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Ron Madden
07-25-2010, 07:24 PM
Per MLB Network,

Danny Haren traded to Angels for Joe Saunders and three minor league prospects.

Joseph
07-25-2010, 07:33 PM
At least its not the Cards.

Brutus
07-25-2010, 07:42 PM
I love the Angels, so I love this deal. However, I have to ask the Diamondbacks what the heck they were doing with this. I'll wait for confirmation of the three prospects, but if they got out of this without Mike Trout or Hank Conger or any number of their top tier guys, they failed miserably in trading Haren.

Ron Madden
07-25-2010, 07:44 PM
I love the Angels, so I love this deal. However, I have to ask the Diamondbacks what the heck they were doing with this. I'll wait for confirmation of the three prospects, but if they got out of this without Mike Trout or Hank Conger or any number of their top tier guys, they failed miserably in trading Haren.

All I heard was Arizona gets Saunders two minor league pitchers and a minor league player to be named later.

Brutus
07-25-2010, 07:45 PM
Angels deal for Haren (http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/news/story?id=5409169)

Reportedly, it's for Saunders, Patrick Corbin, Rafael Rodriguez and a PTBNL...

WVRed
07-25-2010, 07:46 PM
All I heard was Arizona gets Saunders to minor league pitchers and a minor league player to be named later.

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/mlb/news/story?id=5409169


The Los Angeles Angels acquired Dan Haren from the Arizona Diamondbacks for pitcher Joe Saunders, two minor league pitchers, left hander Patrick Corbin and right hander Rafael Rodriguez, and a player to be named.

Haren is 7-8 with a 4.60 ERA this season. He has struck out 141 and walked 29 in 141 innings this season.

Entering Sunday, the Angels are six games back of the AL West-leading Texas Rangers.

YouTube - 10 minutes of the Price is Right losing horn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U43Ate3Itjs)

redsmetz
07-25-2010, 07:47 PM
I'm guessing the PTBNL is someone from last year's draft, although that's not a given.

PuffyPig
07-25-2010, 07:48 PM
[QUOTE=Brutus the Pimp;2173143] I'll wait for confirmation of the three prospects.....QUOTE]

How could you even begin to assess the trade until you know who the prospects are?

Brutus
07-25-2010, 07:49 PM
[QUOTE=Brutus the Pimp;2173143] I'll wait for confirmation of the three prospects.....QUOTE]

How could you even begin to assess the trade until you know who the prospects are?

I was assessing the report of it being Corbin and Rodriguez with a PTBNL, though I should have mentioned that originally.

RedsManRick
07-25-2010, 07:54 PM
Those better be some darn good prospects, Saunders is a 4th/5th starter type in a good year...

PuffyPig
07-25-2010, 07:55 PM
[QUOTE=PuffyPig;2173150]

I was assessing the report of it being Corbin and Rodriguez with a PTBNL, though I should have mentioned that originally.

I apologize for interpreting "I'll wait for confirmation of the three prospects" as meaning you didn't know who they were.......

edabbs44
07-25-2010, 07:55 PM
From MLBTR


The player to be named later is a top prospect, a source tells Nick Piecoro of the Arizona Republic (via Twitter). They will choose the PTBNL from a short list, tweets Jon Heyman of SI, but it won't include 2009 first-round selection Mike Trout, according to Jeff Passan of Yahoo (via Twitter). A D'Backs official says that the PTBNL is "outstanding", tweets Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports.

nemesis
07-25-2010, 08:17 PM
Well, there is really no SP available to the Reds that is really that much of an upgrade over current in house options.

PuffyPig
07-25-2010, 08:27 PM
Well, there is really no SP available to the Reds that is really that much of an upgrade over current in house options.

Depends on what you think of Oswalt.

Huge risk, was poor in the 2nd half last year too.

nemesis
07-25-2010, 08:32 PM
Depends on what you think of Oswalt.

Huge risk, was poor in the 2nd half last year too.

Oswalt's contract and demands to have his 2012 option picked up, before you even know he is going to make it through 2011 healthy damn near makes him untradible to more than a handful of teams and the Reds are not one of those teams. A hurt Oswalt in 2011 or 2012 would handicap this roster beyond belief going forward. No way I would ever take that gamble.

PuffyPig
07-25-2010, 08:38 PM
Oswalt's contract and demands to have his 2012 option picked up, before you even know he is going to make it through 2011 healthy damn near makes him untradible to more than a handful of teams and the Reds are not one of those teams. A hurt Oswalt in 2011 or 2012 would handicap this roster beyond belief going forward. No way I would ever take that gamble.

I completely agree.

RedLegSuperStar
07-25-2010, 09:07 PM
Strike me where I stand but I hope the Yankees get Oswalt.. and I hate the Yankees

reds44
07-25-2010, 09:08 PM
I hope anybody but the Cardinals get him.

mth123
07-25-2010, 09:12 PM
I still hope the Reds get him.

PuffyPig
07-25-2010, 09:14 PM
I hope anybody but the Cardinals get him.

Part of me hopes they get him and pay through the nose to do so.

But I agree with you.

Brutus
07-25-2010, 09:20 PM
Oswalt's contract and demands to have his 2012 option picked up, before you even know he is going to make it through 2011 healthy damn near makes him untradible to more than a handful of teams and the Reds are not one of those teams. A hurt Oswalt in 2011 or 2012 would handicap this roster beyond belief going forward. No way I would ever take that gamble.

I'm concerned by the long-term health of Oswalt, so I'm not necessarily gung-ho about the Reds acquiring him. But the demands of having the 2012 option has become non-sequitur in the discussion of whether or not to trade for him. Reportedly, so many teams were balking at the prerequisite that Oswalt has accepted he may not get traded under that pretense.

edabbs44
07-25-2010, 09:45 PM
Supposedly the PTBNL is Tyler Skaggs, 40th pick overall in the 2009 draft.

REDblooded
07-25-2010, 10:00 PM
Can't believe they got that deal without having to give up Bourjos or Conger at the least...

Kinda sickening tbh... Reds definitely could have put together a package... Even though I'm not the hugest Haren fan... Not sure his ever increasing fb% would play well in GABP...



If the DBacks are in a trading mood however... I'd be MORE than happy to hand them Cozart and Alonso for Drew...

camisadelgolf
07-25-2010, 10:06 PM
The Angels really must not like Rafael Rodriguez. I've heard him rumored to be in three separate trades over the past week.

PuffyPig
07-25-2010, 11:05 PM
The Angels really must like Rafael Rodriguez. I've heard him rumored to be in three separate trades over the past week.

Every rumoured Reds deal has Wood and Alonso included.

Just sayin'.

camisadelgolf
07-25-2010, 11:18 PM
Every rumoured Reds deal has Wood and Alonso included.

Just sayin'.
Good point. But from here on out, I think pretty much every trade rumor involving the Reds trading for an above-average veteran will involve parting with Yonder Alonso. He's possibly the most obvious trading chip in baseball.

fearofpopvol1
07-26-2010, 12:24 AM
How in the world could the Reds have not EASILY topped this deal? I just don't understand why the Reds didn't make a better play unless it's money. This deal looks to be whack for the DBacks.

JaxRed
07-26-2010, 01:16 AM
How about the fact that the Reds don't need Haren?

fearofpopvol1
07-26-2010, 02:18 AM
How about the fact that the Reds don't need Haren?

They need an upgrade to the rotation. Haren would have provided that.

TheNext44
07-26-2010, 05:46 AM
The only way I can explain this from the D'Back's side is that there is something wrong with Haren that scouts have discovered, most likely something that is the reason behind his recent jump in HR/9. Other teams knew about this, and just weren't willing to offer that much for him. I am not saying this is the case, but that it is the only logical explanation that I can find for why they got so little for him, when they didn't need to trade him.

Still, I personally am higher on Joe Saunders than most. He has the stuff to be a #2-3 starter, but for some reason, has pitched more like a #4-5 starter lately. He really should be getting more strikeouts, and giving up less home runs, but he hasn't for the past season and a half. I think that there's a chance he can put it together in Arizona, in an easier league. But I still wouldn't trade Haren for him, based on that chance.

mth123
07-26-2010, 07:31 AM
The only way I can explain this from the D'Back's side is that there is something wrong with Haren that scouts have discovered, most likely something that is the reason behind his recent jump in HR/9. Other teams knew about this, and just weren't willing to offer that much for him. I am not saying this is the case, but that it is the only logical explanation that I can find for why they got so little for him, when they didn't need to trade him.

Still, I personally am higher on Joe Saunders than most. He has the stuff to be a #2-3 starter, but for some reason, has pitched more like a #4-5 starter lately. He really should be getting more strikeouts, and giving up less home runs, but he hasn't for the past season and a half. I think that there's a chance he can put it together in Arizona, in an easier league. But I still wouldn't trade Haren for him, based on that chance.


I don't think you need to look so deeply. Haren isn't cheap anymore after 2010. He jumps to $12.75 Million in 2011 and the same in 2012. He has a $15.5 Million option in 2013 with a $3.5 Million buy-out. Assuming the buy-out and spreading it over 2011 and 2012, he's roughly a $15 Million per year guy the next two years. With an ERA in the high 4's and scads of homers, the D-Backs are lucky that they didn't have to add players to get some one to take him. On paper, Haren looks a lot like Aaron Harang last year at this time (or two years ago). Haren and Harang even sound alike. I think the D-backs did pretty well to get Saunders, who will hold a spot in the rotation and provide similar production to what Haren provided in 2010 at an over $10 Million savings (and a prospect like Skaggs to boot) while exiting the deal when the bargain came to an end.

jojo
07-26-2010, 08:16 AM
It looks like the Dbacks like lefties that you can dream on. Saunders kind of eats innings for them so thats why he's part of the deal.

TheNext44
07-26-2010, 10:08 AM
I don't think you need to look so deeply. Haren isn't cheap anymore after 2010. He jumps to $12.75 Million in 2011 and the same in 2012. He has a $15.5 Million option in 2013 with a $3.5 Million buy-out. Assuming the buy-out and spreading it over 2011 and 2012, he's roughly a $15 Million per year guy the next two years. With an ERA in the high 4's and scads of homers, the D-Backs are lucky that they didn't have to add players to get some one to take him. On paper, Haren looks a lot like Aaron Harang last year at this time (or two years ago). Haren and Harang even sound alike. I think the D-backs did pretty well to get Saunders, who will hold a spot in the rotation and provide similar production to what Haren provided in 2010 at an over $10 Million savings (and a prospect like Skaggs to boot) while exiting the deal when the bargain came to an end.

That makes a little more sense about the money, and the part about them thinking he on the decline.

The one big question I have for the D'Backs is, "Are you trying to win next year or trying to rebuild?" This trade kinda helps them a little either way, but not fully either way. Kinda hard to figure out their overall plan.

_Sir_Charles_
07-26-2010, 10:10 AM
They need an upgrade to the rotation. Haren would have provided that.

I'm not so sure about that. He's either leading the league in HR's allowed or right near the top, he's also allowed the most hits in the NL (maybe both leagues, not sure). Now transfer that to GABP. I just don't think he's a good fit...especially for that kind of money.

nate
07-26-2010, 10:11 AM
How about the fact that the Reds don't need Haren?

That's not a fact.

nate
07-26-2010, 10:12 AM
I'm not so sure about that. He's either leading the league in HR's allowed or right near the top, he's also allowed the most hits in the NL (maybe both leagues, not sure). Now transfer that to GABP. I just don't think he's a good fit...especially for that kind of money.

If he's so bad, why were so many teams after him?

_Sir_Charles_
07-26-2010, 10:13 AM
If he's so bad, why were so many teams after him?

I'm not saying he's bad. I'm saying he's pitched bad this season. And those flyball tendancies wouldn't play so bad in a different ballpark than GABP. He's simply a poor fit for the Reds IMO.

nate
07-26-2010, 10:34 AM
I'm not saying he's bad. I'm saying he's pitched bad this season. And those flyball tendancies wouldn't play so bad in a different ballpark than GABP. He's simply a poor fit for the Reds IMO.

He would've immediately upgraded a rotation in desperate need of upgrading. His K/9 and BB/9 would be the best amongst Reds starters with 90 IP. The HR/9 is bad for him but it's also not something he's come close to in his career. I'd guess it could be fixed. It's not like Arizona exactly suppresses the HR either.

We'd better hope the Cardinals don't get Roy Oswalt and the Reds do something to make their pitching better; it's the weakest part of the team.

fearofpopvol1
07-26-2010, 02:40 PM
I'm not saying he's bad. I'm saying he's pitched bad this season. And those flyball tendancies wouldn't play so bad in a different ballpark than GABP. He's simply a poor fit for the Reds IMO.

The Reds have more road games left than home games, include the west coast trip. Yes, he's pitched below expectations this year, but the past would suggest this is an anomaly and not the norm. Even with the down production, he's still been 2.5 WAR up until now. It's pretty likely he'll be over 4 WAR by the end of the year. That's an upgrade to our rotation.

oregonred
07-26-2010, 02:59 PM
It is very odd that three franchises have given up on Haren. Great point on the large number of WC games remaining in 2010. Haren would have looked nice on the Calif and Az/Col trips. Also his salary would slot well for 2011 (Arroyo) and 2012 (CoCo).

Walt may have viewed Arroyo in 2011 and Haren as a wash. I believe Arroyo is so underappreciated here on RZ and his option should be picked up for next season, but I'd still take Haren two ways to Sunday for 2011.

TheNext44
07-26-2010, 03:08 PM
The Reds have more road games left than home games, include the west coast trip. Yes, he's pitched below expectations this year, but the past would suggest this is an anomaly and not the norm. Even with the down production, he's still been 2.5 WAR up until now. It's pretty likely he'll be over 4 WAR by the end of the year. That's an upgrade to our rotation.

I think that's the rub. Statistically speaking, the odds are higher that it is an anomaly. But it's far from a sure thing. Maybe scouts have discovered that his stuff is off, or some specific reason why he's throwing a lot of gopher balls that can't be easily corrected.

We can only look at the stats but major league teams have access to much more information on him. The fact that this was the best D-Backs could get for him suggests that other teams scouted him, and thought that the odds of him returning to form wasn't high enough to justify trading any top talent to get him.

I was very high on him, but now am less confident of him getting back to being a true TOR starter.

bucksfan2
07-26-2010, 03:14 PM
From some reports I have seen Haren had a no trade clause and wanted to go to a WC team. I guess the reports were correct in saying that Haren had Cincy on his no trade list. When you need to trade a player and he is refusing to go everywhere but a couple of teams you can't demand that much.

Brutus
07-26-2010, 03:28 PM
From some reports I have seen Haren had a no trade clause and wanted to go to a WC team. I guess the reports were correct in saying that Haren had Cincy on his no trade list. When you need to trade a player and he is refusing to go everywhere but a couple of teams you can't demand that much.

He had a limited no-trade. He could say "no" to 12 teams, but that means 18 teams could have traded for him without his approval. It's been reported Cincinnati was on his "no" list, so it's possible the Reds couldn't have traded for him. But in general, he still had a broad list of options.

Brutus
07-26-2010, 03:32 PM
It is very odd that three franchises have given up on Haren. Great point on the large number of WC games remaining in 2010. Haren would have looked nice on the Calif and Az/Col trips. Also his salary would slot well for 2011 (Arroyo) and 2012 (CoCo).

Walt may have viewed Arroyo in 2011 and Haren as a wash. I believe Arroyo is so underappreciated here on RZ and his option should be picked up for next season, but I'd still take Haren two ways to Sunday for 2011.

Given up? I don't think anyone else gave up on him, though perhaps you just used a poor choice of terms.

St. Louis traded him as a value prospect commodity in the Mark Mulder trade -- who at the time was a pretty good pitcher. Oakland traded him because that's what Oakland does. They trade talented pitchers before they begin making too much money.

I don't know what Arizona's motivation for trading him was, though I imagine it was more about money than anything else.

oregonred
07-26-2010, 03:48 PM
Given up was the wrong term, of course. I know the history of each of the deals. He's a topline pitcher. Cliff Lee has been shuffled more than a Vegas Blackjack deck in the last 12 months, but the odd thing with Haren is that he has had multiple years of control each time he was dealt.

I guess the bottom line is that unless you are a big market team you'll be tossed around like a hot potato with more controlled service time than in the past from the trade rental deadline of July 31st in the year of an expiring deal. The 2-month rental market has changed, teams aren't willing to overpay with young pitching prospects anymore, even for a frontline starter.

medford
07-26-2010, 04:11 PM
He had a limited no-trade. He could say "no" to 12 teams, but that means 18 teams could have traded for him without his approval. It's been reported Cincinnati was on his "no" list, so it's possible the Reds couldn't have traded for him. But in general, he still had a broad list of options.

yeah, but you only put 12 teams on the no list that you think may actually trade for you, ie, why would you put pittsburgh on the no trade list if you know pittsburgh isn't going to shell out the money to get ya. Same with KC, perhaps the Marlins and Tampa, Cleveland, Seattle, Milwaukee, etc... He may have only had 12 teams that he could say no to, but if he played his cards right the list of teams that would be able and interested in acquiring him becomes much smaller than 18 teams.

Brutus
07-26-2010, 04:40 PM
yeah, but you only put 12 teams on the no list that you think may actually trade for you, ie, why would you put pittsburgh on the no trade list if you know pittsburgh isn't going to shell out the money to get ya. Same with KC, perhaps the Marlins and Tampa, Cleveland, Seattle, Milwaukee, etc... He may have only had 12 teams that he could say no to, but if he played his cards right the list of teams that would be able and interested in acquiring him becomes much smaller than 18 teams.

Most published lists I've seen in the past indicate this is not the case. This is a logic that some agents advise on their clients, but most guys simply list teams they wouldn't want to play for. Without seeing Haren's actual SPC, we can't say for certain what teams he blocked. But typically they simply wipe out the least desirable places to play.

dougdirt
07-26-2010, 05:17 PM
Talked to a scout a few minutes ago. He said that Haren turned down a trade to the Yankees. Also said the Reds were indeed on his 'no' list. The guy really wanted to stay on the west coast.

lollipopcurve
07-26-2010, 05:24 PM
Talked to a scout a few minutes ago. He said that Haren turned down a trade to the Yankees. Also said the Reds were indeed on his 'no' list. The guy really wanted to stay on the west coast.

Really? In his interview yesterday, Haren said that when the front office guys approached him with news of the trade they asked him to guess which team it was... and he said his first guess was the Yankees. Doesn't sound to me like he'd already nixed a deal to them.

dougdirt
07-26-2010, 05:26 PM
Really? In his interview yesterday, Haren said that when the front office guys approached him with news of the trade they asked him to guess which team it was... and he said his first guess was the Yankees. Doesn't sound to me like he'd already nixed a deal to them.

Just relaying the information that I heard.

lollipopcurve
07-26-2010, 05:27 PM
Just relaying the information that I heard.

What makes you think it's true?

REDREAD
07-26-2010, 05:28 PM
I guess I'm not really disappointed the Reds missed out on this one.

Despite his peripherals, Haren really isn't getting the job done this year, and he's going to be darn expensive. If part of the cost of getting Haren involved not picking up Arroyo's option, then it would've been too steep to pick him up Haren.

I guess I agree with the person that said that for this year, Haren is looking pretty similiar to Harang.

Now, Haren might rebound back to an ace starter, but this is a pretty risky pickup, IMO.

I'm crossing my fingers that Walt digs up a good bullpen arm before the deadline passes.

dougdirt
07-26-2010, 05:30 PM
What makes you think it's true?

Can never really know if its true unless you have first hand accounts of it. But there was/is no reason for him to have made it up.

camisadelgolf
07-26-2010, 05:49 PM
I had also heard that Harden put the Reds on his 'no' list.

CTA513
07-27-2010, 04:23 AM
Haren had to leave early in his Angel debut after taking a line drive off his throwing arm.
I haven't seen any updates so I don't know how bad the injury is.

REDREAD
07-27-2010, 12:01 PM
Haren had to leave early in his Angel debut after taking a line drive off his throwing arm.
I haven't seen any updates so I don't know how bad the injury is.

I Wonder if the Angels are going to file a grievance against the Diamondbacks for trading a player they knew was going to be hit by a line drive :lol:

MattyHo4Life
07-27-2010, 12:04 PM
I think the mistake the DBacks made was that they demanded a young Major League starter to be included in a trade for Haren. At least that is what was making the rounds before the trade happened. The Cardinals originally had a lot of interest in bringing Haren back, but they lost reportedly lost interest when they were told of the demands from the DBacks. The same thing seems to be happening with the Astros and Oswalt. Most teams trading for a top of the rotation starting pitcher right now don't have a good young starter to give up. There is nothing wrong with trading for the best available prospects from any team even if they aren't pitching prospects. I'm not saying the Cardinals fit that bill, because I don't think they do. I just think the DBacks could have gotten a lot more if they opened their eyes to a wider selection of offers.