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brm7675
07-23-2010, 05:39 PM
Shortstop: Orlando Cabrera (.230 TAv, 0.0 WARP), Reds
The well-traveled 35-year-old, who shored up the Twins' infield at the deadline last summer, is showing his age. He's having his worst season ever with the bat (.252/.293/.339 in a hitter-friendly environment) , and his normally reliable glove work has been subpar (-8 FRAA) as well. As if all of that weren't bad enough, Dusty Baker has been batting him in the first or second spot in the lineup, the latest manifestation of an ongoing problem.


Remedy (?): As Kevin Goldstein pointed out on Monday, Triple-A shortstop Zack Cozart (.252 TAv) offers plus defense and surprising power to compensate for his own shortcomings in the on-base department. If the Reds want to look beyond their own organization, the Nationals' Cristian Guzman is hitting .296/.343/.368; he's got about $3.5 million remaining on his deal. The Diamondbacks' Stephen Drew (.266 TAv, 1.3 WARP) won't be a free agent until after 2012; he makes much less than Guzman and might be worth trading an actual prospect for a multi-season upgrade. As a bonus, the Reds could take advantage of Cabrera's reputation as a mid-season savoir and flip him to a team convinced he's still got those essential veteran herbs and spices.

AintlifeGrande
07-23-2010, 06:25 PM
Yeah bring Cozart up,thats all we need is a greenhorn SS in a pennant race.OC brings more to the table than just his on field play.The problem isn't OC,the other sticks need to hold their own as well.Without veterans like Rolen and Cabrera,who knows what it takes to win,and has been there before,do you think this team would have come this far already without veteran leadership?
There's more then meets the eye than numbers on the field.Minor league numbers no way dictate how well a player does in the bigs.Now ain't the time for on the job training my friend.Guzman would be an upgrade,but he is the 2nd baseman there.Drew under contract till 2012?Why would the DBacks want to move him this year when he is a star there,and they have him next year,then I could see them moving him in his FA year.
Sorry but Baseball Prospectus does not ''hit the nail on the head'' in this article,in my opinion.

brm7675
07-23-2010, 06:28 PM
Yeah bring Cozart up,thats all we need is a greenhorn SS in a pennant race.OC brings more to the table than just his on field play.The problem isn't OC,the other sticks need to hold their own as well.Without veterans like Rolen and Cabrera,who knows what it takes to win,and has been there before,do you think this team would have come this far already without veteran leadership?
There's more then meets the eye than numbers on the field.Minor league numbers no way dictate how well a player does in the bigs.Now ain't the time for on the job training my friend.Guzman would be an upgrade,but he is the 2nd baseman there.Drew under contract till 2012?Why would the DBacks want to move him this year when he is a star there,and they have him next year,then I could see them moving him in his FA year.
Sorry but Baseball Prospectus does not ''hit the nail on the head'' in this article,in my opinion.


Your right lets keep a non hitting defensive liablity on the field because he "brings" that veteran mentality to the game. OMG what a load of crapola if i ever heard. Baseball is a simple game...You catch the ball, you hit the ball...Orlando does neither very well, but lets keep him around:thumbdown

lidspinner
07-23-2010, 06:34 PM
Yeah bring Cozart up,thats all we need is a greenhorn SS in a pennant race.OC brings more to the table than just his on field play.The problem isn't OC,the other sticks need to hold their own as well.Without veterans like Rolen and Cabrera,who knows what it takes to win,and has been there before,do you think this team would have come this far already without veteran leadership?
There's more then meets the eye than numbers on the field.Minor league numbers no way dictate how well a player does in the bigs.Now ain't the time for on the job training my friend.Guzman would be an upgrade,but he is the 2nd baseman there.Drew under contract till 2012?Why would the DBacks want to move him this year when he is a star there,and they have him next year,then I could see them moving him in his FA year.
Sorry but Baseball Prospectus does not ''hit the nail on the head'' in this article,in my opinion.



I dont buy stock in the "OC leads this team and his vet presence is needed" theory....

If OC is not leading by example....and we have proff of that, then how is OC leading this team...how is the fact that he has "been there" helping our guys? Is he telling them nightly stories about his days in a playoff race? is he sitting guys down around the hot tub talking about how he has made the postseason the last 8 years?

I just dont see how OC is helping this team....for all we know he is a cancer, we are not in that locker room or dugout to see what kind of teammate he is...but what we can see is his stats....we can watch him each and every night....and he is not leading by example......

so if he is not leading by example but is leading in other ways, then lets let OC lead the way he does, and lets allow Paul Janish to play SS..OCab can lead from the bench where he belongs....

I dont hate the guy, I just cant stand to see people act as if he is a major leader....he is no Rolen, Scott is leading by putting stats up that count. I am also not saying OC in not helpful, I am sure he helps the guys out as much as he can....but at some point you have to put up numbers or your voice is not gonna be enough.....

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-23-2010, 06:36 PM
I dont buy stock in the "OC leads this team and his vet presence is needed" theory....

If OC is not leading by example....and we have proff of that, then how is OC leading this team...how is the fact that he has "been there" helping our guys? Is he telling them nightly stories about his days in a playoff race? is he sitting guys down around the hot tub talking about how he has made the postseason the last 8 years?

I just dont see how OC is helping this team....for all we know he is a cancer, we are not in that locker room or dugout to see what kind of teammate he is...but what we can see is his stats....we can watch him each and every night....and he is not leading by example......

so if he is not leading by example but is leading in other ways, then lets let OC lead the way he does, and lets allow Paul Janish to play SS..OCab can lead from the bench where he belongs....

I dont hate the guy, I just cant stand to see people act as if he is a major leader....he is no Rolen, Scott is leading by putting stats up that count. I am also not saying OC in not helpful, I am sure he helps the guys out as much as he can....but at some point you have to put up numbers or your voice is not gonna be enough.....

Then why do all of his younger teammates call him a leader and have talked about numerous times the type of veteran leadership he brings to the locker room. Why do they keep saying that? Do you even pay attention to this team?

You arm chair GM's are a joke sometimes.

AintlifeGrande
07-23-2010, 06:43 PM
I dont buy stock in the "OC leads this team and his vet presence is needed" theory....



I did not said he leads this team all alone.Go back and read my post,cause you seem to miss the ''without veterans like Rolen and Cabrera''.

brm7675
07-23-2010, 06:44 PM
Then why do all of his younger teammates call him a leader and have talked about numerous times the type of veteran leadership he brings to the locker room. Why do they keep saying that? Do you even pay attention to this team?

You arm chair GM's are a joke sometimes.

i don't give a rats butt why they call him, what does he do on the field, that's all that matters. Veteran leadership and a $1 will get you a cup of coffee, a good hitting, good defensive SS can get us into the playoffs...

See the difference?:thumbup:

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-23-2010, 06:56 PM
You won't point out he is hitting .387 in his past 8 games either though will you? LOL! Real perfect timing for this post when he has been one of our best hitters the past 2 weeks.

Since all you want to look at is numbers put that in your pipe and smoke it. You've obviously never been part of a real sports team so you don't understand locker room chemistry and the impact it can have on a team. You don't understand the value of having experience on your team and that type of stuff doesn't show up in the box score. Go ahead say you don't give a rats butt again. You're just basically saying you don't care what our players think nor do you care about comradery. Good arm chair managing, you DA MAN!

brm7675
07-23-2010, 07:00 PM
You won't point out he is hitting .387 in his past 8 games either though will you? LOL! Real perfect timing for this post when he has been one of our best hitters the past 2 weeks.

Since all you want to look at is numbers put that in your pipe and smoke it. You've obviously never been part of a real sports team so you don't understand locker room chemistry and the impact it can have on a team. Go ahead say you don't give a rats butt again. You're just basically saying you don't care what our players think. Good arm chair managing, you DA MAN!

Well gee using your short termness send Volquez down he can't control his pitches...you have to look at the entire season.:thumbup:

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-23-2010, 07:01 PM
Nah I'm just pointing out how clueless you are in the timing of your post and you are just showing you really don't know much about this team at all. It's embarrassing. Kind of like your Cards in panic mode post. It's just sad. Stop while you're behind please. You're talking about look at the whole body and then you have a completely opposite post about the Cardinals not scoring a run in 20 innings. How inconsistent can someone be. Get out of here.

Vottomatic
07-23-2010, 07:07 PM
OCab batting second is what's a joke.

And the beat goes on with this team.......

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-23-2010, 07:15 PM
OCab batting second is what's a joke.

And the beat goes on with this team.......

Not the way he has been hitting the ball the past 2 weeks... no, no it isn't. Pay attention. God don't just complain to complain. You think Dusty and his staff doesn't know O Cab's AVG over the past 8 games??? Nothing wrong batting 2nd given his current little wave of hitting.

davereds24
07-23-2010, 07:15 PM
Nah I'm just pointing out how clueless you are in the timing of your post and you are just showing you really don't know much about this team at all. It's embarrassing. Kind of like your Cards in panic mode post. It's just sad. Stop while you're behind please. You're talking about look at the whole body and then you have a completely opposite post about the Cardinals not scoring a run in 20 innings. How inconsistent can someone be. Get out of here.

:beerme:

GIDP
07-23-2010, 07:22 PM
At some point you have to bring it to the field also. If you make everyone better and you are the worst player on the field are you really worth that much?

AintlifeGrande
07-23-2010, 08:39 PM
I got to give it to BRM7675,with his questionable,albeit comical threads.The Sun Deck ain't been this hoppin in years.Keep it up man,no matter what,you got us talkin Reds baseball.:thumbup:

Rijo's Ghost
07-23-2010, 08:58 PM
Then why do all of his younger teammates call him a leader and have talked about numerous times the type of veteran leadership he brings to the locker room. Why do they keep saying that? Do you even pay attention to this team?

You arm chair GM's are a joke sometimes.

What else can they say about him? When you never hear words like "productive" and keep hearing words like "leadership" and "veteran savvy" you know the guy is playing terribly. Do you really think that Cabrera is helping Votto knock the tar out of the ball or something and he wouldn't be able to without him?

RedsFanInBama
07-23-2010, 11:31 PM
I've given up on Cabrera not playing. My hope at this point lies with Dusty moving Bruce into the two hole, where I think he could do a ton of damage, and moving Cabrera down to about sixth or seventh.

CWRed
07-24-2010, 12:15 AM
Not the way he has been hitting the ball the past 2 weeks... no, no it isn't. Pay attention. God don't just complain to complain. You think Dusty and his staff doesn't know O Cab's AVG over the past 8 games??? Nothing wrong batting 2nd given his current little wave of hitting.

You are giving Dusty way too much credit. OCab has been hitting 1st or 2nd all freakin' year. He's had about 5 good weeks this season. He's barey hitting the ball hard at all any more. And you harp on what he's done the last 2 weeks. That has zero bearing on why he's batting 2nd. It's because Dusty is a moron and rarely sees what true value is. And he can't field!!! Start Janish every day at short. Bat him 8th. End of story. It will never happen though.

So to sum up I believe it is you who should pay attention. :nono:

GIDP
07-24-2010, 12:19 AM
I've given up on Cabrera not playing. My hope at this point lies with Dusty moving Bruce into the two hole, where I think he could do a ton of damage, and moving Cabrera down to about sixth or seventh.

Agreed. Its getting a little frustrating to watch Dusty run a sub .300 OBP and a low .600s OPS bat out there every night in the first inning. He doesnt score runs, he isnt driving them in anymore, and hes getting out at a huge rate.

Hes scored the 5th highest runs on the team, was 8th until yesterday and hes been hitting 1st or 2nd all year long. Makes me kinda sad just thinking about it.

bshall2105
07-24-2010, 12:48 AM
I just want to get this off my chest. Orlando Cabrera not playing will not send the entire team into a deep depression. Joey Votto will still be a beast. Bruce will still have a cannon. Brandon Phillips will still make spectacular plays. Our starting rotation will still be very respectable. Orlando also isn't the reason that Logan Ondrusek has been great since rejoining the team. He wasn't responsible for Jonny Gomes' shockingly great first half. People who think he has some supernatural power that makes the whole team play together are just crazy.

Roush's socks
07-24-2010, 02:38 AM
Barry Larkin was saying on TV that Cabrera was an important part of the team, and should be brought back next year. Before everyone calls him an idiot, stop for a second and remember that Larkin is not an idiot. I think there is some smoke to the fire of Cabrera's "veteran leadership."

For all of you who think that is BS. I once saw an interview with Bill James, the stats guru, where he was saying that "chemistry" IS a huge part of baseball and winning. He said that when he started working with in the Red Sox org he realized how important clubhouse vibes and having a positive motivated spirit are on a team.

realistic
07-24-2010, 02:56 AM
hes played way above average defense and his bats good enough. far from our biggest hole.

my 3 fears in order:
rolens lack of at bats
stubbs k's
coco's bs (sorry bein blunt)

4th worry for me is either cabrera or gomes...fix the rest first

GIDP
07-24-2010, 03:05 AM
hes played way above average defense and his bats good enough. far from our biggest hole.

my 3 fears in order:
rolens lack of at bats
stubbs k's
coco's bs (sorry bein blunt)

4th worry for me is either cabrera or gomes...fix the rest first

May I ask why you think his bat is "good enough"?

realistic
07-24-2010, 03:15 AM
May I ask why you think his bat is "good enough"?

sure
his range at ss is good enough to win the NL. same reason i tolerate stubbs , his range. who you want at ss? cozart too young to play ss in this race, a rookie dont play qb in the nfl playoffs. janish? cant get a good jump . he picks up up clean but is slow gettin to the ball....who you like at ss? i could be convinced otherwise maybe but id play cabrera tomorrow if i were dusty

realistic
07-24-2010, 03:16 AM
his range is good enough to make his bat tolerable i mean... i didnt come close to answering question

GIDP
07-24-2010, 03:20 AM
Personally I think his D is average at best. He makes the most of what he has left in the tank by for the most part being able to grab what he gets to but when it comes to Janish its not even comparable. Janish has the better arm, better range, and I seriously doubt that his bad would be a ton worse. If I had my choice I would play Janish on days Leake pitches and probably Arroyo since hes been throwing more grounders this year than normal. I also wouldnt bat either of them higher than 8th.

Are you just using the eyeball test to make your statement about his D?

realistic
07-24-2010, 03:36 AM
Personally I think his D is average at best. He makes the most of what he has left in the tank by for the most part being able to grab what he gets to but when it comes to Janish its not even comparable. Janish has the better arm, better range, and I seriously doubt that his bad would be a ton worse. If I had my choice I would play Janish on days Leake pitches and probably Arroyo since hes been throwing more grounders this year than normal. I also wouldnt bat either of them higher than 8th.

Are you just using the eyeball test to make your statement about his D?

yeah, watchin him its obvious he has range. dude has like 10 times the chances janish has in his career so stats dont mean a lot...i feel 100% comfortable with him at ss - in the field

realistic
07-24-2010, 03:41 AM
watch the replay of that inning the astros threatened....the slow roller to 3rd , janish was slowin breakin on it....cabrera would have had the out at first imo..but thats not he actual issue of this thread, but its my main problem with the reds atm - 3b. if rolen cant play 80% of games from here out we will need a 3b/power hitter or we will get left behind. cabrera is NOT the weakest link imho

Vottomatic
07-24-2010, 03:47 AM
Not the way he has been hitting the ball the past 2 weeks... no, no it isn't. Pay attention. God don't just complain to complain. You think Dusty and his staff doesn't know O Cab's AVG over the past 8 games??? Nothing wrong batting 2nd given his current little wave of hitting.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

OCab bats in the 2-hole no matter what pretty much all season long despite his .298 OBP. You can't be serious in saying it's because he's hot lately?

Other 2-hole hitters around the league:

Cardinals today batted John Jay second and his .441 OBP in 42 games.
Cubs today batted Starlin Castro second and his .352 OBP in 66 games.
Twins today batted Orlando Hudson second and his .356 OBP in 80 games.
Rockies today batted Jon Herrera second and his .353 OBP in 40 games.
Phillies today batted Placido Polanco second and his .347 OBP in 69 games.
Blue Jays today batted Yunel Escobar second and his .334 OBP in 75 games for the Braves before being traded.
Tigers today batted Johnny Damon second and his .374 OBP in 86 games.
Padres today batted Chris Denorfia second and his .345 OBP in 45 games.
Rays today batted Carl Crawford second and his .370 OBP in 91 games.
Indians today batted Asdrubel Cabrera second and his .327 OBP in 36 games, although he has a career .351 OBP in 3.5 seasons.
Royals today batted Jason Kendall second and his .339 OBP in 90 games.
Yankees today batted Derek Jeter second and his .334 OBP in 93 games, although he has a career .386 OBP.
Braves today batted Jason Heyward second and his .376 OBP in 76 games.
Marlins today batted Gaby Sanchez second and his .368 OBP in 91 games.
Rangers today batted Michael Young second and his .357 OBP in 96 games.

Pirates and Orioles ran out guys with sub-par OBP in the 2-hole. No wonder they suck. Angels had a guy batting second with an OBP around .315, not so good.

Brewers have Corey Hart batting second (.349 OBP).

Dusty brilliantly puts Orlando Cabrera batting second every day and his .298 OBP.

BRILLIANT!

As I've been saying........the Reds wins despite Dusty.

GIDP
07-24-2010, 10:30 AM
watch the replay of that inning the astros threatened....the slow roller to 3rd , janish was slowin breakin on it....cabrera would have had the out at first imo..but thats not he actual issue of this thread, but its my main problem with the reds atm - 3b. if rolen cant play 80% of games from here out we will need a 3b/power hitter or we will get left behind. cabrera is NOT the weakest link imho

Janish didnt play SS last night though. I think there is no chance we come to any type of agreement on Ocab though.

lidspinner
07-24-2010, 12:45 PM
Then why do all of his younger teammates call him a leader and have talked about numerous times the type of veteran leadership he brings to the locker room. Why do they keep saying that? Do you even pay attention to this team?

You arm chair GM's are a joke sometimes.


look pal...we are all Reds fans here....what do you want? everyone to hold hands and agree on every topic? armchair GM's, if thats all your gonna bring to the table, then go sit at the kids table and come back when your done eating your veggies.....I have seen that fluff said more times than I have read "fire Dusty"...if you wanna slam me, fine, I can take it....but at least bring some orginality to the debate.....

so lets continue this debate....your saying as long as OC does a good job being a leader, and I want to see some quotes, I am not just going to take your word for it....but if he is being a good leader, your ok with him letting grounders go up the middle and in the 5-6 hole? your ok with his slash? and if you are, at what point do you say to many leaders that dont produce are a bad thing.....if you had 9 guys who are great leaders but put up slashs like OCabs, then you are in last place.

again, bring me some links to where more than just 1 player is calling him a leader. and to argue that, what are they suppose to say when asked about OC? "uh, no sir, Orlando is like old jumk at a yard sale, we got him cheap, and we are trying to find a use for him but at some point we have to throw him in our own garage sale"....heck no they are not going to say anything bad about him....he is a vet...vets on every team get the leader comment thrown at them.....

I am just not buying the fact that we are a better team with OC out there....or a worse team if we traded OC for a better SS with better range and better slash numbers...

lidspinner
07-24-2010, 12:49 PM
I dont buy stock in the "OC leads this team and his vet presence is needed" theory....



I did not said he leads this team all alone.Go back and read my post,cause you seem to miss the ''without veterans like Rolen and Cabrera''.


you are correct...I apologize for jumping the gun....but now that I posted it and had replies to my post, I must defend it....lol. I just dont see how we think OC is great just because he leads......at some point in leading you have to put up or shut up. OC is doing more shutting up than putting up.....and I am not saying he is horrible, all I am saying is a better SS makes us a better team.

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 01:32 PM
you are correct...I apologize for jumping the gun....but now that I posted it and had replies to my post, I must defend it....lol. I just dont see how we think OC is great just because he leads......at some point in leading you have to put up or shut up. OC is doing more shutting up than putting up.....and I am not saying he is horrible, all I am saying is a better SS makes us a better team.

You going to call me out for not bringing anything to the table really when I pointed out OC has been batting .387 in his last 8 games. Now he is batting .400 in his last 9 games after last night's game. I also pointed out this post is ill timed because of his current little wave.

No one used great and OC in the same sentence, and no one said being a leader made him great. Being a leader makes him an asset to this ball club. Very rarely do you have a bunch of kids on a major league team and make noise. Every ball club needs to be sprinkled with experienced veterans that have playoff race, and playoff experience. It isn't something you can put a number value on or even try to explain.

To brush it off though as meaning nothing shows a lack of sports knowledge and understanding of the game in general. Carry on.

lidspinner
07-24-2010, 03:07 PM
so you throw his stats from the last 8-9 games and use it as the gospel to keep him? Heck, at one 10 game stretch this year Jay Bruce was batting almost .500....

OC is not a leader....he may lead a few of the younger guys by vocal leadership but he is not leading by example and that is what we need if we want to win ball games...to act as if we cannot get rid of OC is silly...

just an example....say you bring in Stephen Drew from Zona....he will bring a TON better defense....he will also bring a better average....better OPB and better slugging...more walks, more triples, more Total bases....and did I mention better defense?

That was just an example I used cause Drew is somewhat available....but there is also the Paul Janish experiment....I am not going to throw stats out there cause of Pauls small sample size but Paul is ripping it up and plays the best defense of anyone on our team. He gets to balls that OC looks at. Paul is a bonafide SS while OC is a washed up SS who at best belongs on 2nd base.

RedsFanInBama
07-24-2010, 03:18 PM
OC is not a leader.

The players on the Cincinnati Reds would disagree with that statement. His leadership is continually mentioned by other players on the team.

GIDP
07-24-2010, 03:20 PM
Like I said earlier in this thread or maybe another one, at what point does someone playing so bad outweigh any type of positives he brings to other players? There is little doubt that Ocab is one of the worst starting SS in the NL. Alcides escobar is probably the only one who has less value. Has his presence in the line up every day but 8 days this year improved everyone to the point where you can justify playing him so much? I have a really hard time believing something like that.

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 03:22 PM
What I'm pointing out is the OP couldn't have picked a worse time to start such a thread when OC is the hottest bat in the lineup right now. Believe what you want to believe, I'm just gong to let you "spinn" your wheels from here on out. I don't listen to people who want to play a true game of baseball like it's MLB the Show on PS3.

Paul Janish is the "future" in a sense being 27 yet you speak about picking up a SS like Drew where we would have to give up numerous prospects just to get him. Get out of your video game fantasy land and join us in the real world. There is no reason to give up a handful of prospects to upgrade at a position that isn't a need on any level.

If you want to give up prospects do it going after a RP to shore up the bullpen, not for a SS, especially when the upgrade wouldn't be large if any upgrade was achieved at all. That would be bad GMing at its finest. I just laugh at some of you that throw a proven winner like OC under the bus. He's been on winning teams 5 of the past 6 seasons. He has a WS ring. He knows what it takes to get the job done. This is the kind of experience that you can't put a price on and is something that should be welcomed, considering we haven't been exactly stacking up the wins in upteen years.

RedsFanInBama
07-24-2010, 03:24 PM
Like I said earlier in this thread or maybe another one, at what point does someone playing so bad outweigh any type of positives he brings to other players? Has his presence in the line up every day but 8 days this year improved everyone to the point where you can justify playing him so much? I have a really hard time believing something like that.
Those are hard questions to answer because team chemistry is a very real thing, but is obviously next to impossible to put a value on.

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 03:27 PM
Like I said earlier in this thread or maybe another one, at what point does someone playing so bad outweigh any type of positives he brings to other players? There is little doubt that Ocab is one of the worst starting SS in the NL. Alcides escobar is probably the only one who has less value. Has his presence in the line up every day but 8 days this year improved everyone to the point where you can justify playing him so much? I have a really hard time believing something like that.

One of the worst in the NL???

5th in Runs, 2nd in Hits, 6th in RBI, 4th in SB, 5th BA

His OBP is only the real killer (yet he still posts the above numbers), but to say he is one of the worst SS in the NL is a ridiculous statement on all levels.

Rolen: "He clearly sees this quartet, with free-agent Cabrera bringing an edge with his toughness and vocal leadership."

Phillips: "O.C. has helped me a lot, learning the game a little better, how to catch the ball, position myself, things like that. He's been around."

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 03:34 PM
"If you show up at the park every day for just personal numbers, it really gets annoying," Cabrera said. "If I see something, guys getting off track or focused on things not important, yeah, I will say something to them. I like to play hard. I like to play smart. I like to show that at any given moment, you can beat any team."

"He's a leader that doesn't mind leading," manager Dusty Baker said. "A lot of leaders are people who are pushed into leadership. He's vocal. He believes he's a winner and he believes he can help us win. He believes where he goes, winning follows."

"One thing that I see in here is guys come here and they show up to the park to play," Cabrera said. "I think the difference is you need to show up to compete and you show up to win the ballgame. You really shouldn't care about average, how many hits or how many home runs you get. If you get the 'W,' everybody did something that day which will show up."

Like I said sometimes numbers aren't the only thing people should look at. Leadership roles do exist. Rolen is more of a leader by example, Cabrera is a leader by voice. Both are key pieces in the team's success this year and for some people wanting to screw with that chemistry and overall success is just shocking to me.

lidspinner
07-24-2010, 03:42 PM
The players on the Cincinnati Reds would disagree with that statement. His leadership is continually mentioned by other players on the team.


I dont buy this for one second...first off, they are not going to say anything bad about a vet...especially one who has been to the playoffs as often as OC....and were they asked about him? or did they just come out and say OC is a leader? and as GIDP stated, at what point does leadership have to be given in the form of stats? you cant always lead from doing nothing at the plate or in defense..just saying

Griffey012
07-24-2010, 03:43 PM
so lets continue this debate....your saying as long as OC does a good job being a leader, and I want to see some quotes, I am not just going to take your word for it....but if he is being a good leader, your ok with him letting grounders go up the middle and in the 5-6 hole? your ok with his slash? and if you are, at what point do you say to many leaders that dont produce are a bad thing.....if you had 9 guys who are great leaders but put up slashs like OCabs, then you are in last place.

again, bring me some links to where more than just 1 player is calling him a leader. and to argue that, what are they suppose to say when asked about OC? "uh, no sir, Orlando is like old jumk at a yard sale, we got him cheap, and we are trying to find a use for him but at some point we have to throw him in our own garage sale"....heck no they are not going to say anything bad about him....he is a vet...vets on every team get the leader comment thrown at them.....

It's funny you ask for quotes about OCab being a leader, then follow up in another post by saying he is not a leader without any evidence to back it up.

We don't have 9 guys with OC's slash line so that is not an issue. The key is to get a combination of personalities, abilities, slash lines, etc that mesh into a good ballclub, currently we have a good ballclub and a good mesh of personalities.

I have never heard Griffey or Dunn referred to as a leader and they were veterans. I have never heard of CoCo, Harang, Ramon, or Arroyo referred to as a leader (Arroyo is a leader for Leake, but I have not heard about him being a team leader). But I have heard plenty about Rolen, OC, and Cairo being leaders.

I ask you to name 1 team who has won the world series without guys who were known to be "veteran leaders." We have to have "glue" guys like OC, Rolen, and Cairo around who have been there before and can help lead the young guys through the ups and downs of a pennant chase. OC finds himself in a pennant chase every season, there is no better guy we could have on our team to help our team from a mental standpoint through the pennant chase.

Would I love to have a guy like Stephen Drew as our SS, of course...but I fear what the ripple effect of taking OC out of the lineup would do to the rest of the team. And to say OC is not leading by example is a mistake, he leads by example in his daily focus and preparation for games, he leads by example in staying level headed through the ups and the downs of the season, he leads by example of being ready to play 162 games a year no matter the circumstances. Sure, his slash line isn't what I expected, nor what it should be, but I can't foresee making a big change to the daily lineup out of fear of the negative consequences that may result.

lidspinner
07-24-2010, 03:48 PM
It's funny you ask for quotes about OCab being a leader, then follow up in another post by saying he is not a leader without any evidence to back it up.

We don't have 9 guys with OC's slash line so that is not an issue. The key is to get a combination of personalities, abilities, slash lines, etc that mesh into a good ballclub, currently we have a good ballclub and a good mesh of personalities.

I have never heard Griffey or Dunn referred to as a leader and they were veterans. I have never heard of CoCo, Harang, Ramon, or Arroyo referred to as a leader (Arroyo is a leader for Leake, but I have not heard about him being a team leader). But I have heard plenty about Rolen, OC, and Cairo being leaders.

I ask you to name 1 team who has won the world series without guys who were known to be "veteran leaders." We have to have "glue" guys like OC, Rolen, and Cairo around who have been there before and can help lead the young guys through the ups and downs of a pennant chase. OC finds himself in a pennant chase every season, there is no better guy we could have on our team to help our team from a mental standpoint through the pennant chase.

Would I love to have a guy like Stephen Drew as our SS, of course...but I fear what the ripple effect of taking OC out of the lineup would do to the rest of the team. And to say OC is not leading by example is a mistake, he leads by example in his daily focus and preparation for games, he leads by example in staying level headed through the ups and the downs of the season, he leads by example of being ready to play 162 games a year no matter the circumstances. Sure, his slash line isn't what I expected, nor what it should be, but I can't foresee making a big change to the daily lineup out of fear of the negative consequences that may result.


so you want me to go pull up his stats this year? if that is not proof of no leadership I dont know what is...sure he can be a vocal leader all day...but at some point this team is going to start losing faith in their leader if he cant get it dont on the diamond.

So you are saying this team would be worse off with Paul Janish at SS putting up solid numbers like he has so far? Honest question

GIDP
07-24-2010, 03:52 PM
One of the worst in the NL???

5th in Runs, 2nd in Hits, 6th in RBI, 4th in SB, 5th BA

His OBP is only the real killer (yet he still posts the above numbers), but to say he is one of the worst SS in the NL is a ridiculous statement on all levels.

Rolen: "He clearly sees this quartet, with free-agent Cabrera bringing an edge with his toughness and vocal leadership."

Phillips: "O.C. has helped me a lot, learning the game a little better, how to catch the ball, position myself, things like that. He's been around."

You are comparing a position to where the guy bats though. Comparing those stats when guys who hit worse than him normally hit 7th or 8th is flawed.

His OPS is 3rd worst among SS who have had more than 300 PA. The only 2 worse are Escobar and Theroit, and Theroit doesnt play SS every day anymore.

He until 2 days ago scored the 8th most runs on the Reds, thats behind every other starter on the team other than the catchers. He has since passed Gomes by 2 and Rolen by 1. Both of those guys have no where near the same amount of PA, 60 and 90 less respectfully.

I dont doubt he brings some type of value that isnt expressed in numbers but I'm asking is it so much that him being basically the 2nd worst every day SS in the NL and starting every one of those games but 8.

lidspinner
07-24-2010, 03:54 PM
What I'm pointing out is the OP couldn't have picked a worse time to start such a thread when OC is the hottest bat in the lineup right now. Believe what you want to believe, I'm just gong to let you "spinn" your wheels from here on out. I don't listen to people who want to play a true game of baseball like it's MLB the Show on PS3.

Paul Janish is the "future" in a sense being 27 yet you speak about picking up a SS like Drew where we would have to give up numerous prospects just to get him. Get out of your video game fantasy land and join us in the real world. There is no reason to give up a handful of prospects to upgrade at a position that isn't a need on any level.

If you want to give up prospects do it going after a RP to shore up the bullpen, not for a SS, especially when the upgrade wouldn't be large if any upgrade was achieved at all. That would be bad GMing at its finest. I just laugh at some of you that throw a proven winner like OC under the bus. He's been on winning teams 5 of the past 6 seasons. He has a WS ring. He knows what it takes to get the job done. This is the kind of experience that you can't put a price on and is something that should be welcomed, considering we haven't been exactly stacking up the wins in upteen years.



I am not saying we need to go get Drew....I would love to have him true, but I was just using his slash numbers as an example to you.....Would I rather Paul Janish out there? HELL YES I would....Paul is going to put OC numbers up on a bad day and he is going to outplay him of defense by a large margin...so by my standards that would make our team better....

I am all for OC playing if he can get his avg up to .280....I can live his mediocre defense but we simply cannot afford him to bat under .250 which is where he was tottering at.....I just used Drew and Paul as an example....

I have a hard time thinking that MLB players would play worse just because OC is not out there playing SS....if he is such a leader then let him lead from the pine....let Paul play the defense.

Look, we cannot fault OC for his batting 2nd...that is on Dusty, but we can fault OC for everything else....he is aging, it happens. Why in the world our fans would want him to keep going out there night after night is beyond me.

lidspinner
07-24-2010, 04:01 PM
It's funny you ask for quotes about OCab being a leader, then follow up in another post by saying he is not a leader without any evidence to back it up.

We don't have 9 guys with OC's slash line so that is not an issue. The key is to get a combination of personalities, abilities, slash lines, etc that mesh into a good ballclub, currently we have a good ballclub and a good mesh of personalities.

I have never heard Griffey or Dunn referred to as a leader and they were veterans. I have never heard of CoCo, Harang, Ramon, or Arroyo referred to as a leader (Arroyo is a leader for Leake, but I have not heard about him being a team leader). But I have heard plenty about Rolen, OC, and Cairo being leaders.

I ask you to name 1 team who has won the world series without guys who were known to be "veteran leaders." We have to have "glue" guys like OC, Rolen, and Cairo around who have been there before and can help lead the young guys through the ups and downs of a pennant chase. OC finds himself in a pennant chase every season, there is no better guy we could have on our team to help our team from a mental standpoint through the pennant chase.

Would I love to have a guy like Stephen Drew as our SS, of course...but I fear what the ripple effect of taking OC out of the lineup would do to the rest of the team. And to say OC is not leading by example is a mistake, he leads by example in his daily focus and preparation for games, he leads by example in staying level headed through the ups and the downs of the season, he leads by example of being ready to play 162 games a year no matter the circumstances. Sure, his slash line isn't what I expected, nor what it should be, but I can't foresee making a big change to the daily lineup out of fear of the negative consequences that may result.


I will try to find one....but I ask you, who do you want roaming SS for us if I told you that Paul Janish would bat .290/.370/.450/.800?
Mind you Paul brings no leadership at all....while OC is going to put the numbers up that he is putting up right now but be a leader to the guys....who would you prefer?

OC is in his 1st year with us, its not like we are talking about Barry Larkin here. please answer honestly.

you throw OC's name in there with Rolen and Cairo....yet Rolen and Cairo seem to put up numbers....they produce. They do what leaders are supposed to do...

Vottomatic
07-24-2010, 04:02 PM
"If you show up at the park every day for just personal numbers, it really gets annoying," Cabrera said. "If I see something, guys getting off track or focused on things not important, yeah, I will say something to them. I like to play hard. I like to play smart. I like to show that at any given moment, you can beat any team."

"He's a leader that doesn't mind leading," manager Dusty Baker said. "A lot of leaders are people who are pushed into leadership. He's vocal. He believes he's a winner and he believes he can help us win. He believes where he goes, winning follows."

"One thing that I see in here is guys come here and they show up to the park to play," Cabrera said. "I think the difference is you need to show up to compete and you show up to win the ballgame. You really shouldn't care about average, how many hits or how many home runs you get. If you get the 'W,' everybody did something that day which will show up."

Like I said sometimes numbers aren't the only thing people should look at. Leadership roles do exist. Rolen is more of a leader by example, Cabrera is a leader by voice. Both are key pieces in the team's success this year and for some people wanting to screw with that chemistry and overall success is just shocking to me.

Just because you're a so-called leader doesn't mean you have to bat second. :rolleyes:

This argument continues to go beyond stupid.

The guy is on the decline. It's obvious. I see better than I read or hear.

Janish should be in for defensive purposes to finish every game unless it's tied, although I don't think you miss a beat with Janish's bat.

.298 OBP

Enough said. You don't bat a guy second with a crappy OBP. That's just a pathetic managerial move. He can be a leader from the 7th or 8th spot in the batting order. I could care less if he's hitting .400 in his last 9 games. He's batting .257 for the season. Again, enough said. :rolleyes:

FlyerFanatic
07-24-2010, 04:03 PM
Just because you're a so-called leader doesn't mean you have to bat second. :rolleyes:

This argument continues to go beyond stupid.

The guy is on the decline. It's obvious. I see better than I read or hear.

Janish should be in for defensive purposes to finish every game unless it's tied, although I don't think you miss a beat with Janish's bat.

.298 OBP

Enough said. You don't bat a guy second with a crappy OBP. That's just a pathetic managerial move. He can lead from the 7th or 8th spot in the batting order. I could care less if he's hitting .400 in his last 9 games. He's batting .257 for the season. Again, enough said. :rolleyes:

you're forgetting dusty scoffs at OBP...

Vottomatic
07-24-2010, 04:04 PM
you're forgetting dusty scoffs at OBP...

Hence, that's why he's a bad manager.

Griffey012
07-24-2010, 04:06 PM
so you want me to go pull up his stats this year? if that is not proof of no leadership I dont know what is...sure he can be a vocal leader all day...but at some point this team is going to start losing faith in their leader if he cant get it dont on the diamond.

So you are saying this team would be worse off with Paul Janish at SS putting up solid numbers like he has so far? Honest question

Stats are in no way any inclination of a guy being a "leader" and a guy not being a "leader". Miguel Cabrera put up huge numbers last season and he was in no way to being close to being a leader, as shown by his manager having the pick him up from the drunk tank in the playoffs. The team will not start losing faith in him as a leader until he loses confidence in himself and the team, and until he quits playing hard. MLB players understand player go through ups and downs, get older and lose ability, but they also know OC is playing as hard as he can and trying to do everything in his power to help the team win. The players don't sit on fangraphs analyzing slash lines, OPS, UZR, WAR, and all those things. But even through the offensive struggles, OC has seemed to put up when the game is on the line.

I am not saying the team would be worse of with Paul Janish at SS, I am actually a strong advocate of OC and Janish having about a 75/25 playing time split. I do not believe that Janish will put up the solid offensive numbers like he has thus far, probably more like an OPS similar to OC's. I honestly don't believe trading for a SS like Drew or making Janish the full-time starter will make this club a better team this season.

texasdave
07-24-2010, 04:09 PM
Name Team Bat Field Replace Pos. RAR WAR Dollars
Rafael Furcal Dodgers 18.1 4.8 10.2 2.9 36.0 3.7 $14.80
Troy Tulowitzki Rockies 10.6 3.2 8.8 2.8 25.4 2.6 $10.40
Hanley Ramirez Marlins 13.3 -6.1 13.4 4.1 24.8 2.5 $10.20
Stephen Drew Dbacks -0.3 3.2 12.1 3.7 18.7 1.9 $7.70
Jose Reyes Mets 1.5 -0.4 12.4 3.7 17.3 1.8 $7.10
Juan Uribe Giants 0.5 1.1 11.7 2.7 16.0 1.6 $6.60
Starlin Castro Cubs 0.4 2.6 8.5 3.0 14.6 1.5 $6.00
Jerry Hairston Padres -4.8 5.3 11.6 2.5 14.5 1.5 $5.90
Yunel Escobar Braves -7.7 4.4 10.0 3.3 10.0 1.0 $4.10
Felipe Lopez Cards 1.8 -2.7 9.1 1.4 9.6 1.0 $3.90
Ronny Cedeno Pirates -9.3 3.5 9.7 3.4 7.3 0.7 $3.00
Clint Barmes Rockies -7.3 0.6 10.7 2.3 6.3 0.7 $2.60
Ian Desmond Nats -7.8 -0.5 10.6 3.5 5.9 0.6 $2.40
Orlando Cabrera Reds -13.8 1.8 13.7 4.1 5.9 0.6 $2.40
Alcides Escobar Brewers -10.9 0.1 11.5 3.7 4.3 0.4 $1.80
Ryan Theriot Cubs -14.3 -2.0 13.0 2.1 -1.2 -0.1 ($0.50)
Brendan Ryan Cards -16.9 3.0 8.9 3.2 -1.9 -0.2 ($0.80)


Here is how Fangraphs, a neutral observer in this discussion, rates the value of National League SS. It's easier to find Orlando Cabrera if you start at the bottom and go up.

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 04:10 PM
Hence, that's why he's a bad manager.

So is our All Star 2nd baseman a bad 2nd baseman??? He has quoted that he thinks OBP is an overrated statistic. Bad 2nd baseman???

Griffey012
07-24-2010, 04:10 PM
I will try to find one....but I ask you, who do you want roaming SS for us if I told you that Paul Janish would bat .290/.370/.450/.800?
Mind you Paul brings no leadership at all....while OC is going to put the numbers up that he is putting up right now but be a leader to the guys....who would you prefer?

OC is in his 1st year with us, its not like we are talking about Barry Larkin here. please answer honestly.

you throw OC's name in there with Rolen and Cairo....yet Rolen and Cairo seem to put up numbers....they produce. They do what leaders are supposed to do...

Janish, that's a no brainer. But that is one giant IF, to expect him to put up that kind of line. That is nearly Hanley Ramirez's identical slash line.

GIDP
07-24-2010, 04:14 PM
Janish, that's a no brainer. But that is one giant IF, to expect him to put up that kind of line. That is nearly Hanley Ramirez's identical slash line.

I dont think anyone rational expects Janish to hit what his slash line currently says, but he would also have to go 0-30 almost to have it drop to Ocabs slash line.

lidspinner
07-24-2010, 04:16 PM
Janish, that's a no brainer. But that is one giant IF, to expect him to put up that kind of line. That is nearly Hanley Ramirez's identical slash line.


I agree that Paul more than likely does not put up those numbers....but I also can agree that OC more than likely does not put up numbers like his career avg, they will be lower.....If OC is such a great leader, why can he not lead from the bench? or form the 8th spot in the lineup.....no way does his leadership mean more to this team than a capable SS putting up SS numbers and playing SS defense. I just dont see how OC has any fans whatsoever....Paul Janish has done nothing but produce when given the chance and he plays lights out on D. Yet some of us fans still want the "leader" to be out there hurting this team in teh boxscore.

texasdave
07-24-2010, 04:16 PM
Name Bat Field Replace Pos RAR WAR Dollars
O. Cabrera -13.8 1.8 13.7 4.1 5.9 0.6 $2.40
Paul Janish 1.6 0.2 2.3 0.6 4.6 0.5 $1.90

According to Fangraphs, Paul Janish has brought almost equal value to the team so far in about 1/5 of the playing time - 378PA to 58PA.

lidspinner
07-24-2010, 04:17 PM
I dont think anyone rational expects Janish to hit what his slash line currently says, but he would also have to go 0-30 almost to have it drop to Ocabs slash line.

0-30??? wow. Janish might not get 30 more at bats this season. but OC is a leader

FlyerFanatic
07-24-2010, 04:18 PM
0-30??? wow. Janish might not get 30 more at bats this season. but OC is a leader

lol :D

texasdave
07-24-2010, 04:21 PM
You cherry pick a hot 9-game hitting streak by Cabrera but what about the month-and-a-half Taveras-like cold streak that immediately preceded it?

Cabrera's slash in that timeframe prior to the ASB: .218/.259/.298/.551. There is no amount of leadership in the world that makes up for sub-Taverasarian numbers like that. And no excuse for a manager to keep putting him at or near the top of the lineup when he is contributing nothing at all with his stick. He can lead just as well from the 8-spot or the bench.

Griffey012
07-24-2010, 04:22 PM
I agree that Paul more than likely does not put up those numbers....but I also can agree that OC more than likely does not put up numbers like his career avg, they will be lower.....If OC is such a great leader, why can he not lead from the bench? or form the 8th spot in the lineup.....no way does his leadership mean more to this team than a capable SS putting up SS numbers and playing SS defense. I just dont see how OC has any fans whatsoever....Paul Janish has done nothing but produce when given the chance and he plays lights out on D. Yet some of us fans still want the "leader" to be out there hurting this team in teh boxscore.

I am not an advocate of OC in the 2 spot, thats a different discussion. And he should be able to lead from the bench like Cairo does, but he won't be happy on the bench, because he still believes he is an everyday player, and is going to want to play everyday to help seal up a contract with a team for next season. And that will likely effect his leadership and also the way the players view him.

He may be hurting the team in the box score number wise, but overall he is helping the team win.

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 04:25 PM
I'd be fine not hitting Cabrera #2 if a guy would step up and lay claim to the #2 spot. Currently I don't see a consistent option we can bat at #2 anywhere on the roster. Sure Phillips but then who leads off???

Our real problem is not having a true lead off guy in the lineup.

GIDP
07-24-2010, 04:26 PM
Now that I said 0-30 I better make sure its actually correct.

I did the math its actually 0-21. That would drop Janish OPS to .632 compared to OCabs .637

His OBP would still be higher though by 5 points.

arkimadee
07-24-2010, 04:46 PM
it could be worse.. we could be throwing brandon larson in there everyday!!! lol

Brisco
07-24-2010, 05:26 PM
On leadership....

I have never been a professional athlete, but my full time job is to train combat leaders, I think the same principles apply in sports. That said...

I am sure we all are aware of OCab's speech on the bus after he made the crucial error in the season's first meltdown loss. He did nto hide or brood, instead he stood up and did a huge mea culpa.

I spent some time in the Reds clubhouse in the Griffey era... I was there after three losses. NOONE stood up like that... In a game Dunn k'd repeatedly with runners in scoring position, he went and sat by himself by his locker and brooded. When Griffey did well, he was bouyant, even if the team had lost... when he did poorly, he talked to noone but his kids. After a bad game Kearns would go to the computer and study his swings over and over... but he did not talk to anyone else. I watched them... 25 individuals... never a team.

Oddly enough, only one player showed any type of leadership when I was there, and that was Ryan Dempster, but even he would go to his own little world after a bad pitching performance.

I have not been to the Reds clubhouse is six years, but if OCab did what is claimed to have happened in the bus afterwards and stood up and siad he is gonna screw up one or two times a year, but that changes nothing... I saw it is a crucial reason the Reds have done so well since that game.

These players are young... it is so tempting to get caught up in your own head after a screw up, but when a LEADER leads by example, as OCab did, it allows them to recover quicker and get back to doing well.

For years I have watched talented players put up some gaudy stats and yet we have continued to lose. I have longed for a leader to come in and convert a bunch of individuals into a team. They finally are.

I don't know anything about who should bat in which position or OPS or anything... but this is NOT fantasy baseball. Statistics are conclusive evidence of the past NOT the future.

To sum up in a single line, it is my opinion that if Hanley rameriz or some other non leader high performing SS had been on the roster instead of OCab from day one, the Reds would not have as good a record as they currently have.

Vottomatic
07-24-2010, 05:42 PM
So is our All Star 2nd baseman a bad 2nd baseman??? He has quoted that he thinks OBP is an overrated statistic. Bad 2nd baseman???

He's not managing the ballclub.

Nice try in trying to change the subject though. :rolleyes:

Vottomatic
07-24-2010, 05:47 PM
You cherry pick a hot 9-game hitting streak by Cabrera but what about the month-and-a-half Taveras-like cold streak that immediately preceded it?

Cabrera's slash in that timeframe prior to the ASB: .218/.259/.298/.551. There is no amount of leadership in the world that makes up for sub-Taverasarian numbers like that. And no excuse for a manager to keep putting him at or near the top of the lineup when he is contributing nothing at all with his stick. He can lead just as well from the 8-spot or the bench.

You're falling on deaf ears. Might as well save your breathe.

lidspinner
07-24-2010, 07:12 PM
On leadership....

I have never been a professional athlete, but my full time job is to train combat leaders, I think the same principles apply in sports. That said...

I am sure we all are aware of OCab's speech on the bus after he made the crucial error in the season's first meltdown loss. He did nto hide or brood, instead he stood up and did a huge mea culpa.

I spent some time in the Reds clubhouse in the Griffey era... I was there after three losses. NOONE stood up like that... In a game Dunn k'd repeatedly with runners in scoring position, he went and sat by himself by his locker and brooded. When Griffey did well, he was bouyant, even if the team had lost... when he did poorly, he talked to noone but his kids. After a bad game Kearns would go to the computer and study his swings over and over... but he did not talk to anyone else. I watched them... 25 individuals... never a team.

Oddly enough, only one player showed any type of leadership when I was there, and that was Ryan Dempster, but even he would go to his own little world after a bad pitching performance.

I have not been to the Reds clubhouse is six years, but if OCab did what is claimed to have happened in the bus afterwards and stood up and siad he is gonna screw up one or two times a year, but that changes nothing... I saw it is a crucial reason the Reds have done so well since that game.

These players are young... it is so tempting to get caught up in your own head after a screw up, but when a LEADER leads by example, as OCab did, it allows them to recover quicker and get back to doing well.

For years I have watched talented players put up some gaudy stats and yet we have continued to lose. I have longed for a leader to come in and convert a bunch of individuals into a team. They finally are.

I don't know anything about who should bat in which position or OPS or anything... but this is NOT fantasy baseball. Statistics are conclusive evidence of the past NOT the future.

To sum up in a single line, it is my opinion that if Hanley rameriz or some other non leader high performing SS had been on the roster instead of OCab from day one, the Reds would not have as good a record as they currently have.


first and foremost...I salute you for training our men and women to be leaders..that is a thankless job at times, so I am saying thank you....secondly, your silly if you think HanleyR would make this team worse...Thats all.

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 07:20 PM
Another hit for my boy OC

realistic
07-24-2010, 07:24 PM
Brantley tellin it like it is

Griffey012
07-24-2010, 07:26 PM
Brantley tellin it like it is

What did Brantley say? I missed the top of the 1st thinking it was an 8 o clock start.

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 07:27 PM
Yea I'd like to know as well

realistic
07-24-2010, 07:32 PM
braggin on Cabrera after he just made a good play on a groundball deep to his right. talkin about how hes been "better than advertised" and that hes a leader for the team.

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 07:45 PM
2 for 2 OC

wvu-red-fan
07-24-2010, 08:28 PM
first and foremost...I salute you for training our men and women to be leaders..that is a thankless job at times, so I am saying thank you....secondly, your silly if you think HanleyR would make this team worse...Thats all.

His point was that OCab manning up on the bus was worth more than better stats. If you do not realize what good leadership does in any walk in life, it is useless to argue with you.

There is a huge line is this thread where there are people that understand the need for leadership/relationships in any job and those that think it is all about stats.

It has already been said, but, this game is not played on computer, and it is not a fantasy league.

If you are really paying attention to this team, and think Ocab not being there wouldn't hurt, then you are the silly one.

That said, they need to get him out of the 2 hole ASAP.

Vottomatic
07-24-2010, 08:28 PM
2 for 2 OC

Where were you when he was in a huge slump for a month and a half?

Oh yeah. No where to be found. :rolleyes:

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 08:36 PM
Where were you when he was in a huge slump for a month and a half?

Oh yeah. No where to be found. :rolleyes:

I didn't even register until this week bro.

3 hits tonight, yum!

Hondo
07-24-2010, 08:46 PM
I didn't even register until this week bro.

3 hits tonight, yum!

Yeah but he just hit into a Double Play with a 6 run lead. He should be burned at the stake.

;)

Vottomatic
07-24-2010, 09:33 PM
I didn't even register until this week bro.

3 hits tonight, yum!

Fairweather fan, eh? :D

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 09:35 PM
Fairweather fan, eh? :D

Reds fan and fairweather? Is that even possible? ;)

Vottomatic
07-24-2010, 09:37 PM
I noticed there alot of newbies on here lately. Winning brings out the fans.

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 09:39 PM
I noticed there alot of newbies on here lately. Winning brings out the fans.

HAHAHA! I guess you were here the day this site was created. Bow down to your greatness.

Hondo
07-24-2010, 09:45 PM
HAHAHA! I guess you were here the day this site was created. Bow down to your greatness.

Dude. He has been here 10 more months than you! Know your PLACE!

Just kidding...

:cool:

Vottomatic
07-24-2010, 09:48 PM
Dude. He has been here 10 more months than you! Know your PLACE!

Just kidding...

:cool:

I was here long before that.

New name when Votto became my favorite player. :thumbup:

Hondo
07-24-2010, 09:54 PM
I was here long before that.

New name when Votto became my favorite player. :thumbup:

Votto is my new favorite player too... Seriously... After his "Hate Cubs Uniform" rant...

Larry Bird was my favorite Basketball player too...

Love the Intensity...

Don't want to see the High Fives and ass patting between benchs after games...

Vottomatic
07-24-2010, 10:12 PM
Votto is my new favorite player too... Seriously... After his "Hate Cubs Uniform" rant...

Larry Bird was my favorite Basketball player too...

Love the Intensity...

Don't want to see the High Fives and ass patting between benchs after games...

HBO had a great documentary on the connection between Bird and Magic. Did you happen to see that? It was very good. :thumbup:

redsfanmia
07-24-2010, 10:14 PM
Votto is my new favorite player too... Seriously... After his "Hate Cubs Uniform" rant...

Larry Bird was my favorite Basketball player too...

Love the Intensity...

Don't want to see the High Fives and ass patting between benchs after games...

Larry was a great player and a decent coach but he is awful as a GM.

RedsFanInBama
07-24-2010, 10:32 PM
and were they asked about him? or did they just come out and say OC is a leader?
Both. I have seen plenty of occasions where he was mentioned by a teammate without being prompted. I don't care if you "buy it" or not.

CWRed
07-25-2010, 01:04 PM
According to Fangraphs, Paul Janish has brought almost equal value to the team so far in about 1/5 of the playing time - 378PA to 58PA.

And the thread should have stopped there. :D

RedsFanInBama
07-25-2010, 01:15 PM
One thing to consider. Cabrera batting 2nd:

.308/.342/.414

So if we're going to judge him as our #2 hitter, maybe we should look at his production hitting second. He sucked early in the year, period. But as a #2 hitter, he's done nothing to draw the number of complaints that he has (including from me). I wasn't aware of how much better he's been.

Griffey012
07-25-2010, 02:25 PM
One thing to consider. Cabrera batting 2nd:

.308/.342/.414

So if we're going to judge him as our #2 hitter, maybe we should look at his production hitting second. He sucked early in the year, period. But as a #2 hitter, he's done nothing to draw the number of complaints that he has (including from me). I wasn't aware of how much better he's been.

:thumbup: Nice post, I actually had no idea he was putting up those numbers in the 2 spot. And I have done a fair share of not being to thrilled about OCab in the 2 hole.

Kingspoint
07-25-2010, 10:05 PM
Dusty Baker's solution to fix an aging Left-side of the infield (2 35-year olds in Rolen....bad back, as we all expected him to miss at least 25 games this year because of his aches and pains, and Cabrera, who just plain sucks because he's old, but won't leave the lineup) is to put a 39-year old in Rolen's place and continue to play Cabrera.

I just pray that Dusty is not here next year.

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-26-2010, 02:57 AM
Dusty Baker's solution to fix an aging Left-side of the infield (2 35-year olds in Rolen....bad back, as we all expected him to miss at least 25 games this year because of his aches and pains, and Cabrera, who just plain sucks because he's old, but won't leave the lineup) is to put a 39-year old in Rolen's place and continue to play Cabrera.

I just pray that Dusty is not here next year.

Then no manager worth a squat is going to want to come here, so if you get your wish be prepared for an even worse Reds team than you have seen in the past 3 years.

Kingspoint
07-26-2010, 03:17 AM
Then no manager worth a squat is going to want to come here, so if you get your wish be prepared for an even worse Reds team than you have seen in the past 3 years.


That's not physically possible with the abundance of talent the REDS have, just like it was not physically possible for them not to improve this year.

Any bonehead could manage this team to a winning record.

A great Manager like Rick Sweet could take them to the World Series.

Hondo
07-26-2010, 03:32 AM
That's not physically possible with the abundance of talent the REDS have, just like it was not physically possible for them not to improve this year.

Any bonehead could manage this team to a winning record.

A great Manager like Rick Sweet could take them to the World Series.

Are you being Serious?

lidspinner
07-26-2010, 09:28 AM
Dusty is doing a decent job...not contract extenntion good, but decent....lets see where this team goes these next few months and what boneheaded moves Dusty makes, or what good moves he makes....I am in the camp that thinks a good manager could have this team another 5 wins easy.......The think I like about Dusty is the fact that his players like him....and sometimes that is really hard to do....and when your players like you, they will play a little harder for you.

Kingspoint
07-26-2010, 02:57 PM
Are you being Serious?

Couldn't be more serious. It's a joke to think otherwise.

Maybe if you had 20 more years of experience, you might have the insight to see that Rick Sweet is a great Manager right now.

You'll never have enough experience to see that anyone could do what Dusty has done this year if you can't see it right now.

If you can't recognize how much talent the REDS have right now compared to last year, then just leave analysis to others.

Kingspoint
07-26-2010, 03:01 PM
Dusty is doing a decent job...not contract extenntion good, but decent....lets see where this team goes these next few months and what boneheaded moves Dusty makes, or what good moves he makes....I am in the camp that thinks a good manager could have this team another 5 wins easy.......The think I like about Dusty is the fact that his players like him....and sometimes that is really hard to do....and when your players like you, they will play a little harder for you.

See how simple that is Hondo?

Now, that's an accurate assessment.

Brisco
07-26-2010, 03:31 PM
Couldn't be more serious. It's a joke to think otherwise.

Maybe if you had 20 more years of experience, you might have the insight to see that Rick Sweet is a great Manager right now.

You'll never have enough experience to see that anyone could do what Dusty has done this year if you can't see it right now.

If you can't recognize how much talent the REDS have right now compared to last year, then just leave analysis to others.

Wow... I assume there is some history here, but this has to be one of the most arrogant posts I have seen on Redszone in a decade.

Kingspoint
07-26-2010, 03:56 PM
Wow... I assume there is some history here, but this has to be one of the most arrogant posts I have seen on Redszone in a decade.

Thank you. It's not arrogance when you're right.

It gets old trying to tell some people the obvious.

Vottomatic
07-26-2010, 05:49 PM
Then no manager worth a squat is going to want to come here, so if you get your wish be prepared for an even worse Reds team than you have seen in the past 3 years.

Comical. Every available manager in mlb would be lining up for the Reds job with their talent.

That's just a ridiculous statement.

Vottomatic
07-26-2010, 05:51 PM
Dusty is doing a decent job...not contract extenntion good, but decent....lets see where this team goes these next few months and what boneheaded moves Dusty makes, or what good moves he makes....I am in the camp that thinks a good manager could have this team another 5 wins easy.......The think I like about Dusty is the fact that his players like him....and sometimes that is really hard to do....and when your players like you, they will play a little harder for you.

Pretty much how I feel.

I like Dusty. I don't like his managerial tactical moves.
I do think he does help meld team chemistry though.

But I agree with you that I think this team could have about 5 more wins right now with a better tactical manager.

Griffey012
07-26-2010, 06:03 PM
That's not physically possible with the abundance of talent the REDS have, just like it was not physically possible for them not to improve this year.

Any bonehead could manage this team to a winning record.

A great Manager like Rick Sweet could take them to the World Series.

Why don't we wait and see if Sir Dusty takes this team to the world series.

About Rick Sweet...what makes him so special? He is 58 years old an has never had a major league managing job. Due to all of your "experience" I must ask what you see that no other MLB team see's in this guy.

Rick Sweet is probably a great MLB manager like Brandon Larson was a great MLB third baseman.

Kingspoint
07-26-2010, 06:05 PM
Why don't we wait and see if Sir Dusty takes this team to the world series.

About Rick Sweet...what makes him so special? He is 58 years old an has never had a major league managing job. Due to all of your "experience" I must ask what you see that no other MLB team see's in this guy.

Rick Sweet is probably a great MLB manager like Brandon Larson was a great MLB third baseman.

I've watched Rick Sweet for many a year, and he's the real deal. When he gets his chance, he'll do well.

The "good-old-boy" network has always recycled the same old Managers. Most good candidates never get a chance. The same is true in the NFL and the NBA. The same is true in the Fortune 100 CEO world, too.

Griffey012
07-26-2010, 06:51 PM
I've watched Rick Sweet for many a year, and he's the real deal. When he gets his chance, he'll do well.

The "good-old-boy" network has always recycled the same old Managers. Most good candidates never get a chance. The same is true in the NFL and the NBA. The same is true in the Fortune 100 CEO world, too.

That was true 10-15 years ago, but many teams across the MLB and NFL are looking from the outside for coaches. Currently there are quite a few MLB managers still in their first managing stint.

John Russell - Pirates
Brad Mills - Astros
Edwin Rodriguez - Marlins (replacement)
Kirk Gibson - D-Backs (replacement)
Bud Black - Padres
Ron Washington - Texas
Wakamatsu - Seattle
Bob Geren - A's
Ron Gardenhire - Twins
Mike Scioscia - Angels
Ozzie Guillen - White Sox
Juan Samuel - Orioles (replacement)

And pretty much all other current managers have been successful with their teams, or have had a successful track record. Sweet has been in and around baseball long enough, had minor league jobs, mlb coaching jobs... I have to feel if he had what it takes to be a great MLB manager he would have a job by now.

Kingspoint
07-26-2010, 06:53 PM
That was true 10-15 years ago, but many teams across the MLB and NFL are looking from the outside for coaches. Currently there are quite a few MLB managers still in their first managing stint.

John Russell - Pirates
Brad Mills - Astros
Edwin Rodriguez - Marlins (replacement)
Kirk Gibson - D-Backs (replacement)
Bud Black - Padres
Ron Washington - Texas
Wakamatsu - Seattle
Bob Geren - A's
Ron Gardenhire - Twins
Mike Scioscia - Angels
Ozzie Guillen - White Sox
Juan Samuel - Orioles (replacement)

And pretty much all other current managers have been successful with their teams, or have had a successful track record. Sweet has been in and around baseball long enough, had minor league jobs, mlb coaching jobs... I have to feel if he had what it takes to be a great MLB manager he would have a job by now.

Good post. But, the fact that someone has never had a chance is never a logical argument for saying it's likely they don't have what it takes. Under that scenario, Ozzie Guillen, Mike Scioscia, and all of the other Managers you have listed should never have received a chance, either.

Griffey012
07-26-2010, 09:47 PM
Good post. But, the fact that someone has never had a chance is never a logical argument for saying it's likely they don't have what it takes. Under that scenario, Ozzie Guillen, Mike Scioscia, and all of the other Managers you have listed should never have received a chance, either.

I guess to clarify my point a bit more, I am wanting to know what it is about Sweet that makes you think he will be a great manager. What is it about his personality, character, player interaction, in game management, etc? With Guillen they liked his fire, with Scioscia he had a calm and confident demeanor and knows a ton about baseball. I have been to 1 bats game in my life and pretty much drooled over Jay Bruce the whole time, so I really know nothing about Sweet.