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redsfan_12
07-18-2010, 06:41 PM
On the way home I am listening to the Doc Rogers show and he is ranting about Stubbs and Bruce. Of all the outfielders we have, whether on the current roster or in the minors, who do you think should play everyday?

I really think you have to have Stubbs out there. I know he has his struggles at the plate, but when he's on, he's very good. Bruce is struggling badly, but he has a cannon. Gomes is well Gomes, inconsistent at the plate too, but the other two guys are solid defensive players. It's tough to sit Bruce, but I feel Heisey should be out there. Don't forget about Dickerson too. Just my opinion..

GIDP
07-18-2010, 06:43 PM
Stubbs Heisey Bruce

Give me that outfield and you can take any other version you can put out there.

lidspinner
07-18-2010, 06:50 PM
you cant play Bruce right now....is he the starter? Yes...does he need to sit when he goes into this same slump that he always goes in? Yes.....Jay Bruce is making the same mistakes that he makes every time he is in a slump. He swings at pitches that kids in little league dont swing at. He sits on fastball and lunges when its not a fastball.....at some point you either have to coach him to not do those things or sit him and let him know that is why you are sitting him.....he is so good that once he gets these slumps out of him, he is going to be a All Star staple in the OF. Jay Bruce is in a slump because of Jay Bruce....and that needs to be addressed. HE is still very young so he is going to come out of it.....but he needs to take his spot on the pine when he plays like this.

muddie
07-18-2010, 06:52 PM
Clearly, Heisey needs to play more or go back to Louisville. They are only retarding his progress the way they are using him now. He needs to play more often...somewhere.

Vottomatic
07-18-2010, 06:53 PM
Every time I count out Jonny Gomes, he comes up with a key hit in an rbi situation. He can go 0-4 in a game and then come up with a guy in scoring position and he'll knock him in some way. He has over 60 rbi's. He could possibly end up with 100 to 110 rbi for the season. How do you take him out?

Bruce DOESN'T HIT with RISP. He's terrible. He may have a cannon for an arm, but Heisey is no slouch. And in minimum duty, Heisey has hit more in the clutch than Bruce has in 2.5 years. I'm really down on Jay. I'd trade him in a heartbeat for a good return while he still has some value.

I'd trade Bruce, bring up Francisco. And I have no idea why Dusty can't platoon these guys.

LF Gomes (RH), Francisco (LH)
CF Stubbs (RH)
RF Heisey (RH), Nix (LH)

Frankly, next year I'd be happy with Nix gone and Danny Dorn as our LH bat off the bench and backup OFer/1Bman. He's played both at triple A this year.

kfm
07-18-2010, 08:19 PM
I think the three best are playing Gomes, Stubbs and Bruce. How do you sit Gomes who leads your team in RBI and while his defense is not great he has made strides. Stubbs batting seventh on a team with pop, speed, great arm, and lights out defense is not a guy I would sit. Then you have Bruce who is very young and fans seem to forget that at times. He is the least appreciated defensive player on this team. He gets to so many balls that look like hits, throws guys out and keeps guys from going first to third a lot and keeps double plays in order. He is still growing as a hitter and he has been up and down all year. Now, I would rest these guys from time to time and give Heisey and Nix a chance to play especially Heisey when a lefty is starting over Bruce.

Texas Pete
07-18-2010, 08:20 PM
Gomes, Stubbs and Bruce.

Rijo's Ghost
07-18-2010, 08:30 PM
BA w/ RISP has absolutely no predictive value. Outside of this season Bruce has more RBI than the average MLB hitter with his number of PA's. Keep in mind that Bruce is still only 23 years old, has been an MLB average hitter and a plus defender. The only knock against him is his walk rate, which is something that almost always gets better as a player ages. Trading Bruce now would be the epitome of selling low.

GIDP
07-18-2010, 08:31 PM
Bruce has also scored the 3rd highest runs on the team. It might be 4th with his recent slump.

kfm
07-18-2010, 08:36 PM
BA w/ RISP has absolutely no predictive value. Outside of this season Bruce has more RBI than the average MLB hitter with his number of PA's. Keep in mind that Bruce is still only 23 years old, has been an MLB average hitter and a plus defender. The only knock against him is his walk rate, which is something that almost always gets better as a player ages. Trading Bruce now would be the epitome of selling low.

Great post. Trading him rigtht now would be selling incredibly low. Having said that, if this organization was foolish enough to give up on a 23 year old like Jay Bruce they could still get good value for him because other GMs would covet a talent like him with his most productive years still 4 to 5 years away.

Eric the Red
07-18-2010, 08:40 PM
Gomes, Stubbs and Bruce.

If this team has a successful 2nd half these three have to be major contributors. I think Stubbs and Bruce have to play as their potential sets them apart. Both are still learning the game at this level and will only get better with experience imo. Gomes' statistics and leadership have earned him the 3rd spot over Dickerson.

Roush's socks
07-18-2010, 08:50 PM
Stubbs, Bruce, Gomes.

lidspinner
07-18-2010, 08:52 PM
I would not trade Jay at all....to young and to much upside. I see no way though that you guys think Nix has any value on this team at all...give me a guy that makes contact but less power and I take it....It just looks to me like Nix is always swinging for the fence when a simple fly ball or right side grounder would suffice just fine.

kfm
07-18-2010, 08:57 PM
I would not trade Jay at all....to young and to much upside. I see no way though that you guys think Nix has any value on this team at all...give me a guy that makes contact but less power and I take it....It just looks to me like Nix is always swinging for the fence when a simple fly ball or right side grounder would suffice just fine.

He seems like quite the guess hitter and despite his size and strength seems like he has only warning track opposite field power. His value however is that he does have some pop and that he can play all three outfield positions. Too bad Danny Dorn is not a better defender or he might be up here.

Eric the Red
07-18-2010, 09:04 PM
I would not trade Jay at all....to young and to much upside. I see no way though that you guys think Nix has any value on this team at all...give me a guy that makes contact but less power and I take it....It just looks to me like Nix is always swinging for the fence when a simple fly ball or right side grounder would suffice just fine.

I agree. I like Dickerson over Nix and think one of the reasons Nix may have gotten the start today was to see what value he has to the team. Someone else mentioned that Heisey needs to play and I agree it would benefit him in the long term to play, however in the short term he has been an excellent pinch hitter and team contributor so Heisey and Dickerson would be my backup outfielders with Nix being Designated for Assignment. Remember, if/when we recall Dickerson someone has to come off the 40-man and Nix is the logical choice imo.

DocRed
07-18-2010, 09:08 PM
If Nix doesn't get sent down the second Dickerson is ready......well I dunno what I am gonna do.

UC_Ken
07-18-2010, 09:39 PM
I find it interesting that Doc has lit up Bruce the last couple days but never brings up the name of Orlando Cabrera, who is by a longshot the worst hitter in the everyday lineup. OC is hitting 2nd and has an OBP well under .300. Unacceptable.

Krawhitham
07-18-2010, 10:13 PM
Gomes Heisey Bruce


I could care less about Stubbs 13 HR (5 of them in 2 games), It would be nice to be able to PR Stubbs late in close games

flash
07-18-2010, 10:40 PM
To be honest with you I rally don't like any of them very much.

Bruce is supposed to be a great hitter. He needs to show it

Stubbs has this great speed, but he can't bunt. Well, what is the point of speed then offensively.

Gomes is all right as a third outfielder, but that is all he is.

Nix is no longer major league material

Heisey needs more at bats to know what he can do.

Dickerson needs to get and stay healthy.

In the minors

Matthews at least looks like he is getting it together.

Dorn is better than Nix right now probably. So is Francisco.

Sappelt has nearly a .500 OBP for July. I know everyone says his batting style was bad at Dayton. Kinda hard to fake his numbers. (I know Bruce had the same type of numbers.)

couch_manager
07-18-2010, 10:48 PM
I like the starting outfield the way it is. You can argue that Heisey should start over Stubbs or that he should start over Gomes. But Stubbs brings more offensive and defensive speed and the two strikeout at about the same rate. Based on their HR rates, Heisey has more power but that is only based on his 70 AB's.

I don't think Heisey's progress is being hurt by keeping him up here. He's gaining valuable experience in other areas of his game and has already shown he can hit AAA pitching. He's not a top tier prospect anyway.

You don't replace Gomes with Heisey either. If you recall, Gomes was a key part of our offense earlier in the year and carried us for a while. At one point he led the league in RBI's. He wasn't going to hit .300 all year. He's in a slump right now, but you have to let him work through it.

Bruce is the guy I worry about. This is his third full season and I haven't seen any improvement. He kind of reminds me of Austin Kearns with the exception that Bruce has been healthier and Bruce hasn't been sent down to the minors to get his head straight like Kearns was. He's gotten a bit of a free pass. That said, there isn't someone on the roster that is an upgrade.

Rijo's Ghost
07-19-2010, 01:26 AM
Gomes is Gomes. He's not in some slump like people seem to think. He's hitting .277 .328 .477 .805. His career line is .246 .330 .472 .802.

sabometrics
07-19-2010, 01:55 AM
Jay is untouchable in my book. I don't care if his AVG w/RISP is poor, he has shown me enough to say that to consider trading him is out of the question.

Stubbs I don't like as much as Bruce, but I still want to see him everyday. The potential he has shown is a notch above Heisey imo. I like Heisey too, and think he could figure into the picture in the future, but I don't buy him as an everyday guy right now. Chris is very valuable to the MLB team right now and even if it means he doesn't get regular starting time you have to have him on the 25 man to contribute in a tight divisional race.

In LF I'm somewhat less certain. Gomes continues to come through in the clutch, and I love the fire that he brings to the team, but I want to see spelling him more, and Nix out there less and less. I want Nix off the 25-man ASAP when Dickerson is healthy.

Kiss the Baby00
07-19-2010, 02:05 AM
Gomes Heisey Bruce


I could care less about Stubbs 13 HR (5 of them in 2 games), It would be nice to be able to PR Stubbs late in close games

im with this guy.

stubbs is a career .269 hitter in the minors. why would he magically hit better than that in the majors? and 7 of his HRs are in 3 games. all 3 games the reds won by a blowout. Heisey over roughly the same amount of plate appearances hits .296 with much more power and surprisingly high amount of steals.

Gomes is easily the best hitter of any OF on our team. I dont get all the hate for the guy. All he does is come up clutch.

I still think Bruce is going to be a badass. I was expecting a big 2nd half from him. Hes been slow to produce so far. He is only 23 and he has a cannon in right. I would like to see him steal more and utilize his speed and not try to hit ever ball out of the park with that slow loopy swing

couch_manager
07-19-2010, 02:07 AM
Gomes is Gomes. He's not in some slump like people seem to think. He's hitting .277 .328 .477 .805. His career line is .246 .330 .472 .802.

Okay, so you just throw out what he's done thus far? If Gomes is Gomes, he's completely done for the year then. Because if we look at stats, he's already got 4 more RBI's than his career high for a season and we're only at the midway point.

sabometrics
07-19-2010, 02:12 AM
Okay, so you just throw out what he's done thus far? If Gomes is Gomes, he's completely done for the year then. Because if we look at stats, he's already got 4 more RBI's than his career high for a season and we're only at the midway point.

Most illogical post ever. Really hope this is sarcasm speaking.

couch_manager
07-19-2010, 02:16 AM
Most illogical post ever. Really hope this is sarcasm speaking.

:confused:
Of course it's sarcasm. :rolleyes: Why was that so hard for you to figure out? :dunno:

sabometrics
07-19-2010, 02:25 AM
I've had my share of high lifes and landsharks with the family tonight. Online sarcasm doesn't register after my B-A level disallows me from getting behind the wheel ;)

Rijo's Ghost
07-19-2010, 04:18 AM
Okay, so you just throw out what he's done thus far? If Gomes is Gomes, he's completely done for the year then. Because if we look at stats, he's already got 4 more RBI's than his career high for a season and we're only at the midway point.
Rate stats are completely different than counting stats. RBI, for example, are a completely team dependent statistic. It would be hard not to have a lot of RBI when you're batting behind 2 of the top 10 hitters in the league thus far. Gomes in 2009 had 51 RBI in 314 PA. In those 314 PA there were 206 runners on base. MLB average for that many PA was 197 runners on base. Through 316 PA this year Gomes had 61 RBI. In those 316 PA he had 232 runners on base. League average is 198.

This information leads us to a pretty obvious conclusion. Gomes, despite hitting to his career averages, has more RBI simply because he has had more runners on base.

couch_manager
07-19-2010, 05:06 AM
Rate stats are completely different than counting stats. RBI, for example, are a completely team dependent statistic. It would be hard not to have a lot of RBI when you're batting behind 2 of the top 10 hitters in the league thus far. Gomes in 2009 had 51 RBI in 314 PA. In those 314 PA there were 206 runners on base. MLB average for that many PA was 197 runners on base. Through 316 PA this year Gomes had 61 RBI. In those 316 PA he had 232 runners on base. League average is 198.

This information leads us to a pretty obvious conclusion. Gomes, despite hitting to his career averages, has more RBI simply because he has had more runners on base.

I really appreciate your ability to sound smart, but having 61 RBI's simply because Votto and Rolen were on base more than the league average does not tell the whole story.

Gomes is batting .408 with RISP this year vs. last year's .292 with roughly the same number of AB's. His slugging percentage with RISP is .803 this year vs. last year's .542. His strikeout rate is down significantly this year as well. He's having a career year.

KOBasinger
07-19-2010, 09:40 AM
Gomes , Stubbs , Bruce . Heisey needs PT a lot more though.

MrMcConnell
07-19-2010, 11:30 AM
Stubbs Heisey Bruce

Give me that outfield and you can take any other version you can put out there.

You really think Heisey is better than Gomes?

MrMcConnell
07-19-2010, 11:32 AM
I would not trade Jay at all....to young and to much upside. I see no way though that you guys think Nix has any value on this team at all...give me a guy that makes contact but less power and I take it....It just looks to me like Nix is always swinging for the fence when a simple fly ball or right side grounder would suffice just fine.

I wouldn't trade Jay either, but his lack of progress is bothersome. Sure, he's improved this year, but he still hasn't figured out to hit w/ RISP and K's in too many key situations for a guy who's as talented as he is. he just looks completely clueless at the plate at times. His progress just isn't fast enough with what you'd expect from a guy with so many expectations.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 11:52 AM
You really think Heisey is better than Gomes?

Yes

brm7675
07-19-2010, 11:57 AM
Your first mistake was listening to Doc Rogers. There is a reason his time in MLB managment came with Jim Bowden and why he has not returned. It's incredible WLW allows him to portray himself as some kind of knowledgeable person. The Reds OF should be a rotation of the 4 we have, with Heisey giving players days off.


On the way home I am listening to the Doc Rogers show and he is ranting about Stubbs and Bruce. Of all the outfielders we have, whether on the current roster or in the minors, who do you think should play everyday?

I really think you have to have Stubbs out there. I know he has his struggles at the plate, but when he's on, he's very good. Bruce is struggling badly, but he has a cannon. Gomes is well Gomes, inconsistent at the plate too, but the other two guys are solid defensive players. It's tough to sit Bruce, but I feel Heisey should be out there. Don't forget about Dickerson too. Just my opinion..

brm7675
07-19-2010, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=flash;2162544]
Matthews at least looks like he is getting it together.

QUOTE]

This statement alone had me laughing on the floor and pretty much discount all your other points.

Rijo's Ghost
07-19-2010, 12:40 PM
I really appreciate your ability to sound smart, but having 61 RBI's simply because Votto and Rolen were on base more than the league average does not tell the whole story.

Gomes is batting .408 with RISP this year vs. last year's .292 with roughly the same number of AB's. His slugging percentage with RISP is .803 this year vs. last year's .542. His strikeout rate is down significantly this year as well. He's having a career year.
Of course it doesn't tell the whole story, but it tells the whole story of why he has so many RBI. If those runners weren't on, but he hit exactly the same in each at bat you wouldn't be claiming that he's having a career year.

couch_manager
07-19-2010, 12:57 PM
Of course it doesn't tell the whole story, but it tells the whole story of why he has so many RBI. If those runners weren't on, but he hit exactly the same in each at bat you wouldn't be claiming that he's having a career year.

Okay. Fine. Are you just here to pick apart everybody's posts? You haven't even answered the OP's question. Who do YOU want in the outfield?

Rijo's Ghost
07-19-2010, 01:09 PM
Okay. Fine. Are you just here to pick apart everybody's posts? You haven't even answered the OP's question. Who do YOU want in the outfield?

Stubbs/Dickerson when healthy in center
Bruce/Heisey in right
Heisey/Gomes platoon in left (Heisey playing the majority of the time, Gomes against all lefties)

Trying to make it the "3 best" is just pigeonholing. Basically use the platoon advantage as much as possible.

Hey Meat
07-19-2010, 01:12 PM
Stubbs Bruce Gomes-I like Heisey, but I would much rather have him be a pinch hitter that Jonny Gomes. Jonny would get up there and hack. Heisey is clutch. Good guy to have as a pinch hitter and occasional starter.

couch_manager
07-19-2010, 01:14 PM
Stubbs/Dickerson when healthy in center
Bruce in right
Heisey/Gomes platoon in left (Heisey playing the majority of the time, Gomes against all lefties)

Trying to make it the "3 best" is just pigeonholing.

Wow, that's a noncommittal answer. Way to put yourself out there! :rolleyes:

Rijo's Ghost
07-19-2010, 01:16 PM
Wow, that's a noncommittal answer. Way to put yourself out there! :rolleyes:

There's no reason to "commit." Platoon advantages are very real and should be used as often as possible with a deep outfield.

1990REDS
07-19-2010, 05:17 PM
Today-Bruce, Gomes, Stubbs
Opening day 2011-Bruce, Hiesey, Stubbs

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 06:18 PM
3 Best Outfielders?

Votto, Heisey and Bruce.