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mrherd05
07-25-2010, 01:08 PM
We get him today, in the five spot.

Should be interesting.

scott91575
07-25-2010, 01:16 PM
Considering Bruce is 1 for 17 with 10 strike outs vs. Wandy Rodriguez it is a no brainer.

GIDP
07-25-2010, 01:18 PM
Considering Bruce is 1 for 17 with 10 strike outs vs. Wandy Rodriguez it is a no brainer.

Cabrera was 0-9 with 1 walk against Oswalt going into yesterday.

RileyRed
07-25-2010, 01:22 PM
Can anyone honestly come up with a legit reason why we should not be platooning the outfield...and not just Bruce-Heisey but also Gomes-Nix...After all Lance had an incredible day yesterday and proved his potential.

RedsFanInBama
07-25-2010, 01:25 PM
Still, Cabrera was at least hitting well (.400 or close to it) over the last 10 games. So there was some reason to keep him in there, despite the matchup.

Bruce is .194 over his last 10 and we all know he still isn't too good against lefties (although he is getting better). Combine that with his numbers versus Rodriguez, and I am glad we're getting a shot of Heisey today.

I also would have been ok with giving Stubbs the day off and letting Bruce keep playing, but I'm ok with this lineup today either way.

RedsFanInBama
07-25-2010, 01:28 PM
Can anyone honestly come up with a legit reason why we should not be platooning the outfield...and not just Bruce-Heisey but also Gomes-Nix...After all Lance had an incredible day yesterday and proved his potential.
Yes. Bruce does not need to platoon. He's still very young with much potential. He is improving with each passing year versus lefty. Heck, he had a huge hit the other night against a lefty reliever to win the game.

Heisey should be playing more, no question. But I don't think he should be platooning with Bruce. I don't see any outfielders on our team that absolutely have to be in the lineup every day, though. It's not that hard to get four outfielders consistent work. Heisey is versatile enough to play all three outfield positions. No reason he shouldn't be starting at least three games a week.

As far as Gomes, I could see him platooning some as the season continues. If you look at his numbers outside of one really hot month, they are either bad or dreadful. He does not need to be our every day left fielder, espeically batting 4th or 5th. Not sure if it will be Nix or Dickerson. I think the FO wants it to be Dickerson, but Nix could me making a last-ditch effort to save himself. Can we keep both of them, though?

GIDP
07-25-2010, 01:31 PM
Can anyone honestly come up with a legit reason why we should not be platooning the outfield...and not just Bruce-Heisey but also Gomes-Nix...After all Lance had an incredible day yesterday and proved his potential.

Well for one, Gomes hits righties better than Nix hits righties.

Over all Nix would be an upgrade because of his D, but I just want to point out that the splits really doesnt show much.

Career vs RH pitchers
Gomes: .232/.311/.449
Nix: .246/.286/.445

You dont do a straight platoon in RF because Bruce is a 23 year old who while he struggles vs. LH pitching the only way to get better is to play him against them. Plus he has improved, he's still not great or even good, he has improved. Plus his OF defense has so much value that you really shouldnt sit him. Would you platoon Brandon Phillips because he has hit bad against RH pitching all these years?

the problem with Bruce more than anything is LH relievers that eat him up

vs LH starting pitching Bruce hasnt hit as bad as some might think
.240/.303/.407

scott91575
07-25-2010, 01:58 PM
Cabrera was 0-9 with 1 walk against Oswalt going into yesterday.

So you are saying you should play guys with terrible BA's vs. certain pitchers in hopes they are due. You would make a great manager.

GIDP
07-25-2010, 02:05 PM
So you are saying you should play guys with terrible BA's vs. certain pitchers in hopes they are due. You would make a great manager.

Besides, if there are a lefty SS on the bench, and Cabera was not hitting well he doesn't play either.

I didnt say that. I was actually pointing out that sitting or starting a guy because of some 20 or so PA is a silly way to go about managing a ball club.

GIDP
07-25-2010, 02:09 PM
Also I would like to add that phillips is 7 for 29 against Wandy, should he sit?
Cabrera is 1 for 6 should he sit?
Janish is 3 for 9 should he start?

I just would like to know why the stats matter for some guys but others Dusty ignore them. If you are going to manage by what guys have done against certain guys why is he selective?

RedsFanInBama
07-25-2010, 02:18 PM
7 for 29 >>>>>> 1 for 17 with 10 K's.

I get the point, but you have to take several things into consideration. Who needs a day off? Who is hitting well going into the day? Who is not hitting well coming into the game? Bruce is struggling right now. Why not give him a day off rather than running him out against a guy that has eaten his lunch? 1 for 17 is one thing, but the 10 K's tell me that Bruce has not a clue against Rodriguez.

GIDP
07-25-2010, 02:32 PM
7 for 29 >>>>>> 1 for 17 with 10 K's.

I get the point, but you have to take several things into consideration. Who needs a day off? Who is hitting well going into the day? Who is not hitting well coming into the game? Bruce is struggling right now. Why not give him a day off rather than running him out against a guy that has eaten his lunch? 1 for 17 is one thing, but the 10 K's tell me that Bruce has not a clue against Rodriguez.

I understand why you sit guys, I just want to know why its used so selectively.

scott91575
07-25-2010, 02:37 PM
I didnt say that. I was actually pointing out that sitting or starting a guy because of some 20 or so PA is a silly way to go about managing a ball club.

Not sitting a guy who went 1 for 17 is silly? Really? 17 is very acceptable sample size when you are talking about a .059 BA and a 59% K rate. It's close to statistically significant, and with such extreme numbers it's not like he is trending toward anything resembling acceptable. Even with a low confidence and high standard deviation it's not even approaching .200.

Besides, if you don't think managers make tons of decisions based on 20 or so plate appearances, you are crazy. If happens every game especially with bullpen pitchers and pinch hitters.

Heck, there are only a hand full of Reds who have over 20 at bats against Wandy. That is a pitcher who is in his 6th year against an inter divisional foe. Just getting to 30 or more plate appearances against one pitcher takes a long time, and very long if it's outside the division. In essence you are saying managers should ignore hitter vs. pitcher matchups for the vast majority of the league.

Griffey012
07-25-2010, 02:37 PM
Also I would like to add that phillips is 7 for 29 against Wandy, should he sit?
Cabrera is 1 for 6 should he sit?
Janish is 3 for 9 should he start?

I just would like to know why the stats matter for some guys but others Dusty ignore them. If you are going to manage by what guys have done against certain guys why is he selective?

He probably took the fact that OCab has been on a bit of a mini-tear since the all-star break into account. Not sure what Cairo's numbers against Oswalt looked like either, they may have been just as bad. It was good to see Janish get a start though.

crazyjdawg
07-25-2010, 04:27 PM
If there's anyone we need to platoon, it's Drew Stubbs.

How do you have a guy play 94 of 100 games when he's hitting .239, leading the team in SO with 100, has only walked 31 times, only 9 doubles in 326 AB (even with all his supposed speed). And 5 of his 13 HRs were in two games that were blowouts anyway (and 3 HRs in Wrigley are not real HRs anyway...).

He may have good speed on defense but I never see him making diving catches or getting amazing jumps on balls. He is an average defender and a below average hitter.

I would say platoon him with Heisey, but it seems unnecessary since they're both right handers. I say Laynce Nix should get more time in right and move Heisey to CF. Have an outfield of Gomes-Heisey-Nix every 4th or 5th day. Making Stubbs play CF every single day is not good for him. And Bruce could use a little time off as well.

Vottomatic
07-25-2010, 07:31 PM
When I was growing up, you earned it. What has Jay Bruce earned? He was good in the minors and has been mediocre in the majors.

Why Drew Stubbs is the chosen one is beyond me.

I'd rotate Stubbs, Bruce and Heisey continuously and see who does the best. If none of them do that well, make a trade.

GIDP
07-25-2010, 07:35 PM
Bruce is above average hitter, and a great defensive OF.

Mind you hes 23. He was Minor league player of the year in all of baseball as well. Bruce did earn it and has been earning it. Maybe not to the level you want him to but he has been earning it quite well.

Vottomatic
07-25-2010, 07:37 PM
Bruce is above average hitter, and a great defensive OF.

Mind you hes 23. He was Minor league player of the year in all of baseball as well. Bruce did earn it and has been earning it. Maybe not to the level you want him to but he has been earning it quite well.

That's one opinion.

bgwilly31
07-25-2010, 08:53 PM
Can anyone honestly come up with a legit reason why we should not be platooning the outfield...and not just Bruce-Heisey but also Gomes-Nix...After all Lance had an incredible day yesterday and proved his potential.

You cant talk good about nix around these parts. Most people around here wanted him down and GMJ up. :rolleyes:

GIDP
07-25-2010, 08:54 PM
You cant talk good about nix around these parts. Most people around here wanted him down and GMJ up. :rolleyes:

I dont know about wanting GMJ up but yea a lot of people dont care to have Nix around especially as our LH power bat when he really doesnt hit RH pitching all that well.

sabometrics
07-25-2010, 08:56 PM
I don't think anyone on these boards wanted to see GMJ up over Nix. Dickerson? Yes. GMJ? No.

MrMcConnell
07-25-2010, 09:07 PM
Also I would like to add that phillips is 7 for 29 against Wandy, should he sit?
Cabrera is 1 for 6 should he sit?
Janish is 3 for 9 should he start?

I just would like to know why the stats matter for some guys but others Dusty ignore them. If you are going to manage by what guys have done against certain guys why is he selective?

Because Jay's stats, as usual, are more abysmal than everyone else in the lineup. 1-17 and 10K's is a no brainer.

7-29 is like a .240 average or something which is better than Jay's anemic stats.


Bruce is above average hitter, and a great defensive OF.

Mind you hes 23. He was Minor league player of the year in all of baseball as well. Bruce did earn it and has been earning it. Maybe not to the level you want him to but he has been earning it quite well.

Define 'above average'

Is a .247 career average 'above average?' Not to mention he BB/K numbers. . .OH and his RISP numbers as well.

Griffey012
07-25-2010, 10:52 PM
I don't think anyone on these boards wanted to see GMJ up over Nix. Dickerson? Yes. GMJ? No.

Considering Nix has looked like he forgot how to hit a baseball ever since his big weekend against Cleveland, I was seriously hoping to see Nix DFA'd and GMJ called up or another replacement brought in. That being said, Nix showed his does in fact still know how to hit a baseball. However, we need a better LH bat off the bench and that probably means replacing Nix with either Dickerson or an acquisition.

Lockdwn11
07-26-2010, 01:35 AM
I just can't understand how many of you poster on this board are dogging Jay Bruce. The kid is 23 years old give him a break. He has improved in every offensive category over last year. (by alot) The kid is only going to get better and some of you are ready to give up on him. Here is Jay's line this year.


.261/.329/.430 ops .759

Here is the guys line I think Jay compares most favorable to at the same age Larry Walker.


.241/.326/.434 ops .761


Don't give up on him just yet or you may have egg on your face later. I like Heisey alot but he is no Jay Bruce

Hondo
07-26-2010, 01:58 AM
Bruce is above average hitter, and a great defensive OF.

Mind you hes 23. He was Minor league player of the year in all of baseball as well. Bruce did earn it and has been earning it. Maybe not to the level you want him to but he has been earning it quite well.

This team needs to stick with Jay Bruce. He is a 40 HR 100 RBI guy waiting to happen....


Only thing is people need to understand he needs PROTECTION in the Line UP.

This team needs a POWER Hitter to back up these young guys!

Old NDN
07-28-2010, 12:37 PM
The concensus from most pro-Bruce posts is that he is young, needs more experience, and has lots of potential. How much more time do we give Bruce or Stubbs to become what most expect? As inconsistent as the OFs have been, there's no reason why ALL of them shouldn't be getting some time on the bench. Or, if you prefer to look at it in a more positive way: More equal playing time. I think Heisey, Nix, (or Dickerson) will put up similar numbers if given more PT. Let Dusty decide who has the "hot hand" or gives us the best chance to win.
On a side note: It sure is nice to be able to discuss the Reds and their present success. In past years, we're done by now. We've resorted to complaining about a front office that's not committed to winning, bad managers, bad players, non-trades, the Yankees, and anything else that has kept us from winning. Well we're winning more, still complaining about some of the same stuff, but it just feels different. I think it's called hope.

sivman17
07-28-2010, 12:57 PM
He has improved in every offensive category over last year. (by alot) The kid is only going to get better and some of you are ready to give up on him.

I like Jay Bruce a lot too and I also believe that we need to be more patient with him. But I have heard this argument about Bruce improving in every offensive category from a couple different posters and it's simply not true.

2009:
K in 21.7% of ABs
.470 SLG
.773 OPS

2010:
K in 26.1% of ABs
.426 SLG
.755 OPS

Obviously these are just a select few offensive stats, and he has shown some improvement in other categories, like BA and OBP. However, you have to realize that he had a very bad year last season. And tracking his progress since his rookie year, he hasn't shown a whole lot of consistent improvement.

RedsFanInBama
07-28-2010, 02:37 PM
Why Drew Stubbs is the chosen one is beyond me.

It's not really beyond you. He was a first rounder. Heisey was a 17th rounder. It's that simple.

Has to be. There's no other reason why Heisey shouldn't be playing more. He's outperformed Stubbs all the way up through the system.

scott91575
07-28-2010, 02:46 PM
It's not really beyond you. He was a first rounder. Heisey was a 17th rounder. It's that simple.

Has to be. There's no other reason why Heisey shouldn't be playing more. He's outperformed Stubbs all the way up through the system.

That and Stubbs is one of the fastest players in baseball. For Dusty, that is like crack.

RedsFanInBama
07-28-2010, 02:50 PM
That and Stubbs is one of the fastest players in baseball. For Dusty, that is like crack.

Maybe. I'll put some of the blame on Dusty, but I'm pretty sure those above Dusty want to see Stubbs out there more than they want to see Heisey and have let that be known.

sagevic
07-28-2010, 03:04 PM
Bruce was hitting line-drives at the highest rate on the team early in the year. He got killed by the shift and he made adjustments that haven't really panned out.

But his BABIP has always been unusually low, and that has really hurt him with RISP. He doesn't strike out as much as people think he does. He needs to K less, but he doesn't wear the sombrerro very often (unlike Stubbs).

He came up too soon. He should just now be working on his first 500 ABs. Stubbs wasn't ready either. He should still be in AAA working on his bunting and how to check his swing. they both are excellent defenders, but they are suffering from being rushed.

After the Reds traded Hamilton, they needed Bruce to be the everyday RFer and to make the fans forget Josh. Obviously that didn't happen. They both are best suited for RF, but they could have played together, or Jay could have waited longer. I don't want to re-hash the Hamilton trade here, but it is tied directly to Bruce's development.

RedsFanInBama
07-28-2010, 03:08 PM
He came up too soon. He should just now be working on his first 500 ABs. ... After the Reds traded Hamilton, they needed Bruce to be the everyday RFer and to make the fans forget Josh.

Not sure I agree with that. Bruce had more than 400 plate appearances in AAA and absolutely dominated. What good does it do a guy to just keep dominating AAA baseball? There is going to be a learning curve, whether you wait an extra few months to make the promotion or not.

rolenmvp
08-02-2010, 10:34 PM
I mean yes? he will strikeout but the guy can rake, simple as that. anybody agree?

GIDP
08-02-2010, 10:38 PM
It proves he should be starting over Gomes.

BurgervilleBuck
08-02-2010, 10:44 PM
It proves he should be starting over Gomes.

This.

Hondo
08-02-2010, 10:48 PM
It proves Wood is a helkuva pitcher... Even though it was against the Bucs, also Springer got a chance to get back in a Major League Game. Perfect scenerio.

UPRedsFan
08-02-2010, 11:03 PM
No. Dickerson should start over Stubbs. Heisey should start over Gomes.

bshall2105
08-02-2010, 11:04 PM
It was pretty funny when Stubbs came in and immediately struck out on 3 pitches.

texasdave
08-02-2010, 11:04 PM
It proves there can be a game thread without any name-calling. LOL.

RedsFanInBama
08-02-2010, 11:06 PM
He should be starting over somebody. Whether it's Gomes or Stubbs matters not to me.

GIDP
08-02-2010, 11:08 PM
No. Dickerson should start over Stubbs. Heisey should start over Gomes.

I'm wouldnt complain about a platoon of Dickerson and Stubbs. At least until Dickerson get hurt again or his numbers normalize a little.

Roush's socks
08-02-2010, 11:20 PM
I'm wouldnt complain about a platoon of Dickerson and Stubbs. At least until Dickerson get hurt again or his numbers normalize a little.

I think Heisey should get more at bats, splitting time in LF with Gomes and CF with Stubbs. I could also go with Dickerson in the CF platoon role with either Stubbs or Heisey. I think they see Gomes as a good RBI guy and that is why he is getting so much playing time.
As far as Dickerson vs. Nix, I don't think there is that much difference. Nix has more power and Dickerson a higher OBP. Both are pretty good defenders.

GIDP
08-02-2010, 11:25 PM
I think Heisey should get more at bats, splitting time in LF with Gomes and CF with Stubbs. I could also go with Dickerson in the CF platoon role with either Stubbs or Heisey. I think they see Gomes as a good RBI guy and that is why he is getting so much playing time.
As far as Dickerson vs. Nix, I don't think there is that much difference. Nix has more power and Dickerson a higher OBP. Both are pretty good defenders.

1 point of OBP is always going to out produce 1 point in slugging. Dickerson is a better player because his production is based off more than just hoping you swing and get a hit. Nix basically doesnt do anything 88% of the time when he goes up to the plate.

gedred69
08-03-2010, 12:05 AM
He should be starting over somebody. Whether it's Gomes or Stubbs matters not to me.

He should start over any of the 3 regulars. Not that I'm a big Heisey fan, but anybody available should start over what Bruce, Gomes, or Stubbs have done for the last month.

Need to find someone to hit leadoff!

bshall2105
08-03-2010, 12:07 AM
He should start over any of the 3 regulars. Not that I'm a big Heisey fan, but anybody available should start over what Bruce, Gomes, or Stubbs have done for the last month.

Need to find someone to hit leadoff!

Brandon Phillips on base 4 times tonight, scored twice. He also leads the league in runs scored. I'm quite happy with our leadoff situation. Heisey looks good hitting seventh.

RedsFanInBama
08-03-2010, 12:07 AM
I could see Dickerson batting leadoff against righties when he comes back in a platoon. He does a good job of getting on base and has nice speed. But then against lefties you may be looking at Brandon in there still. Brandon has done well, but I think he'd do REALLY well in the #2 spot. I'm not at all unhappy with Brandon as the leadoff, but I would prefer to see someone else.

gedred69
08-03-2010, 12:14 AM
I could see Dickerson batting leadoff against righties when he comes back in a platoon. He does a good job of getting on base and has nice speed. But then against lefties you may be looking at Brandon in there still. Brandon has done well, but I think he'd do REALLY well in the #2 spot. I'm not at all unhappy with Brandon as the leadoff, but I would prefer to see someone else.

Currently Phillips is the only option at #1. To elaborate though, my point exactly. When the big three, Phillips, Votto, Rolen bat 2-3-4, whoever bats 5-6 gets pitched to differently and is therefore, more effective. Look at what Gomes has done since that sequence has been broken. Not much.......

DaytonFlyer
08-06-2010, 01:07 PM
So, is Heisey pretty much the every day CF now?

If so, good for him... and Dusty.

Orodle
08-06-2010, 01:09 PM
He should be. I like Stubb's defense but I think he should be sent down to get his swing right and come back up for Sept. callups and see where hes at then. Dickerson should get the call.

Jones1
08-06-2010, 01:09 PM
Chris deserves it, hes busted it!

RedsFanInBama
08-06-2010, 01:12 PM
Heisey has definitely earned it.

Jones1
08-06-2010, 01:12 PM
Orodle I have a strong feeling that is exactly wht will happen. The worst thing they can do is leave stubbs on the bench he needs to get his swings in at triple a and we need another LH bat on the bench. When Cdick gets back from cali monday u may just see that move. I also think it depends on how well heisey does in this weekend. If he rakes you'll probable see it happen.

brm7675
08-06-2010, 01:13 PM
This move should have happened a few weeks back. This is another strike on Dusty as he so much want's to be the players friend, bud, pal that he won't always make the best move for the team.

Jones1
08-06-2010, 01:15 PM
I dont fault Baker stubbs has shown some flashes of being an incredible player and his defense is VERY good in CF. But Heisey has played so well hes forced Bakers hand. I really like Heisey hitting second too. I expect him to have a big weekend hitting in the two hole...

bigredmechanism
08-06-2010, 01:52 PM
Not that our outfield is particularly good offensively either way, but I feel much more comfortable with Heisey in there, be it right left or center.

Stubbs has a lot of talent and athleticism, but he looks just terrible lately. Bruce too. So yes, Heisey has been putting both of them on the bench as of late.

sivman17
08-06-2010, 01:56 PM
Bout time

Pony Boy
08-06-2010, 02:05 PM
This move should have happened a few weeks back. This is another strike on Dusty as he so much want's to be the players friend, bud, pal that he won't always make the best move for the team.

No it's not. Dusty handled this the right way. Stubbs was his starting CF. You can't give away his position based on a bad month or even a bad couple of months. Now if it last longer than that you go with the next guy, which is exactly what Dusty is doing.

Fans want to switch out players as soon as they start slumping. Managers cant do that.

GIDP
08-06-2010, 02:44 PM
Stubbs July: .657 OPS
Gomes July: .674 OPS

One lost his job the other is the most secure man in baseball. Funny how that works.

Red in Atl
08-06-2010, 03:33 PM
Stubbs July: .657 OPS
Gomes July: .674 OPS

One lost his job the other is the most secure man in baseball. Funny how that works.

I'm not sure I understand your man love for Stubbs. Do you watch him bat?
Read this article about Stubbs and Heisey...

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100803/SPT04/308030081/1071/SPT04/Heisey-finally-gets-his-shot

Stubbs has gotten the "free pass" his entire career, while Heisey busts his tail and succeeds. I get the "why it's done", but you have wonder about the results. Regardless, it tells me why Stubbs should be sent back to AAA. He needs to learn how to "Man Up" instead of always not succeeding, but still moving forward.

There's no "Free Pass" in the majors, untill you become a superstar. Right now he's a struggling 2nd year player that hurts this team everytime he's up at the plate.

And I wish you'd quit comparing him to Gomes. You can compare numbers all day long, but you aren't looking at why Gomes is out there. He's out there because he busts his tail constantly and is a team leader. Same as Cabrera. All you want to do is crunch your little numbers everyday and criticize the very people who've helped get the younger guys "heads" in the right places to finally have some success in this league.

And Gomes is not the most secure man in baseball. Nix gets his starts as did Dickerson. Plus the guy was hitting over .400 with men in scoring postition for the entire first half of the season. What the heck has Drew done beside a couple big homers. Gomes has done that in one series.

This team has been LOST for the last decade because they haven't had any leaders like Rolen, Cabrera and Gomes. Now that we have them, and have success, you bash away everyday. It gets real old.

Pony Boy
08-06-2010, 03:36 PM
Stubbs July: .657 OPS
Gomes July: .674 OPS

One lost his job the other is the most secure man in baseball. Funny how that works.

It probably has something to do with this:

Gomes

April .621
May 1.056
June .704

Stubbs

April .572
May .864
June .611

...and Gomes is at .900 so far in August

RedsFanInBama
08-06-2010, 03:39 PM
It probably has something to do with this:

Gomes

April .621
May 1.056
June .704

Stubbs

April .572
May .864
June .611

...and Gomes is at .900 so far in August

Full season statistics only matter when GIDP decides they matter. Sometimes monthly splits matter, but only if they fit his argument.

For instance, he didn't care that Orlando Cabrera was hitting well in July. He just talked about his season-long numbers. He doesn't care that Jay Bruce is struggling, he still talks about his season-long numbers.

But in this case, he ignores that Gomes has out-OPS'd Stubbs by more than 100 points for the season to use the monthly splits. Go figure.

That's just a view from afar. I could be misevaluating my debate buddy's motives.

DocRed
08-06-2010, 03:53 PM
Give me Heisy in CF, with CD/Gomes/Bruce/Stubbs platooning the other 2 spots depending on who is producing the rest of the year.

Vottomatic
08-06-2010, 06:22 PM
Stubbs will be traded in the offseason. Mark it down.
Heisey will be our starting CFer next season. Mark it down. He also is our new 2-hole hitter.

Francisco will be up and backing up Rolen at 3B next season. Rolen will play about 120 games.

Nix will probably be allowed to walk and Dorn will be the lefthitting option in the OF along with CDick.

GIDP
08-06-2010, 06:25 PM
It probably has something to do with this:

Gomes

April .621
May 1.056
June .704

Stubbs

April .572
May .864
June .611

...and Gomes is at .900 so far in August

Yea one guy play zero d the other one plays pretty close to gold glove level. Still not seeing where Gomes should have his firm grasp on the job that Stubbs apparently lost.

You just quoted me 2 outfielders who both are pretty darn bad other than may, yet 1 lost his job, and the other has no chance of losing his.

GIDP
08-06-2010, 06:26 PM
Full season statistics only matter when GIDP decides they matter. Sometimes monthly splits matter, but only if they fit his argument.

For instance, he didn't care that Orlando Cabrera was hitting well in July. He just talked about his season-long numbers. He doesn't care that Jay Bruce is struggling, he still talks about his season-long numbers.

But in this case, he ignores that Gomes has out-OPS'd Stubbs by more than 100 points for the season to use the monthly splits. Go figure.

That's just a view from afar. I could be misevaluating my debate buddy's motives.

Cant help you if you only hear what you want to hear.

TC81190
08-06-2010, 06:26 PM
I'm not sure I understand your man love for Stubbs. Do you watch him bat?
Read this article about Stubbs and Heisey...

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100803/SPT04/308030081/1071/SPT04/Heisey-finally-gets-his-shot

Stubbs has gotten the "free pass" his entire career, while Heisey busts his tail and succeeds. I get the "why it's done", but you have wonder about the results. Regardless, it tells me why Stubbs should be sent back to AAA. He needs to learn how to "Man Up" instead of always not succeeding, but still moving forward.

There's no "Free Pass" in the majors, untill you become a superstar. Right now he's a struggling 2nd year player that hurts this team everytime he's up at the plate.

And I wish you'd quit comparing him to Gomes. You can compare numbers all day long, but you aren't looking at why Gomes is out there. He's out there because he busts his tail constantly and is a team leader. Same as Cabrera. All you want to do is crunch your little numbers everyday and criticize the very people who've helped get the younger guys "heads" in the right places to finally have some success in this league.

And Gomes is not the most secure man in baseball. Nix gets his starts as did Dickerson. Plus the guy was hitting over .400 with men in scoring postition for the entire first half of the season. What the heck has Drew done beside a couple big homers. Gomes has done that in one series.

This team has been LOST for the last decade because they haven't had any leaders like Rolen, Cabrera and Gomes. Now that we have them, and have success, you bash away everyday. It gets real old.
No, Stubbs should not be starting by any stretch of the imagination and yes he has been tremendously hurting the team. But that doesn't preclude Gomes from having the same said about him. Having a sub .700 OPS is unacceptable from a LF, especially when you consider his garbage defense.

I'd replace the whole OF right now if I could, but unfortunately we don't have any near-starting caliber OF depth other than Heisey.

RedsFanInBama
08-06-2010, 10:02 PM
Cant help you if you only hear what you want to hear.

I don't hear anything. Is there an audio option on this message board where posts can be read to you?

Gomes has out-OPS'd Stubbs in every single month and is more than 100 points higher than him for the season. That's a significant difference.

Knightro28
08-06-2010, 10:04 PM
I don't hear anything. Is there an audio option on this message board where posts can be read to you?

Gomes has out-OPS'd Stubbs in every single month and is more than 100 points higher than him for the season. That's a significant difference.

Not to take sides here, but what is 100 points of OPS worth in terms of defensive value?

I don't think anyone expected Stubbs and Gomes to OPS the same from the get go.

RedsFanInBama
08-06-2010, 10:08 PM
Not sure but I'd think it would take a whole hell of a lot of defense to make up for 100 points in OPS.

GIDP
08-06-2010, 10:11 PM
I don't hear anything. Is there an audio option on this message board where posts can be read to you?

Gomes has out-OPS'd Stubbs in every single month and is more than 100 points higher than him for the season. That's a significant difference.

Gomes has out hit Stubbs, but they both have been inconsistent and I simply dont know why Gomes isnt viewed as a problem when Stubbs has apparently lost his job despite given what they should be doing they are both performing at similar levels.

I dont expect Stubbs to out hit Gomes, just like I wouldnt expect Gomes to out defend Stubbs. The problem is their over all production is very big issues and given what they are doing. They both had good Mays, they both have struggled in every month.

GIDP
08-06-2010, 10:13 PM
Not sure but I'd think it would take a whole hell of a lot of defense to make up for 100 points in OPS.

You dont think so? You think 3 Gomes would out produce 3 Stubbs in the OF?

mroby85
08-06-2010, 10:18 PM
You dont think so? You think 3 Gomes would out produce 3 Stubbs in the OF?

Thats a ridiculous argument, lol. You have a LF, a CF, and a RF. It doesn't hurt you to play gomes in LF, but obviously if he played all 3 spots it wouldn't be good. Gomes has slumped pretty bad lately, but to be honest I would go with him over Stubbs. He's more consistent about putting the bat on the ball, and Stubbs strikeout/ab rate is absurd! That being said both have been pretty pathetic lately, along with Bruce.

bshall2105
08-06-2010, 10:19 PM
I have to say GIDP is making a lot of sense here. We all agree Gomes is a better hitter, and we all agree Stubbs is a better defender. If you average that out they are basically of equal value and yet Stubbs is the one who takes all of the heat while Gomes is never allowed to miss a start. I think that neither of them should be starting but we really lack options in the outfield. Ideally I'd like an outfield of Francisco, Heisey, and Bruce but I know Francisco may not be able to play left. Heisey has proven he deserves a shot. And for Bruce, his potential is still too great to be benched IMO.

RedsFanInBama
08-06-2010, 10:30 PM
It's not a matter of three Stubbs' or three Gomes.

It's whether a LF-CF combination of Gomes-Heisey would out-produce a LF-CF combination of Heisey-Stubbs. I think it would.

GIDP
08-06-2010, 10:42 PM
Thats a ridiculous argument, lol. You have a LF, a CF, and a RF. It doesn't hurt you to play gomes in LF, but obviously if he played all 3 spots it wouldn't be good. Gomes has slumped pretty bad lately, but to be honest I would go with him over Stubbs. He's more consistent about putting the bat on the ball, and Stubbs strikeout/ab rate is absurd! That being said both have been pretty pathetic lately, along with Bruce.

Why is it a ridiculous argument. If Gomes was the better player then why wouldnt you be willing to play 3 of them instead of 3 of Stubbs.

Even if you dont want to look at it that way. How about Gomes compared to his fellow LFers, and Stubbs compared to his fellow CFers. I dont think I'd be going too far out on a limb to suggest Gomes performs at a lower level compared to the rest of his position than Stubbs does.

Gomes has a .334 wOBA out of 14 NL LFers with 300 PA thats 10th
Out of 9 players who have had 600 innings in the field he ranks 9th in defense based on UZR/150

Out of 16 CFers who have at least 300 PA Stubbs ranks 11th with a wOBA of .309
Stubbs UZR/150 has him ranked 6th out of 12

So Gomes is basically the worst defender in LF and the 10th worst bat

Stubbs is apparently completely average in CF and the 11th worst bat.

Stubbs WAR this year is 0.8
Gomes WAR this year is 0.0

Nothing really falls in Gomes favor when you look at the numbers other than what you guys apparently want to look for in a good player. Stats be damned you will like a player over the other one for perceived reasons. I cant argue against your opinion of who is better or who has been worse.

Krawhitham
08-06-2010, 10:50 PM
Stubbs July: .657 OPS
Gomes July: .674 OPS

One lost his job the other is the most secure man in baseball. Funny how that works.


Stubbs August: .000 OPS
Gomes August: .900 OPS

see I can cherry pick stats too

RedsFanInBama
08-06-2010, 10:51 PM
If you average that out they are basically of equal value and yet Stubbs is the one who takes all of the heat while Gomes is never allowed to miss a start.
I'm not sure how you figure that. Stubbs has made 90 starts in the field. Gomes has made 83.

Krawhitham
08-06-2010, 10:53 PM
I'm not sure how you figure that. Stubbs has made 90 starts in the field. Gomes has made 82.

You are not allowed to bring facts into the conversation, what is wrong with you



What hurts Stubbs is the +30 SO he has over Gomes, some people like productive outs

GIDP
08-06-2010, 10:56 PM
Stubbs August: .000 OPS
Gomes August: .900 OPS

see I can cherry pick stats too

Its pretty sad when a discussion boils down to trolling.

bshall2105
08-06-2010, 10:57 PM
I'm not sure how you figure that. Stubbs has made 90 starts in the field. Gomes has made 83.

I'm talking more recently, Gomes has basically been playing everyday for a while now. At the beginning of the year he shared a lot of time with Dickerson and Nix, that's why his total starts are down compared to Stubbs.

GIDP
08-06-2010, 10:58 PM
You are not allowed to bring facts into the conversation, what is wrong with you



What hurts Stubbs is the +30 SO he has over Gomes, some people like productive outs
How about Stubbs 18 stolen bases and 3 caught stealing compared to Gomes 3 steals and 3 caught stealings.

We can discuss stats all you want, but what this really boils down to is people dont like stubbs and would take gomes no matter what the stats told them.

The only arguement anyone has in favor of gomes is opinion.

RedsFanInBama
08-06-2010, 11:01 PM
I'm talking more recently, Gomes has basically been playing everyday for a while now. At the beginning of the year he shared a lot of time with Dickerson and Nix, that's why his total starts are down compared to Stubbs.
It's more because of interleague play when he was being used as a DH.

RedsFanInBama
08-06-2010, 11:02 PM
We can discuss stats all you want, but what this really boils down to is people dont like stubbs and would take gomes no matter what the stats told them.

I would argue that "some" people just don't like Gomes and would take Stubbs no matter what. You being one.

bshall2105
08-06-2010, 11:03 PM
It's more because of interleague play when he was being used as a DH.

Yeah that too.

GIDP
08-06-2010, 11:03 PM
and so you guys get correct numbers Gomes OPS month is .705

Hes hitting .278/.316/.389

I care zero about those numbers but you guys care a ton so I figure I might as well make sure you have teh right ones.

RedsFanInBama
08-06-2010, 11:07 PM
I care zero about those numbers ...

No...

GIDP
08-06-2010, 11:08 PM
I would argue that "some" people just don't like Gomes and would take Stubbs no matter what. You being one.

but I'm using stats to back up my side so you wouldn't be very correct making that arguement.

and for the record I do like Stubbs more, and its because I think hes the better player. I think Gomes has been a problem going on 2 3 months. Stubbs has been a problem also and have no problem if Heisey replaces him. I also would prefer Heisey replaced Gomes because it would be the best for the Cincinnati Reds.

This whole discussion is why Gomes is viewed like hes viewed when Stubbs should have his starting job ripped from him for basically being the 2nd best starting outfielder.

there are players like Cabrera and Gomes that for some reason people love so much they would play them no matter what the results were. I dont understand that thought process. This Gomes and Stubbs argument is a lot like the Cabrera Janish one. One side has statistical points the other has opinions.

I feel very comfortable making my opinions with some type of statistical backing instead of just winging it.

GIDP
08-06-2010, 11:10 PM
No...

Yea I really do. Its 18 PA. Tomorrow he could go 4/4 with 4 singles and his OPS could be back over .900

His numbers for August really mean nothing right now because how volatile they are given the PA.

bshall2105
08-06-2010, 11:10 PM
This argument also reminds of the classic, Why is Coco Cordero still the closer of the Cincinatti Reds?

RadfordVA
08-07-2010, 12:22 AM
How come when everyone starts lumping gomes in with bruce and stubbs struggles they cant understand why his job doesnt seem in jeopardy? Its pretty simple he has produced when it counts. There are gonna be lots of big at bats down the stretch so you will probably want someone who doesnt shrink in those situations. At the end of the day scoring runs and driving them in is what matters most. His OPS might be almost equal to others but look at the stats with runners on. If you want to credit all of his RBI to the opportunities he gets batting 4th and 5th you might wanna realize that Bruce has more AB with runners on, Gomes also only has a few more AB than stubbs. We need his bat in clutch situations.

OPS With runners on;

Gomes .871
Bruce .670
Stubbs .621

But to the point of thread I definitely feel like heisey putting stubbs on bench was right move at this time. Give Bruce a little while longer to come along, but I do not see Gomes deserving to be sat anytime soon especially as the situations get more and more meaningful

RedsFanInBama
08-07-2010, 01:26 AM
How come when everyone starts lumping gomes in with bruce and stubbs struggles they cant understand why his job doesnt seem in jeopardy? Its pretty simple he has produced when it counts. There are gonna be lots of big at bats down the stretch so you will probably want someone who doesnt shrink in those situations. At the end of the day scoring runs and driving them in is what matters most. His OPS might be almost equal to others but look at the stats with runners on. If you want to credit all of his RBI to the opportunities he gets batting 4th and 5th you might wanna realize that Bruce has more AB with runners on, Gomes also only has a few more AB than stubbs. We need his bat in clutch situations.

OPS With runners on;

Gomes .871
Bruce .670
Stubbs .621

But to the point of thread I definitely feel like heisey putting stubbs on bench was right move at this time. Give Bruce a little while longer to come along, but I do not see Gomes deserving to be sat anytime soon especially as the situations get more and more meaningful
Nice post.

powersackers
08-07-2010, 04:06 AM
How come when everyone starts lumping gomes in with bruce and stubbs struggles they cant understand why his job doesnt seem in jeopardy? Its pretty simple he has produced when it counts. There are gonna be lots of big at bats down the stretch so you will probably want someone who doesnt shrink in those situations. At the end of the day scoring runs and driving them in is what matters most. His OPS might be almost equal to others but look at the stats with runners on. If you want to credit all of his RBI to the opportunities he gets batting 4th and 5th you might wanna realize that Bruce has more AB with runners on, Gomes also only has a few more AB than stubbs. We need his bat in clutch situations.

OPS With runners on;

Gomes .871
Bruce .670
Stubbs .621

But to the point of thread I definitely feel like heisey putting stubbs on bench was right move at this time. Give Bruce a little while longer to come along, but I do not see Gomes deserving to be sat anytime soon especially as the situations get more and more meaningful

Situational hitting, clutch hitting. That's the answer.

bshall2105
08-07-2010, 04:46 AM
How come when everyone starts lumping gomes in with bruce and stubbs struggles they cant understand why his job doesnt seem in jeopardy? Its pretty simple he has produced when it counts. There are gonna be lots of big at bats down the stretch so you will probably want someone who doesnt shrink in those situations. At the end of the day scoring runs and driving them in is what matters most. His OPS might be almost equal to others but look at the stats with runners on. If you want to credit all of his RBI to the opportunities he gets batting 4th and 5th you might wanna realize that Bruce has more AB with runners on, Gomes also only has a few more AB than stubbs. We need his bat in clutch situations.

OPS With runners on;

Gomes .871
Bruce .670
Stubbs .621

But to the point of thread I definitely feel like heisey putting stubbs on bench was right move at this time. Give Bruce a little while longer to come along, but I do not see Gomes deserving to be sat anytime soon especially as the situations get more and more meaningful

All this stat shows is that Gomes basically doesn't care about getting on base and playing an all around team game. If he is OPS at .871 in the most pressure packed situations why can't he do it with nobody on base? When Gomes leads off an inning you know we're unlikely to score. There is no point in trying to hit a homer every time you come up with the bases empty. If he treated every at bat like he needed to come up with a big hit he would be a much better all around hitter, and the team would not have to suffer through endless pop ups on the first pitch.

Tampa Red
08-07-2010, 06:54 AM
Gomes is what he is (and longterm he is not as good as Bruce or Stubbs).

That said, Stubbs has far more to gain by spending a couple of weeks on the bench or in AAA. You could say the same thing about Bruce.

Heisey and Dickerson should be playing every day right now for the Reds. I have no problems with Gomes getting the remaining OF AB's if it means Stubbs and/or Bruce get a chance to get their head straight.

BlastFurnace
08-07-2010, 09:04 AM
How bout we bring up Jay Bruce in this discussion. If there is a weak spot in the lineup, it is Bruce. 41 RBI's after 100+ games....for an outfielder! Bruce might be the most overrated Red that I can remember.

Krawhitham
08-07-2010, 11:19 AM
What Heisey has to get 2 hits a game to keep his job?


Stubbs back in today

Trace's Daddy
08-07-2010, 07:17 PM
Let's give Bruce some bench time - it seems to have worked so far for Stubbs. Put Heisey in right please, Dust.

GIDP
08-07-2010, 07:36 PM
I think you guys saw how important defense was today. Laynce Nix basically saved 2 runs by being a good defender.

sivman17
08-07-2010, 07:41 PM
I think you guys saw how important defense was today. Laynce Nix basically saved 2 runs by being a good defender.

You could say the same thing about Janish. Janish played very solid D today.. the diving stop up the middle, the popup to short LF behind third base. Both plays I'm not sure if OCab would've made.

GIDP
08-07-2010, 07:44 PM
You could say the same thing about Janish. Janish played very solid D today.. the diving stop up the middle, the popup to short LF behind third base. Both plays I'm not sure if OCab would've made.

Yea defense has returned to baseball in a big way.

mikemo14
08-21-2010, 08:39 PM
Who did Chris Heisey piss off. He was about to steal the CF job and now never gets to play at all. He may need to go to Louisville when cabrera comes off the DL just to get his stroke back. You cant knock Dusty as whatever he trys works night after night, but Heisey deserves to play.

Vottomatic
08-21-2010, 09:32 PM
He's our best OFer, IMHO.

takealeake
08-21-2010, 09:35 PM
Dusty benched him to basically set him up to get demoted when Cabrera gets called up. That's the truth.

Old NDN
08-21-2010, 09:42 PM
He's our best OFer, IMHO.

I agree. I can think of a couple other OFs who should go before him.

knoonan991
08-21-2010, 10:22 PM
Dusty benched him to basically set him up to get demoted when Cabrera gets called up. That's the truth.

Ok that's just laughable, Dusty is playing what he feels to be the best lineup on any given night. There is no way he's setting up Heisey like that.

NeilHamburger
08-21-2010, 10:40 PM
There is absoluty no reason for Gomes or Stubbs to be getting starts over Heisey right now. Hell, I think both Edmonds and Heisey should be in the lineup tonight.

Roush's socks
08-21-2010, 10:51 PM
I'm not sure why Heisey is out either. I can see playing Gomes because he has hit in the clutch all year and he is a proven hitter to some degree. But I thought Heisey outplayed Stubbs in his limited time, both at the plate and even in the field. Stubbs has great potential as a defender, but right now he still has some weaknesses. If one of Stubbs or Heisey hit LH that would be great.

bagz
08-21-2010, 10:55 PM
I wish he was our starting left fielder.

rolenmvp
08-21-2010, 11:45 PM
I do too. gomes is pathetic. gomes just needs to quit.

mu4103
08-22-2010, 02:51 AM
I don't think Heisey will be sent to the minors, (wouldn't that mean his is ineligible for post-season play) he has done too much off of the bench. Plus Heisey is one of the few guys who can play every OF position well. He is also taking balls in the IF. Edmonds could play every position I guess. All the same - I don't think he will go down.

realistic
08-22-2010, 02:37 PM
I do too. gomes is pathetic. gomes just needs to quit.


id not go that far, but no way he should be playing over heisey right now. yet hes batting 5th? whats that about. i like Gomes, i wish hed start clickin again but right now hes a liability in the field and at the plate.

mu4103
08-22-2010, 03:16 PM
id not go that far, but no way he should be playing over heisey right now. yet hes batting 5th? whats that about. i like Gomes, i wish hed start clickin again but right now hes a liability in the field and at the plate.

I have not watched Gomes too much prior to last night. But he really looked pitiful at the plate. I wasn't very impressed. He always had lots of movement in his swing which I thought would lead to power. He is starting today because of the lefty. I expect Nix or Edmonds to take his place vs. righties.

malcontent
08-22-2010, 03:28 PM
I expect Nix or Edmonds to take his place vs. righties.
A rational individual would start Nix or Edmonds or Heisey against RHP (over Gomes) at this point.

So don't expect that to happen.

BTW, I think the last time Edmonds saw any PT in LF was back in 1994 with the Angels. I dunno why he hasn't played the position more, at least late in his career.