PDA

View Full Version : Too many Reds' minor leaguers having bad years affected the Reds at the deadline



Blitz Dorsey
07-31-2010, 06:57 PM
Imagine the trades the Reds could have made if guys like Todd Frazier and Yonder Alonso were even playing anywhere near the zip code where we thought they'd be this year. The M's wanted nothing to do with Alonso (much-preferred Smoak who was drafted after Alonso in the same draft) and Frazier has no trade value either. It's too bad these "top prospects" are having such poor years or I have no doubt that the Reds would have been able to flip them for good Major League talent that would have helped in the pennant race. Instead, we're standing pat, and I have no doubt it's because of guys like Frazier and Alonso underachieving this year. Guys we thought would have big years ... instead they are mediocre AAA players.

dougdirt
07-31-2010, 07:02 PM
The Reds offered Mesoraco, Alonso and more for Lee. Had Alonso been hitting better, Mesoraco wouldn't have been offered and the Mariners probably still take the guy in the major leagues over Alonso +. Blame Joey Votto for being really good rather than Alonso for being hurt.

GIDP
07-31-2010, 07:09 PM
Thank god Alonso wasnt hitting better if thats true.

muddie
07-31-2010, 07:09 PM
I have no complaints with what we have at this point. I still believe that the talent already exists within this organization to win. It will require some decisions upstairs or in the dugout to make it happen, but the talent exists.

PuffyPig
07-31-2010, 08:13 PM
As a group the Reds minors leaguers are doing very good.

bubbachunk
07-31-2010, 08:24 PM
Your over reactive sky is falling posts get rather bothersome to read. You clearly have not been paying enough attention to the minor leagues this year to comment. Both Frazier and Alonso have turned their seasons around in the past month+. The only real target the Reds missed out on was Lee and the fact could have been the M's liked Smoak better regardless of how Alonso was hitting (Smoak is not exactly putting up great numbers either).

Blitz Dorsey
07-31-2010, 08:46 PM
Your over reactive sky is falling posts get rather bothersome to read. You clearly have not been paying enough attention to the minor leagues this year to comment. Both Frazier and Alonso have turned their seasons around in the past month+. The only real target the Reds missed out on was Lee and the fact could have been the M's liked Smoak better regardless of how Alonso was hitting (Smoak is not exactly putting up great numbers either).

I am glad you have been impressed with how they have performed the last three weeks. It's too bad there was not an MLB team that was equally as impressed and willing to trade for one of them. Said MLB teams probably looked at their overall numbers and not just the last three weeks.

dougdirt
07-31-2010, 08:50 PM
I am glad you have been impressed with how they have performed the last three weeks. It's too bad there was not an MLB team that was equally as impressed and willing to trade for one of them. Said MLB teams probably looked at their overall numbers and not just the last three weeks.

By all accounts, scouts still like Yonder Alonso a whole lot. I think the reason he is still a Red is because the Mariners liked Justin Smoak a little more and it had nothing to do with his 2010 season. The next 'big trade' just wasn't there to be made.

GIDP
07-31-2010, 08:53 PM
I am glad you have been impressed with how they have performed the last three weeks. It's too bad there was not an MLB team that was equally as impressed and willing to trade for one of them. Said MLB teams probably looked at their overall numbers and not just the last three weeks.

Yea their overall numbers say they are good players also. Unless you are saying only the last years stats count then arent you kinda mocking your own point?

bubbachunk
07-31-2010, 08:54 PM
I am glad you have been impressed with how they have performed the last three weeks. It's too bad there was not an MLB team that was equally as impressed and willing to trade for one of them. Said MLB teams probably looked at their overall numbers and not just the last three weeks.

Then that would have been completely short sided. Both guys have proven track records whether it be in the minors or college ball. Also prospects are about project-ability and talent, not just pure numbers.

See Mes last year, his numbers looked like garbage but the scouting reports were positive. If the Reds had given up on him they would been screwing themselves over as he has proven this year with numbers to back it up.

aubashbrother
07-31-2010, 11:26 PM
Imagine the trades the Reds could have made if guys like Todd Frazier and Yonder Alonso were even playing anywhere near the zip code where we thought they'd be this year. The M's wanted nothing to do with Alonso (much-preferred Smoak who was drafted after Alonso in the same draft) and Frazier has no trade value either. It's too bad these "top prospects" are having such poor years or I have no doubt that the Reds would have been able to flip them for good Major League talent that would have helped in the pennant race. Instead, we're standing pat, and I have no doubt it's because of guys like Frazier and Alonso underachieving this year. Guys we thought would have big years ... instead they are mediocre AAA players.


cry much :cry:

Kingspoint
07-31-2010, 11:42 PM
Everyone else's loss is our gain.

Can't fault a "small-market" organization for not wanting to "sell low" and "buy high".

While 2010 is all fine and good, 2011-2016 are more important years for this organization and they should have better teams during those seasons.

I don't think it's wise to "go for the gold" the first time you smell first place in 10 years at the half-way mark of the season, when being where we are isn't some sort of fluke but a by-product of the last 5 seasons of drafts, trades, and well-monitored growth, with a tremendous amount of patience thrown in to boot.

The state of the Cincinnati REDS Baseball Club is A++ right now.

redsmetz
08-01-2010, 08:24 AM
Everyone else's loss is our gain.

Can't fault a "small-market" organization for not wanting to "sell low" and "buy high".

While 2010 is all fine and good, 2011-2016 are more important years for this organization and they should have better teams during those seasons.

I don't think it's wise to "go for the gold" the first time you smell first place in 10 years at the half-way mark of the season, when being where we are isn't some sort of fluke but a by-product of the last 5 seasons of drafts, trades, and well-monitored growth, with a tremendous amount of patience thrown in to boot.

The state of the Cincinnati REDS Baseball Club is A++ right now.

This is about the best statement about the "win now" "win long" discussion on RZ. Certainly, I as a fan want the club to succeed this year; it's been a very very long time, but I don't want to sacrifice the near term future (5-6 years) simply to placate disgruntled fans who ache for the immediate right now.

Well said, Kingspoint.

mth123
08-01-2010, 08:52 AM
This is about the best statement about the "win now" "win long" discussion on RZ. Certainly, I as a fan want the club to succeed this year; it's been a very very long time, but I don't want to sacrifice the near term future (5-6 years) simply to placate disgruntled fans who ache for the immediate right now.
Well said, Kingspoint.

I don't get this part. Who has suggested sacrificing the near term future? The suggestions center on upgrading the roster by dealing pieces that probably aren't as good as the ones already holding spots in Cincy. I would have been against a deal of guys who have a clear path to the roster like Cozart, Mesoraco, Chapman, Donnie Jospeh or some of the real young guys like Hamilton, Yorman, Duran, Guillon, Correa, Hotchkiss, Arias and Grandal. But there are a number of players who could probably help a major league team who are near ready and just don't seem to have a spot during that 5 year window.

Matt Maloney and Sam Lecure? Are they better than Cueto, Volquez, Leake, Bailey, Chapman or Wood? No. Can the role of depth not be replaced by some 6 year free agents and the advancement of guys like Matt Klinker? Yes. Dealing these guys would have no impact on the 5 or 6 year window.

Phil Valiquette, Carlos Fisher, Enerio Del Rosario, Danny Rae Herera and Bill Bray? Are these interchangeable parts going to be missed? Really? No one is suggesting dealing all of them. There will still be depth.

Yonder Alonso? Is he going to supplant the current NL Leader in AVE, OBP, Slugging Percentage, Total Bases and Homers? No. Dealing him won't impact the window.

Todd Frazier? Does he have enough bat to get serious consideration in a corner or enough glove to be taken seriously up the middle? Probably no on both counts. He might be an option at 3B, but the Reds have an MVP candidate there who is signed for a couple more years. He'd be a pretty good bench player IMO, but will dealing a future bench player really impact the next 5 years so negatively that he can't be included in a deal for an upgrade?

Chris Valaika? See Todd Frazier.

Chris Dickerson? Wlad Balentien? Juan Francisco? David Sappelt? Danny Dorn? No room at the Inn boys.

Chris Heisey and Travis Wood? These would sting a little, but they are both likely supporting cast members in the 5 or 6 year window. They would only be dealt for impact guys and hopefully not for rentals, but I'd have included either in a deal for Cliff Lee.

Every year during the contention window the team is going to be faced with a decision to deal some excess for help where its needed. That isn't anything new. Its no different than the Big Red Machine picking up Freddie Norman or the 1990 team adding Mariano Duncan or Bill Doran. These acquisitions don't have to be Cliff Lee or Manny Ramirez to improve the team and it isn't anything new.

_Sir_Charles_
08-01-2010, 01:05 PM
The Reds offered Mesoraco, Alonso and more for Lee. Had Alonso been hitting better, Mesoraco wouldn't have been offered and the Mariners probably still take the guy in the major leagues over Alonso +. Blame Joey Votto for being really good rather than Alonso for being hurt.

Are you guessing this? Because I haven't seen it reported anywhere what the Reds actually offered. Just speculation on the part of reporters.

dougdirt
08-01-2010, 01:39 PM
Are you guessing this? Because I haven't seen it reported anywhere what the Reds actually offered. Just speculation on the part of reporters.

I heard from a scout that the Reds made that offer and were the favorites to land Lee until the Rangers put Justin Smoak on the table.

HokieRed
08-01-2010, 01:45 PM
I heard from a scout that the Reds made that offer and were the favorites to land Lee until the Rangers put Justin Smoak on the table.

Sounds like the M's may have used us to get the deal they wanted. Nothing wrong with that. Frankly I'm glad they did. I like having Alonso.

camisadelgolf
08-01-2010, 03:04 PM
I'm a fan of giving up Alonso, Mesoraco, and more for Cliff Lee if the Reds plan on keeping him around. Otherwise, I'm mostly glad the deal didn't happen.

_Sir_Charles_
08-01-2010, 03:38 PM
I heard from a scout that the Reds made that offer and were the favorites to land Lee until the Rangers put Justin Smoak on the table.

Thanks. I hadn't heard anything about who was offered.

Mario-Rijo
08-01-2010, 04:07 PM
This is about the best statement about the "win now" "win long" discussion on RZ. Certainly, I as a fan want the club to succeed this year; it's been a very very long time, but I don't want to sacrifice the near term future (5-6 years) simply to placate disgruntled fans who ache for the immediate right now.

Well said, Kingspoint.

This is what is bothersome to me and RM not trying to pick at you but this idea that it's either win now or win later. If Walt is worth his salt as a talent evaluator then we can make deals now to improve and not harm our future whatsoever. Heck with some of the prospects being shipped around this season we could have made deals without touching anyone of note down on the farm without even being shrewd. And it's not about placating fans but taking advantage of an opportunity when it presents itself.

Mario-Rijo
08-01-2010, 04:11 PM
I heard from a scout that the Reds made that offer and were the favorites to land Lee until the Rangers put Justin Smoak on the table.

Interesting Mes and Alonso + for a rental, terrible and glad the M's didn't accept it. Just give 'em away Walt!!

Mario-Rijo
08-01-2010, 04:12 PM
cry much :cry:

Seriously??? Come on man!

Roush's socks
08-01-2010, 04:54 PM
I don't think the Reds could have landed a major piece without giving up some of their better minor league talent. Frazier, Maloney, LeCure, and those kind of guys aren't going to land a stud player.

Mario-Rijo
08-01-2010, 05:14 PM
I don't think the Reds could have landed a major piece without giving up some of their better minor league talent. Frazier, Maloney, LeCure, and those kind of guys aren't going to land a stud player.

I'll subtract Frazier from that statement as I think more highly of him than most.

That said there were a few good prospects moved at the deadline but mostly not. A piece critical to us might not be construed as a "major piece" also. For example Kelly Johnson is a guy who could have paid huge dividends in a backup UT role but wouldn't have costed an arm and a leg. At most it would have cost a Maloney/Lecure and maybe Valaika package. I know one thing when this team is in tough spot against a tough righty reliever down the stretch I would much rather have Kelly Johnson on hand than Nix or Dickerson neither of which hits breaking balls very well but Johnson does.

Could mean the difference between playoffs or not and could be had without including a top prospect.

redsmetz
08-01-2010, 09:13 PM
I don't get this part. Who has suggested sacrificing the near term future? The suggestions center on upgrading the roster by dealing pieces that probably aren't as good as the ones already holding spots in Cincy. I would have been against a deal of guys who have a clear path to the roster like Cozart, Mesoraco, Chapman, Donnie Jospeh or some of the real young guys like Hamilton, Yorman, Duran, Guillon, Correa, Hotchkiss, Arias and Grandal. But there are a number of players who could probably help a major league team who are near ready and just don't seem to have a spot during that 5 year window.

Matt Maloney and Sam Lecure? Are they better than Cueto, Volquez, Leake, Bailey, Chapman or Wood? No. Can the role of depth not be replaced by some 6 year free agents and the advancement of guys like Matt Klinker? Yes. Dealing these guys would have no impact on the 5 or 6 year window.

Phil Valiquette, Carlos Fisher, Enerio Del Rosario, Danny Rae Herera and Bill Bray? Are these interchangeable parts going to be missed? Really? No one is suggesting dealing all of them. There will still be depth.

Yonder Alonso? Is he going to supplant the current NL Leader in AVE, OBP, Slugging Percentage, Total Bases and Homers? No. Dealing him won't impact the window.

Todd Frazier? Does he have enough bat to get serious consideration in a corner or enough glove to be taken seriously up the middle? Probably no on both counts. He might be an option at 3B, but the Reds have an MVP candidate there who is signed for a couple more years. He'd be a pretty good bench player IMO, but will dealing a future bench player really impact the next 5 years so negatively that he can't be included in a deal for an upgrade?

Chris Valaika? See Todd Frazier.

Chris Dickerson? Wlad Balentien? Juan Francisco? David Sappelt? Danny Dorn? No room at the Inn boys.

Chris Heisey and Travis Wood? These would sting a little, but they are both likely supporting cast members in the 5 or 6 year window. They would only be dealt for impact guys and hopefully not for rentals, but I'd have included either in a deal for Cliff Lee.

Every year during the contention window the team is going to be faced with a decision to deal some excess for help where its needed. That isn't anything new. Its no different than the Big Red Machine picking up Freddie Norman or the 1990 team adding Mariano Duncan or Bill Doran. These acquisitions don't have to be Cliff Lee or Manny Ramirez to improve the team and it isn't anything new.

I think we're in agreement. I think we've got plenty to use as chips. I'm not sure why a move wasn't made, although my guess would be that clubs wanted to many of our available players without a return that improves the club much, but again, that's just my guess. We may have to make some moves as some of this year's players come off the DL as the season's end nears. Even with the rosters expanding in September, some of those DL guys are on the 60 day DL and have to find a spot on the 40 man roster.

I do think the off-season is going to be very interesting though.