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nemesis
07-26-2010, 08:15 PM
About time we create a thread for the 17 year olds Phenomenal season and where his baseball roots have grown from.

First off, here is a picture of him from 4 years ago with President Bush. He is the player on the immediate right of G'Dubya.

http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2006/03/images/20060314-6_d-0060-5-515h.html

Seems he was a international exchange player during the Original WBC.

So he has been on US soil before.

Was part of the U16 Venezuelan team that competed in the World Championships. Was teammates with Ismail Guillon. Competed against Bryce Harper. Played 3B for that team.

So it seems he has a bit of international experience against higher competition prior to this year. Has some familiarity with Guillon which makes me wonder if that is why he signed with the Reds.

His stats in general are... Sick.

OPS vs LHP 1.183
OPS vs RHP 1.090

OPS Home 1.074
OPS Road 1.153

May OPS 1.064
June OPS 1.159
July OPS 1.074

Bases Empty OPS 1.157
Runners On OPS 1.040
Scoring Position 1.157

BABIP is .397 (as of 07/23)

LD% vs LHP 31.1%
LD% vs RHP 32.7%

Has reached base 24 out of his last 42 plate appearances (58.7%)

181 of his AB's are as a leadoff hitter.

Leads the VSL by...

.049 in BA
.002 in OBP
.133 in SLG%
3B's by 4 (9)
2B's by 4 (20)
AB's by 2
Hits by 21 (86)
Runs by 9 (50)
Total Bases by 41
2nd in Games played (58)
3rd in SB's (18)
3rd in Lowest K Rate (120 AB's Minimum)
5th in HR's (4)
9th in RBI's (30)

Walk Rate is 8.1%
K Rate is 3.9%

Power ISO is .158

Been HBP 15 times this season.

Only grounded into 3 DP all year.

Has played 25 Games at 3B. 6 Errors. .939 FLD%

Has Played 22 Games at SS. 6 Errors. .950 FLD%

Has played 5 Games in LF. 0 Errors.

Has played 2 Games at 2B. 0 Errors.


So it looks to me he will add to the deep crop of SS's in the Reds system next year. Playing the position well enough to bump Valor, who is reportedly a slick fielder to 2B.

Benihana
07-26-2010, 08:27 PM
So it looks to me he will add to the deep crop of SS's in the Reds system next year. Playing the position well enough to bump Valor, who is reportedly a slick fielder to 2B.

Good to see him do well and join Humberto Valor as the top two pre-Rookie League prospects. Do you (or anyone else who knows about this kind of stuff) really think he'll stay at SS over Valor, who as you acknowledged is supposed to have a great glove? My initial guess would be that Valor is the SS while Torreyes is the 3B, but I have admittedly never seen either play.

NorrisHopper30
07-26-2010, 08:35 PM
Those stats are ridiculous.

nemesis
07-26-2010, 08:47 PM
Good to see him do well and join Humberto Valor as the top two pre-Rookie League prospects. Do you (or anyone else who knows about this kind of stuff) really think he'll stay at SS over Valor, who as you acknowledged is supposed to have a great glove? My initial guess would be that Valor is the SS while Torreyes is the 3B, but I have admittedly never seen either play.

I'm wondering if switch is going to be permanent. He is a bit smallish to play 3B IMO.

The stat I see that makes me go hmmm is that in 22 Games at SS, Torreyes has gotten to 121 balls, committed 6 E's, .950 FLD% and turned 10 DP's. (5.23 chances per game)

Valor has played 33 Games at SS and only played 137 balls (only 3.88 per game) with 9 Errors and a .934 FLD %.

So on paper, Torreyes has better range and a better glove. 3B seems to be held down by Andres Santoni of late, who was playing 1B before Yimmy Lopez took that spot over. Santoni seems to be pretty slick around the 3B bag. So it seems they've hedged their bets.

Another neat fact is Torreyes is only 7 days older than Valor. Sept 2 vs the 9th.

lollipopcurve
07-26-2010, 09:47 PM
He's been an absolute hitting machine. I checked back over some previous years' VSL leader boards, and what Torreyes is doing lays waste to them, and he tends to be a couple years younger than guys who dominated the league in the past. His numbers are simply astronomical so far. Really looking forward to his arrival in the States, still hoping it'll happen this year (though not optimistic).

NorrisHopper30
08-02-2010, 01:17 AM
A little random but I added Torreyes on facebook when this thread was made just for giggles and today he messaged me and we ended up having a long conversation in Spanish. He says he can not wait to get to the United States and is ready for the challenge in America. Seems like a cool kid.

sabometrics
08-02-2010, 01:23 AM
I was into facebook my freshman year, and since then I've totally stopped spending time on it, but that's pretty cool. Reds players on twitter, talking to farmhands on facebook, these are strange days.

NorrisHopper30
08-02-2010, 01:26 AM
He thought I was a Reds player because my status was about Chapman. It was weird having a conversation with Google Translate haha.

sabometrics
08-02-2010, 02:52 AM
Oh LOL I thought you actually spoke Spanish, that's even funnier if you spent the entire conversation copy-pasting to-fro Google Translate.

NorrisHopper30
08-02-2010, 02:09 PM
Oh LOL I thought you actually spoke Spanish, that's even funnier if you spent the entire conversation copy-pasting to-fro Google Translate.

Yeah, and he said I speak very good Spanish...so thank you google translate.


:D

RedsManRick
08-02-2010, 04:50 PM
I'm wondering if switch is going to be permanent. He is a bit smallish to play 3B IMO.

Brandon Inge and Chone Figgins are two smaller guys who have acquitted themselves pretty well. I think more of an issue of having enough power offensively to hold on to a corner IF position and it seems his hitting isn't an issue.

camisadelgolf
08-02-2010, 05:43 PM
Just a fan stat: he has a steady lead in the league for getting hit by pitches. Humberto Valor is tied for third in the league.

NorrisHopper30
08-05-2010, 11:19 PM
Ronald Torreyes just messaged me and said he is promoted and going to Arizona tomorrow. He's pretty pumped to come to America.

sabometrics
08-05-2010, 11:43 PM
Good to hear. I'm excited to hear what scouts think about him. Wish him the best of luck.

Plus Plus
08-06-2010, 12:22 AM
From looking at his stats today, I see his power ISOp as being .216 (.606slg-.390ba). Did he go white hot the other day or am I calculating wrong? I know it's semantics, and I really don't mean for this to come across as being a "gotcha!" moment, but I am just curious if I have been misinformed or something.

sabometrics
08-06-2010, 12:43 AM
Ronald Torreyes is always white-hot. A scout was once astonished after he swung and missed, only to realize the bat had in fact burnt to ash in his bare hands.

OnBaseMachine
08-06-2010, 01:20 AM
Great to hear. I can't wait to see how he does in Arizona.

medford
08-06-2010, 08:05 AM
I'm pretty sure major league organizations are not in the business of bringing over prospects illegally, therefor he has nothing to worry about.

membengal
08-06-2010, 08:56 AM
I think that was more a comment on Arizona's new racial profiling law.

medford
08-06-2010, 09:26 AM
I know where it was directed at, but rather than turn it into a pointless political debate, I thought I'd point out the stuipity of the statement if taken at face value.

NorrisHopper30
08-11-2010, 05:51 PM
Torreyes is 7 for his first 15 in Arizona so far OPSing 1.133

camisadelgolf
08-11-2010, 06:06 PM
Torreyes is 7 for his first 15 in Arizona so far OPSing 1.133
Don't worry. I'm sure he'll break out of his slump sooner or later.

texasdave
08-11-2010, 06:53 PM
Don't worry. I'm sure he'll break out of his slump sooner or later.

I know I am getting wayyyyy ahead of myself, but it would be nice for the Reds to have a leadoff hitter that actually gets on base at a goodly clip.

Grande Donkey
08-11-2010, 07:10 PM
I know I am getting wayyyyy ahead of myself, but it would be nice for the Reds to have a leadoff hitter that actually gets on base at a goodly clip.

It would be nice, but from what I know about Torreyes (not that much mind you), he has too good of a bat to not be in the middle of the order.

lollipopcurve
08-11-2010, 08:19 PM
It would be nice, but from what I know about Torreyes (not that much mind you), he has too good of a bat to not be in the middle of the order.

What do you know about him?

camisadelgolf
08-11-2010, 08:56 PM
Torreyes' size suggests he's not a middle-of-the-lineup hitter. I think the most optimistic outcome to hope for is Brian Roberts.

Redmachine2003
08-11-2010, 09:12 PM
The way he has walked alot more then he strikes out the numbers so far remind me of Joe Morgan. With his build and extra base numbers.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 10:58 PM
Ben Badler on Ronald Torreyes:

OnBaseMachine @BenBadler You have any reports on #Reds prospect Ronald Torreyes?

He's interesting. Not a big tools guy, but good hitter, surprising pop for his size

http://twitter.com/BenBadler

Redmachine2003
08-11-2010, 11:51 PM
Not much on tools from the number of extra base hits and SBs it looks like speed is a good tool. And seems to have a good eye at the plate

nemesis
08-12-2010, 10:16 AM
Chances are Ben had never heard of him, went to MiLB.com, looked at his number and size and formed a quick eh opinion.

He defiantly knows how to handle a bat and has lots of success as a amateur ballplayer. Defiantly someone I am excited to see develop.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2010, 10:32 AM
Chances are Ben had never heard of him, went to MiLB.com, looked at his number and size and formed a quick eh opinion.


Agreed. And he's Baseball America's international guru......

texasdave
08-12-2010, 04:00 PM
Chances are Ben had never heard of him, went to MiLB.com, looked at his number and size and formed a quick eh opinion.

He defiantly knows how to handle a bat and has lots of success as a amateur ballplayer. Defiantly someone I am excited to see develop.

I defiantly agree with this post. :)

nemesis
08-16-2010, 08:05 PM
Cristo Jesus de savior is now OPSing 1.047 in his first 8 games (5 Multi-hit) in the US. Has reached base in all 8 games. Props to OBM, found some pics of him and other Arizona league kids on http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/

Torreyes looks like a freaking bat boy. I am doing the honors and dubbing him Ronald "Raton" (Mouse) Torreyes.

Here are some pics of Raton...

http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/AZL-Reds-2010/G0000tEUJyoHEUSg/I0000PwBT5XNn.BU/P00009dZ7dG_1Wo8

Lol... Look at his helmet...

http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/AZL-Reds-2010/G0000tEUJyoHEUSg/I0000eaIUSnpIN3Q/P00009dZ7dG_1Wo8

http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/AZL-Reds-2010/G0000tEUJyoHEUSg/I0000xOhvmulVJNY/P00009dZ7dG_1Wo8

http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/AZL-Reds-2010/G0000tEUJyoHEUSg/I0000Nke8d1P90y4/P00009dZ7dG_1Wo8

http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/AZL-Reds-2010/G0000tEUJyoHEUSg/I0000ZfL0ArZ6Y8c/P00009dZ7dG_1Wo8

http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/AZL-Reds-2010/G0000tEUJyoHEUSg/I0000RE8v5HGXymU/P00009dZ7dG_1Wo8

mdccclxix
08-16-2010, 08:09 PM
Cristo Jesus de savior is now OPSing 1.047 in his first 8 games (5 Multi-hit) in the US. Has reached base in all 8 games. Props to OBM, found some pics of him and other Arizona league kids on http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/

Torreyes looks like a freaking bat boy. I am doing the honors and dubbing him Ronald "Raton" (Mouse) Torreyes.

Here are some pics of Raton...

http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/AZL-Reds-2010/G0000tEUJyoHEUSg/I0000PwBT5XNn.BU/P00009dZ7dG_1Wo8

Lol... Look at his helmet...

http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/AZL-Reds-2010/G0000tEUJyoHEUSg/I0000eaIUSnpIN3Q/P00009dZ7dG_1Wo8

http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/AZL-Reds-2010/G0000tEUJyoHEUSg/I0000xOhvmulVJNY/P00009dZ7dG_1Wo8

http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/AZL-Reds-2010/G0000tEUJyoHEUSg/I0000Nke8d1P90y4/P00009dZ7dG_1Wo8

http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/AZL-Reds-2010/G0000tEUJyoHEUSg/I0000ZfL0ArZ6Y8c/P00009dZ7dG_1Wo8

http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/AZL-Reds-2010/G0000tEUJyoHEUSg/I0000RE8v5HGXymU/P00009dZ7dG_1Wo8

You aren't kidding. Sometimes less is more.

texasdave
08-16-2010, 08:10 PM
I am suprised that "Raton" isn't pulled by the fifth inning of every game in order to give him enough time to get home before being grounded.

nemesis
08-16-2010, 08:18 PM
I am suprised that "Raton" isn't pulled by the fifth inning of every game in order to give him enough time to get home before being grounded.

LMAO... Killed me... "Sorry guys gotta go. Can I have my ball back...?"

lollipopcurve
08-16-2010, 08:51 PM
Photo of his follow through is nice. Great front side, torque and balance, and love the high level finish sans top hand. Back foot vs. strong front side shows he explodes very well into his swing.

If you forward through that whole sequence after Torreyes you come upon some photos of Kyle Waldrop. That's a great site.

nemesis
08-16-2010, 09:21 PM
Photo of his follow through is nice. Great front side, torque and balance, and love the high level finish sans top hand. Back foot vs. strong front side shows he explodes very well into his swing.

If you forward through that whole sequence after Torreyes you come upon some photos of Kyle Waldrop. That's a great site.

Yeah I saw the pics of Waldrop and Arias. Both have big, broad frames. Lots of room to grow.

Superdude
08-16-2010, 10:30 PM
Well I've lost a lot of hope in Torreyes, but Waldrop reminded me of a young Colby Rasmus. Give and take I guess.

BakoTheTako
08-16-2010, 10:54 PM
Well I've lost a lot of hope in Torreyes, but Waldrop reminded me of a young Colby Rasmus. Give and take I guess.

Why, because he's so small? If anything that's a good thing because if he's hitting this good at that size then imagine what he will do once he puts on some muscle and possibly grows a few inches.

NorrisHopper30
08-16-2010, 10:58 PM
Well I've lost a lot of hope in Torreyes, but Waldrop reminded me of a young Colby Rasmus. Give and take I guess.

Torreyes is 17. Are you kidding me?

Superdude
08-17-2010, 12:47 AM
Torreyes is 17. Are you kidding me?

I know! I totally would have said 13. ;) Those first two pictures don't do him any favors.

Texas Pete
08-17-2010, 01:29 AM
I wonder how much more power Torreyes could add once he fills out his frame/gets stronger?.....I really like his upside.

dougdirt
08-17-2010, 01:35 AM
I wonder how much more power Torreyes could add once he fills out his frame/gets stronger?.....I really like his upside.

Can I ask what upside? I haven't seen any real scouting reports on him yet and just a few pictures of him with no video. What is his upside that has you really liking it?

11larkin11
08-17-2010, 02:10 AM
Can I ask what upside? I haven't seen any real scouting reports on him yet and just a few pictures of him with no video. What is his upside that has you really liking it?

This. I think people realllly need to curb their enthusiasm with him. Before two months ago, no one knew who he was, and no one still does, just know his numbers. I know people aren't getting too far ahead, but still, its just the VSL and a few AZL at bats. I remember the same hype about Efrain Contreras a few years ago. Different things happen in Venezuela and the DR.

nemesis
08-17-2010, 02:31 AM
This. I think people realllly need to curb their enthusiasm with him. Before two months ago, no one knew who he was, and no one still does, just know his numbers. I know people aren't getting too far ahead, but still, its just the VSL and a few AZL at bats. I remember the same hype about Efrain Contreras a few years ago. Different things happen in Venezuela and the DR.

Eh. Most of this is in good fun. But the kid has a unheard of season. So if it's a one year wonder, so be it. Doesn't mean we all can't enjoy it or have a little fun with the posts...

texasdave
08-17-2010, 02:34 AM
It's a feel-good story. He looks like the team batboy but goes out and gets two hits seemingly every game. It's something fun to follow. I don't think anyone has him heading to Cooperstown at this point. :)

Plus Plus
08-17-2010, 09:48 AM
It's always exciting when a 17 year old is declaring war on the baseball so vehemently. I don't think people's expectations of Raton extend much beyond that.

lollipopcurve
08-17-2010, 10:00 AM
It's always exciting when a 17 year old is declaring war on the baseball so vehemently. I don't think people's expectations of Raton extend much beyond that.

Well put.

No Reds minor leaguer has racked up hits the way Torreyes has since Redus hit .462 at Billings about 30 years ago.

dougdirt
08-17-2010, 12:52 PM
This. I think people realllly need to curb their enthusiasm with him. Before two months ago, no one knew who he was, and no one still does, just know his numbers. I know people aren't getting too far ahead, but still, its just the VSL and a few AZL at bats. I remember the same hype about Efrain Contreras a few years ago. Different things happen in Venezuela and the DR.

Well C.ontreras was 20, while Torreyes is 17, so that is a big difference. But yeah, things are a little different in the international leagues than they are in the states. So far so good for Torreyes though.

mace
08-17-2010, 01:10 PM
Well C.ontreras was 20, while Torreyes is 17, so that is a big difference. But yeah, things are a little different in the international leagues than they are in the states. So far so good for Torreyes though.

Nor did Contreras lay waste to a league like Torreyes did . . . and then carry on the same kind of performance to the next league.

dougdirt
08-17-2010, 01:25 PM
Nor did Contreras lay waste to a league like Torreyes did . . . and then carry on the same kind of performance to the next league.

Well I think it is a little early to say he carried it on. He has less than 10 games played so far.

lollipopcurve
08-17-2010, 01:31 PM
Well I think it is a little early to say he carried it on. He has less than 10 games played so far.

Perhaps, but the fact he hasn't missed a beat in moving to a new league in a new country is certainly reason enough to be even more enthusiastic about the kid than we were a couple weeks ago.

dougdirt
08-17-2010, 01:32 PM
Perhaps, but the fact he hasn't missed a beat in moving to a new league in a new country is certainly reason enough to be even more enthusiastic about the kid than we were a couple weeks ago.

One thing gets me more excited about him than the numbers, and its the fact that the Reds brought a 17 year old to the US. They just don't do that often.

nemesis
08-17-2010, 06:18 PM
One thing gets me more excited about him than the numbers, and its the fact that the Reds brought a 17 year old to the US. They just don't do that often.

Especially if you fact in that he isn't a high profile, get your invest back kinda kid. He is just a 17 yr old kid. One thing that I wonder is, how do they go about letting him play and live in the US without a guardian or parental figure around?

Texas Pete
08-17-2010, 07:34 PM
Can I ask what upside? I haven't seen any real scouting reports on him yet and just a few pictures of him with no video. What is his upside that has you really liking it?

I guess I misspoke.

Looking at his age/stats/frame, I'm just thinking that he could possibly show significant improvement if gets a lot stronger and that I like him as a prospect.

texasdave
08-19-2010, 03:58 AM
Torreyes got hit again last night. He must have at least 15 HBP this year. I have never seen video of him at the plate. Does he stand right on top of the plate or, being a little guy, does he dive into the ball?

OnBaseMachine
02-14-2011, 12:10 PM
*Bump*

From Ben Badler:

Is Ronald Torreyes a legitimate prospect for the Reds, or flukish breakout in VSL/AZL?

Badler - Built like a jockey, but very legit

http://twitter.com/home#search?q=Ronald%20Torreyes

OnBaseMachine
02-17-2011, 12:13 AM
Jim Callis on Torreyes:

Ronald Torreyes have a real shot to become a top prospect? #Reds

Callis - Not many 5-ft-7 top prospects. Good D at 2B, can handle bat.

http://twitter.com/jimcallisBA

corkedbat
02-18-2011, 06:49 PM
Jim Callis on Torreyes:

Ronald Torreyes have a real shot to become a top prospect? #Reds

Callis - Not many 5-ft-7 top prospects. Good D at 2B, can handle bat.

http://twitter.com/jimcallisBA

Joe Morgan was 5-8. Not comparing the two, but I think a smaller guy has the ability to succeed in baseball more than the other two major sports.

I'd love nothing more than to see both Hamilton and Torreyes build upon last year and end up batting one-two in Cincy in about three or four years. Hamilton with a high OBP and his amazing speed and Torreyes behind him with good contact and a small strike zone. It's a long way off, but having your DP combination capable of hitting at the top of the order gives you room for a lot of flexibility (and pop) all the way down the order..

Lockdwn11
02-19-2011, 12:26 AM
Jim Callis on Torreyes:

Ronald Torreyes have a real shot to become a top prospect? #Reds

Callis - Not many 5-ft-7 top prospects. Good D at 2B, can handle bat.

http://twitter.com/jimcallisBA

The kid is 17 years old, who's to say he won't grow another inch or two not that it really matters.

membengal
02-19-2011, 07:04 AM
This is just a general observation based on the Hamilton thread and this one. There's been a bent to somewhat dismissive/crticical takes on prospects who are still in there TEENS and have plenty of development time/growth time ahead of them.

As far as Torreyes goes, if his height ends up around 5'8" or 5'9" (not exactly hard to do given his youth and that he's already 5'7" at age 17), why would anyone fixate on his height? Is it just because I am 40 and remember Joe Morgan that I am not bothered by his height? Or is it because I have seen Dustin Pedroia play -someone who is not exactly tall?

Point is, perhaps we can just focus on the stuff that kinda matters with Torryes, which is whether he can hit and catch balls hit to him as well? Because if he keeps doing those things as he moves into his full season years in American ball, he's a genuine prospect, even if he never grows another inch.

dougdirt
02-19-2011, 01:04 PM
This is just a general observation based on the Hamilton thread and this one. There's been a bent to somewhat dismissive/crticical takes on prospects who are still in there TEENS and have plenty of development time/growth time ahead of them.

As far as Torreyes goes, if his height ends up around 5'8" or 5'9" (not exactly hard to do given his youth and that he's already 5'7" at age 17), why would anyone fixate on his height? Is it just because I am 40 and remember Joe Morgan that I am not bothered by his height? Or is it because I have seen Dustin Pedroia play -someone who is not exactly tall?

Point is, perhaps we can just focus on the stuff that kinda matters with Torryes, which is whether he can hit and catch balls hit to him as well? Because if he keeps doing those things as he moves into his full season years in American ball, he's a genuine prospect, even if he never grows another inch.

I think the point is more that guys his size don't often make it all the way there and size is generally seen as the reason why. Yes, some guys do make it who are undersized, but to overlook it is probably not the best idea.

But, with his age, he could certainly grow a few inches still.

membengal
02-19-2011, 03:59 PM
I think the point is more that guys his size don't often make it all the way there and size is generally seen as the reason why. Yes, some guys do make it who are undersized, but to overlook it is probably not the best idea.

But, with his age, he could certainly grow a few inches still.

Point is that generalizations suck the big one.

dougdirt
02-19-2011, 04:03 PM
Point is that generalizations suck the big one.

Except that when it comes to sports and projection of ability, they are more often correct than they are incorrect. So it does matter in these cases. That doesn't mean some guys won't be the exception, but there is a reason that there aren't many guys that size out there.

membengal
02-19-2011, 04:08 PM
No, doug, they do not matter. I loathe generalizations as tools of the lazy. Each prospect should be evaluated on his merits, not lumped into a bucket and dismissed.

And those merits include things like, um, "hitting" and "fielding".

dougdirt
02-19-2011, 04:12 PM
No, doug, they do not matter. I loathe generalizations as tools of the lazy. Each prospect should be evaluated on his merits, not lumped into a bucket and dismissed.

And those merits include things like, um, "hitting" and "fielding".

And hitting includes things like strength and power, things that aren't as prevalent in guys who are small in stature. It isn't lazy, its simple facts that apply to most people of similar size. Certainly each prospect should be evaluated on their own merits, but size/projection is one of those merits. A pitcher with terrible mechanics is judged based on those, why shouldn't a small statured hitter be judged on that since the projection isn't likely as good given his size? Sure, he could buck the trend just like the pitcher with poor mechanics, but it isn't as likely.

membengal
02-19-2011, 04:14 PM
No, doug, it's lazy. And if you have started falling into this sort of player-evaluation lazy speak yourself, I challenge you to drop that. Odds are Torryes would not have succeeded to the level he did last year if he had the issues you are speaking of. Hence, my point that each prospect should be evaluated on his own merits. Focus should be on whether he can keep hitting, and if he doesn't, I don't think size has anything to do with it.

This is what kills me about such lazy dismissiveness...Joe Morgan, 5'7" 160 pounds.

I am NOT saying Torryes can ever be anything like Morgan, or that he will ever progress past A ball. Hell if I know. But I am comfortable that the final analysis for any prospect should be on actual results on the field, and last year it was clear that Torryes, even at his size, hit the ball with authority.

We've had to listen to the same generalizations crap with Cueto for years too. Short right-handed starter, oh nos! Horror! Only he's been really good. Even if he never throws another pitch in the big leagues, he's been a success.

dougdirt
02-19-2011, 04:36 PM
It isn't lazy. It is based on a long history of guys of a similar stature not making it. Size is a part of projecting a hitter. It isn't all of it, but size/strength certainly plays into ones power and ability to hit for an average. To pretend otherwise would be foolish.

membengal
02-19-2011, 05:42 PM
Who's pretending otherwise? I simply stated my disappoointment w/ analysis that leads w/ lazy generalizations. I stand by that. Given what he did last year, I would be hella curious about if he profiles to be one of those who bucks the generalization. As opposed to a simple recitation that many people his size don't make it. That's pretty much a "duh" observation.

bubbachunk
02-19-2011, 07:51 PM
So it is lazy to look at size of a prospect but to defend your argument you only mention two players in the last 40 years out of how many thousands of total players?

The numbers are not in your favor, like it or not. Size always has something to do with projections.

membengal
02-19-2011, 08:32 PM
So it is lazy to look at size of a prospect but to defend your argument you only mention two players in the last 40 years out of how many thousands of total players?

The numbers are not in your favor, like it or not. Size always has something to do with projections.

Hey, way to miss the point. Applause to you.

He's already done something very noteworthy in his debut last year. Whether he was 5'7" or 6'7". So god forbid analysis start with what he did last year and discuss what his approach is that allowed him to do that, etc., and whether it is the kind of thing he can carry forward. Because THAT would be interesting to read. Pretty much anyone with a pulse knows that generally shorter players don't profile as easy to see coming prospects, hence, "duh". What would be FAR more interesting are discussions of Torryes that don't begin with his shortness. I mentioned Morgan and Pedroia as reminders that not all players who succeed profile classic-ly. Should I have mentioned Hack Wilson too? Do you want me to run every name of such players in baseball history? Why? I know that not as many have made it at that height as at taller heights. But discussions don't end there, because sometimes players do make it from the shorter heights, and I would really be curious as to a look at whether or not Torryes might be one who can, as opposed to dismissive posts that he will not, simply because he is short.

Lockdwn11
02-19-2011, 09:18 PM
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/charts/heights/heights.shtml




Baseball Almanac is pleased to present a comprehensive chart of ballplayer heights. Important notes about the chart: the most common heights are included (lesser common heights are in the fast facts) and the player's with ˝ heights have been excluded (a breakdown of their exact numbers are in the fast facts as well).

DirtyBaker
02-19-2011, 09:22 PM
Hypothetically, I'll create a football team 220 lb guys who run a 4.4 and bench press 400 lbs, you pick random guys off the street.

Generalities are generalities. They're not 100% but 're I could say with almost absolute certainty that my football team would win.

membengal
02-19-2011, 09:58 PM
Hypothetically, I'll create a football team 220 lb guys who run a 4.4 and bench press 400 lbs, you pick random guys off the street.

Generalities are generalities. They're not 100% but 're I could say with almost absolute certainty that my football team would win.

Once again, a complete whiff on the point.

corkedbat
02-20-2011, 01:56 AM
I went through the 40-man rosters and made a list of all the guys who are sub-5'10". There's some talent there actually. If Torreyes were on the Reds 40-man today, the Reds own DRH (shortest player on a MLB roster) would be the only man shorter. Herrera is also only one of two pitchers listed as below 5'10". The Pillies actually start two sub-5'10" players in their everyday lineup - Rollins & Victorino.

The moral of the list below, IMHO, is that if Ronald can grow and inch or two in the next couple of years he should be fine. Although I submit that sports teams of all kinds are notorious for fudging heights and it would not surprise me if more than a couple of those listed at 5'8" weren't actually closer to 5'7".

Brian Roberts S-R 5'9" 175 (BAL)
Cesar Izturis S-R 5'9" 180 (BAL)
Dustin Pedroia R-R 5'9" 180 (BOS)
Eduardo Escobar S-R 5'8" 160 (BOS)
Omar Vizquel S-R 5'9" 175 (CHW)
Will Rhymes L-R 5'9" (DET)
Jarrod Dyson L-R 5'9" 160 (KC)
Alberto Callaspo S-R 5'8" (LAA)
Maicer Izturis S-R 5'8" 170 (LAA)
Alexi Casilla S-R 5'9" (MIN)
Ben Revere L-R 5'9" 175 (MIN)
Chone Figgins S-R 5'8" (SEA)
Mike McCoy R-R 5'9" 175 (TOR)
Tony Abreu S-R 5'9" (ARZ)
Matt Young L-R 5'8" 175 (ATL)
Daniel Ray Herrera L-L 5'6" 165 (CIN)
Jonathan Herrera S-R 5'9" 150 (COL)
Humberto Quintero R-R 5'9" 220 (HOU)
Jason Bourgeois R-R 5'9" 190 (HOU)
Dioner Navarro S-R 5'9" 205 (LAD)
Jamey Carroll R-R 5'9" 170 (LAD)
Rafael Furcal S-R 5'8" 195 (LAD)
Michael Martinez S-R 5'9" 145 (PHI)
Jimmy Rollins S-R 5'8" 170 (PHI)
Shane Victorino S-R 5'9" 190 (PHI)
Alex Presley L-L 5'9" 180 (PIT)
Jarrett Hoffpauir R-R 5'9" 190 (SD)
Luis Durango S-R 5'9" (SD)
Mike Fontenot L-R 5'8" 170 (SF)
Miguel Tejada R-R 5'9" 210 (SF)
Darren Ford R-R 5'9" 190 (SF)
Andres Torres S-R 5'9" 190 (SF)
Nick Punto S-R 5'9" 190 (STL)
Atahualpa Severino L-L 5'9" 170 (WAS)
Ivan Rodriguez R-R 5'9" 205 (WAS)

bubbachunk
02-20-2011, 11:30 AM
Hey, way to miss the point. Applause to you.

He's already done something very noteworthy in his debut last year. Whether he was 5'7" or 6'7". So god forbid analysis start with what he did last year and discuss what his approach is that allowed him to do that, etc., and whether it is the kind of thing he can carry forward. Because THAT would be interesting to read. Pretty much anyone with a pulse knows that generally shorter players don't profile as easy to see coming prospects, hence, "duh". What would be FAR more interesting are discussions of Torryes that don't begin with his shortness. I mentioned Morgan and Pedroia as reminders that not all players who succeed profile classic-ly. Should I have mentioned Hack Wilson too? Do you want me to run every name of such players in baseball history? Why? I know that not as many have made it at that height as at taller heights. But discussions don't end there, because sometimes players do make it from the shorter heights, and I would really be curious as to a look at whether or not Torryes might be one who can, as opposed to dismissive posts that he will not, simply because he is short.

God forbid you take one point about his projectability so far to the extreme. The kid is still more unknown than anything. Some scouts have seen him, but not that many still. You wanting to ignore his size as it relates to him as a prospect when we have seen throughout history that with great certainty it is a fairly good indicator is maddening.

texasdave
02-20-2011, 11:56 AM
If size was going to be an issue why would anyone ever sign someone 5'7"? Every comment I have read about him and every stat that I have seen indicates that he is a ballplayer. So let him advance level by level and let the chips fall where they may. Just like any other prospect.

membengal
02-20-2011, 11:56 AM
Reading is fundamental. God forbid people do some of that. I am NOT ignoring his size. I AM asking why that must be the lede, given the year he had last year. I AM asking about what he did that made him successful and whether it will be something that he can carry forward, even with his size. In short, I AM wanting more from this forum than easy generalities.

In the past, this place has not given into that bent. I guess I have higher standards for the discussion on this forum based on the past.

My bad.

He sux. He's too short. Next.

Better?

membengal
02-20-2011, 11:58 AM
If size was going to be an issue why would anyone ever sign someone 5'7"? Every comment I have read about him and every stat that I have seen indicates that he is a ballplayer. So let him advance level by level and let the chips fall where they may. Just like any other prospect.

This. Amen.

ETA: Thanks for that list up above, corked. Interesting, and the work in putting it together is appreciated.

bubbachunk
02-20-2011, 12:59 PM
If size was going to be an issue why would anyone ever sign someone 5'7"? Every comment I have read about him and every stat that I have seen indicates that he is a ballplayer. So let him advance level by level and let the chips fall where they may. Just like any other prospect.

Because 16/17 year olds tend to still have growing to do

Scrap Irony
02-20-2011, 01:37 PM
Brian Roberts S-R 5'9" 175 (BAL)
Dustin Pedroia R-R 5'9" 180 (BOS)
Omar Vizquel S-R 5'9" 175 (CHW)
Chone Figgins S-R 5"8" 170 (SEA)
Rafael Furcal S-R 5'8" 195 (LAD)
Jimmy Rollins S-R 5'8" 170 (PHI)
Miguel Tejada R-R 5'9" 210 (SF)


I took out all the merely decent starters, role players, roster filler, and prospects from the 40-man rosters. I left only the former MVPs, All-Stars, and well above average major league players.

All of these guys are not just good middle infielders, but have been great ones. None of them are over 5"8" (listed sizes be darned).

To poo-pooh a player simply because of his size (or lack thereof) would be to miss these eight exceptional talents.

Is Torreyes this good? Dunno. But he's done enough at a low level to peak my interest. His glove is supposedly top-notch. His hit tool has so far proven exceptional. (Not just good, but phenomenally good.)

His offensive numbers (one of two aspects to judge a player) were so far above his contemporaries as to be remarkable. The next closest same or similar age prospect in the Venezuelan or Arizona Leagues was more than 30 points behind in BA and well over 100 in slugging and OPS.

Those scouts that have seen him like his tools, too.

The only real mark against him is size. membengal is absolutely right here. (As per usual.) To simply discount the guy based only on his size is a generalization not deserving of a Red prospect on a Red site. We expect that (and make fun of it) in national reporters because they, frankly, have more to than report on Red prosects.

We don't.

dougdirt
02-20-2011, 10:40 PM
Hey, way to miss the point. Applause to you.

He's already done something very noteworthy in his debut last year. Whether he was 5'7" or 6'7". So god forbid analysis start with what he did last year and discuss what his approach is that allowed him to do that, etc., and whether it is the kind of thing he can carry forward. Because THAT would be interesting to read. Pretty much anyone with a pulse knows that generally shorter players don't profile as easy to see coming prospects, hence, "duh". What would be FAR more interesting are discussions of Torryes that don't begin with his shortness. I mentioned Morgan and Pedroia as reminders that not all players who succeed profile classic-ly. Should I have mentioned Hack Wilson too? Do you want me to run every name of such players in baseball history? Why? I know that not as many have made it at that height as at taller heights. But discussions don't end there, because sometimes players do make it from the shorter heights, and I would really be curious as to a look at whether or not Torryes might be one who can, as opposed to dismissive posts that he will not, simply because he is short.

Except you still simply can't ignore size when looking at what he could one day do. A guy like Miguel Rojas for example, a scout wondered if pitchers would knock the bat out of his hand when he got to the upper levels of the minor leagues because of his size/strength. Size matters.

dougdirt
02-20-2011, 10:43 PM
The only real mark against him is size. membengal is absolutely right here. (As per usual.) To simply discount the guy based only on his size is a generalization not deserving of a Red prospect on a Red site. We expect that (and make fun of it) in national reporters because they, frankly, have more to than report on Red prosects.

We don't.

No one is writing him off as a prospect because of his size. Simply suggesting it may play against him in the future if he doesn't improve his size.

Scrap Irony
02-20-2011, 11:23 PM
No one is writing him off as a prospect because of his size. Simply suggesting it may play against him in the future if he doesn't improve his size.

Which is a fairly silly thing to suggest, as just about every human being in the world gets bigger and stronger from 17 to adulthood. He's going to get bigger.

The reasons he may not stick in the higher levels has little to do with size, doug. Small guys do well in baseball, particularly in the middle of the diamond, as evidenced by the list of small guys on 40-man rosters and in All-Star games.

He has shown an ability to hit and hit with pop. (That 550+ OPS would look great in a softball league, let alone in professional baseball.) That's something Miguel Rojas hasn't done yet. His pedigree also speaks highly of his ability to hit the ball with authority.

But your site, for example, doesn't even list him among the top 25 prospects in the Red pipeline.

I'd say that's the vey definition of "writing him off".

Scrap Irony
02-20-2011, 11:24 PM
Except you still simply can't ignore size when looking at what he could one day do. A guy like Miguel Rojas for example, a scout wondered if pitchers would knock the bat out of his hand when he got to the upper levels of the minor leagues because of his size/strength. Size matters.

Did Miguel Rojas ever slug 560 over a full season?

Size doesn't matter.

Power does.

dougdirt
02-21-2011, 03:32 AM
Which is a fairly silly thing to suggest, as just about every human being in the world gets bigger and stronger from 17 to adulthood. He's going to get bigger.
And some guys get a lot bigger, while some simply don't. Some guys simply don't have the frame to get much bigger. It is why we project these players rather than just go on what they are today. It is why Billy Hamilton and Dee Gordon aren't expected to hit for power in the future, because they don't have the frame to add good weight.



The reasons he may not stick in the higher levels has little to do with size, doug. Small guys do well in baseball, particularly in the middle of the diamond, as evidenced by the list of small guys on 40-man rosters and in All-Star games.
And I bet the list of "bigger guys" on those lists are immensely longer. And to suggest that size and strength have nothing to do with why some guys will struggle at a higher level is simply incorrect. This isn't to say Torreyes won't, but some guys fall into that problem.



He has shown an ability to hit and hit with pop. (That 550+ OPS would look great in a softball league, let alone in professional baseball.) That's something Miguel Rojas hasn't done yet. His pedigree also speaks highly of his ability to hit the ball with authority.
It is rookie ball. While its a nice sign, it hardly means something. As for Torreyes and his pedigree..... what pedigree? 100 at bats in the United States in the most friendly run scoring environment in the minor leagues? Or in the Venezuelan League where the competition level is somewhere below junior college level baseball where he also has less than a full seasons worth of data to go on?



But your site, for example, doesn't even list him among the top 25 prospects in the Red pipeline.

I'd say that's the vey definition of "writing him off".
And I would say that your definition of writing him off is a whole lot different than mine is. Heck, even BA had him at #22, so were they close to writing him off too? 22 is pretty close to 26. There is a very big difference between writing someone off and being skeptical about someone.

dougdirt
02-21-2011, 03:41 AM
Did Miguel Rojas ever slug 560 over a full season?

Size doesn't matter.

Power does.

Size correlates to power. There is a reason your middle infielders don't hit for the power that your corner infielders do. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule, but are we really trying to argue that a guy who is 5'7" and 130 pounds is truly going to hit for power in the major leagues if he doesn't grow either height wise or weight wise? Torreyes had a .145 Isolated Power in the AZL last season. That isn't really power. Now, for his age, its pretty good. But his SLG was high because he hit .350, not because he had power. That power will play just fine at a MI spot, so as long as he continue to show that, it should be just fine.

bubbachunk
02-21-2011, 08:47 AM
Which is a fairly silly thing to suggest, as just about every human being in the world gets bigger and stronger from 17 to adulthood. He's going to get bigger.

The reasons he may not stick in the higher levels has little to do with size, doug. Small guys do well in baseball, particularly in the middle of the diamond, as evidenced by the list of small guys on 40-man rosters and in All-Star games.

He has shown an ability to hit and hit with pop. (That 550+ OPS would look great in a softball league, let alone in professional baseball.) That's something Miguel Rojas hasn't done yet. His pedigree also speaks highly of his ability to hit the ball with authority.

But your site, for example, doesn't even list him among the top 25 prospects in the Red pipeline.

I'd say that's the vey definition of "writing him off".

Not everyone gets bigger and fills out as they get older. I went to high school with a kid who was 6'8 and weighed 135lbs. Guess what, 4 years later he might weigh 150 and he was in a college basketball program during that time. Some people just cannot put on good weight, they are just skinny/scrawny their entire lifes.

lollipopcurve
02-21-2011, 10:47 AM
There are two reasons people downgrade prospects who are little guys. Projectability and prejudice. I'm glad the Reds didn't buy into that thinking when scouting Torreyes. The key is in recognizing which guys break the mold. It's not easy. Pedroia lasted into the supplemental 1st round, meaning most, if not all, MLB clubs passed on him at least once.

Keep in mind that Torreyes' numbers in the VSL were stratospheric, and he was playing with mostly older kids. Check VSL stats going back a few years. What he did as a 17 year-old was phenomenal. Add in the anecdotal reports we've seen about his defense, and it is certainly possible, IMO, that this is a kid who will crush his limitations.

Hoosier Red
02-21-2011, 11:04 AM
Once again, a complete whiff on the point.

Here's what I think you're missing mem, the generalities play a part in how the prospect projects.
Not height so much, but if a guy is only 130 lbs, even at age 17, there is only so much room for him to fill out.

Tools like hitting and fielding are important, but how do you measure them? Only through stats? If that were the case there'd be no need for scouts, you'd just promote the players who have performed the best.

The reason every one in the minor league system projected Drew Stubbs as a potential 20 HR guy, even though he couldn't hit 20 homers at various stages in the minors if you spotted him the first 15 is because of his physical tools.

Torreyes may be the exception, but the exception gets treated differently than the rule. Whereas the rule is treated as a top propsect until he proves that he isn't, the exception won't be treated as a top prospect until he proves he is. And even then there will be skepticism.

Homer Bailey
02-21-2011, 12:41 PM
I'll chime in with just a quick thought. Simply naming short players that have had success is great to prove the point that short players CAN have success in the major leagues, but it does not provide any evidence that it is LIKELY that a short player will succeed.

dougdirt
02-21-2011, 12:46 PM
There are two reasons people downgrade prospects who are little guys. Projectability and prejudice. I'm glad the Reds didn't buy into that thinking when scouting Torreyes. The key is in recognizing which guys break the mold. It's not easy. Pedroia lasted into the supplemental 1st round, meaning most, if not all, MLB clubs passed on him at least once.

Keep in mind that Torreyes' numbers in the VSL were stratospheric, and he was playing with mostly older kids. Check VSL stats going back a few years. What he did as a 17 year-old was phenomenal. Add in the anecdotal reports we've seen about his defense, and it is certainly possible, IMO, that this is a kid who will crush his limitations.

Two points here. If we assume that Pedroia is as his listed 5'8" and 180 pounds, he has 1 inch in height on Torreyes (which isn't important at all) but very likely 40-50 pounds of good weight on him (which is very important).

To your second point, you very well could be right. What he did in the VSL was incredibly impressive. Bat on ball skills were beyond outstanding, especially in a league where the pitchers are incredibly wild. There are certainly signs that he could be a guy who can be an exception. But those signs have only been shown at levels where the other players on the field also have a bunch of giant question marks too. The VSL, while its technically full of professional players, is so far below even the GCL/AZL in terms of talent, its not funny. The AZL numbers were nice in terms of the strike out rate and the solid pop he showed.

But as far as filling out.... I can't look at this picture of him (http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=35&_bqH=eJwrSHRN8i0p9YgsyCzMS4vyD01zC6lKtSguTEu3MjQyt TI1sDI0AAIrz3iXYGfbovy8xJwU7ZL8oqLUytRiNc_40GDXoHh PF9tQkKook0JTr4yoitzQSLV4R.cQ2.LUxKLkDACr7iEf&GI_ID=) and see him filling out much. Or this one (http://fourseamimages.photoshelter.com/image?&_bqG=32&_bqH=eJwrSHRN8i0p9YgsyCzMS4vyD01zC6lKtSguTEu3MjQyt TI1sDI0AAIrz3iXYGfbovy8xJwU7ZL8oqLUytRiNc_40GDXoHh PF9tQkKook0JTr4yoitzQSLV4R.cQ2.LUxKLkDACr7iEf&GI_ID=). He just looks like a little kid still and most guys at 17 that look like that aren't going to be filling out all that much.

Again, that isn't to say he can't be the exception.... because he could be. But after 115 PA in the US, I think its a little bit early to say that he already is the exception. Watch, hope he continues to do what he has been doing (with a few more walks) and wait.

lollipopcurve
02-21-2011, 01:32 PM
Put it this way, Doug -- my guess is that if you're a scout, you don't recommend Torreyes to your supervisor.

I'm glad the Reds have seen him differently.

dougdirt
02-21-2011, 01:42 PM
Put it this way, Doug -- my guess is that if you're a scout, you don't recommend Torreyes to your supervisor.

I'm glad the Reds have seen him differently.

That isn't true at all. The Reds have over 200 players in the minor league system between the DSL/VSL through Louisville. Each year we see a shuffle of 50+ guys with signings, releases and retirements. You have to fill those teams. A player who shows a major league tool, or even something close to it, especially at 16/17 is going to get recommended. I would venture that Torreyes is at least rocking something similar to that on two fronts right now with his contact/bat control and his defense. That absolutely gets you mentioned to a supervising scout.

I ranked Torreyes among the Top 40 prospects in the entire system. I absolutely would have called my supervisor and provided a full report on a kid like that. It doesn't mean his OFP report wouldn't list below average power though because of his size/projectability.

There is a difference between being cautious on the future view of a player and writing him off. You still seem to believe that the two things are the same.

membengal
02-21-2011, 06:13 PM
I'll chime in with just a quick thought. Simply naming short players that have had success is great to prove the point that short players CAN have success in the major leagues, but it does not provide any evidence that it is LIKELY that a short player will succeed.

Duh. Of course it doesn't. It was offered as a helpful reminder that dismissive generalizations are not helpful, and that some succeed at that height, evenly wildly succeed. I was hoping for more discussion of Torryes than how tall he is. Scrap and lollipop are trying, but they're being roundly ignored in their efforts to actually discuss the player and what he did on the field last year, as opposed to how he measured as a 17-year-old.

dougdirt
02-21-2011, 06:20 PM
Duh. Of course it doesn't. It was offered as a helpful reminder that dismissive generalizations are not helpful, and that some succeed at that height, evenly wildly succeed. I was hoping for more discussion of Torryes than how tall he is. Scrap is trying, but he's being roundly ignored in his efforts to actually discuss the player and what he did on the field last year, as opposed to how he measured as a 17-year-old.

And again, no one is dismissing him. They are saying its going to be an uphill battle. Big difference.

texasdave
02-21-2011, 06:27 PM
And again, no one is dismissing him. They are saying its going to be an uphill battle. Big difference.

As it is with all players trying to navigate the minor league obtacles and make it to "The Show".

dougdirt
02-21-2011, 06:58 PM
As it is with all players trying to navigate the minor league obtacles and make it to "The Show".

Certainly, but some guys have bigger issues to overcome than others. The 6'4" right hander with the 96 MPH fastball is going to have to overcome less than the 5'6" screwballer. Doesn't mean that Danny Ray couldn't do it, but he had to overcome a lot of things to do it. Things that a 6'4" righty who throws 96 wouldn't have.

Scrap Irony
02-21-2011, 07:39 PM
And again, no one is dismissing him. They are saying its going to be an uphill battle. Big difference.

I suppose I have a hard time seeing why Torreyes is not mentioned at all.

Because of possible size problems? Because he might get the bat knocked out of his hands at a higher level? I grudgingly accept that may be a possibility for a Billy Hamilton, as his power numbers are lacking.

But Torreyes? That argument holds little water.

No one in the Venezuelan League over the past six years has touched the numbers Torreyes put up in 2010. His OPS was the highest by a 17-year-old in the league. It's among the top OPSes the league has ever seen.

I don't care what size he is (and he's listed at 5'10", BTW, and 150 lbs), that's getting it done. His isolated power is not just good for his age, it's remarkably good. (It's much higher, for example, than that of Yorman Rodriguez, Billy Hamilton, Juan Duran, or any 17 or 18-year-old kid the Reds have trotted out in the past five years.)

Sure, you could point to a small sample size, but the kid also got it done in the Arizona League. (Both with power and BA.) His age 17 year is similar enough to the following guys from the five years before:

Mike Trout
Randal Grichuk
Jonathan Garcia
Engel Beltre
Alex Liddi

That's it. He's also the only 2B on that list.

bubbachunk
02-21-2011, 08:13 PM
This topic has gotten so circular, it is not accomplishing anything.

dougdirt
02-22-2011, 01:17 AM
I suppose I have a hard time seeing why Torreyes is not mentioned at all.

Because of possible size problems? Because he might get the bat knocked out of his hands at a higher level? I grudgingly accept that may be a possibility for a Billy Hamilton, as his power numbers are lacking.
Torreyes had a .145 Isolated SLG this season in the US. Billy Hamilton's was .138. Why are Hamilton's lacking, but Torreyes isn't? They are basically interchangable.



No one in the Venezuelan League over the past six years has touched the numbers Torreyes put up in 2010. His OPS was the highest by a 17-year-old in the league. It's among the top OPSes the league has ever seen.
What he did was incredible. The VSL has absolutely no bearing on the future performance of players though. In its history, there is next to no correlation to VSL success to success in the US. The talent levels are all over the place. The pitchers are so far apart in talent level, its not funny. The fields are in rough shape. Defenders are rough. While its nice to see VSL/DSL numbers, they should generally be taken with a huge grain of salt. What Torreyes did in the AZL is 1000 times more important than what he did in the VSL. While he was there, he showed outstanding contact ability and solid pop for a middle infielder.



I don't care what size he is (and he's listed at 5'10", BTW, and 150 lbs), that's getting it done. His isolated power is not just good for his age, it's remarkably good. (It's much higher, for example, than that of Yorman Rodriguez, Billy Hamilton, Juan Duran, or any 17 or 18-year-old kid the Reds have trotted out in the past five years.)
I don't care what he is listed at.... last season, he wasn't that tall or that heavy. Juan Duran should never have his power compared to Ronald Torreyes. It isn't in the same conversation, story or trilogy.



Sure, you could point to a small sample size, but the kid also got it done in the Arizona League. (Both with power and BA.) His age 17 year is similar enough to the following guys from the five years before:

Mike Trout
Randal Grichuk
Jonathan Garcia
Engel Beltre
Alex Liddi

That's it. He's also the only 2B on that list.
And Elizardo Ramirez once obliterated rookie ball too with a 1.10 ERA, a 0.67 WHIP and 73 walks with 2 walks. Numbers in rookie ball can tell us a whole lot, or they can tell us absolutely nothing. For every Joey Votto and Hanley Ramirez who hit very well in rookie ball as a teenager and go on to stardom, there is a Garrett Guzman, Tony Blanco (former Red hit .384/.442/.662 as an 18 year old with 13 HR's that season) or Will Smith who go on to nothing (or in Blanco's case, obliterating the Japanese pro league 9 years later).

Scrap Irony
02-22-2011, 10:02 AM
Those numbers mixed with positive scouting reports do mean something, though. And, of the scouts who've seen him, almost all come back pretty darn positive.

An example of this can be seen in BA's own report:

Generously listed at 5-foot-10, Torreyes isn't the toolsiest guy, but he runs well and has remarkable feel for hitting. Torreyes hit .390/.468/.606 in 284 plate appearances with 11 strikeouts (no, not a typo) in the Venezuelan Summer League before the Reds brought him to Arizona a couple of weeks ago. He hasn't slowed down, hitting .372/.426/.558 with three strikeouts in 47 PAs, leaving AZL observers with some puzzled looks on their faces after showing them surprising power for a player his size

BA praised his hitting tool, his speed, and his power. (This in itself should allay most doubter's concerns about pop, but I digress.) Other scouts, Red officials, and coaches have insisted his defense is outstanding. (Plus, I believe.) So, for those keeping score at home, that's four of the five tools that have been praised, yet he's not toolsy?

Why?

I think it's largely because of his stature. You don't think he's toolsy because he doesn't look toolsy. (doug's two pictures in this very thread seen to argue the same bias. In essence, he's too small to hit with the power he's already hitting with.)

In the end, it really doesn't matter what a bunch of amateur posters think of when discussing a prospect. I realize, after having argued with doug for five years on this site, his opinion is set in stone and won't change no matter how persuasively I argue. It's largely the same for me.

Shrug.

But it's the bias that's troubling. Both Torreyes and Hamilton have been downgraded as prospects because of their stature. Only because of stature, really, as the production, pedigree, and scouting reports all seem to agree that each player has some really solid tools. Now, maybe they will flame out-- most phenoms do-- but clinging to a blind obedience (i.e., physicality) would miss real talents like Pedroia (who was smaller than Torreyes at the same age), Furcal (also smaller), Roberts, and Tejada. And, like those guys (and 99% of all males across the world), both Hamilton and Torreyes are likely to get bigger than they are currently.

Scrap Irony
02-22-2011, 10:08 AM
Torreyes had a .145 Isolated SLG this season in the US. Billy Hamilton's was .138. Why are Hamilton's lacking, but Torreyes isn't? They are basically interchangable.

You're right. The questions of Hamilton's power are poor ones as well. That .138 ISO would have ranked 9th among second basemen in all of mlb.

You have alleviated my concerns about Hamilton's power.

Thanks.

lollipopcurve
02-22-2011, 10:11 AM
Put it this way -- it's possible Torreyes is a top-shelf 2B prospect. Last I heard, every team fields a second baseman. It's one of those middle of the diamond positions. Kinda important. You can OPS and ISO and break out the scales all you want, but we're talking about a middle infielder here, and we're talking about baseball, not fantasy baseball.

membengal
02-22-2011, 12:20 PM
I internet high five scrap and lollipop's posts. And internet fist bump. Awkwardly, of course.

mth123
02-22-2011, 12:55 PM
If Torreyes were 6-2 and 185, I'd still find it hard to get too worked up about any offensive stats in VZL or AZL. While we're at it, don't get too carried away by offensive stats accumulated at Billings.

These guys showed some promise and that is great. They win the right to come back and give it a shot at the next level. I love that the scouts have some praise for tools, but the same guys are urging caution about size. I love the fact that he looks like a plus defender at 2B and he can run. Same with Hamilton, but the hitting stats aren't so meaningful IMO. Lets see how they do in full season ball where the opposing talent is a little more evenly matched over the course of a year.

At this point tools get the most weight in projecting, but physical attributes are more important than the offensive stats IMO.

medford
02-22-2011, 03:26 PM
How much did the Reds sign him for in comparision to other players on the international market? I'm not sure how much credit the reds get for "ignoring the hight profile scouting" in his case, unless you tell me he signed for a decent chunk more than your average run of the mill "lets throw something at this guy w/ some decent tools, stick him in he VSL league for a season or 2 and see if he develops enough to make it to the states" contract. In other words, the Reds may have just gotten lucky taking a flyer on a kid they weren't even sure would make it to the states.

FWIW, I don't think there's anything wrong w/ Doug's approach. Generalities and profiling can tell you a lot about the odds of a prospect making it. Odds are Juan Duran isn't going to make it, he's just too tall to consistantly make solid contact. However, Corey Hart has shown that a 6'-8" dude has a chance to make an impact in the shown one day, which is why you take a chance on Juan wearing his sun glasses as night. I'm sure there is a ton of "little" guys w/ decent hitting tools that never progress past AA, but obviously some do, so you give that guy a chance as well.

Evaluating prospects is such an inexact science. Basically gather all the info you can, give them the best coaching you can, and hope everything comes together. There's a reason they have so many minor league teams. If it was more exact, they'd just put together a AA & AAA team and bring a player up after a season or 2, if not right out of the draft. However, since the fail rate is so high, they have to fill up teams in High A, Low A, 2 rookie level teams, a VSL team and a DSL team. Take as many different prospect types that they think "have a chance" and hope 1 or 2 progress up the majors a season. Get 1 or 2 legit major leaguers a year, and you're minor league system is a success.

dougdirt
02-23-2011, 01:11 AM
You're right. The questions of Hamilton's power are poor ones as well. That .138 ISO would have ranked 9th among second basemen in all of mlb.

You have alleviated my concerns about Hamilton's power.

Thanks.

The two leagues those two guys played in are among the most hitter friendly in all of baseball too....

membengal
03-08-2011, 08:30 PM
Torreyes, whatever he weighs, played in the "A" game today and doubled.

Superdude
03-08-2011, 11:53 PM
Was at the game today. Torreyes got plenty of laughs when he took to the on deck circle, but he shut that up pretty quick. He roped the first pitch foul and then unloaded one off the left center wall a few pitches later. He's REALLY small and I'm still skeptical about his chances moving forward, but he's certainly fun to watch.

GoReds
03-09-2011, 07:30 AM
Joe Morgan is listed in Baseball Reference as being 5'7", 160lbs.

If Torryes could add a few pounds of muscle as he gets older, I think he'd be fine. My only concern would be how he would hold up over 162 games.

lollipopcurve
03-09-2011, 08:28 AM
If Torryes could add a few pounds of muscle as he gets older, I think he'd be fine.

He's 18. It'll happen.

Scrap Irony
03-09-2011, 01:06 PM
According to the CDC, 98% of all males add between 2 and 6 percentage points of BMI to their frame from age 18 to 20. Those 98% with a height between 5'8" and 5'10" add approximately four to six percentage points of BMI within two years.

If he's average and his weight is indeed around 135 lbs. right now, Torreyes would fill out to around 5'10, 155-175 lbs. by age 20.

This study was conducted in 2000, so perhaps some things have changed since then.

In other words, he'd be similar to Dustin Pedroia, Rafael Furcal, and Omar Vizquel in body type. Not big by any stretch of the imagination, but not lilliputian either.

Mario-Rijo
03-09-2011, 04:39 PM
According to the CDC, 98% of all males add between 2 and 6 percentage points of BMI to their frame from age 18 to 20. Those 98% with a height between 5'8" and 5'10" add approximately four to six percentage points of BMI within two years.

If he's average and his weight is indeed around 135 lbs. right now, Torreyes would fill out to around 5'10, 155-175 lbs. by age 20.

This study was conducted in 2000, so perhaps some things have changed since then.

In other words, he'd be similar to Dustin Pedroia, Rafael Furcal, and Omar Vizquel in body type. Not big by any stretch of the imagination, but not lilliputian either.

:clap:

What other baseball board can one go to where someone can reference the CDC to back up a point? Bravo Sir, quite good.

dougdirt
03-09-2011, 06:24 PM
According to the CDC, 98% of all males add between 2 and 6 percentage points of BMI to their frame from age 18 to 20. Those 98% with a height between 5'8" and 5'10" add approximately four to six percentage points of BMI within two years.

If he's average and his weight is indeed around 135 lbs. right now, Torreyes would fill out to around 5'10, 155-175 lbs. by age 20.

This study was conducted in 2000, so perhaps some things have changed since then.

In other words, he'd be similar to Dustin Pedroia, Rafael Furcal, and Omar Vizquel in body type. Not big by any stretch of the imagination, but not lilliputian either.

My question is, how many males at that age are as slight a frame as Torreyes is and how many of those guys were able to do that? I am not a doctor, and I don't pretend to be one.... but not everyone is the same and guys with slight frames like that (and that of say, Billy Hamilton) aren't prone to adding such weight from what I have seen in the minor leagues after following them for a while.

membengal
03-09-2011, 07:56 PM
It's clear torreyes is bulemic. Bummer.

dougdirt
03-09-2011, 08:22 PM
It's clear torreyes is bulemic. Bummer.

It is?

membengal
03-09-2011, 08:52 PM
It is?

Listening to you it is. You are already as relentlessly one-note on this as the Stubbs detractors were.

dougdirt
03-09-2011, 09:03 PM
Listening to you it is. You are already as relentlessly one-note on this as the Stubbs detractors were.

I just think its a bit of a stretch to assume that he is going to put on weight because he is young. The amount of people on this board who have seen him in person can be counted on one hand. Given his frame, its not a given that he is going to be able to put on weight at all. But it seems that quite a few think he is going to be able to pack on 15-25 pounds easily over the next few years. Not everyone can do it. Not everyone has a frame that is conducive to it. Torreyes seems to be a guy who has a very tiny frame to work on.

membengal
03-09-2011, 09:12 PM
What's a stretch, Doug, is to assume, nay, darn near state with certainty like you have been doing, that Torreyes will be in the roughly 2% of males who do NOT put on that kind of weight these years. That would be the one-note stuff from you that has already grown old. Like I said, ironically, on this one, you have made yourself into the kind of poster invested in a position with regard to a prospect much like the Stubbs detractors were. Frankly, it's not a good look for you.

Scrap Irony
03-09-2011, 09:28 PM
My question is, how many males at that age are as slight a frame as Torreyes is and how many of those guys were able to do that? I am not a doctor, and I don't pretend to be one.... but not everyone is the same and guys with slight frames like that (and that of say, Billy Hamilton) aren't prone to adding such weight from what I have seen in the minor leagues after following them for a while.


According to the US Army, boys between the ages of 18 and 20 gain somewhere between 10 and 15% of their 18-year-old weight by age 20. For Torreyes, that'd be somewhere between 13 and 30 lbs, depending on what you think Torreyes weighs now and how much he'll gain as he matures. (According to the CDC, it matters not at all whether he's considered small-, medium-, or large-framed. The percentage is virtually the same at those ages.)

That would make him between 5'8" and 5'10" (or so) and 149 - 180 lbs. by age 20.

Interestingly, men then gain another 10 to 15% by age 29, then another 10 - 15% between 30 and "old age". (Large-framed men gain more as they age; small framed men gain considerably less.)

lollipopcurve
03-09-2011, 09:37 PM
Let's recall what Delino Deshields said about Torreyes: "He's a little guy, but he doesn't hit like a little guy."

I don't see that changing as he matures.

dougdirt
03-09-2011, 09:45 PM
According to the US Army, boys between the ages of 18 and 20 gain somewhere between 10 and 15% of their 18-year-old weight by age 20. For Torreyes, that'd be somewhere between 13 and 30 lbs, depending on what you think Torreyes weighs now and how much he'll gain as he matures. (According to the CDC, it matters not at all whether he's considered small-, medium-, or large-framed. The percentage is virtually the same at those ages.)

That would make him between 5'8" and 5'10" (or so) and 149 - 180 lbs. by age 20.

Interestingly, men then gain another 10 to 15% by age 29, then another 10 - 15% between 30 and "old age". (Large-framed men gain more as they age; small framed men gain considerably less.)

That doesn't really address the question I asked though. What do guys in that height range who weight 135-145 pounds typically gain? Having that group thrown in with the guys who are 5'10 and 165-175 at 18 doesn't tell me much, because the two body types are drastically different.

Lollipop, you are right.... but, hitting singles/doubles isn't the same as hitting home runs. Guys his size aren't going to be doing much of that and we know its pretty tough to be a successful hitter without some semblance of HR power unless they are one of those rare guys who simply don't swing and miss. So far at least, Torreyes shows a very high contact rate. So he may not have to hit the ball over the fence.

dougdirt
03-09-2011, 09:49 PM
What's a stretch, Doug, is to assume, nay, darn near state with certainty like you have been doing, that Torreyes will be in the roughly 2% of males who do NOT put on that kind of weight these years. That would be the one-note stuff from you that has already grown old. Like I said, ironically, on this one, you have made yourself into the kind of poster invested in a position with regard to a prospect much like the Stubbs detractors were. Frankly, it's not a good look for you.

I think you are overlooking the fact that Torreyes may already be in a lower end % of all 18 year olds given his current size. What the typical 18 year old does in terms of weight gain doesn't mean much because being a 5'10" and 140 pound 18 year old isn't typical.

Go look at pictures of him. Look at his forearms. He is very small framed. I hope he can put on the weight.... but nothing I see when looking at him suggests its going to happen at a similar rate to what a "typical person his age does" because he isn't the typical size of someone his age.

redsof72
03-09-2011, 09:53 PM
He is not real skinny but he does have a very small build and he looks even younger than he is, which is 18. If you put him on a high school freshman team, he would fit in physically. He is not going to be a real muscular guy who bench presses twice his weight. God just did not give him that kind of body. For me, his ability to add weight is not that much of a concern right now. Other things are going to be sorted out first.

I saw him play six games last season and had no particular expectations at the outset, other than the fact that he was moved up to Dayton along with Sammy Diaz and David Vidal off the AZL team, basically because Dayton had to put nine players on the field, the last week of the season, the Billings team was in the playoff hunt, and they had to send SOMEONE to Dayton. I did not expect much.

Defensively, what I saw absolutely stunned me. The very first game, he was making plays to his left and right, diving all over the field, throwing guys out from the ground, doing things at second base that I had not seen in that league in years. I would say it was one of the best defensive weeks I have seen out of a player at any level in 20 years.

Offensively, the sample size was too small. He hit in the VSL, which means almost nothing. He hit in the AZL, which means a little but not too much (Humberto Sosa hit .300 at that level and got skipped to Dayton and was overmatched). I have no idea if he will hit. If he does come to Dayton this year, he might hit .220, he might hit .330.

I know this: there is a song in the wind that the Reds really want to win in Dayton this season, and if that is true, there are people who will push for Torreyes to be assigned to Dayton. I have heard it said that if you really want to win, you will put Torreyes there.

Interesting guy for a player that absolutely came out of nowhere. Basically, that week in Dayton got him on the Baseball America Reds top 30 prospect list. He would not have had the exposure otherwise.

Scrap Irony
03-09-2011, 09:55 PM
I think you are overlooking the fact that Torreyes may already be in a lower end % of all 18 year olds given his current size. What the typical 18 year old does in terms of weight gain doesn't mean much because being a 5'10" and 140 pound 18 year old isn't typical.

Go look at pictures of him. Look at his forearms. He is very small framed. I hope he can put on the weight.... but nothing I see when looking at him suggests its going to happen at a similar rate to what a "typical person his age does" because he isn't the typical size of someone his age.

EDIT: Old data (The Met Life actuary tables are from 1979 and rife with errors.) Better numbers below)

The optimum weight for a 5'10" 18-year-old male is 132-145 lbs. (According to the MetLife actuary tables at halls.md) And, again, according to health.org and the CDC, it really doesn't matter what your frame is, you're going to gain somewhere between 10 and 15% of your body weight between 18 and 20.

I stated that earlier, but you either ignored it or didn't read it.

redsof72
03-09-2011, 09:59 PM
I am not taking a side in this argument except to say that Torreyes is not 5'10." The Reds list him at 5'10". Baseball America, fully aware that the Reds are listing him at 5'10", elected to list him at 5'7" in their prospect handbook based on eyewitness accounts. Before that was published, I posted on this site that he was much smaller than 5'10".

dougdirt
03-09-2011, 10:02 PM
The optimum weight for a 5'10" 18-year-old male is 132-145 lbs. (According to the MetLife actuary tables at halls.md) And, again, according to health.org and the CDC, it really doesn't matter what your frame is, you're going to gain somewhere between 10 and 15% of your body weight between 18 and 20.

I stated that earlier, but you either ignored it or didn't read it.
Must have missed that part.... but I simply can't believe that the optimum weight for a 5'10" 18 year old male is 132-140 pounds. Torreyes is in that range and he is a TINY dude and I don't mean for a professional athlete either. Just looking at pictures of him, I just can't see him adding 15 pounds of good weight to that frame. That is a large uptick in size on that small of a frame.

Scrap Irony
03-09-2011, 10:08 PM
I am not taking a side in this argument except to say that Torreyes is not 5'10." The Reds list him at 5'10". Baseball America, fully aware that the Reds are listing him at 5'10", elected to list him at 5'7" in their prospect handbook based on eyewitness accounts. Before that was published, I posted on this site that he was much smaller than 5'10".

Well, crap.

There goes all that math.

Too, as I read further, the Met Life actuary tables are from 1979. Both men and women are heavier now.

After plugging in his 5' 7" height, the ideal weight, according to hall.md is 143 lbs. The medical recommendation is 121 - 160 lbs.

The 10-15% of your total weight gained between 18 and 20 is still valid, however. That would make Torreyes likely to be somewhere between 154 and 162 lbs.

lollipopcurve
03-09-2011, 10:10 PM
Lollipop, you are right.... but, hitting singles/doubles isn't the same as hitting home runs. Guys his size aren't going to be doing much of that and we know its pretty tough to be a successful hitter without some semblance of HR power unless they are one of those rare guys who simply don't swing and miss. So far at least, Torreyes shows a very high contact rate. So he may not have to hit the ball over the fence.

He's a 2nd baseman who plays excellent defense. So long as he's a tough out and can mix in some EBHs, there will be a place for him all the way up the ladder. There's a ways to go, but I'm not betting against him at this point.

And as I've said before, I like that the Reds are not shying away from "undersized" players, whether they be position players or pitchers. There's a lot more to the game than measurables.

redsof72
03-09-2011, 10:17 PM
Benzinger said last year, after pitching BP to Torreyes for a week, that if he played a full season at the size he was at last year (a size that Benzinger had jokingly compared to a jockey), he would hit 8-10 home runs. That tells you maybe something about what DeShields was getting at.

Scrap Irony
03-09-2011, 10:19 PM
I know this: there is a song in the wind that the Reds really want to win in Dayton this season, and if that is true, there are people who will push for Torreyes to be assigned to Dayton. I have heard it said that if you really want to win, you will put Torreyes there.

That tells me pretty much all I need to know about how highly the Reds value him and how highly we should as amateur prospect posters.

dougdirt
03-09-2011, 10:33 PM
He's a 2nd baseman who plays excellent defense. So long as he's a tough out and can mix in some EBHs, there will be a place for him all the way up the ladder. There's a ways to go, but I'm not betting against him at this point.

And as I've said before, I like that the Reds are not shying away from "undersized" players, whether they be position players or pitchers. There's a lot more to the game than measurables.

Certainly there is.... and I never said there wasn't. But measurables tend to mean things in sports. Not always, but there aren't a lot of exceptions to the rules and expecting someone to be is often going to lead to disappointment. With that said, Torreyes does two things very well so far that work in his favor. He puts the bat on the ball at an incredibly high rate. And he plays outstanding defense.

redsof72
03-09-2011, 10:34 PM
I would like to watch a game sometime with Rojas at short and Torreyes at second. That would be something to see. That middle infield would knock half a run off every pitcher's ERA.

Drugs Delaney
03-10-2011, 02:34 AM
As I mentioned in another thread, I've got a good feeling about this kid. If he's a plus defender, has crazy high contact rate, hits doubles and for average, etc. he doesn't have to hit double digit home runs to be an asset.

OnBaseMachine
03-10-2011, 12:23 PM
SI's Joe Lemire was tweeting about Torreyes earlier this morning:

Re: 5'10/150 Ronald Torreyes, Baker said, "You don't hit .370 by mistake." #Reds 18 y.o. 2B prospect crushed low minors http://bit.ly/gsZvpr

Baker added, re: Torreyes, "God put talent in a whole lot of different body types." #reds

http://twitter.com/SI_JoeLemire

Sea Ray
03-10-2011, 12:37 PM
Who cares about who can better play Miss Cleo in projecting Ronald Torreyes? Just let him play and see what happens. It's not like they have a big bonus to consider or anything

medford
03-10-2011, 01:08 PM
One question, is it fair to compare the average 18-20 yr old male to Torreyes? Most 18-20 yr old males have put their athletic careers (if they even had one) behind them when HS ends. Most 18-20 yr old males are not seriously concerned about strength training, nor keeping their body in peak physical form. Torreyes' career is going to be made by getting his body in peak physical condition to handle the rigors of an extended baseball season and all the athletic ability that requires.

OnBaseMachine
03-10-2011, 02:00 PM
From Hal McCoy:


“They told me he could hit,” said Baker. “I sent him up there to see if he could hit. And he can hit. You don’t hit .370 by mistake. He has a good approach.”

Actually Torreyes hit .390 last year in 67 games for the Venezuelan Reds Rookie League team. His first full year as a pro last year ended with a .370 average - .240 in only six games last year for the Class A Dayton Dragons, where he’ll probably start this season.



http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2011/03/10/building_a_winner_so_they_will.html?cxtype=feedbot

nate1213
03-14-2011, 04:30 PM
How fast is Torreyes? Does he have above average speed? And how does he compare defensively to someone like Hamilton?

_Sir_Charles_
03-15-2011, 08:41 AM
How fast is Torreyes? Does he have above average speed? And how does he compare defensively to someone like Hamilton?

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110314&content_id=16945370&vkey=news_t459&fext=.jsp&sid=t459

This article has some nice info regarding Torreyes. Including some glowing commentary about his defense. We all know about the stick, but apparently the leather is even BETTER.

nate1213
03-16-2011, 11:48 PM
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110314&content_id=16945370&vkey=news_t459&fext=.jsp&sid=t459

This article has some nice info regarding Torreyes. Including some glowing commentary about his defense. We all know about the stick, but apparently the leather is even BETTER.

Thats awesome, and thanks for the link. If that is true, and he can add a little height and weight, we might be solid up the middle with Torreyes and Hamilton awhile. Love this depth.

Allenwilliam
03-18-2011, 01:40 AM
He is a very good player. I just love to watch him play. Thanks for this stats.

corkedbat
03-18-2011, 03:23 PM
He is a very good player. I just love to watch him play. Thanks for this stats.

We've got quite a few solid MI prspects that will be coming into their own in the next few years. Toreyes is becoming a sentimental favorite for me. He's certainly not a sure thing, but I'd love to see he and Hamilton at second and short by 2013 or 14 batting at the top of the order. I'm also intrigued by Rodriguez and Puckett at second.

OnBaseMachine
03-19-2011, 03:23 PM
From John Fay:


Doran is also high Ronald Torreyes, the 18-year-old who hit .370 last year.

“He squares the ball as consistently as anyone we have,” Doran said.



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2011/03/19/the-legend-of-billy-the-kid/

redsof72
03-19-2011, 05:36 PM
Torreyes is playing in the big league game today, and has played in several this spring, which is a somewhat unusual deal for a guy who has played in six games above Rookie ball.

I am hearing, however, that the plan may be for him to start the year in extended. Devin Lohman, a third round pick, is in front of him at second base. The thought was that Lohman might play third, but David Vidal is going to get the everyday job at third in Dayton, and they want Torreyes playing everyday so he may stay in Goodyear, at least to start. Still a couple of weeks for things to get decided.

bellhead
03-24-2011, 07:55 AM
Kinda sounds like extended spring training for a while and then on to Billings around June if no injuries pop up in Dayton or Bakersfield.

do you guys agree?

_Sir_Charles_
04-14-2011, 12:40 PM
Anybody know where Torreyes is? He's not listed on any of the MiLB rosters.

TOBTTReds
04-14-2011, 02:11 PM
Anybody know where Torreyes is? He's not listed on any of the MiLB rosters.

Extended spring I'm assuming.

billy bob
04-14-2011, 02:38 PM
Looks like its about time to give him a shot at the 2nd base job in Dayton.

mace
04-14-2011, 02:48 PM
Looks like its about time to give him a shot at the 2nd base job in Dayton.

Was thinking the same thing. I know they want to give Devin Lohman a shot, but come on, he's 1 for 19 and the team is profoundly needy at the plate. Lohman doesn't have to be put to pasture. Hamilton and Torreyes, small as they are, should probably be protected a bit. Plus, there's the DH.

dougdirt
04-14-2011, 04:13 PM
Was thinking the same thing. I know they want to give Devin Lohman a shot, but come on, he's 1 for 19 and the team is profoundly needy at the plate. Lohman doesn't have to be put to pasture. Hamilton and Torreyes, small as they are, should probably be protected a bit. Plus, there's the DH.

It has been a week. If Lohman had been 1-19 in the middle of June, hardly anyone notices. He apparently hit well all spring. I am not high on Lohman, but give the guy more than 7 games to "lose" his job.

mace
04-14-2011, 04:58 PM
It has been a week. If Lohman had been 1-19 in the middle of June, hardly anyone notices. He apparently hit well all spring. I am not high on Lohman, but give the guy more than 7 games to "lose" his job.

It's not a Lohman thing, per se. More than that, it's a team thing (which, by extension, is an organizational issue) and a Torreyes thing. Plus, as I pointed out, there'd still be plenty of looks for Lohman.

That said, I can agree that it might be a little hasty at this early juncture. But it's definitely something to be considering; and soon. Just like there has been a shine on the Reds' fast start, the initial troubles at Dayton and especially Carolina can have the opposite effect. No sense in letting the season get away early, if it can be helped. Just like a 1-for-19 stretch might not be noticed if it were in June, it might not be noticed, either, if the Dragons were 5-2. But they're 2-5, coming off a series in which they had no hits in one game and three in another.

11larkin11
04-14-2011, 08:17 PM
You promote within in the minors due to individual ability or injuires, not team need.

mace
04-15-2011, 10:26 AM
You promote within in the minors due to individual ability or injuires, not team need.

It's been noted/observed several times that the Reds are very conscious this year of putting out a good, watchable product in Dayton. The current team satisfies the watchable part of that, with Hamilton and Rodriguez, but that will only go so far if the team is as terrible as it has been the last couple years.

On top of that, it seems like everyone who saw Torreyes in his brief fling in Dayton last year was very impressed and had no doubt that he belonged at that level. I'm not necessarily an advocate of rushing him, or anybody; it just seems like, in this case, the signs are all pointing in that direction. Especially if the current situation lingers for another week or ten days.

redsof72
04-15-2011, 12:37 PM
The dollar sign is always the final determination. They gave Lohman a ton of money. He has to play. You get serious internal problems when the player development people don't play a guy that the scouting staff put their reputation on the line for.

There are many cases in the minor leagues of players moving due to need, but in this case, that will not trump the $363,000 that they gave Lohman. He will play until something changes somewhere. If Vidal doesn't hit, it is possible that Lohman would move to third and Torreyes would come in. But it is too early even for that.

One player is not going to fix everything. The team is last in the league in batting, pitching, and fielding.

_Sir_Charles_
05-23-2011, 01:45 PM
Okay, does ANYBODY know where Torreyes is? He's STILL not on any MiLB roster. Someone mentioned extended spring training...but that CAN'T still be going on, can it? I'm really puzzled by his absence. I'd love an update if anybody has any info regarding him.

The DARK
05-23-2011, 01:54 PM
Okay, does ANYBODY know where Torreyes is? He's STILL not on any MiLB roster. Someone mentioned extended spring training...but that CAN'T still be going on, can it? I'm really puzzled by his absence. I'd love an update if anybody has any info regarding him.

It feels strange to me as well. We're more than a quarter of the way through the season... why is one of our top prospects being denied crucial minor league time?

billy bob
05-23-2011, 01:55 PM
Yes he is in EST until like June 20th then he will be going to Billings

_Sir_Charles_
05-23-2011, 01:57 PM
Yes he is in EST until like June 20th then he will be going to Billings

Wow. I had no clue extended spring training ran THAT long? Sheesh!

Thanks for the update billy bob. I appreciate it.

11larkin11
05-23-2011, 01:57 PM
It feels strange to me as well. We're more than a quarter of the way through the season... why is one of our top prospects being denied crucial minor league time?

First off, I wouldn't classify him as one of our top prospects. We know very little about him, besides his numbers in one year in Rookie Ball and one report saying he played a solid second base.

Its most likely they feel he needs more seasoning. He's played ONE year of pro ball, and is 18 years old. He'll most likely be in Billlings, where he skipped last year for a short stint in Dayton.

The DARK
05-23-2011, 02:17 PM
First off, I wouldn't classify him as one of our top prospects. We know very little about him, besides his numbers in one year in Rookie Ball and one report saying he played a solid second base.

Its most likely they feel he needs more seasoning. He's played ONE year of pro ball, and is 18 years old. He'll most likely be in Billlings, where he skipped last year for a short stint in Dayton.

I gotcha, thanks. I wasn't aware ESP went on that long either.

dougdirt
05-23-2011, 04:07 PM
Torreyes is 18 years old. How many 18 year olds are playing full season baseball? 5? It isn't a big deal at all that he isn't playing right now.

redsof72
05-25-2011, 01:19 AM
Torreyes is a middle infielder. They already have middle infielders in Dayton who have to play everyday. If you took the money out of the equation and just played your best team, you would call Torreyes up to Dayton, play him at short, and move Hamilton to second. But it doesn't work that way. If it did, Yorman would be in Goodyear right now.

When they agree to give a guy $365,000 or whatever they gave Lohman, you are making a commitment that you are going to play the player until he proves he can't play. You are making that commitment to your scouting department. That is the way the thing works.

Yes, at some point, Lohman has to start to show something. The scout who signed him is sure hoping so, too.

Benihana
05-25-2011, 08:24 AM
Torreyes is a middle infielder. They already have middle infielders in Dayton who have to play everyday. If you took the money out of the equation and just played your best team, you would call Torreyes up to Dayton, play him at short, and move Hamilton to second. But it doesn't work that way. If it did, Yorman would be in Goodyear right now.

When they agree to give a guy $365,000 or whatever they gave Lohman, you are making a commitment that you are going to play the player until he proves he can't play. You are making that commitment to your scouting department. That is the way the thing works.

Yes, at some point, Lohman has to start to show something. The scout who signed him is sure hoping so, too.

I didn't like the Lohman pick at the time, and it's not looking too good now.

72, you really think Torreyes plays SS over Hamilton? I always assumed it would be the other way around (with Torreyes at 2B).

redsof72
05-25-2011, 11:37 AM
The comment that Torreyes would play short and Hamilton at second was based on what would be the best defensive infield on May 25, 2011. I am not ready to say that this would be the best in the long run, although it may be.

For those who have seen Hamilton defensively, you have seen what I have seen and written about. For those who have not, here are the basics:

He will make plays that virtually no other shortstop in pro ball will make. He made a play Thursday night on a fly ball to left that no shortstop ever makes, period, in which he caught a looper on a spot on the field that would be described as where the left fielder might play if he was playing shallow.

He has 18 errors in 42 games and a fielding percentage of under .900. His hands look iffy. He struggles to react to any kind of tricky hop. He has a tendency to drop his elbow on throws which leads to a submarine style throw to first and causes the ball to go high. Virtually all of his throwing errors (maybe 7 or 8 of his errors) are because of this mechanical problem. They are trying to get him to understand the importance of working on the correct throwing technique (see recent 3-day "break"). I do believe he can develop a good work ethic once he gains some maturity and figures out what it means to have to work to get better. He is a good kid who wants to do the right things.

11larkin11
07-18-2011, 12:21 AM
Boy, I can't wait until Torreyes advances and we can see his swing-and-miss percentage. I haven't seen him in person, but his eye-poppingly low K numbers seems like he is Starlin Castro, without the backwards K's.

membengal
07-21-2011, 09:35 AM
Perusing the comments ar redreporter to their minors wrap for the day, it was noted that ben badler from or affiliated with BA recently opined that torreyes is the best prospect in dayton. For what its worth.

dougdirt
07-21-2011, 09:40 AM
Perusing the comments ar redreporter to their minors wrap for the day, it was noted that ben badler from or affiliated with BA recently opined that torreyes is the best prospect in dayton. For what its worth.

He is certainly the best player on the team right now. I am positive that I wouldn't rank him ahead of Corcino or Yorman Rodriguez right now. Also about 95% sure that I wouldn't rank him above Billy Hamilton either.

Brutus
07-21-2011, 06:12 PM
He is certainly the best player on the team right now. I am positive that I wouldn't rank him ahead of Corcino or Yorman Rodriguez right now. Also about 95% sure that I wouldn't rank him above Billy Hamilton either.

In terms of a futures grade, that is completely logical. But in terms of current grade, yeah I'm having a hard time favoring any of them over Torreyes.

mdccclxix
07-21-2011, 06:48 PM
Closest comp for young Midwest league players I could find:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=burrou001sea

Sean Burroughs

mdccclxix
07-21-2011, 06:52 PM
I skipped 2010, but here's this one:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=trout-001mik

Mike Trout

Just going by 18 year olds in the Midwest League with averages above .340 or so.

partisan
07-21-2011, 06:55 PM
He is certainly the best player on the team right now. I am positive that I wouldn't rank him ahead of Corcino or Yorman Rodriguez right now. Also about 95% sure that I wouldn't rank him above Billy Hamilton either.

There's no way I'd put Hamilton above Torreyes. Billy clearly has a much higher ceiling but frankly he just looks silly way too often in the field and the plate for me.

If he learns some plate discipline and how to not throw the ball into the dugout, then he becomes a monster. But until then, Ronald is higher on my list.

Scrap Irony
07-21-2011, 07:28 PM
Trout was among his closest comps in the Rookie Leagues as well.

Let's hope he continues to hit like that kid.

The DARK
07-21-2011, 07:31 PM
Trout was among his closest comps in the Rookie Leagues as well.

Let's hope he continues to hit like that kid.

Meanwhile, Torreyes brings his plus defense to a MI position. If he keeps up his production, he could be scary good.

dougdirt
07-21-2011, 07:33 PM
The problem with comps to Trout or Burroughs is that those guys were much bigger people. Statistical comps are nice, but they only go so far.

dougdirt
07-21-2011, 07:35 PM
There's no way I'd put Hamilton above Torreyes. Billy clearly has a much higher ceiling but frankly he just looks silly way too often in the field and the plate for me.

If he learns some plate discipline and how to not throw the ball into the dugout, then he becomes a monster. But until then, Ronald is higher on my list.

I don't worry about his throwing. He will be fine in time. I just see more upside with Hamilton, enough that his current skillset being worse is offset. Hamilton is a special type of defender. He gets to baseball that good shortstops only dream about. I have seen enough flashes at the plate to know he is capable of being a solid offensive guy if he finds more consistency.

Scrap Irony
07-21-2011, 08:10 PM
I understand what you're saying, doug. But, again, almost all males (98%, in fact) gaing both weight and muscle as they age. Unless he's an extreme outlier, Torryes will gain 20 lbs. or more before he hits the show. (If he hits the show.)

Add to that players like Rafael Furcal (who was smaller than Torreyes at the same age), Dustin Pedroia (who was the same size), and others-- all of whom have had success as major league players-- and your insistence that his size will somehow hold him back seems a bit... inflexible.

dougdirt
07-21-2011, 08:12 PM
I understand what you're saying, doug. But, again, almost all males (98%, in fact) gaing both weight and muscle as they age. Unless he's an extreme outlier, Torryes will gain 20 lbs. or more before he hits the show. (If he hits the show.)

Add to that players like Rafael Furcal (who was smaller than Torreyes at the same age), Dustin Pedroia (who was the same size), and others-- all of whom have had success as major league players-- and your insistence that his size will somehow hold him back seems a bit... inflexible.

Torreyes + 20 pounds is still 40-60 pounds lighter than the guys he was compared to. Still, I don't think he is gong to add 20 pounds or more in the next 4 years.

And I don't think I have ever said his size will hold him back. I am saying that others size may help them improve certain aspects of their game (power) moving forward.

Scrap Irony
07-21-2011, 08:25 PM
As also explained before, male almost always gain another 20 pounds in the next five years, then another over the next five years.

In other words, if he were to age as is normal, Torreyes would be pretty much the exact size of Raphael Furcal and only a couple pounds below Pedroia and others.

I don't know why you would "think" he'd be one of those 1-2% outliers, as the numbers are really in favor of him gaining some significant weight. Body frame has nothing to do with gaining weight. Only metabolism.

And unless you know his doctor or have some kind of crystal ball, I cannot foresee how you might determine he's got the Golden Metabolic Ticket, so to speak.

dougdirt
07-21-2011, 08:29 PM
As also explained before, male almost always gain another 20 pounds in the next five years, then another over the next five years.

In other words, if he were to age as is normal, Torreyes would be pretty much the exact size of Raphael Furcal and only a couple pounds below Pedroia and others.

I don't know why you would "think" he'd be one of those 1-2% outliers, as the numbers are really in favor of him gaining some significant weight. Body frame has nothing to do with gaining weight. Only metabolism.

And unless you know his doctor or have some kind of crystal ball, I cannot foresee how you might determine he's got the Golden Metabolic Ticket, so to speak.

I think it because I have seen him and I just don't see his frame adding that kind of weight. I don't care what 98% of the average person does. He isn't average. He is shorter than average, skinnier than average and a pro athlete who is going to burn more calories per day than an average person will.

bubbachunk
07-21-2011, 08:29 PM
Can we just leave the whole size thing alone and enjoy what this kid is doing?

I am just going to concentrate on what he can do, hit the ball very well and play great D.

NorrisHopper30
07-21-2011, 09:03 PM
4-4 today with a triple.

dougdirt
07-21-2011, 09:05 PM
4-4 today with a triple.

Torreyes has four singles and a walk tonight.

NorrisHopper30
07-21-2011, 09:07 PM
Torreyes has four singles and a walk tonight.

Misread your tweet and thought you said Torreyes hit the triple :laugh:

dougdirt
07-21-2011, 10:10 PM
Ronald Torreyes through 129 PA this season:

7 walks
7 steals
6 strikeouts

That is dumb. In a very good way.

camisadelgolf
07-21-2011, 10:13 PM
Rumor has it that all six strikeouts are examples of the umpires messing up.

Brutus
07-21-2011, 10:23 PM
Rumor has it that all six strikeouts are examples of the umpires messing up.

At that pace, if he has a strike called on him and he doesn't agree with it, I'd be inclined to take his word for it lol

Superdude
07-21-2011, 10:55 PM
I think it because I have seen him and I just don't see his frame adding that kind of weight. I don't care what 98% of the average person does. He isn't average. He is shorter than average, skinnier than average and a pro athlete who is going to burn more calories per day than an average person will.

I just don't think anyone can know this. Sure he burns calories playing baseball, but he should realize this and be eating more. If he's gonna eat like a little kid and not put any work in then yes, he'll probably end up 140 pounds. If he spends his offseasons pounding food and working out, he's probably gonna gain some solid weight over the next few years unless he's some sort of gangly genetic freak.

JayBruceFan
07-21-2011, 10:56 PM
At that pace, if he has a strike called on him and he doesn't agree with it, I'd be inclined to take his word for it lol

I wish we were on facebook so I could "like" this post

Good one :thumbup:

mth123
07-21-2011, 10:59 PM
Ronald Torreyes through 129 PA this season:

7 walks
7 steals
6 strikeouts

That is dumb. In a very good way.

It is good and I really like this kid, but it seems like a guy with such a small zone should walk more. Wonder if he will at some point as he grows up.

Blitz Dorsey
07-21-2011, 11:02 PM
So the kid has a lightning-quick bat which helps make him a great hitter. I'm supposed to get excited about some 5-foot-7 second baseman in low-A ball?

Good, because I sure as hell am!

partisan
07-21-2011, 11:02 PM
It is good and I really like this kid, but it seems like a guy with such a small zone should walk more. Wonder if he will at some point as he grows up.

I think the guy likes making contact. Last time I was at a game he hit more foul balls than the rest of the team combined.

mace
07-21-2011, 11:05 PM
It is good and I really like this kid, but it seems like a guy with such a small zone should walk more. Wonder if he will at some point as he grows up.

Well, it's kind of hard to walk when you line every strike into center field.

Blitz Dorsey
07-21-2011, 11:12 PM
"Liking contact" and tearing it up at the low-A level is one thing. But the point is that a 5-foot-7 player better take some walks if he's going to make it at the MLB level. (And I fully think Torreyes will make it at the MLB level.)

camisadelgolf
07-22-2011, 01:32 AM
I enjoyed this tweet from KLaw:

keithlaw
Yes. Also an inapt one. "@DanielRathman: @keithlaw Is Jeff Keppinger a lazy comp for Ron Torreyes?"

RedsManRick
07-22-2011, 01:45 AM
Jose Altuve seems like the better comp

klw
07-22-2011, 08:56 AM
I'm still working with the premise that Torreyes is Spanish for Sappelt.

nemesis
07-22-2011, 09:38 AM
I'm still working with the premise that Torreyes is Spanish for Sappelt.

Lmao.

If you don't mind I'm using that as my Sig.

Scary good thing about Raton, is he is hitting at the same clip with the same results as he was in the VSL last season.

He should be a month out of HS and he is a AA player already.

Can't wait to see the insane numbers this group puts up in California next year.

dougdirt
07-22-2011, 09:49 AM
Altuve and Sappelt probably aren't good comps for Torreyes. Both guys have much thicker bodies than he does, especially Sappelt who is 5' 9" and 200 pounds. Altuve is a tad shorter and has 25-30 pounds on him.

dougdirt
07-22-2011, 09:53 AM
It is good and I really like this kid, but it seems like a guy with such a small zone should walk more. Wonder if he will at some point as he grows up.

The problem with this though is that when he gets a strike, he is hitting it. It is tough to draw walks when your contact rate on balls you swing at is probably 95% or higher. But I don't care if he walks 20 times a season if he is only striking out 18 times a season.

Torreyes gets the strikezone pretty well from what I have seen. He isn't walking much because when he gets a pitch to hit, he is hitting it. When he doesn't get a pitch to hit, he walks to first base. Guys are throwing him lots of strikes at this point though.

bellhead
07-22-2011, 10:05 AM
Lmao.

If you don't mind I'm using that as my Sig.

Scary good thing about Raton, is he is hitting at the same clip with the same results as he was in the VSL last season.

He should be a month out of HS and he is a AA player already.

Can't wait to see the insane numbers this group puts up in California next year.

Heck Yea!!!

Dayton is supposed to be a pitchers league compared to Cali:D

Shield said last night Dayton may have the best 1-2 since he was there in 88 with Hamilton and Raton...

RedsManRick
07-22-2011, 01:04 PM
I was trying to think of other players in the majors with similar skill sets. So I went and looked for guys since 1990 who, in at least 2500 PA, sustained a K% and BB% south of 10%. (Jeff Keppinger fell short on the PA, FWIW). I was surprised by the variety.

You've got all around great hitters like Nomar, Molitor, Pedroia and Ripken. You've got the speedy guys like Ichiro, Eric Young, Juan Pierre and Lance Johnson. You've got the slap-hitters without elite speed like Gwynn, Kendall, and Vizquel (and Keppinger...). And you've got a group of guys who just plain stink and couldn't do much else but make contact and play defense, like Guillen, Neifi, Rey Sanchez and Jose Lind.

Seems that Torreyes would go in that last group. Most of those guys were fast early in their careers, but fell off fairly quickly from a speed perspective. Perhaps not surprisingly, most of these guy play up the middle.

I think that guys with big power tend to miss the BB% cutoff, because they'll get pitched around more often. Vlad just missed the K% cutoff (11%).

Anyways, not scientific, but certainly interesting.



Name AVG OBP SLG ISO BABIP SB BB% K% wOBA
Nomar Garciapar .313 .361 .521 .208 .312 95 6.6% 9.1% .376
Tony Gwynn .343 .388 .475 .132 .341 98 7.2% 3.5% .375
Paul Molitor .313 .377 .463 .149 .329 160 9.3% 9.6% .372
Dustin Pedroia .303 .374 .461 .158 .310 74 9.6% 8.0% .369
Ichiro Suzuki .327 .372 .423 .096 .353 407 6.2% 9.2% .350
Jose Vidro .298 .359 .445 .146 .312 23 8.4% 9.7% .349
Mike Greenwell .294 .354 .437 .143 .297 45 8.3% 7.0% .347
Gregg Jefferies .291 .347 .420 .129 .290 170 7.9% 5.4% .341
Eric Young .283 .359 .390 .107 .294 465 9.4% 6.6% .339
Darryl Hamilton .294 .362 .388 .095 .318 156 9.5% 9.6% .338
Cal Ripken .274 .335 .437 .163 .274 17 8.0% 9.3% .336
Jim Eisenreich .297 .350 .404 .107 .320 66 7.7% 9.7% .335
Mark Loretta .295 .360 .395 .100 .315 47 8.5% 9.2% .334
Tony Fernandez .285 .355 .398 .113 .308 134 9.2% 9.8% .334
Jason Kendall .288 .366 .378 .090 .306 189 8.3% 7.9% .333
Placido Polanco .301 .346 .408 .107 .311 79 5.4% 6.7% .332
Don Mattingly .286 .345 .405 .119 .289 6 8.3% 6.2% .331
B.J. Surhoff .285 .336 .424 .139 .296 95 7.2% 9.6% .331
Carlos Baerga .291 .332 .423 .131 .302 59 4.9% 9.8% .331
Lance Johnson .294 .336 .392 .097 .309 299 6.0% 6.3% .327
Joey Cora .280 .350 .375 .095 .297 101 8.8% 7.8% .327
Fernando Vina .282 .348 .379 .097 .294 116 6.1% 6.2% .324
Paul Lo Duca .286 .337 .409 .123 .290 20 6.2% 6.9% .324
Luis Polonia .293 .344 .381 .088 .319 246 7.2% 9.8% .324
Juan Pierre .297 .346 .364 .067 .314 542 5.7% 5.7% .322
Darrin Fletcher .268 .317 .422 .154 .269 2 6.0% 9.4% .320
Casey Kotchman .267 .333 .400 .133 .279 10 8.2% 9.8% .320
Ozzie Smith .274 .347 .341 .066 .286 148 9.9% 5.1% .319
David Eckstein .280 .345 .355 .075 .298 123 6.6% 7.3% .316
Omar Vizquel .275 .340 .357 .082 .297 400 8.7% 9.0% .315
Orlando Palmeir .274 .351 .350 .076 .297 37 9.8% 8.5% .314
Orlando Cabrera .273 .319 .392 .119 .285 214 6.3% 8.9% .313
Bengie Molina .274 .307 .411 .137 .275 3 4.0% 9.1% .309
Joe Orsulak .270 .322 .368 .098 .285 28 6.9% 9.1% .307
Endy Chavez .273 .315 .375 .102 .297 93 5.7% 9.7% .304
Yadier Molina .268 .326 .364 .096 .282 23 7.3% 8.6% .303
Lenny Harris .271 .320 .353 .082 .286 113 6.5% 7.7% .302
Aaron Miles .284 .322 .355 .071 .310 29 5.1% 9.6% .298
Yuni Betancourt .269 .293 .391 .121 .281 29 3.4% 9.0% .294
Deivi Cruz .269 .293 .388 .119 .284 16 3.0% 9.8% .293
Toby Hall .262 .297 .374 .112 .269 2 4.1% 8.6% .290
Neifi Perez .267 .297 .375 .108 .284 57 4.2% 9.1% .290
Luis Sojo .261 .297 .352 .091 .271 28 4.5% 7.1% .289
Mark Lemke .248 .319 .324 .076 .266 11 9.6% 9.3% .287
Rey Sanchez .272 .308 .334 .062 .299 55 4.4% 9.7% .285
Gary DiSarcina .258 .292 .341 .083 .273 47 3.8% 7.6% .281
Ozzie Guillen .264 .290 .344 .079 .278 68 3.6% 6.7% .277
Cesar Izturis .255 .295 .322 .067 .280 109 4.9% 9.3% .274
Jose Lind .254 .291 .313 .059 .275 30 5.0% 8.6% .267

_Sir_Charles_
07-22-2011, 01:18 PM
Okay...but how many of those guys were hitting at a .402 clip? :O)

It doesn't look to me that he goes in that last group. He's a mixture. High contact rate puts him in that 'slap hitters' group. Excellent speed puts him in that 'speedy group'. The only one he doesn't fit into is the power hitting group. Obviously I don't think he'll continue at this pace, but his batting average up to now (this year and last year) haven't shown any signs of letting up. I'm not sure what we make of him....other than just sit back and enjoy it. :O)

RedsManRick
07-22-2011, 01:41 PM
Okay...but how many of those guys were hitting at a .402 clip? :O)

In A Ball? No idea... He's fast, but I don't think he's Ichiro/Pierre fast. Gwynn, Kendall, Vizquel and company were all pretty fast when younger.

I'm as excited as anybody, but I'm very curious about how he can handle pitchers who can located their breaking stuff. An ability to lay off stuff out of the zone can lead to a higher contact rate than is sustainable against players who can put offspeed and breaking stuff in the zone.

Doug, have you seen how he handles non-fastballs?

lollipopcurve
07-22-2011, 01:48 PM
but I'm very curious about how he can handle pitchers who can located their breaking stuff.

I think it's pretty apparent at this point that Torreyes has no trouble recognizing pitches and putting the barrel on the ball.

The comp I've generally had in mind is Polanco.

partisan
07-22-2011, 02:22 PM
In A Ball? No idea... He's fast, but I don't think he's Ichiro/Pierre fast. Gwynn, Kendall, Vizquel and company were all pretty fast when younger.

I'm as excited as anybody, but I'm very curious about how he can handle pitchers who can located their breaking stuff. An ability to lay off stuff out of the zone can lead to a higher contact rate than is sustainable against players who can put offspeed and breaking stuff in the zone.

Doug, have you seen how he handles non-fastballs?

I saw him knock a changeup opposite field for a double. Opposing pitcher was getting some decent swing and misses on the pitch too.

Of course that's an impressive sample size of one, and my eyes aren't exactly well trained to spot holes in a hitter's swing. So Doug probably has more on that one. I liked what I saw though :beerme:

dougdirt
07-22-2011, 02:33 PM
I haven't seen him enough to say one way or the other on how he handles breaking balls, and unfortunately with the games available online tonight I don't get to watch them either (brother is getting married tomorrow). But, from what I have seen I will say that he gets the strikezone quite well.

Benihana
07-22-2011, 03:15 PM
How about a shorter Jose Vidro with less power but a better glove?

Similar hit tool and contact rate. I'd take that.

nemesis
07-27-2011, 10:45 PM
Even if Raton goes 0 for his next 64, he still would be hitting .280.

He has 56 hits in 33 games at Dayton.

He has 23 hits in his last 44 AB's.

Plus 2 walks.

He has only struck out TWICE in 102 AB's vs RHP...

In. Freaking. Sane.

I don't care if the kid ever makes the majors. He is just so much fun to watch in person and it almost makes me giddy to check his numbers from the games.

partisan
07-27-2011, 11:08 PM
Even if Raton goes 0 for his next 64, he still would be hitting .280.

He has 56 hits in 33 games at Dayton.

He has 23 hits in his last 44 AB's.

Plus 2 walks.

He has only struck out TWICE in 102 AB's vs RHP...

In. Freaking. Sane.

I don't care if the kid ever makes the majors. He is just so much fun to watch in person and it almost makes me giddy to check his numbers from the games.

I don't see how this guy doesn't make the majors at some point, unless he somehow loses weight over the next 3-4 years.

Incredible defense alone gets him a shot at the big show.

mace
07-27-2011, 11:21 PM
nemesis and partisan: Obviously, you guys have watched him in person quite a bit. Last year, we got rave reviews about Torreyes' defense from redsof72, but we haven't heard much this year. Can you elaborate? My sense is that he's very sound fundamentally. Does it go beyond that? Quick hands? Decent arm? Good range? Acrobatic? Reliable? As they say, give us a full report.

partisan
07-27-2011, 11:46 PM
nemesis and partisan: Obviously, you guys have watched him in person quite a bit. Last year, we got rave reviews about Torreyes' defense from redsof72, but we haven't heard much this year. Can you elaborate? My sense is that he's very sound fundamentally. Does it go beyond that? Quick hands? Decent arm? Good range? Acrobatic? Reliable? As they say, give us a full report.

Quick hands and feet, with pretty good range based on the small sample size I've seen. Very accurate arm, although I haven't witnessed any plays that required much arm strength. I think scouting reports that say his defensive tool is superior to his bat may be accurate.

Gut reaction is that he has the same defensively capabilities as Hamilton except arm strength (but I can't say that definitively).

redsof72
07-28-2011, 12:15 AM
He has not made those same incredible diving plays this year that he made in 10. But very steady, solid still. No coincidence team started winning when he got here. I am waiting for someone to say a guy hitting .412 does not walk enough. Everything about the kid is first rate. Scouts still unsure how size will play out. Will be fun to find out. 22-9. He and Hamilton are making it happen with assists from Lutz, D'Anna, Barnhart, and the pitchers.

dougdirt
07-28-2011, 01:30 AM
He has not made those same incredible diving plays this year that he made in 10. But very steady, solid still. No coincidence team started winning when he got here. I am waiting for someone to say a guy hitting .412 does not walk enough. Everything about the kid is first rate. Scouts still unsure how size will play out. Will be fun to find out. 22-9. He and Hamilton are making it happen with assists from Lutz, D'Anna, Barnhart, and the pitchers.

Let me know if someone starts talking about him not walking enough. I will talk their ear off all day about it. And I am a big proponent of walking, but there is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to productive offense.

partisan
07-28-2011, 01:53 AM
Let me know if someone starts talking about him not walking enough. I will talk their ear off all day about it. And I am a big proponent of walking, but there is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to productive offense.

Couldn't agree more. The kid doesn't draw walks because he knows he can hit the pitches they throw him. Give me all the players you can find with that low of a strikeout rate and I'll be a happy camper.

mdccclxix
07-28-2011, 03:05 AM
I have to ask, not to kill the buzz, but is this kid a legit 18 years old? This is nuts!

partisan
07-28-2011, 09:57 AM
I have to ask, not to kill the buzz, but is this kid a legit 18 years old? This is nuts!

Could be younger I guess. :lol:

RedLegsToday
07-28-2011, 09:59 AM
I have to ask, not to kill the buzz, but is this kid a legit 18 years old? This is nuts!


Well, he looks like he's about 14, so, I'm going to say it is legit.

redsof72
07-28-2011, 10:07 AM
Agreed that he looks younger than 18 if anything. He could pass for 16 pretty easy.

_Sir_Charles_
07-28-2011, 11:14 AM
I posted this question the other day, but at what point do you promote Torreyes? I know he's only been here in Dayton for a short while, but it is ABUNDANTLY clear that he's too good for this league. Without a doubt. I've always subscribed to the philosophy of "Coddle thy pitchers, challenge thy hitters", and this seems to be spot on for Ronald. Time for a bump. He might be a prime candidate to fast track IMO.

Also, where do people think he'll end up sticking positionally? He's played 2nd mostly this season, but he's also been at third and short as well. I'm guessing 2nd, but is there a reason he couldn't be a SS or 3b?

Edd Roush
07-28-2011, 11:29 AM
I posted this question the other day, but at what point do you promote Torreyes? I know he's only been here in Dayton for a short while, but it is ABUNDANTLY clear that he's too good for this league. Without a doubt. I've always subscribed to the philosophy of "Coddle thy pitchers, challenge thy hitters", and this seems to be spot on for Ronald. Time for a bump. He might be a prime candidate to fast track IMO.

Also, where do people think he'll end up sticking positionally? He's played 2nd mostly this season, but he's also been at third and short as well. I'm guessing 2nd, but is there a reason he couldn't be a SS or 3b?

Completely agree about challenging your hitters and coddling your pitchers.

Lohman wasn't setting the world on fire at Dayton and still got the bump to Bakersfield. If it wasn't for my interest in catching a game in Dayton sometime soon, I would definitely want to see them flipped.

And to your point about Torreyes trying out shortstop, Greene and him could take turns playing shortstop and second base. That actually seems like a pretty good solution to figure out if either of them can hit at that level (which Greene's recent streak seems to prove he can) and whether they are viable second baseman and/or shortstops.

nemesis
07-28-2011, 11:32 AM
Yeah. If he is lying about his age, it would be under not over. But with all the international experiance he has, I'm guessing there is no questions about it.

His defensive range is solid. Plays very quick to the ball. Turns a nice Dp. Played 3B for the U18 Venezuela team. So his arm has to be decent.

Yeah his walk rate is never going to be an issue because he is probably a 70 or better with his hit tool. Hits balls everywhere. Has no weakness that I've seen against any pitch or pitcher type. Just takes what's given to him.

Scrap Irony
07-28-2011, 12:10 PM
His range at 2B, his instincts, and his arm accuracy make it his best position.

Could he play SS? IMO, passably. Good 'nuff.

He might not have the arm for the hot corner. (And you'd be wasting his range.)

As of now, he's Brandon Phillips-ish defensively (better baseball IQ, more focused, less arm, same range, better accuracy) and good enough to play in the major leagues. Offensively, we'll see. He's got a plus hit tool (IMO) with above average power and speed.

Problem is, what happens in moving him? Rodriguez needs more time in AA and has a very nice pedigree of his own. And Brodie Greene is going for an 800+ OPS in High A as a 2B/ SS as a 23-year-old, not to mention DiDi Gregorious, who's also pushing an 800 OPS (as a 21-year-old). None of these guys are worthy of pushing up right now aside from Torreyes, but all are prospects.

If Torreyes continues to hit at this level, perhaps the Reds consider skipping him above High A next season and see how he responds to AA? That would push him ahead of either Greene or Gregorious (likely the younger) and just behind H. Rodriguez.

RedLegsToday
07-28-2011, 12:22 PM
I can't imagine the Reds moving him up this year. Dayton finally has a fun team, and he's been a huge part of their second half run. I would guess he's there until Dayton locks up a 2nd half playoff spot.

Homer Bailey
07-28-2011, 02:43 PM
His numbers in Bakersfield (once he's ready) would be absolutely silly.

GOYA
07-28-2011, 03:38 PM
They are already silly.


Let me know if someone starts talking about him not walking enough. I will talk their ear off all day about it.

How about unsustainable BABIP?

dougdirt
07-28-2011, 03:52 PM
How about unsustainable BABIP?

Clearly, but I don't think anyone thinks he is a .400 hitter either. The guy has the ability to be a .300+ hitter. If he is walking as often as he is striking out, that is going to play just fine.

_Sir_Charles_
07-28-2011, 04:08 PM
I can't imagine the Reds moving him up this year. Dayton finally has a fun team, and he's been a huge part of their second half run. I would guess he's there until Dayton locks up a 2nd half playoff spot.

I'm assuming that the Reds will pick up Phillips' option. So that makes us set for 2012 at second. 2013 is the question mark. I'd like to see Ronald fast-tracked and see if he just might be the answer to that question come 2013. I know he's young...but it's not like he's just playing well...he's playing like a men among boys. He needs to face tougher competition. And the sooner, the better for the sake of the parent club.

I know some of the guys above him are playing pretty well too, but none of them are setting the league on fire. Ronald is. Challenge him. I'd bump him to AA at some time THIS year. If he plays well, let him spend most of next year in Louisville. If he doesn't play well at AA, fine...start him at AA next year and see how it goes.