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View Full Version : Johnny Gomes, Drew Stubbs, and Francisco Cordero



reds44
07-31-2010, 12:00 AM
Play Heisey EVERYDAY in LF.
Call up Dickerson, platoon him and Stubbs in CF.
Hope Cordero goes missing in the desert.

Have a good night.

CTA513
07-31-2010, 12:01 AM
You left out Jay Bruce

Redsfan320
07-31-2010, 12:01 AM
Gomes, Stubbs, and Bruce. They all need offensive help.

320

reds44
07-31-2010, 12:02 AM
You left out Jay Bruce
Only reason for that is because I had nobody to replace him with.

cincrazy
07-31-2010, 12:04 AM
Trade for Adam Dunn. Stick Heisey in center. Platoon Bruce and Gomes in right.

Cyclone792
07-31-2010, 12:07 AM
Gomes came into play tonight with a -0.2 WAR. The run values for defensive metrics are blown a bit out of proportion, however, Gomes' defensive play in the 10th inning was devastating. That's the prime example of a ball that a good defensive left fielder - such as Heisey - catches that Gomes just couldn't get to.

If Gomes isn't hitting - and he hasn't hit for two months - he's a massive liability.

Cordero's command is gone. His July BB/9 is 9, which means he's averaging a walk per inning. It's tough to prevent runs when you're just giving the other team baserunners like that.

oregonred
07-31-2010, 12:07 AM
Cabrera and his .640 OPS in the two-hole says hi. Votto should sue for non-support.

OnBaseMachine
07-31-2010, 12:09 AM
Add Orlando Cabrera to the group. I'm fine with Drew Stubbs in CF, he's extremely streaky with the bat but at least he plays excellent defense. I'm beyond sick and tired of watching Orlando Cabrera, Francisco Cordero, and Jonny Gomes.

Jonny Gomes has had one good month all season and has been awful the majority of the time. To make things worse, his defense is a major liability. That ball hit by Heyward in the 9th inning would have been caught by even an average defender. If Gomes can get within a foot of it then Nix or Heisey definitely catch it.

Cordero needs to go on the DL or something. At worst, he needs to be demoted from the closers role and no longer allowed to pitch in high leverage situations unless it's an emergency. I liked the deal at the time but it's becoming more and more evident that Cordero is done. He no longer has an out pitch and his control is well below average at this point.

I'm still trying to figure out why Heisey didn't hit for Bruce in the 8th. I like Jay Bruce a lot but IMO, he didn't stand a chance against a stud like Venters. Heisey (or Hanigan/Cairo) had a better chance at making contact there.

Tough, tough loss for the Reds. Once again the Reds inability to get a runner in from third base come back to bite them in the butt.

CTA513
07-31-2010, 12:09 AM
Trade for Adam Dunn. Stick Heisey in center. Platoon Bruce and Gomes in right.

Wouldn't be worth bringing him back unless the NL added the DH.

reds44
07-31-2010, 12:10 AM
To add some substance to this rant:

Career splits:
Stubbs vL .257/.311/.507/.818
Stubbs vR .242/.310/.376/687
Dickerson vL .238/.338/.317/655
Dickerson vR .281/.373/.441/.814

Don't give Stubbs a pass because he's young and his defense. Dickerosn may not be Stubbs' level, but he's good out there too.

Gomes is just bad. Outside of a month, he hasn't hit, and he never can field. Play Heisey.

REDblooded
07-31-2010, 12:10 AM
Trade for Adam Dunn. Stick Heisey in center. Platoon Bruce and Gomes in right.

Always nice to have a Ten Million Dollar Solution.... I take it you're a season ticket holder?

Cyclone792
07-31-2010, 12:11 AM
Cabrera and his .640 OPS in the two-hole says hi. Votto should sue for non-support.

That's a problem too. His 1-5 tonight didn't help matters either.

Dusty is playing a role here giving up cumulative runs in a pennant chase. The guys in front of Votto need to get on base, and if they aren't getting on base, they shouldn't be where they're at. It makes it that much more difficult to score runs when there's a guy in front of the NL MVP who gets on base as little as Taveras and Patterson.

Eric_the_Red
07-31-2010, 12:11 AM
The sky is falling!

cincrazy
07-31-2010, 12:12 AM
Wouldn't be worth bringing him back unless the NL added the DH.

Well Dunn wouldn't be any worse than Gomes currently is out there.

Bottom line, it's been a fun season. But this team needs help. Actually, it could really help ITSELF by doing a few simple things. Platoon Gomes and Bruce, start Heisey. Demote Cordero. Etc. But none of that will happen.

reds44
07-31-2010, 12:12 AM
That's a problem too. His 1-5 tonight didn't help matters either.

Dusty is playing a role here giving up cumulative runs in a pennant chase. The guys in front of Votto need to get on base, and if they aren't getting on base, they shouldn't be where they're at. It makes it that much more difficult to score runs when there's a guy in front of the NL MVP who gets on base as little as Taveras and Patterson.
Another advantage of calling up Dickerson, he can actually hit in the leadoff spot.

You'd have Dickerson/Phillips ahead of Votto, instead of Cabrera.

edabbs44
07-31-2010, 12:12 AM
Cabrera and his .640 OPS in the two-hole says hi. Votto should sue for non-support.

OC has been hitting since the break. His freakishly low babip is normalizing.

reds44
07-31-2010, 12:13 AM
The sky is falling!
No. It's not, but the Reds have IN HOUSE options that would make this team better right now.

Cyclone792
07-31-2010, 12:13 AM
The sky is falling!

Hardly.

This team has obvious weaknesses that contributed a fair amount to tonight's loss and previous losses this season. This team also has in-house solutions to fix those weaknesses, and with two months to play that's enough time for those in-house solutions to make a difference.

It's up to the Reds to figure it out though.

edabbs44
07-31-2010, 12:13 AM
The sky is falling!

One loss and the season is crumbling.

reds44
07-31-2010, 12:14 AM
Nobody is saying the sky is falling or the season is over, but there are easy ways for the Reds to better their team right now.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2010, 12:14 AM
Another advantage of calling up Dickerson, he can actually hit in the leadoff spot.

You'd have Dickerson/Phillips ahead of Votto, instead of Cabrera.

So what do you when Dickerson sneezes and ends up in intensive care?

reds44
07-31-2010, 12:15 AM
So what do you when Dickerson sneezes and ends up in intensive care?
Then you're forced to go back to Stubbs in CF everyday, which you're already doing now. So you're not going to play him because you think he might get hurt?

Falls City Beer
07-31-2010, 12:15 AM
The Reds don't have in-house solutions that will win them the Central. They might have a part here or there, but not enough.

REDblooded
07-31-2010, 12:16 AM
The sky is falling!

Not really... It's pretty tough to argue that there have been some EXTREME miscalculations regarding who plays every day at which positions...

I'm not a huge Dickerson supporter, but the reluctance to play Heisey has been absolutely baffling. Gomes had one solid month, and outside of that has been miserable in every aspect of play...

Cabrera is absolutely miscast as a two-hole hitter at this point in his career...

Bruce DOES NOT BELONG AS A 5-6 hitter in this line-up... Put him in the two-hole where he doesn't have pressure to drive in runs, allow him to see better pitches and show patience at the plate...

Despite the salary, at this point Cordero isn't a leverage arm... Dusty made sure of that when using and abusing his arm early in the season...

You can claim that the arguments are reactionary, but the fact remains that I've seen these arguments and suggestions running rampant for 2+ months by fans that "get it"....

edabbs44
07-31-2010, 12:16 AM
Then you're forced to go back to Stubbs in CF everyday, which you're already doing now. So you're not going to play him because you think he might get hurt?

I think the difference between Stubbs and Dickerson would be negligible.

SirFelixCat
07-31-2010, 12:16 AM
CoCo - Uncle.

Bruce - Should not have been allowed to hit in that spot tonight. PH him for Cairo or Heisey, plain and simple. With that said, he is really overmatched vs a LHP. Platoon or "he's only 23" outweigh the fact that we're in a pennant race?

Heisey - Needs to play every day. Platoon him w/ Bruce, imo.

Stubbs - Platoon w/ Dickerson w/ the other one playing in LF?

O-Cab - Obviously Janish is never going to play, so we're stuck here I guess.

REDblooded
07-31-2010, 12:17 AM
The Reds don't have in-house solutions that will win them the Central. They might have a part here or there, but not enough.

This is wrong... The Cards can't come close to benefiting as much as the Reds when rosters expand...

reds44
07-31-2010, 12:17 AM
Oh, and just to make sure nobody thinks I'm Jay Bruce biased.

I'd have no problem platooning him and Gomes for the rest of the season. Heisey in LF vs RHP and in RF vs LHP. Gomes in LF vs LHP and Bruce in RF vs LHP.

Bruce gets more slack from me because of his defense, though.

Ghosts of 1990
07-31-2010, 12:18 AM
Bruce is a mess. Heisey would be a mess if he played every day--that's my opinion. Made a great play tonight. As for Gomes I knew the well water would run out. Bruce and Stubbs are giving me ulcers at the plate.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2010, 12:18 AM
This is wrong... The Cards can't come close to benefiting as much as the Reds when rosters expand...

One impact guy: Chapman. In the bullpen. Print the tickets.

Cyclone792
07-31-2010, 12:18 AM
The Reds don't have in-house solutions that will win them the Central. They might have a part here or there, but not enough.

It isn't a 95 win team, but if the Cardinals aren't going to win 95 either, then the Reds have a chance if they can maximize their roster to the highest run potential. They aren't doing it, it's already cost them runs (and games), and if they continue to not do it, it'll continue to cost them runs (and games).

If this team misses the playoffs by two games or so, there is going to be an awful lot of lost run differential to look back on and shake our heads about.

Scrap Irony
07-31-2010, 12:19 AM
Bruce is killing the team just as badly as is Gomes. No, more so.

Both Rolen and Votto are on base an absolute ton in front of both Gomes and Bruce.

Gomes at least knocks them in. (A 1.000 OPS with RISP, while a small sample size, has been meaningful this season.) Bruce? Just over 600.

Bruce is just not real good right now. He vaporlocks in pressure situations and that's not what you need in your lineup despite his outstanding defense.

edabbs44
07-31-2010, 12:19 AM
You can claim that the arguments are reactionary, but the fact remains that I've seen these arguments and suggestions running rampant for 2+ months by fans that "get it"....

Fans might "get it" in the hypothetical, but the hypothetical still has to come through. Chris Dickerson isn't the likely answer to anything except the question "Who is the most likely Red to force MLB to up the 60 day DL limit?"

REDblooded
07-31-2010, 12:19 AM
One impact guy: Chapman. In the bullpen. Print the tickets.

0 impact guys, and not pulling away from the Reds... Guess you'll be watching playoff baseball in St Louis? Don't bother buying 2nd round tickets...

11larkin11
07-31-2010, 12:20 AM
Dangit, I forgot Rule Number One of the internets: Never visit RedsZone after a loss!

REDblooded
07-31-2010, 12:21 AM
Bruce is killing the team just as badly as is Gomes. No, more so.

Both Rolen and Votto are on base an absolute ton in front of both Gomes and Bruce.

Gomes at least knocks them in. (A 1.000 OPS with RISP, while a small sample size, has been meaningful this season.) Bruce? Just over 600.

Bruce is Austin Kearns right now. He vaporlocks in pressure situations and that's not what you need in your lineup despite his outstanding defense.

When both bats have played equal over the past month, but one is 3 x's the defensive player as the other, I can't see why you would choose Gomes...

If you put Bruce in the proper spot in the line-up, it would A.) allow him to see better pitches, and B.) allow him to work the count more and draw walks, vs. OCab who's terrified of facing a hitters count.

REDblooded
07-31-2010, 12:22 AM
Dangit, I forgot Rule Number One of the internets: Never visit RedsZone after a loss!

Rule number 1 of the internet is don't visit 4Chan at work...

reds44
07-31-2010, 12:22 AM
When both bats have played equal over the past month, but one is 3 x's the defensive player as the other, I can't see why you would choose Gomes...

If you put Bruce in the proper spot in the line-up, it would A.) allow him to see better pitches, and B.) allow him to work the count more and draw walks, vs. OCab who's terrified of facing a hitters count.
I agree with the first part of your post, but you can't blame where he is hitting in the lineup on why he's been bad.

CTA513
07-31-2010, 12:31 AM
Bruce could help himself out by using left and left center more.
He has plenty enough power to hit homers out to left like Votto does instead of pulling them to right.

alloverjr
07-31-2010, 12:32 AM
Rule number 1 of the internet is don't visit 4Chan at work...

I'm afraid to find out what that means

Scrap Irony
07-31-2010, 12:33 AM
I cannot imagine Bruce suddenly becoming a better hitter in a more pressure-packed spot in the order. His ability to hit is obvious when he doesn't let his head get in the way. Unfortunately, his head's in the way just as it was all last season.

That seems to be a trend and a disturbing one at that.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2010, 12:34 AM
Bruce could help himself out by using left and left center more.
He has plenty enough power to hit homers out to left like Votto does instead of pulling them to right.

I don't think it's a "pull" issue. I just don't think he's terribly good at distinguishing offspeed stuff. He looks utterly fooled nearly all the time.

Brutus
07-31-2010, 12:35 AM
I'm afraid to find out what that means

Less than 30 seconds of browsing 4chan and you would know.

dman
07-31-2010, 12:36 AM
I posted this over on the game thread, but it's worth noting again. Makes you kinda' miss what Adam Dunn did bring to the Reds in certain situations.

Stubbs has struck out in 31% of his at bats this year as a platooning outfielder.

In both 2004 and 2006, the two years that Adam Dunn had his most K's in a season, he struck out in 34% of his at bats, but was a regular and also had some decent offensive numbers to make up for it.

oregonred
07-31-2010, 12:38 AM
I posted this over on the game thread, but it's worth noting again. Makes you kinda' miss what Adam Dunn did bring to the Reds in certain situations.

Stubbs has struck out in 31% of his at bats this year as a platooning outfielder.

In both 2004 and 2006, the two years that Adam Dunn had his most K's in a season, he struck out in 34% of his at bats, but was a regular and also had some decent offensive numbers to make up for it.

Most of us miss Dunner a ton. A $10M LF solution just wasn't viable at the time.

reds44
07-31-2010, 12:39 AM
I posted this over on the game thread, but it's worth noting again. Makes you kinda' miss what Adam Dunn did bring to the Reds in certain situations.

Stubbs has struck out in 31% of his at bats this year as a platooning outfielder.

In both 2004 and 2006, the two years that Adam Dunn had his most K's in a season, he struck out in 34% of his at bats, but was a regular and also had some decent offensive numbers to make up for it.
To be fair, Stubbs doesn't platoon. That's still bad, though.

dman
07-31-2010, 12:39 AM
Most of us miss Dunner a ton. A $10M LF solution just wasn't viable at the time.

I know. It's tough being a fan of a small market team. It's like when I got my license. Went to the showroom looking at IROC Z's only to come home with a used Cavalier.

dman
07-31-2010, 12:40 AM
To be fair, Stubbs doesn't platoon. That's still bad, though.

I guess to me, if he didn't play as regularly as Dunn did, he platooned. That's what I meant.

37red
07-31-2010, 12:43 AM
Gomes who I like a lot has fallen off his intensity. Cordero hasn't had it going for him for a couple years. We need a STONG closer. One with power, spotting and of course everything else we'd like to see.

Far East
07-31-2010, 12:50 AM
Dangit, I forgot Rule Number One of the internets: Never visit RedsZone after a loss!
Tonight was a loss. So might tomorrow's day game, but probably Heisey and Nix -- who are hot -- will get an opportunity then.

*BaseClogger*
07-31-2010, 01:08 AM
A major reason Jonny Gomes is still playing is his 65 RBIs...

Tony Cloninger
07-31-2010, 01:15 AM
I don't know what makes people think that putting Bruce 2nd...will make him a better hitter...or he will see more pitches. They will give him more fastballs beacuse of Votto?

KronoRed
07-31-2010, 01:18 AM
I don't know what makes people think that putting Bruce 2nd...will make him a better hitter...or he will see more pitches. They will give him more fastballs beacuse of Votto?

Probably, certainly would be an improvement in OBP for the 2nd spot.

REDblooded
07-31-2010, 01:22 AM
Probably, certainly would be an improvement in OBP for the 2nd spot.


DING DING DING!!! A winner emerges... Also wouldn't be a TERRIBLE idea to give Votto more than 2 pitches to see while standing in the on-deck circle...

kheidg-
07-31-2010, 01:23 AM
My thoughts...

Okay I haven't watched every single inning of the year, but have watched probably 65% of the innings.

Stubbs is clueless 75% of the time at the plate. As far as gold glove defense, I've never seen it. He gets to the balls in a hurry and covers good ground but I can't say I've ever seen him make a highlight catch.

Gomes is a good hitter when he's going. When he's not going, he's swinging at balls and popping out. At least he's not taking a third strike like Stubbs. He gives good effort all the time, and that basically sums his play in the field up. He will do his best to make the plays, but more times than not - won't get there just because of range.

Cordero, I've been begging for Soria for weeks (internally). But I think even if they'd get Soria, Cordero would be still stuck where he's at due to seniority. I haven't had any faith in Cordero all year long, not do I think anyone else has.

Trade Stubbs, Stick with Gomes/Nix/Dickerson, start Heisey in CF - dependent on what you get for Stubbs.

Stubbs may amount to something nice, he may not, but really I don't think he is helping this team much at all. Take out his 3 HR game and look at his stats.

Tony Cloninger
07-31-2010, 01:31 AM
Stubbs seems to be a guess hitter all the way. After he almost caught up with that Wagner fastball .....he was not going to get another one. He had seen enough of Wagner's sliders to possibly see it coming and adjust to the fastball.....but I may make it sound easier than it is.

CTA513
07-31-2010, 01:32 AM
My thoughts...

Okay I haven't watched every single inning of the year, but have watched probably 65% of the innings.

Stubbs is clueless 75% of the time at the plate. As far as gold glove defense, I've never seen it. He gets to the balls in a hurry and covers good ground but I can't say I've ever seen him make a highlight catch.

Gomes is a good hitter when he's going. When he's not going, he's swinging at balls and popping out. At least he's not taking a third strike like Stubbs. He gives good effort all the time, and that basically sums his play in the field up. He will do his best to make the plays, but more times than not - won't get there just because of range.

Cordero, I've been begging for Soria for weeks (internally). But I think even if they'd get Soria, Cordero would be still stuck where he's at due to seniority. I haven't had any faith in Cordero all year long, not do I think anyone else has.

Trade Stubbs, Stick with Gomes/Nix/Dickerson, start Heisey in CF - dependent on what you get for Stubbs.

Stubbs may amount to something nice, he may not, but really I don't think he is helping this team much at all. Take out his 3 HR game and look at his stats.

10 HR and 44 RBIs which is still 4th on the team above guys like Phillips, Cabrera and Bruce.

He could help himself out if he cut down on the K's and learned how to bunt.

The Voice of IH
07-31-2010, 01:39 AM
Just got home from the game.... and I am frustrated.

First of all, this game should have been over in the 9th, JAY BRUCE has to get that runner in from third with less then 2 outs in the 8th. that made my stomach sick. (after he struck out the GM of the braves blew a kiss to Bruce :p:)

Stubbs needs to figure somethings out 106 strikeouts this year....I don't care if he is young, terrible.

Heiesy HAS TO PLAY MORE! how can any argue he should not? I understand that he will probably be a left fielder next year, but he needs to platoon now.

Gomes is either WAY WAY WAY overdue, or he sucks.....you decide (:thumbup:)

and finally CoCo, the Braves fans who where sitting in my area (I was in the first row down the third baseline) where laughing. When Coco comes in, it is all but over. I don't care if he leads the majors in saves, the guy does not have it anymore. bad signing for the Reds, need to get over it before he kills this team.

Sorry for the rant, I will go to bed now and try to sleep it off.

westofyou
07-31-2010, 01:59 AM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=11622



Scouts' takes on various major-leaguers:


Reds center fielder Drew Stubbs: "He's got a lot of talent but he really needs to refine his skills. He goes into some long funks where he just starts flailing at everything. If can get that under control, he has a chance to do some good things."

WVRedsFan
07-31-2010, 02:04 AM
I think theTrue. difference between Stubbs and Dickerson would be negligible.

True. Dickerson, like Bruce, is helpless against lefties. And his health issues (like every year) means you cannot count on him.

oregonred
07-31-2010, 02:10 AM
Absent a trade infusion, Dickerson in CF a couple days a week and Heisey getting 2-3 starts a week in LF/RF in a mini-platoon situation seems like the most reasonable in-house solution. The season will ride on the pitching - if they post a sub 3.6 ERA the rest of the way, print the playoff tickets. If they post a 4.1+ ERA it will be trouble in River City.

Stubbs/Bruce/Heisey look like a great defensive combo for the Big West Coast yards.

TheNext44
07-31-2010, 02:17 AM
Is it possible to put an entire thread on "ignore?"

Just kidding, this has been a very entertaining thread.

I can't wait for another one titled "Masset, Cabera, Nix" after the next loss. ;)

oregonred
07-31-2010, 02:21 AM
On the original title.

Gomes is not the problem. He is doing what is expected. Although he was not expected to be the everyday starter in a playoff chase. Cheap, no long term commitment

Subbs is not the problem. He is learning and in a perfect world Dickerson would be healthy and getting a couple starts a week. Cheap, great defender. Not the problem

Cordero, on the other hand, is sucking up 15% of the payroll and is a complete grease fire. And another year of the same. Huge problem.

Bruce is just lost, but you have to roll with that talent. The franchise isn't going to win consistently if he doesn't become an .800 OPS+ RF over the next few years.

Ghosts of 1990
07-31-2010, 02:39 AM
Bruce could help himself out by using left and left center more.
He has plenty enough power to hit homers out to left like Votto does instead of pulling them to right.

He hasn't homered in over a month.

He has two games in which he homered twice. Homered once off an eephus pitch.

I don't know how much power the guy really does have. He's pretty much a punch and judy singles hitter right now.

WVRedsFan
07-31-2010, 02:41 AM
On the original title.

Gomes is not the problem. He is doing what is expected. Although he was not expected to be the everyday starter in a playoff chase. Cheap, no long term commitment

Subbs is not the problem. He is learning and in a perfect world Dickerson would be healthy and getting a couple starts a week. Cheap, great defender. Not the problem

Cordero, on the other hand, is sucking up 15% of the payroll and is a complete grease fire. And another year of the same. Huge problem.

Bruce is just lost, but you have to roll with that talent. The franchise isn't going to win consistently if he doesn't become an .800 OPS+ RF over the next few years.Agree, but how can you afford to play Bruce every day if he is horrible against lefties? I'm willing to listen, but sending him out every freaking day ans watching him just look helpless at the plate is not something I'm fond of. Yes, he is 23 years old and others have been playing longer, but do we continue to march him out knowing he's going to fail so often? I don't know.

As for Codero, chalk this up as a Krivsky knee jerk. At the time, the team needed so much and he goes and breaks the bank on a closer with one career year? Come on, man. Colossial Fail.

Ghosts of 1990
07-31-2010, 02:45 AM
Bruce is just lost, but you have to roll with that talent. The franchise isn't going to win consistently if he doesn't become an .800 OPS+ RF over the next few years.

I'd almost guarantee you that if he doesn't begin to look like a player; by this time next season they're going to be looking to move him.

If he's not an .800 OPS+ RF next season, he'll get the chance to show what he is in another big league city. We're going on four seasons now with this guy.

Ghosts of 1990
07-31-2010, 02:46 AM
Agree, but how can you afford to play Bruce every day if he is horrible against lefties? I'm willing to listen, but sending him out every freaking day ans watching him just look helpless at the plate is not something I'm fond of. Yes, he is 23 years old and others have been playing longer, but do we continue to march him out knowing he's going to fail so often? I don't know.

As for Codero, chalk this up as a Krivsky knee jerk. At the time, the team needed so much and he goes and breaks the bank on a closer with one career year? Come on, man. Colossial Fail.

He doesn't always fail against LHP.... but when he succeeds it's usually just a single. And that single usually is with no one on base or Rolen on second and Rolen doesn't score on many hard singles.

CrackerJack
07-31-2010, 02:48 AM
On the original title.

Gomes is not the problem. He is doing what is expected. Although he was not expected to be the everyday starter in a playoff chase. Cheap, no long term commitment

Subbs is not the problem. He is learning and in a perfect world Dickerson would be healthy and getting a couple starts a week. Cheap, great defender. Not the problem

Cordero, on the other hand, is sucking up 15% of the payroll and is a complete grease fire. And another year of the same. Huge problem.

Bruce is just lost, but you have to roll with that talent. The franchise isn't going to win consistently if he doesn't become an .800 OPS+ RF over the next few years.

Sounds like the manager needs to rotate guys in and out more often to me, at SS and the OF.

And I think he's stuck with Cordero.

reds44
07-31-2010, 02:53 AM
He hasn't homered in over a month.

He has two games in which he homered twice. Homered once off an eephus pitch.

I don't know how much power the guy really does have. He's pretty much a punch and judy singles hitter right now.
Oh there's no doubt he has oodles of power. His rookie year he hit 21 in 413 ABs, and last year he hit 22 in 345 ABs. If you give him a full seasons of ABs, you're looking at mid 30's homers.

This year, 10 homers in 369 ABs.

Here's my theory on what's going on with Jay, and I could be completely wrong. Last year he had his power numbers, but he only hit .223. I think he freaked himself out, and the result of trying to hit for a higher average he zapped his own power. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he broke his wrist last year correct? Wrists injurys can zap your power as well.

Bruce is a different story completely from Gomes. Jay's rookie year his OPS+ was 97, last year 100, this year 100.

He has an OPS+ of 99 (pretty much average) as a 21-22-23 year old in the majors.

I honestly think Jay is just going through young player struggles. He's battling himself, and he's batting his approach. He's an above average player in his early twenties, I think he'll get it figured out.

Bruce has 1127 career ABs, that's nowhere near 4 season's worth. That's not even 2 season's worth.

reds44
07-31-2010, 02:57 AM
As for Orlando Cabrera, dude is old.

His line post ASB:
.358/.414/.415/.829

I've liked a lot from Dusty this year, but this is where I think he is screwing up. OC needs more time off. I don't know why he doesn't treat him similar to what he does with Rolen. Janish appears to be a capable backup, give OC more rest.

I think OC can be a productive player for this team with more rest.

Gomes, not so much.

Give Heisey the majority of playing time in LF, rest OC more, platoon Dickerson/Stubbs in CF, give Bruce some rest against tough lefties in favor of Gomes (sliding Heisey to RF) will make this team a lot better, IMO.

Big Klu
07-31-2010, 03:41 AM
Most of us miss Dunner a ton. A $10M LF solution just wasn't viable at the time.

Dunn made $13 million in 2008. He wasn't going to come back to Cincinnati for less than that. It turned out the market would bear only a 2 year/$20 million deal, but I couldn't see him returning to the Reds in 2009 for less than what he made in '08.







He hasn't homered in over a month.

He has two games in which he homered twice. Homered once off an eephus pitch.

I don't know how much power the guy really does have. He's pretty much a punch and judy singles hitter right now.


I'd almost guarantee you that if he doesn't begin to look like a player; by this time next season they're going to be looking to move him.

If he's not an .800 OPS+ RF next season, he'll get the chance to show what he is in another big league city. We're going on four seasons now with this guy.


He doesn't always fail against LHP.... but when he succeeds it's usually just a single. And that single usually is with no one on base or Rolen on second and Rolen doesn't score on many hard singles.


Oh there's no doubt he has oodles of power. His rookie year he hit 21 in 413 ABs, and last year he hit 22 in 345 ABs. If you give him a full seasons of ABs, you're looking at mid 30's homers.

This year, 10 homers in 369 ABs.

Here's my theory on what's going on with Jay, and I could be completely wrong. Last year he had his power numbers, but he only hit .223. I think he freaked himself out, and the result of trying to hit for a higher average he zapped his own power. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he broke his wrist last year correct? Wrists injurys can zap your power as well.

I honestly think Jay is just going through young player struggles. He's battling himself, and he's batting his approach. He's an above average player in his early twenties, I think he'll get it figured out.

Bruce has 1127 career ABs, that's nowhere near 4 season's worth. That's not even 2 season's worth.

I have said before (and some have disagreed with me, but I stand by it) that Bruce reminds me of a young Paul O'Neill. And with that in mind, stick with him--don't give up on him! I believe he will figure it out.

Now with that being said, the Reds could use a Glenn Braggs-type RH hitter to take the pressure off Bruce against tough lefties. However, that guy is currently the everyday starter in LF (Gomes). The solution would be to find a better LF, freeing Gomes to come off the bench. Failing that, I would be willing to give Heisey a trial in LF, though I'm not optimistic about his current chances for success as a starter. (I believe he projects better as a quality fourth OF at this time.) Nevertheless, I think I would like to see him get four or five consecutive starts and see what he's got. (Chris Welsh was championing this idea during one of the broadcasts in Milwaukee earlier this week.)



On a somewhat unrelated tangent, if the Reds were to find another OF (or if Dickerson is ever activated from the DL), would it be feasible for the Reds to cut back to 11 pitchers? They have plenty of young relievers who have already used their options, and they could shuttle several pitchers through the last one or two bullpen spots, rotating them between Cincinnati and Louisville as the need for fresh arms arises.

LoganBuck
07-31-2010, 07:30 AM
Johnny Gomes is just flailing in all aspects of his game right now. It is truly a train wreck. He can't field, can't hit, and is living off his May through early June run. I see people point out his OPS with RISP, or his RBI totals, and I just want to scream, "You are missing the point!"

This team is trying to win a World Series title at this point. The Goals are
1. Make Playoffs.
2. Win World Series

Walt cannot have this day end without making a trade or two. It has to happen.

GAC
07-31-2010, 08:31 AM
So what do you when Dickerson sneezes and ends up in intensive care?

LMAO. You owe me a cup of coffee FCB! :p:

No doubt we have some "problems" with our OFers. But to suggest that Hollywood is somehow one of the answers to that problem reeks of desperation. And I get so tired of hearing this cliche on CDick - "He knows how to get on base". That's so Dusty Bakerish.

He's got a career OB% of .367. I respect OB%; but what about the other aspects of his game?

As far as a defender I've seen him make more then his fair share of mental mistakes and poor decisions out there.

Last year, when he was healthy enough to appear in 97 games (most ever), he had a BB/K rate of .59, K'd 22% of the time,a .373 SLG %, IsoP of .59. The list goes on and on.

CDick ain't the answer. And some need to get off his bandwagon and look for answer elsewhere, regardless of their feelings on Stubbs or Gomes.

Not defending them. But CDick? Gimme a break.

Ghosts of 1990
07-31-2010, 09:15 AM
Agree with Logan.... If we don't make some kind of move it's hard to be sympathetic towards the organization. For instance, Rays just added Chad Qualls from ARI in the middle of the night. That's a guy who would help us IMHO.

jojo
07-31-2010, 10:03 AM
Hardly.

This team has obvious weaknesses that contributed a fair amount to tonight's loss and previous losses this season. This team also has in-house solutions to fix those weaknesses, and with two months to play that's enough time for those in-house solutions to make a difference.

It's up to the Reds to figure it out though.

Shortstop is probably the one that can't be dramatically fixed either in house or via trade.

osuceltic
07-31-2010, 11:30 AM
Gomes is a streak hitter. You can't discount the streaks ("other than May"). The Reds are sticking with him hoping he'll catch fire again. The league is full of hitters like that. When it's all said and done, the numbers look pretty good. Gomes's numbers look pretty good, and he's most likely somewhere near one of his valleys. Unfortunately you never know when one of those streaks are going to happen. So you keep sending him out there, hoping. Definitely not my favorite kind of player (Encarnacion was similar, although his streaks didn't seem to last as long), but Gomes is one of many of that type. If the Reds could get an upgrade and use Gomes to give Bruce a break against lefties, I'd be all for it.

Stubbs is what he is. His ceiling is as a .250 hitter with pretty good pop, great speed, and GG defense. He'll OPS around .750 at his best. As long as he brings the rest of the package, that's plenty good enough. He's another streaky guy, so we'll have to live with the cold streaks. The bottom line on both guys is everyone right now is reacting to the cold streaks. With these types of hitters, you have to live through those to get to the hot streaks. The good thing about Stubbs, unlike Gomes, is he brings value even when he isn't hitting.

Bruce, in my mind, is the bigger issue. No one is expecting more than they've gotten from Gomes or Stubbs -- in fact, both players have pretty wildly exceeded reasonable expectations. But this team is built in a way that they're counting on Bruce to be a legitimate, consistent, middle-of-the-order bat. He isn't. The age thing is legitimate, but it also would be nice to be seeing some progress. We're not. And as others have said, we're not far from the point where we're going to have to make some hard decisions about the guy.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2010, 11:55 AM
Shortstop is probably the one that can't be dramatically fixed either in house or via trade.

Starting pitcher either.

edabbs44
07-31-2010, 12:38 PM
Agree with Logan.... If we don't make some kind of move it's hard to be sympathetic towards the organization. For instance, Rays just added Chad Qualls from ARI in the middle of the night. That's a guy who would help us IMHO.

http://i12.tinypic.com/4zch639.jpg

edabbs44
07-31-2010, 12:44 PM
Shortstop is probably the one that can't be dramatically fixed either in house or via trade.

Very debatable whether or not the OF can be "dramatically" upgraded over the next 2 months in house.

Cedric
07-31-2010, 01:15 PM
Very debatable whether or not the OF can be "dramatically" upgraded over the next 2 months in house.

After watching Gomes "play" the outfield yesterday I am starting to completely understand the Heisey/Dickerson chants.

Gomes isn't remotely hitting and he is the worst defensive player on our team. He is a huge problem right now.

GAC
07-31-2010, 01:18 PM
For instance, Rays just added Chad Qualls from ARI in the middle of the night. That's a guy who would help us IMHO.

The guy has struggled all season, posting an ERA over 8 and a WHIP of 2.00. You gotta be kidding me?

Names being floated around when it comes to OFers (not named Dunn), and it is very lean, are DeJesus, Ross, Hart, and Werth.

DeJesus just went on the DL, and with Victorino also hurt the Phillies may be very reluctant to deal Werth right now. Their asking price is pretty steep. Not that enamored with Cody Ross, and reports are that the Marlins are holding back as the Braves, Yanks, and Red Sox are all pursuing him because they want some solid prospects in return. Would love to have a Corey Hart, who is being shopped by the Brewers, but again, the Brewers ain't gonna let him go cheap, want some solid prospects in return, and I don't know if they'd trade him within the division unless someone "made them an offer they couldn't refuse". Willing to do that for Hart?

So people can sit around and worry themselves to death over the current struggles of OFers like Bruce, Stubbs, or Gomes, or even SS (Cabrera) - and I don't disagree with a lot of it - but I don't see much activity at all going on around MLB with a vast majority of the teams other then them acting like people wandering through a yard sale looking for the salvageable and deals, and returning to their cars with very little.

This team could be in far worse shape right now, and that's not denying their "weaknesses". But I don't want rash decisions made, especially with some of our young talent just for the sake of this year. I still want more long term solutions found.

edabbs44
07-31-2010, 01:37 PM
After watching Gomes "play" the outfield yesterday I am starting to completely understand the Heisey/Dickerson chants.

Gomes isn't remotely hitting and he is the worst defensive player on our team. He is a huge problem right now.

That wasn't a routine play by any stretch and I don't think that it would have been an easy play for a lot of OFers. The reaction has just been overblown for obvious reasons.

I've been one of Gomes' biggest backers since last season and have been obviously unimpressed with his offensive output since the middle of June. But the question is from here on out, who is going to perform? I could see it going either way, and I don't think it is as much of a slam dunk as everyone is making it out to be. In fact, to ignore the downside of a move like this isn't the right way to assess to situation.

Heisey deserves to get additional time, no doubt. Dickerson is a #5 on this team.

dougdirt
07-31-2010, 01:50 PM
Shortstop is probably the one that can't be dramatically fixed either in house or via trade.

I would gladly take Cozart any day of the week over Cabrera. He won't be HanRam.... but he will likely be a league average shortstop tomorrow if you let him.

mth123
07-31-2010, 01:53 PM
That wasn't a routine play by any stretch and I don't think that it would have been an easy play for a lot of OFers. The reaction has just been overblown for obvious reasons.

I've been one of Gomes' biggest backers since last season and have been obviously unimpressed with his offensive output since the middle of June. But the question is from here on out, who is going to perform? I could see it going either way, and I don't think it is as much of a slam dunk as everyone is making it out to be. In fact, to ignore the downside of a move like this isn't the right way to assess to situation.

Heisey deserves to get additional time, no doubt. Dickerson is a #5 on this team.

I'm not sure that Nix isn't a better fit than Dickerson. I like Dickerson pretty well as a platoon guy in CF where the offensive bar is much lower, but he doesn't do well off the bench and I hate him in a corner.

In July, Nix has played his limited role well. .476/.560/.714/1.274. Dickerson is pretty useless when he's not in there regularly against RHP. If the Reds want to upgrade, they need to go after some one like Kelly Johnson IMO.

Roy Tucker
07-31-2010, 02:09 PM
Like many have said, great game and great crowd last night. Votto and Rolen are doing their utmost to put this team on their backs and carry it. Great atmosphere and the most fun I've had a Reds game in years.

Don't forget, this was the Braves and they are leading the NL East. When you play a good team, they know your weaknesses and will exploit them. Bruce should not have hit in the bottom of the 8th. He hasn't shown signs of understanding how to hit lefties so putting him in that situation was doomed to fail. Cox had to be licking his chops when he saw Dusty was going with that matchup.

With some guys, you can throw them into the frying pan and they'll survive. Right now, Dusty has coddle Bruce a little more and get his head on straighter. Letting him sink in sink or swim situations doesn't help.

Cabrera is all right. Play Janish a little more to rest him.

Stubbs needs to talk to BP. Phillips has made himself into a very capable MLB hitter. He used to be a clueless hacker. Stubbs needs to mature and get a clue about having an approach at the plate. Right now, he just guesses and swings at what he guessed at, not what the pitch *is*. He needs a better eye, cut his swing down in some situations, and learn to hit where the ball is pitched.

Falls City Beer
07-31-2010, 02:11 PM
The Reds right now have three #8 hole hitters.

Homer Bailey
07-31-2010, 08:09 PM
Reds are 8-1-1 in their last 10 series. Frankie say relax.

kheidg-
07-31-2010, 11:09 PM
I would gladly take Cozart any day of the week over Cabrera. He won't be HanRam.... but he will likely be a league average shortstop tomorrow if you let him.

You would throw Cozart in at SS in the middle of a pennant race? Whatever you are smoking, I will take two.

Cabrera hasn't been all world but he has been decent in the middle, and you can't really put a measure on what he brings to the clubhouse. He's come up with quite a few big hits and made quite a few great plays at SS that I have seen this season.

If anyone needs to go or sit every other day it is none other than Drew Stubbs.

Homer Bailey
07-31-2010, 11:34 PM
12 days ago, Stubbs had a .756 OPS. Did anyone say he should be benched then? A 12 day cold streak and now he needs a platoon partner? Did the last 12 really change anyone's opinion on Drew Stubbs?

CaiGuy
08-01-2010, 01:20 AM
Gomes' career UZR/150 in the OF is 18.6. This year it is 21.7, worse among ML left fielders.

As a reference, Adam Dunn has a 13.3 career UZR/150 in the OF.

His done some nice things for the Reds by hitting in some big runs, but the guy's overall game is really dragging the team now. He is below replacement level.

mth123
08-01-2010, 05:19 AM
12 days ago, Stubbs had a .756 OPS. Did anyone say he should be benched then? A 12 day cold streak and now he needs a platoon partner? Did the last 12 really change anyone's opinion on Drew Stubbs?

12 Days didn't, but sometimes a jolt is needed to get out of a 1 for 36 funk. The combination of Stubbs slump, the need for a roster spot to activate Dickerson, the need to get Heisey more PT and Laynce Nix hot streak makes me think Stubbs to AAA for a couple weeks to get on track with a Heisey/Dickerson platoon in CF would be a good idea for now. If Stubbs gets going, its worth iit to bring him back up and put him back in CF. Maybe a phantom DL stint with a rehab rather than a straight optioning would work better.

edabbs44
08-01-2010, 01:41 PM
Gomes' career UZR/150 in the OF is 18.6. This year it is 21.7, worse among ML left fielders.

As a reference, Adam Dunn has a 13.3 career UZR/150 in the OF.

His done some nice things for the Reds by hitting in some big runs, but the guy's overall game is really dragging the team now. He is below replacement level.

That means Gomes has been on the upswing. He was exceeding -30 a short while ago.

Reds1
08-01-2010, 02:22 PM
It is funny. I've spent a few minutes reading some of the top posts and if you just read them you would have no idea the Reds are 1/2 game out and playing well. They just beat the 1st place Braves and have maybe the best player in all of NL. Rolen is hot. We have the best young arms in the game and made some moves to potential help the bullpen. Burton doing better and Chapman has been doing well of late. I'm going to sit back and enjoy. I wish a move for Scott Downs was made, but the riight deal must not have been there.

Redsfan320
08-01-2010, 02:37 PM
The Reds are awesome this year, yes. It's just that many of us think they could be even better.

320

Falls City Beer
08-01-2010, 02:41 PM
The Reds are awesome this year, yes. It's just that many of us think they could be even better.

320

That's about the long and the short of it.

And don't kid yourself: if the Reds miss the playoffs by two games, the groans of the "Walt knows what he's doing; shut up!" crowd will be every bit as loud as they mingle with the rest of us.

edabbs44
08-01-2010, 02:51 PM
That's about the long and the short of it.

And don't kid yourself: if the Reds miss the playoffs by two games, the groans of the "Walt knows what he's doing; shut up!" crowd will be every bit as loud as they mingle with the rest of us.

Not from me. Sure I'll be disappointed, but I won't be taking inventory of what could've been.

jojo
08-01-2010, 02:52 PM
That means Gomes has been on the upswing. He was exceeding -30 a short while ago.

Sometimes faint praise makes the best comedy.

Falls City Beer
08-01-2010, 02:54 PM
Not from me. Sure I'll be disappointed, but I won't be taking inventory of what could've been.

I know, I know: the window of 2000, 2003, 2008, 2010 is now 2011-13. I've received the memo.

edabbs44
08-01-2010, 02:59 PM
Sometimes faint praise makes the best comedy.

Yeah, that was a bit tongue in cheek. But was also a veiled reference to the comical -36 thread from earlier this year.

edabbs44
08-01-2010, 03:02 PM
I know, I know: the window of 2000, 2003, 2008, 2010 is now 2011-13. I've received the memo.

With this guy, I'm not all that concerned about windows. The window may be open for an extended period. I have that much confidence.

OnBaseMachine
08-01-2010, 06:33 PM
Say what you want about Cordero, he's been very frustrating to watch this season but he seems like a likable guy and always takes responsibility.

From Brian Giesenschlag:

Dusty Baker lauds tired bullpen for always taking the ball when needed. Francisco Cordero says "I get paid way too much not to." Refreshing.

http://twitter.com/FOX19Brian

OnBaseMachine
08-15-2010, 11:06 PM
*Bump*

With the Reds having games coming up in spacious Dodger Stadium and AT&T Park, I hope Gomes is on the bench for the whole trip. The Reds need to put their best defensive outfield on the field in those ballparks, IMO.

I just wish the Reds would end the Gomes experient for good. I don't understand why he continues to start, especially against right-handers. Watching him this weekend was painful. As I've said before, I like having him on the bench and as an occasional starter vs lefties, but he's simply not an everyday player. He's OPS'd .704 or lower in every month but May and his defense is a huge liability. I'm hoping the Reds soon realize this and start playing Edmonds/Heisey and even Nix more in left field.

Ron Madden
08-16-2010, 02:53 AM
Gomes will get the lions share of playing time in LF, Dusty calls him a RBI guy.