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Cyclone792
07-20-2010, 10:50 AM
With the other thread (Reds are in first place in the NL Central) approaching 1,000 posts, this may be a good place to continue discussion on the Reds' playoff chase.

The Reds are currently a half game out of the NL Central behind St. Louis, but they do lead the NL Wildcard by a half game over the Giants. The Rockies, Mets, Dodgers and Phillies are also in the thick of the wildcard race, and at this time there are realistically about nine teams in the NL in playoff contention.

As nice as it'd be to squarely concentrate on St. Louis and the NL Central division title, I think the wildcard will be also be a legitimate focus as the season wears on. It's starting to reach the point where not only do we want the Cardinals to lose, but I'm also rooting for other NL playoff contenders to lose on a nightly basis if it helps the Reds playoff chances.

Tonight's games of interest:

Philadelphia @ St. Louis

San Diego @ Atlanta
Colorado @ Florida
NY Mets @ Arizona
San Francisco @ LA Dodgers

Redsfan320
07-20-2010, 11:12 AM
I will NOT watch the wildcard. The Reds ARE gonna win the division, and have no need to worry about it!

320

_Sir_Charles_
07-20-2010, 11:13 AM
I will NOT watch the wildcard. The Reds ARE gonna win the division, and have no need to worry about it!

320

:thumbup::beerme::thumbup:

Cyclone792
07-20-2010, 11:15 AM
I will NOT watch the wildcard. The Reds ARE gonna win the division, and have no need to worry about it!

320

I said that in 1999, and then the division title left the building. A few nights later, the wildcard also left the building.

My theory on the postseason is just get in any way possible, then the door of possibilities are there for the taking. Sure I'd prefer the Reds win the division, but the wildcard also provides a path to the pennant and World Series.

Ron Madden
07-20-2010, 11:15 AM
I will NOT watch the wildcard. The Reds ARE gonna win the division, and have no need to worry about it!

320

I think it's best to keep an eye on the whole picture.

Redsfan320
07-20-2010, 11:17 AM
My theory on the postseason is just get in any way possible, then the door of possibilities are there for the taking. Sure I'd prefer the Reds win the division, but the wildcard also provides a path to the pennant and World Series.


I think it's best to keep an eye on the whole picture.

Yeah, I know... but ya gotta believe!! :)

320

reds1869
07-20-2010, 11:19 AM
I will NOT watch the wildcard. The Reds ARE gonna win the division, and have no need to worry about it!

320

Showing your age, young man. You'll soon learn to be pessimistic like the rest of us. ;)

membengal
07-20-2010, 11:22 AM
I said that in 1999, and then the division title left the building. A few nights later, the wildcard also left the building.

My theory on the postseason is just get in any way possible, then the door of possibilities are there for the taking. Sure I'd prefer the Reds win the division, but the wildcard also provides a path to the pennant and World Series.

Word.

I've been watching the Wild Card scrum for weeks now.

Have to hope that as the NL West returns to playing each other, that they devour their own and help the Reds get some seperation.

TheNext44
07-20-2010, 11:29 AM
Personally, I think the Reds best shot is the division title. Those NL West teams are all very strong and it would be hard to best all of them. But it should make it fun this second half. Lots of teams to watch.

_Sir_Charles_
07-20-2010, 11:31 AM
Showing your age, young man. You'll soon learn to be pessimistic like the rest of us. ;)

Don't listen to 'em 320! You've got the right attitude, keep it! This is NOT the same club that has turned the fans into grumpy old men for the past 10 years. Keep the optimism!!! :beerme:

Redsfan320
07-20-2010, 11:48 AM
Don't listen to 'em 320!

Oh I don't. Funny thing is I'm a pessimistic person in general, but an optimistic Reds Fan!!! THIS IS THE YEAR!! :beerme:

320

RedsManRick
07-20-2010, 12:32 PM
I think there's actually a very good chance the Wildcard comes out of the central. In the both the East and the West, you have 4 teams with a realistic shot at the division or the wild card fighting it out; they'll beat up on each other a bit. In the Central, it's just us and the Cards.



Wild Card Teams W L PCT GB
Cincinnati 52 42 .553 -
San Francisco 51 42 .548 0.5
Colorado 50 42 .543 1.0
LA Dodgers 49 44 .527 2.5
NY Mets 49 44 .527 2.5
Philadelphia 48 44 .522 3.0
Florida 45 47 .489 6.0
Milwaukee 43 51 .457 9.0
Chi Cubs 42 52 .447 10.0
Washington 40 53 .430 11.5
Houston 38 55 .409 13.5
Arizona 35 58 .376 16.5
Pittsburgh 32 60 .348 19.0

membengal
07-20-2010, 01:20 PM
So, the Cardinals' weird baseball luck with who they are dealing with for opposing pitchers continues. You will recall that they played three against the Mariners last month and didn't have to face Lee or Hernandez (who then pitched against the Reds), and now I just realized that in their current series against Philly they will miss Halladay and Hamels, meaning Kendrick (lit up last night), Moyer and Blanton are the pitchers they draw.

Annoying.

(And, yes, I know the Reds got lucky and missed Jiminez last weekend. But that has been the exception rather than the rule this year, if a team has an ace, the Reds have generally had to deal with it).

Screwball
07-20-2010, 10:34 PM
So, the Cardinals' weird baseball luck with who they are dealing with for opposing pitchers continues. You will recall that they played three against the Mariners last month and didn't have to face Lee or Hernandez (who then pitched against the Reds), and now I just realized that in their current series against Philly they will miss Halladay and Hamels, meaning Kendrick (lit up last night), Moyer and Blanton are the pitchers they draw.

Annoying.

(And, yes, I know the Reds got lucky and missed Jiminez last weekend. But that has been the exception rather than the rule this year, if a team has an ace, the Reds have generally had to deal with it).

And it looks like it's again paying dividends for the Cards. They lead big over Philly 6-1 in the bottom of the 8th. This'll be their 7th win in a row, yet over the last 5 games the Reds have kept pace.

PuffyPig
07-20-2010, 10:56 PM
And it looks like it's again paying dividends for the Cards. They lead big over Philly 6-1 in the bottom of the 8th. This'll be their 7th win in a row, yet over the last 5 games the Reds have kept pace.

I'm not sure how have "kept pace" when in the last 5 games they have won all 5 and we haven't.

PuffyPig
07-20-2010, 10:57 PM
So, the Cardinals' weird baseball luck with who they are dealing with for opposing pitchers continues. You will recall that they played three against the Mariners last month and didn't have to face Lee or Hernandez (who then pitched against the Reds), and now I just realized that in their current series against Philly they will miss Halladay and Hamels, meaning Kendrick (lit up last night), Moyer and Blanton are the pitchers they draw.



The Cards play the Phillies 4 times, and get Hamels on Thursday.

Tornon
07-20-2010, 10:57 PM
So, the Cardinals' weird baseball luck with who they are dealing with for opposing pitchers continues. You will recall that they played three against the Mariners last month and didn't have to face Lee or Hernandez (who then pitched against the Reds), and now I just realized that in their current series against Philly they will miss Halladay and Hamels, meaning Kendrick (lit up last night), Moyer and Blanton are the pitchers they draw.



It's not quite that lucky.. the current series is a 4 game one, so they do see Hamels on thursday

Screwball
07-20-2010, 11:02 PM
I'm not sure how have "kept pace" when in the last 5 games they have won all 5 and we haven't.

Virtually kept pace. Happy?

membengal
07-20-2010, 11:05 PM
Oh, good, thought it was only a three-game series against Philly. Still frustrating to me that they duck Halladay.

And Moyer left after one inning tonite due to elbow stiffness...

forfreelin04
07-20-2010, 11:16 PM
Oh, good, thought it was only a three-game series against Philly. Still frustrating to me that they duck Halladay.

And Moyer left after one inning tonite due to elbow stiffness...

Personally, I really feel like if the Reds can hang on during the Cards run, it would be like taking a fighters best punch. With the Reds cookie schedule in September, they'll finish the Cards off. Of course this is only possible with Rolen healthy.

VR
07-21-2010, 01:21 AM
Cards are playing out of their minds, and have won 7 in a row. Reds are 1/2 game back.

I like that.

reds44
07-21-2010, 01:35 AM
Cards are playing out of their minds, and have won 7 in a row. Reds are 1/2 game back.

I like that.
Exactly. As frusterating as it is that the Cardinals have stopped losing games, it's equally as promising that we are still right there.

nemesis
07-21-2010, 06:12 AM
Exactly. As frusterating as it is that the Cardinals have stopped losing games, it's equally as promising that we are still right there.

You know it has to be frustrating to the Cards to, playing your best baseball of the season and knowing you are putting zero distance between you and the second place club. Puts alot of pressure and stress on a team. The Reds however seem to have gotten over that Philly series pretty quickly. As a fan though, the Reds could be on a 10 Game winning streak and up 5 if they could have held a 7 run lead in the 9th and scored 7 more runs in 4 games.

redsmetz
07-21-2010, 08:24 AM
:thumbup::beerme::thumbup:

Sir Charles, that better be root beer because 320 is the youngest member on the board!

reds1869
07-21-2010, 08:27 AM
Don't listen to 'em 320! You've got the right attitude, keep it! This is NOT the same club that has turned the fans into grumpy old men for the past 10 years. Keep the optimism!!! :beerme:

Re: my comment. That would be a joke. :D

OnBaseMachine
07-21-2010, 10:52 PM
The Cardinals are on their way to another win, so the Reds are now 1.5 games behind the Cardinals. It's frustrating watching the Reds lose to the Nationals while the Cardinals reel off a 7-0 stretch against the Dodgers and Phillies.

kaldaniels
07-21-2010, 10:52 PM
The Cardinals are on their way to another win, so the Reds are now 1.5 games behind the Cardinals. It's frustrating watching the Reds lose to the Nationals while the Cardinals reel off a 7-0 stretch against the Dodgers and Phillies.

Cards are out of their minds right now. I take it you are frustrated with winning 2 of 3 against the Nats...I take that all year along.

OnBaseMachine
07-21-2010, 10:58 PM
Cards are out of their minds right now. I take it you are frustrated with winning 2 of 3 against the Nats...I take that all year along.

Taking two of three is always nice but last night the Reds narrowly escaped blowing yet another big lead and while a win is a win, that game once again revealed a weakness in the bullpen. BTW, it's a four game series. Win tomorrow and it's a successful series/homestand and tonight's loss is forgotton. But a series split with the Nats would be a disappointment, IMO.

Falls City Beer
07-21-2010, 11:05 PM
The Phillies are awful. Wouldn't get too impressed with the Cards' victories. But yeah, coughing up 7 runs to the Nats is nothing short of bag over the head embarrassing.

reds44
07-21-2010, 11:08 PM
I don't want to sound like I'm panicing, and I'm definatley not saying we're going to collapse like Reds teams of old, but this is just demoralizing. I don't know how you beat the Cardinals. It sucks.

Falls City Beer
07-21-2010, 11:09 PM
I don't want to sound like I'm panicing, and I'm definatley not saying we're going to collapse like Reds teams of old, but this is just demoralizing. I don't know how you beat the Cardinals. It sucks.

You get Cliff Lee or Dan Haren.

SirFelixCat
07-21-2010, 11:15 PM
I guess I'm the exception, but tonight is/was really nothing to be concerned over, imo. Arroyo has this type of game every 10 starts or so and tonight was the night. Didn't matter if it was the Nats, Yankees, or the School for the Blind, it's simply going to happen w/ him.

That said, if the Reds win tomorrow, they will have gone 5-2 on the homestand and that's pretty hard to get too worked up about. Yes, the Cards are hotter than two rats fornicating in a wool sock, but just win each series and, in the end, things will work themselves out. :shrug:

yab1112
07-21-2010, 11:17 PM
I don't want to sound like I'm panicing, and I'm definatley not saying we're going to collapse like Reds teams of old, but this is just demoralizing. I don't know how you beat the Cardinals. It sucks.

I would say step 1 is not panicking.

guttle11
07-21-2010, 11:23 PM
The Reds don't HAVE to beat the Cardinals. Would be lovely, but it isn't necessary. They're fighting with the Padres, Rockies, Dodgers, Mets and Phillies as much as they are St Louis. Just get to the postseason and take your shot in the small sample sized crapshoot that is the MLB playoffs. Based on them getting to play the other 4 NL Central teams as often as they do, I think the Reds are the Wild Card front runner in many respects. Other teams may have as much or more ammo, but the Reds are taking a gun to a knife fight in a pretty high percentage of their remaining games. I foresee lots of series wins in the near future, and that's all that really matters. Keep taking 2 of 3 and nothing worse than a split in even numbered series.

As long as everyone essential is healthy from August 1st on, I give the Reds a better than 50% chance of making the playoffs.

reds44
07-21-2010, 11:23 PM
The Reds don't HAVE to beat the Cardinals. Would be lovely, but it isn't necessary. They're fighting with the Padres, Rockies, Dodgers, Mets and Phillies as much as they are St Louis. Just get to the postseason and take your shot in the small sample sized crapshoot that is the MLB playoffs.
This is why I'm not panicing lol

Roy Tucker
07-21-2010, 11:29 PM
It's a long season and there are ups and downs. Don't let your highs get too high and your lows get too low.

The Cards will cool off. Reds will get hot again. This thing is going to be a dog fight into September.

Homer Bailey
07-21-2010, 11:29 PM
I keep tellin myself we just won 4 of 6, lost to one really good pitcher and one decent one, but I still can't help but feel pretty lousy right now.

VR
07-22-2010, 12:41 AM
I feel great. Things are lining up well for the Reds 2nd have journey to a division title. They made good hay on Strasburg tonight, but the Nats got lucky. Oh well.

fearofpopvol1
07-22-2010, 02:13 AM
The Reds just have to focus on winning. If they keep winning, they'll make the playoffs...via the division or the wildcard. If the Reds win today...that's 3 out of 4. It's pretty hard to complain about going .750, even if it is against the Nats. Losing the finale would be a bit of a disappointment.

I could be wrong, but I think the Cards are going to lose today.

LoganBuck
07-22-2010, 07:30 AM
I don't want to sound like I'm panicing, and I'm definatley not saying we're going to collapse like Reds teams of old, but this is just demoralizing. I don't know how you beat the Cardinals. It sucks.

I still think this team needs to make a splash in the trade market. Either a big bat, or a big arm. Score more runs, or prevent the other team from scoring runs.

Gotta like Baker giving Votto today off, when you are in a playoff push.

So no Rolen, no Votto, no win?

This would be one of those times that a player should refuse to take a day off. Votto has the cred to tell Baker I am not taking a day off. My team needs me.

yab1112
07-22-2010, 08:05 AM
Gotta like Baker giving Votto today off, when you are in a playoff push.

So no Rolen, no Votto, no win?

This would be one of those times that a player should refuse to take a day off. Votto has the cred to tell Baker I am not taking a day off. My team needs me.

Yea but doesn't it seem like he could really use it? Even if the Reds lose this game today bc Votto's out, if it helps Votto break out of his slump (if you can even call it that) it's worth it.

Redsfan320
07-22-2010, 08:56 AM
I'm ticked now. An 8-game winning streak is too much. Someone MUST STOP THE CARDS!! Cole Hamels could, but the Cards have Wainwright going today. :(

320

reds1869
07-22-2010, 08:58 AM
As long as the Reds take care of business, the Cards will come back to Earth.

Redsfan320
07-22-2010, 08:59 AM
^^^
I used to think so too, but WHEN will they come back to earth??

320

Roy Tucker
07-22-2010, 09:39 AM
How poor are they that have not patience!
What wound did ever heal but by degrees?
~William Shakespeare, Othello, 1604

OldRightHander
07-22-2010, 09:42 AM
Yes, the Cards are hotter than two rats fornicating in a wool sock,

There's an image I don't need in my head this morning.

westofyou
07-22-2010, 09:42 AM
I still think this team needs to make a splash in the trade market. Either a big bat, or a big arm. Score more runs, or prevent the other team from scoring runs.

Gotta like Baker giving Votto today off, when you are in a playoff push.

So no Rolen, no Votto, no win?

This would be one of those times that a player should refuse to take a day off. Votto has the cred to tell Baker I am not taking a day off. My team needs me.

1969 Cubs, keep repeating that, the textbook case of not resting players.

It's been repeated numerous times, but that's the most famous one.

These guys aren't bionic.

yab1112
07-22-2010, 10:09 AM
There's an image I don't need in my head ever.

fixed that for you. :p:

Chip R
07-22-2010, 10:47 AM
You just know Votto wanted out of the lineup so he could go shopping and drink fancy coffee.

The Operator
07-22-2010, 10:58 AM
Votto could use a day off, actually. He's not quite looked like himself the last few games.

klw
07-22-2010, 11:09 AM
I have gotten very upset with the Phillies these last ten days!

Chip R
07-22-2010, 11:11 AM
Votto could use a day off, actually. He's not quite looked like himself the last few games.


Who has he looked like, Aretha Franklin of Betty White?

OnBaseMachine
07-22-2010, 11:17 AM
I still think this team needs to make a splash in the trade market. Either a big bat, or a big arm. Score more runs, or prevent the other team from scoring runs.

Gotta like Baker giving Votto today off, when you are in a playoff push.

So no Rolen, no Votto, no win?

This would be one of those times that a player should refuse to take a day off. Votto has the cred to tell Baker I am not taking a day off. My team needs me.

Agreed. I have no problem with giving players a day of rest but I think Dusty goes overboard with it. The Reds just had four days off last week, does Votto really need a day off today? If Rolen was in there today I could understand it, but he's not, so basically the Reds two best bats are out of the lineup today in a game the Reds need to win.

PuffyPig
07-22-2010, 11:18 AM
^^^
I used to think so too, but WHEN will they come back to earth??

320

THey have been back to earth most of the season.

Unless they go and get Oswalt, their 4-5 starters should keep us close.

I was hoping that Garcia was showing some fatique, but he had his best start in a while last night.

Same for Carpenter, who was regressing before the all star break, but has rebounded big time since the break with two good starts. Still, he isn't missing bats as much as he used to (in a recent start he didn't have a swing and miss until the 6th inning) so he may not be as good as he used to be. His xFIP is high 3's, but he's still plenty good.

Chip R
07-22-2010, 11:22 AM
Agreed. I have no problem with giving players a day of rest but I think Dusty goes overboard with it. The Reds just had four days off last week, does Votto really need a day off today?


Well, Votto didn't have any rest. He went from Philly to Anaheim for the ASG then back to Cincinnati. Brandon got last night off too.

Homer Bailey
07-22-2010, 11:26 AM
Willingham, Desmond, and Rodriguez all have the day off today. I'm not overly concerned.

Falls City Beer
07-22-2010, 11:26 AM
Willingham, Desmond, and Rodriguez all have the day off today. I'm not overly concerned.

Yeah, but Desmond and Rodriguez suck.

cumberlandreds
07-22-2010, 12:26 PM
Yeah, but Desmond and Rodriguez suck.


But they are still better than what they have put int there today.

Cyclone792
07-22-2010, 01:40 PM
The Reds are 4-6 since heading into Philadelphia with a 3 game lead, and now they're getting their teeth kicked in against Washington. Hamels needs to come up big today against the Cards, otherwise we could see a 3 game lead turn into a 2.5 game deficit in less than a dozen games.

Falls City Beer
07-22-2010, 02:20 PM
The Reds are 4-6 since heading into Philadelphia with a 3 game lead, and now they're getting their teeth kicked in against Washington. Hamels needs to come up big today against the Cards, otherwise we could see a 3 game lead turn into a 2.5 game deficit in less than a dozen games.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Reds are headed for the second-tier without a pretty massive infusion of production.

Brutus
07-22-2010, 02:34 PM
There's no doubt in my mind that the Reds are headed for the second-tier without a pretty massive infusion of production.

There's no doubt in mind that your valid concerns would hold much more credibility if they weren't drowned by the overboard hyperbole that typically accompany them. That is to say I think you make some great points, but the exaggerations take away from some otherwise tangible takes.

Falls City Beer
07-22-2010, 02:37 PM
There's no doubt in mind that your valid concerns would hold much more credibility if they weren't drowned by the overboard hyperbole that typically accompany them. That is to say I think you make some great points, but the exaggerations take away from some otherwise tangible takes.

What is hyperbolic about saying the Reds are headed out of contention (second-tier status)? I'm not saying they'll become the Pirates.

fearofpopvol1
07-22-2010, 02:51 PM
The good news? Hamel looks incredible today, as he has struck out the 1st 5 batters he's faced. The bad news? He's facing Wainwright. Maybe the Phils can squeeze this one out.

The Operator
07-22-2010, 03:03 PM
Who has he looked like, Aretha Franklin of Betty White?

I dunno, which of those two likes fancy coffee more?

Big Klu
07-22-2010, 03:07 PM
Who has he looked like, Aretha Franklin of Betty White?

With his Italian background, there is only one right answer: Liza. :D

fearofpopvol1
07-22-2010, 04:05 PM
Cards/Phils tied 0-0 after 7 innings. Hamels has only given up 1 hit (to Holliday).

Homer Bailey
07-22-2010, 04:05 PM
Hamels has allowed 1 hit thru 7. Of course they've given him no run support though.

0-0 thru 7.

CTA513
07-22-2010, 05:31 PM
Cardinals lost 2-0 in 11 innings so the Reds didn't fall behind another game.
Only 1 hit and 2 total base runners for the Cardinals offense today.

Scrap Irony
07-22-2010, 05:39 PM
There is no truth to the rumor that the Cardinal FCB-- Hudepohl Honey-- lamented a guaranteed second-place finish after today's game.

traderumor
07-22-2010, 05:59 PM
The Reds have started out the 2nd half 4-3 and the Cards hot streak makes it seem like we are swooning.

Brutus
07-22-2010, 06:31 PM
What is hyperbolic about saying the Reds are headed out of contention (second-tier status)? I'm not saying they'll become the Pirates.

We're nearly four months into the season and everytime you've prophesied impending doom after one of these stretches, they've bounced back to take the lead in the division. With one of the top offenses in the majors and, at very least, a bolstered pitching staff (improved personnel if nothing else), there's no real logistical reason to castigate them off to "second-tier status."

Do I think it's possible, without reinforcements, that this team could miss out on the playoffs? Yes, most definitely. But any objective observer should conclude, at this juncture, that this team is in the race until the end barring a set of unforseen circumstances. Most mathematical equations that reasonably estimate chances of making playoffs have the Reds better than 50% chance, even without help.

Falls City Beer
07-22-2010, 06:35 PM
We're nearly four months into the season and everytime you've prophesied impending doom after one of these stretches, they've bounced back to take the lead in the division. With one of the top offenses in the majors and, at very least, a bolstered pitching staff (improved personnel if nothing else), there's no real logistical reason to castigate them off to "second-tier status."

Do I think it's possible, without reinforcements, that this team could miss out on the playoffs? Yes, most definitely. But any objective observer should conclude, at this juncture, that this team is in the race until the end barring a set of unforseen circumstances. Most mathematical equations that reasonably estimate chances of making playoffs have the Reds better than 50% chance, even without help.

Becoming a non-contender isn't impending doom. But maybe I should define my parameters: the Reds will miss the playoffs by more than 5 games if they don't get help both in pitching and offense.

Brutus
07-22-2010, 06:38 PM
Becoming a non-contender isn't impending doom. But maybe I should define my parameters: the Reds will miss the playoffs by more than 5 games if they don't get help both in pitching and offense.

I would take such a wager, but I'm afraid your definition of "help" will be too subjective.

I would even venture to say that this team will be less than 5 games without a single deadline addition.

reds44
07-22-2010, 06:47 PM
Go Cubs Go.

And that's all I gotta say about that.

BearcatShane
07-22-2010, 06:48 PM
For as well as the Cards have played coming out of the break, to only be 1.5 games out is a pretty good position for the Reds to be in.

Chip R
07-22-2010, 07:02 PM
Go Cubs Go.

And that's all I gotta say about that.

I feel dirty rooting for them.

Will M
07-22-2010, 08:19 PM
We're nearly four months into the season and everytime you've prophesied impending doom after one of these stretches, they've bounced back to take the lead in the division. With one of the top offenses in the majors and, at very least, a bolstered pitching staff (improved personnel if nothing else), there's no real logistical reason to castigate them off to "second-tier status."

Do I think it's possible, without reinforcements, that this team could miss out on the playoffs? Yes, most definitely. But any objective observer should conclude, at this juncture, that this team is in the race until the end barring a set of unforseen circumstances. Most mathematical equations that reasonably estimate chances of making playoffs have the Reds better than 50% chance, even without help.

nice post.

in addition i feel the 2010 success has been a bonus. i really didn't expect the team to start winning until 2011. yet we have a winning record. we are in the playoff hunt. we have oodles of young talent. time for general optimism.

Captain Hook
07-22-2010, 08:30 PM
Becoming a non-contender isn't impending doom. But maybe I should define my parameters: the Reds will miss the playoffs by more than 5 games if they don't get help both in pitching and offense.

I love seeing these kind of predictions from FCB.It just means the Reds are about to go on another winning streak(and if it happens to be this weekend against the lowly Houston Astro I'm sure it will be pointed out how bad they are).I'm starting to think he knows what he's doing though and I for one hope he keeps it up.I am a little disappointed that the prediction has the Reds finishing only 5 games out of 1st this time instead of 5 games under .500.I hope he's not starting to get too optimistic.

Falls City Beer
07-22-2010, 08:40 PM
I love seeing these kind of predictions from FCB.It just means the Reds are about to go on another winning streak(and if it happens to be this weekend against the lowly Houston Astro I'm sure it will be pointed out how bad they are).I'm starting to think he knows what he's doing though and I for one hope he keeps it up.I am a little disappointed that the prediction has the Reds finishing only 5 games out of 1st this time instead of 5 games under .500.I hope he's not starting to get too optimistic.

The Astros are bad, but then, so are the Nats. My prediction hasn't changed ultimately. They are a decent team with weak pitching, nice defense, and good hitting. They might be a bit better than the .500 team I predicted, but realistically, probably not much better.

Captain Hook
07-23-2010, 12:27 AM
Giants won tonight so they lead the WC by .5 games now.If the season ended today we would have officially been eliminated.:(

Luckily there are still about 2.5 months left to go and we are still in the thick of things.:beerme:

RedsManRick
07-23-2010, 12:43 AM
As of 10pm EST tonight, Baseball Prospectus has the Reds with an 34% at the division and an 18% chance for the wild card -- 52% total for the postseason.

Full Standings
Braves 84%
Cards 79%
Padres 74%
Reds 52%
Rockies 47%
Giants 20%
Dodgers 16%
Mets 11%
Phillies 11%
Marlins 6%
Cubs 0%
Nationals 0%
Brewers 0%
Diamondbacks 0%
Astros 0%
Pirates 0%

Homer Bailey
07-23-2010, 12:47 AM
Wow, interesting that the Giants are only at 20%.

RedsManRick
07-23-2010, 12:53 AM
Wow, interesting that the Giants are only at 20%.

The BP process plays out the rest of the year by using an estimate of a team's true quality based an analysis of how well it has played, against whom, etc. It pegs the Giants at just 86 wins, compared to 93 for the Pads and 89 for the Rockies. The Reds are also projected for 89 wins.

Interestingly, the Giants and the Dodgers both have a better chance to win the Wild Card (marginally so) than they do the division.

Personally, I think the Padres are overrated by their approach. They have 3 young SP who are going to easily eclipse their career highs in IP. They're basically experiencing a best case scenario and I don't think it will continue. If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on either the Rockies or Dodgers.

Homer Bailey
07-23-2010, 09:51 AM
YouTube - "Go Cubs Go" 2009 Edition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS3llgyGZ68)

Redsfan320
07-23-2010, 02:32 PM
Tyler Colvin with a solo blast to right. Cubbies up 1-0 in the 2nd!

320

Ron Madden
07-23-2010, 02:36 PM
GULP... Go Cubs!

Very hard to say those two words but I did it.

Redsfan320
07-23-2010, 02:37 PM
Cubs have runners on 1st & 2nd with 2 out and Soriano up...

320

reds44
07-23-2010, 02:38 PM
Dadgumit Soriano.

Swung at a 2-0 pitch at his fists.

Redsfan320
07-23-2010, 02:38 PM
...and he pops out to FeLo at 3rd. :rolleyes:

320

RichRed
07-23-2010, 02:38 PM
I'm rooting for a 19-inning 14-13 Cubs win. The type of game it takes both teams a week to recover from.

reds44
07-23-2010, 02:46 PM
Game is on WGN.

Redsfan320
07-23-2010, 02:48 PM
Schu singles with 2 out but another former Red, Jason LaRue, grounds into a fielder's choice to end the Card's 2nd. Soto, Theriot, and Wells up in the Cubs 2nd. I'm goin' to the pool (hottest day of the summer for the tri-state supposedly), so later.

320

Homer Bailey
07-23-2010, 03:03 PM
4 pitch walk to Jon Jay to put 2 on for Pujols.

Pops him up though.

reds44
07-23-2010, 03:04 PM
Suppan has looked horrible early on. Cubbies need to put some more runs on the board.

reds44
07-23-2010, 03:07 PM
Remember when Derrek Lee was good at baseball?

(As a type that, he leadsoff the third with a hit.)

Homer Bailey
07-23-2010, 03:10 PM
I hate people that watch sports and say "Oh I could do that", but I really, really, really think I could hit a Jeff Suppan fastball pretty hard.

So there, I hate myself.

nate
07-23-2010, 03:14 PM
Remember when Derrek Lee was good at baseball?

It seems so long ago that it should be painted on the walls of caves in France.

:cool:

reds44
07-23-2010, 03:15 PM
Leadoff single for Holliday, then a LD DP. Solid.

OesterPoster
07-23-2010, 03:17 PM
Remember when Derrek Lee was good at baseball?


I think you could say that about several Cubs.

reds44
07-23-2010, 03:18 PM
Soto!

2-0.

Redsfan320
07-23-2010, 03:27 PM
Hey, reds44, who's your newest avatar, the Team USA guy? Is it Heisey? Looks kinda like him.

320

Playadlc
07-23-2010, 03:43 PM
A-Ram is flat on fire. I hope he can keep this up for the rest of this series.

reds44
07-23-2010, 03:45 PM
Hey, reds44, who's your newest avatar, the Team USA guy? Is it Heisey? Looks kinda like him.

320
It is.

reds44
07-23-2010, 03:46 PM
Soriano!

4-0.

reds44
07-23-2010, 03:59 PM
4-0 after 6.

OesterPoster
07-23-2010, 04:01 PM
Felipe Lopez is 0 for 3 with 3 k's.

reds44
07-23-2010, 04:08 PM
Cardinals have had some issues today. 5-0 Cubs on a dropped infield popup.

kbrake
07-23-2010, 04:09 PM
5-0 Cubs. Theriot scores from 2nd on a ball popped up between LaRue and Suppan that neither one saw or there was just poor communication. That was classic. LaRussa seems grumpy.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 04:11 PM
Thank god for rivalries. If this were any other team than the Cards, the Cubs would be going through the typical motions out there and phoning it in. They're more than welcome to phone it in when the Reds come up there next weekend.

_Sir_Charles_
07-23-2010, 04:14 PM
Cubs up 5-0. I find myself rooting for the Cubs.



I feel dirty.

OesterPoster
07-23-2010, 04:16 PM
How the heck did the Cards win 8 in a row with Suppan and Hawksworth in their rotation?

_Sir_Charles_
07-23-2010, 04:18 PM
I'm rooting for a 19-inning 14-13 Cubs win. The type of game it takes both teams a week to recover from.

Couldn't we just root for a black hole to engulf the entire stadium, both teams and those godawful fans?

reds44
07-23-2010, 04:19 PM
Back to back 2 out runners.

Lopez up.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 04:19 PM
How the heck did the Cards win 8 in a row with Suppan and Hawksworth in their rotation?

Hawksworth has been pretty solid. Throws hard, throws strikes. I'd take him over two members of the Reds' rotation.

reds44
07-23-2010, 04:20 PM
Hawksworth has been pretty solid. Throws hard, throws strikes. I'd take him over two members of the Reds' rotation.
Oh I have to hear this one.

Cueto
Volquez
Arroyo
Leake
Wood

Name your two.

Lopez grounded out to Castro to end the inning.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 04:21 PM
Oh I have to hear this one.

Cueto
Volquez
Arroyo
Leake
Wood

Name your two.

Arroyo and Volquez. I'd take Volquez though when learns to throw strikes.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 04:25 PM
Back to back 2 out runs.

Lopez up.

For those scoring at home, it was back to back 2 out runners. The score is still 5-0 Cubs.

reds44
07-23-2010, 04:26 PM
Arroyo and Volquez. I'd take Volquez though when learns to throw strikes.
This honestly is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this board. I have no idea how you can honestly think this.

Volquez had an ERA of 3.21 2 years ago with 206 strikeouts, and is actually younger than Hawksworth. Arroyo has an ERA of 4 as a Red and throws over 200 innings evey year.

It's absolutely mind boggling that anybody could think that.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 04:27 PM
This honestly is one of the dumbest things I've ever read on this board. I have no idea how you can honestly think this.

Volquez had an ERA of 3.21 2 years ago with 206 strikeouts, and is actually younger than Hawksworth. Arroyo has an ERA of 4 as a Red and throws over 200 innings evey year.

It's absolutely mind boggling that anybody could think that.

"2 years ago" is the operative qualifier. Right now, Volquez's starting over from scratch.

Arroyo is Jeff Suppan with good D behind him.

reds44
07-23-2010, 04:43 PM
"2 years ago" is the operative qualifier. Right now, Volquez's starting over from scratch.

Arroyo is Jeff Suppan with good D behind him.

Do you even read what you post? Here's what you just posted in another thread.


The Cards underperformed in the first half. That's a very deep team with many high K pitchers and a strong defense. They'll run away with the division.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 04:45 PM
Do you even read what you post? Here's what you just posted in another thread.

Suppan had bad D behind him in Milwaukee, not St. Louis.

Since joining the Cards, a team with a strong defense, his ERA has gone down considerably. Doesn't mean that he's a good pitcher however.

See the connection there ace?

OesterPoster
07-23-2010, 04:47 PM
Back to the more important issue. The Cards lost!

reds44
07-23-2010, 04:47 PM
YouTube - GO CUBS GO 2010 Version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQr9E_Tbz8A)

Boy, do I love this song*












*this weekend.

Can pull to within a half game of first tonight.

reds44
07-23-2010, 04:49 PM
Suppan had bad D behind him in Milwaukee, not St. Louis.

Since joining the Cards, a team with a strong defense, his ERA has gone down considerably. Doesn't mean that he's a good pitcher however.

See the connection there ace?
Reds should clearly offer Volquez for Hawksworth right now. Makes them better down the stretch.

Eric_the_Red
07-23-2010, 04:49 PM
Suppan had bad D behind him in Milwaukee, not St. Louis.

Since joining the Cards, a team with a strong defense, his ERA has gone down considerably. Doesn't mean that he's a good pitcher however.

See the connection there ace?

And how has Arroyo's defense behind him been in his time with the Reds?

Redsfan320
07-23-2010, 04:50 PM
Just heard the "Go Cubs Go" song for the first time ever. Wow. LOL

320

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 04:51 PM
And how has Arroyo's defense behind him been in his time with the Reds?

Bad and good. Right now it's good.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 04:52 PM
Reds should clearly offer Volquez for Hawksworth right now. Makes them better down the stretch.

See, you're just being obtuse. Over the long term I'll take Volquez, but in the near term Hawksworth is clearly the better performer.

I don't see any reason to make a trade and scuttle the long term, but right now is what matters. Not next year, when Volquez may or may not be better.

reds44
07-23-2010, 04:53 PM
See, you're just being obtuse. Over the long term I'll take Volquez, but in the near term Hawksworth is clearly the better performer.

I don't see any reason to make a trade and scuttle the long term, but right now is what matters. Not next year, when Volquez may or may not be better.
Trade them Arroyo, then.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 04:53 PM
Trade them Arroyo, then.

In a heartbeat.

Big Klu
07-23-2010, 04:55 PM
Just heard the "Go Cubs Go" song for the first time ever. Wow. LOL

320

So did the city of Chicago! :p: (Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week!)

Patrick Bateman
07-23-2010, 04:55 PM
See, you're just being obtuse. Over the long term I'll take Volquez, but in the near term Hawksworth is clearly the better performer.


Well, there certainly isn't anything clear about that.

Volq certainly wouldn't be the first post TJ arm to come back strong (or at the very least stronger than Hawksworth, not exactly a huge benchmark).

Brutus
07-23-2010, 04:56 PM
See, you're just being obtuse. Over the long term I'll take Volquez, but in the near term Hawksworth is clearly the better performer.


Based on what, exactly? His 4.85 ERA? His 1.77 WHIP? His 5.76 K/9? 4.90 FIP?

In what variation of the game of baseball are those numbers clearly better than Edinson Volquez?

Blake Hawksworth is the (at best) 9th best starting pitcher in the Reds' organization.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 04:59 PM
You two saw Volquez's start yesterday, right? Jeff Austin had greater poise.

Volquez will probably be great again, but if his start yesterday didn't cast a pall on his future for this season, then you're just willfully ignoring reality.

reds44
07-23-2010, 05:01 PM
You two saw Volquez's start yesterday, right? Jeff Austin had greater poise.

Volquez will probably be great again, but if his start yesterday didn't cast a pall on his future for this season, then you're just willfully ignoring reality.
You saw Volquez's first start didn't you? Holy crap a guy coming back from TJ surgery struggled with control early in his return?

Who could have seen that coming?

Brutus
07-23-2010, 05:04 PM
You two saw Volquez's start yesterday, right? Jeff Austin had greater poise.

Volquez will probably be great again, but if his start yesterday didn't cast a pall on his future for this season, then you're just willfully ignoring reality.

How convenient that one bad start is reality, while the other is an illusion. I did see his start yesterday, and I also saw the one Saturday where he looked better than Blake Hawksworth could ever hope to be.

I surmise you don't need to poll Reds fans to find few, if any, baseball fans would take Hawksworth over Volquez down the stretch. In fact, that suggestion would be laughed out the building.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 05:04 PM
You saw Volquez's first start didn't you? Holy crap a guy coming back from TJ surgery struggled with control early in his return?

Who could have seen that coming?

So we give Volquez 10 more starts this season, 5 are guaranteed losses. I think the Reds can do better than those percentages.

PuffyPig
07-23-2010, 05:07 PM
You two saw Volquez's start yesterday, right? Jeff Austin had greater poise.

Volquez will probably be great again, but if his start yesterday didn't cast a pall on his future for this season, then you're just willfully ignoring reality.

But Hawksworth does that on a regular basis. And there is no "good" Hawksworth.

Right now Hawksworth is behind Suppan in the Cards pecking order. And Suppan may well be the worst starter in the majors.

If Volquez starts pitching poorly, the Reds have options. The Cards have P. J.Walters.

reds44
07-23-2010, 05:07 PM
So we give Volquez 10 more starts this season, 5 are guaranteed losses. I think the Reds can do better than those percentages.
No.

Patrick Bateman
07-23-2010, 05:07 PM
You two saw Volquez's start yesterday, right? Jeff Austin had greater poise.

Volquez will probably be great again, but if his start yesterday didn't cast a pall on his future for this season, then you're just willfully ignoring reality.

Now who's being obtuse?

Would it have been any more insane if after 1 start I said that Volquez is clearly better than Cliff from here on in, and used the same line of "did you see Volquez' domination."

It's one start. When a guy like Volq isn't sharp he looks real, real bad. When he has it, he might be as tough as anybody. So far we've seen both.

The comment that a marginal starter such as Hawksworth is CLEARLY better than Volq for the remainder of the year is certainly not going to be received particularly well on a Reds board without a modicom of analysis. It's when you say things like that so arrogantly without a hint of analysis that people get rubbed the wrong way.

Sure, I could see your side of the coin. Pitcher coming off major surgery, short history of success, known control problems. Sure, I have doubts about him too. He may very well not be anything more than fungible this year.

But his stuff, velocity are already back, which would be my top concern of a pitcher coming off surgery, and has had a season's worth of success more than Hawksworth, and is clearly a very talented pitcher.

There's certainly two worthwhile arguments there, to the point that saying crap like Hawksworth is CLEARLY better than Volq from here on in is a pretty lazy analysis IMO, especially when the thesis revolves around 1 start.

Patrick Bateman
07-23-2010, 05:08 PM
If Volquez starts pitching poorly, the Reds have options. The Cards have P. J.Walters.

Thats signature worthy.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 05:09 PM
If Volquez starts pitching poorly, the Reds have options.

This is a fair point. Maloney will almost certainly give the Reds better more reliable performance the last two months than Volquez.

The problem is that the Reds are enticed by Volquez's "potential," when, with their defense, they'd be much smarter to go with the guy who throws strikes.

reds44
07-23-2010, 05:09 PM
This is a fair point. Maloney will almost certainly give the Reds better more reliable performance the last two months than Volquez.

The problem is that the Reds are enticed by Volquez's "potential," when, with their defense, they'd be much smarter to go with the guy who throws strikes.
OH. MY. GOD.

When you consider the numbers Volquez put up for a full season, it's not "potential."

nate
07-23-2010, 05:10 PM
Volquez is a guy who walks a lot of guys even when he hasn't just come back from TJ surgery.

He's had one good start and one bad. Neither start is definitive of what the remainder of his season or career will be.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 05:11 PM
Maloney throws strikes. Volquez wouldn't know what a strike is if it wore Joey Votto's sweater vest.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 05:13 PM
Now who's being obtuse?

Would it have been any more insane if after 1 start I said that Volquez is clearly better than Cliff from here on in, and used the same line of "did you see Volquez' domination."

It's one start. When a guy like Volq isn't sharp he looks real, real bad. When he has it, he might be as tough as anybody. So far we've seen both.

The comment that a marginal starter such as Hawksworth is CLEARLY better than Volq for the remainder of the year is certainly not going to be received particularly well on a Reds board without a modicom of analysis. It's when you say things like that so arrogantly without a hint of analysis that people get rubbed the wrong way.

Sure, I could see your side of the coin. Pitcher coming off major surgery, short history of success, known control problems. Sure, I have doubts about him too. He may very well not be anything more than fungible this year.

But his stuff, velocity are already back, which would be my top concern of a pitcher coming off surgery, and has had a season's worth of success more than Hawksworth, and is clearly a very talented pitcher.

There's certainly two worthwhile arguments there, to the point that saying crap like Hawksworth is CLEARLY better than Volq from here on in is a pretty lazy analysis IMO, especially when the thesis revolves around 1 start.

Volquez's entire career has straddled the finest of lines--as you say, when he's not--by chance--hitting spots, he's horrible, unsalvageable. He has to be replaced in the 3rd inning, draining the bullpen. Why not just go with a guy who will throw strikes and give your team a chance, especially a team with a defense like the Reds? Then next year, let Volquez work out his bipolar disorder.

Patrick Bateman
07-23-2010, 05:17 PM
Volquez's entire career has straddled the finest of lines--as you say, when he's not--by chance--hitting spots, he's horrible, unsalvageable. He has to be replaced in the 3rd inning, draining the bullpen. Why not just go with a guy who will throw strikes and give your team a chance, especially a team with a defense like the Reds? Then next year, let Volquez work out his bipolar disorder.

Because, at his best, the summation of his Jeckyl and Hyde act was basically the best season a Reds pitcher has basically proven to be better than anything else the Reds have trotted out there in the last decade.

The reward not only is better than Hawksworth, it's probably the best we have. TJ isn't labrum surgery. It's not like the chance of him reaching that ceiling is 2%. And he doesn't need to reach that ceiling to be one of our best 5 (or better than Hawkswroth).

It's really quite an easy gamble to take (as such it's probably not much of a gamble).

PuffyPig
07-23-2010, 05:18 PM
This is a fair point. Maloney will almost certainly give the Reds better more reliable performance the last two months than Volquez.

The problem is that the Reds are enticed by Volquez's "potential," when, with their defense, they'd be much smarter to go with the guy who throws strikes.


I guess we will see.

I think that "wishful thinking" that Volquez will fall flat on his face and "reality that he will" are too different things.

Volquez has had 1 bad start in 8 games this year (counting his rehab starts).

And you think the Reds should throw him under the bus for that start, especially when he was obviously squeezed early in the bad game.

There isn't a manager in baseball that would do that.

Even Larussa keeps throwing Suppan out here to get his head beaten in, when in fact even his crappy stas don't even begin to show how bad he has been.

36 innings in 7 starts, about 5 innings per start. 49 hits, 7 HR's and a K/W ratio of 13-15. That's 64 baserunners in 36 innings.

Yet he's sent out every 5 days or so.

And you are fussing about one bad start from Volquez.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 05:20 PM
Because, at his best, the summation of his Jeckyl and Hyde act was basically the best season a Reds pitcher has basically proven to be better than anything else the Reds have trotted out there in the last decade.

The reward not only is better than Hawksworth, it's probably the best we have. TJ isn't labrum surgery. It's not like the chance of him reaching that ceiling is 2%. And he doesn't need to reach that ceiling to be one of our best 5 (or better than Hawkswroth).

It's really quite an easy gamble to take (as such it's probably not much of a gamble).

When the difference between making the postseason and not is probably going to be decided by a couple of games, yeah, throwing a guy like Volquez who is pretty likely to have several more of these clunkers between now and October is certainly a gamble. I'm not saying it can't work it, but to say it's not a gamble is laughable. It's a huge gamble.

Patrick Bateman
07-23-2010, 05:24 PM
When the difference between making the postseason and not is probably going to be decided by a couple of games, yeah, throwing a guy like Volquez who is pretty likely to have several more of these clunkers between now and October is certainly a gamble. I'm not saying it can't work it, but to say it's not a gamble is laughable. It's a huge gamble.

Okay, are you even trying to be consistent anymore?

You already said that the Reds are likely desitned for second tier, and 5+ games back from the division. If anything, your stance on the Reds chances this season would suggest that they should have the patience to let Volq work through his issues in the majors to prepare for next season.

What's the gamble? That the difference between Volquez and his replacement (Maloney or the opportunity cost of using Arroyo for that matter) is going to cost us the playoffs?

Volq isn't standing in the way of Haren and Oswalt here. He's standing in the way of guys deemed not good enough to make our rotation, which I know you believe is a considerable weakness on our team. That's really not that much of a gamble to me. I think there is pretty decent reason to believe that Volq can post a 4.50 ERA, or at least match the Maloney's of the world.

PuffyPig
07-23-2010, 05:27 PM
When the difference between making the postseason and not is probably going to be decided by a couple of games, yeah, throwing a guy like Volquez who is pretty likely to have several more of these clunkers between now and October is certainly a gamble. I'm not saying it can't work it, but to say it's not a gamble is laughable. It's a huge gamble.

And Suppan?

What would you call that?

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 05:28 PM
Okay, are you even trying to be consistent anymore?

You already said that the Reds are likely desitned for second tier, and 5+ games back from the division. If anything, your stance on the Reds chances this season would suggest that they should have the patience to let Volq work through his issues in the majors to prepare for next season.

What's the gamble? That the difference between Volquez and his replacement (Maloney or the opportunity cost of using Arroyo for that matter) is going to cost us the playoffs?

Volq isn't standing in the way of Haren and Oswalt here. He's standing in the way of guys deemed not good enough to make our rotation, which I know you believe is a considerable weakness on our team. That's really not that much of a gamble to me. I think there is pretty decent reason to believe that Volq can post a 4.50 ERA, or at least match the Maloney's of the world.

I think the Reds have an outside shot at the WC. So, yeah, it's a gamble.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 05:29 PM
And Suppan?

What would you call that?

When the rest of your rotation is good, one bad starter is acceptable. And say what you want, at least Jeff will give you 5 innings. Bad ones, sure. But he's not going to exit in the 2nd with the bases juiced and his team down by 8.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 05:44 PM
Incidentally, I have no doubt the Reds will continue to smash their brains in with Volquez, come hell or high water. Doesn't matter if each start is an exact replica of yesterday's. Because, of course, he was the contingency plan if the Lee deal fell through.

fearofpopvol1
07-23-2010, 05:53 PM
Incidentally, I have no doubt the Reds will continue to smash their brains in with Volquez, come hell or high water. Doesn't matter if each start is an exact replica of yesterday's. Because, of course, he was the contingency plan if the Lee deal fell through.

I think harping on a guy after 1 start is a bit ridiculous. Most of his starts prior in the minors were all impressive too. Until he shows that he is consistently going to pitch "clunkers" as you described it, this is much ado about nothing.

BoydsOfSummer
07-23-2010, 05:57 PM
I'm more concerned with Rolen. Very concerned.

PuffyPig
07-23-2010, 06:01 PM
When the rest of your rotation is good, one bad starter is acceptable. And say what you want, at least Jeff will give you 5 innings. Bad ones, sure. But he's not going to exit in the 2nd with the bases juiced and his team down by 8.

I wouldn't consier Hawksworth "good". "Really bad" is more like it.

And the innings eater arguement is beyond silly.

You want bad pitchers pitching very little. I'd rather have a pitcher with a bad ERA pitching 3 innings than extending his high ERA over 3 extra innings.

What's better, a pitcher who gives up 3 runs in 3 innings or one that gives up 6 runs in 6 innings?

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 06:13 PM
I wouldn't consier Hawksworth "good". "Really bad" is more like it.

And the innings eater arguement is beyond silly.

You want bad pitchers pitching very little. I'd rather have a pitcher with a bad ERA pitching 3 innings than extending his high ERA over 3 extra innings.

What's better, a pitcher who gives up 3 runs in 3 innings or one that gives up 6 runs in 6 innings?

Except the choice you pose is a false choice. No manager, alive or dead, is going to pull a pitcher after having given up only 3 runs in 3 innings. I'm talking talking about Volquez's merry-go-round of baserunners yesterday, the utter inability to throw strikes and retire batters, leaving with 6 runs scored in 2 1/3. You almost have to will yourself to be that awful. That's the game situation that kills ballclubs. Not Jeff Suppan's 6 IP 5 run starts.

HokieRed
07-23-2010, 06:17 PM
Incidentally, I have no doubt the Reds will continue to smash their brains in with Volquez, come hell or high water. Doesn't matter if each start is an exact replica of yesterday's. Because, of course, he was the contingency plan if the Lee deal fell through.

Not to mention he cost the Reds the player who would have put them into the playoffs.

Brutus
07-23-2010, 06:19 PM
I know who I'd take mixing & matching five...

Blake Hawksworth

(Career) 99.1 IP; 5.26 K/9, 3.62 BB/9, 0.91 HR/9; 4.52 FIP

Jeff Suppan

(Career) 2,471 IP; 4.96 K/9, 3.08 BB/9, 1.19 HR/9; 4.85 FIP

Bronson Arroyo

(Career) 1,592 IP; 5.99 K/9, 2.80 BB/9, 1.11 HR/9; 4.46 FIP

Aaron Harang

(Career) 1,140 IP; 7.49 K/9, 2.48 BB/9, 1.22 HR/9; 4.13 FIP

Johnny Cueto

(Career) 462 IP; 7.27 K/9, 3.29 BB/9, 1.21 HR/9; 4.57 FIP

Mike Leake

(Career) 114 IP; 5.73 K/9, 3.14 BB/9, 0.94 HR/9; 4.30 FIP

Edinson Volquez

(Career) 334 IP; 8.65 K/9, 4.66 BB/9, 0.94 HR/9; 4.34 FIP


I didn't use Travis Wood as his sample isn't very big, but I'd take him easily over the aforementioned Cardinal pitchers.

In any event, given the entire picture, there is no one on this list I'd take Hawksworth over, surgery or no.

westofyou
07-23-2010, 06:20 PM
Not to mention he cost the Reds the player who would have put them into the playoffs.

The Reds have offense, always have and haven't for about 2 years out of the last 55.

They've been flush with Hamiltons, they've had almost the complete opposite effect on the bump in the middle of the infield.

And that's where they've been losing all those chances at the World Series year after year.

HokieRed
07-23-2010, 06:30 PM
The Reds have offense, always have and haven't for about 2 years out of the last 55.

They've been flush with Hamiltons, they've had almost the complete opposite effect on the bump in the middle of the infield.

And that's where they've been losing all those chances at the World Series year after year.

Are you honestly suggesting that Josh Hamilton would not be an upgrade at any of the three positions in our outfield?

PuffyPig
07-23-2010, 06:55 PM
Except the choice you pose is a false choice. No manager, alive or dead, is going to pull a pitcher after having given up only 3 runs in 3 innings.

On July 16,2010, Garcia was relieved after 3.1 innings, having surrendered 8 hits and 2 runs.

It ultimately likely was the reason the Cards won 8-4, before Garcia could really get clobbered.

But I never really considered Larussa dead or alive.

Suppan is 0-6 this year, and has pitched 6 innings twice in 9 starts.

I suggest you are exaggerating his innings eater reputation.

He has averaged 5 innings per start this year. And yet to win a game.

He pitches few innings and those are generally bad ones.

His ability to win a game is to rely on BABIP luck, as he has no ability to cause hitters to swing and miss. He gives up the long ball and strikes out fewer hitters than he walks. And his ERA is above 6.

PuffyPig
07-23-2010, 06:56 PM
In any event, given the entire picture, there is no one on this list I'd take Hawksworth over, surgery or no.

I'd take him over Suppan.

Mario-Rijo
07-23-2010, 07:04 PM
Except the choice you pose is a false choice. No manager, alive or dead, is going to pull a pitcher after having given up only 3 runs in 3 innings. I'm talking talking about Volquez's merry-go-round of baserunners yesterday, the utter inability to throw strikes and retire batters, leaving with 6 runs scored in 2 1/3. You almost have to will yourself to be that awful. That's the game situation that kills ballclubs. Not Jeff Suppan's 6 IP 5 run starts.

Yeah Volquez didn't have the greatest of games but personally I thought it wasn't as bad to watch as it appeared he was "just" missing most of the time, Livan was getting an awful lot of the same pitches called strikes. Given what I saw with EV yesterday and what I saw his 1st game back I am comfortable suggesting that yesterdays results are simply an aberration.

In short I thought he was being squeezed an awful lot and Livan was being given a bigger zone.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 07:07 PM
Of course, you point to the one instance when the most psychotic micromanager the world has ever seen took out Garcia after 3 1/3. Okay, you win. Baseball is full of managers who pull starters after 3 innings and 3 runs or less. Happens constantly.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 07:16 PM
Yeah Volquez didn't have the greatest of games but personally I thought it wasn't as bad to watch as it appeared he was "just" missing most of the time, Livan was getting an awful lot of the same pitches called strikes. Given what I saw with EV yesterday and what I saw his 1st game back I am comfortable suggesting that yesterdays results are simply an aberration.

In short I thought he was being squeezed an awful lot and Livan was being given a bigger zone.


Anybody else see this?

I think the next question should be: why did Livan get the calls and not Volquez? Framing? Vet preference?

Homer Bailey
07-23-2010, 07:27 PM
Guys, FCB will do this after guys have a bad start. He hopes the rest of us forget the many, many good starts that guy has had previous to it, and only remembers the most recent one. Nevermind that Arroyo has a 3.65 ERA over the last month, all that matters is the last start, and that is what is going to happen the rest of the year.

Nevermind that Volquez was unhittable in his first start, he is clearly going to be awful the rest of the year.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 07:43 PM
Guys, FCB will do this after guys have a bad start. He hopes the rest of us forget the many, many good starts that guy has had previous to it, and only remembers the most recent one. Nevermind that Arroyo has a 3.65 ERA over the last month, all that matters is the last start, and that is what is going to happen the rest of the year.

Nevermind that Volquez was unhittable in his first start, he is clearly going to be awful the rest of the year.

Arroyo will probably be a bit better if Rolen returns at third. So that's good.

fearofpopvol1
07-23-2010, 07:50 PM
Guys, FCB will do this after guys have a bad start. He hopes the rest of us forget the many, many good starts that guy has had previous to it, and only remembers the most recent one. Nevermind that Arroyo has a 3.65 ERA over the last month, all that matters is the last start, and that is what is going to happen the rest of the year.

Nevermind that Volquez was unhittable in his first start, he is clearly going to be awful the rest of the year.

I have noticed that FCB does tend to do this...but oddly enough, it's usually only with Reds pitchers.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 07:54 PM
I have noticed that FCB does tend to do this...but oddly enough, it's usually only with Reds pitchers.

I also do it when there's years' worth of evidence to suggest they're not very good.

reds44
07-23-2010, 07:55 PM
I also do it when there's years' worth of evidence to suggest they're not very good.
Oh you mean like Volquez?

fearofpopvol1
07-23-2010, 07:57 PM
I also do it when there's years' worth of evidence to suggest they're not very good.

Suppan is very good?

Not sure there is years worth of data to suggest that Cueto/Volquez/Leake/Wood are not very good. Harang and Arroyo, maybe, but Harang has been pretty good and Arroyo has been quite serviceable.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 07:57 PM
Oh you mean like Volquez?

I didn't say Volquez would never revive his career. I said it's silly to expect Volquez to give the Reds what we saw in 2008 when he's coming back from TJ. I understand that TJ isn't what it used to be, but it's still surgery, he hasn't faced MLBers in a year, and he's going to have to knock off a good bit of rust.

I stand by that argument.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 07:59 PM
Suppan is very good?

Not sure there is years worth of data to suggest that Cueto/Volquez/Leake/Wood are not very good. Harang and Arroyo, maybe, but Harang has been pretty good and Arroyo has been quite serviceable.

Where did I say Suppan is very good? Or even good? Just please breathe and re-read my posts.

My point in that post is not to say all Reds pitchers are bad; rather it's to point out that I don't just judge pitchers on their last performance, good or bad.

fearofpopvol1
07-23-2010, 08:02 PM
Where did I say Suppan is very good? Or even good? Just please breathe and re-read my posts.

My point in that post is not to say all Reds pitchers are bad; rather it's to point out that I don't just judge pitchers on their last performance, good or bad.

You've been defending Suppan for quite a few posts now, which would suggest that you view him better than some of the Reds posters staff, no?

I have seen you give a lot more rope to pitchers outside of the Reds organization, for whatever the reason is.

Scrap Irony
07-23-2010, 08:18 PM
Not outside the Red rotation.

In the Cardinal rotation.

FCB hasn't met a Cardinal he couldn't make better, nor a Red he couldn't whose contributions he couldn't minimalize.

But he does make some good points occasionally and he's a really good writer.

Eric_the_Red
07-23-2010, 10:20 PM
Where did I say Suppan is very good? Or even good? Just please breathe and re-read my posts.

So Suppan isn't very good, or even good, and yet he is better than Arroyo? I think your dictionary's definition of "good" is broken.


My point in that post is not to say all Reds pitchers are bad; rather it's to point out that I don't just judge pitchers on their last performance, good or bad.

Except Volquez.

Falls City Beer
07-23-2010, 10:23 PM
So Suppan isn't very good, or even good, and yet he is better than Arroyo? I think your dictionary's definition of "good" is broken.



Except Volquez.

I never said he was better than Arroyo. Though they are similar pitchers in a peripheral sense.

And no, Volquez has had control problems his entire career, and hasn't faced MLB hitting in a year.

Eric_the_Red
07-23-2010, 10:31 PM
I never said he was better than Arroyo. Though they are similar pitchers in a peripheral sense.

And no, Volquez has had control problems his entire career, and hasn't faced MLB hitting in a year.


Arroyo is Jeff Suppan with good D behind him.

Sorry, not better but just as good as. So, you are saying that Arroyo is not a good pitcher.

good adjective - satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree; competent or skillful;

Redsfan320
07-23-2010, 11:11 PM
Reds are now a half game back after the Cards 5-0 loss, and the Reds 6-4 win. Now we've gotta get 1st back tomorrow. Go Reds!

320

PuffyPig
07-23-2010, 11:13 PM
Of course, you point to the one instance when the most psychotic micromanager the world has ever seen took out Garcia after 3 1/3. Okay, you win. Baseball is full of managers who pull starters after 3 innings and 3 runs or less. Happens constantly.

When you say no manager dead or alive has ever done something, and I can remembr that your hero did it a week ago (off te top of my head), that is pretty meaningful.

I would wager it happens a lot more than once.

Want to test that theory??

oregonred
07-23-2010, 11:15 PM
Huge win tonight to get back to .5 games. First time in seemingly forever that the Reds won and the Cards lost. The Cards prove they are human again, so life is back to being good. :) Hopefully Cueto can make the start tomorrow night against a distracted Oswalt

Increasingly the WC is looking like a race between the NL West and the Reds or Cards. The Mets have taken a beating on their WC road trip and the Phils are hanging on (the lucky 4-game flukish sweep against the Reds is the only thing keeping them slightly above .500). Nats/Fish playing much better, the NL East doesn't have a D-Back to prop up the winning percentages.

fearofpopvol1
07-24-2010, 01:16 AM
It looks like the Giants are going to win tonight, meaning the Reds will remain .5 game out of the wildcard.

The Operator
07-24-2010, 02:24 AM
Isn't Falls City Beer the same guy who, in 2008, predicted Volquez would be "in the bullpen by May"?

Keep the doom and gloom coming, it must motivate EV.

PuffyPig
07-24-2010, 09:24 AM
Isn't Falls City Beer the same guy who, in 2008, predicted Volquez would be "in the bullpen by May"?



He is.

He also said that Cueto couldn't be a viable major league starter because he failed to obtain a lifetime K/9 ratio above 9.5 in the minors.

Scrap Irony
07-24-2010, 09:56 AM
He also lost his firstborn in a bet early in Redszone history that will occasionally be alluded to even today.

westofyou
07-24-2010, 10:54 AM
Are you honestly suggesting that Josh Hamilton would not be an upgrade at any of the three positions in our outfield?

I'm suggesting that the hand wringing over him not being here and the thought that he'd get us to the WS as opposed to what this team has needed for over a decade (pitching) is just that hand wringing.

If Hamilton was on this team they'd still have the best offense and still need pitching.

He wouldn't change a thing.

RBA
07-24-2010, 12:46 PM
WOY is exactly right.

Tornon
07-24-2010, 01:16 PM
Tyler Colvin is after Rickey Henderson's record.. Cubs are up 1-0

membengal
07-24-2010, 01:18 PM
The Cards have also been shut out two games in a row and nine times on the season now.

Sound familiar?

HokieRed
07-24-2010, 01:19 PM
I'm suggesting that the hand wringing over him not being here and the thought that he'd get us to the WS as opposed to what this team has needed for over a decade (pitching) is just that hand wringing.

If Hamilton was on this team they'd still have the best offense and still need pitching.

He wouldn't change a thing.

No question what we need is, and has been, pitching. But it's absurd not to recognize that Hamilton in LF is worth a good bit more than Jonny Gomes and that the pitching we supposedly got, Volquez, has made no contribution whatever to this club's success.

Captain Hook
07-24-2010, 01:53 PM
Castro hit a 2 run bomb.Cubs up 3-2 in the 3rd.

toledodan
07-24-2010, 01:58 PM
4-2 cubs now!:D

Captain Hook
07-24-2010, 01:59 PM
Marlon Byrd with an RBI double that was kind of cool.

4-2 Cubs

Captain Hook
07-24-2010, 02:03 PM
Hawksworth not looking too good today.Maybe the Reds should make some kind of offer while his value is down(we may not have to give up Arroyo now).He'd clearly be one of the top 4 in the Reds organization.

Cedric
07-24-2010, 02:09 PM
Hawksworth not looking too good today.Maybe the Reds should make some kind of offer while his value is down(we may not have to give up Arroyo now).He'd clearly be one of the top 4 in the Reds organization.

Are you being sarcastic?

11larkin11
07-24-2010, 02:10 PM
Man I wish we had Hawksworth. Stud.

membengal
07-24-2010, 02:10 PM
Are you being sarcastic?

Yes, he is. Cross-thread reference. Another redszone member was opining that Hawkesworth is better than Volquez. You can guess who.

Cedric
07-24-2010, 02:11 PM
Yes, he is. Cross-thread reference. Another redszone member was opining that Hawkesworth is better than Volquez. You can guess who.

Absolute dumbest thing ever written if true.

Beats out any whopper you can throw out there.

membengal
07-24-2010, 02:12 PM
Well, I am not making up that it was said. It was in the Volquez thread after his bad game the other day. Enjoy finding it.

Captain Hook
07-24-2010, 02:13 PM
Absolute dumbest thing ever written if true.

Beats out any whopper you can throw out there.

I suppose there would be some honor in writing the dumbest thing ever but unfortunately I was being sarcastic.

Cedric
07-24-2010, 02:16 PM
I suppose there would be some honor in writing the dumbest thing ever but unfortunately I was being sarcastic.

Was speaking on the supposed Volquez < Hawksworth post.

fearofpopvol1
07-24-2010, 02:23 PM
Cards score on a sac fly unfortunately... 4-3 Cubs.

Falls City Beer
07-24-2010, 02:23 PM
Yes, he is. Cross-thread reference. Another redszone member was opining that Hawkesworth is better than Volquez. You can guess who.

That's not what I said. I said in the near term (that is, till the end of the season), I'd rather have someone like Maloney who throws strikes than Volquez who had no clue how to throw a strike Thursday. Basically, it's whether you believe Volquez's Thursday start was a blip or not. And of course if history is any guide, it's not just a blip. Especially when he hasn't pitched to a MLB strike zone in over a year, and he's getting over TJ surgery.

But of course, long-term you take Volquez every time.

Captain Hook
07-24-2010, 02:27 PM
That's not what I said. I said in the near term (that is, till the end of the season), I'd rather have someone like Maloney who throws strikes than Volquez who had no clue how to throw a strike Thursday. Basically, it's whether you believe Volquez's Thursday start was a blip or not. And of course if history is any guide, it's not just a blip. Especially when he hasn't pitched to a MLB strike zone in over a year, and he's getting over TJ surgery.

But of course, long-term you take Volquez every time.

I believe what your said that got the whole thing started was that you'd prefer Suppan and Hawkesworth in our rotation right now over what we have, later naming Volquez and Arroyo as the 2 you'd replace.

Falls City Beer
07-24-2010, 02:29 PM
I believe what your said that got the whole thing started was that you'd prefer Suppan and Hawkesworth in our rotation right now over what we have, later naming Volquez and Arroyo as the 2 you'd replace.

No, I never said I wanted to replace anyone in our rotation with Suppan. Yes, I think Hawksworth could be every bit as productive as Volquez and Arroyo with the Reds defense behind him. But Volquez will likely find his footing and be many times better than Hawksworth as early as next year.

Homer Bailey
07-24-2010, 02:31 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2169529&postcount=114


Hawksworth has been pretty solid. Throws hard, throws strikes. I'd take him over two members of the Reds' rotation.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2169531&postcount=116

When asked which two he'd rather have Hawksworth over:


Arroyo and Volquez. I'd take Volquez though when learns to throw strikes.

Falls City Beer
07-24-2010, 02:33 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2169529&postcount=114



http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2169531&postcount=116

When asked which two he'd rather have Hawksworth over:

Where does what you've posted contradict anything I've said up thread? Sorry, the gotcha moment ain't happenin'. I know what I said. You and others clearly don't.

PuffyPig
07-24-2010, 02:34 PM
No, I never said I wanted to replace anyone in our rotation with Suppan.

That's true.

Though you infered that Suppan is the reliable innings eater who gives you 6 innings of crap every rotation apparently needs.

Homer Bailey
07-24-2010, 02:34 PM
Where does what you've posted contradict anything I've said up thread? Sorry, the gotcha moment ain't happenin'. I know what I said. You and others clearly don't.

All I did was post what you said, since that seemed to be up for debate.

Don't be so defensive.

fearofpopvol1
07-24-2010, 02:39 PM
Cubs up 6-3 after an error on Molina/Boggs! Wow.

PuffyPig
07-24-2010, 02:40 PM
God you gotta love when the Cards play Cubs baseball.

Cubs had the bases laoded, and Boggs uncorks a wild pitch. Molina throws it away trying to get the runner scoring. So two runs score, and runner goes to third, now 6-3.

Hawksworth was uncharacteristically poor today and is out in the 5th inning, charged with 6 runs given up.

Falls City Beer
07-24-2010, 02:45 PM
Cardinals never play this badly. Never. They always play the kind of clean effortlessly tight baseball every Reds fan should pray they get from their team. But this different. This is a different Cards' team. Time to make them pay.

reds44
07-24-2010, 02:49 PM
Rough outing for the man who the Reds should trade Arroyo for.

Homer Bailey
07-24-2010, 02:49 PM
Rough outing for the man who the Reds should trade Arroyo for.

It was the wind dude. Right?

Homer Bailey
07-24-2010, 02:50 PM
I would post the game thread, but I don't want tonight going down on my record.

Nix is batting cleanup.

reds44
07-24-2010, 02:51 PM
I would post the game thread, but I don't want tonight going down on my record.

Nix is batting cleanup.
Lineup?

Homer Bailey
07-24-2010, 02:51 PM
johnfayman #Reds lineup: Phillips 4, Cabrera 6, Votto 3, Nix 7, Bruce 9, Stubbs 8, Hernandez 2, Janish 5, Cueto RHP. Cueto must be OK.

Falls City Beer
07-24-2010, 02:52 PM
Gorzelanny would be another nice arm to pick up. Severe GB tendencies. Would be a welcome addition to an all FB staff.

Captain Hook
07-24-2010, 02:52 PM
I would post the game thread, but I don't want tonight going down on my record.

Nix is batting cleanup.

See Heisey thread for the general RZ opinion on this.

Falls City Beer
07-24-2010, 02:54 PM
Rolen must be in pretty bad shape. Some tough decisions for the FO these next six days.

Going to be an awfully tough thing to sell to season ticket holders if they white flag the deadline.

reds44
07-24-2010, 02:55 PM
It really makes no sense why they just didn't put Rolen on the DL.

Bases loaded for the Cardinals.

Homer Bailey
07-24-2010, 02:57 PM
Gorzelanny would be another nice arm to pick up. Severe GB tendencies. Would be a welcome addition to an all FB staff.

Leake GB % - 49%
Volquez (Career) GB% - 44.1%
Bronson Arroyo GB % - 44%

Gorzelanny GB % - 43.8%

*BaseClogger*
07-24-2010, 02:59 PM
I do really like Gorzelanny, though...

Homer Bailey
07-24-2010, 02:59 PM
^^

I kind of do too.

reds44
07-24-2010, 02:59 PM
And they get out of it.

6-3 going to the bottom of the 6th.

Homer Bailey
07-24-2010, 03:00 PM
It really makes no sense why they just didn't put Rolen on the DL.

Bases loaded for the Cardinals.

It does and it doesn't. I wouldn't say the short bench has hurt the Reds so far. If he's back tomorrow, then there is a whole week of games he can play in that he couldn't have if they would have DL'd him. Cairo has been great, and there hasn't been an extra inning game where the short bench has hurt them.

Doesn't mean it's the right choice, just means its worked out so far.

11larkin11
07-24-2010, 03:01 PM
Leake GB % - 49%
Volquez (Career) GB% - 44.1%
Bronson Arroyo GB % - 44%

Gorzelanny GB % - 43.8%

Stop letting facts get in the way!

Falls City Beer
07-24-2010, 03:08 PM
Leake GB % - 49%
Volquez (Career) GB% - 44.1%
Bronson Arroyo GB % - 44%

Gorzelanny GB % - 43.8%

Where are you getting those percentages? The ones I'm looking at say Gorz gets 52% GB, while Arroyo gets 46%. Leake it's too early to tell.

reds44
07-24-2010, 03:14 PM
1st and 3rd 0 outs for Pujols.

Captain Hook
07-24-2010, 03:14 PM
Runners at 1st and 3rd with 0 out in the 7th for the Cards.

reds44
07-24-2010, 03:18 PM
Just throw him some gas again. If he hits it, it happens.

reds44
07-24-2010, 03:21 PM
The wind must be howling out, because that looked like a routine flyout off the bat.

6-4, man on 1st, 1 out.
Holliday up.

Matt700wlw
07-24-2010, 03:21 PM
Go Cubs!!!

That hurt.

reds44
07-24-2010, 03:22 PM
Soto nails Jay trying to steal 2nd.

reds44
07-24-2010, 03:35 PM
1st and 2nd 0 outs for the Cardinals in the 8th.

Tornon
07-24-2010, 03:38 PM
The cubs are the cubs.. they botch a DP and its now 6-5 Cubs with runners at first and second nobody out top of 8

Tornon
07-24-2010, 03:38 PM
And I have to admit I've never listened to cubs audio before.. Ron Santo sounds like he's constantly in agony

RedsManRick
07-24-2010, 03:39 PM
Theriot lets a double play ball go through his legs. 6-5. Still 1st and 2nd, 0 outs.

reds44
07-24-2010, 03:39 PM
I loate Theriot.

Tornon
07-24-2010, 03:41 PM
They got it this time! 6-5 cubs middle of 8

reds44
07-24-2010, 03:41 PM
ALLLRIGHT Cubs turn that one.

RedsManRick
07-24-2010, 03:41 PM
Got the DP this time. 6-5, bottom of 8.

Homer Bailey
07-24-2010, 03:43 PM
Where are you getting those percentages? The ones I'm looking at say Gorz gets 52% GB, while Arroyo gets 46%. Leake it's too early to tell.

Fangraphs.

reds44
07-24-2010, 03:46 PM
Come on Marmol, be unhittable today.

Tornon
07-24-2010, 03:48 PM
Come on Marmol, be unhittable today.

Well to his credit, he's unhittable just about every day..

reds44
07-24-2010, 03:49 PM
Well to his credit, he's unhittable just about every day..
Be unhittable and don't walk people?

Boy, Theriot is awful.

The Voice of IH
07-24-2010, 03:49 PM
Well to his credit, he's unhittable just about every day..

lol

Tornon
07-24-2010, 03:50 PM
Be unhittable and don't walk people?



There we go