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OnBaseMachine
08-01-2010, 07:23 PM
From Hal McCoy:


ATLANTA MANAGER Bobby Cox, on his farewell tour before retirement while leading his team toward an NL East championship, is impressed with the Reds and said he’d love an Atlanta-Cincinnati playoff series.

“I like that team,” said Cox. “Their pitching seems to be good, they have a nice bullpen and they have Joey Votto and Scott Rolen. Votto is impressive, but even more so is Rolen. He’s the best professional player, just the best. He plays it the way it is supposed to be played and he is playing it at a high calibre right now. You know he is not 100 per cent every day, but he doesn’t show it, especially with his back problems.

“His hamstring is bothering him?” Cox said. “Well, his hamstring may be bothering him but he is still the best baserunner they have. And Votto is a good baserunner, too.”

Cox mentioned the home run Votto hit Friday off relief pitcher Takashi Saito, the only home run Saito has given up in his career. “That came off one of the best relievers in baseball,” he said. “Impressive.”


http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2010/08/01/somebody_told_cincinnati_reds.html?cxtype=feedbot

I like Bobby Cox, it seems like he's always got something nice to say about the Reds.

WVRed
08-01-2010, 07:43 PM
From Hal McCoy:



http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2010/08/01/somebody_told_cincinnati_reds.html?cxtype=feedbot

I like Bobby Cox, it seems like he's always got something nice to say about the Reds.

As much as I like it, it's probably flattery leading up to a possible playoff series.

Bobby Cox is one of my favorite managers, but this is coachspeak IMO.

Ghosts of 1990
08-01-2010, 07:45 PM
Votto didn't homer off Takashi Saito on Friday, it was off Johnny Venters FWIW.

Gonna miss Cox in a strange way. Always nice to hear a guy with so much knowledge and who tells it like it is saying good things about our squad.

The Voice of IH
08-01-2010, 07:49 PM
all Cox will ever be known for is playoff disappointments and ejections. sorry, not a fan at all.

cincrazy
08-01-2010, 08:03 PM
all Cox will ever be known for is playoff disappointments and ejections. sorry, not a fan at all.

Five pennants and a World Series ring speak for themselves, my friend.

George Anderson
08-01-2010, 08:08 PM
Five pennants and a World Series ring speak for themselves, my friend.

Also a run of 14 straight years with a division title from 1991 to 2005. I can't see how he wont be Cooperstown bound.

Ron Madden
08-01-2010, 08:12 PM
Also a run of 14 straight years with a division title from 1991 to 2005. I can't see how he wont be Cooperstown bound.

Yep, I believe Bobby Cox is a lock to make the HOF.

cincrazy
08-01-2010, 08:18 PM
If Bobby Cox isn't a lock to make the HOF, there is no such thing as a lock.

Danny Serafini
08-01-2010, 08:26 PM
Cox is going to the HOF. At the same time, when you win 14 straight divisions and only one World Series it's certainly fair to talk about playoff disappointments.

OnBaseMachine
08-01-2010, 08:38 PM
If Bobby Cox isn't a lock to make the HOF, there is no such thing as a lock.

Agreed.

UKFlounder
08-01-2010, 08:39 PM
I personally hate the "14 straight divisions" point - they did not win it in 1994- the Expos were in 1st place when the strike hit. I know it's a moot point as baseball decided how to count records, but it still irritates me to see that.

That said, Cox' longevity and consistent winning since he went back to Atlanta in the late 80s has been remarkable and definitely HOF worthy.

Did anybody see the article on him in last weeks Sports Illustrated? It was very good.

MWM
08-01-2010, 08:45 PM
Cox might be a great manager, but he hit a woman and I can't get past that. He's a jerk, IMO.

Falls City Beer
08-01-2010, 08:47 PM
Bobby Cox was a great villain, and great villains deserve our respect.

blumj
08-01-2010, 08:48 PM
Votto didn't homer off Takashi Saito on Friday, it was off Johnny Venters FWIW.



And Saito has given up HRs in his career before. If he'd been around this long and hadn't, it would be pretty incredible and well known.

Scrap Irony
08-01-2010, 09:08 PM
Might be the best regular season manager in baseball history.

Certainly the only first ballot manager I can think of.

REDblooded
08-01-2010, 09:15 PM
Cox might be a great manager, but he hit a woman and I can't get past that. He's a jerk, IMO.

I don't get why so many men are afraid of women... It's like, you'll hit a guy if provoked, but if a woman provokes you, most guys get all scared of them and run away...





kidding of course.

Falls City Beer
08-01-2010, 09:16 PM
Cox might be a great manager, but he hit a woman and I can't get past that. He's a jerk, IMO.

Really? I actually didn't know that. That sucks.

westofyou
08-01-2010, 09:39 PM
all Cox will ever be known for is playoff disappointments and ejections. sorry, not a fan at all.

Pure BS, Bobby was managing when I was as old as you are, Cito Gaston was on his 1st team.

He's a legend.

Spitball
08-01-2010, 09:46 PM
Might be the best regular season manager in baseball history.

Certainly the only first ballot manager I can think of.

Due to his success and managing in big markets, I wouldn't be surprised to see Torre get in on the first ballot. LaRussa might be a lock also.

Degenerate39
08-01-2010, 09:47 PM
I would've had some success at managing with Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine. Just sayin'

KronoRed
08-01-2010, 09:48 PM
Also a run of 14 straight years with a division title from 1991 to 2005. I can't see how he wont be Cooperstown bound.

The 94 Expos call shananigans ;)

Spitball
08-01-2010, 09:50 PM
Really? I actually didn't know that. That sucks.

I believe he hit his wife back in the mid 1990s.

Slyder
08-01-2010, 09:51 PM
The 94 Expos call shananigans ;)

14 out of 15 straight years with division championships isnt bad either :P.

UKFlounder
08-01-2010, 10:01 PM
The recent SI article talks about that incident, but his wife said he did not hit her at a press conference after the incident.




I believe he hit his wife back in the mid 1990s.

fearofpopvol1
08-01-2010, 10:14 PM
Cox might be a great manager, but he hit a woman and I can't get past that. He's a jerk, IMO.

No offense, but isn't it a little hypocritical that you said you don't judge Tiger Woods for what he does in his private life, but you are with Cox in his?

I am not saying either incident(s) is right or wrong, just saying.

Falls City Beer
08-01-2010, 10:19 PM
No offense, but isn't it a little hypocritical that you said you don't judge Tiger Woods for what he does in his private life, but you are with Cox in his?

I am not saying either incident(s) is right or wrong, just saying.

Adultery's not nice, but it's also not illegal.

Always Red
08-01-2010, 10:19 PM
Pure BS, Bobby was managing when I was as old as you are, Cito Gaston was on his 1st team.

He's a legend.

Quoted for truth.

If all a person knows about Bobby Cox is that he argues with umps, gets kicked out of games a lot, and maybe struck his wife 15 years ago, then they do not know anything about baseball.

Cox is one of the greatest. And everyone who really knows him, loves him.

I'm starting to wonder about this place...:eek:

Always Red
08-01-2010, 10:20 PM
I would've had some success at managing with Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine. Just sayin'

And if you had the luck to manage the Big Red Machine, you'd be in the Hall of Fame! :beerme:

The Voice of IH
08-01-2010, 10:34 PM
I would've had some success at managing with Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine. Just sayin'

yep, he made a living off of John Schuerholz hard work

UKFlounder
08-01-2010, 10:43 PM
Actually, wasn't Cox the GM of the Braves in the late 80s, perhaps early 90s, that made some of the acquisitions that helped the turnaround? I don't remember when he went from GM to manager, but I believe Smoltz and perhaps Chipper Jones were acquired while he was still GM, and maybe others


yep, he made a living off of John Schuerholz hard work

cincinnati chili
08-01-2010, 10:46 PM
Adultery's not nice, but it's also not illegal.

Then again, if I had to choose between my wife punching me in the face and getting arrested or my wife having sex with a porn star and 18 other guys, I'd choose the former.

:)

As for my thought on Cox, the manager. He's improved as a tactician over time. That can happen when an organization sticks with you for a couple decades. I firmly believe that Cox made the wrong decision in the 9th inning of the final game of the 1995 World Series by taking out Glavine when he was pitching a shutout. If Wohlers had given up a homer and they lost (and he almost did... one ball to the warning track), we'd think of Bobby Cox a lot like we think of Mike Hargrove or Bobby Valentine, especially if he lost his job as a result.

Edskin
08-01-2010, 11:01 PM
In regards to the SI article...the basic impression you get is that Cox is beloved by just about everyone on the baseball side of his life. He treats everyone from his players to the bat boys with respect and care--- it mentions him even sending money to former players down on their luck.

The article doesn't go too in-depth about his personal life, but it certainly paints the picture that much of his baseball life/success came at the expense of his home life. Just going off my impressions here.....Cox tried to be a good husband/Dad, but nothing could quite grab him like baseball did, so that is where he poured his heart and soul.

His daughter defends him in the article, but she does say that ultimately, he loves baseball more than anything, including his family.

Reminds me a bit of Joe Gibbs prior to 1992.....absolutely the guy you want running your team, but it would be very hard to be his wife/children.

westofyou
08-01-2010, 11:04 PM
Actually, wasn't Cox the GM of the Braves in the late 80s, perhaps early 90s, that made some of the acquisitions that helped the turnaround? I don't remember when he went from GM to manager, but I believe Smoltz and perhaps Chipper Jones were acquired while he was still GM, and maybe others
Yes he was the GM for 4 years prior to managing the Braves the 2nd time.

As for human transgressions, that's a subject that doesn't play into his managing a baseball team self, nor a study on that aspect of his existence.

George Anderson
08-01-2010, 11:13 PM
yep, he made a living off of John Schuerholz hard work

•In 1985, Bobby Cox re-joined the Atlanta Braves as their General Manager. Making some remarkable trades and draft picks along the way, he knew he was building a long lasting powerhouse on and off the mound. He drafted players such as Steve Avery, Ron Gant and David Justice and acquired John Smoltz in a trade with the Detroit Tigers. Cox also brought up Tom Glavine in 1987

http://www.athbaseball.com/20100329245/2010-archives/march/bobby-cox-is-the-atlanta-braves.html

15fan
08-02-2010, 12:30 AM
14 division titles, 1 WS.

Cox & the Braves have generally had a few fatal flaws over the years. In the 15 years I've lived here, these are the things that I've seen several times over.

1) Lack of a bona fide closer and a generally suspect bullpen. Go back & look at the guys who have closed for the Braves during Cox's run. Kerry Ligtenberg. Chris Reitsma. Dan Kolb. John Rocker. Greg McMichael. Mike Stanton. Alejandro Pena. They got a couple of good years from Mark Wohlers before he lost it, and then a few more good years from Smoltz. But more often than not, Cox's closers have been the flavor du jour of the year & certainly weren't the lights-out guys that most playoff teams generally have.

2) They got lulled to sleep by playing in a division that year in & year out was pretty weak. Montreal / Washington, Florida, Philly & the Mets. In any given year, one of those teams might have been a playoff contender. But generally they were teams that were inept (Montreal/Washington), rebuilding (Florida), and/or dysfunctional (Philly/NYM). When you can run Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz out there against AAA to AAAA lineups regularly, you've got a good shot at putting away the division early.

3) Early during the run, Cox would always always always hamstring himself by having a weak bench. They rarely had a bat to pull off the bench to come up with a big hit in the playoffs. This was exacerbated by his proclivity to carry a 3rd catcher on his 25 man roster for the post-season. By doing so, he limited his options for a pinch hitter / pinch runner / late defensive replacement.

But the thing that will always stand out about Cox is this game:

9/24/02 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI200209240.shtml)

The Braves ran away with the NL East that year, finishing 19 games ahead of 2nd place Montreal. During the final week of the season with the division already in hand, you'd think that the manager would ease off his workhorses and set things for the playoffs.

Not Bobby Cox.

On a cool night in Philadelphia in a completely meaningless game, Cox left Tom Glavine out on the mound to throw 129 pitches in a 5-3 loss to the Phillies.

Not surprisingly, Glavine pitched like crap when called upon to go in the NLDS a week later. In game 1, the Giants roughed him up for 10 hits & 6 runs (all earned) in 5 innings. The Braves came back to take a 2-1 lead in the series. In Game 4, Glavine was even worse. He gave up 7 ER in 2.2 innings.

There was a lot of vitriol spewed towards Glavine when the Braves flamed out, and even more when he left after the season for NY. But the fact of the matter is that Cox rode Glavine hard with absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose. Cox wasn't going to win a post-season series in Philly on 9/24/02.

But he sure as heck lost one.

kaldaniels
08-02-2010, 12:41 AM
Editors note - In the above post Tom Glavine is said to have thrown 129 pitches in the 9/24/02 game vs. Phil. He actually threw 124 pitches and also issued one IBB. We apologize for our error.

Seriously, of course Bobby overdid it that night. But 124 pitches with a IBB included is not as outrageous as 129 pitches.

WVPacman
08-02-2010, 12:46 AM
Cox is a good manager but he had alot of help threw the years to become a good manager.The Alanta Braves for years bought players(like yankees)spent money like it grew on trees.He always had one of the top best teams every year b/c of the braves buying players and trying to buy a title.I think when people look back at the Braves during the time he managed that people will say that the braves was a huge dissapointment.

I would have loved to have seen Cox manage a average MLB team then we would see just how good he really is.JMO

fearofpopvol1
08-02-2010, 01:37 AM
Adultery's not nice, but it's also not illegal.

Immoral is immoral and wrong is wrong, whether it's "illegal" or not in my opinion...but this is probably the wrong forum to get into all that.

If the poster's original argument centered around "private life," holding 1 person accountable for something that happened privately and not the other, in my opinion, is hypocritical.

pedro
08-02-2010, 02:14 AM
I believe he hit his wife back in the mid 1990s.

Yes, he was involved in a domestic dispute where he reportedly hit his wife. I lived in Atlanta from 1993-2003 though and it was by all accounts a one time incident. Still inexcusable but I don't believe he was/is a serial abuser.

As a manager he is amongst the best ever IMO.

pedro
08-02-2010, 02:15 AM
yep, he made a living off of John Schuerholz hard work

Bobby Cox hired John Schuerholz

Chip R
08-02-2010, 02:15 AM
I'm glad to see the opposition giving the Reds credit rather than complaining about the umpires or the balls or their own team didn't play that well.

RBA
08-02-2010, 02:28 AM
Then again, if I had to choose between my wife punching me in the face and getting arrested or my wife having sex with a porn star and 18 other guys, I'd choose the former.




:confused: I don't know where you pulled that from. Too much information I guess.

cincinnati chili
08-02-2010, 02:36 AM
:confused: I don't know where you pulled that from. Too much information I guess.

Comparison was raised above between Tiger Woods' transgressions and Bobby Cox's transgressions.

Tiger Woods slept with 18 women including a porn star unbeknownst to his wife.

Bobby Cox allegedly struck his wife.

My point being, while the latter is illegal and the former is legal, I would much rather that my wife punch me in the face once than sleep with a bunch of dudes behind my back numerous times.

RichRed
08-02-2010, 12:19 PM
Yes, he was involved in a domestic dispute where he reportedly hit his wife. I lived in Atlanta from 1993-2003 though and it was by all accounts a one time incident. Still inexcusable but I don't believe he was/is a serial abuser.


From the aforementioned SI article:


"I asked Pamela Cox if this kind of incident had ever occurred before," officer Sonya Lee wrote. "Pamela Cox told me that this was the first time police had been called but that there had been 5--6 previous incidents involving physical abuse in their 18-year marriage. When asked, Pamela Cox stated that she has sustained blackened eyes and a broken hand, injuries inflicted by her husband."

There was a media firestorm when the news broke, but Cox and the Braves quickly contained it. He held a press conference the next day to deny hitting his wife. The battery charge disappeared when he agreed to take anger-management counseling.

Loyalty is a powerful thing. Pam Cox stood by her husband at the press conference, and she saved him. "He didn't hit me," she said.

You were wrong if you thought Bobby Cox would stay home with his wife that night. The Phillies were in town, and he was needed in the dugout.

pedro
08-02-2010, 12:57 PM
From the aforementioned SI article:

I'm sorry to hear that.

cincrazy
08-02-2010, 01:20 PM
Cox is a good manager but he had alot of help threw the years to become a good manager.The Alanta Braves for years bought players(like yankees)spent money like it grew on trees.He always had one of the top best teams every year b/c of the braves buying players and trying to buy a title.I think when people look back at the Braves during the time he managed that people will say that the braves was a huge dissapointment.

I would have loved to have seen Cox manage a average MLB team then we would see just how good he really is.JMO

There isn't a good manager alive who didn't have good players.

RBA
08-02-2010, 01:40 PM
There isn't a good manager alive who didn't have good players.

Exactly. IMO, if you have teams that are good enough to make it to the playoffs, the real deal is getting the team over the hump to win the World Series. Given that the Braves only have 1 world series championship while having all that richness of talent for over a decade doesn't equal an outstanding manager to me.

Cedric
08-02-2010, 02:01 PM
It's all semantics, IMO. Managers are just not that important in my opinion. Though I do think Cox gets credit for winning in the NL.

I've watched plenty of Dodgers games this year and Joe Torre is the worst manager I have seen. He honestly would get roasted in this town with the idiotic way he manages the bullpen and his lineups.

Guys like Torre, Girardi, and Francona don't deserve any credit winning in that league. I have much more respect for guys that have won over here for long periods of time.

RED VAN HOT
08-02-2010, 03:40 PM
His praise of Rolen is well placed. Has Rolen ever been seen without his game face?

_Sir_Charles_
08-02-2010, 06:00 PM
This probably isn't worthy of a thread on it's own, but Jaime Ramsey's got some really nice pics up from the Atlanta series. Funny, funny captions too. Great stuff.

http://ramsey.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/07/pregame-photos-1.html

traderumor
08-03-2010, 11:00 AM
This probably isn't worthy of a thread on it's own, but Jaime Ramsey's got some really nice pics up from the Atlanta series. Funny, funny captions too. Great stuff.

http://ramsey.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/07/pregame-photos-1.htmlOn Bryan Price pic--Phil Mickleson?