal for JD Drew, who then proceeded to finish 6th in the NL MVP voting during his one year in Atlanta before he walked as a FA.)

So that makes 2 guys whom the Braves reluctantly traded who then blossomed elsewhere.

The wash-outs still far outnumber the subsequent stars.

Brutus
07-14-2010, 10:04 PM
I find it hard to believe that the Reds couldn't have topped that deal if they didn't want to. It sounds to me like the Reds just weren't all that interested.

I think it's easy to believe because the Reds didn't have a replacement shortstop to offer Atlanta. The Braves wouldn't have pulled the trigger trading Escobar if they didn't get someone to replace him. It wasn't that they were looking for the best deal in return... it was they were looking for the best deal that involved someone to upgrade the position.

RedsManRick
07-14-2010, 10:37 PM
You might want to listen to this then. JP Ricciardi just stumbled onto him at a local high school game. JP does radio up here regularly, and Collins came up when they were talking about Daniel Nava, around 5 minutes in.

http://audio.weei.com/m/32005740/jp-ricciardi-espn-analyst.htm

Thanks!

RedsManRick
07-14-2010, 10:40 PM
Fair point. Wainright has blossomed.

(Wainright went in the deal for JD Drew, who then proceeded to finish 6th in the NL MVP voting during his one year in Atlanta before he walked as a FA.)

So that makes 2 guys whom the Braves reluctantly traded who then blossomed elsewhere.

The wash-outs still far outnumber the subsequent stars.

But what's the baseline. In deals of established players for prospects, I imagine the prospects fail to pan out more often than not.

westofyou
07-16-2010, 01:59 PM
Buster Olney tweeting last night:


When Alex Gonzalez walked into the Atlanta clubhouse the Braves' players gave him a standing ovation.


http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/ok-so-maybe-the-braves-really-really-didnt-like-yunel-escobar.php


First thought: wow.

Second thought: Buster only knows that because someone on the inside in Braves land made a special point to tell him about it. Which seems kind of sad to me, actually, because it means someone is really going out of their way to bury Yunel Escobar in the press.

Lots of someones actually, because it's not just Buster with this stuff. Talking casually to other writers over the past day or two and the most striking thing is that almost everyone has talked to someone with the Braves who has had something bad to say about the guy. There's always a bit of an analyst/reporter split in evaluating a trade, but the degree to which reporters with team sources all love the Gonzalez deal so much and analysts don't is (a) uncanny; (b) almost certainly a function of hearing negatives about him from Braves sources.

bucksfan2
07-16-2010, 02:37 PM
Buster Olney tweeting last night:


When Alex Gonzalez walked into the Atlanta clubhouse the Braves' players gave him a standing ovation.



I heard that mentioned on a couple different radio stations this morning.

I have always thought that winning solves everything. Its easy to have a free and loose clubhouse when you are playing good baseball and winning. While I think chemistry and clubhouse environment is important, I do think it can be over rated. It is very rarely that you will hear of a clubhouse environment that is awful when a team is playing good baseball.

That said this is a scathing indictment of when the Braves were happy to see him go. To me it really shows that the Braves players had tired of his antics and the Braves brass were ok with replacing him with Alex Gonzales.

15fan
07-16-2010, 03:16 PM
In 15 years, I only remember 1 guy that everyone in Atlanta (fans, players, front office) was ready to move like Escobar and didn't really care what the return was: John Rocker.

I think the interesting thing is going to be what the Braves do when they find out that Gonzales's power doesn't translate well into the NL East parks. Turner Field is a pitchers park, as is Citi Field in NYC. Most years in FLA, Gonzales didn't put up big power numbers. (He hit 41 HRs in 2003-2004 during the tail end of the PED era.)

Right now, Glaus leads the team with 14 HRs, and Prado/Heyward are tied for 2nd with 11 each. McCann is the only other guy in double-digits with 10. Anything is an upgrade over Escobar (both on and off the field), but I'm not sold that Gonzales is the bat that makes the Braves a clear favorite in the NL. They still have horrifically anemic bats in the OF (McLouth and Melky Cabrera), and outside of Tim Hudson, the starters have all been fairly hittable. They've got a good bullpen though. The question will be whether or not Bobby Cox wears it out before the stretch run.

Chip R
07-16-2010, 04:36 PM
I heard that mentioned on a couple different radio stations this morning.

I have always thought that winning solves everything. Its easy to have a free and loose clubhouse when you are playing good baseball and winning. While I think chemistry and clubhouse environment is important, I do think it can be over rated. It is very rarely that you will hear of a clubhouse environment that is awful when a team is playing good baseball.

That said this is a scathing indictment of when the Braves were happy to see him go. To me it really shows that the Braves players had tired of his antics and the Braves brass were ok with replacing him with Alex Gonzales.


That's true. But, like you said, Escobar's presence didn't stop the Braves from winning.

15fan
08-03-2010, 05:02 PM
Thought this might be a good time for a bump.

Since acquiring Gonzalez, the Braves are 8-9. Gonzalez has OPS-ed .710 in 58 ABs as a Brave.

Meanwhile, Escobar has OPS-ed .782 in 67 ABs for the Blue Jays, who are 11-6 with Escobar.

From the Braves perspective, they had to deal Escobar because his head was so far up his rectum it wasn't funny. And whether he wears out his welcome in Toronto sooner rather than later is certainly a possibility.

But the reality has set in around here that Gonzalez at the plate isn't the answer to the team's offensive woes.

The lack of offense from Gonzalez is exacerbated by the fact that Martin Prado is now on the 15 day DL. Nate McLouth finally got shipped out to AAA because the Braves could no longer hide the fact that Nate McLouth is...Nate McLouth. Troy Glaus (http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/2010/08/02/how-long-can-braves-keep-extending-troy-glauss-lifeline/) is simply waiting for someone to come along and play Travis opposite his Old Yeller.

Melky Cabrera has warmed up lately, but at the end of the day, he has 2200+ career ABs and a .712 career OPS. Brian McCann is leading the team with an .850 OPS and 14 HRs. If you look at his splits over the last several years, he generally puts up his best numbers in July (getting 3-4 days off over the ASB has to benefit catchers as much as anyone), and then his numbers drop the last 2 months of the season as the pounding of being the every day catcher adds up.

The Braves need a couple of bats to get hot quickly, or pretty soon they will be looking up at the Phillies in the standings.

15fan
10-11-2010, 11:11 PM
Bump.

Anyone else see Gonzalez not run on the soft liner to SS that Renteria dropped?

3 more outs before the Bobby Cox era ends.

westofyou
10-11-2010, 11:17 PM
Bump.

Anyone else see Gonzalez not run on the soft liner to SS that Renteria dropped?

3 more outs before the Bobby Cox era ends.

Meh... Bobby is great the game needs more Bobby's and less robots

OnBaseMachine
10-12-2010, 12:17 AM
Meh... Bobby is great the game needs more Bobby's and less robots

Agreed. I'm going to miss Bobby Cox.

Topcat
10-12-2010, 06:00 AM
Meh... Bobby is great the game needs more Bobby's and less robots


I agree also Bobby Cox was an excellent Manager without the Larussa ego. His Body of work can never be denied.:beerme: