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markymark69
07-22-2010, 03:53 PM
Trade proposal from ESPN - also listed on Lance McAllister's blog.

5 trades that need to happen
ESPN
2. The Cincinnati Reds shore up their bullpen by trading SS Zack Cozart to the Houston Astros for RHP Matt Lindstrom, and acquire RHP Michael Wuertz from the Oakland Athletics in exchange for OF Chris Heisey and LHP Donnie Joseph.

sivman17
07-22-2010, 03:57 PM
Bahhh those are horrible trades!!! Why would we want to give up Cozart or Heisey?

Orodle
07-22-2010, 04:00 PM
To get better now. But would it be worth it?

Hillsdale87
07-22-2010, 04:03 PM
Those 2 guys would not make our bullpen much better, and certainly not enough to trade 3 quality prospects. No thanks

NorrisHopper30
07-22-2010, 04:07 PM
No and NO. Donnie Joseph is gonna be a stud and Cozart could be here next year. No no no no

Kiss the Baby00
07-22-2010, 04:09 PM
i agree with everyone else. NO to those trades. middle relievers are a dime a doz

Jack Burton
07-22-2010, 04:13 PM
This is serious? What a joke

redsfan_12
07-22-2010, 04:17 PM
That is stupid. Why give up Heisey and Cozart?!?

redsfanmia
07-22-2010, 04:18 PM
That is stupid. Why give up Heisey and Cozart?!?

To make the play-offs this year.

mrherd05
07-22-2010, 04:20 PM
If all thoseguys are studs, and our team is ok now, then where are they going to play.

Cozart is a stud? Are you serious?

You do realize you have to trade something to get something, right??

I would love to have Lindstrom

brm7675
07-22-2010, 04:29 PM
no, let me repeat...NO, LETS SAY IT ALL TOGETHER NO. You do not trade everyday players for bullpen help.

mrherd05
07-22-2010, 04:34 PM
Cozart plays every day in the minors....Heisey bats four times a week....yes, you trade those types of players for bullpen help to help get to something this organization has not been to in 15 years.

markymark69
07-22-2010, 04:38 PM
no, let me repeat...NO, LETS SAY IT ALL TOGETHER NO. You do not trade everyday players for bullpen help.

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the proposals, I only presented it for discussion, but I must make a couple of points. Cozart is in the minor leagues and the Reds have three other people who could play that position (Valaika, Janish and Frazier) outside of Cabrera - and Heisey is not an everyday player. Whether he should be or not is debatable, but he is not an everyday player and with Bruce, Stubbs, Gomes, Dickerson it's not likely he will be any time soon.

brm7675
07-22-2010, 04:38 PM
Cozart plays every day in the minors....Heisey bats four times a week....yes, you trade those types of players for bullpen help to help get to something this organization has not been to in 15 years.

Heisey is misused by our manager, you DON"T give up grade A quality players for bullpen help, well you do if you are an idiot. Second whom is our SS of the future? Bullpen arms are a dime a dozen, what's to say Springer and Izzy can't do what these guys would do and guess what...IT'S NOT COSTING US ANYTHING.:thumbup:

brm7675
07-22-2010, 04:40 PM
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the proposals, I only presented it for discussion, but I must make a couple of points. Cozart is in the minor leagues and the Reds have three other people who could play that position (Valaika, Janish and Frazier) outside of Cabrera - and Heisey is not an everyday player. Whether he should be or not is debatable, but he is not an everyday player and with Bruce, Stubbs, Gomes, Dickerson it's not likely he will be any time soon.

A) Gomes will not be with the Reds next season
B) You can't believe Dickerson is anywhere near the talent of Heisey
C) Janish will never be a starter, Dusty hates him, Frazier is our replacement at second when they deal Phillips. I see Valaika getting moved to third to replace Rolen next season at some point.

markymark69
07-22-2010, 04:46 PM
Heisey is misused by our manager, you DON"T give up grade A quality players for bullpen help, well you do if you are an idiot. Second whom is our SS of the future? Bullpen arms are a dime a dozen, what's to say Springer and Izzy can't do what these guys would do and guess what...IT'S NOT COSTING US ANYTHING.:thumbup:

Springer and Izzy can do the job and I hope they do, believe me I hope they do. But, if they don't the Reds are setting themselves up for criticism, probably from guys like you. Especially if the Cardinals get Oswalt.

GIDP
07-22-2010, 04:48 PM
Trade proposal from ESPN - also listed on Lance McAllister's blog.

5 trades that need to happen
ESPN
2. The Cincinnati Reds shore up their bullpen by trading SS Zack Cozart to the Houston Astros for RHP Matt Lindstrom, and acquire RHP Michael Wuertz from the Oakland Athletics in exchange for OF Chris Heisey and LHP Donnie Joseph.

Cozart is the only Reds SS in the system close to the major leagues. I would have a really hard time getting behind a trade of Cozart.

Wuertz for Heisey and Joesph? Thats just silly to suggest.

GIDP
07-22-2010, 04:49 PM
Cozart plays every day in the minors....Heisey bats four times a week....yes, you trade those types of players for bullpen help to help get to something this organization has not been to in 15 years.

Every player in the majors has "played every day in the minors" at some point.

markymark69
07-22-2010, 04:50 PM
A) Gomes will not be with the Reds next season
B) You can't believe Dickerson is anywhere near the talent of Heisey
C) Janish will never be a starter, Dusty hates him, Frazier is our replacement at second when they deal Phillips. I see Valaika getting moved to third to replace Rolen next season at some point.

Possibly with Gomes. Dickerson has received more of a shot than Heisey has , injuries however may prove to be his downfall and you may be right on shortstop, but all three can play shortstop if it comes to that.

RedsFanInBama
07-22-2010, 05:00 PM
I think adding Lindstrom would be nice, but Cozart is 24 or 25 and from all indications will be looking at a lot of playing time in Cincinnati next season, possibly the every-day shortstop. I don't know if I'd move him for a guy who is basically going to be a set-up man for at least the next year and a half. As long as Cordero is here, I don't see anyone else closing. I'd love to add Lindstrom to close because, while he's not much of an upgrade over Cordero, he's much cheaper and could get the job done.

The biggest problem with improving our bullpen right now is Cordero's ridiculous contract. And it's not going anywhere any time soon. What idiot GM made that deal, by the way?

sivman17
07-22-2010, 05:01 PM
Every player in the majors has "played every day in the minors" at some point.

Not Leake

GIDP
07-22-2010, 05:02 PM
Not Leake

Gottem!

Griffey012
07-22-2010, 05:08 PM
Heisey is by far our best pinch hitter, that is a very valuable piece to the team THIS season, especially for a playoff charge.

Texas Pete
07-22-2010, 05:53 PM
I'm not too familiar with all minor league prospects(kind of a n00b I guess), but Lindstrom could help the team in my opinion.

brm7675
07-22-2010, 06:12 PM
I'm not too familiar with all minor league prospects(kind of a n00b I guess), but Lindstrom could help the team in my opinion.


I don't anyone is saying he couldn't, but you don't trade good young talent for bullpen arms, it's just not worth it.

kfm
07-22-2010, 06:18 PM
A) Gomes will not be with the Reds next season
B) You can't believe Dickerson is anywhere near the talent of Heisey
C) Janish will never be a starter, Dusty hates him, Frazier is our replacement at second when they deal Phillips. I see Valaika getting moved to third to replace Rolen next season at some point.

Why won't Gomes be here next year? I thought he was under contract for next year as well for a relatively low price.

TC81190
07-22-2010, 06:29 PM
I'd do Heisey or Cozart for Lindstrom no problem. I'd do it for that old Marmol rumor too. Not Wuertz though.

This team needs another A+ player in each of the three key spots. Bullpen, rotation, and lineup. Now the bullpen could probably be easily dealt with by dealing a B prospect like one of those trades above. But the team really hurt itself by missing out on Cliff Lee. They still need a player of equal caliber to him for the rotation. And probably another player just a notch below that caliber for the everyday lineup.

We might make it to the playoffs, but without those additions, we would be one and done in the NLDS facing another teams shutdown players that we don't have.

brm7675
07-22-2010, 06:48 PM
Why won't Gomes be here next year? I thought he was under contract for next year as well for a relatively low price.

i believe he signed a 1 year deal and if he is here it is with a team option and with Heisey here, there is no reason to keep him.

brm7675
07-22-2010, 06:49 PM
We might make it to the playoffs, but without those additions, we would be one and done in the NLDS facing another teams shutdown players that we don't have.

I would rather have this and not trade away any young talent.

Vottomatic
07-22-2010, 07:00 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't want to make any trades unless we acquire the cream of the crop at some position, namely an ace starting pitcher or superior bullpen help.

Trading away our future for average players doesn't get me excited. We already have a bunch of average players with a few studs mixed in..........that's why we're looking to bolster certain areas.

If we're not going to get back something ALOT BETTER, I hope we pass.

Vottomatic
07-22-2010, 07:02 PM
This is the Reds first good year in a long while. The team isn't built for just this year. They are built to contend for many a year with help on the way in the minors.

We should go to war with what we got unless we can acquire a HUGE difference maker.

lidspinner
07-22-2010, 07:37 PM
the one big falsie I see in this thread is the quote "bullpen arms are a dime a dozen"....UHHHH, no they are not. Each team in the hunt is looking for pen arms because they are nowhere to be found......a good pen is just as important as any other spot on this roster.....not saying I would give up ZC but I would sure look into it...feel it out so to say......prospects are just that, prospects. ZC might not even be in a uniform in 5 years where as a good arm in the pen is probably still going to be around. ZC might win the MVP also, so its a tough call.....but lets not act like we can pick up a bull pen arm at any 7-11 on the corner.

BringDownMugabe
07-22-2010, 07:40 PM
No and NO. Donnie Joseph is gonna be a stud and Cozart could be here next year. No no no no

:rolleyes:

Sorry but you're completely overrating our prospects. "Stud Prospects" usually show up in 'Top Prospect' lists...something Joseph is not only absent from, but not even sniffing. Same goes for Janis -- err, I mean Cozart.

BringDownMugabe
07-22-2010, 07:43 PM
This is the Reds first good year in a long while. The team isn't built for just this year. They are built to contend for many a year with help on the way in the minors.

We should go to war with what we got unless we can acquire a HUGE difference maker.

Sorry but it's never a good idea to assume contention in future years -- especially when part of your reasoning includes unproven prospects. Weren't the 'Baby D-Backs' assuming they were going to contend annually? Now they're rebuilding. When the A's had the trio...they didn't win any championships. The Twins...the same deal.

Sorry, but if you're in contention come the deadline, you go for the World Series. Period. Worry about the future later and concentrate on the present.

Vottomatic
07-22-2010, 07:47 PM
Sorry but it's never a good idea to assume contention in future years -- especially when part of your reasoning includes unproven prospects. Weren't the 'Baby D-Backs' assuming they were going to contend annually? Now they're rebuilding. When the A's had the trio...they didn't win any championships. The Twins...the same deal.

Sorry, but if you're in contention come the deadline, you go for the World Series. Period. Worry about the future later and concentrate on the present.

Says you.

We won't make the World Series because ownership isn't going to make a trade that adds significant payroll.

We're going to war with what we got, like it or not. :rolleyes:

Newman4
07-22-2010, 07:50 PM
I like the first option better than the second. By the way, I am at Yankee stadium watching the royals run out Jason kendall, mike aviles, willie bloomquist and yunesky betancourt. Here's a slobber knocker for ya....homer Bailey, donnie Joseph,cozart, Todd Fraser and heisey for greinke, soria and dejesus?

BringDownMugabe
07-22-2010, 07:51 PM
Says you.

We won't make the World Series because ownership isn't going to make a trade that adds significant payroll.

We're going to war with what we got, like it or not. :rolleyes:

That's great and all but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it and doesn't mean I'm wrong. Just look at history and the teams I listed.

Hondo
07-22-2010, 07:56 PM
To get better now. But would it be worth it?

Dude, those are awful Trades...

Go for a guy like Soria if ya want to upgrade the Bull Penn...

Hondo
07-22-2010, 07:57 PM
I like the first option better than the second. By the way, I am at Yankee stadium watching the royals run out Jason kendall, mike aviles, willie bloomquist and yunesky betancourt. Here's a slobber knocker for ya....homer Bailey, donnie Joseph,cozart, Todd Fraser and heisey for greinke, soria and dejesus?

Ya know I doubt the Royals would give up Greinke... But I LOVE the IDEA... A Great young pitcher under contract...

Thats what ya give up Prospects for... Not a rent a Player...

I dont like DeJesus, But Greinke & Soria for a group of like 5 Prospects... YES YES YES

Hondo
07-22-2010, 07:59 PM
the one big falsie I see in this thread is the quote "bullpen arms are a dime a dozen"....UHHHH, no they are not. Each team in the hunt is looking for pen arms because they are nowhere to be found......a good pen is just as important as any other spot on this roster.....not saying I would give up ZC but I would sure look into it...feel it out so to say......prospects are just that, prospects. ZC might not even be in a uniform in 5 years where as a good arm in the pen is probably still going to be around. ZC might win the MVP also, so its a tough call.....but lets not act like we can pick up a bull pen arm at any 7-11 on the corner.

Yes I agree 100%

But dont give up Prospects for Journeyman relievers, which I know a lot of them are... But go for a SORIA... Someone that other teams go...

Woah!

Vottomatic
07-22-2010, 08:00 PM
I like the first option better than the second. By the way, I am at Yankee stadium watching the royals run out Jason kendall, mike aviles, willie bloomquist and yunesky betancourt. Here's a slobber knocker for ya....homer Bailey, donnie Joseph,cozart, Todd Fraser and heisey for greinke, soria and dejesus?

That's a trade I would do because it is a significant upgrade.

Greinke is an ace under contract for several more years.

Soria is far better than Cordero. I compared their numbers on another thread earlier in the week, and Soria won hands down.

Dejesus is like 30 or 31 years old, but hits for good average and has an outstanding OBP. If Dusty batted him second, and moved Cabrera to 7th in the order, it would be an upgrade for Votto, Rolen and Gomes to knock in more runs.

I wouldn't miss Bailey, Cozart or Frazier. I'd miss Heisey and I had high hopes for Joseph, but I did for Zach Stewart last year too, so oh well.

Hondo
07-22-2010, 08:05 PM
That's a trade I would do because it is a significant upgrade.

Greinke is an ace under contract for several more years.

Soria is far better than Cordero. I compared their numbers on another thread earlier in the week, and Soria won hands down.

Dejesus is like 30 or 31 years old, but hits for good average and has an outstanding OBP. If Dusty batted him second, and moved Cabrera to 7th in the order, it would be an upgrade for Votto, Rolen and Gomes to knock in more runs.

I wouldn't miss Bailey, Cozart or Frazier. I'd miss Heisey and I had high hopes for Joseph, but I did for Zach Stewart last year too, so oh well.

Do you think we could have a meeting with Walt to discuss this plan... ?

I am Liking this... I hope Walt would atleast kick the tires on Greinke...

Kiko
07-22-2010, 08:52 PM
The bullpen seems to have stabilized with Ondrusek, Smith and Masset throwing well. Coco is still nerve racking but he isn't going anywhere. Iggy and Springer will help. Burton is also pitching well.

The offense has me concerned. No one is really hitting, especially Rolen (when healthy), Phillips and Bruce. Both Cabrera and Gomes are good clubhouse guys and bring leadership to the club. They are going to play. Jocketty would need to bring in a major bat but I just don't see it happening. So what do they do? I don't know. Hope these guys shake their funk and start hitting. Shake up the lineup? It worked before. Start platooning some guys like Heisey/Bruce.

Hondo
07-22-2010, 08:57 PM
The bullpen seems to have stabilized with Ondrusek, Smith and Masset throwing well. Coco is still nerve racking but he isn't going anywhere. Iggy and Springer will help. Burton is also pitching well.

The offense has me concerned. No one is really hitting, especially Rolen (when healthy), Phillips and Bruce. Both Cabrera and Gomes are good clubhouse guys and bring leadership to the club. They are going to play. Jocketty would need to bring in a major bat but I just don't see it happening. So what do they do? I don't know. Hope these guys shake their funk and start hitting. Shake up the lineup? It worked before. Start platooning some guys like Heisey/Bruce.

Just so ya know... I am pulling for this Club to aquire OF Corey Hart to bring a Right Handed Power Hitter to the Lineup... When Scott Rolen is in their, this team swings an entirely different stick and I think putting Hart in Right and Moving Bruce to Center would be the Kick start down the stretch offensively this team needs... And I think Yonder Alonso could do it!

webbbj
07-23-2010, 01:17 AM
i honestly think the reds should probably just stand pat. anything less than a major impact bat or pitcher isnt gonna make this team too much better. i was all for getting Lee but once that didnt happen im starting to realize there just isnt much out there.


edit: corey hart might be the only addition that makes sense.

cinreds21
07-26-2010, 03:04 AM
A) Gomes will not be with the Reds next season
B) You can't believe Dickerson is anywhere near the talent of Heisey
C) Janish will never be a starter, Dusty hates him, Frazier is our replacement at second when they deal Phillips. I see Valaika getting moved to third to replace Rolen next season at some point.

I don't like the deal. Matty is a headache.

And Valaika to replace Rolen? He signed a three year deal, he's not going anywhere.

The Astros already have two short stops of their future, one who's up now and then they have a guy in the wings who is their short stop for years to come.

And I really like Joseph, he's nasty, we shouldn't trade him unless we absolutely have to (for like an ace or amazing player, you know?)

Hondo
07-26-2010, 03:37 AM
Not Leake

Add John Olerud and Jim Abbott to that list! Former Players

BEETTLEBUG
07-26-2010, 05:15 PM
Owings,Leclure, and DRH if need be for Jayson Werth

bgwilly31
07-26-2010, 05:50 PM
A) Gomes will not be with the Reds next season
.

Said as fact but he really has no idea. :rolleyes:

Texas Pete
07-27-2010, 11:50 PM
What about Astros closer Lindstrom for LeCure and Dorn?.....or for Dorn and Janish?
Lindstrom would be a nice addition. Would a trade like that be about fair value?

powersackers
07-28-2010, 03:28 AM
Werth and Lindstrom, give up anyone but Alonso and Joseph. Go to the WS with Stubbs in AAA.