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View Full Version : Why i take Leake over Strasburg



brm7675
07-29-2010, 02:00 PM
There is no question that Mr. Strasburg may have a wonderful career in pro baseball, but if given the choice to either have him or Mike Leake, I take Leake and one of the major reasons is:

Shoulder lands Strasburg on 15-day DL

I mean we are only in his first season and he is already experiencing arm issues. Sorry but Leake has made the jump and will give the Reds over 150+ innings with a number of quality starts and no where to go but up and not one single issue of arm problem. Sorry but Strasburg may throw 100mph, but Leake is a pitcher.

texasdave
07-29-2010, 02:02 PM
It may be a very minor shoulder problem, but it seems odd that as much as they babied Strasburg he still ends up with shoulder inflammation.

Reverend Doo-Rag
07-29-2010, 02:04 PM
Mr. Stasburg would surly object to this subject line.
Doesn't seem like that type of guy. Also, this is a family website.

RedsFanInBama
07-29-2010, 02:06 PM
It's pretty alarming that a guy who has been babied so much is already going to the DL. By the time the Nationals get through babying him, he might be pitching for the Yankees.

texasdave
07-29-2010, 02:07 PM
Mr. Stasburg would surly object to this subject line.
Doesn't seem like that type of guy. Also, this is a family website.

:p:

bshall2105
07-29-2010, 02:08 PM
Mr. Stasburg would surly object to this subject line.
Doesn't seem like that type of guy. Also, this is a family website.

:laugh:

TheBigLebowski
07-29-2010, 02:15 PM
So easy, yet so clever..

GIDP
07-29-2010, 02:34 PM
Mr. Stasburg would surly object to this subject line.
Doesn't seem like that type of guy. Also, this is a family website.

lol

Jr's Boy
07-29-2010, 03:02 PM
Leake?R Kelly?wait,what.:confused:

Hondo
07-29-2010, 03:27 PM
I would like Strasburg on the Reds...

Griffey012
07-29-2010, 04:01 PM
It may be a very minor shoulder problem, but it seems odd that as much as they babied Strasburg he still ends up with shoulder inflammation.

I really think the excessive babying of young pitchers is really hurting a lot of them. It's pretty easy to take a guy out after 85 pitches and 4.2 IP in AA in front of 7,000 fans in a meaningless game to the big club. But its nearly impossible to do that in the MLB in front of 40,000 fans.

Why can't we just let them get used to throwing 100-110 pitches in the minors so it's not a big deal when they do so in the majors?

Caveman Techie
07-29-2010, 05:02 PM
I really think the excessive babying of young pitchers is really hurting a lot of them. It's pretty easy to take a guy out after 85 pitches and 4.2 IP in AA in front of 7,000 fans in a meaningless game to the big club. But its nearly impossible to do that in the MLB in front of 40,000 fans.

Why can't we just let them get used to throwing 100-110 pitches in the minors so it's not a big deal when they do so in the majors?

Your point of view has some merit to it, and is gaining some support around baseball. I'll see if I can find the article from a few years back that compared the rate of arm injuries of Japanese players and American players. If I remember correctly the Japanese players had about half as many injuries while throwing WAAAAAYYYY more innings than their American counterparts.

texasdave
07-29-2010, 05:13 PM
This may be that article:

http://www.pitching.com/articles/view/pitch-counts-japanese-pitchers-and-red-sox-pitcher-matsuzaka

Vottomatic
07-29-2010, 05:14 PM
My first thought when I first heard he had arm problems was............did he ever play under Dusty Baker?

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-29-2010, 05:22 PM
Pitch count is such an overrated statistic. It's made up like the change your oil every 3,000 mile rule... yet numerous people believe in it.

brm7675
07-29-2010, 05:25 PM
Pitch count is such an overrated statistic. It's made up like the change your oil every 3,000 mile rule... yet numerous people believe in it.

According to whom?

Dale4Saul2Red0
07-29-2010, 05:31 PM
According to whom?

I've heard numerous managers, players, and experts say it over the years. It's something that was created to protect an investment, nothing more. It's fabrication at its finest.

Nolan Ryan one of the best pitchers to ever grace the mound has said numerous times it is about conditioning and not pitch count. Here is a little excerpt from an article:


Retired players generally scoff at the idea that a major leaguer should throw only 100 pitches. "I used to have that many by the second inning," joked Sam McDowell, who pitched for the Indians from 1961 to 1971, winning 122 games and leading the league in strikeouts five times.

McDowell and another fireballer, Sonny Siebert, who threw a no-hitter for Cleveland in 1966, both said they had games in which they threw more than 200 pitches. Nolan Ryan is said to have thrown 259 pitches in a 12-inning game in 1974.

"I don't believe in taking a pitcher out unless he's in trouble," said Siebert. "If a guy is young and in shape, the number of pitches shouldn't be a problem."

Said McDowell: "The more you use a muscle, the stronger it gets."

Len Barker, who threw a perfect game for the Indians in 1981, questioned today's philosophy. "If a guy is throwing good, why take him out?

"I had games where I threw 145 to 175 pitches. They pay relievers millions of dollars, so they have to justify using them."


Al Lopez, who managed the Indians to the 1954 pennant and is the oldest living Hall of Famer, hates the new approach.

"Carl Hubbell pitched 18 innings and won a 1-0 game," he said. "Early Wynn threw 125-130 pitches every game."

Al Rosen, the former Indians slugger who became a top baseball executive, quotes the old adage: "Arms don't wear out. They rust out."

markymark69
07-29-2010, 05:37 PM
I've heard numerous managers, players, and experts say it over the years. It's something that was created to protect an investment, nothing more. It's fabrication at its finest.

Nolan Ryan one of the best pitchers to ever grace the mound has said numerous times it is about conditioning and not pitch count. Here is a little excerpt from an article:

Jim Kaat in his book "Still Pitching" talked about it as well, he was more of a proponent of pitcher's pitching more and running less. Didn't seem to be a pitch count limit guy. It was a good read.

Pony Boy
07-29-2010, 06:18 PM
The strange thing is that when Leake was drafted many were concerned that he wouldn't be durable do to his slight frame. In reality body size has very little to do with durability. It is all about pitching style and mechanics. Both factors that would suggest that Leake is a better bet than most to have a relatively injury free career. Strasburg falls into the opposite category.

brm7675
07-29-2010, 06:30 PM
I've heard numerous managers, players, and experts say it over the years. It's something that was created to protect an investment, nothing more. It's fabrication at its finest.

Nolan Ryan one of the best pitchers to ever grace the mound has said numerous times it is about conditioning and not pitch count. Here is a little excerpt from an article:

So you don't put much stock in the Verducci Effect?

Griffey012
07-29-2010, 07:04 PM
So you don't put much stock in the Verducci Effect?

Isn't the Verducci effect Innings Pitched and not Pitch Counts? Though in most cases a significant increase in IP is going to equate to a significant increase in pitches, which together is a heavier workload. However the pitcher's conditioning, preparation, and amount of pitches thrown outside the season likely have not changed, but they should be increasing to shoulder the extra load.

And I for one to not put much stock into the "Verducci Effect."

brm7675
07-29-2010, 07:20 PM
Isn't the Verducci effect Innings Pitched and not Pitch Counts? Though in most cases a significant increase in IP is going to equate to a significant increase in pitches, which together is a heavier workload. However the pitcher's conditioning, preparation, and amount of pitches thrown outside the season likely have not changed, but they should be increasing to shoulder the extra load.

And I for one to not put much stock into the "Verducci Effect."

I think both are kinda tied together.

texasdave
07-29-2010, 09:23 PM
Listening to Louisville on the radio and they said that Strasburg went on the DL today.

Caveman Techie
07-29-2010, 11:02 PM
This may be that article:

http://www.pitching.com/articles/view/pitch-counts-japanese-pitchers-and-red-sox-pitcher-matsuzaka

I do believe that is it. Thanks for finding it for me again, interesting read.

Orodle
07-30-2010, 01:46 AM
i would say your crazy

urdun
07-30-2010, 04:47 AM
aren't we forgetting mike leake had elbow tendinitis in his last few games at az. st. if you want to make an argument about leake vs. strasburg this isn't a good one. in fact not sure there is a good one. but you keep stirring up the pot brm seems like that is all you want to do is find a poor argument and get behind it.

cinreds21
07-30-2010, 05:18 AM
Watch Leake go on the DL with shoulder tendentious or something after his next start lol

jfleur87
07-30-2010, 12:38 PM
Watch Leake go on the DL with shoulder tendentious or something after his next start lol


Hopefully as you submitted this you were knocking on wood in a feverish manner

cinreds21
07-30-2010, 01:29 PM
Hopefully as you submitted this you were knocking on wood in a feverish manner

Rich mahogany, actually.