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View Full Version : Keep on ripping on Bruce and Stubbs..



NorrisHopper30
08-04-2010, 12:26 AM
I say Gomes has been even worse. Bruce's OBP is still higher than Gomes and at least Stubbs and Bruce play a solid defense.

Give me Heisey, Stubbs, Bruce outfield and we are more productive. Gomes is garbage.

webbbj
08-04-2010, 12:42 AM
gomes has a mohawk though

GIDP
08-04-2010, 12:46 AM
Ive been trying for weeks to get people to see the light.

redsrolen
08-04-2010, 12:48 AM
gomes has a mohawk though

LOL:thumbup:

NorrisHopper30
08-04-2010, 12:55 AM
Give me Heisey, Stubbs, Bruce or Dickerson, Heisey, Bruce or something. I can't handle Gomes anymore. How many times has he popped it up straight in the air this year or struck out in a critical situation? I know he has a lot of RBI but I can name 100 other players who would in the same batting spot in this lineup that would have as many or more RBI.

Hondo
08-04-2010, 12:55 AM
Well Boys... This Team just needs an EXTRA BIG Bat to move these guys down in the lineup.

Thats all!

GIDP
08-04-2010, 12:59 AM
Well Boys... This Team just needs an EXTRA BIG Bat to move these guys down in the lineup.

Thats all!

Dropping the worst hitters on the team out of the 2 spot would be a huge start.

Hondo
08-04-2010, 01:01 AM
Dropping the worst hitters on the team out of the 2 spot would be a huge start.

Yeah, but that would mean we have to get like Cal Ripken to play SS so the 2 hole will atleast have a chance to get some production...

I am all for the Cosart to come up.

Reds
08-04-2010, 01:06 AM
I'm going to stick up for Gomes. I do wish his defense was better overall, but I think his bat will come around again and he'll produce with some big hits here in the next couple weeks. Either you believe that or you might as well bench the guy, his average is more realistic now, and I think the best thing he can bring to the table are big hits.

zjr1717
08-04-2010, 01:08 AM
Bruce and Stubbs are definitely more valuable than Gomes when you include their defense and the positions they play, along with how well they play said positions.

I'd like to see Heisey get a shot but I'm not sure he's more than a fourth outfielder, only way to find out is to play him. Though we are in a pennant race, I think he can be at least as productive as Gomes.

It would be nice to see Gomes play his proper role, lefty masher (.879 career OPS, and .846 this year against them) getting starts against lefties filling in for one of the three outfielders, and as a bat off the bench. You can shift Heisey to center if you wanna sit Stubbs. This is the best way to work the outfield right now, but when Dickerson comes back...

Stubbs and Bruce get bashed on this board much to often, they're kids, let em' play. They're giving positive value and doing it for really cheap, its tough to complain about that IMO.

sivman17
08-04-2010, 01:08 AM
Gomes had a great May and a decent June. His hot streak has been over for well over a month and a half. I don't trust that his bat will come around.

We NEED serious help in the outfield.

GIDP
08-04-2010, 01:08 AM
Yeah, but that would mean we have to get like Cal Ripken to play SS so the 2 hole will atleast have a chance to get some production...

I am all for the Cosart to come up.

:laugh:

Seriously though Bruce has struggled as much as anyone as of late. Probably more than anyone. You think Dusty could maybe mix it up? I mean if hes going to continue to play Bruce and Gomes you would think he could switch the line up around some. Try Bruce in the 2 hole, maybe Gomes there.

Move the catchers up to 7th move Janish to 8th and bat Gomes or Heisey or Stubbs 6th.

Gotta mix this up a little its getting a little to repetitive for a few of these Reds hitters, and going into a game where Janish and Cairo, even though hes hitting well, are your 2 and 3 hole hitters seems like a you are just begging for something to blow up in your face.

Mix the order up PLEASE.

sivman17
08-04-2010, 01:13 AM
Try Bruce in the 2 hole, maybe Gomes there.

I would like to see Bruce or Gomes bat 2nd. They really need something to get off the schnide.

The #2 hitters have hit .312 for the Reds this season, with over 60% of those ABs coming from OCab, Cairo, and Janish. If every hitter has had success there, even bad hitters like OCab and Janish, it only makes sense to try Bruce there.

GIDP
08-04-2010, 01:16 AM
I would like to see Bruce or Gomes bat 2nd. They really need something to get off the schnide.

The #2 hitters have hit .312 for the Reds this season, with over 60% of those ABs coming from OCab, Cairo, and Janish. If every hitter has had success there, even bad hitters like OCab and Janish, it only makes sense to try Bruce there.

I think it would certainly take some pressure off Bruce. Or let Gomes and his swing at everything mentality maybe see some more strikes so he doesnt take really hard hacks at low and outside balls as much.

Roush's socks
08-04-2010, 01:34 AM
Give me Heisey, Stubbs, Bruce or Dickerson, Heisey, Bruce or something. I can't handle Gomes anymore. How many times has he popped it up straight in the air this year or struck out in a critical situation? I know he has a lot of RBI but I can name 100 other players who would in the same batting spot in this lineup that would have as many or more RBI.

Gomes' high RBI isn't all luck. .375 BA with RISP helps out in that matter. Gomes has .301 BA in 166 AB with runners on, and a .236 BA in 174 AB with no runners on. That is a pretty huge split. Still, something has to change. Heisey in CF over Stubbs is a start. Bringing in Dickerson as a LH batter to play either LF or CF against RHP would also help.

Bruce had a .508 OPS in July which is beyond terrible, but Gomes was .673 and that was while playing terrible defense, while Bruce plays good defense. Still, I think they keep playing Gomes with his 65 RBI and .300 BA with RISP. If I was in charge I would try to use the platoon with Dickerson and Nix getting more AB's against RHP.

Roush's socks
08-04-2010, 01:39 AM
I think it would certainly take some pressure off Bruce. Or let Gomes and his swing at everything mentality maybe see some more strikes so he doesnt take really hard hacks at low and outside balls as much.

I could see Bruce as a #2 hitter. It might get him to shorten his swing and start hitting for contact more. I do think the #2 hitter gets to see more good pitches than a lot of the batting order, with Votto and Rolen on deck.

Hondo
08-04-2010, 01:42 AM
I could see Bruce as a #2 hitter. It might get him to shorten his swing and start hitting for contact more. I do think the #2 hitter gets to see more good pitches than a lot of the batting order, with Votto and Rolen on deck.

I CONCUR

GIDP
08-04-2010, 01:48 AM
I could see Bruce as a #2 hitter. It might get him to shorten his swing and start hitting for contact more. I do think the #2 hitter gets to see more good pitches than a lot of the batting order, with Votto and Rolen on deck.

Bruce already has a pretty good eye. I mean for all extensive purposes he was a .825 OPS bat before July.

Up until July 2nd Bruce was hitting .281/.358/.472 and hes fallen completely off the map.

His monthly splits were
.263 .333 .500
.270 .387 .440
.307 .339 .485

I have a hard time believing Bruce suddenly lost something so much that he wont get it back together.

scott91575
08-04-2010, 02:28 AM
Bruce already has a pretty good eye. I mean for all extensive purposes he was a .825 OPS bat before July.

Really? I hope that is a joke.

GIDP
08-04-2010, 02:42 AM
Really? I hope that is a joke.

No it isnt. He had walk rates of 10% and 15% for the first 2 months of the year.

Its been cut in half basically the last 2 months. I think that is directly linked to his contact rates dropping because hes seeing a lot of pitches and trying to hit them. I think hes trying to expand his zone, and in the process hes expanding it too far and instead of letting the pitcher walk him like he did to start the year hes getting himself out and doing the pitcher a favor. If you look at his stats on fangraphs it certainly suggest that his contact of pitches outside the strike zone is really killing his over all contact rates. Hes right around the league average for everything else. He sees below the league average of pitches in the zone. I think hes compounding the issue right now by expanding his zone too much.

He had OPS of .833 .827 and .825 in all 3 months before July.

GIDP
08-04-2010, 02:45 AM
I just realized you were probably making fun of how I butchered that saying :laugh:

Give me a break I'm going to blame me being sick for that awesome line.

scott91575
08-04-2010, 02:48 AM
I just realized you were probably making fun of how I butchered that saying :laugh:

Give me a break I'm going to blame me being sick for that awesome line.

There you go. I actually agree with what you say, well, except the phrase extensive purposes.

GIDP
08-04-2010, 02:52 AM
I've been slamming Nyquil and Tylenol Cold and Sinus medicine for like 5 days. I basically just sounded it out and didnt even realize.

Griffey012
08-04-2010, 11:02 AM
I just wish Gomes would hit his stinking 100th Home Run. He is worse than A-Rod trying to go for 600.

He is 9-51 with 1 RBI since hitting #99. That is an Arroyoesque line at the plate. Someone needs to wake him up and get him to go back to hitting the opposite way instead of trying to hit #100 500 feet.

I think we should see Heisey much more across all 3 outfield positions. Gomes still should start against lefties. Against righties it should depend on who we are facing and where we are playing. Gomes should never see the field when we are playing in spacious stadiums like Petco.

redssince75
08-04-2010, 11:25 AM
I think we should see Heisey much more across all 3 outfield positions.

I didn't see the game. For those who did, what's up with striking out looking at all 3 strikes in the final at bat of the game? Is Heisey going on the DL because his arms don't work?

Reds
08-04-2010, 11:27 AM
I didn't see the game. For those who did, what's up with striking out looking at all 3 strikes in the final at bat of the game? Is Heisey going on the DL because his arms don't work?

Questionable third strike call, some would tell you. I didn't see it, I had already switched to radio by that point.

Griffey012
08-04-2010, 11:33 AM
I didn't see the game. For those who did, what's up with striking out looking at all 3 strikes in the final at bat of the game? Is Heisey going on the DL because his arms don't work?

Marty made it sound like it was a pretty bad strike 3 call. Either way, he went 2-4 with a BB and 2 RBI's. If Gomes or Bruce would have came through with RISP it wouldn't have mattered. Heisey came through twice.

bounty37h
08-04-2010, 11:39 AM
I say Gomes has been even worse. Bruce's OBP is still higher than Gomes and at least Stubbs and Bruce play a solid defense.

Give me Heisey, Stubbs, Bruce outfield and we are more productive. Gomes is garbage.

We are in first place, and each of those guys has played a role in that, I dont see the need to rip on anyone to be honest with you. Ridiculous to call him garbage.

bounty37h
08-04-2010, 11:42 AM
Questionable third strike call, some would tell you. I didn't see it, I had already switched to radio by that point.

If you have already watched 2 strikes go by without a swing, there isnt much of a thing as a close 3'rd strike call to argue.

DocRed
08-04-2010, 11:56 AM
Probably the only thing keeping Bruce in the lineup is that anyone else would be a significant downgrade defensively in RF. You can't say the same thing about Stubbs.

Alpha Zero
08-04-2010, 12:12 PM
If you have already watched 2 strikes go by without a swing, there isnt much of a thing as a bad 3'rd strike call.

Really? Have you ever played baseball?

If you're confident in your 2 strike approach, there's no reason to swing at strikes 1 and 2 if you don't get the pitch that you're looking for.

Fon Duc Tow
08-04-2010, 12:26 PM
I mean for all extensive purposes ...



irregardless though, just guesstimate. It is what it is.


:D

bounty37h
08-04-2010, 12:32 PM
Really? Have you ever played baseball?

If you're confident in your 2 strike approach, there's no reason to swing at strikes 1 and 2 if you don't get the pitch that you're looking for.

Yup, years and years. If its last at bat and you have watched 2 go by, you dont watch a third if its close. Not hard to figure out, if you have ever played?

Alpha Zero
08-04-2010, 12:45 PM
Yup, years and years. If its last at bat and you have watched 2 go by, you dont watch a third if its close. Not hard to figure out, if you have ever played?

Agreed. You have to expand the strike zone a bit with 2 strikes in any situation, but there's still nothing wrong with letting the first 2 strikes go by as you stated in your previous post.

BurgervilleBuck
08-04-2010, 12:49 PM
gomes has a mohawk though

Mock all you want, he is a spark in the clubhouse. That said, it's time to sit him in favor of someone better.

bounty37h
08-04-2010, 12:53 PM
Agreed. You have to expand the strike zone a bit with 2 strikes in any situation, but there's still nothing wrong with letting the first 2 strikes go by as you stated in your previous post.

Oh, misunderstanding between us then; I wasnt saying anything regarding those 2 strikes, was just saying when you have already watched 2 go by, you cant expect the call on the 3'rd if its close.

texasdave
08-04-2010, 01:13 PM
Agreed. You have to expand the strike zone a bit with 2 strikes in any situation, but there's still nothing wrong with letting the first 2 strikes go by as you stated in your previous post.

Especially if it is the first time you have ever faced a particular pitcher. I have no problem with Heisey taking a strike or two. But when you get to two strikes you can't keep the bat on your shoulder on a borderline pitch.

Alpha Zero
08-04-2010, 01:24 PM
Oh, misunderstanding between us then; I wasnt saying anything regarding those 2 strikes, was just saying when you have already watched 2 go by, you cant expect the call on the 3'rd if its close.

We are in agreement.

mu4103
08-04-2010, 03:24 PM
I say Gomes has been even worse. Bruce's OBP is still higher than Gomes and at least Stubbs and Bruce play a solid defense.

Give me Heisey, Stubbs, Bruce outfield and we are more productive. Gomes is garbage.

I agree. Stubbs and Heisey's speed (Heisey was a pretty solid minor league basestealer - 32 in 08, 21 in 09) will make a great defense and Bruce should come out of his slump. I don't think it is time to give up on Gomes. A four man outfield that rotates, could really go a long way (Heisey can play all 3 positions). If a player emerges than make him an everyday guy.

What will be interesting is when Dickerson comes up - who will go down (unless they are waiting until September). At that point, I don't know what the best outfield would be. You could really rotate all of them. Think about a Heisey (RF), Dickerson (LF), Stubbs (CF) defensive outfield. (but I think Bruce and Gomes are going to be vital parts the rest of the way).

When Dickerson comes up I think the Reds outfield could go from a weakness to a strength. Lots of talent in the outfield (Stubbs still needs to prove he can hit and get on base). It just sucks when they are all slumping at the same time. If not, though, we probably wouldn't be able to see what Heisey can do and I think that will be important for the stretch run.

Texas Pete
08-04-2010, 04:00 PM
I like Stubbs A LOT as a player, but I'm not sure what I'd like to see done with him at this point.

Bruce will be fine (imo). I'd keep Bruce in the lineup consistently.

GIDP
08-04-2010, 04:05 PM
I like Stubbs A LOT as a player, but I'm not sure what I'd like to see done with him at this point.

Bruce will be fine (imo). I'd keep Bruce in the lineup consistently.

The one thing I think people dont realize at times is that CFers typically arent the greatest of hitters. Stubbs hasn't hit amazing but he has been good enough that finding his replacement is that easy. Then again people hate him so much that they will say his D isnt good also so fans probably wouldnt care if you replaced him with Cairo in center.

bgwilly31
08-04-2010, 04:18 PM
Bruce will be fine (imo). I'd keep Bruce in the lineup consistently.


Your right. I mean he's only 23. Of course he will be fine. Leave him there to stink it up for the rest of the season for the first world series push this team has had in over a decade.

I agree with you if this was like every other season in the past decade for the reds. Play him out to see what we got. In this case you just can NOT do that. Its amazing to me people think this way.

lidspinner
08-04-2010, 07:16 PM
Jay has to be sat down....no way can you sit Stubbs and consider sending him to aaa and then do nothing with JB.....will he come out of his slump? sure.....but let his slump continue into this playoff run and maybe into the playoffs and he will be the talk of every media outlet that can get their hands on him....they will eat him alive...and as you said, he is 23.....a 23 year old that gets fed to the sharks usually dont recover to well.

you sit JB now, maybe not send him down....but sit him and let him get his mind away from things....we have enough talent on this roster to allow that to happen. Once Jay gets his head on straight, then slowly start getting him back....this kid has Gold Glove all start wrote all over him...but his confidence is so weak right now that I would bet that Marty Breneman could strike him out. Give him a week or 2 off and get him back for that last big push.....he is not helping us or himself at this point in time.

Old NDN
08-05-2010, 01:35 PM
I agree with posts #42 and 43. Bruce should be sat down more often. (Gee, I think I've said that in a number of threads already). I'm not anti Bruce. I just think his production doesn't equate to the number of opportunities he's getting. Give more PT to the other OFs. If you think Dickerson is the answer, then figure out a way to get him up here.

Vottomatic
08-05-2010, 04:32 PM
I'm sick of all of them except Heisey. We're finally seeing Chris get a prolonged chance (hopefully) to show us what he can do.

Bruce has no confidence and makes no adjustments at the plate. Stubbs likes to watch the pitch go by him. Both are K machines. It just gets tiring.

Gomes atleast hits with RISP.

Roush's socks
08-05-2010, 10:38 PM
Sorting out the outfield is THE issue right now for the Reds. They have Bruce, Stubbs and Gomes all slumping. Outside of making a trade, Heisey, Nix, Dickerson and maybe even JuanF are options. Gomes is on pace to be around 100 RBI and I really think they keep playing him. Stubbs looks like he is out for now, but I could see Heisey and Dickerson splitting time in a platoon situation.

Bruce is the big ???? The Reds have a lot invested in him as a key player of the future, and you don't want to give up on someone of his talent and ceiling because he had a bad month. After all, he had a terrible July, but up until then he was hitting. Everyone knows he has the skills to hit. How to get him hitting again? They could send him to AAA and hope that he gets into a groove against some easier pitchers. On the other hand, it might ruin his confidence and send mixed signals about the Reds trust in him. Also, hitting minor league pitchimg won't necessarily help him fix his issues. AAA pitchers aren't as good at getting impatient hitters out, and they don't miss bats nearly as much.

My take- I would keep Heisey in CF as long as he's hot, and if he comes back to earth, bring in Dickerson as a platoon tandem. Dickerson can't hit LHP anyway. In LF keep Gomes for now and hope he gets hot again, I think he will. Again, Dickerson and/or Nix would get some starts against RHP. In RF I think they should stay with Bruce and maybe move him around in the batting order, maybe to the #2 spot, where he might see more strikes.

ILoveWilly
08-05-2010, 10:42 PM
Who cares? It's like arguing over who's dump smells the worst. None of them are playing worth a crap right now, and Dickerson and Heisey should be the two everyday outfielders at this point with a pick em among the rest.