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kaldaniels
07-17-2010, 07:03 PM
When Spuds was playing I was a youngster who didn't have an appreciation for a player's overall contribution to his team.

So I gotta say, when they flashed Sabo's career line up on the screen the other night....it didn't look good. I remember him being very popular...thats about it.

To those who were around back then...what are your impressions of Chris Sabo?

redhawkfish
07-17-2010, 08:13 PM
Good defense. Hacker at the plate. Some stolen bases, but not a very good base runner. His great post season in 1990 got him in the Reds HOF.

westofyou
07-17-2010, 08:14 PM
Loved Spuds, in retrospect he's my 1st Reds player I suspected of juicing.

CrackerJack
07-17-2010, 08:27 PM
Odd choice based on his #'s alone...would hate to see the Reds HOF become too much of a popularity thing. So do they induct Hal Morris too? Herm Winningham? Luis Quinones? They now have a case!

savafan
07-17-2010, 08:33 PM
Spuds was "famous" as a member of the Reds, and in the city of Cincinnati, so in that respect, I guess he belongs in the Reds Hall of Fame. 1988 Rookie of the Year, made the All-Star team as a rookie, had some pop, was pretty fast, really could pick it at third.

Always Red
07-17-2010, 11:37 PM
Odd choice based on his #'s alone...would hate to see the Reds HOF become too much of a popularity thing. So do they induct Hal Morris too? Herm Winningham? Luis Quinones? They now have a case!

Well, if Cesar Geronimo can be a Red's HoF'er, then the flood gates are wide open.

I loved the Chief, he had a great arm and was an excellent CF, but that was about it.

Oh, and he played on the Big Red Machine. :thumbup:

dougdirt
07-17-2010, 11:43 PM
Sabo in his first stint with the Reds had a 112 OPS+. That's pretty darn solid.

kaldaniels
07-18-2010, 12:22 AM
Sabo in his first stint with the Reds had a 112 OPS+. That's pretty darn solid.

Very solid, where does that rank on the Reds All-Time list.

Sidenote - Joey Votto is the Reds all-time OPS leader per Baseball Reference :thumbup:

TheNext44
07-18-2010, 03:52 AM
Spuds was the most popular player on the Reds for years. His rookie card flew out of the shops, and his #17 was easily the most popular jersey sold. He had a lot of Rose/Rosales in him, and was a fan favorite for his goofy look and even goofier quotes.

He had some very solid years, including the Championship 1990 season, when he was inserted into the leadoff slot and and was a real spark at the top of the lineup. He also had a great post season, and could have won the World Series MVP, it was a close call between him, Hatcher and Rijo.

Remember, those numbers were all pre-Roids. He was a true All-Star at the beginning of his career. When he left for Baltimore, he signed pretty big contract for the time, but injuries got the best of him, and he never regained his form.

For anyone around at the time he played for the Reds, he was an easy choice for the Hall of Fame. And it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Best Stats. Sabo was a true star for the Reds.

TheNext44
07-18-2010, 03:56 AM
Well, if Cesar Geronimo can be a Red's HoF'er, then the flood gates are wide open.

I loved the Chief, he had a great arm and was an excellent CF, but that was about it.

Oh, and he played on the Big Red Machine. :thumbup:

Don't sell the Chief short. He played Gold Glove centerfield for 8 years and posted a 95 OPS+ as a Red. That's very rare and impressive. He probably would have been the best player on the 1982 or 1983 Reds.

Always Red
07-18-2010, 06:22 AM
Don't sell the Chief short. He played Gold Glove centerfield for 8 years and posted a 95 OPS+ as a Red. That's very rare and impressive. He probably would have been the best player on the 1982 or 1983 Reds.

His OPS+ is below league average, by definition.

That's not Hall of Fame material in my book.

I loved Geronimo for what he was, but he was never even close to the best player on any team that he ever played for. He did win 4 GG's, from 1974-77, and played a wonderful, graceful CF.

In only one year did he post 500 AB's. He never made an All Star team.

The CF on that 1982 team was a guy who was a much better player than the Chief- Cesar Cedeno (who had 5 GG's), who was on the downside of a very nice career.

If the Reds HoF is merely a popularity contest, then that's fine. Even Chris Sabo said last night he didn't think he belonged in any HoF. I agree with him.

RedsBaron
07-18-2010, 07:47 AM
While just about everybody seems to have his or her own utopian idea of what the criteria should be for someone to be inducted into a Hall of Fame, be it the Reds or the one located in Cooperstown, one of the best measures for determining whether or not a particular player should be inducted is to look at who has already been inducted.
The Reds Hall of Fame includes Mike McCormick, Jerry Lynch, Smoky Burgess, Lonny Frey, Billy Werber, Gordy Coleman, Tommy Helms and Cesar Geronimo. Those guys were all quality ballplayers, many if not most of them all stars, but take at look at what they accomplished as Reds and compare their stats to those of Sabo. If those guys are Reds Hall of Famers (and they are), then Sabo belongs in the Reds Hall of Fame as well.
None of those guys, including Sabo, will ever be inducted into the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, and none should be, but the standard for induction into the Reds Hall of Fame, set over a half century, is a lot lower than that for admittance into Cooperstown.

Chip R
07-18-2010, 08:47 AM
Odd choice based on his #'s alone...would hate to see the Reds HOF become too much of a popularity thing. So do they induct Hal Morris too? Herm Winningham? Luis Quinones? They now have a case!

Well, fans do vote on this so it really can't help being a bit of a popularity contest.

Sabo was a staple at 3rd for 5-6 years. He and Heinie Groh are the only 2 3B in the Reds HOF. That shows you the trouble the Reds have had filling that spot.

Redlegs
07-18-2010, 09:48 AM
I thought the hall of fame was based on a player's complete credentials. I had no idea it was supposed to be soley based on offensive statistics as some of you seem to think.

Sabo is deserving, IMO. He was a major player here the majority of his career. Should have won a couple gold gloves and he could have easily been the 1990 World Series MVP.

Geronimo is also deserving. He's the best defensive outfielder the Reds have had in the last 50 years. He gave them strength up the middle with Johnny, Davey, and Little Joe. Two time world champion. Also hit .306 for the 1976 season. Definately deserves to be in the Reds HOF.

westofyou
07-18-2010, 10:47 AM
I thought the hall of fame was based on a player's complete credentials. I had no idea it was supposed to be soley based on offensive statistics as some of you seem to think.

Sabo is deserving, IMO. He was a major player here the majority of his career. Should have won a couple gold gloves and he could have easily been the 1990 World Series MVP.

Geronimo is also deserving. He's the best defensive outfielder the Reds have had in the last 50 years. He gave them strength up the middle with Johnny, Davey, and Little Joe. Two time world champion. Also hit .306 for the 1976 season. Definately deserves to be in the Reds HOF.

What about Harry Craft and Wayne Granger do they get rubber stamped as easily?

Tony Cloninger
07-18-2010, 10:52 AM
I remember Sabo for his hot start in 1988 when he was at about .322 at the AS break and looked like he would hit 50 doubles. He was a doubles machine.

He got off to hot starts in 1989 and 1990 as well....but got injured (like everyone else that year) in 1989 and played less than 80 games...and then slumped badly again in 1990 in the 2nd half. He was just too pull conscious.

In 1991...he had a very good year. Hits over .300 and came close to 30 homers. 1992...he hurt his ankle badly against LA at home..very early in the year. He hit like Juan Castro the rest of the year.

1993...he was okay...but Davey Johnson said he seemed to lose some bat speed and he just broke down after that. Complained in 1994 after being moved aside for Leo Gomez i think.....at 3B in Baltimore. Just went downhill fast.

Based on the criteria everyone speaks of in regards to Reds HOF....I guess i understand why he was picked. I loved those goggles.

Joseph
07-18-2010, 11:36 AM
It's a hall of FAME. By its very definition its about who is FAMOUS as a Red. Sabo was exceptionally popular and famous as a Red [at least in Cincinnati].

Were it a Hall of Greats, there are dozens of folks who are in who don't deserve it.

_Sir_Charles_
07-18-2010, 12:07 PM
When Spuds was playing I was a youngster who didn't have an appreciation for a player's overall contribution to his team.

So I gotta say, when they flashed Sabo's career line up on the screen the other night....it didn't look good. I remember him being very popular...thats about it.

To those who were around back then...what are your impressions of Chris Sabo?

Nice guy, solid contributor...surprised as heck that he's going into the Reds HoF.

wheels
07-18-2010, 12:24 PM
I'll tell you what....He may have been the strangest player to ever don a Reds uniform.

I loved the shirt he was wearing Friday night, and how he just sorta muttered about "still getting along with MOST" of his old teammates.

How a guy like that can spawn two more than reasonably attractive daughters gives a guy like me hope.

He also gave me hope as a youngster just starting high school. My Major League aspirations ended right about the time he hit that homer in game three, but the guy lit a fire under me and he was a hoot to watch.

Definitely one of the more FAMOUS Reds.

Redlegs
07-18-2010, 12:39 PM
What about Harry Craft and Wayne Granger do they get rubber stamped as easily?

I think every single starting position player from the 1975-76 Reds teams deserve to be in the club's hall of fame. That would include Ken Griffey. A couple years ago, ESPN ranked them as the best lineup in the history of baseball just ahead of the '27 Yankees. If you have a problem with Geronimo then that is, indeed, your problem.

In the rich history of this franchise, you can count their world championships on one hand. Sabo was a huge part of one of them and put together a memorable career here. I have no problem with him being in. Probably the most popular player on that team.

Redlegs
07-18-2010, 12:50 PM
The Chief scores the winning run in game 3 of the 1975 World Series. He hit .280 with a triple and two HR's in that series as well as playing his usual great defense.


http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/708C1B2E-684B-4127-9BA9-01293EB70146/U1850146.jpg

westofyou
07-18-2010, 01:26 PM
I think every single starting position player from the 1975-76 Reds teams deserve to be in the club's hall of fame. That would include Ken Griffey. A couple years ago, ESPN ranked them as the best lineup in the history of baseball just ahead of the '27 Yankees. If you have a problem with Geronimo then that is, indeed, your problem.

In the rich history of this franchise, you can count their world championships on one hand. Sabo was a huge part of one of them and put together a memorable career here. I have no problem with him being in. Probably the most popular player on that team.
But that wasn't my question.

savafan
07-18-2010, 02:25 PM
If you guys think the Reds Hall of Fame has low standards, you should see some of the guys inducted into the Seattle Pilots Hall of Fame.

Redlegs
07-18-2010, 02:29 PM
But that wasn't my question.

Your question was framed whereas comparisons were made between Harry Craft and Cesar Geronimo. Or at least I'm assuming that's what you meant due to the fact both played centerfield and both were known more for defense than offense.

The comparisons are ridiculous. After researching, Craft played 4 full seasons for the Reds and collected 1 post season hit. Geronimo played 9 seasons, collected 4 gold gloves, had key hits in the 1975 world series, etc.

Mario-Rijo
07-18-2010, 02:31 PM
Congrats Spuds, a Reds great!

westofyou
07-18-2010, 02:46 PM
Your question was framed whereas comparisons were made between Harry Craft and Cesar Geronimo. Or at least I'm assuming that's what you meant due to the fact both played centerfield and both were known more for defense than offense.

The comparisons are ridiculous. After researching, Craft played 4 full seasons for the Reds and collected 1 post season hit. Geronimo played 9 seasons, collected 4 gold gloves, had key hits in the 1975 world series, etc.

And Harry Craft is in the Reds HOF, mainly because when the thing was created he was baseball figure who was connected to the Reds only World Champs. It's quite possible that in 20 years someone will say the same about the Chief, I know everything he did as a Red, but in retrospect I don't think he's a Reds HOF member. Nor do I think Craft should be.

GAC
07-18-2010, 02:56 PM
When he broke his leg or messed up his knee (can't remember which) Sabo was living in a condo right across the street from the in-laws. When visiting, I was tempted to walk across the street and try to catch him at home.

As for yesterday's game...... I hope that lady who stole Chip and I's Sabo bobble head dolls - "Sure, I watch them for you" - chokes on'em! :D

TheNext44
07-18-2010, 02:57 PM
And Harry Craft is in the Reds HOF, mainly because when the thing was created he was baseball figure who was connected to the Reds only World Champs. It's quite possible that in 20 years someone will say the same about the Chief, I know everything he did as a Red, but in retrospect I don't think he's a Reds HOF member. Nor do I think Craft should be.

The criteria for being in a team's HOF is completely different from being in MLB's HOF. It's not like it's a lower standard, it's a different animal altogether .

Being major part of a Championship team, for a franchises that only has a few, is more than enough reason to be included in a team's HOF. Geronimo easily belongs for reason alone. And probably Craft, but I don't know enough about him to really say.

Anyway, Geronimo also is one of the best players to play for the Reds. I wonder how many three time Gold Glovers the team has had in its history? And he really was a pretty good hitter. Right around league average. Much better than people remember.

camisadelgolf
07-18-2010, 05:16 PM
I've met Spuds many times, and I have to say the guy is a grade-A jerk in my experience. However, as a third baseman, no one has contributed more to the Reds since Pete Rose. He's not a slam-dunk Reds HoFer imo, but he's far from a bad choice based on his performance.

westofyou
07-18-2010, 06:55 PM
The criteria for being in a team's HOF is completely different from being in MLB's HOF. It's not like it's a lower standard, it's a different animal altogether .

Being major part of a Championship team, for a franchises that only has a few, is more than enough reason to be included in a team's HOF. Geronimo easily belongs for reason alone. And probably Craft, but I don't know enough about him to really say.

Anyway, Geronimo also is one of the best players to play for the Reds. I wonder how many three time Gold Glovers the team has had in its history? And he really was a pretty good hitter. Right around league average. Much better than people remember.

One of the best?


Great glove, great 1976, otherwise vs the league




CESAR GERONIMO

YEAR TEAM AGE G AB R H 2B 3B HR HR% RBI BB SO SB CS AVG SLG OBA OPS
1969 Astros 21 0 7 0 1 0 0 -2.36 -1 -1 2 0 0 -.009 -.009 -.080 -.089
1970 Astros 22 -4 -1 -2 -2 0 -1 -2.68 -3 -2 -1 -1 0 -.024 -.165 -.047 -.212
1971 Astros 23 -3 3 -4 -1 1 -1 -0.99 -3 -3 19 1 -1 -.040 -.051 -.062 -.113
1972 Reds 24 2 2 5 -1 5 -2 -0.71 1 -1 26 -2 -5 .018 .033 .019 .052
1973 Reds 25 -24 -9 -23 0 1 -5 -1.25 -8 -12 24 -1 -2 -.053 -.082 -.066 -.148
1974 Reds 26 15 15 13 -2 5 -2 -0.58 1 -3 33 0 0 .018 .015 .010 .026
1975 Reds 27 7 7 -2 3 1 -4 -0.79 -4 -4 31 4 -1 -.008 -.020 -.010 -.030
1976 Reds 28 35 4 31 5 7 -6 -1.38 -2 12 35 12 0 .044 .039 .052 .092
1977 Reds 29 3 -11 -1 -1 0 -3 -0.54 -9 -14 18 -2 3 -.003 -.022 -.016 -.038
1978 Reds 30 -16 -10 -15 1 -1 -1 -0.39 -9 12 24 0 1 -.036 -.051 .000 -.051
1979 Reds 31 -8 -9 -13 1 1 -4 -1.17 -6 1 6 -8 3 -.030 -.056 -.022 -.079
1980 Reds 32 0 -2 -2 -1 -1 -1 -0.60 -8 0 4 -2 1 -.012 -.056 -.010 -.067
1981 Royals 33 -3 -1 -2 -5 1 -1 -0.40 -1 0 0 4 0 -.010 -.042 -.015 -.057
1982 Royals 34 -3 -2 0 1 2 1 0.69 8 -3 -1 0 1 .005 .068 -.023 .046
1983 Royals 35 -3 -10 -6 0 -1 -2 -2.45 -7 -6 0 -2 0 -.059 -.148 -.086 -.234
TOTALS -2 -17 -21 -3 22 -32 -0.85 -50 -26 219 2 1 -.006 -.020 -.007 -.027


YEAR TEAM RC RCAA RCAP OWP RC/G TB EBH ISO SEC BPA IBB HBP SAC SF GIDP OUTS PA POS
1969 Astros 0 0.10 0 0 .000 -.115 -.051 0 0 0 0 0 0 -1 RF
1970 Astros -3 -2.36 -8 -3 -.141 -.212 -.208 -1 1 1 1 -1 0 -4 LF
1971 Astros -4 -1.45 -5 -1 -.011 -.036 -.051 -1 -1 0 -1 2 0 -7 LF
1972 Reds 2 0.21 9 2 .015 .002 .012 4 2 1 -2 1 0 2 RF
1973 Reds -20 -1.93 -36 -4 -.029 -.060 -.089 -2 1 1 1 3 0 -33 CF
1974 Reds 5 0.34 13 0 -.003 -.014 .013 5 -1 1 -1 3 0 11 CF
1975 Reds -4 -0.29 -7 1 -.012 -.015 -.006 2 1 -2 -3 5 0 -1 CF
1976 Reds 26 1.96 32 6 -.005 .035 .076 8 4 -2 1 4 0 50 CF
1977 Reds -9 -0.67 -10 -4 -.019 -.054 -.031 7 2 2 -3 0 0 -11 CF
1978 Reds -6 -0.70 -21 -2 -.015 .031 -.010 6 1 5 -2 2 0 1 CF
1979 Reds -12 -1.15 -23 -3 -.026 -.041 -.057 6 0 0 -1 0 0 -8 CF
1980 Reds -3 -0.65 -8 -4 -.045 -.057 -.052 1 -1 1 0 1 0 0 CF
1981 Royals -2 -0.43 -6 -4 -.032 .001 -.013 1 -1 1 1 0 0 -3 RF
1982 Royals 0 -0.04 7 3 .063 .035 .027 1 -1 -1 3 -2 0 -5 CF
1983 Royals -7 -2.62 -14 -3 -.089 -.177 -.173 -1 2 -1 -1 1 0 -10 RF
TOTALS -37 -0.33 -78 -14 -.015 -.021 -.015 36 11 6 -7 18 0 -18

westofyou
07-18-2010, 07:03 PM
BTW the Reds have had 8 guys win 3 GG (or more) and another 4 to win 2, they have never had a GG 1st baseman

savafan
07-18-2010, 07:09 PM
BTW the Reds have had 8 guys win 3 GG (or more) and another 4 to win 2, they have never had a GG 1st baseman

That's because they never took Redszone's advice and moved Adam Dunn there. ;)

TheNext44
07-18-2010, 07:43 PM
BTW the Reds have had 8 guys win 3 GG (or more) and another 4 to win 2, they have never had a GG 1st baseman

I only have 7 with 3 or more, (Bench, Morgan, Concepcion, Larkin, Davis, McMillan and Geronimo) but I could be missing one. However, of the 7 that I have, all of them are in the Reds Hall of Fame, including Roy McMillan, who was not nearly as strong offensively as Geronimo.

Just curiously, who am I missing? Thanks.

westofyou
07-18-2010, 08:32 PM
I only have 7 with 3 or more, (Bench, Morgan, Concepcion, Larkin, Davis, McMillan and Geronimo) but I could be missing one. However, of the 7 that I have, all of them are in the Reds Hall of Fame, including Roy McMillan, who was not nearly as strong offensively as Geronimo.

Just curiously, who am I missing? Thanks.

No you're right, I miscounted, they have 7, and then they have a few with 2 (Rose, Edwards, Reese)

RedsBaron
07-18-2010, 09:50 PM
It's a hall of FAME. By its very definition its about who is FAMOUS as a Red. Sabo was exceptionally popular and famous as a Red [at least in Cincinnati].

Were it a Hall of Greats, there are dozens of folks who are in who don't deserve it.

I haven't been able to find listed criteria for selection to the Reds Hall of Fame, but I doubt that the criteria is "fame." I've read arguments that election to the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown is by definition based fame, but the stated criteria is that the factors to be considered are the "player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the teams(s) on which he played."
I believe that the Hall of Fame truly is intended to be a "Hall of Greats."

GAC
07-19-2010, 05:19 AM
I don't think a team's HOF should be compared to, or should necessarily have to carry the same criteria, as needed for induction into MLB's HOF (Cooperstown). It's not necessarily what your level of performance was in comparison to MLB as a whole; but to that particular franchise for the years you were there. Maybe that involves leading the team, or being among the leaders, in numerous statistical categories, maybe even for the particular position you played, or holding team records.

I can understand the argument that simply playing for a winning, or championship, team shouldn't necessarily qualify one of that franchise's HOF. I think the Red's organization does that, when it comes the BRM or the 90 team, simply as a marketing tool aimed at the fans because they all hold this "sentimentality" towards those teams and certain players, and want to see them somehow recognized. Guys like Geronimo, and even Spuds, many others could easily be mentioned, are such players. And they aren't the only franchise that does so.