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View Full Version : Wasting Votto is just another example



brm7675
08-04-2010, 09:58 AM
As I sat and watched last nights game I at first felt very sorry for Leake, he got hosed on Rolens horrible play at 3rd in the second which went from being what should have been a double play to runners on 2nd and 3rd, which then lead to 2 runs on a bloop single. Then he plunked the Pirate and that I believe really shook him up a bit and before he knew it the Pirates had posted 6. But then I shook my head in disbelief when I saw our "manager" do one of the dumbest things I ever saw. He has Votto pinch hit for Janish. This proves A) Janish should have never been hitting second B) Dusty has no real baseball sense because everyone watching KNEW they would intentionally walk Votto C) this ment Cairo would now be playing SS. All 3 things show how inept our manager is and how Walt needs to make a change NOW to try and save this season. I am this close to wanting this team to fail down the stretch just so Walt will make a change and get a manager in here that knows how to manager good talent, because right now, our manager is costing us games.:thumbdown

Moosie52
08-04-2010, 10:01 AM
All 3 things show how inept our manager is and how Walt needs to make a change NOW to try and save this season.

8/4/2010
Reds 60-48
Cards 59-48

After 108 games the Reds are in first place. Enjoy it.

Orodle
08-04-2010, 10:09 AM
If you gunna bat Votto and have him play the field then why not just start him is my question. Either way they wasted a game without Votto for the most part or they wasted a rest day for Votto.

jmbraun773
08-04-2010, 10:14 AM
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha......ridiculous.

Reds
08-04-2010, 10:19 AM
If we somehow tie the game his bat is in the lineup for extras, that's all I was thinking after they walked him to get to Cairo. Cairo gets a knock and we see Votto in the 10th, didn't happen.

Dusty (from his quotes) feels comfortable playing Cairo anywhere on the infield, not just the corners. Or, at least, that's how he's acting.

redssince75
08-04-2010, 10:23 AM
All 3 things show how inept our manager is and how Walt needs to make a change NOW to try and save this season. I am this close to wanting this team to fail down the stretch just so Walt will make a change and get a manager in here that knows how to manager good talent, because right now, our manager is costing us games.:thumbdown

If you can cite for me any other instance in post-1900 baseball history where a first-place team has fired their manager in August or September, I will read more of your posts. Otherwise, you've just won the "dunce of the decade" hat and I'll have to put you on ignore.

brm7675
08-04-2010, 10:27 AM
If you can cite for me any other instance in post-1900 baseball history where a first-place team has fired their manager in August or September, I will read more of your posts. Otherwise, you've just won the "dunce of the decade" hat and I'll have to put you on ignore.

I beleive the Philly's did it back in either the 70's or 80's. But what does it matter if it's been done before. We have the talent to be better then where we are, we continue to see this so called "manager" make dumb move after dumb move.

CySeymour
08-04-2010, 10:32 AM
I think it was one of those things where he felt he had to use Votto there, or not get a chance to use him at all. If he lets' Janish hit and makes an out, then the runner would be stranded anyway, without Votto getting a chance to drive it in.

redssince75
08-04-2010, 10:37 AM
I agree with BigKlu. I don't have a problem using Votto there. It's not automatic he was going to be intentionally walked. Even if he is, you sub Cairo for Janish as the hitter who has to come through. I assume that's a wash, and then you have Votto on base for the possible go-ahead run.

Griffey012
08-04-2010, 10:40 AM
As I sat and watched last nights game I at first felt very sorry for Leake, he got hosed on Rolens horrible play at 3rd in the second which went from being what should have been a double play to runners on 2nd and 3rd, which then lead to 2 runs on a bloop single. Then he plunked the Pirate and that I believe really shook him up a bit and before he knew it the Pirates had posted 6. But then I shook my head in disbelief when I saw our "manager" do one of the dumbest things I ever saw. He has Votto pinch hit for Janish. This proves A) Janish should have never been hitting second B) Dusty has no real baseball sense because everyone watching KNEW they would intentionally walk Votto C) this ment Cairo would now be playing SS. All 3 things show how inept our manager is and how Walt needs to make a change NOW to try and save this season. I am this close to wanting this team to fail down the stretch just so Walt will make a change and get a manager in here that knows how to manager good talent, because right now, our manager is costing us games.:thumbdown

Who do you want at the plate with 2 outs and the game on the line Janish or Cairo. Cairo is a no brainer, they would have pitched to Janish and not walked him. By putting Joey in we get to have Cairo at the plate. Also, Joey is nursing a sore wrist, he probably isn't able to take a full rip at the plate so Dusty could have been putting him up there fully knowing he would get walked. If Votto is swinging like Votto he would have hit when Francisco did earlier in the game, well and plus he would be playing anyway.

Cairo playing SS is irrelevant because if we don't score it doesn't matter who is playing where or how many runs we give up.

As far as your last point about being close to wanting this team to fail down the stretch...I am pretty sure the Cubs would welcome more fans. If you really feel that way I am not sure how you can call yourself a Reds "fan". I despise of Mike Lincoln cause I think he is a terrible pitcher, but I will never root for the guy to fail while on the hill for the Reds because it is not for the good of the team.

brm7675
08-04-2010, 10:40 AM
Your kidding right? A blind man could have told you they were going to walk him. My god why would they pitch to him when they have a base open? Here is a thought, let Janish hit, I mean if Dusty likes him enough to hit him 2nd then he must think he can hit or you don't bat him in the 2 spot. You know they are going to pitch to Janish. If Janish gets a hit, then you bring Votto to hit for Cairo and then play first. If Janish gets out, you have Votto hit for Cairo to lead off the 9th. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

Redlegs_87
08-04-2010, 10:46 AM
I have yet to see BRM post anything positive. Jumps at the chance to moan and groan about anything. He is good for a laugh every now and then.

BigJohn
08-04-2010, 10:50 AM
You can bet your ass (donkey), I was yelling at my TV when it was happening!!!!

:cool:

DocRed
08-04-2010, 10:52 AM
I'm not saying it was the right decision but I'll play devil's advocate here. Would you rather have....


1. Runners on first and second with Cairo up

or

2. Runner on 2nd with Janish up

GIDP
08-04-2010, 10:54 AM
Dustys mistake was using janish in the 2 spot knowing that of everyone in the line up him and the pitcher are the 2 most likely to be pinch hit for.

brm7675
08-04-2010, 10:54 AM
Who do you want at the plate with 2 outs and the game on the line Janish or Cairo. Cairo is a no brainer, they would have pitched to Janish and not walked him. By putting Joey in we get to have Cairo at the plate. Also, Joey is nursing a sore wrist, he probably isn't able to take a full rip at the plate so Dusty could have been putting him up there fully knowing he would get walked. If Votto is swinging like Votto he would have hit when Francisco did earlier in the game, well and plus he would be playing anyway.

Cairo playing SS is irrelevant because if we don't score it doesn't matter who is playing where or how many runs we give up.

As far as your last point about being close to wanting this team to fail down the stretch...I am pretty sure the Cubs would welcome more fans. If you really feel that way I am not sure how you can call yourself a Reds "fan". I despise of Mike Lincoln cause I think he is a terrible pitcher, but I will never root for the guy to fail while on the hill for the Reds because it is not for the good of the team.

I want someone at the plate who they are going to pitch to. Plus we wasted Votto, and if his wrist was that big of an issue he shouldn't be up there at all. Cairo playing SS is relevant, it was still just a 1 run game, why weaken your defense in the bottom of the 8th and risk the Pirates adding on more runs? I can't believe you can't see how stupid this whole switch was. Also, had Dusty made the correct lineup card, Janish wouldn't have been coming to bat, it should have either been Heisey or Hernandez or at worse Bruce. If you don't have confidence in your number 2 hitter to get a hit, then he shouldn't be hitting in the number 2 slot.:thumbdown

HalMorrisRules
08-04-2010, 10:55 AM
Who do you want at the plate with 2 outs and the game on the line Janish or Cairo. Cairo is a no brainer, they would have pitched to Janish and not walked him. By putting Joey in we get to have Cairo at the plate. Also, Joey is nursing a sore wrist, he probably isn't able to take a full rip at the plate so Dusty could have been putting him up there fully knowing he would get walked.

This is exactly what I felt last night. He didnt WANT Joey to swing but he didnt want Janish batting either. I didnt need further confirmation why
I have brm on ignore but this just solidifies my decision. I am sick to death of his countless stupid threads that he starts each day clogging the board up.

brm7675
08-04-2010, 10:57 AM
I'm not saying it was the right decision but I'll play devil's advocate here. Would you rather have....


1. Runners on first and second with Cairo up

or

2. Runner on 2nd with Janish up

Neither, I would have had runner at 2nd and Chris Heisey up because that is who should have been hitting second. Again, the screwed up lineup that Dusty made is what created this mess. Also, why send up Votto, you KNOW they are not going to pitch to him at that point, why not go with another bench player at that point, maybe someone they will pitch to.

brm7675
08-04-2010, 10:58 AM
This is exactly what I felt last night. He didnt WANT Joey to swing but he didnt want Janish batting either. I didnt need further confirmation why
I have brm on ignore but this just solidifies my decision. I am sick to death of his countless stupid threads that he starts each day clogging the board up.

Hal if he didn't want Janish up there, why in god's name did he have in the 2 slot then? Why not have Janish in the 8th spot? Ignoring that our manager is an idiot won't make it go away.

redssince75
08-04-2010, 11:02 AM
Neither, I would have had runner at 2nd and Chris Heisey up because that is who should have been hitting second. Again, the screwed up lineup that Dusty made is what created this mess.




But you named the thread "wasting Votto is just another example", NOT "batting Janish 2nd is just another example." I think your arguments are just a moving target to fit your agenda.

brm7675
08-04-2010, 11:21 AM
But you named the thread "wasting Votto is just another example", NOT "batting Janish 2nd is just another example." I think your arguments are just a moving target to fit your agenda.

No, using Votto in that situation was a waste of an AB by your best batter. What I did was answer that posters question. Had Dusty constructed a good lineup card with Heisey batting second or Hernandez batting second or had 'faith' in the player he put in the second slot he wouldn't have had to waste Votto in that slot.

bounty37h
08-04-2010, 11:24 AM
Who do you want at the plate with 2 outs and the game on the line Janish or Cairo. Cairo is a no brainer, they would have pitched to Janish and not walked him. By putting Joey in we get to have Cairo at the plate. Also, Joey is nursing a sore wrist, he probably isn't able to take a full rip at the plate so Dusty could have been putting him up there fully knowing he would get walked. If Votto is swinging like Votto he would have hit when Francisco did earlier in the game, well and plus he would be playing anyway.

Cairo playing SS is irrelevant because if we don't score it doesn't matter who is playing where or how many runs we give up.

As far as your last point about being close to wanting this team to fail down the stretch...I am pretty sure the Cubs would welcome more fans. If you really feel that way I am not sure how you can call yourself a Reds "fan". I despise of Mike Lincoln cause I think he is a terrible pitcher, but I will never root for the guy to fail while on the hill for the Reds because it is not for the good of the team.

:beerme:

bornready
08-04-2010, 11:41 AM
umm...are you implying that getting another man on base when you're trying to comeback from a deficit is a bad thing?

BurgervilleBuck
08-04-2010, 11:45 AM
THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.
And yet, you keep exploding on the pad.

In the midst of their best season in years, you want to get rid of someone who has the players' trust and replace him with... who?

brm7675
08-04-2010, 11:48 AM
umm...are you implying that getting another man on base when you're trying to comeback from a deficit is a bad thing?

The objective at that point in the game was to get the runner on second home and tie the score. that is your main and only objective. The chances of that happening are greater if the person at bat has at least the opportunity to hit a pitch. Votto never even had that chance. Hitting Janish at that point increased your chances and at worse ment you could lead Votto off in the 9th when they would pitch to him and as he has shown, can drive in a game tying/winning run late in ballgames.

brm7675
08-04-2010, 11:49 AM
And yet, you keep exploding on the pad.

In the midst of their best season in years, you want to get rid of someone who has the players' trust and replace him with... who?

Well since Baltimore swept in and scooped up Buck, I would offer:

Bobby Valentine
Freddie Garcia

thorn
08-04-2010, 12:16 PM
If you can cite for me any other instance in post-1900 baseball history where a first-place team has fired their manager in August or September, I will read more of your posts. Otherwise, you've just won the "dunce of the decade" hat and I'll have to put you on ignore.


Welcome to the club

Griffey012
08-04-2010, 12:16 PM
The objective at that point in the game was to get the runner on second home and tie the score. that is your main and only objective. The chances of that happening are greater if the person at bat has at least the opportunity to hit a pitch. Votto never even had that chance. Hitting Janish at that point increased your chances and at worse ment you could lead Votto off in the 9th when they would pitch to him and as he has shown, can drive in a game tying/winning run late in ballgames.

So your saying Janish has a better shot at driving in a runner from 2nd base with 2 outs than Cairo does? I don't believe that for a second, Cairo has had multiple big 2 out RBI's this season in those exact situations.

If Votto is capable of swinging the bat well, then why was he not playing in the first place?

Griffey012
08-04-2010, 12:18 PM
Well since Baltimore swept in and scooped up Buck, I would offer:

Bobby Valentine
Freddie Garcia

You want a retired Mexican soccer player to replace Dusty? Holy Bejezus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Garcia

markymark69
08-04-2010, 12:19 PM
8/4/2010
Reds 60-48
Cards 59-48

After 108 games the Reds are in first place. Enjoy it.

It's simply not possible for some because of bias toward Baker or Cabrera or you name it. I'm with you - I've said that and then you get replies - "well you're satisfied with an inept manager, we would be better if we had someone else." I don't know how you can base a statement as a fact, but some do.

Again, this board continues to confound me. Now we get somebody that hopes the Reds fail, just so Dusty gets fired - it's amazing.

Hondo
08-04-2010, 12:19 PM
Dustys mistake was using janish in the 2 spot knowing that of everyone in the line up him and the pitcher are the 2 most likely to be pinch hit for.

I concur

brm7675
08-04-2010, 12:23 PM
So your saying Janish has a better shot at driving in a runner from 2nd base with 2 outs than Cairo does? I don't believe that for a second, Cairo has had multiple big 2 out RBI's this season in those exact situations.

If Votto is capable of swinging the bat well, then why was he not playing in the first place?

No what I am saying is that Janish had a better chance of driving in that run then Votto did since they didn't pitch to him. So you waste an AB and gained nothing from it. Let Janish hit, at Worse he gets out and guess what you can lead off with Votto at the top of the 9th and guess what, they will pitch to him and he can hit. Why put someone in the 2 spot if you don't think they can hit? Shouldn't your better hitters be in the 2 spot?

Reds
08-04-2010, 12:26 PM
From RampantReds Fan: Still no explanation why your buddy Dusty Baker would put in Joey Votto to just get walked.
__________________________________________________ _______
A: Baker said that was the biggest question of game. He used Votto there instead for Miguel Cairo becasue he liked Cairo’s chances of getting the run in better than Paul Janish. Cairo is hitting .310 with runners in scoring position. Janish is hitting .400 in a smaller sample. Baker was also more comfortable having Votto and Cairo in No. 2 and 3 hole than Janish and Cairo if the game went extra-innings.

brm7675
08-04-2010, 12:28 PM
From RampantReds Fan: Still no explanation why your buddy Dusty Baker would put in Joey Votto to just get walked.
__________________________________________________ _______
A: Baker said that was the biggest question of game. He used Votto there instead for Miguel Cairo becasue he liked Cairo’s chances of getting the run in better than Paul Janish. Cairo is hitting .310 with runners in scoring position. Janish is hitting .400 in a smaller sample. Baker was also more comfortable having Votto and Cairo in No. 2 and 3 hole than Janish and Cairo if the game went extra-innings.


yea Cairo at SS for extra innings, yep good baseball there...ug this manager wants to make me hurl...:thumbdown

texasdave
08-04-2010, 12:41 PM
We are all forgetting one thing, Dusty has no use at all for Paul Janish. Dusty would have let Arthur Rhodes hit in that situation before he let Paul Janish. The only reason Janish was on the field at all was because Cabrera was hurt. Janish is batting .400/RISP (6 for 15) and Dusty cries small sample size. Yet, how times has Dusty put someone in the lineup claiming he hits a pitcher well with numbers like 4 for 7 or 5 for 9? I suppose small sample size doesn't apply there. Anyway I will report the key point here. Dusty Baker has no use at all for Paul Janish.

Griffey012
08-04-2010, 12:43 PM
No what I am saying is that Janish had a better chance of driving in that run then Votto did since they didn't pitch to him. So you waste an AB and gained nothing from it. Let Janish hit, at Worse he gets out and guess what you can lead off with Votto at the top of the 9th and guess what, they will pitch to him and he can hit. Why put someone in the 2 spot if you don't think they can hit? Shouldn't your better hitters be in the 2 spot?

You gain the fact that Cairo has a better chance of driving in the run than Janish does. That was gained by batting Votto there.

You never answered my question though...why was Votto not starting if he was capable of swinging the bat just fine???

brm7675
08-04-2010, 12:56 PM
You gain the fact that Cairo has a better chance of driving in the run than Janish does. That was gained by batting Votto there.

You never answered my question though...why was Votto not starting if he was capable of swinging the bat just fine???

i would disagree that Cairo had a better chance than Janish and I to have to question why was Votto okay to PH and play in the field in the 9th if he wasn't able to start. Again, more signs our manager is clueless and Votto was misused last night.

Dale4Saul2Red0
08-04-2010, 01:49 PM
When will the ridiculous witch hunt end?

brm7675
08-04-2010, 01:52 PM
When will the ridiculous witch hunt end?


When Walt hires a qualified person to manage this team to it's fullest potential?:thumbup:

redssince75
08-04-2010, 02:56 PM
i would disagree that Cairo had a better chance than Janish and I to have to question why was Votto okay to PH and play in the field in the 9th if he wasn't able to start. Again, more signs our manager is clueless and Votto was misused last night.

I seem to remember a particular World Series when Kirk Gibson wasn't fit to play......but he pinch hit.......and it worked out pretty well.

markymark69
08-04-2010, 03:00 PM
When will the ridiculous witch hunt end?

Dale,

Don't even go there. You can't win an argument with the Dusty haters. The Reds could 162-0 and we'd still get some of the same stupid threads.

brm7675
08-04-2010, 03:36 PM
Dale,

Don't even go there. You can't win an argument with the Dusty haters. The Reds could 162-0 and we'd still get some of the same stupid threads.

so it's stupid that Dusty wasted Votto last night in a PH role, put someone at SS who is not a middle infielder and showed he had no confidence in the player he put in the No. 2 slot to produce?

sivman17
08-04-2010, 03:44 PM
60% of the time, Reds fans will complain every time

kfm
08-04-2010, 04:01 PM
60% of the time, Reds fans will complain every time

I hear you man. I don't see why these guys cant just start a single thread called "I hate Dusty Baker and will never give him credit for anything and attack him for the most foolish reasons I can think of and every once in a while throw in a legitimate criticism." Then, they could just add to that thread everyday and stop filling up the board with countless threads that focus on the same exact thing. The move to me seemed pretty obvious, he preferred to either have Votto batting with a runner on second or Cairo batting with two on than to have Janish batting in that situation. The argument that since he pinch hit for a guy in the most critical situation in the game that he has no confidence in him is pretty foolish. If TLR had done this to the Reds people would be talking about how TLR manipulated the reds into putting the go ahead runner on base. If there is a problem with the Roster that is on Walt, but as the roster is currently constructed, it is pretty clear who the backup shorstop is and that is Cairo.

markymark69
08-04-2010, 04:12 PM
I hear you man. I don't see why these guys cant just start a single thread called "I hate Dusty Baker and will never give him credit for anything and attack him for the most foolish reasons I can think of and every once in a while throw in a legitimate criticism." Then, they could just add to that thread everyday and stop filling up the board with countless threads that focus on the same exact thing. The move to me seemed pretty obvious, he preferred to either have Votto batting with a runner on second or Cairo batting with two on than to have Janish batting in that situation. The argument that since he pinch hit for a guy in the most critical situation in the game that he has no confidence in him is pretty foolish. If TLR had done this to the Reds people would be talking about how TLR manipulated the reds into putting the go ahead runner on base. If there is a problem with the Roster that is on Walt, but as the roster is currently constructed, it is pretty clear who the backup shorstop is and that is Cairo.

You better stop kfm, you're making too much sense.

Lockdwn11
08-04-2010, 04:39 PM
When will the ridiculous witch hunt end?

When BRM gets ban for breaking Rule 5 of this board. I'm sure it's coming.

defender
08-04-2010, 05:08 PM
I am just happy that Votto was available to be wasted. The best I was hoping for, was back by the cardinal series.

BurgervilleBuck
08-04-2010, 08:15 PM
When Walt hires a qualified person to manage this team to it's fullest potential?:thumbup:
He did: Dusty Baker.


60% of the time, Reds fans will complain every time
Too true. I was knee high to a fungo at the time but I seem to recall folks complaining about Sparky Anderson. He didn't get the moniker "Captain Hook" because he liked to sail in his off-time.

code
08-05-2010, 09:18 AM
Did anyone else notice that Leake was only doing bad when that damn lime green pirate bird was in the diamond seats?

I blame the bird. Not Leake.

Griffey012
08-05-2010, 09:24 AM
Did anyone else notice that Leake was only doing bad when that damn lime green pirate bird was in the diamond seats?

I blame the bird. Not Leake.

Somebody was mentioning that in the game thread. I wasn't able to see the telecast though.

brm7675
08-05-2010, 10:53 AM
Did anyone else notice that Leake was only doing bad when that damn lime green pirate bird was in the diamond seats?

I blame the bird. Not Leake.

I think the missed grounder/double play chance Rolen booted adn the beaning of the pirates player effected leake much more the bird...

Mr Larkin
08-05-2010, 11:12 AM
As I sat and watched last nights game I at first felt very sorry for Leake, he got hosed on Rolens horrible play at 3rd in the second which went from being what should have been a double play to runners on 2nd and 3rd, which then lead to 2 runs on a bloop single. Then he plunked the Pirate and that I believe really shook him up a bit and before he knew it the Pirates had posted 6. But then I shook my head in disbelief when I saw our "manager" do one of the dumbest things I ever saw. He has Votto pinch hit for Janish. This proves A) Janish should have never been hitting second B) Dusty has no real baseball sense because everyone watching KNEW they would intentionally walk Votto C) this ment Cairo would now be playing SS. All 3 things show how inept our manager is and how Walt needs to make a change NOW to try and save this season. I am this close to wanting this team to fail down the stretch just so Walt will make a change and get a manager in here that knows how to manager good talent, because right now, our manager is costing us games.:thumbdown

I would say that you are far more a Dusty hater than a Reds fan. Why even follow the team if you are only going to be critical about every decision a manager makes? He's the manager - that's what he is paid to do. We are fans, we watch him do what he does. We may not like it, but to think that we could do any better is pure silliness.

When you root for a team, you root for the whole team to do well.

Replacing a first place manager is totally out of the question. At the end of the season Dusty will get consideration for Manager of the Year in the NL, no question. Taking a team that most had overlooked and win the central, wildcard or be in contention for an entire season will garner some consideration at the very least.

Grow a brain.

brm7675
08-05-2010, 11:30 AM
I would say that you are far more a Dusty hater than a Reds fan. Why even follow the team if you are only going to be critical about every decision a manager makes? He's the manager - that's what he is paid to do. We are fans, we watch him do what he does. We may not like it, but to think that we could do any better is pure silliness.

When you root for a team, you root for the whole team to do well.

Replacing a first place manager is totally out of the question. At the end of the season Dusty will get consideration for Manager of the Year in the NL, no question. Taking a team that most had overlooked and win the central, wildcard or be in contention for an entire season will garner some consideration at the very least.

Grow a brain.

Sorry but I would respectfully disagree. As a fan of the team I want to see them win and given the talent they have, to be only 13 games over .500 and only with a .5 game division lead is unacceptable. If you lose because you had a bad night, or the other team was better is fine and acceptable. But to lose because your so called manager doesn't have the ability to in game manage on the Major league level is unacceptable. When he continually plays the wrong players, makes up horrible batting orders, makes useless and pointless double switches or in the case misuses the teams best hitter in a close game, you have to call him on it. I can only hope that Walt will do what is right, plus what he wants, which is to bring in 'his guy' to manage this team since he didn't hire Dusty and we can get some quality leadership where it counts. Walt did a great job in getting Price the pitching coach, up next is a new manager and a new hitting coach.

BurgervilleBuck
08-05-2010, 06:35 PM
Sorry but I would respectfully disagree. As a fan of the team I want to see them win and given the talent they have, to be only 13 games over .500 and only with a .5 game division lead is unacceptable.
Than what is acceptable? The Cards are only 12 games over .500, and though our winning percentage is lower (by not much) than other division leaders or teams in the chase, and the Reds are in first place. They just beat the NLEast leader in a series. What does it take for you and the rest of the Dusty haters to just enjoy what we've got right now?


I can only hope that Walt will do what is right, plus what he wants, which is to bring in 'his guy' to manage this team since he didn't hire Dusty and we can get some quality leadership where it counts. Walt did a great job in getting Price the pitching coach, up next is a new manager and a new hitting coach.
You're willing to take what has taken years to build, to get rid of a manager that has the players' trust while this team playing the best baseball in years and ruin it?

I'm glad Walt Jocketty is the GM and you are not.

zacharync
08-05-2010, 06:39 PM
I'm glad Walt Jocketty is the GM and you are not.

I second this.

RadfordVA
08-05-2010, 07:09 PM
How do people come across the notion that this team is underachieving? I couldnt be happier with how far this team has progressed this year. To say you think that with their talent they should do better is insane to me. So you think this team should be winning at the same percentage of a team like the yankees? If so you have lost the ability to see things from a baseball standpoint and only see them as a reds fan. I disagree with some of the moves dusty makes of course but im a results guy and there is no way you can argue with the reds results this year.

Trace's Daddy
08-05-2010, 07:12 PM
How do people come across the notion that this team is underachieving? I couldnt be happier with how far this team has progressed this year. To say you think that with their talent they should do better is insane to me. So you think this team should be winning at the same percentage of a team like the yankees? If so you have lost the ability to see things from a baseball standpoint and only see them as a reds fan. I disagree with some of the moves dusty makes of course but im a results guy and there is no way you can argue with the reds results this year.

I'm glad i'm not the only Reds fan in the metropolis that is Radford, Virginia

RadfordVA
08-05-2010, 07:57 PM
I'm glad i'm not the only Reds fan in the metropolis that is Radford, Virginia

Haha yeah I thought the few in my household were the only ones. Seems to be mostly yankees and braves fans in this area.

bornready
08-05-2010, 08:42 PM
When he continually plays the wrong players, makes up horrible batting orders, makes useless and pointless double switches or in the case misuses the teams best hitter in a close game, you have to call him on it. you do? what happens when you don't?

Griffey012
08-05-2010, 08:51 PM
How do people come across the notion that this team is underachieving? I couldnt be happier with how far this team has progressed this year. To say you think that with their talent they should do better is insane to me. So you think this team should be winning at the same percentage of a team like the yankees? If so you have lost the ability to see things from a baseball standpoint and only see them as a reds fan. I disagree with some of the moves dusty makes of course but im a results guy and there is no way you can argue with the reds results this year.

People continually think our player's are way better than they really are.

Brisco
08-06-2010, 12:30 AM
How do people come across the notion that this team is underachieving? I couldnt be happier with how far this team has progressed this year. To say you think that with their talent they should do better is insane to me. So you think this team should be winning at the same percentage of a team like the yankees? If so you have lost the ability to see things from a baseball standpoint and only see them as a reds fan. I disagree with some of the moves dusty makes of course but im a results guy and there is no way you can argue with the reds results this year.

Go back and read the prediction and preseason threads... if you could have told the board what our record and place in the standings would be even the most optomistic posters back then would not have been disappointed. Back then I do not think anyone at all would have claimed that the Reds' "talent" justified a far better record than 13 over at 108 games played.

The argument that a team is underachieving is commonly used by those who want to criticize the manager... why? Because it is based on an assumption that noone can disprove... how can one prove a team is not more talented than their record? If the team is losing or doing poorly, the hater blames the manager... if they are winning or playing well, the hater claims it is the talent despite the manager. We all heard these arguments for years with Sparky, who was probably the most criticized manager of all time for the Reds... I mean, how can a guy who has a roster of hall of famers not win more than two world series, right? :rolleyes:

BRM was far more honest than most haters, though, in confessing a desire for the team to play poorly in order to get the manager fired. BRM, you are one of the many baseball fans who are really more a fan of being right. I am not saying you dislike the Reds or should be a Cubs fan or anything like that... BUT if you were truly honest with yourself, you would admit that you would rather have the Reds fire Dusty, but win the series next year than for the Reds to win the series for the next five years under Dusty. In the former situation, the Reds still get one series win, but more importantly, you get to be right.

C'mon folks, you all know two or three folks like this in the real world... they come with the territory of being a sports fan. That's why fantasy sports are so popular... they give a lot of sports fans the opportunity to be "right".

I have been one of those guys ands sometimes still am... but as the grey hairs continue to show up on my head, I have learned one valuable lesson:

It's a lot more fun when you can just sit back and enjoy the show and not feel like its your job to critique/improve it.

Quatitos
08-06-2010, 09:41 AM
I have been one of those guys ands sometimes still am... but as the grey hairs continue to show up on my head, I have learned one valuable lesson:

It's a lot more fun when you can just sit back and enjoy the show and not feel like its your job to critique/improve it.

Very nice post, glad I actually bothered to read more of this thread.

People seem to focus way too much on the negative, and are really missing out on the fun they could be having if they just let themselves this season. We are in first place after 2/3 of the season with a legitimate chance at the playoffs. People should be enjoying themselves and many are, but some just can't seem to be happy with winning and have to try and draw up every negative point and argument they can.

There is a saying, "Don't miss the forest for the trees." Don't miss the fun of actually having something good to watch in August just because you may disagree with some small decision here or there, no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. Accept people will make mistakes and don't blow them out of proportion.

markymark69
08-06-2010, 10:03 AM
Go back and read the prediction and preseason threads... if you could have told the board what our record and place in the standings would be even the most optomistic posters back then would not have been disappointed. Back then I do not think anyone at all would have claimed that the Reds' "talent" justified a far better record than 13 over at 108 games played.

The argument that a team is underachieving is commonly used by those who want to criticize the manager... why? Because it is based on an assumption that noone can disprove... how can one prove a team is not more talented than their record? If the team is losing or doing poorly, the hater blames the manager... if they are winning or playing well, the hater claims it is the talent despite the manager. We all heard these arguments for years with Sparky, who was probably the most criticized manager of all time for the Reds... I mean, how can a guy who has a roster of hall of famers not win more than two world series, right? :rolleyes:

BRM was far more honest than most haters, though, in confessing a desire for the team to play poorly in order to get the manager fired. BRM, you are one of the many baseball fans who are really more a fan of being right. I am not saying you dislike the Reds or should be a Cubs fan or anything like that... BUT if you were truly honest with yourself, you would admit that you would rather have the Reds fire Dusty, but win the series next year than for the Reds to win the series for the next five years under Dusty. In the former situation, the Reds still get one series win, but more importantly, you get to be right.

C'mon folks, you all know two or three folks like this in the real world... they come with the territory of being a sports fan. That's why fantasy sports are so popular... they give a lot of sports fans the opportunity to be "right".

I have been one of those guys ands sometimes still am... but as the grey hairs continue to show up on my head, I have learned one valuable lesson:

It's a lot more fun when you can just sit back and enjoy the show and not feel like its your job to critique/improve it.

Been saying stuff very much like this for a long time.

brm7675
08-06-2010, 11:14 AM
Than what is acceptable? The Cards are only 12 games over .500, and though our winning percentage is lower (by not much) than other division leaders or teams in the chase, and the Reds are in first place. They just beat the NLEast leader in a series. What does it take for you and the rest of the Dusty haters to just enjoy what we've got right now?


You're willing to take what has taken years to build, to get rid of a manager that has the players' trust while this team playing the best baseball in years and ruin it?

I'm glad Walt Jocketty is the GM and you are not.

Given the talent level on this team, this team should eaisly have a record similar to the Rays or Yankees and such. We are better then our record reflects. We have mounds more overall talent then the Cards and yet can not make any distance between them and us. I will enjoy this team when it is managed properly.

brm7675
08-06-2010, 11:39 AM
BRM was far more honest than most haters, though, in confessing a desire for the team to play poorly in order to get the manager fired. BRM, you are one of the many baseball fans who are really more a fan of being right. I am not saying you dislike the Reds or should be a Cubs fan or anything like that... BUT if you were truly honest with yourself, you would admit that you would rather have the Reds fire Dusty, but win the series next year than for the Reds to win the series for the next five years under Dusty. In the former situation, the Reds still get one series win, but more importantly, you get to be right.
It's a lot more fun when you can just sit back and enjoy the show and not feel like its your job to critique/improve it.

Given the continual mistakes Dusty makes as our manager (This issue with misusing Votto just another example) this team will never win the WS. He couldn't do it when he had the greatest player in MLB history and a better team then the Angles, couldn't do it with a very talented Cubs team and can't do it here. So bring in someone who can and lets really enjoy this talented team.

Quatitos
08-06-2010, 01:18 PM
Given the continual mistakes Dusty makes as our manager (This issue with misusing Votto just another example) this team will never win the WS. He couldn't do it when he had the greatest player in MLB history and a better team then the Angles, couldn't do it with a very talented Cubs team and can't do it here. So bring in someone who can and lets really enjoy this talented team.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

brm7675
08-06-2010, 01:38 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

You might be right, but history and events of this season say otherwise...:)

BurgervilleBuck
08-06-2010, 02:02 PM
I think the missed grounder/double play chance Rolen booted adn the beaning of the pirates player effected leake much more the bird...

Yeah. Fire Dusty!

:rolleyes:

Quatitos
08-06-2010, 02:14 PM
You might be right, but history and events of this season say otherwise...:)
Your interpretation of them does, in your mind. Once someone such as yourself forms their opinion, it is very hard to change their mind and they will mold all the "facts" to support their point. If you could only get it into your head that Dusty is NOT a terrible manager and look at things objectively you would enjoy this season a whole lot more.




Given the continual mistakes Dusty makes as our manager (This issue with misusing Votto just another example) this team will never win the WS. He couldn't do it when he had the greatest player in MLB history and a better team then the Angles, couldn't do it with a very talented Cubs team and can't do it here. So bring in someone who can and lets really enjoy this talented team.

I take it you ignore the fact the year after he took the giants to the world series the next manager, Felipe Alou, took the giants (with the same greatest player in MLB history) to a 100 win season then proceded to exit in the first round of the playoffs winning only 1 game.

And then in Chicago you have Lou Pinella who has actually managed to win a world series with another team, and he also fails to take a talented(although sometimes underperforming) Cubs team to a world series(he failed to even win a single playoff game in two visits).

So when compared to other managers who coached the teams after him, Dusty performed better than his replacemetns. So I think history has shown that Dusty was atleast not worse than other managers who coached the same team. As for events this season, I will admit I am too lazy to go look up your previous arguments for his ineptitude, but in general I found the majority of them very weak arguments.

I wonder who you would actually want to replace Dusty with, or if you just assume anyone could do a better job, because history seems to show that this is not true.

By the way I do not believe that Dusty is always right, and I don't think he's the best manager ever. I do believe though that he is at the worst a decent manager who will generally not hinder a team. Although some of his decision making processes are outdated, they are not that bad to severely effect the outcome of most games and do in fact end up working out enough of the time for it to not be worried about.

Brisco
08-06-2010, 02:20 PM
Given the continual mistakes Dusty makes as our manager (This issue with misusing Votto just another example) this team will never win the WS. He couldn't do it when he had the greatest player in MLB history and a better team then the Angles, couldn't do it with a very talented Cubs team and can't do it here. So bring in someone who can and lets really enjoy this talented team.

You have dug youself a hole, poor guy.

This is a magical season for a team that has not had a playoff run in over a decade and you are destined to be frustrated and angry whether they choke, do well but just miss the ring, or lightning strikes and they end up champions.

Maybe next year the GM and manager will do exactly what you want on every decision and they all turn out to be right... I honestly hope that happens, then you can join the rest of us and just kick back, watch some baseball, root for some winning Reds, and be just loving life.

Again, this is a magical season... I am sorry you are going to miss it.

brm7675
08-06-2010, 03:34 PM
Your interpretation of them does, in your mind. Once someone such as yourself forms their opinion, it is very hard to change their mind and they will mold all the "facts" to support their point. If you could only get it into your head that Dusty is NOT a terrible manager and look at things objectively you would enjoy this season a whole lot more.





I take it you ignore the fact the year after he took the giants to the world series the next manager, Felipe Alou, took the giants (with the same greatest player in MLB history) to a 100 win season then proceded to exit in the first round of the playoffs winning only 1 game.

And then in Chicago you have Lou Pinella who has actually managed to win a world series with another team, and he also fails to take a talented(although sometimes underperforming) Cubs team to a world series(he failed to even win a single playoff game in two visits).

So when compared to other managers who coached the teams after him, Dusty performed better than his replacemetns. So I think history has shown that Dusty was atleast not worse than other managers who coached the same team. As for events this season, I will admit I am too lazy to go look up your previous arguments for his ineptitude, but in general I found the majority of them very weak arguments.

I wonder who you would actually want to replace Dusty with, or if you just assume anyone could do a better job, because history seems to show that this is not true.

By the way I do not believe that Dusty is always right, and I don't think he's the best manager ever. I do believe though that he is at the worst a decent manager who will generally not hinder a team. Although some of his decision making processes are outdated, they are not that bad to severely effect the outcome of most games and do in fact end up working out enough of the time for it to not be worried about.

I would take Bobby V
I would take Joe T
I would take Freddi G the former Marlins manager

brm7675
08-06-2010, 03:35 PM
You have dug youself a hole, poor guy.

This is a magical season for a team that has not had a playoff run in over a decade and you are destined to be frustrated and angry whether they choke, do well but just miss the ring, or lightning strikes and they end up champions.

Maybe next year the GM and manager will do exactly what you want on every decision and they all turn out to be right... I honestly hope that happens, then you can join the rest of us and just kick back, watch some baseball, root for some winning Reds, and be just loving life.

Again, this is a magical season... I am sorry you are going to miss it.

No it would be magical if this wasn't hampered by horrible coaching. Put someone in place who knows the game today and it's a magical season, right now we are just barley in the playoffs and not showing any improvment over the season. Remove the fast start and this team has played .500 ball pretty much, this team should continue to improve and it's not.

Quatitos
08-06-2010, 04:03 PM
I would take Bobby V
I would take Joe T
I would take Freddi G the former Marlins manager

Bobby V has not really done much aside from those 2 years he took the mets to the post season. He's only been to the playoffs twice, and only had 2 years where his team won more than 90 games. Nothing that impressive about his managing career, especially if you refuse to give Dusty credit for his trip to the world series.

Joe Torre had a great run with the yankeesin the late 90's and early 00's but you can argue anyone could win with some of those yankee teams and how much money is pumped into them. Aside from that Torre is still atleast an averge to above average manager during his stints with the Mets, Braves, Cardinals, and Dodgers so I can't argue much agains this choice.

Fredi Gonzalez really hasn't accomplished much as a manager so this pick is curious. He has a career winning percentage of .497 so he's not bad, and the marlins don't spend that much on payroll so you can give him some credit for winning 2 of his 3 full seasons there with a bottom third payroll.

I find it funny you can only name 3 managers you would want over Baker, and 2 of them really are not an upgrade in any sense aside from probably being cheaper. And the only good above average manager you name is pretty much a guaranteed hall of famer. Well I mean if the only real improvement you can name over dusty is a hall of fame manager, that means Dusty must not be that bad then.

I also enjoy how you chose not to respond to my real argument against your assertion that history and this seasons events are on your side. I guess you must be admitting you were wrong about that so I will give you credit for gracefully accepting your defeat and subtly admitting there are only 3 other managers you would want over Dusty ;).

Quatitos
08-06-2010, 04:12 PM
No it would be magical if this wasn't hampered by horrible coaching. Put someone in place who knows the game today and it's a magical season, right now we are just barley in the playoffs and not showing any improvment over the season. Remove the fast start and this team has played .500 ball pretty much, this team should continue to improve and it's not.

1 over .500 in April
7 over .500 in May
1 over .500 in June
3 over .500 in July and August (since august has only been 4 games)

So there was definately a spike in May, but the Reds have not had a losing record for any month so far, and since the all star break have not lost a series yet. This to me feels like an improvement. They hit a rough patch right before the all star break and have shown good resiliency in how they have played since it. I consider that improvement, I would like my team to be able to respond well to adversity and thats what they have done and are doing. I guess you are not able to give Dusty any credit for not letting his team get down after that sweep in Philly.

brm7675
08-06-2010, 04:32 PM
[QUOTE=Quatitos;2192551]Bobby V has not really done much aside from those 2 years he took the mets to the post season. He's only been to the playoffs twice, and only had 2 years where his team won more than 90 games. Nothing that impressive about his managing career, especially if you refuse to give Dusty credit for his trip to the world series.

Joe Torre had a great run with the yankeesin the late 90's and early 00's but you can argue anyone could win with some of those yankee teams and how much money is pumped into them. Aside from that Torre is still atleast an averge to above average manager during his stints with the Mets, Braves, Cardinals, and Dodgers so I can't argue much agains this choice.

Fredi Gonzalez really hasn't accomplished much as a manager so this pick is curious. He has a career winning percentage of .497 so he's not bad, and the marlins don't spend that much on payroll so you can give him some credit for winning 2 of his 3 full seasons there with a bottom third payroll.

I find it funny you can only name 3 managers you would want over Baker, and 2 of them really are not an upgrade in any sense aside from probably being cheaper. And the only good above average manager you name is pretty much a guaranteed hall of famer. Well I mean if the only real improvement you can name over dusty is a hall of fame manager, that means Dusty must not be that bad then.

I also enjoy how you chose not to respond to my real argument against your assertion that history and this seasons events are on your side. I guess you must be admitting you were wrong about that so I will give you credit for gracefully accepting your defeat and subtly admitting there are only 3 other managers you would want over Dusty ;).[/QUOT

Those were just three off the top of my head. I had a fourth, but the o's just signed him to manage them. I would like to think we could consider Joe G. whose contract is up with the Yankees at the end of the season, but see him either back there or in Chitown next season. I am not sure his view on managing, but I would like to consider Dave Duncan also, plus i would be open to giving Willie R. another shot.

brm7675
08-06-2010, 04:33 PM
1 over .500 in April
7 over .500 in May
1 over .500 in June
3 over .500 in July and August (since august has only been 4 games)

So there was definately a spike in May, but the Reds have not had a losing record for any month so far, and since the all star break have not lost a series yet. This to me feels like an improvement. They hit a rough patch right before the all star break and have shown good resiliency in how they have played since it. I consider that improvement, I would like my team to be able to respond well to adversity and thats what they have done and are doing. I guess you are not able to give Dusty any credit for not letting his team get down after that sweep in Philly.

Dusty is directly to blame for not winning at least 1 of those games, they should have never been swept by them or Atlanta in Atlanta.

Lockdwn11
08-06-2010, 04:34 PM
Given the talent level on this team, this team should eaisly have a record similar to the Rays or Yankees and such. We are better then our record reflects. We have mounds more overall talent then the Cards and yet can not make any distance between them and us. I will enjoy this team when it is managed properly.

So you are saying that this Reds team has as much talent on it as the Yankees and Rays?

Quatitos
08-06-2010, 04:40 PM
Dusty is directly to blame for not winning at least 1 of those games, they should have never been swept by them or Atlanta in Atlanta.
Which game is that? Use direct evidence instead of vague accusations.

Quatitos
08-06-2010, 04:59 PM
Those were just three off the top of my head. I had a fourth, but the o's just signed him to manage them. I would like to think we could consider Joe G. whose contract is up with the Yankees at the end of the season, but see him either back there or in Chitown next season. I am not sure his view on managing, but I would like to consider Dave Duncan also, plus i would be open to giving Willie R. another shot.


I don't know if you can really give joe girardi all that much credit for his success with that monster of a salary and he did break the yankee's streak of playoff appearances (and of course then proceded to win the WS the next year).

I have to say I don't hold much against Willie Randolph, but I did not pay much attention to him the year he was fired with how hilariously bad the Mets played the last 2 season before this one. It is telling that he has not been offered a job since getting fired with how well he did with the Mets his first couple seasons so I would say that is telling of how a lot of clubs view him.

I think Dave Duncan should stay with what he does best in coaching pitching. He has no experience at managing a ball club, only pitchers. I am sure Duncan has been offered a job by someone but he probably is content with his position being regarded as one of the best pitching coaches in the game.

brm7675
08-06-2010, 05:40 PM
Which game is that? Use direct evidence instead of vague accusations.

Okay, it was the Friday night game. We were up by what 7-1. you had a tired Mike Leake on the mound going to the 9th. Instead of turning it over to the bullpen THEN he left him in and before you knew it the score was 7-5 before the Reds relized what happen. Well then in comes Co-Co and wham it's 7-7 and we lose in extra. Why did he leave a tired Leake in....

'I wanted the kid to get his first complete game"

Are you kidding me? So personal accomplishments are more important then the team? Yep that's the kind of manager I don't want.

brm7675
08-06-2010, 05:41 PM
So you are saying that this Reds team has as much talent on it as the Yankees and Rays?

I would say we are in their league, so we should be looking at about 20 games over .500 not 14. Think how different the divison race would be just with that few games difference?

brm7675
08-06-2010, 05:42 PM
I don't know if you can really give joe girardi all that much credit for his success with that monster of a salary and he did break the yankee's streak of playoff appearances (and of course then proceded to win the WS the next year).

I have to say I don't hold much against Willie Randolph, but I did not pay much attention to him the year he was fired with how hilariously bad the Mets played the last 2 season before this one. It is telling that he has not been offered a job since getting fired with how well he did with the Mets his first couple seasons so I would say that is telling of how a lot of clubs view him.

I think Dave Duncan should stay with what he does best in coaching pitching. He has no experience at managing a ball club, only pitchers. I am sure Duncan has been offered a job by someone but he probably is content with his position being regarded as one of the best pitching coaches in the game.

also look at what Joe did with the Marlins, the team of no payroll.

Quatitos
08-06-2010, 06:07 PM
also look at what Joe did with the Marlins, the team of no payroll.

6 games under .500? Not that impressive, not bad, but not impressive.

brm7675
08-06-2010, 06:25 PM
6 games under .500? Not that impressive, not bad, but not impressive.

omg, who did he have on that team? The payroll was like what 40 million?

Quatitos
08-06-2010, 06:29 PM
Okay, it was the Friday night game. We were up by what 7-1. you had a tired Mike Leake on the mound going to the 9th. Instead of turning it over to the bullpen THEN he left him in and before you knew it the score was 7-5 before the Reds relized what happen. Well then in comes Co-Co and wham it's 7-7 and we lose in extra. Why did he leave a tired Leake in....

'I wanted the kid to get his first complete game"

Are you kidding me? So personal accomplishments are more important then the team? Yep that's the kind of manager I don't want.

If I recall correctly, at the beginning of the 9th, Leake had only like 85 pitches so far in the game, so if there was a time for him to go for a complete game this was it. Leake gives up a double, then gets a flyout and the runner advances to third, so he's got one down and a guy on third with a 6 run lead. There is not really a reason to panic in this situation, then he gives up a hit to howard and the run scores. Now he only has a 5 run lead but he's got a relatively slow runner on first and Leake gets a lot of double plays, it makes sense to leave him in. Then Werth gets a single off him so you have men on first and second and Greg Dobbs comes to the plate. Greg Dobbs up to this point had a .547 OPS and a .189 BA with 2 HR and 7 RBI on the season so far. If there is a guy Leake can get out with a high chance of a double play this is it. The Greg freaking Dobbs gets a HR and the score is now 7-5 and Leake is out of there and CoCo is in the game. Leake leaves with 101 pitches, not that many.

You can argue that CoCo isn't as good and that we should use a different person to close. Well that was also the game where Arthur Rhodes gave up the 2 run home run to Howard, ending his scoreless streak. So even the best reliever we had at the time got his butt kicked. You try and play the best percentages as a manager, and sometimes you just get the short end of the stick.

I honestly don't see where the big error in managing is here. I said it at the time and I stand by it. With hindsight you can see that maybe another pitcher could have taken the 9th better, but you also have to remember this is before our bullpen had started to pick it up as a whole and was rather shaky at the time. Now you can say its a mistake, but pretty much 95% of the time Leake gets through that inning with the complete game win.

Dale4Saul2Red0
08-06-2010, 06:35 PM
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/rocks/celebrity-pictures-hilton-attention-*****.jpg

Quatitos
08-06-2010, 06:41 PM
omg, who did he have on that team? The payroll was like what 40 million?
He had Miguel Cabrera(.998), Josh Willingham(.852), Hanley Ramirez(.833), Dan Uggla(.818) with their OPS in parenthesis and a young Josh Johnson, Anibal Sanchez, Ricky Nolasco, and Dontrelle Willis before his control went.

A young team but by no means devoid of talent.

brm7675
08-06-2010, 06:42 PM
If I recall correctly, at the beginning of the 9th, Leake had only like 85 pitches so far in the game, so if there was a time for him to go for a complete game this was it. Leake gives up a double, then gets a flyout and the runner advances to third, so he's got one down and a guy on third with a 6 run lead. There is not really a reason to panic in this situation, then he gives up a hit to howard and the run scores. Now he only has a 5 run lead but he's got a relatively slow runner on first and Leake gets a lot of double plays, it makes sense to leave him in. Then Werth gets a single off him so you have men on first and second and Greg Dobbs comes to the plate. Greg Dobbs up to this point had a .547 OPS and a .189 BA with 2 HR and 7 RBI on the season so far. If there is a guy Leake can get out with a high chance of a double play this is it. The Greg freaking Dobbs gets a HR and the score is now 7-5 and Leake is out of there and CoCo is in the game. Leake leaves with 101 pitches, not that many.

You can argue that CoCo isn't as good and that we should use a different person to close. Well that was also the game where Arthur Rhodes gave up the 2 run home run to Howard, ending his scoreless streak. So even the best reliever we had at the time got his butt kicked. You try and play the best percentages as a manager, and sometimes you just get the short end of the stick.

I honestly don't see where the big error in managing is here. I said it at the time and I stand by it. With hindsight you can see that maybe another pitcher could have taken the 9th better, but you also have to remember this is before our bullpen had started to pick it up as a whole and was rather shaky at the time. Now you can say its a mistake, but pretty much 95% of the time Leake gets through that inning with the complete game win.

Not only was he at 85 pitches, but he had also gotten a few hits that night, ran the bases and it was a very warm muggy night. He is a rookie with NO major league experience, you have a 6 run lead on the road against the defending NL champs. You have already lost game 1, you are facing Halliday and Hammels in games 3 and 4, YOU NEED THIS WIN. You thank Leake for a wonderful performance and you go to the bullpen. Period end of discussion. this was so clear it was laughable. The objective is to win the game, not get your "rookie" his first complete game.

Lockdwn11
08-06-2010, 06:54 PM
I would say we are in their league, so we should be looking at about 20 games over .500 not 14. Think how different the divison race would be just with that few games difference?

Then you are more lost then I thought.Two Reds would start for the Rays and maybe only one would start for the Yanks. I would say the Reds are what their record says they are and that is a pretty good team that is only going to get better.

Quatitos
08-06-2010, 07:17 PM
Not only was he at 85 pitches, but he had also gotten a few hits that night, ran the bases and it was a very warm muggy night. He is a rookie with NO major league experience, you have a 6 run lead on the road against the defending NL champs. You have already lost game 1, you are facing Halliday and Hammels in games 3 and 4, YOU NEED THIS WIN. You thank Leake for a wonderful performance and you go to the bullpen. Period end of discussion. this was so clear it was laughable. The objective is to win the game, not get your "rookie" his first complete game.

Yes, you lost game 1 and used 5 relievers, and you know after this game you are facing Halliday and Hammels, and the next day you have someone with 1 start in the major leagues going against Halliday, so you want your bullpen fresh for tommorow. So you have your starter at 85 pitches going into the 9th with a good lead, you let him stay in to preserve your bullpen after a long night before and probably a tough night the next two nights.

Face it, that game was a pretty big bit of luck for the Phillies and a lot of bad luck for the Reds. You are trying to pick and choose facts to make it look like Dusty's fault when this was just an inability to perform for Leake, CoCo, and Rhodes.

Also, I went back to check out the game thread for then, and just about every single poster was pushing for Leake to finish it out, and of course luckily you did not post in it so you couldn't be caught thinking the same thing so you are free to say you were against it the whole time, which is highly doubtful.

markymark69
08-06-2010, 09:02 PM
The whole argument that Dusty gets the blame for that one loss in Philadelphia because he left Leake in too long is pure unadulterated speculation.

There isn't a person on this board that can say with 100 percent certainty that the same thing would not have happened had Dusty brought in say Nick Masset or Micah Owings or name your pitcher to start that inning.

That's the great thing about 20-20 hindsight, because then a person could say that he should have left Leake in.

There are moves that Dusty makes that are head-scratchers no doubt, but that doesn't mean he's a bad manager. There are times when he pushes the right buttons, but doesn't mean he's a hall of famer. He is imperfect like all the rest of us. I like him and don't apologize for doing so.

There are some on here that would not give him any credit if the Reds went 162-0, they would still find something too complain about.