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aubashbrother
07-22-2010, 12:05 AM
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/top-posts/the-cardinals-are-the-front-runners-for-roy-oswalt.php

sabometrics
07-22-2010, 01:29 AM
I'm surprised this board hasn't jumped on this topic like its the end of the world and hurled every possible insult at Walt yet.

nmculbreth
07-22-2010, 01:31 AM
I just can't see the Cards being able to trade for Oswalt. Aside from the fact that the Cardinals are thin on prospects, I can't see them being able to take on Oswalt's contract.

According to Cots the Cardinals are already on the hook for approximately $76 million in 2011 for Holliday, Pujols, Carpenter, Lohse, Wainwright, Molina and Franklin. Additionally Ryan Ludwick will be entering his third year of arbitration and stands to make even more than the $5.45 mil that he is making this year. The situation becomes even more murky in 2012 when they have around $60 million tied up in Holliday, Carpenter, Lohse, Wainwright and Molina plus the $20+ million it will take to keep Albert Pujols.

I just don't see the Cards being able to find a way to add another $16 million in both 2011 and 2012 in order to add Oswalt.

FlyerFanatic
07-22-2010, 01:31 AM
check back tommorow it will be. if the cards get oswalt, kiss the central goodbye

Razzle
07-22-2010, 01:40 AM
As a Cards fan I don't see this happening, nor am I sure I want it to happen. This would undoubtedly cost us Shelby Miller and that is too steep a price to pay for an older (yet still good) expensive Oswalt. As was mentioned by others, the Cards need to have as many cost controlled guys as possible for the inevitable Pujols extension. While it'd be nice for this year, I just see far too much long term damage for this to be worthwhile.

Rijo's Ghost
07-22-2010, 02:08 AM
I just can't see the Cards being able to trade for Oswalt. Aside from the fact that the Cardinals are thin on prospects, I can't see them being able to take on Oswalt's contract.

According to Cots the Cardinals are already on the hook for approximately $76 million in 2011 for Holliday, Pujols, Carpenter, Lohse, Wainwright, Molina and Franklin. Additionally Ryan Ludwick will be entering his third year of arbitration and stands to make even more than the $5.45 mil that he is making this year. The situation becomes even more murky in 2012 when they have around $60 million tied up in Holliday, Carpenter, Lohse, Wainwright and Molina plus the $20+ million it will take to keep Albert Pujols.

I just don't see the Cards being able to find a way to add another $16 million in both 2011 and 2012 in order to add Oswalt.
The rumor mentions Oswalt being open to deferring money with STL. Their payroll is between 90 and 100 every season. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for them to up it to 110 or so for a few years with as good of a group of core players they have. And it's not like they're hurting for attendance. They've only had 1 season since 1998 where they drew fewer than 3 million, and that was 2.9 million in 03.

Hondo
07-22-2010, 06:15 AM
I think Oswalt would be a good addition here in Cincy... But I would hate to give up Alonso, Fancisco, and others for him and his Salary...

BEETTLEBUG
07-22-2010, 07:03 AM
I wouldn"t bring him in he would be ace.

bellhead
07-22-2010, 09:14 AM
It's not going to happen, Oswalt is in the fourth year of a five-year, $73 million deal. The contract, which pays in $15 million this season and $16 million in 2011, includes a $16 million club option for 2012. In order to waive his no-trade clause, Oswalt reportedly wants the team that acquires him to pick up that option year.

The option year is a killer.

lidspinner
07-22-2010, 10:21 AM
Roy is also on the late end of his career....not saying he dont have a few good years left...but he is already losing a few MPH on his FB, his slider does not slide as good as it once did....he is still a great pitcher, but his trend is going to keep going down....its not going upward anymore....so all that money is to much for me....and with the wealth of arms we have right now, Roy is just another clog.....going to the Cardinals might help them this year, but its only going to hurt them in the future so I say go ahead and grab him up St. Louis, go get him.....your farm system is already in shambles, and getting Roy is going to at least take your best guy available.

I see no way the Cardinals make a move for Roy.....

krm1580
07-22-2010, 11:28 AM
Name the last time a team traded away its ace not only to a team in the same league, but in the exact same division? This is not happening. Bank on it.

texasdave
07-22-2010, 11:32 AM
Name the last time a team traded away its ace not only to a team in the same league, but in the exact same division? This is not happening. Bank on it.

About two or three weeks ago. Cliff Lee from Seattle to Texas. While it doesn't happen very often, it does happen.

brm7675
07-22-2010, 11:45 AM
I just can't see the Cards being able to trade for Oswalt. Aside from the fact that the Cardinals are thin on prospects, I can't see them being able to take on Oswalt's contract.

According to Cots the Cardinals are already on the hook for approximately $76 million in 2011 for Holliday, Pujols, Carpenter, Lohse, Wainwright, Molina and Franklin. Additionally Ryan Ludwick will be entering his third year of arbitration and stands to make even more than the $5.45 mil that he is making this year. The situation becomes even more murky in 2012 when they have around $60 million tied up in Holliday, Carpenter, Lohse, Wainwright and Molina plus the $20+ million it will take to keep Albert Pujols.

I just don't see the Cards being able to find a way to add another $16 million in both 2011 and 2012 in order to add Oswalt.

When did the Cards become the Pirates and not be willing to spend money?

brm7675
07-22-2010, 11:46 AM
check back tommorow it will be. if the cards get oswalt, kiss the central goodbye

Why?:confused:

brm7675
07-22-2010, 11:47 AM
I think Oswalt would be a good addition here in Cincy... But I would hate to give up Alonso, Fancisco, and others for him and his Salary...


Can't happen, Oswalt has already said he won't play here.

FlyerFanatic
07-22-2010, 12:28 PM
Why?:confused:

why? cards adding oswalt...we wont win the central. bank on it

redsfanmia
07-22-2010, 12:40 PM
why? cards adding oswalt...we wont win the central. bank on it


Adding Russ Springer and Jason Isringhausen is just as good as the Cardinals adding Oswalt.

"We are just not going to lose anymore".

FlyerFanatic
07-22-2010, 12:52 PM
Adding Russ Springer and Jason Isringhausen is just as good as the Cardinals adding Oswalt.

"We are just not going to lose anymore".

:D

Orodle
07-22-2010, 01:12 PM
I cant imagine why the Astros would trade him within the division with the possibility of him staying there and whooping them for years to come.

GIDP
07-22-2010, 01:13 PM
I seriously doubt the Cardinals have any chance of landing this guy money wise, and probably prospect wise. That being said if they did I guess we have a new 100 million dollar payroll team. Making it the 9th. Also would put them 30 million + over what the Reds currently are able to spend.

30 million would let you buy some of the following players

Miguel Cabrera and Hanley Ramirez
Roy Halladay and Matt Holiday
Ichiro, Dan Haren, and Cliff Lee

bellhead
07-22-2010, 01:24 PM
I am at the point now where I would like to see the Cards get Oswalt, even though it means they will win the division, we will still win the wildcard.

Reasons...

1.) Their minor league system is only sporting a couple of prospects so they will loose one of them. Hurts out rebuilding...
2.) Bloated payroll over the next 2 years will impact their ability to resign players and keep them out of the free agent market.
3.) 2012 Sir Alberts contract is up and their is speculations he will make 30 million a year add in Oswalts 16 million option and Hallidays 17 million, Lohse's 12 million, that right there is 72 million. The Cards payroll would look to be around 110 to 120 million to sign and pick up options on other players they have now.


I think after 2011 or 2012 St. Louis is gonna look a lot like the Stros right now and taking Oswalt on only compounds matters.

Here's a spreadsheet of their payroll..click on the cards...

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/st-louis-cardinals_111971260115041890.html

FlyerFanatic
07-22-2010, 01:28 PM
oswalt to the #cardinals talks are "very real'' according to a competing gm. mlb.com said oswalt wants to go to st. louis

jon heyman of SI

GIDP
07-22-2010, 01:30 PM
I have trouble trusting Jon Heyman on anything. He tends to hear some one elses report and tries to jump on the train.

Unless it comes from Jon Morosi, Ed Price, or maybe even Ken Rosenthal I'm taking it with a grain of salt.

brm7675
07-22-2010, 01:46 PM
I still ask where this view that the Cards don't have money to spend. They showed with the Holiday signing that if they want a player bad enough they will pony up the monies. This idea that the Cards don't have the monies to add Oswalt and Keep Albert down the road is just not correct. PLUS, what is to say they don't deal one of their pitchers in the next season or so? Trust me, if the Cards want Roy, they are not going to let his contract be the sticking point.

FlyerFanatic
07-22-2010, 01:58 PM
I still ask where this view that the Cards don't have money to spend. They showed with the Holiday signing that if they want a player bad enough they will pony up the monies. This idea that the Cards don't have the monies to add Oswalt and Keep Albert down the road is just not correct. PLUS, what is to say they don't deal one of their pitchers in the next season or so? Trust me, if the Cards want Roy, they are not going to let his contract be the sticking point.

thats what i think too. maybe they just dip into their wallet a bit and bump the payroll. that and oswalt would be willing to work with them to help with the costs too

ThatGuy
07-22-2010, 03:09 PM
I've heard rumors as well that Roy wants to go to STL badly enough that he may not require the Cards to pick up the option for 2012.

nmculbreth
07-22-2010, 06:23 PM
When did the Cards become the Pirates and not be willing to spend money?

In the past decade the Cardinals have never had a payroll over $100 mil. Color me skeptical that they're all of the sudden going to bump their payroll up to $110 or $120 million a year.

brm7675
07-22-2010, 06:29 PM
In the past decade the Cardinals have never had a payroll over $100 mil. Color me skeptical that they're all of the sudden going to bump their payroll up to $110 or $120 million a year.

If it means a WS appearance, why wouldn't you? Again they have the money.

ILoveWilly
07-22-2010, 06:34 PM
Let him go and deal with his salary, I think he's overrated and won't make a difference for them anyway. Their issue hasn't ever been pitching anyway.

Vottomatic
07-22-2010, 08:07 PM
I can't see them being able to afford him. Plus, it's been well documented that Oswalt will only accept a trade if his $16M option is picked up. The Cards can't afford to re-sign Pujols for $30M per season, pay Holliday $17M, Carpenter $16M, Oswalt $14-$16M, etc.....with a bunch of other players coming up for raises. I just don't see it.

GIDP
07-22-2010, 08:14 PM
Seriously if the Cards pulled that off they should just be called the Yankees of the Midwest. Talk about high payroll players.

lidspinner
07-22-2010, 08:15 PM
If it means a WS appearance, why wouldn't you? Again they have the money.


sure I would...but I dont think Roy makes them a WS contender.......Again, Roy is on the downside of his career and I am not saying he wont get better, I am just saying the odds of him getting better or staying the same are really slim...he is more than likely going to get worse, alot worse over these next few years....and to get him you are going to have to deplete your minor league system and set it back a few years....so even if it assures them a WS spot, I am not sure they do it....The Cardinals are not the Yankees

Vottomatic
07-22-2010, 08:16 PM
The Cards are getting older and we're getting younger. They will start to fall apart before long. Age catches up with these guys eventually.

lidspinner
07-22-2010, 08:17 PM
Seriously if the Cards pulled that off they should just be called the Yankees of the Midwest. Talk about high payroll players.


and then we could call them the Rangers of the Midwest....cause they will file for bankruptcy within 3 years of making this trade...

BringDownMugabe
07-22-2010, 08:36 PM
The Cards are getting older and we're getting younger. They will start to fall apart before long. Age catches up with these guys eventually.

I wish people would stop believing this. "Waiting" for the Cardinals to age is a horrible approach. How many years have we been waiting for the Cardinals to "age" out of contention?

2002: "Oh, the Cardinals have Andy Benes, Chuck Finley, Darryl Kile, and Tino Martinez...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2004: "Oh, the Cardinals have Woody Williams, Matt Morris, Jim Edmonds, and Jason Isringhausen...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2005: "Oh, the Cardinals have Jeff Suppan, Mark Mulder, Reggie Sanders, and Larry Walker...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2006: "Oh, the Cardinals have Jason Isringhausen, Jeff Weaver, and Sidney Ponson...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2009: "Oh, the Cardinals have Matt Holliday, Troy Glaus, John Smoltz, Khalil Greene, and Ryan Ludwick...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

It's literally the same song and dance every year, except for some reason, everytime the Cardinals go out and get somebody at the deadline, there's a group of Reds fans who use their 'age' against them as if it actually means anything. Hoping for something different over and over again meanwhile seeing the same result is the definition of insanity.

Sorry but the Cardinals know how to win. "But our farm system is better!" Yeah, it's been better since 2003. Yet, in that same time span, the Cardinals only got a handful of Division Championships and a World Series title meanwhile the Reds contended for the playoffs once...in 2006...until August.

I'm kind of derailing here, but I wanted to address this issue. Some people are against giving up part of our farm system. Sorry but the goal isn't to have a good Baseball American rankings...it's to win World Series championships. The Cardinals realize this...don't know if I can say the same about the Reds.

lidspinner
07-22-2010, 08:41 PM
our fans, and managt would rather keep toung prospects as opposed to trading them for guys like Matt H and other MLB ready starters.......I guess it all boild down to what market your in...if you dont mind spending money then its ok to trade young talent, but if your low market, then keep your talent.....its your only hope at winning....I just want the Reds to finally start winning...I dont care how...buy it, build it whatever....

Vottomatic
07-22-2010, 08:56 PM
I wish people would stop believing this. "Waiting" for the Cardinals to age is a horrible approach. How many years have we been waiting for the Cardinals to "age" out of contention?

2002: "Oh, the Cardinals have Andy Benes, Chuck Finley, Darryl Kile, and Tino Martinez...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2004: "Oh, the Cardinals have Woody Williams, Matt Morris, Jim Edmonds, and Jason Isringhausen...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2005: "Oh, the Cardinals have Jeff Suppan, Mark Mulder, Reggie Sanders, and Larry Walker...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2006: "Oh, the Cardinals have Jason Isringhausen, Jeff Weaver, and Sidney Ponson...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2009: "Oh, the Cardinals have Matt Holliday, Troy Glaus, John Smoltz, Khalil Greene, and Ryan Ludwick...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

It's literally the same song and dance every year, except for some reason, everytime the Cardinals go out and get somebody at the deadline, there's a group of Reds fans who use their 'age' against them as if it actually means anything. Hoping for something different over and over again meanwhile seeing the same result is the definition of insanity.

Sorry but the Cardinals know how to win. "But our farm system is better!" Yeah, it's been better since 2003. Yet, in that same time span, the Cardinals only got a handful of Division Championships and a World Series title meanwhile the Reds contended for the playoffs once...in 2006...until August.

I'm kind of derailing here, but I wanted to address this issue. Some people are against giving up part of our farm system. Sorry but the goal isn't to have a good Baseball American rankings...it's to win World Series championships. The Cardinals realize this...don't know if I can say the same about the Reds.

I got your answer.

BECAUSE EVERY TEAM THAT HAS FOUGHT THE CARDINALS FOR THE CENTRAL DIVISION TITLE HAS TRADED AWAY THEIR PROSPECTS AND MORTGAGED THEIR FUTURE, AND WERE UNABLE TO SUSTAIN CONTENDING EVERY YEAR.

Uh...........my goal isn't to make the Baseball American rankings either. My goal is to build through the minor leagues.

Gee, it isn't coincidence that this is the Reds first real season of contending in like 10+ years because of VOTTO, BRUCE, STUBBS, HEISEY, HANIGAN, JANISH, CUETO, LEAKE, WOOD, LECURE, MALONEY, BAILEY, JANISH, DICKERSON, ONDRUSEK, FISHER, AND JORDAN SMITH all came through the Reds draft and minor league system of development!!!!

Might want to re-think that disrespecting of a good minor league system way of thinking you have there dude, since 40% of our 40-man roster is made up of guys who were once PROSPECTS.

Wonder where we'd be if we'd have traded Votto, Cueto, and others in previous seasons to go for it all!!!!!!!!! Yee-haw!!!!! :rolleyes:

BringDownMugabe
07-22-2010, 09:06 PM
I got your answer.

BECAUSE EVERY TEAM THAT HAS FOUGHT THE CARDINALS FOR THE CENTRAL DIVISION TITLE HAS TRADED AWAY THEIR PROSPECTS AND MORTGAGED THEIR FUTURE, AND WERE UNABLE TO SUSTAIN CONTENDING EVERY YEAR.

Really? I'd love to see some examples of this.


Uh...........my goal isn't to make the Baseball American rankings either. My goal is to build through the minor leagues.

And now we have. The core of young players that came up through our system is here now. Votto, Bruce, Volquez, Cueto, Stubbs, Phillips, Heisey, Wood, Leake. We have the core....now it's time to go out of the organization and land a top player that can help us now.


Gee, it isn't coincidence that this is the Reds first real season of contending in like 10+ years because of VOTTO, BRUCE, STUBBS, HEISEY, HANIGAN, JANISH, CUETO, LEAKE, WOOD, LECURE, MALONEY, BAILEY, JANISH, DICKERSON, ONDRUSEK, FISHER, AND JORDAN SMITH all came through the Reds draft and minor league system of development!!!!

Might want to re-think that disrespecting of a good minor league system way of thinking you have there dude, since 40% of our 40-man roster is made up of guys who were once PROSPECTS.

Wonder where we'd be if we'd have traded Votto, Cueto, and others in previous seasons to go for it all!!!!!!!!! Yee-haw!!!!! :rolleyes:

Where did I ever mention trading Votto and Cueto? You're putting words in my mouth.

The time to contend is right now. If we can land a top player by trading Alonso, Frazier, or Mesoraco, you shouldn't have to think twice.

Hondo
07-22-2010, 09:13 PM
Really? I'd love to see some examples of this.



And now we have. The core of young players that came up through our system is here now. Votto, Bruce, Volquez, Cueto, Stubbs, Phillips, Heisey, Wood, Leake. We have the core....now it's time to go out of the organization and land a top player that can help us now.



Where did I ever mention trading Votto and Cueto? You're putting words in my mouth.

The time to contend is right now. If we can land a top player by trading Alonso, Frazier, or Mesoraco, you shouldn't have to think twice.


I dont think this team ever really tried to trade Votto did they?

I Love him more now with his Marlon Byrd All-Star Cubs Jersey Quote...

HE is the Larry Bird of Baseball!

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-22-2010, 09:28 PM
This just posted on ESPN: Oswalt prefers trade to Cards

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5402582&campaign=rss&source=twitter&ex_cid=Twitter_espn_5402582

Revering4Blue
07-22-2010, 11:19 PM
Jayson Stark of ESPN.com reports that the Cardinals have offered two current major league players to the Astros for ace Roy Oswalt.

It sure sounds like the Cards are trying to pull off this deal without including top pitching prospect Shelby Miller. If it works, the Astros really are worse off than we thought both financially and intellectually. Cardinals youngsters Jon Jay, Allen Craig and Fernando Salas may be involved.

Rijo's Ghost
07-23-2010, 12:16 AM
The Cards are getting older and we're getting younger. They will start to fall apart before long. Age catches up with these guys eventually.
Not nearly as old some think. The Cardinals' average age for position players this season is 28.7. The Reds is 29.3. Pitching age is 29.5 to the Reds 28.1.

Their oldest starting position player is Ryan Ludwick, who is 31. Their current 25 man roster has 15 players either drafted by them or spent time in their minor league system.

Until they have two down seasons in a row I think it's safe to assume that they are the class of the division. We say they're getting old or don't have the prospects or don't have the money every single season, yet they've had 1 season below .500 in the last 11 years, and they won 78 games that season.

texasdave
07-23-2010, 12:28 AM
Not nearly as old some think. The Cardinals' average age for position players this season is 28.7. The Reds is 29.3. Pitching age is 29.5 to the Reds 28.1.

Their oldest starting position player is Ryan Ludwick, who is 31. Their current 25 man roster has 15 players either drafted by them or spent time in their minor league system.

Until they have two down seasons in a row I think it's safe to assume that they are the class of the division. We say they're getting old or don't have the prospects or don't have the money every single season, yet they've had 1 season below .500 in the last 11 years, and they won 78 games that season.

I guess we should take heart in the fact that Walt Jocketty was the GM for a number of those seasons.

Rijo's Ghost
07-23-2010, 01:06 AM
I guess we should take heart in the fact that Walt Jocketty was the GM for a number of those seasons.
True, but keep in mind that the only good trades he's made in the last 8 years that weren't pure salary dumps were both for Scott Rolen. He was really good in the early 2000's and then made a bunch of really bad moves leading to his firing. Haren for Mulder, Carpenter's extension, Isringhausen's extension, Edmonds extension etc.

This is the year that he needs to prove he's still got it.

TheBigLebowski
07-23-2010, 07:34 AM
I wish people would stop believing this. "Waiting" for the Cardinals to age is a horrible approach. How many years have we been waiting for the Cardinals to "age" out of contention?

2002: "Oh, the Cardinals have Andy Benes, Chuck Finley, Darryl Kile, and Tino Martinez...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2004: "Oh, the Cardinals have Woody Williams, Matt Morris, Jim Edmonds, and Jason Isringhausen...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2005: "Oh, the Cardinals have Jeff Suppan, Mark Mulder, Reggie Sanders, and Larry Walker...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2006: "Oh, the Cardinals have Jason Isringhausen, Jeff Weaver, and Sidney Ponson...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2009: "Oh, the Cardinals have Matt Holliday, Troy Glaus, John Smoltz, Khalil Greene, and Ryan Ludwick...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

It's literally the same song and dance every year, except for some reason, everytime the Cardinals go out and get somebody at the deadline, there's a group of Reds fans who use their 'age' against them as if it actually means anything. Hoping for something different over and over again meanwhile seeing the same result is the definition of insanity.

Sorry but the Cardinals know how to win. "But our farm system is better!" Yeah, it's been better since 2003. Yet, in that same time span, the Cardinals only got a handful of Division Championships and a World Series title meanwhile the Reds contended for the playoffs once...in 2006...until August.

I'm kind of derailing here, but I wanted to address this issue. Some people are against giving up part of our farm system. Sorry but the goal isn't to have a good Baseball American rankings...it's to win World Series championships. The Cardinals realize this...don't know if I can say the same about the Reds.

You're trying to reason with the same folks who are still gnashing their teeth over losing Zach Stewart in the Rolen trade.

Trace's Daddy
07-23-2010, 09:33 AM
I wonder how frequently the Cards sell out vs. the Reds - like in the past 5 years? If we win more, then sell more tickets, keep winning, then payroll should increase to the point where Cincy could make a move like that. The Reds are at the beginning of that cycle while the Cards are enjoying the fruits of their success.

Rijo's Ghost
07-23-2010, 01:57 PM
I wonder how frequently the Cards sell out vs. the Reds - like in the past 5 years? If we win more, then sell more tickets, keep winning, then payroll should increase to the point where Cincy could make a move like that. The Reds are at the beginning of that cycle while the Cards are enjoying the fruits of their success.

The most attendance Cincinnati has had in 10 years was 2.59 million in 2000 with the opening of Cinergy Field. The last time the Cardinals drew fewer than that was 1997. From 2000-2009 the Reds drew 20,921,090, the Cardinals drew 32,641,386. For the last five years the numbers are 9,943,719 Reds and 17,224,746. Head to head, the last time the Reds outdrew the Cardinals, in a non strike shortened season, was 1980, 30 years ago.

texasdave
07-23-2010, 02:11 PM
It must stink to live in St. Louis. The only thing to do there is go watch the Cardinals. That's pretty much what I think hell must be like. :)

Red in Atl
07-23-2010, 02:16 PM
It must stink to live in St. Louis. The only thing to do there is go watch the Cardinals. That's pretty much what I think hell must be like. :)

I went there for work about 5 years ago. Just an awful downtown. What a mess that place was.

I just don't get how the Astros could even consider trading Oswalt to any team in their division. He doesn't want to leave Texas. Everytime he plays Houston if he does get traded, he will have it in for them. Terrible terrible move if you are the Astros, and I really don't see it happening.

brm7675
07-23-2010, 02:19 PM
I went there for work about 5 years ago. Just an awful downtown. What a mess that place was.

I just don't get how the Astros could even consider trading Oswalt to any team in their division. He doesn't want to leave Texas. Everytime he plays Houston if he does get traded, he will have it in for them. Terrible terrible move if you are the Astros, and I really don't see it happening.

Real simple the Astros are in a rebuiling mode, 1 pitcher can only do so much, if you can add some talented players for 1 who for the most part is begining his downward slide, and get some money off your books you do it. Plus with the WC now, winning the division doesn't dominate as much. If I was the Stros I do it in a heartbeat.

Orodle
07-23-2010, 02:38 PM
I wish people would stop believing this. "Waiting" for the Cardinals to age is a horrible approach. How many years have we been waiting for the Cardinals to "age" out of contention?

2002: "Oh, the Cardinals have Andy Benes, Chuck Finley, Darryl Kile, and Tino Martinez...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2004: "Oh, the Cardinals have Woody Williams, Matt Morris, Jim Edmonds, and Jason Isringhausen...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2005: "Oh, the Cardinals have Jeff Suppan, Mark Mulder, Reggie Sanders, and Larry Walker...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2006: "Oh, the Cardinals have Jason Isringhausen, Jeff Weaver, and Sidney Ponson...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

2009: "Oh, the Cardinals have Matt Holliday, Troy Glaus, John Smoltz, Khalil Greene, and Ryan Ludwick...they're old and they'll have to start rebuilding next season."

It's literally the same song and dance every year, except for some reason, everytime the Cardinals go out and get somebody at the deadline, there's a group of Reds fans who use their 'age' against them as if it actually means anything. Hoping for something different over and over again meanwhile seeing the same result is the definition of insanity.

Sorry but the Cardinals know how to win. "But our farm system is better!" Yeah, it's been better since 2003. Yet, in that same time span, the Cardinals only got a handful of Division Championships and a World Series title meanwhile the Reds contended for the playoffs once...in 2006...until August.

I'm kind of derailing here, but I wanted to address this issue. Some people are against giving up part of our farm system. Sorry but the goal isn't to have a good Baseball American rankings...it's to win World Series championships. The Cardinals realize this...don't know if I can say the same about the Reds.


Perfectly said, sums up the thoughts on this boards all the time. You basically said whats in my mind :)

+50 bonus points

Rijo's Ghost
07-23-2010, 02:43 PM
Real simple the Astros are in a rebuiling mode, 1 pitcher can only do so much, if you can add some talented players for 1 who for the most part is begining his downward slide, and get some money off your books you do it. Plus with the WC now, winning the division doesn't dominate as much. If I was the Stros I do it in a heartbeat.

Yep. They can either keep him and be a bad team or trade him and be a bad team with a couple more prospects and 16 mil extra a year to invest in better players.

Red in Atl
07-23-2010, 02:49 PM
Real simple the Astros are in a rebuiling mode, 1 pitcher can only do so much, if you can add some talented players for 1 who for the most part is begining his downward slide, and get some money off your books you do it. Plus with the WC now, winning the division doesn't dominate as much. If I was the Stros I do it in a heartbeat.

It's not real simple. Do you think they are the only team in rebuilding mode? And there are a number of teams who would like to get Roy. The Cardinals farm system is pretty much depleted after getting Holiday last year and years of abuse. Plus Oswalt will be a top starter for a good 5 more years, ready to kick some Astro butt.

But the big reason to me is why in the hell would you help another team in your division win this year and help them remain dominant for a few more? Maybe I'm old school, but I hate every team in our division and you couldn't pay me enough to help any of them out!

Red in Atl
07-23-2010, 02:51 PM
Yep. They can either keep him and be a bad team or trade him and be a bad team with a couple more prospects and 16 mil extra a year to invest in better players.

I'm not saying they don't trade him. I'm saying you don't trade a top tier starter to another team in the division that you have to play 20 times every year.

Just dumb, unless you have a chance to get a true future star like a Heyward or a Chapman. Haven't heard any names like that coming out of the Cardinals Farm system.

brm7675
07-23-2010, 02:53 PM
It's not real simple. Do you think they are the only team in rebuilding mode? And there are a number of teams who would like to get Roy. The Cardinals farm system is pretty much depleted after getting Holiday last year and years of abuse. Plus Oswalt will be a top starter for a good 5 more years, ready to kick some Astro butt.

But the big reason to me is why in the hell would you help another team in your division win this year and help them remain dominant for a few more? Maybe I'm old school, but I hate every team in our division and you couldn't pay me enough to help any of them out!


All it takes is 1 team to trade with. It's doesn't matter how many teams want Roy, he and only he decides whom he will play for with his "no trade" clause. The Cards have talent to deal. Do you really see Oswalt being dominate in 3-4 years? I don't, with PED's gone, players bodies can't maintain it through their late 30's like they use to. Your right, your old school, and "old school" is long gone, teams play to win NOW.

brm7675
07-23-2010, 02:54 PM
I'm not saying they don't trade him. I'm saying you don't trade a top tier starter to another team in the division that you have to play 20 times every year.

Just dumb, unless you have a chance to get a true future star like a Heyward or a Chapman. Haven't heard any names like that coming out of the Cardinals Farm system.

Of those 20 games how many times will you see him, what at best 4 times? It's not like the Cards trading Albert who plays everyday, we are talking about a pitcher.

Chapman = future star? Jury way still out on that.

GIDP
07-23-2010, 03:01 PM
ESPN's Jayson Stark reports that the Cardinals are willing to make Brendan Ryan and Jon Jay available in the Roy Oswalt trade talks.

Yea basically they are offering Heisey and Janish. If thats true it will be no wonder why the Astros are the Astros.

Magdal
07-23-2010, 03:02 PM
Oswalt wants to be a Card, but the Stro's will want the farm for him. St. Louis right now HAS no farm. They would have to give them Ludwick, Boggs or Mott and Shelby Miller. I just dont see the 2 teams coming to an agreement on this one....unless 1 bites a big bullet.

Vottomatic
07-23-2010, 03:08 PM
Cards got lucky when they won it all. They weren't the best team.

They're on the verge of a payroll explosion they can't handle. A few good players and a weak supporting cast is on the way. Their farm system is in shambles.

Our farm system has provided 40% or more of our 25-man roster. And we've been trading first place all season with the Cards.

So many people on this board want to give up the farm for a shot in the dark. That's just plain stupid. The train of thought on this message board would have traded Votto and Cueto years ago if we had been in the thick of it then. Good thing we weren't. Some of our current prospects could be the next Joey Votto at the major league level. Some could be busts. But you have to factor in the Reds being small market, and this is the way they have to do things.

If you can't except that, go find another team to root for.

Red in Atl
07-23-2010, 03:14 PM
All it takes is 1 team to trade with. It's doesn't matter how many teams want Roy, he and only he decides whom he will play for with his "no trade" clause. The Cards have talent to deal. Do you really see Oswalt being dominate in 3-4 years? I don't, with PED's gone, players bodies can't maintain it through their late 30's like they use to. Your right, your old school, and "old school" is long gone, teams play to win NOW.

Teams play to win now? But you just said Houston is in rebuilding mode and they should trade Oswalt within the division because they can get talent to rebuild. So which is it? BTW, teams have playing to win now since George bought the Yankees and probably before, but I'm not that old.

You seem to think you are going to change my mind or just make me out to be a fool? This is my opinion. I don't help a team in my division win. That is just plain stupid. I help them by hurting me? In the same breathe why would the Cards want to give up a bunch of talent that will hurt them in the future?

In the old school days, you didn't have to play the division as much as you do now. Trading within will hurt a lot more than it used too.

Revering4Blue
07-23-2010, 03:17 PM
According to a National League executive, the Astros have said the package must include two top prospects, a third minor-league player, and a young player who is "major-league ready."

The Twins can meet the Astro's demands.

That is, if Oswalt doesn't block a potential deal.

Red in Atl
07-23-2010, 03:17 PM
Cards got lucky when they won it all. They weren't the best team.

They're on the verge of a payroll explosion they can't handle. A few good players and a weak supporting cast is on the way. Their farm system is in shambles.

Our farm system has provided 40% or more of our 25-man roster. And we've been trading first place all season with the Cards.

So many people on this board want to give up the farm for a shot in the dark. That's just plain stupid. The train of thought on this message board would have traded Votto and Cueto years ago if we had been in the thick of it then. Good thing we weren't. Some of our current prospects could be the next Joey Votto at the major league level. Some could be busts. But you have to factor in the Reds being small market, and this is the way they have to do things.

If you can't except that, go find another team to root for.

:beerme:

Rijo's Ghost
07-23-2010, 03:59 PM
Cards got lucky when they won it all. They weren't the best team.

They're on the verge of a payroll explosion they can't handle. A few good players and a weak supporting cast is on the way. Their farm system is in shambles.

Our farm system has provided 40% or more of our 25-man roster. And we've been trading first place all season with the Cards.

So many people on this board want to give up the farm for a shot in the dark. That's just plain stupid. The train of thought on this message board would have traded Votto and Cueto years ago if we had been in the thick of it then. Good thing we weren't. Some of our current prospects could be the next Joey Votto at the major league level. Some could be busts. But you have to factor in the Reds being small market, and this is the way they have to do things.

If you can't except that, go find another team to root for.

The Cardinals can easily handle a payroll expansion. They draw 3 mil+ a year in their sleep. At any given time this season 60% of their team has consisted of players that were either drafted by them or spent time in their farm system. Their farm has been in shambles for years but keeps pumping out MLB quality players. They do a good job of drafting a mix of high floor/low ceiling safe picks and high ceiling risky picks. Their plan is almost always the same. Have a good back end of a bullpen, 2 good starters, and a core of 3 good hitters. Mix and match in league average production everywhere else and you're going to win 90 games.

Razzle
07-24-2010, 02:31 AM
They're on the verge of a payroll explosion they can't handle. A few good players and a weak supporting cast is on the way. Their farm system is in shambles.

Our farm system has provided 40% or more of our 25-man roster. And we've been trading first place all season with the Cards. At least 40% of the Cards roster are guys who came from the farm as well. Wainwright, Garcia, Molina, Pujols, Schumaker, Ryan, Rasmus, Greene, Craig, Jay, Motte, McClellan, Hawksworth, Boggs, and Freese all came from the Cards minor league system.


The Twins can meet the Astro's demands.

That is, if Oswalt doesn't block a potential deal.
Nobody is going to meet those demands for Oswalt. He's 33 years old and being paid exactly to the level of production he offers. If the Astros demand that much they will be holding onto him, especially since they can't choose where to trade him and Oswalt wants that extra year picked up.