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View Full Version : Why was the Cantu trade thread closed?



savafan
07-29-2010, 08:25 PM
I don't know who to directly ask this question to, since I don't know who closed it, so I'll ask here. I don't see another thread on the topic, except for the one about deadline deals that isn't for discussion. The trade happened, it's been confirmed, if there's another thread on the subject, someone let me know and I'll go there to discuss the deal, but if this is another case where there's an unwritten rule where we don't discuss a former Red because the conversation could potentially get heated, well then that's just silly.

Sea Ray
07-29-2010, 08:27 PM
I was wondering the same thing. I thought I'd see it listed in the transactions thread but found nothing. Beats me:confused:

RBA
07-29-2010, 08:54 PM
Very strange going ons.

Joseph
07-29-2010, 08:56 PM
Dunno pal. Carry on with the discussion though.

WVRed
07-29-2010, 08:58 PM
Im guessing this maybe?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84098

Redsfan320
07-29-2010, 09:00 PM
I was wondering the same thing. I thought I'd see it listed in the transactions thread but found nothing. Beats me

BTW, if you're referring to the transactions thread I started, I didn't add it there, until it was, by my judgment, absolutely confirmed. It is now there. But that thread's not for discussion anyway.

320

RBA
07-29-2010, 09:06 PM
No soup for you.

savafan
07-29-2010, 09:49 PM
Still can't believe the Reds cut Cantu loose without getting anything in return, much the same way they sold Cody Ross for change. Were both of those moves under DanO?

HokieRed
07-29-2010, 09:51 PM
Still can't believe the Reds cut Cantu loose without getting anything in return, much the same way they sold Cody Ross for change. Were both of those moves under DanO?


Both moves were made by Wayne Krivsky.

savafan
07-29-2010, 09:55 PM
Both moves were made by Wayne Krivsky.

Okay. Even at the time those moves were made, you'd think he could have gotten more, or at least something...

HokieRed
07-29-2010, 09:57 PM
Okay. Even at the time those moves were made, you'd think he could have gotten more, or at least something...


I agree. I'm no fan of WK's.

KronoRed
07-29-2010, 11:05 PM
Cantu had no place to play for the Reds, he's a 1b who pretends to play 3rd.

savafan
07-29-2010, 11:09 PM
Cantu had no place to play for the Reds, he's a 1b who pretends to play 3rd.

I'm not questioning that, or pining to have him back, just remarking that he had to have value to someone else

KronoRed
07-29-2010, 11:11 PM
The Reds declined him arbitration and the Marlins picked him up on a minor league deal, I don't think there was much interest for him at the time.

IslandRed
07-30-2010, 12:00 AM
When the Reds fished Cantu out of the Rays system in 2007 on a flier, he'd spent most of the year in Triple-A after OPSing .699 the year before. At the end of 2007, he had 115 official at-bats in the majors with one home run, and it wasn't like he was adding defensive value. Good on him that he got his career turned around, but he hadn't done anything that made him worth keeping when it was time for the Reds to decide to either offer arbitration or non-tender him.

Ross is a little harder to understand because he just didn't get a chance to play, being injured right after he got here. But even then, we got him off the DFA heap in the first place, so until he played enough to establish value he wasn't going to have any on the trade market.

LoganBuck
07-30-2010, 12:31 AM
Ross is a little harder to understand because he just didn't get a chance to play, being injured right after he got here. But even then, we got him off the DFA heap in the first place, so until he played enough to establish value he wasn't going to have any on the trade market.

IIRC, Ross was the victim of a perfect storm of a roster calamity. The Reds had guys coming and going to the DL, and needed the 40 man roster spot. Undoubtedly for some star player like Ramon Ramirez or Chad Moeller.

WVRedsFan
07-30-2010, 01:18 AM
Both moves were made by Wayne Krivsky.<sarcasm on> Noooo. Not Krivsky! He was so good <sarcasm off>

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2010, 02:34 AM
<sarcasm on> Noooo. Not Krivsky! He was so good <sarcasm off>

He's responsible for some of the key players on the current team: Brandon Phillips, Bronson Arroyo, Drew Stubbs, Logan Ondrusek, Edinson Volquez, Chris Heisey, Jordan Smith. He drafted the two players who were used to acquire Ramon Hernandez. After years of struggling, the Reds farm system flourished under Wayne Krivsky. People can bash Krivsky all they want but he's part of the reason why the Reds have been successful this season.

TheNext44
07-30-2010, 02:55 AM
The arbitration excuse on Cantu was just that, an excuse. They DFA'd him in order to make room on the roster for the Rule 5 draft, and then wasted the open spot on a single A reliever who couldn't throw strikes, and lasted about 20 minutes into spring training.

If arbitration really was an issue, they could have tried to work out a deal and then traded him, or non tendered him and signed him for what he was worth at the time, like they did with Gomes. He only signed for just about the league minimum with the Marlins as soon as he cleared waivers, it's not like he was making outrageous demands.

reds44
07-30-2010, 02:58 AM
He's responsible for some of the key players on the current team: Brandon Phillips, Bronson Arroyo, Drew Stubbs, Logan Ondrusek, Edinson Volquez, Chris Heisey, Jordan Smith. He drafted the two players who were used to acquire Ramon Hernandez. After years of struggling, the Reds farm system flourished under Wayne Krivsky. People can bash Krivsky all they want but he's part of the reason why the Reds have been successful this season.
He also traded Josh Hamilton for Volquez (for the record I liked that deal) and passed on Lincecum in favor of Stubbs.

KronoRed
07-30-2010, 04:04 AM
If arbitration really was an issue, they could have tried to work out a deal and then traded him, or non tendered him and signed him for what he was worth at the time, like they did with Gomes. He only signed for just about the league minimum with the Marlins as soon as he cleared waivers, it's not like he was making outrageous demands.

The problem with all of that is it's a lot of work for a guy that nobody expected much from, the Marlins got him for a Minor league deal, nobody was beating Cantu's door down.

GAC
07-30-2010, 06:33 AM
He also traded Josh Hamilton for Volquez (for the record I liked that deal) and passed on Lincecum in favor of Stubbs.

So? You have to look at and weigh the circumstances, and other variables at play, AT THAT TIME as to why decisions were made. Not years later when no one has the ability, nor the hindsight, to forecast how any young player is going to turn out.

Linecum was drafted by the Cubs in 2003 in the 48th round but didn't sign and went to college instead. The Indians drafted him in 2005 in the 42nd round and again he didn't sign. The Giants made him the #10 pick in 2006 so 8 other teams, besides the Reds, passed on him too.

People might be down on Stubbs somewhat now, but were they then. He was considered a pretty hot commodity coming out of the University of Texas.

As for the Hamilton-Volquez deal. No need to rehash that. Been there, done that. I have no problem with people who opposed the trade to begin with. But not those who liked the trade, seeing our need for pitching THEN, and then when EV gets hurt are now jumping off the band wagon or knocking WK for it when they weren't then. It's fickleness IMO.

No one possesses that kind of hindsight.

HokieRed
07-30-2010, 09:22 AM
He's responsible for some of the key players on the current team: Brandon Phillips, Bronson Arroyo, Drew Stubbs, Logan Ondrusek, Edinson Volquez, Chris Heisey, Jordan Smith. He drafted the two players who were used to acquire Ramon Hernandez. After years of struggling, the Reds farm system flourished under Wayne Krivsky. People can bash Krivsky all they want but he's part of the reason why the Reds have been successful this season.

Just for the sake of accurate history, Logan Ondrusek was drafted by O'Brien in 2005.

Caveat Emperor
07-30-2010, 09:37 AM
The problem with all of that is it's a lot of work for a guy that nobody expected much from, the Marlins got him for a Minor league deal, nobody was beating Cantu's door down.

For good reason, he's a mangler on defense and is a career .772 OPS guy.

REDREAD
07-30-2010, 10:21 AM
Cody Ross is a bit puzzling, as we traded to get him. I'm not crying over his loss, but it's interesting that the Reds had enough interest to trade for him and then toss him out.
Although Wayne's style was to churn through a lot of players (not a criticism, just an observation. Cantu was the same way, although I guess he at least got enough playing time to show he was a defensive liablity at 3b.. Again, not crying over either loss, at the time, it seemed like neither would amount to much.



[cody ross] April 24, 2006: Traded by the Los Angeles Dodgers to the Cincinnati Reds for a player to be named later. The Cincinnati Reds sent Ben Kozlowski (June 1, 2006) to the Los Angeles Dodgers to complete the trade.



[cantu]July 28, 2007: Traded by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays with Shaun Cumberland (minors) and cash to the Cincinnati Reds for Calvin Medlock (minors) and Brian Shackelford.

OnBaseMachine
07-30-2010, 12:13 PM
Just for the sake of accurate history, Logan Ondrusek was drafted by O'Brien in 2005.

You're right, my fault.

paulrichjr
07-30-2010, 03:45 PM
<sarcasm on> Noooo. Not Krivsky! He was so good <sarcasm off>

It should be noted that Wayne traded for both of these also. If it is so bad that he let them go then shouldn't he get credit for getting them for nothing? I remember when Cantu was let go because of his impending arbitration costs... I DON'T remember anyone upset about that nor do I remember anyone excited about Ross being added or subtracted from the roster.

Krivs was incredible at finding diamonds in my opinion. One of his problems was that he didn't work for the Cardinals before coming here. His other was that he sold ownership on a pie in the sky - win now- that had no chance of working.

I like Walt by the way and think he deserves credit for a lot of things but there is no way this team would be sniffing first place without Krivs.

Diamonds -
Phillips
Hamilton
Volquez
Arroyo
Ross
Loshe - Has had a couple of very good seasons since
Cantu
Ryan Franklin

camisadelgolf
07-30-2010, 06:23 PM
Still can't believe the Reds cut Cantu loose without getting anything in return, much the same way they sold Cody Ross for change. Were both of those moves under DanO?
I don't think people who criticize letting go of Cantu realize just how bad Cantu is. His bat is average, and he plays horrible, horrible defense. Supposedly, he was very unhappy with the idea of being a backup behind Phillips, Encarnacion, and Votto, so he asked to be non-tendered. Besides, with Edwin Encarnacion, Jeff Keppinger, Brandon Phillips, Joey Votto, Jerry Hairston, Ryan Freel, Paul Janish, etc. on the roster, there wasn't any room for him anyway.

As for Cody Ross, he was obtained on waivers as a temporary fix since Griffey and Freel were hurt. But when Freel came back (and Griffey's return was inevitable), they had to give Cody Ross away to the best offer. At the time, would you have rather they traded Adam Dunn, Chris Denorfia, or Austin Kearns? Ken Griffey wasn't going anywhere, and Ryan Freel was still valuable at the time.

edabbs44
07-30-2010, 06:31 PM
He's responsible for some of the key players on the current team: Brandon Phillips, Bronson Arroyo, Drew Stubbs, Logan Ondrusek, Edinson Volquez, Chris Heisey, Jordan Smith. He drafted the two players who were used to acquire Ramon Hernandez. After years of struggling, the Reds farm system flourished under Wayne Krivsky. People can bash Krivsky all they want but he's part of the reason why the Reds have been successful this season.

Since you used the word "key" and "current team", I'm thinking that you can narrow that list to Arroyo and Phillips. And where is Cordero? We are only 2.5 years into that beauty.

edabbs44
07-31-2010, 12:06 AM
He's responsible for some of the key players on the current team: Brandon Phillips, Bronson Arroyo, Drew Stubbs, Logan Ondrusek, Edinson Volquez, Chris Heisey, Jordan Smith. He drafted the two players who were used to acquire Ramon Hernandez. After years of struggling, the Reds farm system flourished under Wayne Krivsky. People can bash Krivsky all they want but he's part of the reason why the Reds have been successful this season.

The Cordero signing negates whatever Wayne did while here and then some.

REDREAD
07-31-2010, 12:17 AM
Krivs was incredible at finding diamonds in my opinion. One of his problems was that he didn't work for the Cardinals before coming here. His other was that he sold ownership on a pie in the sky - win now- that had no chance of working.


Wayne made some good moves. No one can deny that.
But ultimately, he could not finish over .500. The team's W-L record got worse each year under his watch. Also, I bet Cast got frustrated with eating as many bad contracts as he ended up eating.

Look at all the deadweight Walt had to clean up after Walt left.. Wayne bought in some great players, but also some horrible ones.

In all fairness, I don't think you can count Franklin as a "win". Dude was horrible while he was here.

camisadelgolf
07-31-2010, 01:07 AM
There isn't a single GM who could've been dealt Krivsky's hand and turned it into a winner in a span of just a couple years.

Big Klu
07-31-2010, 02:20 AM
As for Cody Ross, he was obtained on waivers as a temporary fix since Griffey and Freel were hurt. But when Freel came back (and Griffey's return was inevitable), they had to give Cody Ross away to the best offer. At the time, would you have rather they traded Adam Dunn, Chris Denorfia, or Austin Kearns? Ken Griffey wasn't going anywhere, and Ryan Freel was still valuable at the time.

Didn't the Reds decide to keep Quinton McCracken over Cody Ross, though? That's the only decision I question. If they had kept Ross instead of Q, and then later had to make a hard decision on Cody because Griffey, Dunn, Kearns, Freel, and Denorfia were all healthy and ready to play, then that would have been different. (Although Kearns may have been traded to DC by that time.)

camisadelgolf
07-31-2010, 02:17 PM
Didn't the Reds decide to keep Quinton McCracken over Cody Ross, though? That's the only decision I question. If they had kept Ross instead of Q, and then later had to make a hard decision on Cody because Griffey, Dunn, Kearns, Freel, and Denorfia were all healthy and ready to play, then that would have been different. (Although Kearns may have been traded to DC by that time.)
Yes, that's true, unfortunately. I think the fact that Freel was so injury prone had a lot to do with that.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2010, 02:21 PM
There isn't a single GM who could've been dealt Krivsky's hand and turned it into a winner in a span of just a couple years.

I don't disagree with that. But what I hear all the time, but don't see any particular hard and fast evidence of is the meme: "Yeah, but he turned around the Reds' farm system." He certainly didn't draft better than O'Brien or Jocketty. So what did he do exactly?

HokieRed
07-31-2010, 02:28 PM
I don't disagree with that. But what I hear all the time, but don't see any particular hard and fast evidence of is the meme: "Yeah, but he turned around the Reds' farm system." He certainly didn't draft better than O'Brien or Jocketty. So what did he do exactly?

As a non-Krivsky fan, though one who thinks he did a reasonably good job, I'll say he made one supremely creative move, then undid it with a horrible trade based on the most orthodox of ideas: that you always move a position player for a starting pitcher when possible.

WebScorpion
07-31-2010, 02:40 PM
I seem to recall a quote from Krivsky saying he'd traded (in the end I think they 'sold' him) Ross because it was in Cody's best interest. He knew Cody would have a better chance at playing in Florida than with the Reds. I'll see if I can dig something up, but that was my recollection.

mth123
07-31-2010, 02:44 PM
I seem to recall a quote from Krivsky saying he'd traded (in the end I think they 'sold' him) Ross because it was in Cody's best interest. He knew Cody would have a better chance at playing in Florida than with the Reds. I'll see if I can dig something up, but that was my recollection.

I remember that as well. Still a bad move.

WebScorpion
07-31-2010, 03:04 PM
I seem to recall a quote from Krivsky saying he'd traded (in the end I think they 'sold' him) Ross because it was in Cody's best interest. He knew Cody would have a better chance at playing in Florida than with the Reds. I'll see if I can dig something up, but that was my recollection.

From a Marlins.com report (http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070303&content_id=1824982&vkey=spt2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=fla):
"The only reason I was there because Griffey was hurt," Ross said. "But Wayne Krivsky was so good. He was straight forward. He said, 'Listen, I don't know what's going to go on. Don't go out and get an apartment yet. Don't do anything yet.'

"They tried to keep me as long as they could, they put me on a rehab assignment, but it just got to a point where they couldn't hold on to me any longer."

So when the Marlins made the deal with the Reds, Krivski told the outfielder: "We've got bad news for us, but good news for you. You've got traded."

"I was like, 'You're serious?' That's what happens when you're out of options, and you don't have a role on a specific team, you might have to bounce around a little bit before you get a good fit with an organization," Ross said.

------------------------

What's better? To be a decent human or the best at your job? Personally, I'd give up a little success to do the 'right' thing, but that's just me. It seems that he would have had to give up someone that year anyway..we had Hollandsworth, McCracken, Hopper, Freel, Denorfia, and even DeWayne Wise at some point. Most, or possibly all, were out of options so someone was going to go. Having Cody Ross today probably wouldn't be enough to put this team over the top, and besides, Cody probably wouldn't be the player he is today if he'd spent the past 5 years on and off our bench. I have no problem with this transaction. It happened to work out well for Cody though. :thumbup:

HokieRed
07-31-2010, 03:43 PM
I remember this about WK too. Seemed a very decent thing to do. Too bad it was based on misevaluation--not strictly Wayne's own--of the talent at hand, specifically an overvaluation of Kearns.

camisadelgolf
07-31-2010, 03:59 PM
I don't disagree with that. But what I hear all the time, but don't see any particular hard and fast evidence of is the meme: "Yeah, but he turned around the Reds' farm system." He certainly didn't draft better than O'Brien or Jocketty. So what did he do exactly?
You can't definitively say that WayK has drafted better than DanO, but to be fair, DanO's prospects have had two more years to develop. Currently, the organization has very few prospects from the days of DanO, but it's packed full of prospects from Krivsky's tenure. Here's the story of what the Reds currently have in their organization.

If there's a minor leaguer brought in by DanO who has a chance of helping the Reds, we've already seen him. This is what we've gotten out of them so far.

DAN O'BRIEN
PLAYER WAR (as a Red)
Johnny Cueto 4.1
Jay Bruce 1.9
Paul Janish 0.9
Travis Wood 0.8
Juan Francisco 0.4
Logan Ondrusek 0.4
Enerio Del Rosaio 0.0
Sam LeCure -0.1
Homer Bailey -1.4
----------------------------
TOTAL 7.0

Minor leaguers:
James Avery
Mike Griffin
Kevyn Feiner
Eric Eymann
Chris Denove
Carlos Mendez
Junior Martinez
Miguel Rojas
Jose Gualdron
Efrain Contreras
Denis Phipps
Terrell Young

On the flip side, Wayne Krivsky has brought in a lot more Major League talent, and many of the organizations top prospects have yet to prove their worth. I'm talking about guys like Chris Valaika, Ben Jukich, Danny Dorn, Devin Mesoraco, Todd Frazier, Kyle Lotzkar, Zack Cozart, Scott Carroll, Nefi Soto, Evan Hildenbrandt, Joe Krebs, Matt Klinker, Lee Tabor, Jake Kahaulelio, Jordan Hotchkiss, Henry Rodriguez, Juan Duran, and Didi Gregorius.


WAYNE Krivsky
PLAYER WAR (as a Red)
Bronson Arroyo 13.1
Brandon Phillips 6.4
Edinson Volquez 4.7
Francisco Cordero 3.7
Drew Stubbs 3.4
Jared Burton 2.0
Chris Heisey 0.6
Bill Bray 0.6
Jordan Smith 0.4
Matt Maloney 0.4
Daniel Ray Herrera 0.1
Jerry Gil 0.0
Daryl Thompson -0.1
Mike Lincoln -0.4 (damn Walt for the stupid extension)
Carlos Fisher -0.4
----------------------------
TOTAL 32.8

Minor leaguers:
Chris Valaika
Justin Reed
Josh Ravin
Travis Webb
Ben Jukich
Derrik Lutz
Lee Tabor
Danny Dorn
Ezequiel Infante
Mauricio Pimentel
Miguel Chacoa
Jose Marizan
Victor Navarro
Devin Mesoraco
Todd Frazier
Kyle Lotzkar
Zack Cozart
Scott Carroll
Nefi Soto
Drew Bowman
Evan Hildenbrandt
Alex Oliveras
Jordan Wideman
Scott Gaffney
Joe Krebs
Matt Klinker
Jeff Jeffords
Jake Kahaulelio
Jeremy Horst
Curtis Partch
Jordan Hotchkiss
Mike Henry
Henry Rodriguez
Donald Lutz
Luca Panerati
Tzu-Kai Chiu
Jefry Sierra
Danny Vicioso
Porfirio Martinez
Aguido Gonzalez
Jose Victor
Daniel Martinez
Robert Moreno
Juan Duran
Didi Gregorius

HokieRed
07-31-2010, 10:34 PM
For the sake of accuracy, Carlos Fisher was drafted by O'Brien in 2005. O'Brien also drafted another major league player that year in Adam Rosales. Phillipe Valiquette should also be included in any list of O'Brien draftees with serious major league prospects.

Caveat Emperor
07-31-2010, 10:39 PM
I don't disagree with that. But what I hear all the time, but don't see any particular hard and fast evidence of is the meme: "Yeah, but he turned around the Reds' farm system." He certainly didn't draft better than O'Brien or Jocketty. So what did he do exactly?

The minor league operations stopped being a meat-grinder for arms under the tenure of O'Brien and Krivsky. I don't pretend to know the details, but I know that whatever they did resulted in much healthier farm system that's seen FAR fewer major injuries and more prospects make it to the high minors with their shoulders and elbows completely intact.

There was a culture of awful surrounding the player development for this franchise, especially when it came to pitching. That's kinda gone now, and I think Krivsky shares some credit for that.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2010, 10:42 PM
The minor league operations stopped being a meat-grinder for arms under the tenure of O'Brien and Krivsky. I don't pretend to know the details, but I know that whatever they did resulted in much healthier farm system that's seen FAR fewer major injuries and more prospects make it to the high minors with their shoulders and elbows completely intact.

There was a culture of awful surrounding the player development for this franchise, especially when it came to pitching. That's kinda gone now, and I think Krivsky shares some credit for that.

But it's been universally pitched that it was Krivsky, not O'Brien, that was solely responsible.

HokieRed
07-31-2010, 11:10 PM
But it's been universally pitched that it was Krivsky, not O'Brien, that was solely responsible.


Not universally. Without wanting to take anything away from Krivsky, I have consistently insisted on the case for O'Brien.

camisadelgolf
07-31-2010, 11:59 PM
For the sake of accuracy, Carlos Fisher was drafted by O'Brien in 2005. O'Brien also drafted another major league player that year in Adam Rosales. Phillipe Valiquette should also be included in any list of O'Brien draftees with serious major league prospects.
Thank you. I put together that list rather hastily. There are several more acquisitions I could've included that are no longer in the organization, but it would've weighted things a lot more heavily in Krivsky's favor.

paulrichjr
08-01-2010, 10:53 AM
Not universally. Without wanting to take anything away from Krivsky, I have consistently insisted on the case for O'Brien.

And I agree that he deserves some credit also. Really you have to look back at the Bowden Era and the After Bowden Era and the day he was fired things started heading in the right direction. Even the interim GMs did much better. There should be an abbreviation for this period because it certainly has had a lasting effect on this team...

Slyder
08-01-2010, 11:39 AM
Wayne made some good moves. No one can deny that.
But ultimately, he could not finish over .500. The team's W-L record got worse each year under his watch. Also, I bet Cast got frustrated with eating as many bad contracts as he ended up eating.

Look at all the deadweight Walt had to clean up after Walt left.. Wayne bought in some great players, but also some horrible ones.

In all fairness, I don't think you can count Franklin as a "win". Dude was horrible while he was here.

I still say that his first year sank him. The team that year overacheived and he had absolutely NOTHING of value to offer to improve the team. Which led to so much deadwood being cycled through including but not limited too...

Rick White
Esteban Yan
Kent Mercker
Sun- Who? Kim
Jason Johnson (Not the great one)

being used in the pen and rotation.

Those trades that Krivsky made that year he had to take pieces from the MLB team ("The Trade") because he had very little marketable prospects or had to give an extension to just get them to come (Cormier who at the time had a very solid numbers vs LHP). Had this team been in "it" in 07 or 08 I am sure that Krisvky would still likely be here. He struggled to recreate the magic of his first year and that is what sunk him IMO.

jojo
08-01-2010, 11:42 AM
With the exception of 2008, Cantu has been a below average player. It's really tough for me to see what role he'd have on the Reds roster that would make him indispensable.