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ian_madden
07-24-2010, 04:55 AM
I know that many of you are calling for the end of the world with this team:
not being in 1st place,
Bronson getting smacked around by the Nationals (Bad),
Volquez pitching under expectations on Thursday (really bad),
Our line up that day (unbelievably bad),
Wood giving up 4 runs tonight (he is human after all),
and Cairo starting at 3rd base for an extended period of time.
And of course St. Louis being the "Front runner" for Oswald.

But I really believe that if this Reds team can play .500 ball without Scott Rolen we will be OK. If anyone really thinks otherwise please tell me otherwise. We have a stretch against the Astros and the Brewers. If we can simply split this road trip, and Rolen not spend any extended period of time not playing I think we will be OK.

If you think that I am wrong please tell me otherwise.

Hondo
07-24-2010, 05:35 AM
I know that many of you are calling for the end of the world with this team:
not being in 1st place,
Bronson getting smacked around by the Nationals (Bad),
Volquez pitching under expectations on Thursday (really bad),
Our line up that day (unbelievably bad),
Wood giving up 4 runs tonight (he is human after all),
and Cairo starting at 3rd base for an extended period of time.
And of course St. Louis being the "Front runner" for Oswald.

But I really believe that if this Reds team can play .500 ball without Scott Rolen we will be OK. If anyone really thinks otherwise please tell me otherwise. We have a stretch against the Astros and the Brewers. If we can simply split this road trip, and Rolen not spend any extended period of time not playing I think we will be OK.

If you think that I am wrong please tell me otherwise.

Deffinate trouble if we dont Add a Right Handed Power Bat...

Would Love to Get an ACE Pitcher.

Greinke is available...

Magdal
07-24-2010, 07:24 AM
Rolen is like a bonus player...when he is fit he helps the team. But the Reds will still win w/out him. Take away his stats and the Reds would STILL be the best hitting and running team in the NL.

TheBigLebowski
07-24-2010, 08:30 AM
Rolen is like a bonus player...when he is fit he helps the team. But the Reds will still win w/out him. Take away his stats and the Reds would STILL be the best hitting and running team in the NL.

It sounds cliche to say this, but Rolen does things you don't see in the boxscore.

Magdal
07-24-2010, 09:06 AM
It sounds cliche to say this, but Rolen does things you don't see in the boxscore.We all know that, Lebowski...his D is the best, his base running is super, his clutch hitting and power are way above average.

But his body is weak. To be such a big hulk he is a bit fragile.

Razzle
07-24-2010, 09:19 AM
We all know that, Lebowski...his D is the best, his base running is super, his clutch hitting and power are way above average.

But his body is weak. To be such a big hulk he is a bit fragile. He is paying the price for all the 'roids he did between 2003 and 2006. They all are.

Scotty has never been suspected, nor am I sure why you would suspect him. He's an injury prone player because he's a max effort guy and has thrown his body around a major league diamond for 15 years. Steroids are possible, but I wouldn't say probable in Scotty's case.

JordanCincyFan
07-24-2010, 09:38 AM
without Rolen we lose a great bat to have in the lineup, without Rolen we lose a alltime great defensive 3rd baseman, without Rolen we lose leadership, without Rolen we lose offense! i do believe we can play well without him, but we would be a whole lot better with him!

TheBigLebowski
07-24-2010, 09:54 AM
We all know that, Lebowski...his D is the best, his base running is super, his clutch hitting and power are way above average.

But his body is weak. To be such a big hulk he is a bit fragile. He is paying the price for all the 'roids he did between 2003 and 2006. They all are.

You're accusing him of doing roids...wow. One of the worst posts I've ever read.

ian_madden
07-24-2010, 01:16 PM
Without Scott Rolen, there is a lot of pressure on unproven players like Gomes, Hannigan, Bruce, and Stubbs. With Rolen in the lineup, they couldn't pitch around Votto, now I pitch around him and make Gomes beat me. I pitch to Bruce for sure, who will bat in the 5th spot a lot more. Without Rolen we are an average team with holes.

Gut check time.

ian_madden
07-24-2010, 01:19 PM
Deffinate trouble if we dont Add a Right Handed Power Bat...

Would Love to Get an ACE Pitcher.

Greinke is available...

I don't think we need to trade away young talent for a rental player. I think we should stand pat and play through, unless Rolen is down for an extended period of time.

I like our young rotation next year. I don't think we need an Ace, I think he is here, just hasn't matured yet.

ian_madden
07-24-2010, 01:25 PM
I never heard of Rolen included in the steriods mess either, but I wouldn't put it past him, he is very competitive. Steroids weren't just taken by the big, bad guys of the league, they were taken by anyone who wanted to be the best at their position. Ultra competitive guys who wanted to keep up with the curve. Doing steroids did not make you a bad person, it made you an opportunists.

RedsFanInBama
07-24-2010, 01:44 PM
Steroids ... were taken by anyone who wanted to be the best at their position.

You really think that? I know it was widespread, but I don't think that assessment is accurate.

ian_madden
07-24-2010, 01:52 PM
I do. Brett Boone, Aaron Boone are 2 players that I read that tested positive for steroids. One that broke my heart was Hal Morris. In his final stint with the reds he tested positive in an attempt to be competitive again. Once again, I don't think it made them bad people, just needed to keep up with everyone else.

RedsFanInBama
07-24-2010, 01:54 PM
So what percentage would you put on it? 90%? I think most guys at the big league level have the desire to be the best.

Magdal
07-24-2010, 03:34 PM
You're accusing him of doing roids...wow. One of the worst posts I've ever read.You are a bit naive to think that a Tony LaRussa player is above using when the guy is passing out the needles in the locker room. The list of A's and Cards caught 'roiding is huge, and NOT just the slammers like McGuire and Edmonds...pip squeeks like Aaron Miles, Fernando Vina
and the ultimate mini-hulk Tatis. He did what he had to do to stay competitive.

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-24-2010, 03:40 PM
To assume Rolen did roids with no real evidence is very lame. The whole everyone is doing it bit doesn't work. There was a steroids era but there were still people out there who had a choice and chose not to do them based on principle alone. Not everyone in the MLB was on steroids during that era. That's the worst part about playing in the steroids era, the guys who didn't cheat always have to deal with the fact they'll probably be accused one time or another because they played in that time.

Just don't assume one of our own actually did roids though like that, not cool.

Girevik
07-24-2010, 04:38 PM
Greinke is available...

Where did you see this? The only thing I've ever seen about Greinke going somewhere is fan speculation because KC will be "sellers". While he's one guy I'd put together a package of prospects for, I'd be shocked if KC would trade away their one star while he's still cheap and I have yet to hear a report from a baseball guy that he could be had.

gedred69
07-24-2010, 04:50 PM
Without Scott Rolen, there is a lot of pressure on unproven players like Gomes, Hannigan, Bruce, and Stubbs. With Rolen in the lineup, they couldn't pitch around Votto, now I pitch around him and make Gomes beat me. I pitch to Bruce for sure, who will bat in the 5th spot a lot more. Without Rolen we are an average team with holes.

Gut check time.

Accurate post. Without Rolen this team is just, +.500 When he is in the line-up everybody gets pitched to differently, and they all hit much better. Too bad Phillips has to un-naturally hit 1st, when what I believe are the "Big Three" batted 2 through 4, (Phillips-Votto-Rolen) they racked up the runs, stats, and consequently, wins. That order nearly made a star out of Gomes.

sabometrics
07-24-2010, 05:11 PM
Where did you see this? The only thing I've ever seen about Greinke going somewhere is fan speculation because KC will be "sellers". While he's one guy I'd put together a package of prospects for, I'd be shocked if KC would trade away their one star while he's still cheap and I have yet to hear a report from a baseball guy that he could be had.

There was a report that said the Royals will listen to offers for just about anyone iirc, but that hardly means he's available in the same way Haren or Oswalt are right now.

Hondo
07-24-2010, 09:06 PM
Where did you see this? The only thing I've ever seen about Greinke going somewhere is fan speculation because KC will be "sellers". While he's one guy I'd put together a package of prospects for, I'd be shocked if KC would trade away their one star while he's still cheap and I have yet to hear a report from a baseball guy that he could be had.

It was on ESPN Insider on the Trade Rumors section...

Also, KC wants loose of paying Jose Guillen...

While I despise Jose Guillen...

WHat if the Reds took on Guillen and the Rest of his Salary to get Greinke while giving up Wood, Alonso, Joseph, and some other prospects...

KC wants to trade Guillen, is looking to improve at Multiple Positions by trading Greinke, The Reds have a chance at Post Season and Greinke is young, under contract and the type of pitcher to build around, and the Reds could use a Right Handed Power Hitter... Plus Jose Guillen is in Walk Year, and the team could get picks when he signs elsewhere...

Plus he is going to try and hit very good for a new contract...

Dang Good ideas...

ian_madden
07-24-2010, 11:36 PM
So what percentage would you put on it? 90%? I think most guys at the big league level have the desire to be the best.

90% is very high. I can't give a percentage because you have those natural talents that never did steroids, or ever needed to, ie. Griffey. But I do believe that it was much higher than the 1% that MLb tried to say was doing steroids. Then you have the players that were just happy to be there, ie. the Pittsburgh Pirates. Look at those teams, no one is accusing any of those guys of doing steroids because there is no pressure to perform there. These are the types of players that are "just happy to be there, and making a paycheck."

ian_madden
07-24-2010, 11:40 PM
It was on ESPN Insider on the Trade Rumors section...

Also, KC wants loose of paying Jose Guillen...

While I despise Jose Guillen...

WHat if the Reds took on Guillen and the Rest of his Salary to get Greinke while giving up Wood, Alonso, Joseph, and some other prospects...

KC wants to trade Guillen, is looking to improve at Multiple Positions by trading Greinke, The Reds have a chance at Post Season and Greinke is young, under contract and the type of pitcher to build around, and the Reds could use a Right Handed Power Hitter... Plus Jose Guillen is in Walk Year, and the team could get picks when he signs elsewhere...

Plus he is going to try and hit very good for a new contract...

Dang Good ideas...

I don't want Guillen, even if it is just for 1 year. Greinke is a Freak, if we have to give up Alonso, Francisco, and 1 of our good young pitchers, not named Wood, Leake, or Chapman so be it.

Razzle
07-24-2010, 11:43 PM
90% is very high. I can't give a percentage because you have those natural talents that never did steroids, or ever needed to, ie. Griffey. But I do believe that it was much higher than the 1% that MLb tried to say was doing steroids. Then you have the players that were just happy to be there, ie. the Pittsburgh Pirates. Look at those teams, no one is accusing any of those guys of doing steroids because there is no pressure to perform there. These are the types of players that are "just happy to be there, and making a paycheck."

Of course they are happy to be there, but they also want to STAY there. Tons of stars did roids, but the guys that I'd be willing to bet had a higher rate of roid usage would be the fringe major leaguers. Those guy's I'd imagine took them to try and keep their jobs/standards of living. Guys like Randy Valarde, Marvin Benard, etc that you don't hear as much about because they aren't big enough names to shock you. Just my opinion on the matter. All that said, I want to believe Scotty didn't do roids and I honestly think he never did. I wouldn't be completely shocked, but definitely disheartened to see a guy that embodies what baseball should be get outted.

benchpress
07-25-2010, 11:27 AM
I don't think we need to trade away young talent for a rental player. I think we should stand pat and play through, unless Rolen is down for an extended period of time.

I like our young rotation next year. I don't think we need an Ace, I think he is here, just hasn't matured yet.

Agreed!

RedsLvr
07-25-2010, 11:58 AM
We've managed a 5-3 record thus far in his absence.

1990REDS
07-25-2010, 12:01 PM
Of course they are happy to be there, but they also want to STAY there. Tons of stars did roids, but the guys that I'd be willing to bet had a higher rate of roid usage would be the fringe major leaguers. Those guy's I'd imagine took them to try and keep their jobs/standards of living. Guys like Randy Valarde, Marvin Benard, etc that you don't hear as much about because they aren't big enough names to shock you. Just my opinion on the matter. All that said, I want to believe Scotty didn't do roids and I honestly think he never did. I wouldn't be completely shocked, but definitely disheartened to see a guy that embodies what baseball should be get outted.

you forgot to add gary matthews jr. to that list. he turned 1 good season into about 50 million dollars.

ian_madden
07-25-2010, 12:47 PM
Going into the All Star Break, many were considering Votto a league MVP candidate. But I didn't think he was the MVP on this team. If Votto can put this team on his back, can carry them in Rolen's absence, make the playoffs, I'm not sure you can argue, against Votto as the league MVP.

Orodle
07-25-2010, 02:57 PM
If hes says hes ready tomorrow, give him another day of rest and start him day after tomorrow :)

lidspinner
07-25-2010, 04:26 PM
I don't want Guillen, even if it is just for 1 year. Greinke is a Freak, if we have to give up Alonso, Francisco, and 1 of our good young pitchers, not named Wood, Leake, or Chapman so be it.


I would give up Yonder, Bailey, and Francisco....or maybe swap Bailey and Wood....we are going to have to give up someone with talent to get Zack, we are not going to be able to trade Maloney for ZG....just not happening unless Votto is included. ZG is one of the best young pitchers in the game, in order to get him, we are going to have to part with someone of equal value.