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mdccclxix
07-16-2010, 12:41 PM
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100715/SPT04/7160364/Bronson-Edinson-unnamed-persons


To activate Harang and put him right back in the rotation, the Reds would have to go with a six-man rotation or skip Wood or Leake.

"The longer (Harang's) out, the less sharp he's going to be," Baker said.

Harang said his back is no problem. He threw off a mound Wednesday.

"I'm ready to go," he said. "They haven't talked to me about when."

Baker said it's possible Harang will make a rehab start.

As the Reds have said a lot lately: It's better to have a surplus of starters than a shortage.

"Something always happens," Baker said. "We've got to go back to the drawing board. I talked to (pitching coach Bryan Price) and Walt (general manager Walt Jocketty) today.

"You know there's a lot of things that go into it. It's not always who's pitching the best. It's whose contract is what and who has options and various things. We'll make a decision shortly."

I don't know if they are trying to save face for when they send Wood down after his perfect game bid, or if they have soured this much on Harang that they'd publicly wonder aloud if he's their best option? Seems kind of strange to me. I tend to think it's more about the position Wood has put them in, he's made it hard to discount him. That's a credit to Travis because we're talking about the Opening Day starter for the last several years vs. him.

I'll bet Harang take that message to heart and pitches pretty well down the stretch. His "contract year" is really in effect now. We may see the best of what he can do.

Of course, all this could have to do with Harang's history of saying "I'm fine" when in reality he's tweaked a bit and goes out and gives up 6 runs in 3 innings. It will be interesting to see how things unfold, if not a bit concerning.

RedLegSuperStar
07-16-2010, 12:46 PM
I wonder if the give Harang a rehab assignment to allow Wood to start.. If not I could see them skip Leake

OnBaseMachine
07-16-2010, 12:50 PM
IMO, there's no way the Reds can send Travis Wood down after the way he's pitched so far. He deserves some more starts.

Redsfan320
07-16-2010, 12:52 PM
Yeah, I really hope Dusty/Walt can see that: BA, JC, ML, TW, & EV are the best rotation for this club, and then maybe Harang behind those 5. Although I'd probably prefer Maloney over him. Now, I wait for some of the stat people to show up and start saying how great Harang is.

320

Redsfan320
07-16-2010, 12:53 PM
"You know there's a lot of things that go into it. It's not always who's pitching the best. It's whose contract is what and who has options and various things. We'll make a decision shortly."

I heard when Dusty something to the effect of this in the postgame interview after one of the games in Philly. I thought at the time "Oh no, that means Harang will be back instead of someone else". I still think that if he's healthy he'll be back in the rotation no matter what. :cry: :bang:

320

LawFive
07-16-2010, 01:16 PM
Harang's the vet. No doubt he starts, if Dusty gets his way. Whether or not Walt will override Dusty is the only issue here.

PuffyPig
07-16-2010, 01:24 PM
Although I'd probably prefer Maloney over him. Now, I wait for some of the stat people to show up and start saying how great Harang is.

320

I don't think you need to be a stat guy to understand that Harang gives you a better chance to win than Maloney.

Strikes Out Looking
07-16-2010, 01:28 PM
I think you first have him make a rehab start, which puts of the decision for five days.

HotCorner
07-16-2010, 01:29 PM
I'm still not sure why Maloney is still up here. In essence, EV would take his spot. Send him down and promote either Burton or Sutton to give the bench some flexibility.

HotCorner
07-16-2010, 01:31 PM
I wonder if Walt is trying to find a new home for Harang thus the delay

// throwing darts to see if one hits

camisadelgolf
07-16-2010, 01:35 PM
What about a deal centered around Harang for Chin-lung Hu? Going into 2011, it would mean that Paul Janish and Zack Cozart wouldn't be the only options as the team's starting shortstop if Cabrera's option isn't picked up (and I hope it isn't). Not only that, but it could potentially give the Reds tons of salary relief--depending on how much salary Los Angeles would require the Reds to pick up--which could go toward the raises due to Votto, Cueto, Bruce, etc.

lollipopcurve
07-16-2010, 01:36 PM
I wonder if Walt is trying to find a new home for Harang thus the delay

I'm sure he is. If Harang comes right back into the rotation, it could be because an interested team (San Diego?) wants to see him at the major league level.

redsmetz
07-16-2010, 01:37 PM
I heard when Dusty something to the effect of this in the postgame interview after one of the games in Philly. I thought at the time "Oh no, that means Harang will be back instead of someone else". I still think that if he's healthy he'll be back in the rotation no matter what. :cry: :bang:

320


Harang's the vet. No doubt he starts, if Dusty gets his way. Whether or not Walt will override Dusty is the only issue here.

Is it at all surprising that they're facing this? This is true of every other single club in baseball too. These are, at times, complicated decisions that aren't simple black and white matters. Perhaps they club does want to move Harang. Removing him from the rotation diminishes his value. A rehab start buys time. As someone else noted, the youngsters are making the decision harder too.

And I grow tired of the continued imagined "vet love" every time something like this comes along. Baker has been incredible overall with regards to playing the young guys and juggling them in the line-up and the rotation (with a couple of exceptions).

guttle11
07-16-2010, 01:39 PM
I'm still not sure why Maloney is still up here. In essence, EV would take his spot. Send him down and promote either Burton or Sutton to give the bench some flexibility.

You don't want to promote those guys for a day because it would be 10 days before they could return. A lot can happen in 10 days. Keeping Maloney on the roster for tonight is the way to go. If for some reason Arroyo only pitches an inning or two, or the game goes extras, you can burn Maloney's arm for 5 or 6 innings if needed and not mess up the newly fresh bullpen.

Send Maloney down tomorrow and if needed it will be a lot easier to cover the 10 days with all the rotation options than dipping down to get another bullpen arm or bench player.

membengal
07-16-2010, 01:43 PM
Harang's the vet. No doubt he starts, if Dusty gets his way. Whether or not Walt will override Dusty is the only issue here.

I don't hang this on Dusty. I got the firm impression he was, if possible, even MORE impressed with what Wood did in Philly and his two starts before that than we were on this board.

I think Dusty knows that he may have to call on Harang because Harang's contract dictates it. Dusty's hands are tied.

dougdirt
07-16-2010, 01:45 PM
Aaron Harang has posted this line since his last start in April:

G IP H BB SO HR ERA
13 78.2 89 22 60 9 4.12

That isn't a guy you don't try to figure a way to get into your rotation. He had two bad games in April that are still killing his overall numbes, but the guy has been a good #3 starter in every game outside of those two.

Now, does that make him one of the 5 best options? That I don't know, but lets not pretend that Harang goes out there and doesn't pitch well. He does and has been for almost the entire season.

Redsfan320
07-16-2010, 01:46 PM
My saying that Harang should be the 6th man has some legitimate argument for it. My saying that Maloney should be over Harang probably doesn't have any argument statistically, and yet I still firmly believe it. Anyone else?

320

nemesis
07-16-2010, 01:50 PM
As odd as it sounds, the Reds could be sellers at the deadline. Harang could be a movable peace. With Arroyo, Cueto, Volquez, Leake and Wood in the Rotation until Bailey comes back and Maloney for insurance.

Harang may not have to much positive value, but he might have enough to someone if the Reds pick up the remained of this year and leave the Option/Buyout up to the respective club.

With so many teams in the race, someone could be interested.

Yankees
White Sox
Twins
Detroit
Angels
Mets
Dodgers

All could be suitors. Mets, Tigers, Twins and Pale Hosers would be ideal suitors.
Dream trade would be...

Harang, Francisco, Bailey and Cash traded to Detroit for Porcello and Fien. I'd be all about letting the two young pitchers (Porcello, Bailey)get fresh starts. Porcello is a GB machine and would be a fit in GABP. Fien has a solid track record in the Minors and could be another useful addition to the bullpen.

Ghosts of 1990
07-16-2010, 01:52 PM
"It's whose contract is what (It's not always who is pitching best)"

Beautiful, Dusty.

Spoken like an organization who hasn't tasted the playoffs in a decade and a half.

dougdirt
07-16-2010, 01:53 PM
"It's whose contract is what (It's not always who is pitching best)"

Beautiful, Dusty.

Spoken like an organization who hasn't tasted the playoffs in a decade and a half.

While it sounds bad, and you are right.... there is a legitimate argument that Harang is one of the teams 5 best starters right now. I just wish Dusty would have said that instead of what he actually said.

Brutus
07-16-2010, 01:53 PM
"It's whose contract is what (It's not always who is pitching best)"

Beautiful, Dusty.

Spoken like an organization who hasn't tasted the playoffs in a decade and a half.

He's right, though. This is also a business. Unfortunately, the business of the sport plays as much a part as ability. Guys with no options, $10+ million contracts and no landing spots for them tend to occupy spots on the roster that, all things being equal, they would not.

LawFive
07-16-2010, 01:56 PM
And I grow tired of the continued imagined "vet love" every time something like this comes along. Baker has been incredible overall with regards to playing the young guys and juggling them in the line-up and the rotation (with a couple of exceptions).

The thing is, it's not imagined.

Batting G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

Cabrera 85 347 41 85 20 0 3 31 19 41 10 1 .245 .283 .329 .612
Janish 30 54 7 16 3 0 2 9 8 7 0 1 .296 .397 .463 .860

I can't seem to find a Games Started stat quickly, but by looking at the AB's on Heisey's game log he appears to have started approximately 11 games since his callup on May 1. This while Stubbs was floundering around .200 and Bruce had his share of struggles too.

cumberlandreds
07-16-2010, 01:57 PM
My prediction of what's going to happen is that Harang will make a rehab start in Louisville. Wood will take his turn and if he pitches anything less than 8 perfect innings he will be going back to AAA and Harang will be back in the rotation. If Wood does pitch 8 or more perect innings then Harang will make another rehab start and Wood will have pitch another 8 inning perfect game to stay in Cincy. I could go on and on but you get the idea of what's going to happen.

camisadelgolf
07-16-2010, 01:57 PM
I've been giving this some thought, and the Phillies might be perfect trade partners. They're looking for a starter to enter the middle of their rotation, and the Reds are looking for a middle reliever. Neither team wants to add salary, but the Phillies have plenty of overpaid relievers that could be attractive.

J.C. Romero - 4.25mm salary - I don't like the guy, but if Arthur Rhodes is going to continue to be used as a setup man instead of a loogy, he could be just what the bullpen needs; one roadblock could be his no-trade clause

Jose Contreras - 1.5mm salary - transition to the bullpen has been a success; won't be intimidated by post-season play

Chad Durbin - 2.125mm salary - would be extremely difficult to pry away from the Phillies; occasionally has command issues, but has been one of the better relievers in the league over the past few years

Ryan Madson - 4.5mm + bonuses - is due 4.5mm plus performance bonuses in 2011; only 29 years old; may be seen as Philly's closer in waiting, and with Lidge struggling, they'd probably be very reluctant to deal him

Danys Baez - 2.5mm - is due 2.75mm in 2011; a pitch-to-contact reliever, has struggled a little this year

redsmetz
07-16-2010, 02:00 PM
The thing is, it's not imagined.

Batting G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

Cabrera 85 347 41 85 20 0 3 31 19 41 10 1 .245 .283 .329 .612
Janish 30 54 7 16 3 0 2 9 8 7 0 1 .296 .397 .463 .860

I can't seem to find a Games Started stat quickly, but by looking at the AB's on Heisey's game log he appears to have started approximately 11 games since his callup on May 1. This while Stubbs was floundering around .200 and Bruce had his share of struggles too.

While I didn't mention him, Janish is one of the exceptions, although Cabrera was clearly brought in to be the started, so Baker's basically going with what the front office has chosen as their path. Dickerson could be another, when he's healthy, and I've finally come to the conclusion that it's fair to question whether Dickerson can be healthy. Everywhere else, Dusty Baker has run with the young guys, particularly this year. And great debate continues over whether Janish should be playing over Cabrera, hence the long threads with much discussion.

One example (or even two) doesn't bear out the alleged "vet love" many here assume of DB.

camisadelgolf
07-16-2010, 02:04 PM
Phillies get: Aaron Harang, Carlos Fisher, and Henry Rodriguez
Reds get: Ryan Madson and Cody Overbeck

kaldaniels
07-16-2010, 02:12 PM
Aaron Harang has posted this line since his last start in April:

G IP H BB SO HR ERA
13 78.2 89 22 60 9 4.12

That isn't a guy you don't try to figure a way to get into your rotation. He had two bad games in April that are still killing his overall numbes, but the guy has been a good #3 starter in every game outside of those two.

Now, does that make him one of the 5 best options? That I don't know, but lets not pretend that Harang goes out there and doesn't pitch well. He does and has been for almost the entire season.

Agree completely. Coming from the same perspective though, Mike Leake has a 5.00+ ERA since the 1st of June. I'm fine with giving Leake some time off (not completely just ease up on the amount of his starts, with adequate throwing in between).

kaldaniels
07-16-2010, 02:13 PM
My prediction of what's going to happen is that Harang will make a rehab start in Louisville. Wood will take his turn and if he pitches anything less than 8 perfect innings he will be going back to AAA and Harang will be back in the rotation. If Wood does pitch 8 or more perect innings then Harang will make another rehab start and Wood will have pitch another 8 inning perfect game to stay in Cincy. I could go on and on but you get the idea of what's going to happen.

Sounds fair to me. It's all just up to Wood to go out and perform. :D

Falls City Beer
07-16-2010, 02:19 PM
One of these rookies is going to go to pieces at some point. Harang should get that pitcher's starts.

Falls City Beer
07-16-2010, 02:20 PM
"It's whose contract is what (It's not always who is pitching best)"

Beautiful, Dusty.

Spoken like an organization who hasn't tasted the playoffs in a decade and a half.

I think he's being honest. After all, the money stuff isn't his decision.

Will M
07-16-2010, 02:22 PM
I suspect Walt would love to move Harang to free up money to plug holes elsewhere. I'm sure Walt didn't say "Russ Springer will put us over the top". Bob said "you don't get any more money to play with". therefore Russ was in the Reds budget.

bucksfan2
07-16-2010, 02:28 PM
My prediction of what's going to happen is that Harang will make a rehab start in Louisville. Wood will take his turn and if he pitches anything less than 8 perfect innings he will be going back to AAA and Harang will be back in the rotation. If Wood does pitch 8 or more perect innings then Harang will make another rehab start and Wood will have pitch another 8 inning perfect game to stay in Cincy. I could go on and on but you get the idea of what's going to happen.

Wood has pitched well, better than expected well, in his first couple of starts. I don't expect him to keep pitching at that level because at some point the league is going to catch up to him. However I think he add something that the Reds don't currently have in a left handed starter, as well as a guy who has a high upside.

If the Reds decide that Harang gives them a better chance to win, I would disagree, but I really couldn't argue with that assessment. I don't think Wood is going to pitch lights out for the rest of the season but I think he has higher potential. I think Harang is going to give you what he has since the beginning of may. That is league average pitching going 6-7 innings deep. He isn't the guy I would want to pitch in a must win situation and with the current depth the Reds have isn't someone I want considered anywhere outside of a 4-5 starter.

bucksfan2
07-16-2010, 02:30 PM
"It's whose contract is what (It's not always who is pitching best)"

Beautiful, Dusty.

Spoken like an organization who hasn't tasted the playoffs in a decade and a half.

Its being understood that Harang is getting the nod because the $ of his contract. In reality Dusty could also mean that a guy like Wood or Maloney's contract have options in them.

11larkin11
07-16-2010, 04:45 PM
At this point, I think the best move might to DL Leake (right shoulder strain, or whatever Lincoln always goes to the DL with), and let Wood eat up his innings. In September, you make a decision whehter Wood will help the team in the home stretch or Leake off the DL would. That way, Leake can pitch and up his innings in August on a month long rehab stint, so he can still reach his mark and not be rusty in September if Wood doesn't run away with it.

fearofpopvol1
07-16-2010, 04:46 PM
I've been giving this some thought, and the Phillies might be perfect trade partners. They're looking for a starter to enter the middle of their rotation, and the Reds are looking for a middle reliever. Neither team wants to add salary, but the Phillies have plenty of overpaid relievers that could be attractive.

J.C. Romero - 4.25mm salary - I don't like the guy, but if Arthur Rhodes is going to continue to be used as a setup man instead of a loogy, he could be just what the bullpen needs; one roadblock could be his no-trade clause

Jose Contreras - 1.5mm salary - transition to the bullpen has been a success; won't be intimidated by post-season play

Chad Durbin - 2.125mm salary - would be extremely difficult to pry away from the Phillies; occasionally has command issues, but has been one of the better relievers in the league over the past few years

Ryan Madson - 4.5mm + bonuses - is due 4.5mm plus performance bonuses in 2011; only 29 years old; may be seen as Philly's closer in waiting, and with Lidge struggling, they'd probably be very reluctant to deal him

Danys Baez - 2.5mm - is due 2.75mm in 2011; a pitch-to-contact reliever, has struggled a little this year

I want Contreras...that guy is filthy out of the pen.

I think the Reds want Harang to go on a rehab start so other teams can scout him while Walt tries to work up a trade while not disrupting the current rotation.

The big wildcard here for me is Volquez. Is he going to provide better production than Harang will in the rotation for the rest of the year? If so, then by all means, trading Harang makes sense. If he's not, then Volquez should head to the pen for the remainder of the year.

mdccclxix
07-16-2010, 05:05 PM
johnfayman

#Reds rotation: Wood Sunday, Cueto Monday, Leake Tuesday. 32 minutes ago via Twittelator

There's our answer. I guess they want to see what the kid's got. Congrats Wood!

camisadelgolf
07-16-2010, 05:26 PM
I just recalled something about Harang's contract. If he's traded, his option escalates to $14mm and becomes mutual. In other words, if traded, he would have to be paired with a lot of money, and the receiving team would have to have plans for him next season, too.

If any of you had your hopes up about trading Harang, forget about it. He's glued to Cincinnati for the duration of his contract.

pedro
07-16-2010, 05:29 PM
I just recalled something about Harang's contract. If he's traded, his option escalates to $14mm and becomes mutual. In other words, if traded, he would have to be paired with a lot of money, and the receiving team would have to have plans for him next season, too.

If any of you had your hopes up about trading Harang, forget about it. He's glued to Cincinnati for the duration of his contract.

All that Mutual Option means that the team can't exercise it unilaterally. As any team that traded for Harang wouldn't likely want to exercise his option I don;t think that's a big deal.

Homer Bailey
07-16-2010, 05:30 PM
I just recalled something about Harang's contract. If he's traded, his option escalates to $14mm and becomes mutual. In other words, if traded, he would have to be paired with a lot of money, and the receiving team would have to have plans for him next season, too.

If any of you had your hopes up about trading Harang, forget about it. He's glued to Cincinnati for the duration of his contract.

That doesn't really hurt his value. No team is going to exercise their side of that option.

redsmetz
07-16-2010, 05:35 PM
Here's what Cot's says about Harang's contract:

# 2011 option increases to $13M with 210 IP in 2010
# if traded, 2011 option becomes mutual option at $14M ($2.5M buyout)

kaldaniels
07-16-2010, 05:45 PM
Here's what Cot's says about Harang's contract:

# 2011 option increases to $13M with 210 IP in 2010
# if traded, 2011 option becomes mutual option at $14M ($2.5M buyout)

I've never understood the point of a mutual option...enlighten me.

PuffyPig
07-16-2010, 05:46 PM
That doesn't really hurt his value. No team is going to exercise their side of that option.

Mutual option likely means either side can exercise it.

camisadelgolf
07-16-2010, 05:47 PM
All that Mutual Option means that the team can't exercise it unilaterally. As any team that traded for Harang wouldn't likely want to exercise his option I don;t think that's a big deal.
:bang:
That was a horrible post on my part. I've corrected people on what a mutual option is multiple times, and this time, I misinterpreted for myself. I guess having to repeat myself so many times caused me to doubt myself.

Anyway, a correction: Harang is very tradeable.

Homer Bailey
07-16-2010, 06:10 PM
Mutual option likely means either side can exercise it.

It means BOTH sides must exercise it.

camisadelgolf
07-16-2010, 06:12 PM
It means BOTH sides must exercise it.
Yes. There are already names for when only one party must exercise it (team and player options).

nemesis
07-16-2010, 06:25 PM
Not to try and Hijack this thread, but I wonder if the Astros would be willing to move Brett Myers. He has quietly had an outstanding season. Still Just 29, he could be a excellent buy at the deadline. Houston needs bats, we have a few to offer.

He is a workhorse starter and was a decent closer his one year in the role.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/stats/individual_stats_player.jsp?c_id=hou&playerID=408206

TRF
07-16-2010, 09:01 PM
Maloney's last 5 starts as a Red, dating back to Sept. 8 of last year.

28.2 IP 9 ER 3 BB's 13 K's

Tony Cloninger
07-16-2010, 09:25 PM
Since when is Stubbs a vet.....and I do not or would not call Bruce a vet either.

Scrap Irony
07-16-2010, 09:56 PM
Since when is Stubbs a vet.....and I do not or would not call Bruce a vet either.

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

Germans?

Forget it. He's rolling.

Dusty and vet love are like... well, Dusty and young pitcher destruction.

Sounds like it ought to be true, so people just find ways to pound square pegs into round holes.

RedEye
07-16-2010, 11:11 PM
The thing is, it's not imagined.

Batting G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS

Cabrera 85 347 41 85 20 0 3 31 19 41 10 1 .245 .283 .329 .612
Janish 30 54 7 16 3 0 2 9 8 7 0 1 .296 .397 .463 .860

I can't seem to find a Games Started stat quickly, but by looking at the AB's on Heisey's game log he appears to have started approximately 11 games since his callup on May 1. This while Stubbs was floundering around .200 and Bruce had his share of struggles too.

Cabrera is certainly a vet starting over a youngster, but Bruce and Stubbs don't really qualify as evidence here. In this case, Dusty was playing two young guys over a young guy. I actually think he deserves some credit for running Stubbs out there everyday, even when he is "floundering." Now, if you want to make the argument about Gomes starting over Heisey, maybe you have a point...

reds1869
07-16-2010, 11:23 PM
Janish is no spring chicken. It isn't like he is some 22 year old phenom; the guy is 27 and swings a weak stick. His glove is brilliant and I would give him more PT. But I also won't complain too loudly about OCab as he isn't exactly blocking Hanley Ramirez from more ABs.

As RedEye said, give Dusty all the credit in the world for sticking by Stubbs. He is the future and I think he shows flashes more and more frequently.

fearofpopvol1
07-17-2010, 12:32 AM
Maloney's last 5 starts as a Red, dating back to Sept. 8 of last year.

28.2 IP 9 ER 3 BB's 13 K's

He's not a good option. He's been very lucky. I saw the guy pitch in NY. He's a flyball machine. I think if he went to the west coast he could be serviceable for another team however.

REDblooded
07-17-2010, 01:39 AM
I've LOOOOONG said that the worst thing that has happened to the Reds in the past 10 years, was back in 07 (i think... not looking it up) when they were in the hunt, made the Majewski/Bray trade, and hung onto Harang instead of moving him when he would've been one of the top available arms... that ONE non-deal has set this franchise back more than any in the past 5-10 seasons... Had they not gone for broke, they probably move harang, get a decent return, and finish with a worse record than Atlanta and end up with Hayward (who they were high on) in the draft...

nemesis
07-17-2010, 05:11 AM
I've LOOOOONG said that the worst thing that has happened to the Reds in the past 10 years, was back in 07 (i think... not looking it up) when they were in the hunt, made the Majewski/Bray trade, and hung onto Harang instead of moving him when he would've been one of the top available arms... that ONE non-deal has set this franchise back more than any in the past 5-10 seasons... Had they not gone for broke, they probably move harang, get a decent return, and finish with a worse record than Atlanta and end up with Hayward (who they were high on) in the draft...

Eh. Maybe, They got Devin Mesoraco who could in the end be a more valuable pick. It takes 10 years after a draft to really know what you got.

GAC
07-17-2010, 06:36 AM
Man! To be in this position, as far as the starting rotation goes, and have all these options of potentially 7 pitchers and 5 rotation spots. When's the last time you saw that with the Reds?

You're leading in a tight division race with a good shot at the post-season in 11 years, so you want to put your best 5 man rotation out there. But there are also other considerations to take account of.....

- How well is Volquez going to perform now that he's returned? Do you bring him back slowly, limit his pitch count?
- Will Leake start to show some fatigue in the 2nd half being a rookie? He's projected to throw almost 200 innings in his rookie season.
- Travis Wood, from what I've seen so far of this kid, has to stay in this rotation.

Maloney is the odd-man out once Harang returns. Why not use Harang like we do that 5th OFer, to bring Volquez around slowly and keep the pressure (and innings off the arm) of kids like Leake and Wood?

I think we all also know (including Aaron) that after this season he's gone. It would be nice if a trade could be worked out prior to the trading deadline with Aaron, even possibly where they Reds take on a portion of his remaining salary for the year, clear up that roster spot, and maybe get something, even minimal, in return.

But while Harang is here, and deemed healthy, he's going to be utilized somehow/someway. That's a given.

mth123
07-17-2010, 09:37 AM
I think dealing Harang makes sense. The rotation filled with kids is worrisome and another vet would be nice, but I'd like it to be a real upgrade and the team needs to move some cash to pursue one. Getting out from under the buy-out would help 2011 as well. The Budget is still going to be strained next season as Arb raises for Votto, Cueto and Bruce kick in along with Phillips established increase. A rehab start to show he's healthy might be the thing needed to get a deal done.

I still think the White Sox are a match. They have Buerhle and Danks to cover the top end, but Peavy's injury means they need another vet to eat some innings. JJ Putz would look good in the Reds pen and the Sox have Pena and Santos ready for bigger roles in Chicago.

Harang for Putz would be a good deal for both teams IMO.

nemesis
07-17-2010, 09:56 AM
Harang for Putz would be a good deal for both teams IMO.

That would be a good trade. Putz could be a quality set up guy who you could switch to closer if Cordero continues to have issues. I mean come on who didn't think he was going to blow it last night in the back of your mind?

Marc D
07-17-2010, 10:50 AM
I don't know a lot about the Mets except that its been said they are in a payroll squeeze due to the owners finances but they are reported buyers. How about;

Harang to Mets
A Pagan and Bobby Parnell to Reds

Reds pay the rest of Harangs 2010 salary. Mets take care of the two guys they send this way and then are on the hook for Harang in '11?

That's a pretty well thought of young BP arm for nothing more than money if they'd do it. Not sure how you fit Pagan in to the mix but a high OBP OF piece to work with wouldn't be terrible. I'd almost do that for Parnell but I don't know enough about him to say for sure.

If that wouldn't work I'd personally stay along those lines with any team looking for SP. We'll trade Harang, and a salary we had already planned to pay, for talent. I'd target a Parnell-like young, cheap, under club control BP arm or a high upside but not near MLB ready prospect of any persuasion.

Maybe I'm over valuing Harang but in general that seems the best way to get some value out of him as it sits right now. Pay his salary and get some young talent in return, even if its just a role player/set up man.

nate
07-17-2010, 11:07 AM
I don't know a lot about the Mets except that its been said they are in a payroll squeeze due to the owners finances but they are reported buyers. How about;

Harang to Mets
A Pagan and Bobby Parnell to Reds

Reds pay the rest of Harangs 2010 salary. Mets take care of the two guys they send this way and then are on the hook for Harang in '11?

That's a pretty well thought of young BP arm for nothing more than money if they'd do it. Not sure how you fit Pagan in to the mix but a high OBP OF piece to work with wouldn't be terrible. I'd almost do that for Parnell but I don't know enough about him to say for sure.

If that wouldn't work I'd personally stay along those lines with any team looking for SP. We'll trade Harang, and a salary we had already planned to pay, for talent. I'd target a Parnell-like young, cheap, under club control BP arm or a high upside but not near MLB ready prospect of any persuasion.

Maybe I'm over valuing Harang but in general that seems the best way to get some value out of him as it sits right now. Pay his salary and get some young talent in return, even if its just a role player/set up man.

Pagan would be awesome. He's kind of an odd-man out in the Mets OF with Beltran off the DL.

Brutus
07-17-2010, 11:13 AM
I'm not sure why everyone spends time discussing a trade of Aaron Harang. The Reds, reportedly, have been trying that for over two years. Teams don't seem to have any interest in him at that salary. I don't think the Reds could give him away, unless they're willing to pay a significant chunk of that money.

Marc D
07-17-2010, 11:23 AM
I'm not sure why everyone spends time discussing a trade of Aaron Harang. The Reds, reportedly, have been trying that for over two years. Teams don't seem to have any interest in him at that salary. I don't think the Reds could give him away, unless they're willing to pay a significant chunk of that money.


I thought that paying his 2010 salary would do that but then I looked at his contract on Cots. If traded he gets a mutual option (2.5M buyout) on 14MM salary. Not sure how mutual options work exactly but it would seem that if both parties aren't in agreement (no way anyone pays him 14MM next year) then they have to give him a 2.5MM buy out, no?

So in essence wouldn't my scenario result in another team getting Harang for 2.5MM?

Brutus
07-17-2010, 11:31 AM
I thought that paying his 2010 salary would do that but then I looked at his contract on Cots. If traded he gets a mutual option (2.5M buyout) on 14MM salary. Not sure how mutual options work exactly but it would seem that if both parties aren't in agreement (no way anyone pays him 14MM next year) then they have to give him a 2.5MM buy out, no?

So in essence wouldn't my scenario result in another team getting Harang for 2.5MM?

That is correct. If either party does not exercise the option, he would be due a $2.5 million buyout. So as you said, even if the Reds sprung for the prorated portion of his 2010 salary (probably close to $5 mil), a team would still have to pay him $2.5 million next year if they didn't keep him.

_Sir_Charles_
07-17-2010, 11:36 AM
Janish is no spring chicken. It isn't like he is some 22 year old phenom; the guy is 27 and swings a weak stick. His glove is brilliant and I would give him more PT. But I also won't complain too loudly about OCab as he isn't exactly blocking Hanley Ramirez from more ABs.

As RedEye said, give Dusty all the credit in the world for sticking by Stubbs. He is the future and I think he shows flashes more and more frequently.

The bolded part is the part I'm not sure I agree with. He didn't swing a weak stick last year when he made contact (although he struggled with that rather mightily in the second half), nor during spring training or thus far this season. It seems once a guy garners a certain reputation he's stuck with it no matter what and improvements are pretty much impossible. I don't think it's fair to lump a player in with "others" because of what THEY did. Thus far, he's show that he can hit and he's hitting it solidly. We know what he can do with the glove already. I think we leave it at that and give the kid some playing time. But that's just me.

~edit~ sorry, just noticed the thread name. Didn't mean to sidetrack the Harang discussion.

Marc D
07-17-2010, 11:42 AM
That is correct. If either party does not exercise the option, he would be due a $2.5 million buyout. So as you said, even if the Reds sprung for the prorated portion of his 2010 salary (probably close to $5 mil), a team would still have to pay him $2.5 million next year if they didn't keep him.


Which is exactly what a team would have to pay Brett Meyers, who's name I see often tossed about, next year if they didn't want to pay him 8MM plus the prorated remainder of his 3.1MM deal in 2010 plus give the Astros talent in return or some combination thereof.

Not exact but as a rough comp I'd say you could at least make a reasonable sales pitch to teams using Myers and Harang.

PuffyPig
07-17-2010, 11:59 AM
That is correct. If either party does not exercise the option, he would be due a $2.5 million buyout. So as you said, even if the Reds sprung for the prorated portion of his 2010 salary (probably close to $5 mil), a team would still have to pay him $2.5 million next year if they didn't keep him.

The mutual option could just as easily be that either side can exercise it. Since it kicked in if Harang was traded, you can assume that the changing of the option from a club option to a mutual option that the change favoured Harang.

Brutus
07-17-2010, 12:05 PM
The mutual option could just as easily be that either side can exercise it. Since it kicked in if Harang was traded, you can assume that the changing of the option from a club option to a mutual option that the change favoured Harang.

No. Mutual options need the consent of both parties to be exercised, hence the term. That's spelled out in the CBA specifically. It's can't be one or the other - it has to be both.

The rationale behind making it a mutual option is to give Harang a chance to decline it if the team he goes to wants to exercise it and he doesn't want to go there.

camisadelgolf
07-17-2010, 12:20 PM
He's not a good option. He's been very lucky. I saw the guy pitch in NY. He's a flyball machine. I think if he went to the west coast he could be serviceable for another team however.
That was true a couple years ago, but ever since he learned a sinker, he's inducing more groundballs.
2010 - 46.2
2009 - 43.0
2008 - 41.3

VR
07-17-2010, 01:07 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/03/are-mutual-options-baseballs-new-fad.html

Nice little blurb on the trend of more mutual options.

fearofpopvol1
07-17-2010, 01:08 PM
That was true a couple years ago, but ever since he learned a sinker, he's inducing more groundballs.
2010 - 46.2
2009 - 43.0
2008 - 41.3

His K rate is likely to be poor at The Show and while he has good control, his stuff is average at best. Simply put, he's just not 1 of the 5 best pitchers the Reds have. Not even top 7 IMO.

mth123
07-17-2010, 04:33 PM
I'm not sure why everyone spends time discussing a trade of Aaron Harang. The Reds, reportedly, have been trying that for over two years. Teams don't seem to have any interest in him at that salary. I don't think the Reds could give him away, unless they're willing to pay a significant chunk of that money.

Conditions are different now. Its the deadline of his final year under contract. They couldn't unload Griffey for years either, but when the future obligations were gone, they were able to unload him (and got Nick Masset). I think lots of teams in the race would pay the remainder of Harang's deal to upgrade the 5th spot in the rotation. He does little to the budget beyond 2010 and many teams don't have the young players to get a better guy. I'd say that Harang with no 2011 deal in place might be more attractive than a better guy like Oswalt to some teams because Oswalt has a $16 Million deal in 2011.

Hoosier Red
07-17-2010, 05:28 PM
No. Mutual options need the consent of both parties to be exercised, hence the term. That's spelled out in the CBA specifically. It's can't be one or the other - it has to be both.

The rationale behind making it a mutual option is to give Harang a chance to decline it if the team he goes to wants to exercise it and he doesn't want to go there.

Plus it's an extra 1/2 mill. Not bad for being traded for two months.

Hoosier Red
07-17-2010, 05:29 PM
A crazy idea, if the Reds release him, and he clears waivers(which he may not.) Do the Reds still have to pay his buyout? He'd no longer be under contract at the end of the year?

Actually putting him on waivers after August 1 might be the best way to get a deal.

mth123
07-17-2010, 05:35 PM
A crazy idea, if the Reds release him, and he clears waivers(which he may not.) Do the Reds still have to pay his buyout? He'd no longer be under contract at the end of the year?

Actually putting him on waivers after August 1 might be the best way to get a deal.

They would have to pay the buy-out since releasing him would in effect be declining his option. I think Waivers with some other team making a claim and the Reds saying OK is a real possibility.

A team that has a contract at another spot that the Reds could use might be even more likely. Pricey relievers might be the best match at this point.

Danny Serafini
07-17-2010, 05:43 PM
Assuming he cleared waivers, was released and then another team picked him up, the Reds wouldn't have to pay the buyout because they'd be paying his entire 2011 salary, minus a prorated Major League minimum for the remainder of 2010 and all of 2011, which would be paid by the team that picks him up. The contract doesn't just go away when a player is released, Harang is going to get paid his money. The team picking him up only has to pay him the minimum, the Reds would be stuck with the rest. The team picking him up certainly isn't going to pay a $2 million buyout on a player that would only cost them $400,000 in salary, it makes no financial sense. They'd leave him on the roster and let the Reds pay the tab. If the Reds don't want him around in 2011 and can't trade him it would be much cheaper to just leave him on the roster for the rest of this year and then pay the buyout.

mth123
07-17-2010, 05:49 PM
Assuming he cleared waivers, was released and then another team picked him up, the Reds wouldn't have to pay the buyout because they'd be paying his entire 2011 salary, minus a prorated Major League minimum for the remainder of 2010 and all of 2011, which would be paid by the team that picks him up. The contract doesn't just go away when a player is released, Harang is going to get paid his money. The team picking him up only has to pay him the minimum, the Reds would be stuck with the rest. The team picking him up certainly isn't going to pay a $2 million buyout on a player that would only cost them $400,000 in salary, it makes no financial sense. They'd leave him on the roster and let the Reds pay the tab. If the Reds don't want him around in 2011 and can't trade him it would be much cheaper to just leave him on the roster for the rest of this year and then pay the buyout.

If the Reds release him and decline the option and pay the buy-out another team that picks him up can't choose to exercise it and put the Reds on the hook. That option would have already been declined and bought out. The other team would need to work out its own deal, but you're right, they wouldn't have to pay the buy-out.

Releasing him makes no sense anyway. Letting him get claimed to get out form under maybe. Dealing him and paying some salary or taking some back, even keeping him around on a rehab and as a September roster guy make more sense.

I see where Fay posted that he's been shut back down for a couple days with more back pain.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/07/17/volquez-pitch-countharang-update/

Danny Serafini
07-17-2010, 06:42 PM
If the Reds release him and decline the option and pay the buy-out another team that picks him up can't choose to exercise it and put the Reds on the hook. That option would have already been declined and bought out. The other team would need to work out its own deal, but you're right, they wouldn't have to pay the buy-out.

If the Reds release him they can't buy him out because they no longer control the contract. It would be up to the team that picks him up. Releasing him and buying him out aren't the same thing. The buyout only covers 2011, they can't buy him out today and end his 2010 contract. If a team picks him up in 2010 that contract is still valid, and that team decides on the buyout, and there's almost no chance they would buy him out.

Brutus
07-17-2010, 06:46 PM
Conditions are different now. Its the deadline of his final year under contract. They couldn't unload Griffey for years either, but when the future obligations were gone, they were able to unload him (and got Nick Masset). I think lots of teams in the race would pay the remainder of Harang's deal to upgrade the 5th spot in the rotation. He does little to the budget beyond 2010 and many teams don't have the young players to get a better guy. I'd say that Harang with no 2011 deal in place might be more attractive than a better guy like Oswalt to some teams because Oswalt has a $16 Million deal in 2011.

I'll grant you that it's more possible now than before, though in your example about Griffey... Ken Williams simply had a lot of 'fan' in him on that move (as I think most of us can relate when it comes to Griffey).

Players that don't have value to other clubs, regardless of the length on their contracts, simply aren't trade-worthy. Harang does not seem to have much in the way of trade value. Heck for all the amount of talk here about how he's not very good... you think any GM wants to trade for him by giving up any talent in return? Simple fact is the Reds will not get more than a bag of baseballs for him and that's only if they pay for those baseballs.

kaldaniels
07-17-2010, 06:56 PM
If the Reds release him they can't buy him out because they no longer control the contract. It would be up to the team that picks him up. Releasing him and buying him out aren't the same thing. The buyout only covers 2011, they can't buy him out today and end his 2010 contract. If a team picks him up in 2010 that contract is still valid, and that team decides on the buyout, and there's almost no chance they would buy him out.

Something doesn't jive with that. If that was the case teams would just release guys a few days before seasons end to avoid paying the buyout. Either that, or it would be overturned by a union greivance or something to that effect.

Or are you assuming that another team would pick him up?

Simply put, it won't happen.

Brutus
07-17-2010, 07:01 PM
If the Reds release him they can't buy him out because they no longer control the contract. It would be up to the team that picks him up. Releasing him and buying him out aren't the same thing. The buyout only covers 2011, they can't buy him out today and end his 2010 contract. If a team picks him up in 2010 that contract is still valid, and that team decides on the buyout, and there's almost no chance they would buy him out.

His point was the Reds could release him now and simply pay the guaranteed money left on the contract (which would include the buyout).

And for the record, if the Reds release Harang and he were not picked up on a waiver claim, the option would no longer exist. Any team signing him would be doing so paying the prorated portion for league minimum this year while the Reds spring for the rest. Then it's up to the club to negotiate a new deal for Harang (assuming they don't commit to anything beyond this season).

mth123
07-17-2010, 08:02 PM
I'll grant you that it's more possible now than before, though in your example about Griffey... Ken Williams simply had a lot of 'fan' in him on that move (as I think most of us can relate when it comes to Griffey).

Players that don't have value to other clubs, regardless of the length on their contracts, simply aren't trade-worthy. Harang does not seem to have much in the way of trade value. Heck for all the amount of talk here about how he's not very good... you think any GM wants to trade for him by giving up any talent in return? Simple fact is the Reds will not get more than a bag of baseballs for him and that's only if they pay for those baseballs.

I disagree that he has no value. He's got plenty of value as a number 4 starter who is an upgrade from a AAAA ham and egger or a kid who isn't doing the job. The deal with Harang is that the Reds have plenty of number 4 types but really no number 1's or maybe not even number 2s'. The Reds need to clear salary and roster space to pursue a bigger fish. If he's dealt on July 31, we're talking about a little over $4 Million remaining for this year and a $2.5 Million option buy-out. If some team sends a lesser contract back, its not really that much of an increase to a team who may have set aside $5 Million or so for a play-off push and if it plugs a hole in their rotation down the stretch could be well worth it.

Brutus
07-17-2010, 08:52 PM
I disagree that he has no value. He's got plenty of value as a number 4 starter who is an upgrade from a AAAA ham and egger or a kid who isn't doing the job. The deal with Harang is that the Reds have plenty of number 4 types but really no number 1's or maybe not even number 2s'. The Reds need to clear salary and roster space to pursue a bigger fish. If he's dealt on July 31, we're talking about a little over $4 Million remaining for this year and a $2.5 Million option buy-out. If some team sends a lesser contract back, its not really that much of an increase to a team who may have set aside $5 Million or so for a play-off push and if it plugs a hole in their rotation down the stretch could be well worth it.

Since players are paid, typically, in 12 semi-monthly installments based on service time, we can get a rough estimation of what Harang is owed yet.

He has a $12.5 million deal this year. Since the season began officially on April 5 this season, by my calculations, through today Harang would have been active (or on the DL) for a prorated 103 of the 172 days during a championship season (as defined by the CBA). That's 59.99% or essentially 40% left of a $12.5 million contract ($5 million).

So if there's currently $5 million plus a $2.5 million buyout, that's $7.5 mil in obligations a team would be taking on - for what you term a valuable No. 4-starter. You really believe any team would pay $7 mil for a No. 4 starter that would be pitching less than two months?

To me, that seems like extremely unrealistic.

corkedbat
07-17-2010, 10:40 PM
Since players are paid, typically, in 12 semi-monthly installments based on service time, we can get a rough estimation of what Harang is owed yet.

He has a $12.5 million deal this year. Since the season began officially on April 5 this season, by my calculations, through today Harang would have been active (or on the DL) for a prorated 103 of the 172 days during a championship season (as defined by the CBA). That's 59.99% or essentially 40% left of a $12.5 million contract ($5 million).

So if there's currently $5 million plus a $2.5 million buyout, that's $7.5 mil in obligations a team would be taking on - for what you term a valuable No. 4-starter. You really believe any team would pay $7 mil for a No. 4 starter that would be pitching less than two months?
To me, that seems like extremely unrealistic.

The Reds are paying him the rest of the year anyway. I'd pay the remaing $5M for 2010 in exchange for a decent talent in return and passing on the option.

mth123
07-18-2010, 08:31 AM
Since players are paid, typically, in 12 semi-monthly installments based on service time, we can get a rough estimation of what Harang is owed yet.

He has a $12.5 million deal this year. Since the season began officially on April 5 this season, by my calculations, through today Harang would have been active (or on the DL) for a prorated 103 of the 172 days during a championship season (as defined by the CBA). That's 59.99% or essentially 40% left of a $12.5 million contract ($5 million).

So if there's currently $5 million plus a $2.5 million buyout, that's $7.5 mil in obligations a team would be taking on - for what you term a valuable No. 4-starter. You really believe any team would pay $7 mil for a No. 4 starter that would be pitching less than two months?

To me, that seems like extremely unrealistic.

On July 31, that figure drops by over $800K. If some team sends a million or two in Salary back to the Reds and they plug a gaping hole in the rotation w/o giving up prospects, I think that many would if they think plugging that hole is vital to their play-off chances.

REDREAD
07-19-2010, 11:03 AM
The Reds are paying him the rest of the year anyway. I'd pay the remaing $5M for 2010 in exchange for a decent talent in return and passing on the option.

Yes, that's the way to get it done. The other way is to take on another teams' 5-7 million dollar player. There's plenty of teams that would not mind adding Harang if the Reds paid the rest of his salary, or the trade was salary neutral.

Really, I don't see putting him on revocable waivers and letting the claiming team get him for nothing (like the Jays did with Randy Myers, etc).. Sure it would save 7 million or so, but it's just not worth it when the team is in first place. Not to mention, moves like that really undermine the front office. The next time that the Reds try to trade an expensive vet, people will remember the Harang giveaway and wait the Reds out.

Brutus
07-19-2010, 11:07 AM
The Reds are paying him the rest of the year anyway. I'd pay the remaing $5M for 2010 in exchange for a decent talent in return and passing on the option.

They're not going to get decent talent in return. If everyone agrees he's tantamount to a 4th starter, the Reds won't be getting much in return (if anything). Even if they sprung for half the salary (as let's be realistic, they aren't going to pay the majority of a salary of someone that won't be pitching for them), they won't get much in return.

camisadelgolf
07-22-2010, 01:29 PM
In case anyone's interested, Harang has the best K/BB ratio on the team.

Falls City Beer
07-22-2010, 01:32 PM
In case anyone's interested, Harang has the best K/BB ratio on the team.

The notion that there's enough talent in this rotation to force Aaron out is face-palmingly ridiculous. Harang's at worst the second best starter.

camisadelgolf
07-22-2010, 01:34 PM
The notion that there's enough talent in this rotation to force Aaron out is face-palmingly ridiculous. Harang's at worst the second best starter.
I wouldn't say Harang is the second-best starter, but I'll agree that he's at least vastly underrated.

Falls City Beer
07-22-2010, 01:34 PM
I wouldn't say Harang is the second-best starter, but I'll agree that he's at least vastly underrated.

When it comes to peripherals, he's inarguably the second-best starter.

camisadelgolf
07-22-2010, 01:36 PM
When it comes to peripherals, he's inarguably the second-best starter.
That's the thing with peripherals; you can distort them to mean whatever you want them to mean.

RedsManRick
07-22-2010, 01:51 PM
That's the thing with peripherals; you can distort them to mean whatever you want them to mean.

Really? Or do they just say something you disagree with?

Peripherals, specifically Ks, BBs and HRs, better predict future ERA than does current ERA. That is proven. Sure, it doesn't mean we know for sure what Harang's future ERA will be and anybody claiming they know how he'll perform moving forward is over-reaching. But it does mean that if we want to make an education guess how he's going to perform, we're better off using those peripherals than ERA -- and probably better off than somebody's best guess based on some gut calculus.

What if I'd like them to say that Harang is ace? How would you make the peripherals support that? What if I wanted to say he's absolutely horrible? How would you do that?

I don't disagree that stats can, and are, used improperly to support an argument. But this isn't people making an argument and cherry picking stats to back it up. This is looking at the data that we know best suggests future performance and simply following the analysis to its conclusions.

camisadelgolf
07-22-2010, 02:05 PM
Really? Or do they just say something you disagree with?

Peripherals, specifically Ks, BBs and HRs, better predict future ERA than does current ERA. That is proven. Sure, it doesn't mean we know for sure what Harang's future ERA will be and anybody claiming they know how he'll perform moving forward is over-reaching. But it does mean that if we want to make an education guess how he's going to perform, we're better off using those peripherals than ERA -- and probably better off than somebody's best guess based on some gut calculus.

What if I'd like them to say that Harang is ace? How would you make the peripherals support that? What if I wanted to say he's absolutely horrible? How would you do that?

I don't disagree that stats can, and are, used improperly to support an argument. But this isn't people making an argument and cherry picking stats to back it up. This is looking at the data that we know best suggests future performance and simply following the analysis to its conclusions.
I don't think I disagree with anyone who is saying anything optimistic about Harang, but even though peripherals give us our best measure of performances to come, I think you have to agree that they're far from perfect. I'm not arguing that ERA is a good predictor of anything (even current performance). At some point, you can't use the 'small sample size' argument and have to combine the knowledge of peripherals with performance and visual observations to decide that a player isn't as good as his peripherals suggest.

Falls City Beer
07-22-2010, 02:46 PM
When Harang's ready, I'd give him Volquez's spot, as I think Volquez was probably rushed back.

Harang
Cueto
Wood
Leake
Arroyo

Replace Leake with Maloney when Leake hits his limit. Let Volquez find what control he can down in the minors and start him fresh in spring.

The Voice of IH
07-22-2010, 04:07 PM
I don't know about Volqueze, he was on a tear his first appearance. I say that the Reds need to hold Harang down as long as possible, see what Volqueze can (another 2 starts) and if Volqueze is lacking, then go the fall city beer way, but if he is like he was against Colorado, they can then replace Leake and send him to the pen.

camisadelgolf
07-22-2010, 04:11 PM
I don't know about Volqueze, he was on a tear his first appearance. I say that the Reds need to hold Harang down as long as possible, see what Volqueze can (another 2 starts) and if Volqueze is lacking, then go the fall city beer way, but if he is like he was against Colorado, they can then replace Leake and send him to the pen.
I love your signature.

The Voice of IH
07-22-2010, 05:10 PM
yea, it drove the sun deck crazy :dancingco

mbgrayson
08-10-2010, 08:43 AM
From Hal McCoy (http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/):


ANOTHER ITEM of interest: Aaron Harang.

Harang, on the DL with a bad back, is scheduled for a simulated game tomorrow. Then he plans a mild bullpen workout Friday and hopes to pitch a rehab game over the weekend in the minors.

And if all goes well, he wants to rejoin the team next week on its west coast trip. One problem needs to be solved, though. Where does he fit? Certainly not in the already filled up starting rotation which already has a waiting list.

RedsManRick
08-10-2010, 09:24 AM
Something tells me Leake may have made his last start of the season yesterday. The Reds don't exactly need to be worried about options with him, so he could easily take a few turns in AAA, or take Fisher's spot in the bullpen.

redsmetz
08-10-2010, 09:34 AM
When Harang's ready, I'd give him Volquez's spot, as I think Volquez was probably rushed back.

Harang
Cueto
Wood
Leake
Arroyo

Replace Leake with Maloney when Leake hits his limit. Let Volquez find what control he can down in the minors and start him fresh in spring.

I'd tweak it slightly differently: Given the view two weeks later, I think Leake's hitting his limit. I think with Harang and Bailey ready to return, and with Wood coming back from AAA, I'd use that as an opportunity to go easy on Volquez too.

Jocketty's going to be ready for a circus tour with all of the juggling he's going to have to do from now until season's end.

dunner13
08-10-2010, 10:00 AM
I would come up with a mysterious muscle pull for leake and put him on the dl until september. Let him make a couple of starts in september to decide if hes in the playoff rotation or not. He needs a break if hes going to have any shot at helping us later this year.

fearofpopvol1
08-10-2010, 12:44 PM
I would rather have Harang back in the rotation over Leake right now. However, I would not rather have Bailey in over Harang and I would rather have Wood in there over Harang. This is goin to get very interesting over the next few weeks. I simply don't know what they are going to do. Even though it's not possible, I would rather have the rotation moving forward be...

Cueto
Wood
Arroyo
Harang
Bailey

Problem is, I don't think Volquez will be moved to the pen and I am not sure the Reds are thrilled about putting Harang back in the rotation.

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2010, 05:45 PM
From John Fay:

Harang will pitch in a game for Louisville in 5 days, if all goes well. #reds

http://twitter.com/johnfayman