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View Full Version : Another Sunday loss thanks to you know who



ILoveWilly
07-18-2010, 04:24 PM
A comparison of the players genius decided to start today over the ones who sit the pine most of the game:

On base percentage:

Corky Miller: .277
Ryan Hanigan: .448

(I guess Hanigan needed a day off those after the strenuous stretch of two games he had to catch in this week. :rolleyes:)

Laynce Nix: .265
Chris Heisey: .373

(Nix is going to be DFA'ed, I hope, when Dickerson is back healthy)

Miguel Cairo: .331
Paul Janish: .397

(Neither are spectacular, but what does Janish have to do to get a start anymore? Especially with Cairo's horrible defense)


Thanks Dusty. Chances are if you started those three guys this game, we break through at some point with a couple runs.

arkimadee
07-18-2010, 04:43 PM
i think the reason Corky started was that he caught Wood in the minors and has since he has been up here.. I agree with you about Janish.. He should have been in there instead of Cairo.

Kiss the Baby00
07-18-2010, 04:44 PM
i think the reason Corky started was that he caught Wood in the minors and has since he has been up here.. I agree with you about Janish.. He should have been in there instead of Cairo.

correct

ILoveWilly
07-18-2010, 04:54 PM
What does it MATTER who caught him in the minors though? EVERY pitcher when getting promoted has to use a new catcher, and get used to a new catcher, all throughout their careers. And when Hernandez is healthy, Corky is going back to the Bats.

I don't understand what kind of logic goes through Dusty's head in these decisions. He's more concerned with stupid crap like that than the things that actually get you a W.

GIDP
07-18-2010, 04:56 PM
My only problem is that they dont plan out these off days better. There is no reason to have 3 starters sitting on the same day. They do it an awful lot, be it Stubbs, Rolen, Cabrera, or what ever mixture of 3 normal starters.

arkimadee
07-18-2010, 04:57 PM
yeah but the last time he caught him he almost had a perfect game so why mess his chemistry up if you don't have too.. plus Hannigan hadn't hit crap his last two games..

NorrisHopper30
07-18-2010, 04:59 PM
Dusty tanks Sundays:

6-9 record
and we've been shutout 5 of those 9 losses.

ILoveWilly
07-18-2010, 05:01 PM
Yeah because obviously who is catching you totally matters. Thank God we brought up Volquez rehab catcher for him to have a good start yesterday.

And wow Norris, what a crazy, horrible horrible stat that is. If I recall as well, the last two months we've won like two Sunday games.

And GIDP, as for the off day, we've played TWO games after a 5 game break. Outside of Rolen who was sick, Dusty shouldn't even have taken guys off today anyway. We had three guys in our lineup today with sub .300 on base percentages! Holy crap.

Javy Pornstache
07-18-2010, 05:03 PM
Just to clarify, Hanigan is the one that caught Wood's start in Philly, not Corky. Remember.... Hanigan had the two at-bats with runner on 3rd and one out and had two of his only eight strikeouts of the season in those two at-bats?

ILoveWilly
07-18-2010, 05:04 PM
Just to clarify, Hanigan is the one that caught Wood's start in Philly, not Corky. Remember.... Hanigan had the two at-bats with runner on 3rd and one out and had two of his only eight strikeouts of the season in those two at-bats?

And more facts to throw on the fire. Watch out now, you're going to make the Dusty supporters cry. :p:

arkimadee
07-18-2010, 05:06 PM
Just to clarify, Hanigan is the one that caught Wood's start in Philly, not Corky. Remember.... Hanigan had the two at-bats with runner on 3rd and one out and had two of his only eight strikeouts of the season in those two at-bats?
oh yeah... i forgot about that... how could i forget that he was the one who costed us the game that day.. lol

bshall2105
07-18-2010, 05:13 PM
Hanigan didn't start because of the day after night game.

ILoveWilly
07-18-2010, 06:00 PM
Apparently St Louis didn't get the memo that you're supposed to play your worst players on Sunday, as they rallied from a 4 run deficit in the final 2 innings to win 5-4. We're exactly where we belong to be now: not in first. No illusions or "but but ... we're still in first!" excuses today.

Wake up Walt, get us some bench players, and set Dusty straight on how to run a freaking team.

Razzle
07-18-2010, 06:04 PM
Apparently St Louis didn't get the memo that you're supposed to play your worst players on Sunday, as they rallied from a 4 run deficit in the final 2 innings to win 5-4. We're exactly where we belong to be now: not in first. No illusions or "but but ... we're still in first!" excuses today.

Wake up Walt, get us some bench players, and set Dusty straight on how to run a freaking team.

Pujols, Rasmus, and Molina sat. Allen Craig batted third. Suppan started. I'm pretty sure they got the memo.

fewfirstchoice
07-18-2010, 06:08 PM
St. Louis will win the Central by 5-8gms watch and see. I hope im wrong but with Dusty running the Reds they will never make the playoffs. he seems to think sundays are throw away games and nothing more. It seems like he never plays his A team on Sunday. I can understand resting players but not more than 1 regular at a time. He sits 3 and 4 regulars during some games and it makes no sense. Oh well i guess its time to sit back and watch the train wreck that is Dusty Baker derail this Reds team. They will finish 10 gms under 500. i bet.

redsfan_12
07-18-2010, 06:08 PM
You shouldn't have to rest guys 3 days into the post- all star break

ILoveWilly
07-18-2010, 06:09 PM
Pujols, Rasmus, and Molina sat. Allen Craig batted third. Suppan started. I'm pretty sure they got the memo.

More reason why we should have won today.

Vottomatic
07-18-2010, 07:02 PM
My only problem is that they dont plan out these off days better. There is no reason to have 3 starters sitting on the same day. They do it an awful lot, be it Stubbs, Rolen, Cabrera, or what ever mixture of 3 normal starters.

Agreed. Why Dusty rests multiple starters on the same day is beyond me. Makes ZERO sense.

lidspinner
07-18-2010, 07:41 PM
at some point, someone needs to sit Dusty down and ask him why he dont like Janish's game....not playing Paul is costing us and when we are in this close of a race, every little advantage is going to help.....I try my hardest to like Dusty and I really do try to give him the benny of the doubt....but its hard, its so hard to like the guy as a manager when he does the dumbest things.....sometimes I think he has "it" and other times I think "it" is miles away from Dusty......Im losing faith in him and I think the FO is too.

Kiss the Baby00
07-18-2010, 07:47 PM
at some point, someone needs to sit Dusty down and ask him why he dont like Janish's game....not playing Paul is costing us and when we are in this close of a race, every little advantage is going to help.....I try my hardest to like Dusty and I really do try to give him the benny of the doubt....but its hard, its so hard to like the guy as a manager when he does the dumbest things.....sometimes I think he has "it" and other times I think "it" is miles away from Dusty......Im losing faith in him and I think the FO is too.

how does dusty leading us to our best season in 10 years equate to you thinking the front office is losing faith in him?

Vottomatic
07-18-2010, 08:02 PM
Alot of fans think this team is winning despite Dusty. Me included.

So many close game losses that were for the taking that you can pinpoint managerial mistakes that may have cost us those games.

kfm
07-18-2010, 08:08 PM
Pujols, Rasmus, and Molina sat. Allen Craig batted third. Suppan started. I'm pretty sure they got the memo.

You have to be wrong, only Dusty would do something like this. No other manager alive or dead would do this. So let me get this straight, the Reds lost today because Dusty sat three starters. Who are the 3 starters he rested? Having watched the game, I foolishly thought they lost because they were 1 for 10 with RISP and because they stranded 10 baserunners. I hate when he rest 3 starters but he did not rest 3 starters today although Tony Larussa did.The reality is the reds were shut out for the 4th time in 9 games and instead of wasting our time discussing playing Paul Janish over Miguel Cairo (who is a big reason why the Reds are where they are today btw) we should be wondering if the Reds are going through a correction of their batting with RISP from the first half of the season when they were out of their minds, or is the poor offense just a temporary slump. In their last 14 games they have scored 3 runs or less 9 times.

lidspinner
07-18-2010, 09:01 PM
how does dusty leading us to our best season in 10 years equate to you thinking the front office is losing faith in him?


if they had faith in him then the logical thing to do would be to extend Dustys contract....and I am under the belief that his agent has opened the lines of communication.....so if they have not extended then it makes me think what most all people in baseball are thinking....that we are winning games because we have a dam good pitching staff and a few young guys that are studs.....this team is having the best season in 10 years because of the players, not because Dusty is here....In fact, I could argue that we should have at LEAST 5 more wins right now but Dustys inability to manage a game has cost us.

Dusty is always going to have that cloud hanging over him...he had the talent in San Fran and the best player arguably of all time...he had some GREAT talent in chi town and could not bring it home....Dusty is a great friend to the players and someone they will run through a wall for....he gets the most out of his players cause they want to play for him....and thats great, its a hard quality to find in managers.....but he has no sense of in game management.....he is very dull in that area....we are trading one talent for a decline in another area. Dusty chokes when the pressure is on. Dusty has lost games for us, that is as close to fact as can get.....but I am also sure Dusty has won games for us as well from getting more from his players....there is just no way to compare the wins versus loses.....but I know he frustrates me to no end at times.

kfm
07-18-2010, 09:09 PM
if they had faith in him then the logical thing to do would be to extend Dustys contract....and I am under the belief that his agent has opened the lines of communication.....so if they have not extended then it makes me think what most all people in baseball are thinking....that we are winning games because we have a dam good pitching staff and a few young guys that are studs.....this team is having the best season in 10 years because of the players, not because Dusty is here....In fact, I could argue that we should have at LEAST 5 more wins right now but Dustys inability to manage a game has cost us.

Dusty is always going to have that cloud hanging over him...he had the talent in San Fran and the best player arguably of all time...he had some GREAT talent in chi town and could not bring it home....Dusty is a great friend to the players and someone they will run through a wall for....he gets the most out of his players cause they want to play for him....and thats great, its a hard quality to find in managers.....but he has no sense of in game management.....he is very dull in that area....we are trading one talent for a decline in another area. Dusty chokes when the pressure is on. Dusty has lost games for us, that is as close to fact as can get.....but I am also sure Dusty has won games for us as well from getting more from his players....there is just no way to compare the wins versus loses.....but I know he frustrates me to no end at times.

I would not read too much into them not offering him an extension right now. By all accounts they could be ironing out an extension or could have agreed on one already. I listen to a lot of sports talk radio and xm baseball shows and I can say that the only places I hear Dusty routinely bashed are in cincinnati and chicago. That is not to say he is universally loved outside of these two cities but the idea that all of baseball thinks Dusty is a bumbling idiot is far off from the truth. What have San Francisco and Chicago done before Dusty got there and since he left? Hasn't Dusty wone manager of the year 3 times and he is currently either manager of the year or first runner up on every list I have seen so far. So that means he could win his third or fourth manager of the year award. Hard to do that and argue that everyone else thinks he is an idiot.

Revering4Blue
07-18-2010, 09:11 PM
Well, the Reds are only .5 game behind the Cards, who will host the Phillies.

The Reds are also tied with the Rockies for the wild card lead, and the Nats come to town.

Yes, fellow Redzoners, the sky is falling.

It is maddening that Travis Wood is receiving NO run support--overstating the obvious.

George Foster
07-18-2010, 09:19 PM
Well, the Reds are only .5 game behind the Cards, who will host the Phillies.

The Reds are also tied with the Rockies for the wild card lead, and the Nats come to town.

Yes, fellow Redzoners, the sky is falling.

It is maddening that Travis Wood is receiving NO run support--overstating the obvious.

No way we win the wild card. I don't see us beating the Giants, Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, or Rockies. We might beat some of them but not all of them. The only way we make the post season is winning the NL Central.

bshall2105
07-18-2010, 09:32 PM
No way we win the wild card. I don't see us beating the Giants, Dodgers, Phillies, Mets, or Rockies. We might beat some of them but not all of them. The only way we make the post season is winning the NL Central.

We just beat the Rockies, we've beat the Mets, split with the Giants, split with the Dodgers, and could have easily beaten the Phillies. Combine that with the easiest second half schedule and I think we have a good shot at the wild card and the division.

markymark69
07-18-2010, 10:03 PM
Hanigan didn't start because of the day after night game.

That's more likely the reason. Happens all the time.

Griffey012
07-18-2010, 10:07 PM
Pujols, Rasmus, and Molina sat. Allen Craig batted third. Suppan started. I'm pretty sure they got the memo.

That St. Louis lineup was a joke today. It was our equivalent of having Cairo at 1b, Janish at 3b, Miller at C and Nix in LF.

markymark69
07-18-2010, 10:15 PM
St. Louis will win the Central by 5-8gms watch and see. I hope im wrong but with Dusty running the Reds they will never make the playoffs. he seems to think sundays are throw away games and nothing more. It seems like he never plays his A team on Sunday. I can understand resting players but not more than 1 regular at a time. He sits 3 and 4 regulars during some games and it makes no sense. Oh well i guess its time to sit back and watch the train wreck that is Dusty Baker derail this Reds team. They will finish 10 gms under 500. i bet.

He only rested two guys today. He rested Hanigan, who was a blistering 0-for-10 or so since coming off the DL and he rested Bruce who couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat right now. All other starters played and played like they had an early dinner to get to. Rolen was out with an illness, does not count.

You can argue on Nix over Heisey as Bruce replacement's I'll give you that, but if it's me I play Cairo over Janish as well. I'm not a Janish fan.

I love how the Reds slip a whole 1/2 game out of first place and all the sudden - it's all over. Do us a favor, since you know the team is going to collapse, just don't watch, listen or post about the team the rest of the season, then Dusty will be gone and all of you will be happy until the next guy does something questionable and you can nitpick him ad nauseum.

markymark69
07-18-2010, 10:20 PM
You have to be wrong, only Dusty would do something like this. No other manager alive or dead would do this. So let me get this straight, the Reds lost today because Dusty sat three starters. Who are the 3 starters he rested? Having watched the game, I foolishly thought they lost because they were 1 for 10 with RISP and because they stranded 10 baserunners. I hate when he rest 3 starters but he did not rest 3 starters today although Tony Larussa did.The reality is the reds were shut out for the 4th time in 9 games and instead of wasting our time discussing playing Paul Janish over Miguel Cairo (who is a big reason why the Reds are where they are today btw) we should be wondering if the Reds are going through a correction of their batting with RISP from the first half of the season when they were out of their minds, or is the poor offense just a temporary slump. In their last 14 games they have scored 3 runs or less 9 times.

Hey, somebody that actually looks at some facts instead of letting their bias get the best of them.

Vottomatic
07-18-2010, 10:41 PM
This team is winning despite Dusty. Take that to the bank.

flash
07-18-2010, 10:56 PM
Actually the Reds have been shut out in three of their last 5 games all by 1-0 scores. They have been shut out in 8 of their last forty. Kinda hard to win a pennant when you get shut out 20 percent of the time. (60 percent in the last 5)

I didn't see today's game, but I read the Reds had runners on first and third with one out in the ninth. Stubbs was the guy on third. The last two guys struck out. Guess heisy and Phillips can't bunt either.

Orodle
07-18-2010, 11:20 PM
Does anyone know our record on Sunday's this season?

sabometrics
07-19-2010, 01:09 AM
Hanigan has done nothing since he got off the DL, and I would expect nothing of him if he started yesterday. Corky over Hanigan is a wash for me. They've both been offensive non-factors while being defensively solid.

Cairo over Janish I still don't like, I don't know when I will, despite the mixed success Cairo has had spelling Rolen. This is one place I'll continue to feel uneasy, even if Cairo produces. I just don't buy he's better. I want to say I don't blame Dusty for continuing to start the guy who has come up big in the past, but I just don't like Cairo over Janish.

Nix over Heisey is the most glaring omission for me though. I don't care if Nix lines up in the left box and plays good in the field, Heisey can play the field and I like his bat better regardless of the handedness of the pitcher.

I'm not quick to jump on Dusty's case, overall I think he's done a more than satisfactory job, but these day games are an exception. We've all seen this act over and over, we are giving away games, and it has to stop.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 02:51 AM
Does anyone know our record on Sunday's this season?

6-9 overall
5 shut outs

bounty37h
07-19-2010, 10:15 AM
What does it MATTER who caught him in the minors though? EVERY pitcher when getting promoted has to use a new catcher, and get used to a new catcher, all throughout their careers. And when Hernandez is healthy, Corky is going back to the Bats.

I don't understand what kind of logic goes through Dusty's head in these decisions. He's more concerned with stupid crap like that than the things that actually get you a W.

Keep in mind not only is Corky familiar with him, but Hanigan just came off Dl, so prob working him back in slower. I dont question that decision at all to be honest with you.

bounty37h
07-19-2010, 10:17 AM
Pujols, Rasmus, and Molina sat. Allen Craig batted third. Suppan started. I'm pretty sure they got the memo.

And more facts to throw on the fire. Watch out now, you're going to make the Dusty bridgejumpers cry. :rolleyes:

redhat
07-19-2010, 11:23 AM
My only problem is that they dont plan out these off days better. There is no reason to have 3 starters sitting on the same day.
Tony La Russa put out such a weird lineup yesterday afternoon that the game thread over on BirdsOnTheBat.org (http://birdsonthebat.org/forumdisplay.php?f=1) was titled "July 18 obligatory loss vs. Dodgers (http://birdsonthebat.org/showthread.php?t=58531)." Riding the pine were four starters: Albert Pujols, Yadier Molina, Tyler Greene and Colby Rasmus. In their places were rookie Allen Craig, Jason Larue, slump-ridden Brendan Ryan and rookie John Jay. Not to mention retread Randy Winn playing right field. And on top of that Craig batted third. Everyone was all over La Russa's butt for giving the team no chance to win.

Today, we find out that 1) Pujols was gassed, having played every game since April 29, 2) Molina needed a day off after catching three straight games in the unrelenting heat and 3) Rasmus tweaked his hamstring and couldn't go.

Sometimes the manager simply has to run some bench players out there and give them a chance to perform.

jimbo
07-19-2010, 11:32 AM
My only problem is that they dont plan out these off days better. There is no reason to have 3 starters sitting on the same day. They do it an awful lot, be it Stubbs, Rolen, Cabrera, or what ever mixture of 3 normal starters.

Why would you want to play 4 games or so a week without your best lineup? I see it as much more preferable to play 6 out of 7 games with a lineup that is at full-strength, instead of trying to spread days off throughout the whole week.

ILoveWilly
07-19-2010, 02:00 PM
You have to be wrong, only Dusty would do something like this. No other manager alive or dead would do this. So let me get this straight, the Reds lost today because Dusty sat three starters. Who are the 3 starters he rested? Having watched the game, I foolishly thought they lost because they were 1 for 10 with RISP and because they stranded 10 baserunners. I hate when he rest 3 starters but he did not rest 3 starters today although Tony Larussa did.The reality is the reds were shut out for the 4th time in 9 games and instead of wasting our time discussing playing Paul Janish over Miguel Cairo (who is a big reason why the Reds are where they are today btw) we should be wondering if the Reds are going through a correction of their batting with RISP from the first half of the season when they were out of their minds, or is the poor offense just a temporary slump. In their last 14 games they have scored 3 runs or less 9 times.

Yup and that obviously had no correlation to starting 3 players with a sub .300 OBP, two of which probably won't even be on the roster in a matter of a week.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 02:03 PM
Why would you want to play 4 games or so a week without your best lineup? I see it as much more preferable to play 6 out of 7 games with a lineup that is at full-strength, instead of trying to spread days off throughout the whole week.

Because your bench is so terrible that you have been shut out 5 times this year on Sunday.

brm7675
07-19-2010, 02:11 PM
Because your bench is so terrible that you have been shut out 5 times this year on Sunday.

I would totally disagree that our bench is terrible, what is terrible is how Dusty uses it. HUGE difference.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 02:18 PM
I would totally disagree that our bench is terrible, what is terrible is how Dusty uses it. HUGE difference.

Laynce Nix is very bad
Corkey Miller is very bad
Cairo has been pretty bad his whole career, but had a super hotstreak so no one cares that his career OPS is in the .600s

Those 3 guys are pretty darn bad in my opinion. Janish doesnt play enough for us to know how bad he is.

Heisey might be the only bench player that I wouldnt label as bad.

Not saying those guys dont bring something to the table but when you rely on them to play, especially all 3 or 4 on the same day its going to be hard to win any games, and score a run.

RedsFanInBama
07-19-2010, 02:22 PM
It doesn't take a genius to know you aren't going to score many runs when your 5-8 in the batting order is Nix, Cairo, Stubbs, Miller.

I knew when I looked at that lineup yesterday we had a very small chance of winning. I didn't expect to get shut out, but I wasn't entirely surprised by it either.

That lineup has the feeling of "We've won the series already, so winning today would be nice but not completely necessary." Lots of Dusty's Sunday lineups have that same feeling.

Nix should not play, period. Heisey has promise, he's a young guy. Play him whenever another outfielder sits. He should be getting much more playing time. He could be a big piece of the future of this team and him sitting over on the bench rotting is a horrible way to keep him growing. Dusty overrates the significance of the lefty-righty matchup with regularity.

Janish should be playing twice a week at shortstop. I think everyone knows he should play more but unfortunately it's just not going to happen, at least not this year. I'd prefer him to Cairo also because his defense is much better and offensively he's got more pop. He also runs better and is more likely to help the team score.

I'm fine with Corky catching every fifth day or so, but there was no reason that Hanigan couldn't have caught yesterday. So what if Miller had caught Wood previously? Hanigan is a smart guy and he's a very good receiver himself. We would not have lost anything IMO by starting Hanigan behind the plate. And of course even discussing offense between him and Corky is pointless.

ILoveWilly
07-19-2010, 03:04 PM
It doesn't take a genius to know you aren't going to score many runs when your 5-8 in the batting order is Nix, Cairo, Stubbs, Miller.

I knew when I looked at that lineup yesterday we had a very small chance of winning. I didn't expect to get shut out, but I wasn't entirely surprised by it either.

That lineup has the feeling of "We've won the series already, so winning today would be nice but not completely necessary." Lots of Dusty's Sunday lineups have that same feeling.

Nix should not play, period. Heisey has promise, he's a young guy. Play him whenever another outfielder sits. He should be getting much more playing time. He could be a big piece of the future of this team and him sitting over on the bench rotting is a horrible way to keep him growing. Dusty overrates the significance of the lefty-righty matchup with regularity.

Janish should be playing twice a week at shortstop. I think everyone knows he should play more but unfortunately it's just not going to happen, at least not this year. I'd prefer him to Cairo also because his defense is much better and offensively he's got more pop. He also runs better and is more likely to help the team score.

I'm fine with Corky catching every fifth day or so, but there was no reason that Hanigan couldn't have caught yesterday. So what if Miller had caught Wood previously? Hanigan is a smart guy and he's a very good receiver himself. We would not have lost anything IMO by starting Hanigan behind the plate. And of course even discussing offense between him and Corky is pointless.

Corky and Nix will be DFA'ed once Dickerson gets through with his rehab assignment and Hernandez is back healthy. That will improve out bench a lot I think. Then hopefully, crossing my fingers we pick up a decent bat through trade.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 03:09 PM
Dusty tanks Sundays:

6-9 record
and we've been shutout 5 of those 9 losses.

True.

But the Reds are 8-2 on Mondays after having a Sunday game.

DocRed
07-19-2010, 03:16 PM
True.

But the Reds are 8-2 on Mondays after having a Sunday game.

LOL, ya but what is their Tuesday record?? ;)

bounty37h
07-19-2010, 03:36 PM
Lets keep in mind as we throw our players under the bus that the guy who beat us is one of the worst hitters in MLB, asince we are worried we didnt ahve all our strongest players out there yesterday. I do agree and question why we do multiple players on same game, esp after all star break, but am not going ot lose sleep over it.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 03:45 PM
Reds are 4-1 on Mondays after losing on Sunday.

brm7675
07-19-2010, 03:58 PM
How is nix bad? Yes I don't want him as my everyday player, but how is he bad off the bench? Corkey is here because Ramon is on the DL and I can't believe I am saying this, Cairo has been WAY more productive then anyone thought he would and given what he is paid and can play 3rd and 1st, I have no issue. I mean sure I would love to have a bench of say Alex R., Albert P and maybe Hanley R. but what team has that kind of bench?


Laynce Nix is very bad
Corkey Miller is very bad
Cairo has been pretty bad his whole career, but had a super hotstreak so no one cares that his career OPS is in the .600s

Those 3 guys are pretty darn bad in my opinion. Janish doesnt play enough for us to know how bad he is.

Heisey might be the only bench player that I wouldnt label as bad.

Not saying those guys dont bring something to the table but when you rely on them to play, especially all 3 or 4 on the same day its going to be hard to win any games, and score a run.

brm7675
07-19-2010, 04:00 PM
Corky and Nix will be DFA'ed once Dickerson gets through with his rehab assignment and Hernandez is back healthy. That will improve out bench a lot I think. Then hopefully, crossing my fingers we pick up a decent bat through trade.

i would not bet the ranch on that, I wouldn't be surprised to see Heisey sent to AAA until rosters expand in Sept or someone else gets hurt.

ILoveWilly
07-19-2010, 04:02 PM
i would not bet the ranch on that, I wouldn't be surprised to see Heisey sent to AAA until rosters expand in Sept or someone else gets hurt.

If so, it would be the most retarded move of the year. Nix has all of a .265 OBP. He's horrible defensively. Hell, he's cost us a game defensively in the Braves meltdown. Keeping him on would just be a dumb, dumb move.

brm7675
07-19-2010, 04:05 PM
If so, it would be the most retarded move of the year. Nix has all of a .265 OBP. He's horrible defensively. Hell, he's cost us a game defensively in the Braves meltdown. Keeping him on would just be a dumb, dumb move.


Remember Dusty prefers vets over rookies and especially when in a playoff race. Plus come on you are basing his defensive ability off of one play?

ILoveWilly
07-19-2010, 04:06 PM
Remember Dusty prefers vets over rookies and especially when in a playoff race. Plus come on you are basing his defensive ability off of one play?

I'm not basing it off one game, but its a fact it's cost us a game. I thought it was a given that Dickerson and Heisey are way better in the OF than him. You're going to dispute that?

brm7675
07-19-2010, 04:09 PM
I'm not basing it off one game, but its a fact it's cost us a game. I thought it was a given that Dickerson and Heisey are way better in the OF than him. You're going to dispute that?

A) Dusty's horrible in game mang't cost us that game, not Nix
B) No I would with Nix/Heisey over Heisey/Dickerson because Dickerson can't stay healthy and doesn't wow me.
C) Dusty will go with Nix/Dickerson because he prefers vets over rookies and when it is all said and done that is the only opinion that matters.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 04:22 PM
How is nix bad? Yes I don't want him as my everyday player, but how is he bad off the bench? Corkey is here because Ramon is on the DL and I can't believe I am saying this, Cairo has been WAY more productive then anyone thought he would and given what he is paid and can play 3rd and 1st, I have no issue. I mean sure I would love to have a bench of say Alex R., Albert P and maybe Hanley R. but what team has that kind of bench?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/n/nixla01.shtml

His BA for his career is the low .200s. Hes hitting .225 this year after hitting .239 last year. batting average isnt everything but when your whole offensive production is based off your slugging putting the ball in play is kind of important. His OPS this season is .661. He strikes out 25% of the time and walks 5% of the time.

If hes your defensive OF or a guy you give guys off days for fine, but hes looked at as the LH power bat.

The problem with Cairo is that he is the go to RH bat off the bench now for Dusty and gets ton of playing time because we have to give Rolen so much time off. I dont mind Cairo, actually I really do but I know hes not going anywhere so I can justify him, but id really prefer to find someone else whos offensive production isnt related to slap singles.

the problem with the bench is outside of Hiesey none of them take walks, and when you have to play them you have to pray they get hits or you are likely looking at a 0-12 from 1/3 of your line up.

Yesterday the 2-4 in the line up went 4 for 12, the rest of the line up went 3 for 22 and 2 of those hits were Stubbs, and only 1 batter walked and it was intentional. The bench showed its ugly head yesterday.

The bench isnt all to blame Phillips had a bad day also, and no one walked because they swing like idiots some times, but still Nix, Miller, and Cairo went 1 for 10 and saw an average of 3.6 pitches including Nix late game AB that I think he saw 12 pitches in. They are free swingers and get out quick. Its a flaw that needs fixed.

ILoveWilly
07-19-2010, 04:32 PM
A) Dusty's horrible in game mang't cost us that game, not Nix
B) No I would with Nix/Heisey over Heisey/Dickerson because Dickerson can't stay healthy and doesn't wow me.
C) Dusty will go with Nix/Dickerson because he prefers vets over rookies and when it is all said and done that is the only opinion that matters.

Dickerson's numbers run circles around Nix. And if he's not healthy, then he goes to the DL and we call up someone else, so what kind of reasoning is that?

Look at the above post on how horrible Nix is. If you recall, he wasn't even originally signed to the major league team, he got a minor league deal. He adds nothing whatsoever.

brm7675
07-19-2010, 04:36 PM
Dickerson's numbers run circles around Nix. And if he's not healthy, then he goes to the DL and we call up someone else, so what kind of reasoning is that?

Look at the above post on how horrible Nix is. If you recall, he wasn't even originally signed to the major league team, he got a minor league deal. He adds nothing whatsoever.


He is a vet, that is what he offers and what Dusty loves. you all seem to forget whom is managing this team. IF Nix wasn't a Dusty boy then why is he on the roster.

However I believe it is all moot because Dusty's "real" boy will be up with the major league club in the next few weeks and starting in CF and then we will have Stubbs on the bench as out machine Gary Matthews Jr. is your starting CF and leadoff hitter....BANK ON IT.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 04:54 PM
Dusty tanks Sundays:

6-9 record
and we've been shutout 5 of those 9 losses.

That's really what it's all about. It's not a coincidence.

There is no doubt that this team would be better if Dusty wasn't the Manager. This team wins "in spite of" Dusty Baker.

kfm
07-19-2010, 06:42 PM
Yup and that obviously had no correlation to starting 3 players with a sub .300 OBP, two of which probably won't even be on the roster in a matter of a week.

Actually the problem was getting runners in.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 06:44 PM
Cairo in the lineup again today.

Dusty's gone to that well too many times.

The odds (Cairo sucks) have caught up with him.

Cairo has as much range as a turtle.

lidspinner
07-20-2010, 12:28 AM
Cairo in the lineup again today.

Dusty's gone to that well too many times.

The odds (Cairo sucks) have caught up with him.

Cairo has as much range as a turtle.


Cairo has proved he is viable...even with his good night tonight, I still want to see paul grab a start or 3 at 4rd when Rolen is out.

markymark69
07-20-2010, 12:08 PM
Remember Dusty prefers vets over rookies and especially when in a playoff race. Plus come on you are basing his defensive ability off of one play?

That's whay Stubbs, Bruce, Votto have played all the time from day they came up.

brm7675
07-20-2010, 12:17 PM
That's whay Stubbs, Bruce, Votto have played all the time from day they came up.

Well Stubbs had to wait until Willy T got hurt before he got a chance, so no Dusty went with the horrible vet until he got hurt before giving Stubbs a chance. As for Bruce or Votto, whom else do the Reds have to play those positions?

brm7675
07-20-2010, 12:18 PM
Cairo has proved he is viable...even with his good night tonight, I still want to see paul grab a start or 3 at 4rd when Rolen is out.


Who is the "Paul" guy you speak of?;)

markymark69
07-20-2010, 12:39 PM
Well Stubbs had to wait until Willy T got hurt before he got a chance, so no Dusty went with the horrible vet until he got hurt before giving Stubbs a chance. As for Bruce or Votto, whom else do the Reds have to play those positions?

He played Stubbs over Taveras came back. Bruce played center when he first came up over, guess who? Corey Patterson. He didn't move to right until Junior was traded. Patterson was only pressed back into service after both Dunn and Junior were traded.

Dusty also played Votto over Hatteberg.

So although Dusty's reputation says he prefers veterans, I have presented evidence that says that he will play younger guys if the younger guys are better.

brm7675
07-20-2010, 12:49 PM
He played Stubbs over Taveras came back. Bruce played center when he first came up over, guess who? Corey Patterson. He didn't move to right until Junior was traded. Patterson was only pressed back into service after both Dunn and Junior were traded.

Dusty also played Votto over Hatteberg.

So although Dusty's reputation says he prefers veterans, I have presented evidence that says that he will play younger guys if the younger guys are better.

No Taveras never came back from the injury, he didn't rehab like Dusty wanted him to so Stubbs continued to play. How long did Corey suck up AB's while he played over better younger talent? Why is Harang still in the rotation and will be upon his return when you have better younger options? Why was Orlando signed and then overplayed when it is clear his numbers at the plate are not that much better then Janish and considerably worse in the field? Why is Heisey sitting on the bench? Why was GMJ signed when his numbers at both LAA and NY show he can't play.

markymark69
07-20-2010, 02:26 PM
No Taveras never came back from the injury, he didn't rehab like Dusty wanted him to so Stubbs continued to play. How long did Corey suck up AB's while he played over better younger talent? Why is Harang still in the rotation and will be upon his return when you have better younger options? Why was Orlando signed and then overplayed when it is clear his numbers at the plate are not that much better then Janish and considerably worse in the field? Why is Heisey sitting on the bench? Why was GMJ signed when his numbers at both LAA and NY show he can't play.

Taveras came back last year and Stubbs still played - you can deny it if you want to - but it is a fact. The fact is when Bruce came up - Patterson went to the bench and only played regularly after Dunn and Griffey were traded. As far as Harang - let's wait to see how that plays out before we make an assumption that may or may not be true.

Orlando was signed most likely because they thought he was a better player than Janish? And although Cabrera is struggling, I would say that he is. He brings more to the table than Janish let me say that.

Where is Heisey going to play? Gomes is having a career year, Stubbs is handling CF just fine - perhaps Heisey could platoon with Bruce, but even you have talked up Bruce in other posts? So again I ask, where does Heisey play?

As far as GMJ ask Walt? But he hasn't taken one single at-bat away from anybody yet on the major league roster

brm7675
07-20-2010, 02:32 PM
Taveras came back last year and Stubbs still played - you can deny it if you want to - but it is a fact. The fact is when Bruce came up - Patterson went to the bench and only played regularly after Dunn and Griffey were traded. As far as Harang - let's wait to see how that plays out before we make an assumption that may or may not be true.

Orlando was signed most likely because they thought he was a better player than Janish? And although Cabrera is struggling, I would say that he is. He brings more to the table than Janish let me say that.

Where is Heisey going to play? Gomes is having a career year, Stubbs is handling CF just fine - perhaps Heisey could platoon with Bruce, but even you have talked up Bruce in other posts? So again I ask, where does Heisey play?

As far as GMJ ask Walt? But he hasn't taken one single at-bat away from anybody yet on the major league roster

Willy came back and sat the bench because he didn't do what he was expected to do. Had he done what Dusty had asked, I am willing to bet he would have played. Plus how in god's name do you accept the amount of time he played? He stunk, no wait he more then stunk and yet, just like C.Patterson, Dusty just kept running him out there. Now we are stuck with Orlando, who is stinking it up in the field and not doing much with the bat, yet Paul Janish can't sniff any playing time? Inexcussible. You play Heisey in all three slots, you "rotate" the players and get him in there, see that is what a "good" manager does, but wait you are happy that we are where we are, so why try to be better?

No but he is impeeding the advancement of other younger players who might actually bring something to the table as where we know GMJ won't. Why employ players you know suck?

markymark69
07-20-2010, 03:48 PM
Willy came back and sat the bench because he didn't do what he was expected to do. Had he done what Dusty had asked, I am willing to bet he would have played. Plus how in god's name do you accept the amount of time he played? He stunk, no wait he more then stunk and yet, just like C.Patterson, Dusty just kept running him out there. Now we are stuck with Orlando, who is stinking it up in the field and not doing much with the bat, yet Paul Janish can't sniff any playing time? Inexcussible. You play Heisey in all three slots, you "rotate" the players and get him in there, see that is what a "good" manager does, but wait you are happy that we are where we are, so why try to be better?

No but he is impeeding the advancement of other younger players who might actually bring something to the table as where we know GMJ won't. Why employ players you know suck?


Again - wrong. Based on what you have written Dusty should have played Taveras when he came back - he didn't he stayed with Stubbs.

Rotating? Who does that? Sparky really did a lot of that with the Big Red Machine and with those real good Detroit teams. LaRussa he rotates alot of guys, oh wait, he doesn't really. Davey Johnson stayed with pretty much the same line-up when he was manager of the Reds. Pete always professed to like a set line-up, I could go on. When I watch the Braves, I see the same guys pretty much out there.

We'll agree to disagree on Cabrera/Janish. If not playing Janish makes Dusty a bad manager then he is. You bring only speculation that Janish would do any better. You bring only speculation that Heisey would be better. No proof. Somebody is doing something right - the Reds are one of the better in baseball this year - a far cry from years past. Could they better? Sure. So could the Yankees, Cards, etc. There isn't a team out there (with maybe the exception of Baltimore) that couldn't say that.

I don't believe I ever said that I accepted the amount of playing time that Taveras got. I said that when Taverars (the veteran) returned from the injury Dusty stayed with the younger player (Stubbs) - the reason or reasons are irrelevant.

Listen for once. I'm happy with the Reds are based in comparison to where they've been. I don't we could have realistically expected much more.

It sounds like to me that you will only be happy if they go 162-0 and that's just not realistic.

brm7675
07-20-2010, 03:51 PM
It sounds like to me that you will only be happy if they go 162-0 and that's just not realistic.

No but anything under 93-95 wins by this team this season is sad, given the amount of talent on this team.

brm7675
07-20-2010, 03:54 PM
Listen for once. I'm happy with the Reds are based in comparison to where they've been. I don't we could have realistically expected much more.

.

So just as long as they improve on last years record you are happy? I'm not, and I expected this team from the start to contend for the division title and be a playoff contender. The "only' thing that has surprised me so far this season is Mike Leake, everyone else is doing what I expected. No wait, I figured Bruce would have a better season and so would Homer, and both have not.

markymark69
07-20-2010, 04:57 PM
So just as long as they improve on last years record you are happy? I'm not, and I expected this team from the start to contend for the division title and be a playoff contender. The "only' thing that has surprised me so far this season is Mike Leake, everyone else is doing what I expected. No wait, I figured Bruce would have a better season and so would Homer, and both have not.

They are contending for the division title, they are a playoff contender. I'm happy for that reason. You're the one picking every little thing they do apart.

brm7675
07-20-2010, 04:59 PM
They are contending for the division title, they are a playoff contender. I'm happy for that reason. You're the one picking every little thing they do apart.

No I am picking on our poor manager making poor decisions and costing this team games they should win.

GIDP
07-20-2010, 05:59 PM
People refer to Gomes having a career year, but dont consider in his lack of defense.

sivman17
07-20-2010, 06:03 PM
People refer to Gomes having a career year, but dont consider in his lack of defense.

But he's probably possessed the same lack of defense his whole career.

markymark69
07-20-2010, 06:39 PM
People refer to Gomes having a career year, but dont consider in his lack of defense.

As I have brought up before and no one has answered. Who was the last leftfielder the Reds had that was known for his defense?

BTW, Gomes made an impressive play last night.

bshall2105
07-20-2010, 06:41 PM
People refer to Gomes having a career year, but dont consider in his lack of defense.

Jonny had the number 3 web gem last night according to Bobby V, clearly Gomes is a stellar defender.

brm7675
07-20-2010, 06:41 PM
As I have brought up before and no one has answered. Who was the last leftfielder the Reds had that was known for his defense?

BTW, Gomes made an impressive play last night.

What does that have to do with anything. Gomes is a good player, not great, his hitting, unlike say our starting SS can cover for a good portion his poor play in the field.

markymark69
07-20-2010, 06:47 PM
What does that have to do with anything. Gomes is a good player, not great, his hitting, unlike say our starting SS can cover for a good portion his poor play in the field.

That's the point. Leftfield has always been a position of offense for the Reds not defense. Dunn, Vaughn, Mitchell, Daniels, Foster. None of them defensive stalwarts but they can hit. That's what it has to do with. Gomes' offense is why he plays, not his defense, same for the ones mentioned above.

The last one probably was Davis in 1990 and he played there because of his injuries and Billy Hatcher's play.

kfm
07-20-2010, 07:00 PM
Well Stubbs had to wait until Willy T got hurt before he got a chance, so no Dusty went with the horrible vet until he got hurt before giving Stubbs a chance. As for Bruce or Votto, whom else do the Reds have to play those positions?

Do you believe that the GM and the player development guys and the minor league coaches and managers have any say as to when a guy is ready to be in the majors? From the moment Stubbs made it to the Reds, Dusty has played him. Walt said from the very beginning when Stubbs and or Heisey are ready they will be on the major league roster. Was this just a boldface lie by Walt? Dusty has played Votto, Volquez, Bruce, Bailey, Ondrusec, Bray, DRH, Cueto, Leake etc. Name the young player on the 25 man roster who has been blocked from playing by a veteran who the young player was clearly better than. I know Dusty had that reputation but where is the proof since he has been here. He has been criticized on this board for putting young pitchers into spots people don't think he should trust them in. I can really only think of two cases, one is the current Janish and OCAB and then there is Ramon and Hanigan and I would suggest if these are the two best cases then this silliness should be put to rest.

Kiss the Baby00
07-20-2010, 10:59 PM
Do you believe that the GM and the player development guys and the minor league coaches and managers have any say as to when a guy is ready to be in the majors? From the moment Stubbs made it to the Reds, Dusty has played him. Walt said from the very beginning when Stubbs and or Heisey are ready they will be on the major league roster. Was this just a boldface lie by Walt? Dusty has played Votto, Volquez, Bruce, Bailey, Ondrusec, Bray, DRH, Cueto, Leake etc. Name the young player on the 25 man roster who has been blocked from playing by a veteran who the young player was clearly better than. I know Dusty had that reputation but where is the proof since he has been here. He has been criticized on this board for putting young pitchers into spots people don't think he should trust them in. I can really only think of two cases, one is the current Janish and OCAB and then there is Ramon and Hanigan and I would suggest if these are the two best cases then this silliness should be put to rest.

you jsut have to realize brm hates dusty and nothing dusty could do including winning the world series for the reds and winning manager of the year would make brm happy.