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View Full Version : Mystery Team Claims Dunn off Waivers?



arkimadee
08-05-2010, 04:18 PM
According to foxsports.. Who could it be?
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Washington-Nationals-slugger-Adam-Dunn-claimed-on-waivers-080510

ILoveWilly
08-05-2010, 04:22 PM
Maybe we did and we can offer them Micah Owings. :P

texasdave
08-05-2010, 04:35 PM
Maybe we did and we can offer them Micah Owings. :P

Heck, I would throw in Wilkins Castillo and Dallas Buck too. :)

couch_manager
08-05-2010, 06:00 PM
San Diego? They've got priority to us in the waiver order. Maybe they're looking to replace Will Venable. They've already tried to get better in the outfield by adding Ryan Ludwick.

I sure hope it's not us.

davereds24
08-05-2010, 06:08 PM
San Diego? They've got priority to us in the waiver order. Maybe they're looking to replace Will Venable. They've already tried to get better in the outfield by adding Ryan Ludwick.

I sure hope it's not us.

San Diego is the last team in the NL on the waiver priority. Doubtful Dunn falls to them with the Rockies and Giants in their division.

brm7675
08-05-2010, 06:11 PM
San Diego? They've got priority to us in the waiver order. Maybe they're looking to replace Will Venable. They've already tried to get better in the outfield by adding Ryan Ludwick.

I sure hope it's not us.


Why?

Fullboat
08-05-2010, 06:20 PM
Isn't the order worst to first record wise?And I think(could be wrong probably am :D) If its a NL player AL picks first and vice versa.

GIDP
08-05-2010, 06:24 PM
I would like him in LF if Dusty would use him correctly.

Ultimately he would bat him 6th or something completely wasting in OBP and then he would play Gomes and Dunn in the same outfield totally ruining any type of production you would get by making that move.

couch_manager
08-05-2010, 06:25 PM
San Diego is the last team in the NL on the waiver priority. Doubtful Dunn falls to them with the Rockies and Giants in their division.

Yeah, yer right. :redface: I was reading the rules wrong. Waiver priority only for the first month of the season is based on last year's record. After that, it's the current season's record.


Why?

Why what? Why do I not want Dunn? Because he strikes out too much, doesn't hit with runners in scoring position, plays a terrible outfield, etc. Every complaint you've ever heard about Adam Dunn I agree with.

Vottomatic
08-05-2010, 06:35 PM
We don't need no big donkey. We need a stallion! :D

scott91575
08-05-2010, 06:39 PM
Isn't the order worst to first record wise?And I think(could be wrong probably am :D) If its a NL player AL picks first and vice versa.

For NL players the NL has first shot. For AL players, AL teams have the first shot.

and yes, it goes by record.

brm7675
08-05-2010, 06:51 PM
We don't need no big donkey. We need a stallion! :D


Your joking right...:confused:

Fullboat
08-05-2010, 06:52 PM
For NL players the NL has first shot. For AL players, AL teams have the first shot.

and yes, it goes by record.

Thanks scott91575,

Now is it this years record or last years?over on the Cards board they
were talking about being able to block any Reds Waiver wire pick.

Lockdwn11
08-05-2010, 08:03 PM
The Reds are not going to bring Adam Dunn back here. They did get rid of him because of what he did between the line it was in the clubhouse that Dunn fell out of favor with this team.

OldRed1966
08-05-2010, 08:14 PM
The Reds are not going to bring Adam Dunn back here. They did get rid of him because of what he did between the line it was in the clubhouse that Dunn fell out of favor with this team.



Please show me one piece of evidence that Dunn was a problem in the clubhouse. According to his Nationals teammates he is a leader.


"It would difficult," Stammen said. "The biggest thing, I think, would be in the clubhouse. He's such a resounding presence. He's not rah-rah, but he's a leader. We look up to him. We love having him on the team. Hopefully he'll be here for years to come."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/05/AR2010080500117.html

Rijo's Ghost
08-05-2010, 09:09 PM
Mets, Giants, Rockies or Padres. Even an outside shot of it being a team like the Cubs hoping to get him and then re-sign him for next season.

Reds
08-05-2010, 09:11 PM
Mets, Giants, Rockies or Padres. Even an outside shot of it being a team like the Cubs hoping to get him and then re-sign him for next season.

Agreed. My money would be on the Giants.

davereds24
08-05-2010, 09:52 PM
Mets, Giants, Rockies or Padres. Even an outside shot of it being a team like the Cubs hoping to get him and then re-sign him for next season.

Cubs aren't going to risk having to pay 4mil, they are in paycut mode. They can sign him in the offseason just as easy if he isn't on the team, Dunn will go where the money is.

Rijo's Ghost
08-05-2010, 09:55 PM
Cubs aren't going to risk having to pay 4mil, they are in paycut mode. They can sign him in the offseason just as easy if he isn't on the team, Dunn will go where the money is.

Doing it now wouldn't cost them a draft pick like signing him in the offseason would. If he were to make it clear he was testing the free agent market they could offer him arbitration and gain draft picks from him.

Not saying they will do it, just saying that it's actually a pretty logical move.

Lockdwn11
08-05-2010, 11:22 PM
Please show me one piece of evidence that Dunn was a problem in the clubhouse. According to his Nationals teammates he is a leader.


"It would difficult," Stammen said. "The biggest thing, I think, would be in the clubhouse. He's such a resounding presence. He's not rah-rah, but he's a leader. We look up to him. We love having him on the team. Hopefully he'll be here for years to come."



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/05/AR2010080500117.html



I guess I could put it this way...If Adam Dunn was in the Reds plans he would have never been traded. It is well documented that Adam Dunn wasn't a "Leader" in the Reds young clubhouse. Are the player going to come out and bad mouth a former teammate? The answer is no but we have all hear the whispers.

Fon Duc Tow
08-06-2010, 09:11 AM
Please show me one piece of evidence that Dunn was a problem in the clubhouse. According to his Nationals teammates he is a leader.




http://bedzine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/vanity1.jpg

Rockermann
08-06-2010, 09:29 AM
http://bedzine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/vanity1.jpg

That pretty much sums it up. :)

NeilHamburger
08-06-2010, 09:49 AM
http://bedzine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/vanity1.jpg

Did you break into Dave Miley's house to take that picture?

Vottomatic
08-06-2010, 11:42 AM
http://bedzine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/vanity1.jpg

I think that's Junior's isn't it? Or did he lend it to Big Donkey?

Vottomatic
08-06-2010, 11:42 AM
With Youkalis out, wouldn't surprise me if the surprise team was the Red Sox.

Vottomatic
08-06-2010, 11:48 AM
Cardinals claimed him. They're thinking about benching Pujols and listening to all the Redzone fans who adore Adam Dunn.

KOBasinger
08-06-2010, 11:52 AM
Hopefully an AL team claimed him. Gives Votto a better chance at the crown:D

Revering4Blue
08-06-2010, 03:34 PM
The Giants were not the team awarded the waiver claim for Adam Dunn, according to the San Francisco Chronicle's Henry Schulman.

Schulman believes the Dodgers put in the priority claim. Others have suggested it might be the Phillies. Both were ahead of the Giants in line for a chance at Dunn.

[URL="http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playernews.aspx?sport=MLB"][URL="http:

mrherd05
08-06-2010, 04:34 PM
I guess I could put it this way...If Adam Dunn was in the Reds plans he would have never been traded. It is well documented that Adam Dunn wasn't a "Leader" in the Reds young clubhouse. Are the player going to come out and bad mouth a former teammate? The answer is no but we have all hear the whispers.


Why were the Phillies going after Cliff Lee this year?

zjr1717
08-07-2010, 02:33 AM
http://bedzine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/vanity1.jpg

Half a decade and we're still worrying about "chairgate"

I wonder how many players are here that were actually on the team when this happened, lets count...

And the answer is 1, Aaron Harang.

Sometimes, it's just good to let it go.

Adam Dunn could definitely help this team by giving it another big time bat to help Joey Votto and Scott Rolen, and take pressure off of young Jay Bruce. Will the Reds do it, probably not, and maybe they shouldn't. But using the massage chair incident from 5 years ago probably isn't the best point in illustrating Dunn's usefulness and value to team.

To this point in the season:

Adam Dunn WAR - 3.4
Johnny Gomes WAR - 0.0

The Reds would be replacing a, well, replacement level player, with a guy who is the 29th best position player in MLB in terms of WAR. Now Dunn would have to play LF, so his value would take a hit. But lets not kid ourselves, Adam Dunn would be a massive upgrade over Johnny Gomes.

texasdave
08-07-2010, 10:06 AM
Is that the chair that removed from the locker room? I now see why. Ugly.

OldRed1966
08-07-2010, 12:09 PM
I guess I could put it this way...If Adam Dunn was in the Reds plans he would have never been traded. It is well documented that Adam Dunn wasn't a "Leader" in the Reds young clubhouse. Are the player going to come out and bad mouth a former teammate? The answer is no but we have all hear the whispers.



I rest my case.

Mutaman
08-07-2010, 12:41 PM
I would like him in LF if Dusty would use him correctly.

Ultimately he would bat him 6th or something completely wasting in OBP and then he would play Gomes and Dunn in the same outfield totally ruining any type of production you would get by making that move.

The neverending defense of the Dunn fan: he batted in the wrong place in the lineup.

Knightro28
08-07-2010, 01:10 PM
[QUOTE=

To this point in the season:

Adam Dunn WAR - 3.4
Johnny Gomes WAR - 0.0

[/QUOTE]

You do know that Dunn has been playing FIRST BASE all season, right?

In other words, the Nationals are hiding Dunn's poor defensive skills, while the Reds do not have the luxury of moving Gomes to 1B. So really, comparing Gomes and Dunn (using present WAR) is really like comparing apples and oranges.

scott91575
08-07-2010, 01:55 PM
You do know that Dunn has been playing FIRST BASE all season, right?

In other words, the Nationals are hiding Dunn's poor defensive skills, while the Reds do not have the luxury of moving Gomes to 1B. So really, comparing Gomes and Dunn (using present WAR) is really like comparing apples and oranges.

WAR adjusts for first base (playing first is a larger deduction than LF...0.5 larger deduction). So Gomes actually gets an advantage playing LF, although the addition of moving to LF may be reduced by Dunn's poor play.

in other words, WAR is adjusted so you can compare players at different positions.

Knightro28
08-07-2010, 02:02 PM
WAR adjusts for first base (playing first is a larger deduction than LF...0.5 larger deduction). So Gomes actually gets an advantage playing LF, although the addition of moving to LF may be reduced by Dunn's poor play.

in other words, WAR is adjusted so you can compare players at different positions.

Ok I did not know that. I apologize.

Vottomatic
08-07-2010, 02:05 PM
I rest my case.

A pretty weak case you have going there.

OldRed1966
08-08-2010, 08:38 AM
A pretty weak case you have going there.



How so? I've yet to see any proof that Dunn was bad influence in the clubhouse. Surely you're not resting your case on a lounge chair.

will5979
08-08-2010, 08:41 AM
It really baffles me to think that anyone wanted rid of or wants nothing to do with a man that can easily hit .260 with 40 HR, 100 RBIs, 100 Runs scored, a very high OBP, and an intimitading factor in your lineup, you all amaze the hell outta me, but hey, lets have Jay Bruce instead, he after all has a glove.:rolleyes:

GIDP
08-08-2010, 09:00 AM
It really baffles me to think that anyone wanted rid of or wants nothing to do with a man that can easily hit .260 with 40 HR, 100 RBIs, 100 Runs scored, a very high OBP, and an intimitading factor in your lineup, you all amaze the hell outta me, but hey, lets have Jay Bruce instead, he after all has a glove.:rolleyes:

I've read this about 10 times and still not any closer to understanding what you are saying.

I think its Adam Dunn is better than Jay Bruce or something but I cant really be sure.

scott91575
08-08-2010, 11:16 AM
It really baffles me to think that anyone wanted rid of or wants nothing to do with a man that can easily hit .260 with 40 HR, 100 RBIs, 100 Runs scored, a very high OBP, and an intimitading factor in your lineup, you all amaze the hell outta me, but hey, lets have Jay Bruce instead, he after all has a glove.:rolleyes:

Just look at his WAR prior to this year. In the previous four (including over 2.5 with the Reds) he averaged below 2 (that is not even considered a starter). While it's not a perfect stat by any means, it shows what many of the people on here saw outside of your numbers.

I am probably one of the few people who is in between. I would not have minded to see him stay, and I didn't mind seeing him go.

Yet there is no doubt that prior to this year he was hugely overpaid and surprise, surprise....it's a contract year.

Griffey012
08-08-2010, 11:47 AM
How so? I've yet to see any proof that Dunn was bad influence in the clubhouse. Surely you're not resting your case on a lounge chair.

I've also never seen anywhere that Dunn was a good influence in the club house. A 10 million dollar player should be more than "just one of the guys." That's the role of the rookies and young guys.

will5979
08-08-2010, 03:57 PM
I've read this about 10 times and still not any closer to understanding what you are saying.

I think its Adam Dunn is better than Jay Bruce or something but I cant really be sure.

And I'll say it 10 more times, yes Dunn is better than Bruce. Could you imagine what his numbers would be with the protection in this lineup?

BigJohn
08-08-2010, 04:33 PM
RISP is more important than the made up stat called WAR!



Wins Above Replacement is a statistic that attempts to measure the "total value" of a player over a given season.

WAR calculates the total number of wins that any player adds to his team over the course of a season by comparing the player's performance with that of a fictitious replacement. A "replacement player" is assumed to be an average Triple-A callup who might appear in the majors only as replacement for an injured player, and whose hitting/fielding or pitching skills are far below league average. According to Baseball Prospectus, a team consisting entirely of replacement-level players would likely be historically bad, winning only 20-25 games over a full 162-game season.
'



Seems to me that the REDS have had a lot more wins since replacing Adam Dunn!

GIDP
08-08-2010, 04:35 PM
RISP is more important than the made up stat called WAR!

So what you are saying is 100 or so PA is more important than every other thing in baseball combined?

Griffey012
08-08-2010, 04:56 PM
So what you are saying is 100 or so PA is more important than every other thing in baseball combined?

A double with runners on base should be more valuable than a double with nobody on. The issue with WAR is it attempts to neutralize hitters like Howard who are always up with guys on, and players on poor teams who are never up with guys on. It has given a value of expected runs created by each type of outcome. The problem is there are always going to be exceptions to the norm and you'll have guys that consistently can't hit with RISP, and their WAR's are inflated because they rack up a bunch of singles, doubles, and home runs with empty bases.

Howard has more 23 more home runs, 5 more doubles, and 4 more triples with runners on base in 50 less AB's than with nobody on. Dunn on the other hand has 43 less home runs, 56 less doubles, and 4 less triples in 500 less AB's than with nobody on. His AB/HR, AB/2b, and AB/3b ratios and BA all get worse with runners on, risp, risp 2 outs. While Howard's AB/HR, AB/3b, AB/2b ratios and BA are all better than or equal to what he does with nobody on base.

WAR does not account for the fact that Howard produces more with his hits than Adam Dunn does, because he produces more with runners on base and Dunn produces less with runners on base.

texasdave
08-08-2010, 04:59 PM
I've also never seen anywhere that Dunn was a good influence in the club house. A 10 million dollar player should be more than "just one of the guys." That's the role of the rookies and young guys.

If Griffey and Dunn were such good influences in the clubhouse then why did they clubhouse attitude have to be turned around by Rolen, Cabrera and
Baker?

scott91575
08-08-2010, 05:06 PM
RISP is more important than the made up stat called WAR!



Wins Above Replacement is a statistic that attempts to measure the "total value" of a player over a given season.

WAR calculates the total number of wins that any player adds to his team over the course of a season by comparing the player's performance with that of a fictitious replacement. A "replacement player" is assumed to be an average Triple-A callup who might appear in the majors only as replacement for an injured player, and whose hitting/fielding or pitching skills are far below league average. According to Baseball Prospectus, a team consisting entirely of replacement-level players would likely be historically bad, winning only 20-25 games over a full 162-game season.
'



Seems to me that the REDS have had a lot more wins since replacing Adam Dunn!

That is pretty spurious reasoning. It's not like the Reds are the same team since Dunn left. Just ask yourself this question....would the Reds be better with Hamilton in center? The Reds have won more since he left.

BTW....RISP over a short period of time has proven to be a rather poor predictor of a player. The vast majority of hitters over their career have RISP numbers very similar to their overall production. Hence why it is not used much in the evaluation of players. At best you may find a few anomolies over the lifetime of a player. In the case of Adam Dunn, his career OPS wRISP is .897 and overall career OPS is .907. His BA is slightly lower, but that may be due to being pitched around some w/RISP. Anyway, you will find that trend similar across the league. RISP numbers will normally end up within statistical variance of a players overall stats. Hence why it is not used as an evaluator for the majority of players.

Griffey012
08-08-2010, 05:21 PM
If Griffey and Dunn were such good influences in the clubhouse then why did they clubhouse attitude have to be turned around by Rolen, Cabrera and
Baker?

I was by no means saying Dunn was a good influence in the clubhouse. Someone stated he had never seen anyone say anything negative about Dunn in the clubhouse, and I was also stating I have never heard anyone say anything good. Griffey wasn't part of the discussion but he is in the exact same boat as Dunn.

scott91575
08-08-2010, 05:23 PM
A double with runners on base should be more valuable than a double with nobody on. The issue with WAR is it attempts to neutralize hitters like Howard who are always up with guys on, and players on poor teams who are never up with guys on. It has given a value of expected runs created by each type of outcome. The problem is there are always going to be exceptions to the norm and you'll have guys that consistently can't hit with RISP, and their WAR's are inflated because they rack up a bunch of singles, doubles, and home runs with empty bases.

Howard has more 23 more home runs, 5 more doubles, and 4 more triples with runners on base in 50 less AB's than with nobody on. Dunn on the other hand has 43 less home runs, 56 less doubles, and 4 less triples in 500 less AB's than with nobody on. His AB/HR, AB/2b, and AB/3b ratios and BA all get worse with runners on, risp, risp 2 outs. While Howard's AB/HR, AB/3b, AB/2b ratios and BA are all better than or equal to what he does with nobody on base.

WAR does not account for the fact that Howard produces more with his hits than Adam Dunn does, because he produces more with runners on base and Dunn produces less with runners on base.

and for his career Howard is .987 OPS w/RISP and .951 without RISP. Not a huge difference, and over the next few years it will probably get closer as the sample sizes increase. That is why RISP is not used in Sabermetric statistics. RISP stats trend towards a players overall stats, and the overall stats have a larger sample size. So why use a smaller sample size when you have a larger one? No stats are perfect, but there is a reason RISP is ignored in Sabermetric stats. The sample sizes each year are small in comparison to the overall stats, and as historical stats have proven over a long enough time RISP stats are very similar to overall stats.

WAR is not a perfect stat, but way better than batting w/RISP for part of a year.

GIDP
08-08-2010, 05:39 PM
No one really can believe that RISP is the most important part of any baseball players game.

Griffey012
08-08-2010, 05:42 PM
and for his career Howard is .987 OPS w/RISP and .951 without RISP. Not a huge difference, and over the next few years it will probably get closer as the sample sizes increase. That is why RISP is not used in Sabermetric statistics. RISP stats trend towards a players overall stats, and the overall stats have a larger sample size. So why use a smaller sample size when you have a larger one? No stats are perfect, but there is a reason RISP is ignored in Sabermetric stats. The sample sizes each year are small in comparison to the overall stats, and as historical stats have proven over a long enough time RISP stats are very similar to overall stats.

WAR is not a perfect stat, but way better than batting w/RISP for part of a year.

Howard is actually only a .879 OPS with bases empty. He has a .951 OPS overall. It's pretty hard to say based on the size of the sample, about 1750 AB's with the bases empty and 1800 PA's with runners on base and 1100 with RISP, that Howard's numbers with RISP will decrease towards his numbers with nobody on base.

Dunn has an even larger sample size himself. Using RISP numbers inside of 1 season is not useful because the sample size is usually relatively small, but over the course of someone's career the sample sizes are plenty large to realize some noticable trends.

I wasn't advocating that a slash line w/RISP is more important or better than WAR. I was just using Dunn and Howard as an example to explain one of the fallacy's with WAR when comparing two players. Dunn has shown an ability to walk with runners on, but not hit. Whereas Howard as shown an ability to elevate his game which doesn't necessarily show up in WAR.

texasdave
08-08-2010, 06:02 PM
I was by no means saying Dunn was a good influence in the clubhouse. Someone stated he had never seen anyone say anything negative about Dunn in the clubhouse, and I was also stating I have never heard anyone say anything good. Griffey wasn't part of the discussion but he is in the exact same boat as Dunn.

I quoted the wrong person. My bad. I was actually agreeing with you earlier.

scott91575
08-08-2010, 06:08 PM
Howard is actually only a .879 OPS with bases empty.

You are right, I meant overall.

Anyway, I was rather simplistic in only using OPS. Big time hitters will often have a higher walk rate w/RISP and that bumps their OPS. If anything Adam Dunn, if you consider him at the same level of Ryan Howard, is a slight anomaly. His BA and slugging are a fair amount lower w/RISP than no men on, while Ryan Howard is slightly higher in those numbers. Probably better to use BA+slugging for RISP.

Anyway, it would take a lot to go into the whole RISP position thing (which if used as a major stat you essentially ignore the importance of actually getting on base when no one is on). I used a very simplistic reasoning, and it shouldn't be completely ignored when evaluating a player. Yet RISP is also very dependent on other factors (batting position, frequency of RISP, lineup protection, etc), and as stated numbers will trend towards overall stats for the career of a player. Those things will of course also affect overall stats, but to a lesser extent. Hence why overall stats are used in WAR to compare players across the league. It helps reduce the anomalies from team to team.

Magdal
08-08-2010, 07:06 PM
So whom claimed Dunn?

Hondo
08-08-2010, 07:09 PM
So whom claimed Dunn?

Yeah, I want an answer too! This post kinda got railed off into a "Moneyball" Billy Beane debate of massive porportions!

scott91575
08-08-2010, 08:41 PM
So whom claimed Dunn?

No one knows since they are kept a secret (and it hasn't leaked yet). From the rumor mill the lowest record team was the Dodgers or the Rockies, and it is believed one of those teams did it in order to prevent the Giants from getting him (the Giants actually admitted to putting in a claim but another team with a worse record claimed him).

The Dodgers are the most popular pick from analysts as the team that did it.

XU Lou
08-09-2010, 02:51 PM
No one knows since they are kept a secret (and it hasn't leaked yet). From the rumor mill the lowest record team was the Dodgers or the Rockies, and it is believed one of those teams did it in order to prevent the Giants from getting him (the Giants actually admitted to putting in a claim but another team with a worse record claimed him).

The Dodgers are the most popular pick from analysts as the team that did it.

And how long do they have to negotiate a deal, assuming the claiming team even intended on dealing?

texasdave
08-09-2010, 03:34 PM
And how long do they have to negotiate a deal, assuming the claiming team even intended on dealing?

10 days, I believe.

I have to correct this. I guess it is only 2 days.


At that point, a team has 48 hours to either try to work out a trade with the claiming club or remove the player from waivers. A player can only be pulled back from waivers once, but if he clears waivers either the first or a second time through, a team can attempt to trade him to any club.

Vottomatic
08-09-2010, 04:25 PM
Yeah, I'm surprised the name of the team hasn't been leaked or the deal decided yet.

davereds24
08-09-2010, 04:25 PM
This afternoon was the deadline, doesn't look like Dunn is going anywhere.