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View Full Version : Votto is injured - tweaked wrist



fearofpopvol1
08-02-2010, 03:48 PM
Out of the lineup tonight and I asked C. Trent and he said he wasn't sure.

Let's hope it's just a day off.

EDIT: Fay claims tweaked wrist...hopefully it's nothing serious.

reds44
08-02-2010, 03:49 PM
Oh no. Not this again.

Players get off days.

fearofpopvol1
08-02-2010, 03:53 PM
That's how I feel too, but C. Trent said he wasn't sure, which was a cause for concern in my opinion.

Cedric
08-02-2010, 03:54 PM
Like it or not it's a reasonable question. I'm hoping for a quick answer here.

OnBaseMachine
08-02-2010, 03:55 PM
I would have to guess he's a little banged up or something. He just had a day off on July 22, and then the Reds were off last Thursday and are off again this Thursday. Considering how hot he's been lately, there's no way Dusty is just resting him. JMO.

Homer Bailey
08-02-2010, 03:55 PM
Just please no speculation this time. Just facts. Is that too much to ask for?

reds44
08-02-2010, 03:57 PM
I would have to guess he's a little banged up or something. He just had a day off on July 22, and then the Reds were off last Thursday and are off again this Thursday. Considering how hot he's been lately, there's no way Dusty is just resting him. JMO.
1 for his last 9 with 5 Ks.

OnBaseMachine
08-02-2010, 03:59 PM
1 for his last 9 with 5 Ks.

18 for his last 39 with two doubles and four homers.

traderumor
08-02-2010, 03:59 PM
chigger bite

medford
08-02-2010, 04:01 PM
maybe he cleared super secret waivers and is about to be traded for a bucket of balls. :D

reds44
08-02-2010, 04:01 PM
18 for his last 39 with two doubles and four homers.
Yeah. He has good numbers against Olendorf too.

Dude's really good. You're gonna have a hard time finding negative stats for him.

flyer85
08-02-2010, 04:03 PM
maybe he cleared super secret waivers and is about to be traded for a bucket of balls. :DI thought it was double secret waivers?:eek:

medford
08-02-2010, 04:04 PM
I thought it was double secret waivers?:eek:

Double secret probration, super secret waivers. Get 'em straight and you'll learn quickly the intent behind Germany's bombing of Pearl Habor.

flyer85
08-02-2010, 04:06 PM
Double secret probration, super secret waivers. Get 'em straight and you'll learn quickly the intent behind Germany's bombing of Pearl Habor.I never liked that Mussolini guy.

Ron Madden
08-02-2010, 04:09 PM
I understand the fact that you have to give players a day off now and then
but we are in the stretch run for the playoffs and have an off day Thursday.

bucksfan2
08-02-2010, 04:13 PM
I understand the fact that you have to give players a day off now and then
but we are in the stretch run for the playoffs and have an off day Thursday.

Its kind of like the time outs in college basketball. Most coaches like to get their best players on the bench 20 to 30 seconds before the under 16,12,8,4 minute time outs. It allows a player to get more rest. This probably will be Votto's last off day. I would rather it come against the Pirates than the Cards, but thats just me.

RedLegSuperStar
08-02-2010, 04:15 PM
We are playing Pittsburg.. My guess is he is a little banged up and will be back in tomorrow.

RichRed
08-02-2010, 04:18 PM
Maybe he's just celebrating August Long Weekend in Canada?

http://gocanada.about.com/od/canadatravelplanner/a/august_civic.htm

Mario-Rijo
08-02-2010, 04:21 PM
I was wondering the same thing about Heisey he was abruptly ripped from the lineup yesterday.

edabbs44
08-02-2010, 04:21 PM
We are playing Pittsburg.. My guess is he is a little banged up and will be back in tomorrow.

Exactly. Would rather see him get a day off tonight if he is banged up than head into next week really hurt.

RedLegSuperStar
08-02-2010, 04:24 PM
Exactly. Would rather see him get a day off tonight if he is banged up than head into next week really hurt.

I'd rather him be 100% for St. Louis/West Coast series'. Heck; if I were Dusty I might think about resting several starters this series as long as you are confident you are going to net a victory.

OesterPoster
08-02-2010, 04:24 PM
Gotta think it's just a day off. A few of his ABs on Saturday and Sunday weren't as sharp as we're used to seeing from him.

Now, if today's date was August 8th and the anniversary of his father's passing...then I might be a bit more alarmed.

OnBaseMachine
08-02-2010, 04:24 PM
I'd rather him be 100% for St. Louis/West Coast series'. Heck; if I were Dusty I might think about resting several starters this series as long as you are confident you are going to net a victory.

Let's keep in mind that the Pirates have won 4 of 10 against the Reds this season. The Reds can't afford to take the Pirates lightly in this series.

Homer Bailey
08-02-2010, 04:26 PM
Let's keep in mind that the Pirates have won 4 of 10 against the Reds this season. The Reds can't afford to take the Pirates lightly in this series.

3 of those were the sweep back in April. Reds have won 6 of the last 7 vs. Pitt, all since the lineup change that sparked the offense.

RedLegSuperStar
08-02-2010, 04:27 PM
http://twitter.com/injuryreports


MLB Cincinnati Reds - Joey Votto, Rest, Doubtful - is not expected to be in the starting lineup Monday (8/2) at Pittsburgh

For what it's worth.. Cairo is batting 3rd. Wow

37red
08-02-2010, 04:32 PM
I've been scanning the web and can't find any reference of him being injured. The Reds are going to be playing a losing team, being the most dangerous types of course. But as pointed out "just the facts mam, just the facts".

Degenerate39
08-02-2010, 04:36 PM
He was surfing the net for designer clothes when he accidently knocked over his fancy coffee going all over his legs. He is dealing with severe burns and sissyitis

BoydsOfSummer
08-02-2010, 04:36 PM
http://twitter.com/injuryreports (http://twitter.com/injuryreports)



For what it's worth.. Cairo is batting 3rd. Wow


Good grief. Atta boy Dusty, you boob.

reds44
08-02-2010, 04:38 PM
He was surfing the net for designer clothes when he accidently knocked over his fancy coffee going all over his legs. He is dealing with severe burns and sissyitis
He also has a horrible case of being Canadian. A dose of maple syrup and he should be better by tomorrow.

jojo
08-02-2010, 04:41 PM
18 for his last 39 with two doubles and four homers.

Sounds to me like he's exhausted from running the bases.

bucksfan2
08-02-2010, 04:43 PM
http://twitter.com/injuryreports



For what it's worth.. Cairo is batting 3rd. Wow

In limited time Cairo has put up this line .299/.370/.423. In all honesty I am more worried about the 5, 6, and 7 holes than I am about Cairo batting 3rd.

reds44
08-02-2010, 05:11 PM
And of all a sudden, it's no longer funny.


johnfayman Votto "tweaked" his wrist yesterday on a swing. "I don't think it's serious. Hopefully, I'll be back in soon." #reds

Cedric
08-02-2010, 05:13 PM
Holy crud.

That just ruined my day.

TRF
08-02-2010, 05:24 PM
Here is what Dusty should do.

Bat Votto 3rd today. have him rest his bat on his shoulder in his 1st AB, do everything he can to strikeout. Then, get himself ejected. Replace him with Janish in the three hole.

winner as Janish goes 4-4 after being inserted with 2 minutes notice.

OesterPoster
08-02-2010, 05:27 PM
Ugh. His last AB yesterday against the lefty was ugly. He had a couple really weak swings.

fearofpopvol1
08-02-2010, 05:33 PM
That's probably a solid 10 days out of the lineup...maybe more. The Reds have no chance at going to the playoffs if Votto is out for an extended period of time.

HokieRed
08-02-2010, 05:35 PM
That's probably a solid 10 days out of the lineup...maybe more. The Reds have no chance at going to the playoffs if Votto is out for an extended period of time.


If it's going to be 10 days, it should be Alonso time.

Tommyjohn25
08-02-2010, 05:35 PM
Hopefully it's not the dreaded hammate bone.

fearofpopvol1
08-02-2010, 05:37 PM
If it's going to be 10 days, it should be Alonso time.

The Reds will likely say he is day-to-day for 10 days and won't put him on the DL. That's how they roll. See: Scott Rolen

reds44
08-02-2010, 05:38 PM
The Reds will likely say he is day-to-day for 10 days and won't put him on the DL. That's how they roll. See: Scott Rolen
The classic case of day to day to day to day to day to day to day to day to day to day to day.

I certainly hope we don't play that game again.

klw
08-02-2010, 05:45 PM
Its probably Dengue fever. He has spread it to the rest of the team. Put them all on the 60 day DL and call up the Dayton roster! Cancel the season now! Hopefully in 3 to 4 years the Reds will be able to approach a season where they have fewer than 110 losses. Quarantine the team in Pittsburgh to protect the other citizens of Cincinnati.

HeatherC1212
08-02-2010, 05:46 PM
Geesh, overreact much? At least wait until you have more information about things before you go into panic mode. :rolleyes:

Hopefully Joey is all right and ready to get back on the field soon.

Tom Servo
08-02-2010, 05:48 PM
This is why I'm in favor of adding a guy like Mike Lowell.

Kc61
08-02-2010, 05:50 PM
I would send an outfielder to AAA - maybe Stubbs, maybe Nix, for 10 days. I would fill the spot on the Reds with first baseman Yonder Alonso who has been hot at AAA.

I would not DL Votto unless necessary. If he comes back sooner than expected Alonso can always be returned to AAA with somebody else replacing him.

The Reds outfield is not hitting and oddly nobody out there plays first base. I would get Alonso in to back up Votto - now.

traderumor
08-02-2010, 05:50 PM
I guess chigger bite was just a rumor. C'mon Joey, duct tape (red to match the uni) it and get out there. We're in a pennant race for goodness sake ;)

_Sir_Charles_
08-02-2010, 05:52 PM
For what it's worth.. Cairo is batting 3rd. Wow


Good grief. Atta boy Dusty, you boob.

I understand people's frustration with this, but you could look at it from the other side. Leaving Cairo in there at third allows everyone else to hit in their comfortable position in the lineup. It's a change of one player, why throw everyone else out of whack too? I don't agree with it...just saying that's likely the reason for it.

LincolnparkRed
08-02-2010, 05:54 PM
The Reds will likely say he is day-to-day for 10 days and won't put him on the DL. That's how they roll. See: Scott Rolen

Can Sutton play 1st? He has been up before, than again it is August and Alonso was a college aged number 1 pick who seems to be finding his stroke. Wrist injuries are never good, remember how Dickerson's was just tweaked at first as well.

OnBaseMachine
08-02-2010, 05:56 PM
Yonder Alonso's last 200 PAs: .326/.377/.527 - .904 OPS. If Votto is going to miss more than three games or four games, I would send someone down and bring up Alonso to fill in at 1B.

_Sir_Charles_
08-02-2010, 05:56 PM
Of all the guys down in Louisville who are smacking the cover off the ball, the one I DON'T want up here is freaking Drew Sutton (who by the way is NOT smacking the cover off the ball). *shudder*

Ghosts of 1990
08-02-2010, 05:57 PM
Was hoping Joey would make up some RBI ground on Ryan Howard (who just sprained his ankle). Hope Joey is back on the mend soon.

Kc61
08-02-2010, 05:59 PM
Yonder Alonso's last 200 PAs: .326/.377/.527 - .904 OPS. If Votto is going to miss more than three games or four games, I would send someone down and bring up Alonso to fill in at 1B.


Problem is it's probably unclear how much time JV will miss.

As said in my earlier post, I'd get Alonso up immediately.

Thing is, the outfield is doing so poorly offensively there is little downside to sending one outfielder down for the minimum minor league stretch. Stubbs can use the reps against AAA pitching. Nix. IMO even Heisey.

Right now, having Alonso - a needed lefty bat and first baseman - is more important than having five outfielders, none of whom is hitting much. Get him to the show.

reds44
08-02-2010, 06:13 PM
If you're sending somebody down to bring up Alonso, IMO there's no doubt it's Janish. It just makes the most sense. If OC gets hurt during a game, Cairo can finish out the game and you can call Janish back up.

Stubbs is probably going to go down when Dickerson is recalled.

Redsfan320
08-02-2010, 06:22 PM
BTW, to whomever asked, Sutton has played 19 games at 1st in Louisville this year.

320

fearofpopvol1
08-02-2010, 06:23 PM
If you're sending somebody down to bring up Alonso, IMO there's no doubt it's Janish. It just makes the most sense. If OC gets hurt during a game, Cairo can finish out the game and you can call Janish back up.

Stubbs is probably going to go down when Dickerson is recalled.

Who's going to play SS if OCab goes down or hurts himself in the middle of the game? Or needs a day off?

reds44
08-02-2010, 06:26 PM
Who's going to play SS if OCab goes down or hurts himself in the middle of the game? Or needs a day off?
Cairo could do it for a few innings, and if OC is really hurt then Janish just comes back up.

We're talking about a few days here until Votto gets healthy or goes on the DL. We're 106 games into the season and Janish has started 8 times at SS. The Reds can deal without a backup SS for a week.

And Drew Sutton is probably next in line to get DFA'd to make room on the 40 man, he's not coming up.

Blitz Dorsey
08-02-2010, 06:27 PM
Crap. This is the one thing we cannot afford. He is the NL MVP no questions asked and this team will not survive without him.

fearofpopvol1
08-02-2010, 06:28 PM
Cairo could do it for a few innings, and if OC is really hurt then Janish just comes back up.

We're talking about a few days here until Votto gets healthy or goes on the DL. We're 106 games into the season and Janish has started 8 times at SS. The Reds can deal without a backup SS for a week.

Once you send Janish down, you can't recall him for 7 days. Cairo playing SS would be bad. Cairo has played in 56 games at SS since 1996.

Sending down Janish is risky and I doubt it's a risk the Reds take.

camisadelgolf
08-02-2010, 06:29 PM
If Votto were to go on the DL for this (and he won't--not within the next couple days, at least), I would love to see Yonder Alonso get a call-up and show us why it's so important draft best player available instead of drafting for need.

reds44
08-02-2010, 06:29 PM
Once you send Janish down, you can't recall him for 7 days. Cairo playing SS would be bad. Cairo has played in 56 games at SS since 1996.

Sending down Janish is risky and I doubt it's a risk the Reds take.
It's 10 days, unless somebody gets hurt. If OC gets hurt, then you recall Janish. It's really not risky at all.

All of this is moot (mute?) though. I bet Dusty would rather be playing Cairo at 1B than Alonso. Lets hope Votto is back tomorrow or Wed.

Blitz Dorsey
08-02-2010, 06:30 PM
If Votto were to go on the DL for this (and he won't--not within the next couple days, at least), I would love to see Yonder Alonso get a call-up and show us why it's so important draft best player available instead of drafting for need.

But that's assuming he was the best player available, which IMO he was not (unless you think he's better than Beckham, Smoak, Ike Davis, etc).

I do agree with you though that if Votto has to miss some time I'd like to see Yonder get called-up so we can see what he can do.

reds44
08-02-2010, 06:31 PM
But that's assuming he was the best player available, which he was not (unless you think he's better than Beckham, Smoak, Ike Davis, etc).

I do agree with you though that if Votto has to miss some time I'd like to see Yonder get called-up so we can see what he can do.
Now's really not the time to be seeing what people can do. If Alonso is a better option than Cairo, then you call him up. If he's not, you don't.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2010, 06:39 PM
LOL. Deadline deals? Who needs those with all this depth? Seriously, this FO was kind of asking for this.

Chip R
08-02-2010, 06:42 PM
LOL. Deadline deals? Who needs those with all this depth? Seriously, this FO was kind of asking for this.

Yes, because the Reds really needed a backup 1st baseman.

37red
08-02-2010, 06:43 PM
Problem is it's probably unclear how much time JV will miss.

As said in my earlier post, I'd get Alonso up immediately.

Thing is, the outfield is doing so poorly offensively there is little downside to sending one outfielder down for the minimum minor league stretch. Stubbs can use the reps against AAA pitching. Nix. IMO even Heisey.

Right now, having Alonso - a needed lefty bat and first baseman - is more important than having five outfielders, none of whom is hitting much. Get him to the show.

I think this is a good point. Stubbs needs to take a ride to Louisville and work on a swing, any swing other than what he's doing now. The pressure is on and just focusing on getting your eye back on the ball will help a lot.

edabbs44
08-02-2010, 06:44 PM
LOL. Deadline deals? Who needs those with all this depth? Seriously, this FO was kind of asking for this.

Were you saying the same thing when Pujols was gimping around the field the other day?

Captain Hook
08-02-2010, 06:45 PM
But that's assuming he was the best player available, which IMO he was not (unless you think he's better than Beckham, Smoak, Ike Davis, etc).

I do agree with you though that if Votto has to miss some time I'd like to see Yonder get called-up so we can see what he can do.

I don't think it's safe to say that those three are better then Yonder considering that in the bigs only Davis has an OPS over .700 this year.But yeah, lets see Yonder if Votto is going to miss much time.

I do think it's overreacting a bit at this point but is still worth mentioning that I'd like to see our #1 draft pick from a few years ago if there's an injury that going to force Votto out for sometime.

If they're sure it's not bad then Cairo for a few games against the Pirates isn't going to hurt the season one bit.Wasn't it the Buco's that Cairo went nuts against earlier in the year when Votto missed time?

Falls City Beer
08-02-2010, 06:45 PM
Yes, because the Reds really needed a backup 1st baseman.

They needed talent. Whether it was on the run prevention side or the run scoring. Considering they are thinnest in both offense and starting pitching, it wouldn't have been out of the realm of possibility to grab a bat at the deadline.

Only an idiot wouldn't realize that, even at full strength, this team is barely strong enough to hang in the race much less strong enough win it. Without Votto (and he may be back in a few days, we know nothing at this point)--but if he misses any time at all, the season is in the books.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2010, 06:51 PM
Were you saying the same thing when Pujols was gimping around the field the other day?

It hasn't kept him from mashing homers, fwiw.

Chip R
08-02-2010, 06:55 PM
Only an idiot wouldn't realize that, even at full strength, this team is barely strong enough to hang in the race much less strong enough win it.

You said it. I didn't.

PuffyPig
08-02-2010, 06:55 PM
They needed talent. Whether it was on the run prevention side or the run scoring. Considering they are thinnest in both offense and starting pitching, it wouldn't have been out of the realm of possibility to grab a bat at the deadline.

Only an idiot wouldn't realize that, even at full strength, this team is barely strong enough to hang in the race much less strong enough win it. Without Votto (and he may be back in a few days, we know nothing at this point)--but if he misses any time at all, the season is in the books.

You've said this season was in the books more often than I care to remember.

Yet here we are, in August, and we are still in it.

You know, you may just be wrong, as you have been a hundred other times this year.

We currrently lead the NL in runs scored. Surely there are other teams, even the impossible to beat Cards, who may just be thinner on offense, especially since they traded their theirs best offensive player to cover a serious lack of depth in the rotation.

edabbs44
08-02-2010, 07:10 PM
It hasn't kept him from mashing homers, fwiw.

Resting a banged up franchise player vs the Pirates reeks of confidence. Making him play reeks of desperation.

MikeS21
08-02-2010, 07:12 PM
I think this is a good point. Stubbs needs to take a ride to Louisville and work on a swing, any swing other than what he's doing now. The pressure is on and just focusing on getting your eye back on the ball will help a lot.
Of course, it might be well to remember that Stubbs, despite his 1-30 stretch, had an OPS that was .150 higher than Jay Bruce in the month of July.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2010, 07:13 PM
Resting a banged up franchise player vs the Pirates reeks of confidence. Making him play reeks of desperation.

Believe me, I'm not saying they should make Votto play with a hurt wrist. I'm just saying that Pujols' injury is clearly not as damaging as Votto's.

RedLegSuperStar
08-02-2010, 07:15 PM
This was the time to capitalize on Howard being out.. Votto could gain some RBI ground.. guess will have to wait.

PuffyPig
08-02-2010, 07:19 PM
Believe me, I'm not saying they should make Votto play with a hurt wrist. I'm just saying that Pujols' injury is clearly not as damaging as Votto's.

There is nothing clear about that to me.

Pujols's OPS resting about 100 points below his career average suggests that he banged up more than they are admiting. Or age is catching up to him.

Strikes Out Looking
08-02-2010, 07:19 PM
Believe me, I'm not saying they should make Votto play with a hurt wrist. I'm just saying that Pujols' injury is clearly not as damaging as Votto's.

Better living through science?

puca
08-02-2010, 07:20 PM
I would send down Stubbs and bring up Yonder unless I was pretty sure Joey would be able to play tomorrow. As others have said, Stubbs could use the reps in a low-pressure situation to find some semblance of a swing again. Nix and Heisey and eventually Dickerson can cover CF. Of course someone has to go from the 40 man in order to activate Dickerson. That might be a tough decision itself.

I don't think it will be Nix. I know it won't be Cairo. Maybe Sutton. Maybe a pitcher (Owings/DRH/LeCure/Valliquette). It's entirely possible that the Reds DFA Dickerson instead.

Also keep in mind that the Reds only have 2 catchers on the 40-man right now, so if one of them gets banged up they will need to make room for Corky again. They also might need to make room for Isringhausen if he pitches well. It will be an interesting month or so.

edabbs44
08-02-2010, 07:23 PM
Believe me, I'm not saying they should make Votto play with a hurt wrist. I'm just saying that Pujols' injury is clearly not as damaging as Votto's.

Pretty sure that this is not known to be true by anyone in the world.

membengal
08-02-2010, 07:25 PM
Yes, because the Reds really needed a backup 1st baseman.

I know I wasn't the only one wishing for Luke Scott. He would have helped in a situation like this...

kbrake
08-02-2010, 07:29 PM
I can't believe people still think Walt sat with his thumbs up his butt for the past 2 weeks. Of course we would have all loved to add some pieces to this team but apparently the deals were not there. I'm not saying we should all put our heads in the sand because Walt is Walt, I'm just saying with what he has done so far I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully Votto is back soon.

OnBaseMachine
08-02-2010, 07:30 PM
Update from John Fay:


Joey Votto said he tweaked his right wrist. Reds manager Dusty Baker said Votto sprained it.

While Bakers version sounds more serious both he and Votto were hopeful that Votto would be back in the lineup in a day or two.

We hope so, Dusty Baker said. Its been bothering him for three days. If you dont take care of it, it can only get worse, especially every time you check swing. Its a sprain. Right now, were on a day-to-day.



Votto was checked by Dr. Tim Kremchek Sunday. X-rays were negative.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/02/more-on-votto/

reds44
08-02-2010, 07:31 PM
I'm I the only one getting the vibe from all these quotes that it's going to be more than day to day? Everything is "for now" or "we'll see." To me, it sounds like they're more hopeful that it's day to day than it actually is.

membengal
08-02-2010, 07:35 PM
Reds44, I have tired of trying to guess along with these injuries. Frankly, I would be cool with them giving him the week off and getting him as close to 100% as possible for next Monday against St. Louis if there is any question about this lingering.

Try and take 4 of 6 from the Pirates and Cubs without him. I think they can.

reds44
08-02-2010, 07:36 PM
Reds44, I have tired of trying to guess along with these injuries. Frankly, I would be cool with them giving him the week off and getting him as close to 100% as possible for next Monday against St. Louis if there is any question about this lingering.

Try and take 4 of 6 from the Pirates and Cubs without him. I think they can.
I think that's probably what ends up happening. At the earliest, we'll see him at Wrigley.

Scrap Irony
08-02-2010, 07:37 PM
I'd love for Red brass to say Votto's out for six games and will be back Friday.

But the human body doesn't work that way.

RedLegSuperStar
08-02-2010, 07:40 PM
Update from John Fay:





http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/02/more-on-votto/

Have the series off.. they won't bring anyone up. Similar to Votto's previous neck sprain and Rolen's hammy.

On a side note..I got to believe they are taking notice of what Dickerson is doing down there. Dustys comments that theres he's not sure their is room for him up here. Granted Heisey is backing up all the OFers at the moment. I'd rather have a speedy Stubbs who can go down to Louisville and work on his swing every night versus riding the pine at the big league level. Sometimes you need to capitalize on things and make the moves that make the most sense.

Redsfan320
08-02-2010, 08:26 PM
I can do PBP starting in the 4th for a while. The thing is, if I want to watch on TV, I need the laptop. However, if I listen on radio, I can do it in my room where I have a computer. Yeah.

320

bucksfan2
08-02-2010, 10:39 PM
Holy overreaction batman. Votto tweaks his wrist and he has a broken hammate bone according to some. According to others the season is over. Fact of the matter is baseball players all the time suffer through nagging injuries. Its just the reality of a 162 game season.

fearofpopvol1
08-03-2010, 12:58 AM
I'd love for Red brass to say Votto's out for six games and will be back Friday.

But the human body doesn't work that way.

Problem is...the Reds brass pretty much ALWAYS underestimates...they give rosier predictions, frustrating and annoying fans. I think most would rather they overestimate and then bring the player back early if they are ready on the earlier side of things.

TheNext44
08-03-2010, 03:47 AM
He probably just strained his wrist trying to attach his Gucci cufflinks to one of his fancy Armani shirts. :cool:

Ron Madden
08-03-2010, 05:24 AM
Holy overreaction batman. Votto tweaks his wrist and he has a broken hammate bone according to some. According to others the season is over. Fact of the matter is baseball players all the time suffer through nagging injuries. Its just the reality of a 162 game season.

Speaking of overreaction.

GAC
08-03-2010, 05:44 AM
Believe me, I'm not saying they should make Votto play with a hurt wrist. I'm just saying that Pujols' injury is clearly not as damaging as Votto's.

How do you know the extent Doc? According to the Red's training staff his wrist doesn't appear to be that serious, and they were probably wise to give him a day off.

And it wouldn't surprise, nor bother me, if if he took the entire Pirates series off.

Meanwhile, while everyone is lamenting Cairo playing 1B, the guy did an admirable job last night and drove in 2 of the 4 runs. ARRRGGGH!

Also, the Cards bullpen suffered a really nice meltdown vs the Stohs last night and end up losing 9-4. Yet our pitching staff is the one that is really shaky and has problems? Check the pitching stats for the month of July in the NL. They will surprise you.

I never in my life seen so much over reaction and speculation from a forum because a guy is sat. Geez!

RFS62
08-03-2010, 08:46 AM
He probably just strained his wrist trying to attach his Gucci cufflinks to one of his fancy Armani shirts. :cool:



Good one.

:laugh:


If you've ever had a sprained wrist, you know that it takes time to heal. If you come back too soon, you'll just prolong the pain and recovery. It's very frustrating to have to sit out with nothing more than a wrist injury, but it's impossible to hit without healthy hands and wrists.

This isn't football, where they can tape you up and send you back out there.

Falls City Beer
08-03-2010, 09:25 AM
How do you know the extent Doc?


You can't swing a bat with a hurt wrist, but you can still play first and swing a bat with a bad leg. As far as injuries are concerned that's all you need to know from a baseball standpoint.

Who knows, Albert's injury may hurt him ten times more than Joey's hurts him, but it doesn't matter if Albert's in the lineup and producing and Joey's not on the lineup card.

traderumor
08-03-2010, 10:52 AM
Problem is...the Reds brass pretty much ALWAYS underestimates...they give rosier predictions, frustrating and annoying fans. I think most would rather they overestimate and then bring the player back early if they are ready on the earlier side of things.Maybe the rosy predictions aren't for the fans, but to not let an opponent know that you're playing short a man. If the guy is announced as "day to day," they at least have to entertain the possibility that the dinged up player could pinch hit and could affect their decisions on bullpen use. I know its all about the fans, but really its not ;)

Hoosier Red
08-03-2010, 11:00 AM
Only an idiot wouldn't realize that, even at full strength, this team is barely strong enough to hang in the race much less strong enough win it. Without Votto (and he may be back in a few days, we know nothing at this point)--but if he misses any time at all, the season is in the books.

Than I sir am that idiot.

This team has plenty of depth and showed it last night. Gomes, Stubbs, and Bruce have all cooled down to the point where no one is really playing over their heads and the Reds are in 1st place on August 3rd. Tell me how they're going to fall out exactly? If Joey's on the DL for a month than maybe. But that's not the situation we're talking about.

Falls City Beer
08-03-2010, 11:06 AM
Than I sir am that idiot.

This team has plenty of depth and showed it last night. Gomes, Stubbs, and Bruce have all cooled down to the point where no one is really playing over their heads and the Reds are in 1st place on August 3rd. Tell me how they're going to fall out exactly? If Joey's on the DL for a month than maybe. But that's not the situation we're talking about.

I'll say it again: 19 games against the NL West remain, 16 of them are out there. Cardinals have no remaining road games against the West.

And don't forget that a much better team in the 99 team choked a postseason berth away against some less than stellar talent. A much thinner team in this year's team is facing a much, much tougher schedule between now and October. This is by far the toughest part of their season schedule.

_Sir_Charles_
08-03-2010, 11:46 AM
I'll say it again: 19 games against the NL West remain, 16 of them are out there. Cardinals have no remaining road games against the West.

And don't forget that a much better team in the 99 team choked a postseason berth away against some less than stellar talent. A much thinner team in this year's team is facing a much, much tougher schedule between now and October. This is by far the toughest part of their season schedule.

Just out of curiosity, are the Cards known for having notoriously bad west coast trips? I sure don't recall that.

That being said, the 2010 edition of the Reds are NOT the team from the past decade. We're 8-8 against west coast teams this season thus far (including Colorado). We've got the pitching to match up with those west coast teams and we've also got the hitting. Is it possible that we could struggle out there? Sure. But it's just as likely that we'll do well. The "history" of this team doesn't really have much at all to do with this current club IMO.

Chip R
08-03-2010, 11:50 AM
I'm just wondering how Dusty's going to play Cairo at both shortstop and 1st base. ;)

nate
08-03-2010, 12:01 PM
Just out of curiosity, are the Cards known for having notoriously bad west coast trips? I sure don't recall that.

That being said, the 2010 edition of the Reds are NOT the team from the past decade. We're 8-8 against west coast teams this season thus far (including Colorado). We've got the pitching to match up with those west coast teams and we've also got the hitting.

Maybe the hitting but the Reds pitching doesn't match up very favorably with the any of the West Coast teams.


Is it possible that we could struggle out there? Sure. But it's just as likely that we'll do well. The "history" of this team doesn't really have much at all to do with this current club IMO.

I agree with that. Saying the "West Coast trip is the Reds' death knell" is the sort of thing that's historic rather than predictive.

redsmetz
08-03-2010, 12:09 PM
I'll say it again: 19 games against the NL West remain, 16 of them are out there. Cardinals have no remaining road games against the West.

And don't forget that a much better team in the 99 team choked a postseason berth away against some less than stellar talent. A much thinner team in this year's team is facing a much, much tougher schedule between now and October. This is by far the toughest part of their season schedule.

I know folks like to rag on FCB for "doom and gloom," but I agree with what he is trying to get across (I think) - that this club has its work cut out for it. I'm always hesitant to assume that any club will be a cakewalk. Winning any game is not a given, no matter how poor that club may be. It's partly why the Pirates are giving me the heebie-jeebies right now. They've lost six in a row and I'm hoping we leave town with that number being eight, but I know their karma is bound to change and I'm just hoping it's after we head to Chicago.

This club has some weaknesses. It's not a perfect club although I'm enjoying how they're producing and coming through, but we know the lesson of 1999. Yes, each game is just one game, but each loss is one more loss in that column. All the '99 club needed was just one stinking victory in that season which would have made the cold, awful final weekend in Milwaukee not so important.

But there will be no cakewalks that can be expected and we'll need to repeat our last West Coast trip, something that is never easy.

And I'm saying that as one of the Pollyanna crowd around here.

Cedric
08-03-2010, 12:15 PM
I know folks like to rag on FCB for "doom and gloom," but I agree with what he is trying to get across (I think) - that this club has its work cut out for it. I'm always hesitant to assume that any club will be a cakewalk. Winning any game is not a given, no matter how poor that club may be. It's partly why the Pirates are giving me the heebie-jeebies right now. They've lost six in a row and I'm hoping we leave town with that number being eight, but I know their karma is bound to change and I'm just hoping it's after we head to Chicago.

This club has some weaknesses. It's not a perfect club although I'm enjoying how they're producing and coming through, but we know the lesson of 1999. Yes, each game is just one game, but each loss is one more loss in that column. All the '99 club needed was just one stinking victory in that season which would have made the cold, awful final weekend in Milwaukee not so important.

But there will be no cakewalks that can be expected and we'll need to repeat our last West Coast trip, something that is never easy.

And I'm saying that as one of the Pollyanna crowd around here.

The west coast trip will be hard.. But the Pirates?

Mccovey, Clemente, and Pops in their primes couldn't help the Pirates with their staff.

_Sir_Charles_
08-03-2010, 12:32 PM
Maybe the hitting but the Reds pitching doesn't match up very favorably with the any of the West Coast teams.

Agree to disagree. Arroyo, Wood, Cueto & Leake are all throwing just about as good as any 4 starters in a rotation in the majors right now. And the bullpen has been flat out SOLID in the second half. I just don't see how we DON'T matchup well with any rotation right now.


I agree with that. Saying the "West Coast trip is the Reds' death knell" is the sort of thing that's historic rather than predictive.

As long as the players don't take it to heart, I'm not that concerned with the dreaded west coast trip. Different club, different mindset.

reds1869
08-03-2010, 12:45 PM
If Votto misses substantial time the club likely will fall out of the race. But if we are legitimately talking a few days against the Buccos I don't see what all the fuss is about. Seems to me that--as so often happens--both sides of the debate are going overboard.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-03-2010, 12:51 PM
All the '99 club needed was just one stinking victory in that season which would have made the cold, awful final weekend in Milwaukee not so important.

But there will be no cakewalks that can be expected and we'll need to repeat our last West Coast trip, something that is never easy.

And I'm saying that as one of the Pollyanna crowd around here.

Good post.

I was just looking at the schedule and, like '99, the Reds finish this season with 3 against Milwaukee.

This time at home.

Far East
08-03-2010, 01:01 PM
I'm just wondering how Dusty's going to play Cairo at both shortstop and 1st base. ;)
Cairo at short and Hernandez at first.

Can Cairo actually play SS? Is Dusty actually considering that?

nate
08-03-2010, 01:09 PM
Agree to disagree. Arroyo, Wood, Cueto & Leake are all throwing just about as good as any 4 starters in a rotation in the majors right now.

This isn't true, even when measured with ERA.

Even so, it's not an indication that it will continue.


And the bullpen has been flat out SOLID in the second half.

The "second half" has lasted all of two weeks. That shiny ERA number in that time period is a mirage when you look at the peripheral stats which are maybe slightly improved at best. In other words, it's the same bullpen that wasn't _that_ bad at the start of the season but not as good as the last two week's worth of ERA would indicate.

That doesn't mean I'm saying they're bad, but the West Coast team pitching is above average to excellent.


I just don't see how we DON'T matchup well with any rotation right now.

Because those West Coast teams have put up better numbers all season.

fearofpopvol1
08-03-2010, 01:22 PM
I'll say it again: 19 games against the NL West remain, 16 of them are out there. Cardinals have no remaining road games against the West.

And don't forget that a much better team in the 99 team choked a postseason berth away against some less than stellar talent. A much thinner team in this year's team is facing a much, much tougher schedule between now and October. This is by far the toughest part of their season schedule.

I'm less concerned this year compared to past years. The DBacks are terrible...and the Pads and Rockeis series' are split up and not at the same time as the Giants and Dodgers series. It's not all in 1 fell swoop.

redsmetz
08-03-2010, 01:30 PM
The west coast trip will be hard.. But the Pirates?

Mccovey, Clemente, and Pops in their primes couldn't help the Pirates with their staff.

Even at their worst, they'll win nearly 60 games. I'd rather they do it after we leave. Some team or another will lose to them in their march for 24 more victories. That's my only point.

Falls City Beer
08-03-2010, 01:32 PM
I agree with that. Saying the "West Coast trip is the Reds' death knell" is the sort of thing that's historic rather than predictive.

True. But throw out history then. Just consider the talent they'll be facing, and the fact that an offense built entirely on the home run is going to be playing in a handful of the biggest parks in the majors. San Diego and San Fran. are teams I'd never want to face in a 5 game set considering their top two arms. I certainly wouldn't be nearly afraid if the Reds had a long road trip that only included LA and Arizona. But the Reds will face very tough teams, in very tough venues for the offense they have.

Chip R
08-03-2010, 01:33 PM
Cairo at short and Hernandez at first.

Oh, I didn't think of that. Good point.


Can Cairo actually play SS? Is Dusty actually considering that?

I thought he played a few games at SS earlier this year but Baseball Reference is telling me no.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2010, 06:18 PM
From C. Trent:

per @johnfayman #Reds Votto available to pinch-hit tonight, play tomorrow

http://twitter.com/ctrent

Reds Fanatic
08-03-2010, 06:21 PM
Very good news on Votto if he is ready to come back by tomorrow. I thought for sure they would at least give him this series off. If Votto is that close I am really suprised they brought Francisco up rather than a SS.

kaldaniels
08-03-2010, 06:22 PM
[QUOTE=OnBaseMachine;2187755]From C. Trent:

per @johnfayman #Reds Votto available to pinch-hit tonight, play tomorrow

[url]

I thought it took a year to recover from a hamate break. Votto is awesome.

reds44
08-03-2010, 06:28 PM
From C. Trent:

per @johnfayman #Reds Votto available to pinch-hit tonight, play tomorrow

http://twitter.com/ctrent
Great to hear.

Makes the Francisco callup a little more odd, but oh well.

RichRed
08-03-2010, 06:28 PM
I thought it took a year to recover from a hamate break. Votto is awesome.

Votto keeps a spare hammate in his tuque at all times.

Jpup
08-03-2010, 06:29 PM
Very good news on Votto if he is ready to come back by tomorrow. I thought for sure they would at least give him this series off. If Votto is that close I am really suprised they brought Francisco up rather than a SS.

He could be out another week if the Reds continue their tradition. He'll be back when he gets back. I don't trust anyone to deliver accurate information regarding injuries.

Caveat Emperor
08-03-2010, 06:33 PM
From C. Trent:

per @johnfayman #Reds Votto available to pinch-hit tonight, play tomorrow

http://twitter.com/ctrent

So, I shouldn't start looking up the Cardinals magic number...?

dsmith421
08-03-2010, 06:38 PM
So, I shouldn't start looking up the Cardinals magic number...?

I thought we were already mathematically eliminated.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2010, 06:53 PM
From John Fay's blog:


The good news for the Reds: Joey Votto (right wrist( is better. He is available to pinch-hit tonight and probably will start tomorrow.

Hes a lot better, Baker said. If it was down the stretch in September, he probably would have played tonight. But with my experience with hand problems, another day will do him good. Hell play tomorrow and then be off Thursday.


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/03/update-on-cabrera-votto/

11larkin11
08-03-2010, 06:55 PM
I thought we were already mathematically eliminated.

Give Hawksworth one more start and we'll be out of reach.

nate
08-03-2010, 07:02 PM
From John Fay's blog:

The good news for the Reds: Joey Votto (right wrist( is better. He is available to pinch-hit tonight and probably will start tomorrow.

Hes a lot better, Baker said. If it was down the stretch in September, he probably would have played tonight. But with my experience with hand problems, another day will do him good. Hell play tomorrow and then be off Thursday.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/03/update-on-cabrera-votto/

Hell play tomorrow! I feel sorry for the Pirates!

:cool:

_Sir_Charles_
08-03-2010, 07:16 PM
This isn't true, even when measured with ERA.

Even so, it's not an indication that it will continue.

Wood: 0.87 whip in 7 starts...this is including his one "poor" outing against Houston (9 hits & 4 er)

Cueto: Had a 3 game stretch (June 1 to June 12) where he was channeling his inner Harang, but otherwise he's been a top notch ACE since May.

Arroyo: He'll toss in one bad game every month to skew his numbers, but 9 times out of 10 he's one of best #2 starters in the NL.

Leake: He's come back down to earth after his unreal start, but even the past 2 months that he's "struggled" he's been awfully good, just left in too long. Nearly all his games were absolute gems until his final inning of work.

I know there are quite a few rotations out there who have #1's & #2's that top ours...but there simply aren't many 1-4 that do overall IMO. The Giants are clearly the best 1-4 IMO, but other than them....


Last thing to consider....our staff is doing it in GABP.

nate
08-03-2010, 08:11 PM
Wood: 0.87 whip in 7 starts...this is including his one "poor" outing against Houston (9 hits & 4 er)

Cueto: Had a 3 game stretch (June 1 to June 12) where he was channeling his inner Harang, but otherwise he's been a top notch ACE since May.

Arroyo: He'll toss in one bad game every month to skew his numbers, but 9 times out of 10 he's one of best #2 starters in the NL.

Leake: He's come back down to earth after his unreal start, but even the past 2 months that he's "struggled" he's been awfully good, just left in too long. Nearly all his games were absolute gems until his final inning of work.

I know there are quite a few rotations out there who have #1's & #2's that top ours...but there simply aren't many 1-4 that do overall IMO. The Giants are clearly the best 1-4 IMO, but other than them....

Marlins, Cardinals, Astros (yes, really), Dodgers, Rockies, Cubs, Braves, Mets, Padres all have better starters than the Reds.


Last thing to consider....our staff is doing it in GABP.

The Rockies are _really_ doing it at Coors.

None of those guys have been amongst the four best at anything this year. Not on the season and not in any infinitesimal split. That doesn't mean I don't like them, but there's really no metric where the staff comes up as "good" in any regard.

The good thing is that they're at least averagish. The defense seems to be above average (which helps the pitching) and the offense is excellent so those things combine for wins.

nemesis
08-03-2010, 08:19 PM
Marlins, Cardinals, Astros (yes, really), Dodgers, Rockies, Cubs, Braves, Mets, Padres all have better starters than the Reds.

Where do you buy your crack? Cause that must be some good stuff.

Falls City Beer
08-03-2010, 08:20 PM
Marlins, Cardinals, Astros (yes, really), Dodgers, Rockies, Cubs, Braves, Mets, Padres all have better starters than the Reds.



The good thing is that they're at least averagish. The defense seems to be above average (which helps the pitching) and the offense is excellent so those things combine for wins.

Yep. It's heresy I know, but they aren't great. They're FB pitchers and defenders get to those more often than they do GB's; really great defenders really get to them. We've got really great defenders.

Falls City Beer
08-03-2010, 08:22 PM
Where do you buy your crack? Cause that must be some good stuff.

Look it up.

nate
08-03-2010, 08:22 PM
Where do you buy your crack? Cause that must be some good stuff.

There's a quality response.

Want to try again?

Falls City Beer
08-03-2010, 08:31 PM
By the bye, Damon would be an excellent target for the Reds' trips out to the massive ballparks of the west. His OBP would ease some of the reliance on the HR ball for generating offense.

Caveat Emperor
08-03-2010, 09:19 PM
Look it up.

I did. And I can't figure the math that has the Chicago Cubs with demonstrably better pitching than the Reds. Team ERA, H/9, BB/9 all favor the Reds -- Cubs pitchers strike out more batters, but produce fewer QS.

I'm not saying the Reds have great pitching, but I am agreeing that crack is probably required to make the statement, conclusively, that the Cubs have a better staff than the Reds.

Falls City Beer
08-03-2010, 09:21 PM
I did. And I can't figure the math that has the Chicago Cubs with demonstrably better pitching than the Reds. Team ERA, H/9, BB/9 all favor the Reds -- Cubs pitchers strike out more batters, but produce fewer QS.

I'm not saying the Reds have great pitching, but I am agreeing that crack is probably required to make the statement, conclusively, that the Cubs have a better staff than the Reds.

First, nate was talking about starters. And almost every defense-independent stat backs the claim that the Cubs have better starters. But the Reds have much better defense obviously.

nemesis
08-03-2010, 09:44 PM
Want to try again?

Sure.

Reds ERA+ (Hitters Park)

Wood +175
Maloney +140 (AAA)
Cueto +126
Leake +118
Arroyo +106
LeCure +87 (AAA)
Harang +84 (DL)
Bailey +77 (DL)
Volquez +67

Averaged out.

#1 starter +126 Cueto
#2 starter +118 Leake
#3 starter +111 Wood/Lecure/Bailey (22 Starts combined)
#4 starter +106 Arroyo
#5 starter +89 Volquez/Harang/Maloney (22 Starts combined)

5 with Positive ERA+. 4 still in rotation. 3 over 110.


Marlins ERA+ (Pitchers Park)

Johnson +212
Sanchez +125
Nolasco +97
Sanabia +91
Volstad +88
Robertson +76 (Released)

2 with positive ERA+. 2 in rotation. 2 over 110. Advantage: Reds.


Houston (Hitters Park)

Myers +133
Oswalt +120 (traded)
Paulino +94
Wright +94 (Bullpen)
Rodriguez +92
Moehler +84 (DL)
Norris +73
Happ N/A

2 with positive ERA+. 1 in rotation. 1 over 110. Advantage: Reds.


Chicago ERA+ (Neutral Park)

Gorzelanny +127
Lilly +119 (Traded)
Silva +113
Dempster +112
Wells +100
Zambrano +77

5 with positive ERA+. 4 in rotation. 3 over 110. Advantage: Push


Colorado ERA+ (Hitters Park)

Jimenez +168
Chacin +111
Hammel +103
Francis +101
De La Rosa +90
Cook +88
Smith +72

4 with positive ERA+. 4 in rotation. 2 over 110. Advantage: Reds.


Mets ERA+ (Pitchers Park)

Dickey +174
Santana +126
Niese +107
Pelphry +98
Takahashi +94
Maine +66
Perez +61

3 with positive ERA+. 3 still in rotation. 2 over 110. Advantage: Reds.


Braves (Neutral Park)

Hudson +171
Medlin +110
Hanson +105
Lowe +88
Jurrjens +88
Kawakami +85

3 with positive ERA+. 3 in rotation. 2 over 110. Advantage: Reds


Dodgers (Pitchers Park)

Kershaw +132
Padilla +112
Monasterios +111
Kuroda +105
Billingsley +102
Ely +84
Ortiz +62
Haeger +46

5 with Positive ERA+. 4 in Rotation. 2 over 110. Advantage: Reds.


St. Louis (Neutral Park)

Wainwright +184
Garcia +173
Carpenter +138
Penny +125
Suppan +98
Westbrook +87
Hawksworth +75 (Our Savior)
Lohse +69

4 with Positive ERA+. 3 in Rotation. 3 over 110. Advantage: Push.


San Diego (Pitchers Park)

Latos +148
LeBlanc +104
Garland +101
Richard +101
Correja +72

4 with Positive ERA+. 4 in rotation. 1 over 110. Advantage: Reds.


San Francisco (Neutral Park)

Bumgardner +159
Cain +144
Lincecum +138
Zito +127
Sanchez +121
Wellemeyer +78

5 with Positive ERA+. 5 in rotation. 5 over 110. Advantage: Giants.

2 pushes, one team clearly better.


Quality enough post for ya?

nate
08-03-2010, 09:47 PM
I did. And I can't figure the math that has the Chicago Cubs with demonstrably better pitching than the Reds. Team ERA, H/9, BB/9 all favor the Reds -- Cubs pitchers strike out more batters, but produce fewer QS.

I'm not saying the Reds have great pitching, but I am agreeing that crack is probably required to make the statement, conclusively, that the Cubs have a better staff than the Reds.

I was talking about starting pitching. Here are their ranks by stat.


K/9 BB/9 K/BB HR/9 AVG WHIP BABIP LOB% ERA FIP E-F xFIP
Cubs 3 6 3 10 11 9 14 8 10 6 10 5
Reds 14 7 14 12 5 7 2 5 8 13 4 15



The Cubs are better than the Reds in everything that doesn't have a defensive element. This makes sense as the Reds' D is really good and the Cubs D is plain good.

At the very least, it's close and certainly not worthy of implying one is on crack to say so.

Falls City Beer
08-03-2010, 09:48 PM
That's a pretty gamed framing of the stats, nemesis.

nemesis
08-03-2010, 09:59 PM
That's a pretty gamed framing of the stats, nemesis.

In the end ERA+ tells the whole story with all stats combined. K's, Walks, Runs, Hits, Wins and losses. It's the whole body of work. Not a independently picked stat. Arroyo's lack of K's holds down his ERA+. Does that mean he isn't as good a pitcher as Dempster or Silva? Who would you prefer to start a playoff game?

Falls City Beer
08-03-2010, 10:01 PM
In the end ERA+ tells the whole story with all stats combined. K's, Walks, Runs, Hits, Wins and losses. It's the whole body of work. Not a independently picked stat. Arroyo's lack of K's holds down his ERA+. Does that mean he isn't as good a pitcher as Dempster or Silva? Who would you prefer to start a playoff game?

This is a confusing argument.

nate
08-03-2010, 10:04 PM
Sure.
Quality enough post for ya?

Not when you're including guys with a handful of IPs and their ERA+ as part of your criteria, no. Not when you're figuring in defense (ERA+ uses defense) to rate a staff. Not when you're measuring simply with one metric whose makeup is probably 35%-50% defense.

I'm looking at this:


K/9 BB/9 K/BB HR/9 AVG WHIP BABIP LOB% ERA FIP E-F xFIP
Marlins 5 1 1 2 9 3 8 8 5 1 8 6
Cardinals 8 2 3 4 8 3 5 3 1 2 3 1
Astros 4 8 5 3 7 9 9 11 10 3 10 2
Dodgers 2 6 4 5 4 6 7 9 7 4 9 2
Rockies 6 10 9 1 5 10 6 10 11 5 11 4
Cubs 3 4 2 9 10 8 11 7 9 6 7 4
Giants 1 11 7 7 1 1 1 2 2 7 2 9
Braves 10 3 6 6 3 2 4 6 4 8 5 8
Mets 9 7 10 8 11 11 9 4 6 9 6 10
Padres 7 9 8 9 2 5 3 1 3 10 1 7
Reds 11 5 11 11 5 6 2 5 7 11 4 11


So, these are the teams I mentioned as having better starting pitching than the Reds with their peripherals and a few other stats on the year. The number is the ranking in that particular category. I only see one stat (BB/9) that isn't defense-dependent having the Reds finish in the Senior circuit and even that ranking is very "fulcrum-like."

Still not seeing how any of this would indicate "cracking it up."

Falls City Beer
08-03-2010, 10:09 PM
As the Buccos put up a 6 spot in two innings against Leake. Depth =/= production.

nate
08-03-2010, 10:09 PM
In the end ERA+ tells the whole story with all stats combined. K's, Walks, Runs, Hits, Wins and losses. It's the whole body of work. Not a independently picked stat. Arroyo's lack of K's holds down his ERA+. Does that mean he isn't as good a pitcher as Dempster or Silva? Who would you prefer to start a playoff game?

ERA+ is simply ERA vs. the league. It has nothing to do with K, BB, hits, wins or losses.

The stat that encompasses everything a pitcher does is one of the defense-independent stats like FIP, SIERRA, tERA, xFIP, etc.

westofyou
08-03-2010, 10:13 PM
As the Buccos put up a 6 spot in two innings against Leake. Depth =/= production.

Darn hard game it is.

Falls City Beer
08-03-2010, 10:16 PM
Darn hard game it is.

Some of us understand that. A certain GM felt we were good to go.

paintmered
08-03-2010, 10:16 PM
Let's get this back on topic.

Chip R
08-04-2010, 01:39 AM
I guess it wasn't so stupid to put Votto on the DL.

The Operator
08-04-2010, 02:17 AM
As the Buccos put up a 6 spot in two innings against Leake. Depth =/= production.

Jaime Garcia gave up 10 hits and 4 ER in 5 IP tonight. It happens.

Ron Madden
08-04-2010, 04:17 AM
Marlins, Cardinals, Astros (yes, really), Dodgers, Rockies, Cubs, Braves, Mets, Padres all have better starters than the Reds.



The Rockies are _really_ doing it at Coors.

None of those guys have been amongst the four best at anything this year. Not on the season and not in any infinitesimal split. That doesn't mean I don't like them, but there's really no metric where the staff comes up as "good" in any regard.

The good thing is that they're at least averagish. The defense seems to be above average (which helps the pitching) and the offense is excellent so those things combine for wins.

The whole story in a nutshell. :thumbup:

Ron Madden
08-04-2010, 04:23 AM
Great to hear.

Makes the Francisco callup a little more odd, but oh well.

I think Fracisco was called up to start at third base for Rolen on Wednesday if Votto was unable to go and Cairo had to start at First Base.

Caveat Emperor
08-04-2010, 09:36 AM
Jaime Garcia gave up 10 hits and 4 ER in 5 IP tonight. It happens.

Stop talking badly about the Cardinals. Remember the following rule of thumb:

Cardinals = Always right and destined for success.
Reds = Always wrong and destnied for mediocrity.

Ghosts of 1990
08-04-2010, 10:13 AM
Stop talking badly about the Cardinals. Remember the following rule of thumb:

Cardinals = Always right and destined for success.
Reds = Always wrong and destnied for mediocrity.

The last decade plus would say your formula is close to correct though.

Scrap Irony
08-04-2010, 12:25 PM
ERA+ is simply ERA vs. the league. It has nothing to do with K, BB, hits, wins or losses.

The stat that encompasses everything a pitcher does is one of the defense-independent stats like FIP, SIERRA, tERA, xFIP, etc.

I would argue that a good pitcher uses what his defense can give him. And ERA+ shows the runs actually given up by the pitcher, not what he may give up perephially as the season wears on.

In the end, all that matters are the runs that are given up.

To that end, the Reds are slightly above average, perhaps moreso, considering the talent level of the fifth starter candidate (Volquez) and his possible replacement (Bailey).