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sivman17
07-19-2010, 03:51 PM
Phillips 4
Cabrera 6
Votto 3
Gomes 7
Bruce 9
Cairo 5
Stubbs 8
Hanigan 2
Cueto 1

vs. J.D. Martin (1-4, 3.35 ERA)

sabometrics
07-19-2010, 03:58 PM
Still no rolen ... and still no Janish getting the start in place of him. Sigh.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 04:03 PM
In his last 3 starts, Martin is 1-1 with 3.00 ERA and 8 Ks in 15.0 IP. He is coming off his first win of the season, a 7-6 victory over the Padres. He gave up two runs on six hits in 5 2/3 innings. Martin is 1-0 against the Reds in his career.

In his career, he's only faced three batters in the Reds lineup:
Phillips: 0-2
Votto: 1-2, 1 RBI
Hanigan: 0-3

sivman17
07-19-2010, 04:05 PM
Still no rolen ... and still no Janish getting the start in place of him. Sigh.

John Fay just reported that he is dealing with a right hamstring and the flu. He got a cortisone shot and is day to day.

This is not good. I had no idea he had a hamstring issue.

FlyerFanatic
07-19-2010, 04:06 PM
janish doesnt get a start? really? come on dusty, what did janish do to you?

GIDP
07-19-2010, 04:29 PM
I hope they are a little more patient than they have been recently. No more 4 PA with 9 total pitches please. L(

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 04:31 PM
Gar. I was hoping to see Heisey. Oh well let's get one!

1990REDS
07-19-2010, 04:31 PM
I hope they are a little more patient than they have been recently. No more 4 PA with 9 total pitches please. L(

i agree, i dont care whos playing as long as they can work a pitch count.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 05:12 PM
Anyone remember when Phillips ran over the catcher this year?

Yea that was against the nationals.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:06 PM
Here we go

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:16 PM
Cueto looking good so far.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:17 PM
Patience here

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:18 PM
Let's see if the REDS can take more than 2 pitches per at-bat tonight.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:19 PM
It took Phillips 3 pitches to make an out. That's an improvement.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:19 PM
3 pitches 1 out for the nat.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:19 PM
4 pitches 2 outs...

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:19 PM
Here we go again

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:19 PM
we are up there hacking again at the first pitch..

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:20 PM
Cabrera makes up for it and gets out on 1 pitch.

Unbelievable.

Cabrera is a joke.

Nix is a joke.

Cairo is a joke.

Baker is a joke.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:21 PM
Called strike on a ball in the other batters box.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:21 PM
3-0 Phills in the 1st :D

Rijo's Ghost
07-19-2010, 07:21 PM
janish doesnt get a start? really? come on dusty, what did janish do to you?

Be a bad hitter his entire career?

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:22 PM
Votto has seen 2 more pitches than Phillips and Cabrera did combined.

11 pitches for the Nats pitcher. Looks like we are going to be saying something similar to "72 pitches through 8"

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:22 PM
Be a bad hitter his entire career?

He doesn't have a career.

This is his 2nd season.

He had half a season last year.

He's OPS'-ing nearly .400 in his 2nd season.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:22 PM
At least that was an at-bat, as opposed to those first two pitiful efforts by Phillips and Cabrera.

FlyerFanatic
07-19-2010, 07:24 PM
Be a bad hitter his entire career?

i see why you have 17 posts. not very bright.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:24 PM
Votto has seen 2 more pitches than Phillips and Cabrera did combined.

11 pitches for the Nats pitcher. Looks like we are going to be saying something similar to "72 pitches through 8"

I really wish Cabrera would get injured and go on the 60-day DL. Something out of Baker's control has to remove him from Baker's control. The same goes with Cairo.

Rijo's Ghost
07-19-2010, 07:24 PM
He doesn't have a career.

This is his 2nd season.

He had half a season last year.

He's OPS'-ing nearly .400 in his 2nd season.

Yeah, he really crushed in the minors.

AA - .245 .356 .330 .686
AAA - .240 .306 .360 .666

He is not a good hitter.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:25 PM
Ump is calling the strike zone pretty darn wide against lefties so far.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:25 PM
Cmon Johnny

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:25 PM
Yeah, he really crushed in the minors.

AA - .245 .356 .330 .686
AAA - .240 .306 .360 .666

He is not a good hitter.

Neither is Cabrera or Cairo.

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 07:26 PM
I saw an interesting thread on The Old Red Guard on plate discipline and how part of it is not just working the count and making the pitcher throw pitches, bit it's also recognizing and hitting hittable pitches, even if it's the very first pitch of the at bat.

I'm inclined to agree. If the first pitch is a hittable pitch, why take it? The first pitch to Phillips was right down the middle and he took it. That's fine as well, because it's better than making an out on the first pitch. To this somewhat untrained eye the pitch Cabrera swung at looked plenty hittable as well. He just didn't do anything with it.

FlyerFanatic
07-19-2010, 07:26 PM
Yeah, he really crushed in the minors.

AA - .245 .356 .330 .686
AAA - .240 .306 .360 .666

He is not a good hitter.

such a terrible player..thats why hes in the majors, right? :rolleyes:

Rijo's Ghost
07-19-2010, 07:26 PM
i see why you have 17 posts. not very bright.

Judging him based on 64 PA this season instead of 6 years of PA's is really bright. :rolleyes:

Rijo's Ghost
07-19-2010, 07:27 PM
Neither is Cabrera or Cairo.

Also true.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:27 PM
Yeah, he really crushed in the minors.

AA - .245 .356 .330 .686
AAA - .240 .306 .360 .666

He is not a good hitter.

Doesn't matter what happened in the minors.

The Padres are full of players doing well right now who stunk in the minors.

Janish doesn't have to be a Hall-of-Fame hitter, despite your desires for him to be so that he can be worthy to play. He only has to have 3 months of decent hitting. He doesn't even have to do as great as he's done the last 3 months....just a little bit. His Defense far makes up for any Offense that Cabrera could possibly deliver.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:27 PM
DP ends the inning.

Come on reds put some offense on the board.

DocRed
07-19-2010, 07:28 PM
Say what you want about Janish's offense, but his defense is positively GG caliber, which at SS is probably more meaningful than any other position.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:28 PM
Nats fail to get the ball out of the infield again against Cueto.

It's getting boring in the Outfield for the REDS.

Cairo hasn't had to matador anything, yet.

Cueto is keeping the ball away from Cairo.

FlyerFanatic
07-19-2010, 07:29 PM
Say what you want about Janish's offense, but his defense is positively GG caliber, which at SS is probably more meaningful than any other position.

its not that i even want janish to start. but he needs a few starts each week. its unreal how little time he gets.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:30 PM
gomes with a single...

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:30 PM
leadoff hit baby!!!

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:31 PM
its not that i even want janish to start. but he needs a few starts each week. its unreal how little time he gets.

That's all anybody asks.

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 07:31 PM
Doesn't matter what happened in the minors.

The Padres are full of players doing well right now who stunk in the minors.

Janish doesn't have to be a Hall-of-Fame hitter, despite your desires for him to be so that he can be worthy to play. He only has to have 3 months of decent hitting. He doesn't even have to do as great as he's done the last 3 months....just a little bit. His Defense far makes up for any Offense that Cabrera could possibly deliver.

I'm inclined to agree. I don't dislike having Cabrera on the team. I don't know/recall how much we're paying him, but I'm sure we didn't break the bank. He seems like a swell guy, and early in the year he was always coming through in key situations. Now though, not so much. I was hoping he'd hit for a bit more pop in this ball park the way he started this year. But he hasn't homered since May 5th.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:31 PM
bruce is due...

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:31 PM
This strike zone looks pretty huge

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:32 PM
This guy hasnt throw a strike to bruce yet its 3 balls 2 strikes.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:32 PM
3-2. Throw a curve in the dirt

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:33 PM
I'm inclined to agree. I don't dislike having Cabrera on the team. I don't know/recall how much we're paying him, but I'm sure we didn't break the bank. He seems like a swell guy, and early in the year he was always coming through in key situations. Now though, not so much. I was hoping he'd hit for a bit more pop in this ball park the way he started this year. But he hasn't homered since May 5th.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone is against Cabrera. He comes up with key hits as a good Veteran does. It's just the "everyday" thing that drives all of us mad, when all of us know that both Cabrera would be better off with a day or two a week of rest, and the team would be better with better defense (and better Offense at times) with Janish in the lineup.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:33 PM
I'd be embarrassed to be Martin. Lol

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:33 PM
walked him...2 on for cairo!!! come on miggy!!!!

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:34 PM
Bruce does what he does, and walks when he realizes they will not throw him a strike with Cairo and Stubbs hitting behind him.

I have no doubt he could walk every AB if he just stood there with his bat on his shoulder.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:34 PM
btw st louis scores..3-1 phillies.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:34 PM
Great at-bat there.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:35 PM
Veterans come through.

Let's go Cairo.

This is your most important at-bat of the game.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:35 PM
So they are going to bunt Cairo with Stubbs up after?

I guess they took it off.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:36 PM
So they are going to bunt Cairo with Stubbs up after?

I guess they took it off.

Dusty's beyond desperate.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:36 PM
come on miggy!! please deliver...

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:36 PM
2-2...

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:37 PM
Wow they are just giving this AB up.

Bunt pulled it back, then he swung away, then he bunts again and it goes foul. What is this crap.

DocRed
07-19-2010, 07:37 PM
Desperado.......why don't you come to your senses.....

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:37 PM
Wow they are just giving this AB up.

Bunt pulled it back, then he swung away, then he bunts again and it goes foul. What is this crap.

Bakometrics at it's finest.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:37 PM
I hope the Reds are noticing that this guy cant throw a breakin ball for a strike.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:38 PM
Bakometrics at it's finest.

Put a lousy hitter/fielder in the lineup and then make him bunt in an early "let him hit" situation.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:38 PM
Chucked no outs!

We might get one...

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:39 PM
basesloaded for stubbs...we need to score here, no doubt about it.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:39 PM
Hey look at that instead of a bunt and an out he walked...

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:39 PM
The opposing pitcher bails out Dusty.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:39 PM
we don't score here, we don't deserve to win.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:39 PM
Nice Drew!!!

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:39 PM
We score first.

Funny what happens when you let them hit.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:40 PM
I dont know what just happened but Stubbs almost ran to 3rd but lucked out when Dunn couldnt catch it.

2 run double, 2nd and 3rd.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:40 PM
Harris should have caught that

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:40 PM
Like our announcer says....the Nats can't field, so put the ball in play and make them make the plays. ......rather than give away outs with a bunt attempt.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:40 PM
stubbs has been playing awesome lately..

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:41 PM
stubbs has been playing awesome lately..

Hes basically been awesome since he stopped leading off. Mid .800s OPS

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:41 PM
3-0 to hanigan..basesloaded could be for cueto..

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:41 PM
Now, we've got one of our most professional hitters up in Hanigan.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:41 PM
Looks like the decent hitting Reds have shown up tonight.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:42 PM
Thanks Martin

arkimadee
07-19-2010, 07:42 PM
Cueto should not swing the bat here

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:42 PM
i agree, martin is not coming close to the strikezone...

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:42 PM
I'm guessing that Cueto takes more pitches than either Phillips or Cabrera.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:42 PM
Cueto should not swing the bat here

Agree. Id take the K or a BB over the chances Cueto punches a single somewhere.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:42 PM
Don't swing!!

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 07:43 PM
This Martin looks like the type of pitcher that would have been in the Reds rotation in the early 2000's... no fastball or much of anything else at all, the type who only makes major league starts because his team and pitching rotation is that bad, or someone better is hurt.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:43 PM
The Nats haven't scored in their last 23 innings.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:43 PM
Nice!!!

arkimadee
07-19-2010, 07:43 PM
haha thank god you swung there Cueto..

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:43 PM
BRB bathroom after that hit.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:44 PM
here comes bp!!

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:44 PM
Cueto sees 3 pitches.

What's the over/under that Phillips and Cabrera sees 3 pitches combined? I say they only see 3 pitches, despite the fact that the Pitcher can't get the ball over the plate.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:45 PM
Phillips has been struggling just as much as anyone with RISP

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:45 PM
Who is this Cincinnati scorekeeper?

How are there no errors by the Nats? Guess he's trying to inflate the REDS' player's averages.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:45 PM
martin is all over the place...

leeech86
07-19-2010, 07:45 PM
I smell a home rune!!!

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:45 PM
reminds me of jimmy haynes hahah

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:46 PM
Phillips is learning.

He lets two balls go by.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:46 PM
Magic things happen when you dont swing at everything.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:46 PM
Terrible Ab

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:47 PM
Ball close to strike zone, must swing

Reds mantra at times.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:47 PM
This is Cairo's saving-grace situation this year....hitting w/ RISP.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:47 PM
phillips is in a major slump..

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:47 PM
except for that homerun the other night...

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:47 PM
Go figure

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:47 PM
Amazing

leeech86
07-19-2010, 07:48 PM
Hu...

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:48 PM
3 pitches for Cabrera and hes been the cause of 3 outs.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:48 PM
Cabrera's learning, too.

It took him two pitches that time to make 2 outs instead of 1 pitch and 1 out.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 07:48 PM
we need to address the shortstop position...I dont care who you are.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:49 PM
phillips is in a major slump..

Hes been terrible with runners on base all year.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 07:49 PM
I saw an interesting thread on The Old Red Guard on plate discipline and how part of it is not just working the count and making the pitcher throw pitches, bit it's also recognizing and hitting hittable pitches, even if it's the very first pitch of the at bat.

I'm inclined to agree. If the first pitch is a hittable pitch, why take it? The first pitch to Phillips was right down the middle and he took it. That's fine as well, because it's better than making an out on the first pitch. To this somewhat untrained eye the pitch Cabrera swung at looked plenty hittable as well. He just didn't do anything with it.

I agree with this to an extent. When I played baseball it seemed like the first pitch was right down the middle a lot of the times. If I was looking for a first pitch fastball down the middle and it was the first pitch then why wait for it?

However, it does seem if you watch a couple pitches you could get your timing down. But, I guess they do that while they are in on-deck circle.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:49 PM
Shouldve blown it open there

sivman17
07-19-2010, 07:50 PM
If there were no outs, that would've been a triple play. Cabrera sucks

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:51 PM
I agree with this to an extent. When I played baseball it seemed like the first pitch was right down the middle a lot of the times. If I was looking for a first pitch fastball down the middle and it was the first pitch then why wait for it?

However, it does seem if you watch a couple pitches you could get your timing down. But, I guess they do that while they are in on-deck circle.

If the pitcher knows you're a free-swinging batter, you're rarely going to get 1st pitch fastballs down the middle. Usually, it will be a ball on the edge of the strikezone. Or, there will be a first pitch non-fastball strike, and never a strike again for the rest of the at-bat.

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 07:52 PM
Shouldve blown it open there

Hopefully 4-0 is "blowing it open" to an extent. Cueto has been pitching well (actually they pretty much all have) and the Nationals are not a good team.

Really I would hope that margin would hold up even at this point in the game. No reason to let the Nationals get back into it. Of course, walking weak hitters doesn't help.

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 07:53 PM
How quickly it is forgotten that OCab was 5-11 against Colorado becuase he starts off 0-2.

He has looked much better at the plate and in the field with the all-star break rest. Now if he could just get 1 or 2 days a weeks rest outside an off-day he would probably hit .280.

The OCab/Janish combo should be like Ramon and Hanigan last year, that way you keep OCab fresh and don't over expose Janish, thus probably maximizing your SS position.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:53 PM
Cueto walks the wost hitter on the Nats. Reds make habbits of this quite often it seems.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:53 PM
Willie Harris only batting .177, but that was a perfect at-bat that Washington needed right now to get back in this game.

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 07:54 PM
Ok, here's what I'm not getting. Was Welsh just explaining it wrong? He said the second base umpire was signaling that the SS didn't catch that liner on the fly, but then he tosses to second, they tag Hanigan coming back and it's a double play?:confused:

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:55 PM
Willie Harris only batting .177, but that was a perfect at-bat that Washington needed right now to get back in this game.

It buys their pitcher Martin some time...it shows others how to be patient with Cueto. It gives them a small chance to get one run this inning (bottom of the lineup is up for Washington, so it's hard even with the first man on base).

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:55 PM
Geez Johhny

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:56 PM
Cueto making me want to kill someone right now.

Throws strikes, then throws balls until its a full counts then gives up singles. Mean while these are 2 of the Nats worst hitters...

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:56 PM
He has looked much better at the plate and in the field with the all-star break rest. Now if he could just get 1 or 2 days a weeks rest outside an off-day he would probably hit .280.

The OCab/Janish combo should be like Ramon and Hanigan last year, that way you keep OCab fresh and don't over expose Janish, thus probably maximizing your SS position.

That's all any of us want, isn't it?

sivman17
07-19-2010, 07:56 PM
Ok, here's what I'm not getting. Was Welsh just explaining it wrong? He said the second base umpire was signaling that the SS didn't catch that liner on the fly, but then he tosses to second, they tag Hanigan coming back and it's a double play?:confused:

he explained it right.. first base runner was out at 2nd b/c fielder touched 2nd base. then they tagged hanigan

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:57 PM
This should be interesting

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 07:57 PM
Cueto making me want to kill someone right now.

Throws strikes, then throws balls until its a full counts then gives up singles. Mean while these are 2 of the Nats worst hitters...

They may be their worst hitters, but those were really good at-bats.

I don't blame Cueto for "letting up".

He's just got to go after it here.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:57 PM
sac bunt guy moves from 1st to 2nd

1 out.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 07:58 PM
4-1

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 07:58 PM
That's all any of us want, isn't it?

No.... I want a World Series winner!

And maybe 10 million dollars. I won't get too greedy and ask for 100 million.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 07:58 PM
They may be their worst hitters, but those were really good at-bats.

I don't blame Cueto for "letting up".

He's just got to go after it here.

It seems to be a reoccurring thing with Cueto.

Sac fly. Nats score first run in 23 innings.

Note to Reds, lead off walks tend to score.

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 07:59 PM
he explained it right.. first base runner was out at 2nd b/c fielder touched 2nd base. then they tagged hanigan

Ok, I think I've got ya. Force at second because Cueto was running, tag of Hanigan when he came back.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 08:00 PM
4-2 directly linked to walking and going full to the Nats 2 worst hitters.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:00 PM
4-0 is definitely not "putting things away".

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 08:00 PM
My god

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:01 PM
That was all done by the excellent at-bat by Willie Harris. Basically the opposite of what Cabrera usually gives the team. Cabrera deflates rallies.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 08:01 PM
Cueto gives up a liner, but it was straight at the statue standing at SS for the final out.

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 08:02 PM
That's all any of us want, isn't it?

I feel like some do, and I feel like other want OCab off the face of the planet, and I feel like others think Janish is as good as Dusty thinks he is.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 08:02 PM
Cueto gives up a liner, but it was straight at the statue standing at SS for the final out.

:laugh:

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:03 PM
I can't believe we have 4 runs today. I would have guessed we'd have 2 or less at the end of the night.

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 08:03 PM
4-0 is definitely not "putting things away".

It should be when you've got several more innings to score yourself against the other team's bullpen, and a pitcher who should handle the other team with ease.

Of course, at 4-2 now, it's already much more interesting.

Seriously though, Cueto should have been able to cruise with that team if he stayed focused.

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 08:04 PM
I get up for 5 minutes, come back and we give up 2...just glorious!

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 08:04 PM
1 damn pitch 1 damn out

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:05 PM
Votto has no patience....literally (he's among the 5 worst in all of baseball swinging at the first pitch).

You can get away with it when you're as good as he is, though.

Redlegs_87
07-19-2010, 08:05 PM
Bats wake up and now they shut down great.

FlyerFanatic
07-19-2010, 08:05 PM
1 damn pitch 1 damn out

bakermetrics....hack away

GIDP
07-19-2010, 08:05 PM
:(

GIDP
07-19-2010, 08:06 PM
Why does every ball on the outside corner get called on Bruce? thats the 3rd one this game that was outside.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:06 PM
J. D. Martin isn't giving Bruce anything to swing at.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:06 PM
That should have been a 4-pitch walk.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 08:07 PM
What was that a 9 pitch inning?

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:08 PM
At least Bruce tried to buy Cueto a little time.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 08:08 PM
Im just going to believe that they are trying to get through 5 ASAP, even though I know thats not really the reason.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:08 PM
Votto has no patience....literally (he's among the 5 worst in all of baseball swinging at the first pitch).

You can get away with it when you're as good as he is, though.

So what does this tell you. Perhaps patience has no correlation to getting hits. Thus, perhaps we should quit worrying about Reds batters swinging at the first pitch if it's perfect.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:09 PM
If Cabrera actually got on base once in a while, Joey Votto wouldn't swing at so many 1st pitches. But, Votto's usually coming up to bat with nobody on base.

It'd be amazing how well Votto would be if the opposing pitcher actually had to pitch with runners on base once in a while.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 08:09 PM
So what does this tell you. Perhaps patience has no correlation to getting hits. Thus, perhaps we should quit worrying about Reds batters swinging at the first pitch if it's perfect.

Swinging at the first pitch is fine when you get hits. Other guys tend to just pop out.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:10 PM
So what does this tell you. Perhaps patience has no correlation to getting hits. Thus, perhaps we should quit worrying about Reds batters swinging at the first pitch if it's perfect.

I said what it tells me in the second sentence that I wrote.

When you're as good as Votto, the impatience at the plate doesn't show up as much.

If Votto was more patient, he'd have Lou Gehrig type of numbers. (actually, he wouldn't have the RBI's, because someone would have to actually get on base in front of him)

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:11 PM
Alright.

Who brought the rain with them?

Brisco
07-19-2010, 08:11 PM
You gotta be kidding me! I finally bite the bullet and subscribe to mlb tv and then and soon as i get it to work, its a rain delay. :(

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:12 PM
You gotta be kidding me! I finally bite the bullet and subscribe to mlb tv and then and soon as i get it to work, its a rain delay. :(

It's a conspiracy. Go knock down a Benedict Arnold plaque and change the Karma.

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 08:16 PM
So what does this tell you. Perhaps patience has no correlation to getting hits. Thus, perhaps we should quit worrying about Reds batters swinging at the first pitch if it's perfect.

In fact Votto is hitting .404 on the 1st pitch, I would be mad if he started taking a strike.

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 08:17 PM
If this delay lasts a while, we may have a Micah Owings sighting.

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 08:18 PM
In fact Votto is hitting .404 on the 1st pitch, I would be mad if he started taking a strike.

And Bruce is hitting .395 on the 1st pitch.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:18 PM
Rain delay trivia: who won the MVP the year that Ted Williams hit .406?

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 08:19 PM
And Bruce is hitting .395 on the 1st pitch.

And Phillips is hitting .373 on the 1st pitch...and OCab sucks on the 1st pitch.

Indy_Reds_Fan
07-19-2010, 08:19 PM
Rain delay trivia: who won the MVP the year that Ted Williams hit .406?

Joltin Joe wasn't it? I think that was the year of his hitting streak.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 08:19 PM
Rain delay trivia: who won the MVP the year that Ted Williams hit .406?

Dimaggio

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:20 PM
And Phillips is hitting .373 on the 1st pitch...and OCab sucks on the 1st pitch.

where you finding these stats? just curious

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 08:21 PM
where you finding these stats? just curious

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5668/situational;_ylt=AohszjLOkYRrBvNdirG63OSFCLcF

Go to the player profile on yahoo, then go to situational stats and look for the 0-0 count.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:22 PM
Joltin Joe wasn't it? I think that was the year of his hitting streak.

Dimaggio is correct, despite not having nearly as good of numbers.

Joe: .357 BA, 1.083 OPS, 30 HR, 125 RBI
Ted: .406 BA, 1.287 OPS, 37 HR, 120 RBI

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:23 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5668/situational;_ylt=AohszjLOkYRrBvNdirG63OSFCLcF

Go to the player profile on yahoo, then go to situational stats and look for the 0-0 count.

:beerme:

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:24 PM
And Bruce is hitting .395 on the 1st pitch.

Edgar Martinez hit .432 on the first pitch in '95.

The point is that Votto would hit better if he was more patient AND if he had an actual Major League hitter batting 2nd in front of him.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:26 PM
What's surprising about Cabrera is that he hits .241 on the first pitch. He hits .326 with a 0-1 count and .256 with a 1-0 count.

Basically, he should wait till the 2nd pitch every AB.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:27 PM
The goal of any at-bat by a hitter is to get the pitcher to throw you the pitch you want to hit. That changes from at-bat to at-bat. Sometimes it's the first pitch, but for a great hitter, it will usually be a pitch much later in the count.

It's baseball 101 that the best pitch outcomes are 3-0, followed by 2-0, followed by 3-1. You can't get to that if you are swinging at the first pitch.

A great hitter sets up the pitcher, not the other way around.

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 08:28 PM
What's surprising about Cabrera is that he hits .241 on the first pitch. He hits .326 with a 0-1 count and .256 with a 1-0 count.

Basically, he should wait till the 2nd pitch every AB.

But only if it's a strike.;)

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 08:29 PM
Edgar Martinez hit .432 on the first pitch in '95.

The point is that Votto would hit better if he was more patient AND if he had an actual Major League hitter batting 2nd in front of him.

Edgar also hit .390 for his career on the 1st pitch.

Votto has hit .396 on the 1st pitch over his whole career. It is not a result of Votto being an impatient hitter, its that Votto recognizes a hittable 1st pitch and puts a good hack on it. It's pretty hard to assume that Votto would put up better numbers if he swung less on the 1st pitch.

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 08:31 PM
I was going to make a joke about Dimaggio winning the MVP over Ted Williams with lesser numbers was because he was married to Marilyn Monroe, and that put him over the top with the voters. But that came later on.

I was actually impressed by this though... seems rather classy and respectful... it's from Wikipedia.

According to Maury Allen, DiMaggio was so alarmed at how Monroe had fallen in with people he felt detrimental to her well-being, he quit his job with a military post-exchange supplier on August 1, 1962 to ask her to remarry him; she was found dead on August 5. DiMaggio's son, Joe Jr., had spoken to Monroe on the phone the night of her death, and had claimed she seemed fine.[11] Her death was deemed a probable suicide but has been the subject of endless conspiracy theories. Devastated, he claimed her body and arranged her funeral, barring Hollywood's elite. He had a half-dozen red roses delivered 3 times a week to her crypt for 20 years.[12] Unlike her other two husbands or others who knew her (or claimed to), he refused to talk about her publicly or otherwise exploit their relationship. He never married again.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:33 PM
Edgar also hit .390 for his career on the 1st pitch.

Votto has hit .396 on the 1st pitch over his whole career. It is not a result of Votto being an impatient hitter, its that Votto recognizes a hittable 1st pitch and puts a good hack on it. It's pretty hard to assume that Votto would put up better numbers if he swung less on the 1st pitch.

It really has to come into play that Votto has rarely had players on base in front of him his whole career. Pitchers have usually been able to rear back and give him their best stuff. It's scary to think how good he'd be if he actually got to face more pitcher who have to pitch with runners on base. He'd get more 1-0 and more 2-0 counts as the pitcher tries to nibble with Votto, while worrying about the runner on 1st or 2nd.

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 08:34 PM
The goal of any at-bat by a hitter is to get the pitcher to throw you the pitch you want to hit. That changes from at-bat to at-bat. Sometimes it's the first pitch, but for a great hitter, it will usually be a pitch much later in the count.

It's baseball 101 that the best pitch outcomes are 3-0, followed by 2-0, followed by 3-1. You can't get to that if you are swinging at the first pitch.

A great hitter sets up the pitcher, not the other way around.

If you are swinging at the first pitch and it's ball 1 then are avoiding yourself of getting to a 1-0 count and potentially a 2-0 or 3-0 count. However if the pitch is a strike, especially a hittable one, you are getting down 0-1 and potentially 0-2 and then at the mercy of the pitcher.

The 1st pitch shouldn't be treated any differently than 1-0 or 1-1 or 2-1. If it is a good pitch you can drive then have at it.

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 08:36 PM
Edgar also hit .390 for his career on the 1st pitch.

Votto has hit .396 on the 1st pitch over his whole career. It is not a result of Votto being an impatient hitter, its that Votto recognizes a hittable 1st pitch and puts a good hack on it. It's pretty hard to assume that Votto would put up better numbers if he swung less on the 1st pitch.

I get the point of working the edge of the strike zone with free swingers, but I also know every pitcher wants to get strike 1 on the first pitch, so a lot of times it will be a hittable strike... not every time though. There's some pitchers who almost always seem to start off 1-0 instead of 0-1... at least on certain nights when they're laboring with their stuff a bit.

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 08:36 PM
It really has to come into play that Votto has rarely had players on base in front of him his whole career. Pitchers have usually been able to rear back and give him their best stuff. It's scary to think how good he'd be if he actually got to face more pitcher who have to pitch with runners on base. He'd get more 1-0 and more 2-0 counts as the pitcher tries to nibble with Votto, while worrying about the runner on 1st or 2nd.

Put him in Ryan Howard's spot and watch him get 160 RBI.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:39 PM
The 1st pitch shouldn't be treated any differently than 1-0 or 1-1 or 2-1. If it is a good pitch you can drive then have at it.

Yes. it should.

Great hitters let 1st ball strikes go by in order to get a 2-1 or 3-1 or 3-2 fastball. Every at-bat that they ever faced that pitcher is in their head, and it all comes into play during every at-bat and every pitch.

Votto is just a great hitter, period. He would be an even greater hitter, though if he was more patient. He doesn't set up a pitcher enough. But then, Votto is also a very inexperienced hitter still in his short lifetime in the Majors. He's going to get better. I could see him becoming more patient next season. I could really see him being more patient if Dusty quits putting crappy hitters in front of him.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:40 PM
I was going to make a joke about Dimaggio winning the MVP over Ted Williams with lesser numbers was because he was married to Marilyn Monroe, and that put him over the top with the voters. But that came later on.



It wasn't. Baseball writers always hated Ted Williams and they loved Joe DiMaggio.

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 08:40 PM
David DeJesus as the leadoff or number two hitter?

Bring back the 1992 Bip Roberts!

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:41 PM
It wasn't. Baseball writers always hated Ted Williams and they loved Joe DiMaggio.

Ted also lost to Yanks 2B Joe Gordon despite having significantly lesser numbers. They REALLY hated Ted.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:41 PM
David DeJesus as the leadoff or number two hitter?

Bring back the 1992 Bip Roberts!

I'll take Mariano Duncan.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:42 PM
cards only down by one.. 4-3, bottom of 5

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:43 PM
Put him in Ryan Howard's spot and watch him get 160 RBI.

He actually would get that many RBI's.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:43 PM
F*** albert

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 08:43 PM
Time to go make a pizza.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:44 PM
cards came back from 4 down... are winning 5-4 after a pujols bomb

GIDP
07-19-2010, 08:45 PM
This guy just called in asking a trivia question and he didnt know the answer... rofl.

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 08:45 PM
Stupid Cardinals

Basically, I just like saying Bip Roberts.

Bip Roberts Bip Roberts Bip Roberts Bip Roberts.

He was pretty darned good that year though.

.323 BA, .393 OBP, 92 runs scored, 132 OPS+
, 44 steals... actually finished 8th in the league MVP voting that year.

GIDP
07-19-2010, 08:46 PM
Bip Roberts was the reason why I wore the number 10 in every sport I played.

DocRed
07-19-2010, 08:47 PM
Kal Daniels had a cooler name....

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:48 PM
6-4 cards :thumbdown

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:50 PM
3 HRs in the 5th inning by the cards, now they're up 7-4... i'm done updating. i'm sick of the redbirds

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 08:51 PM
Kal Daniels had a cooler name....

But a lousy attitude.;)

I actually was at my high school when they had one of those "certain Reds players come and play a basketball game against the teachers at the school". At least it was that way to an extent. I went to a few of them and one year I think Larry Starr was on the team and one year Byron Larkin (Barry's basketball playing brother) was on the Reds team.

At halftime or after the game... whenever it was, they had autograph sessions with the Reds players. Kal Daniels was there one year but was already a Dodger. One of the Reds asked him, "How's your attitude Kal", and he said jokingly "It's getting worse."

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 08:52 PM
3 HRs in the 5th inning by the cards, now they're up 7-4... i'm done updating. i'm sick of the redbirds

Geez... who was pitching for Philly? I'm sure they're in to the bullpen by now.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:54 PM
Geez... who was pitching for Philly? I'm sure they're in to the bullpen by now.

kyle kendrick

arkimadee
07-19-2010, 08:54 PM
this is my feeling about tonight.. i feel the Reds will sit on this lead and not get another run..and will prolly lose 5-4.. and the cards will win

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 08:55 PM
kyle kendrick

Makes sense... although he shut us down a little last time. I guess the Cardinals have finally gotten hot like Felipe Lopez wanted them to be.

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 08:56 PM
Yes. it should.

Great hitters let 1st ball strikes go by in order to get a 2-1 or 3-1 or 3-2 fastball. Every at-bat that they ever faced that pitcher is in their head, and it all comes into play during every at-bat and every pitch.

Votto is just a great hitter, period. He would be an even greater hitter, though if he was more patient. He doesn't set up a pitcher enough. But then, Votto is also a very inexperienced hitter still in his short lifetime in the Majors. He's going to get better. I could see him becoming more patient next season. I could really see him being more patient if Dusty quits putting crappy hitters in front of him.

Votto for his career after an 0-1 count .830 OPS, after an 0-2 count .508 OPS.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7946/situational;_ylt=AohszjLOkYRrBvNdirG63OSFCLcF

It is well known that pitchers are more successful when they get ahead 0-1 and less successful when they get behind 0-1. The same is said for 0-2 and 2-0. If a hitter goes up there never swinging at the 1st pitch, he will never be a great hitter. I just don't see how you fault a guy for swinging at 1st pitches when he is a .396 AVG. and .719 SLG on 1st pitches for his career. I also don't see how taking a hittable strike to get to 0-1 is a good thing because you may (though not likely) get you 2-1 or 3-1.

As good as Votto is, a lot of times the 1st pitch is the best pitch he will see, hence why he hits so well on the first pitch. And typically 1st base is open so nobody is afraid to walk him.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 08:56 PM
nice inning from cueto..

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 08:57 PM
nice inning from cueto..

Striking out the side...I like it.

Vottomatic
07-19-2010, 08:57 PM
Cueto pitched stupidly in the 3rd. Too many pitches up high.

arkimadee
07-19-2010, 08:57 PM
Cueto pitched stupidly in the 3rd. Too many pitches up high.
he is the worlds worst with a lead

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 08:58 PM
I get pitch efficiency, but I want to see Cueto start to pile up the strikeouts again a bit. I'm greedy that way.

Brisco
07-19-2010, 08:58 PM
All these pitch count stats seem a bit misleading to me... since can only count pitch counts in which the ball was put into play... in other words, let's say the fifty first pitches that OCab swung on and missed (or fouled away) would not be reflected in those stats. Right??

sivman17
07-19-2010, 08:58 PM
Cueto pitched stupidly in the 3rd. Too many pitches up high.

he just got a strike out up in the zone

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 08:59 PM
Stubbs, Votto, Bruce, Phillips, I don't care... someone needs to take this junk balling jabroni out of the park.

sivman17
07-19-2010, 09:01 PM
there's nothing worse than a popout in foul territory... THEY IRK ME!!!!

Redlegs_87
07-19-2010, 09:01 PM
I see we are taking it easy on Martin again.

Griffey012
07-19-2010, 09:02 PM
there's nothing worse than a popout in foul territory... THEY IRK ME!!!!

what does 2 of them do to you?

sivman17
07-19-2010, 09:03 PM
what does 2 of them do to you?

make me throw up... i'm throwing up right now

Redeye fly
07-19-2010, 09:03 PM
I see we are taking it easy on Martin again.

Why not? He looks like a nice young man.

The type who would carry your grandmother's groceries in her house for her.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 09:04 PM
groundout. 1 down.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 09:05 PM
Martin just missed that

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 09:05 PM
2 down. he just got under it..

Brisco
07-19-2010, 09:06 PM
Stubbs makes so many catches look easy... others would have been diving to have a chance at that ball.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 09:07 PM
bottom 5 we go, reds 4 nationals 2.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 09:09 PM
8-4 cardinals now..

Redlegs_87
07-19-2010, 09:14 PM
:| VOTTO :|

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 09:14 PM
Votto with a man on base.

Woo-hoo.

Nice patience, there, Joey.

Vottomatic
07-19-2010, 09:15 PM
Phillips personal problems and child support problems are probably affecting his game. He looks awful recently.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 09:17 PM
Nice!!

sivman17
07-19-2010, 09:18 PM
B Phil is so silky smooth

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 09:18 PM
All these pitch count stats seem a bit misleading to me... since can only count pitch counts in which the ball was put into play... in other words, let's say the fifty first pitches that OCab swung on and missed (or fouled away) would not be reflected in those stats. Right??

So true.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 09:20 PM
Throw strikes!!!

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 09:20 PM
here comes dunner..

Brisco
07-19-2010, 09:20 PM
Throw strikes!!!

Cueto is not getting the call on the outside part of the plate.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 09:21 PM
next inning i think the bullpen takes over for cueto.

Maker_84
07-19-2010, 09:21 PM
cueto is falling apart

sivman17
07-19-2010, 09:22 PM
cueto is falling apart

really? he let one guy on!

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 09:22 PM
dunn pops out...2 down.

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 09:23 PM
anybody think if we don't win division we could win wildcard?

Maker_84
07-19-2010, 09:24 PM
anybody think if we don't win division we could win wildcard?

i'm starting to think that's whats going to happen

Indy_Reds_Fan
07-19-2010, 09:24 PM
anybody think if we don't win division we could win wildcard?

I do.

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 09:25 PM
anybody think if we don't win division we could win wildcard?

Absolutely.

This team will win 90+ games.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 09:25 PM
Yawn

rolenmvp
07-19-2010, 09:25 PM
2 on 2 outs for ivan...

Brisco
07-19-2010, 09:26 PM
The ump is killing Cueto... he just will not call strikes on the outside of the plate.

Redlegs_87
07-19-2010, 09:26 PM
Cards are getting hot at the right time and we are slumping at the wrong time. Cards will take the division easily if things keep going this way.

redsfan_12
07-19-2010, 09:27 PM
Damnit

sivman17
07-19-2010, 09:27 PM
fay says votto has reached in 51 of 52 games... is that one game the one he got ejected?

Kingspoint
07-19-2010, 09:27 PM
The REDS only job is to win every Series.

It's hard to win series when you lose the first game of the series and it's easy to win the series when you win the first game of the series.

We need this game.

Maker_84
07-19-2010, 09:27 PM
Cards are getting hot at the right time and we are slumping at the wrong time. Cards will take the division easily if things keep going this way.

i agree and it wont be close

arkimadee
07-19-2010, 09:28 PM
i think our best bet to make the playoffs is the wildcard.. and i'm ok by that.. as long as we are in..

sivman17
07-19-2010, 09:28 PM
what just happened?

Maker_84
07-19-2010, 09:28 PM
like i said, cueto is falling apart