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Vottomatic
08-07-2010, 05:19 AM
I know we're in the hunt this year, and I'm excited about it. But I also want to be in the hunt for years to come.

I've read some speculation on the Sun Deck and more on the Minor Leagues forum about Votto possibly moving to LF next year to accomodate Yonder Alonso, who after an atrocious start probably due to coming back from injury, has turned it on in a huge way the last month+. Could Alonso be the quality bat that could fit the 5-hole behind Rolen and maybe bat 4th when Rolen sits? If Alonso could hit around .300 with some modest power, it would be a deadly middle order.

I've also made up my mind and I prefer Heisey over Stubbs in CF. I also love the idea of batting Heisey second in the order. He bunts often, has decent speed, and does all the little things.

So here's my adjustments for next year so far:

2B Phillips
CF Heisey
LF Votto
3B Rolen
1B Alonso
RF Bruce
SS OCab/Janish
C Hanigan/Hernandez

I'm fine with an OCab/Janish situation. I'd like to see Janish backup 2B and 3B more often. I think his bat is good enough to play more. And defensively he's topnotch. I'm not a big OCab fan, but I read repeatedly about his leadership impact on the team, so I give in.

Pitching:
Let Harang walk and give him the $2M buyout.
Pick up Arroyo's option. I hope the Reds don't go the money saving route in regards to this decision and just buy him out. He has probably put up his best season ever this year and continues to go 210+ IP every year it seems. His WHIP and hits per innings pitched are very good this year. And he spares our bullpen most of the time.
The other 4 spots are Cueto, Volquez, Leake, and Wood's to lose.
I'm fully expecting and hoping they trade Bailey in the offseason. The problem will arise in the '12 season when they don't re-sign Arroyo and then we need another quality starting pitcher in the rotation. This might play into keeping Bailey and buying out Arroyo after this season. But I hope not. I'd rather re-sign Arroyo for '12 and beyond. But the $$$ might not be there with so many young guys coming due in arbitration.
Poor Maloney. He seems destined to be a triple A insurance policy for when our major league starters go down with injury. It just doesn't seem fair to him.
I wish we could trade/unload Cordero. You never know 'til you get there, but Logan Ondrusek is looking like the closer of the future that Todd Coffey and Nick Masset were never able to secure.
The acquisitions of Isringhausen and Springer make me wonder if Walt won't actively pursue salary relief in the offseason in the form of trading Cordero and sending some money along to split the last year of salary. If the Reds sent like $4M or a little more along with him in trade, I think some bigger market team in need of a proven closer would take him. Just my $.02 cents.

My projected '11 team:
OFers: Votto, Heisey, Bruce, Dickerson, Gomes - 5 players
Catchers: Hanigan, Hernandez, Miller (Minors) - 2 players
1B: Alonso, backups Votto - 1 player
2B: Phillips, backups Janish - 2 players
SS: OCab, Janish - 1 player
3B: Rolen, backup Francisco - 2 players
13 total position players. I think Rolen will need more time off next year and Francisco has nothing left to prove in the minors and gives us a LHed power bat who can spell Rolen for about 40+ games or PH off the bench.

12 pitchers:
SP - Arroyo
SP - Cueto
SP - Volquez
SP - Leake
SP - Wood

CL - Ondrusek
RP - Rhodes
RP - Masset
RP - Smith
RP - Bray
RP - Springer or other
RP - Isringhausen or other

Possibly use free agency to bolster the bullpen depending on how Springer and Isringhausen do the rest of this season. Also, Jose Arrendondo should be back recovering from TJ surgery. He was very dominant before his injury.

It sucks letting Cairo go after such a productive season he's had for us this year.

ian_madden
08-07-2010, 06:12 AM
Chapman? I'm told he is pretty good.

mlh1981
08-07-2010, 07:30 AM
Yeah, Chapman has to be in that equation somewhere. Those guys will just have to push themselves, as there is nothing wrong with a little "friendly competition."

This is certainly a far cry from when we were counting on the likes of Kyle Lohse, Eric Milton, and Jimmy Haynes.......

Kiko
08-07-2010, 09:33 AM
Possibly the reigning MVP moving to a new position to allow a rookie to play first? I'll be surprised if Votto moves to LF. Not that Votto wouldn't do it but would you ask him to do that for a guy who hasn't even had a major league AB? I would have to value Alonso more as a player than Votto to do that and I don't.

redsfan_12
08-07-2010, 10:21 AM
Agreed. Put Alonso in Left. If he can't do it, find someone who can. Votto needs to stay at 1st IMO

vottofan4life
08-07-2010, 10:24 AM
I'll predict 3 things for next season:

1. Coco Cordero will not be the closer of this team/ He'll be shipped off to either Minnesota, Philadelphia, Tampa Bay, Chicago White Sox, Atlanta, Seattle, or Texas.. Our future closer might already be on the team in Ondrusek or I can see us going after Papelbon in a blockbuster trade maybe getting Ellsbury and Lowrie too.

2. Joey Votto is and will be our First Baseman.

3. Half these players are gonna be free agents like Hernandez, Springer, Izzy, Cabrera, Arroyo, Rhodes and the only ones i'd consider bringing back is Cabrera but not as a starter, Arroyo but we'd have to do the buyout thing and sign him to a different deal, and Rhodes because he has been the real heart of the bullpen not Cordero.

One last prediction just because I can.---Devin Mesoraco Starting Catcher on Opening Day for the Cincinnati Reds

bshall2105
08-07-2010, 01:18 PM
Possibly the reigning MVP moving to a new position to allow a rookie to play first? I'll be surprised if Votto moves to LF. Not that Votto wouldn't do it but would you ask him to do that for a guy who hasn't even had a major league AB? I would have to value Alonso more as a player than Votto to do that and I don't.

Why? If you want to get you're best lineup on the field something has to give. Votto is an MVP canidate for his bat, not his glove. If he was Gold Glove caliber I would understand not wanting to move him, but he's just an average first baseman. Votto in left and Alonso at first is much better than Alonso in left and Votto at first.

huber14
08-07-2010, 02:13 PM
One last prediction just because I can.---Devin Mesoraco Starting Catcher on Opening Day for the Cincinnati Reds

What year? Definitely not next year

Vottomatic
08-07-2010, 02:44 PM
I'll predict 3 things for next season:

1. Coco Cordero will not be the closer of this team/ He'll be shipped off to either Minnesota, Philadelphia, Tampa Bay, Chicago White Sox, Atlanta, Seattle, or Texas.. Our future closer might already be on the team in Ondrusek or I can see us going after Papelbon in a blockbuster trade maybe getting Ellsbury and Lowrie too.

I don't think they trade for any closer. I believe Reds management will do Closer by committee, if Ondrusek doesn't work out, until they're forced to trade for a true closer.



2. Joey Votto is and will be our First Baseman.

Obviously my username says it all about how I feel about Votto. But I'd rather have Votto in LF than Alonso. I'm not a big Alonso fan. It bugs me that defensively, he really can only play 1B. Votto is more athletic and more versatile than Alonso. So I'd feel far more comfortable with Joey moving to LF than moving Alonso. But if Alonso's bat is the real deal and can help this team, get him in the lineup at his most comfortable position. One side note: Votto wouldn't be going up against Pujols for All Star votes and would stand a far better chance of getting voted in by playing LF.



3. Half these players are gonna be free agents like Hernandez, Springer, Izzy, Cabrera, Arroyo, Rhodes and the only ones i'd consider bringing back is Cabrera but not as a starter, Arroyo but we'd have to do the buyout thing and sign him to a different deal, and Rhodes because he has been the real heart of the bullpen not Cordero.

The Reds have a team option on Arroyo for next year at the same price. They will certainly exercise it unless they are just in a definite cost cutting mode, which will upset me if they do not exercise it for $$$ reasons.

The Reds also have a team option on Hernandez for '11. They will certainly exercise that option for one more year. Hernandez, I think, will turn 36 during the '11 season. I'm sure management is hoping Mesoraco will be ready for the majors to split time with Hanigan in '12.

Cabrera is also signed for '11.

Rhodes will be a FA, but I think everyone is certainly hoping he'll be back. This town loves him.



One last prediction just because I can.---Devin Mesoraco Starting Catcher on Opening Day for the Cincinnati Reds

I think he's definitely ATLEAST another season away. He's not even in triple A yet. That's why they signed Hernandez through '11.

One last note: I did forget about Chapman in the bullpen next season. But that's why I said "or other" on Isringhausen and Springer. Cut me some slack........my thread starting post was at 3 a.m........ ;)

cinreds21
08-07-2010, 03:42 PM
If Hanigan keeps it up he may be the opening day starter with Mes in the wings. He won't be the starter come April. He's had a great season and is in the running for Reds minor league player of the year but he is still at least a half a season away.

Kiko
08-07-2010, 05:33 PM
Why? If you want to get you're best lineup on the field something has to give. Votto is an MVP canidate for his bat, not his glove. If he was Gold Glove caliber I would understand not wanting to move him, but he's just an average first baseman. Votto in left and Alonso at first is much better than Alonso in left and Votto at first.

Votto has had 3 full seasons in the Majors at 1B and has improved his defense every year. The Reds need to sign Votto to a long term contract and keep him at first. Jocketty is not going to ask him to move to LF for an unproven rookie. It is absurd. Neither one is suited for LF, therefore the Reds should trade Alonso for the best player they can get that is not a first baseman.

sivman17
08-07-2010, 05:39 PM
Votto has had 3 full seasons in the Majors at 1B and has improved his defense every year. The Reds need to sign Votto to a long term contract and keep him at first. Jocketty is not going to ask him to move to LF for an unproven rookie. It is absurd. Neither one is suited for LF, therefore the Reds should trade Alonso for the best player they can get that is not a first baseman.

Agreed. I don't see any chance of him moving to LF. It's unfair to him. He is possibly the MVP of the league. Why would we want to mess with his game?

bshall2105
08-07-2010, 05:42 PM
Agreed. I don't see any chance of him moving to LF. It's unfair to him. He is possibly the MVP of the league. Why would we want to mess with his game?

How does moving him to left affect his hitting? It's not unfair to him if he agrees to do it. If he wants the best lineup on the field next year moving to left could be an option.

sivman17
08-07-2010, 05:53 PM
How does moving him to left affect his hitting? It's not unfair to him if he agrees to do it. If he wants the best lineup on the field next year moving to left could be an option.

I don't know if it would affect his hitting, but I don't think you ask him to move to LF. Votto has really improved his fielding in the last couple years and now he would have to start over from scratch in LF.

Could you imagine the Cards even considering asking Pujols to move to LF? It would never happen. Votto is our Pujols. We don't tell him what to do. We let him do what he wants.

Vottomatic
08-07-2010, 05:56 PM
I don't know if it would affect his hitting, but I don't think you ask him to move to LF. Votto has really improved his fielding in the last couple years and now he would have to start over from scratch in LF.

Could you imagine the Cards even considering asking Pujols to move to LF? It would never happen. Votto is our Pujols. We don't tell him what to do. We let him do what he wants.

You're kidding right?

Votto is more athletic than Pujols. Pujols is a big man. Votto isn't.

Weird analysis by you.

sivman17
08-07-2010, 06:01 PM
You're kidding right?

Votto is more athletic than Pujols. Pujols is a big man. Votto isn't.

Weird analysis by you.


Votto has made himself into a very good 1B. I'm not saying he wouldn't do well in LF, but I don't think it's fair to move him to LF just because this new guy they drafted is slow and fat and unathletic. That's all I'm saying.

Vottomatic
08-07-2010, 06:11 PM
I'd trade Bruce, Stubbs, and Bailey in the offseason, in a heartbeat, to Pitt for McCutcheon.

I'd bring up Alonso to play 1B. Stick McCutcheon in CF. Heisey in RF. Votto in LF.

My lineup would look like the following:
Pos--Player------Current Stats
CF McCutcheon - 21 SB's, .359 OBP, .281 BA, .794 OPS (better than both Stubbs and Bruce), 59 runs scored
2B Phillips - 13 SB's, .345 OBP, .290 BA, .810 OPS, 79 runs scored
LF Votto - MVP stats
3B Rolen
1B Alonso
RF Heisey
SS Cabrera/Janish
C Hanigan/Hernandez

That team would rake offensively. McCutcheon would finally fix the weakest link of our offense, which is OBP in the first 2 hitters. Phillips has done a tremendous job. But I think he's more suited to the 2-hole.

bshall2105
08-07-2010, 07:49 PM
Votto has made himself into a very good 1B. I'm not saying he wouldn't do well in LF, but I don't think it's fair to move him to LF just because this new guy they drafted is slow and fat and unathletic. That's all I'm saying.

But if the fat unathletic slow guy can hit the cover off of the ball and would greatly improve our lineup then it's completely fair.

webbbj
08-08-2010, 01:14 AM
im not 100% sure but didnt pujols start his career in the outfield and later moved to 1B? i dunno about moving votto id rather see alonso make the needed accomodations or trade him for an outfield bat. joey votto just looks like a 1Bman, it be hard to picture him in LF.

Vottomatic
08-08-2010, 04:13 AM
im not 100% sure but didnt pujols start his career in the outfield and later moved to 1B? i dunno about moving votto id rather see alonso make the needed accomodations or trade him for an outfield bat. joey votto just looks like a 1Bman, it be hard to picture him in LF.

In 2001, when he first came up, Pujols played 55 games at 3B (10 errors), 78 games split equally between playing RF and LF, and 43 games at 1B.

In 2002, he played 117 games in LF, 1 in RF, played SS for 2 innings in 1 game, played 3B for 41 games, and 1B for only 21 games. Obviously he changed positions during some of those games.

In 2003, Pujols played 113 games in LF, and 62 games at 1B. Again, he obviously changed position during the game.

Since 2004, he has played exclusively at 1B, except for playing 3 innings in one game at 2B, in 2008.

Both Votto and Pujols are listed as 6'-3", 230 lbs now. That surprises me a bit. Pujols looks much bigger than Joey to me.

I still think Joey seems athletic enough and young enough to play LF. And if I had to choose between Alonso or Votto playing LF, I'd choose Votto because I think he'd be better at it.

This is all based on Alonso eventually and continually tearing up triple A pitching and being added to the major league lineup. It could all be a moot point if he doesn't tear up triple A and gets traded.

bagz
08-08-2010, 06:26 AM
I think if Alonso continues to do well in AAA for the rest of this year and in spring training next year the Reds will ask Votto how he feels about possibly moving to the outfield. I'm sure behind closed doors this conversation has started to some degree. Being the team player and good guy that he is I don't think he would object to taking spring training practice next year in left field. It's a big thing to ask a player who is probably the 2010 NL MVP. It's early enough in his career where he can make the switch. It's a practice that happens in sports in general on all sorts of teams and has happened on this team before. Pete Rose moved positions several times to accomodate up and coming players. I don't want the Reds to trade Alonso. We need his productive bat next year and beyond.

Vottomatic
08-08-2010, 03:53 PM
I think if Alonso continues to do well in AAA for the rest of this year and in spring training next year the Reds will ask Votto how he feels about possibly moving to the outfield. I'm sure behind closed doors this conversation has started to some degree. Being the team player and good guy that he is I don't think he would object to taking spring training practice next year in left field. It's a big thing to ask a player who is probably the 2010 NL MVP. It's early enough in his career where he can make the switch. It's a practice that happens in sports in general on all sorts of teams and has happened on this team before. Pete Rose moved positions several times to accomodate up and coming players. I don't want the Reds to trade Alonso. We need his productive bat next year and beyond.

Good post, especially about Pete Rose changing position multiple multiple times.

Eric the Red
08-08-2010, 05:51 PM
I think if Alonso continues to do well in AAA for the rest of this year and in spring training next year the Reds will ask Votto how he feels about possibly moving to the outfield. I'm sure behind closed doors this conversation has started to some degree. Being the team player and good guy that he is I don't think he would object to taking spring training practice next year in left field. It's a big thing to ask a player who is probably the 2010 NL MVP. It's early enough in his career where he can make the switch. It's a practice that happens in sports in general on all sorts of teams and has happened on this team before. Pete Rose moved positions several times to accomodate up and coming players. I don't want the Reds to trade Alonso. We need his productive bat next year and beyond.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The Cincinnati Reds need a 1st round pick (Alonso in this case) to be a very productive player for the six years they are under team control for the organization to have any sustained success. To me, Alonso has shown signs of being an outstanding hitter. He has to get a chance with this organization.

Vottomatic
08-08-2010, 06:42 PM
I think you hit the nail on the head. The Cincinnati Reds need a 1st round pick (Alonso in this case) to be a very productive player for the six years they are under team control for the organization to have any sustained success. To me, Alonso has shown signs of being an outstanding hitter. He has to get a chance with this organization.

Stubbs and Bailey have been given a long rope, that's for sure. No reason Alonso won't. They invest alot of $$$ in these first round picks anymore.

Vottomatic
08-15-2010, 09:34 PM
The Reds need a table-setter and an ace pitcher, and they can win it all next year.

mu4103
08-15-2010, 09:54 PM
I'd trade Bruce, Stubbs, and Bailey in the offseason, in a heartbeat, to Pitt for McCutcheon.

I'd bring up Alonso to play 1B. Stick McCutcheon in CF. Heisey in RF. Votto in LF.

My lineup would look like the following:
Pos--Player------Current Stats
CF McCutcheon - 21 SB's, .359 OBP, .281 BA, .794 OPS (better than both Stubbs and Bruce), 59 runs scored
2B Phillips - 13 SB's, .345 OBP, .290 BA, .810 OPS, 79 runs scored
LF Votto - MVP stats
3B Rolen
1B Alonso
RF Heisey
SS Cabrera/Janish
C Hanigan/Hernandez

That team would rake offensively. McCutcheon would finally fix the weakest link of our offense, which is OBP in the first 2 hitters. Phillips has done a tremendous job. But I think he's more suited to the 2-hole.

The Pirates would be fools to part with McCutcheon. Then again they are the Pitttsburgh Pirates. However, you must understand that the Pirates have a two-tong approach to all trades:

1. The trade must mean spending less money.
2. The trade must make their team worse.

All I am saying is that the Reds might have to eat some money. That is the only thing holding this trade back.

redsfan_12
08-15-2010, 09:57 PM
Votto- Alonso- Heisey. I like that 3-4-5 lineup in the up and coming years.

texasdave
08-15-2010, 10:13 PM
I wouldn't trade Jay Bruce straight up for McCutcheon.

Vottomatic
08-15-2010, 10:17 PM
The Pirates would be fools to part with McCutcheon. Then again they are the Pitttsburgh Pirates. However, you must understand that the Pirates have a two-tong approach to all trades:

1. The trade must mean spending less money.
2. The trade must make their team worse.

All I am saying is that the Reds might have to eat some money. That is the only thing holding this trade back.

I'm offering them 3 major league players, all former #1 picks, that are either making the minimum or about ready for there first arbitration hearing (Bailey and Bruce) for one major league player who is a former #1 pick.

I think they'd be foolish not to do that trade. And I'm not crazy about doing it. I think it's way too much, frankly. I'm surprised I offered it.

But I'm gung ho about McCutcheon, and I think Alonso will be up here next year at 1B. So move Votto to LF, play Heisey in RF, and put either McCutcheon or Heisey in CF. Personally, I think Heisey > Bruce. And I definitely think a leadoff man of McCutcheon's caliber would put this team offensively over the top.

I also think Phillips (salary increase to #11M in '11) could be traded in the offseason. This means a leadoff tandem of McCutcheon and then Heisey would be needed to replace BP.

All speculation, but I definitely expect alot of roster tweaking in the offseason.

Vottomatic
08-15-2010, 10:18 PM
I wouldn't trade Jay Bruce straight up for McCutcheon.

I would in a heartbeat.

Bruce, Stubbs, Heisey are all the same player essentially, and none of them are leadoff caliber, which is something the Reds lack. They need tablesetters with high OBP and the ability to steal bases.

lidspinner
08-15-2010, 10:37 PM
I'll play along....NO WAY IN HECK does Joey Votto move to left to accomodate Yonder Alonso. Not saying Joey wouldnt do it, just saying that the front office would never ask him to do it....he is proving that he can be a gold glove at 1st base and a legitimate triple crown threat fro years to come....he is essentially Albert, you do not move those types of guys from IF to OF unless your doing it to allow another STUD to take that spot....Yonder has not taken 1 swing against the Chris Carpenters, Roy Halladays, Dan Hanrens and the Zambrono's of MLB.....I blame this situation on the front office for drafting Yonder when they knew this was all he could do.

So here is how I see it played out in the winter meetings

Reds buy out Aaron Harang and go with a rotation of

Edinson
Cueto
Leake
Wood
Bronson

with Chapman giving the team depth in the starting lineup for spot starts and helping the pen when in need....I see Nick Masset and Logan Ondrusek as the 7th and 8th inning guys....Coco, well I am not sure here but he is paid thru next year so we are going to have to deal with him. Will Dusty do anything about it? probably not

Here is where my fantasy team gets crazy.....We trade Homer Bailey, Drew Stubbs, Yonder and OCab to the Tampa Rays........drumroll please........for Carl Crawford.....I think CC has 1 more year left on his contract so we could snatch him this winter then sign him for 5 year

BOOM, there is our fix in the OF....and If we start showing up at the gates, and make the playoffs this year, no reason our payroll does not go up to 90mill......Sure, we bite the bullet till Coco comes off the books, but with that payroll we should be able to afford Carl and ink Joey to a long term deal. No way Tampa keeps Crawford. Stubbs could play LF for Tampa, they get their leader at SS, Yonder can play 1st cheap and Homer gives them a solid back of the rotation guy that comes somewhat cheap....That gives us a SOLID lineup and this means the only thing we are lacking for a World Series run would be a solid true ace pitcher.....maybe that is one of our guys now?

Here is the lineup:

Brandon Phillips 2nd base (his last year on the team..to expensive after)
Carl Crawford LF
Joey Votto 1st (long term contract signed during ST)
Scott Rolen 3rd (probably his last year as well...age)
Chris Heisey CF
Jay Bruce RF
Paul Janish SS (this is our biggest weakness)
Hanny....or Devin...(another weakness....but its not horrible)

I see no reason this team cannot be put together for 90 mill plus or minus a few million....Basically we build our team around Joey and Carl and young pitching....if this pitching staff could get us a few good years of cheap winning baseball where we start bringing in sell outs every weekend then I think we can sustain a good payroll and not lose money. Crawford is getting long in the tooth but I think he could give us 5 solid years of all star production hitting in front of Joey.

Vottomatic
08-16-2010, 12:40 AM
My wish:

1. Trade Stubbs and Bailey to Pittsburgh for McCutcheon. We trade 2 major league former #1's for a 1 major league former #1. They get a starter and a CFer, we get a CFEr and finally a legit leadoff man.

2. Bring up Alonso to play 1B. Move Votto to LF. Pujols started the first 3 years of his career in the OF, namely LF........no reason Joey can't do it. And he's my favorite player. It gets another legit bat into the lineup.

3. Re-sign Arroyo to be an innings eater veteran.

4. Trade Cordero straight up to the Mets for Carlos Beltran. Both players are in the doghouse and not getting it done. New scenery for both might do them well. But Beltran is only going to be 33 years old and has a reason for his slump........recovering from injury. If healthy, he gives you additional protection in the batting order and very good defense.

CF McCutcheon - true leadoff hitter
2B Phillips
LF Votto
RF Beltran (if healthy and back to normal), other wise Bruce or Heisey in a different place
3B Rolen/Francisco
1B Alonso
SS OCab/Janish
C Hernandez/Hanigan

Keep Bruce around because Beltran becomes a FA after next season. Might catch lightning in a bottle though. Also Bruce is insurance in case there's an injury. Gives good OF depth. Cairo, Janish and Francisco are backup IF's. Heisey is 5th OFer.

SP - Arroyo
SP - Cueto
SP - Volquez
SP - Leake
SP - Wood

RP - Ondrusek
RP - Masset
RP - Smith
RP - Rhodes (LH)
RP - Bray (LH)
RP - Chapman (LH)
RP - Joseph (LH)

If they can make a trade for a #1 starter, do it in a heartbeat.

Kiss the Baby00
08-16-2010, 01:57 AM
My wish:

1. Trade Stubbs and Bailey to Pittsburgh for McCutcheon. We trade 2 major league former #1's for a 1 major league former #1. They get a starter and a CFer, we get a CFEr and finally a legit leadoff man.

2. Bring up Alonso to play 1B. Move Votto to LF. Pujols started the first 3 years of his career in the OF, namely LF........no reason Joey can't do it. And he's my favorite player. It gets another legit bat into the lineup.

3. Re-sign Arroyo to be an innings eater veteran.

4. Trade Cordero straight up to the Mets for Carlos Beltran. Both players are in the doghouse and not getting it done. New scenery for both might do them well. But Beltran is only going to be 33 years old and has a reason for his slump........recovering from injury. If healthy, he gives you additional protection in the batting order and very good defense.

CF McCutcheon - true leadoff hitter
2B Phillips
LF Votto
RF Beltran (if healthy and back to normal), other wise Bruce or Heisey in a different place
3B Rolen/Francisco
1B Alonso
SS OCab/Janish
C Hernandez/Hanigan

Keep Bruce around because Beltran becomes a FA after next season. Might catch lightning in a bottle though. Also Bruce is insurance in case there's an injury. Gives good OF depth. Cairo, Janish and Francisco are backup IF's. Heisey is 5th OFer.

SP - Arroyo
SP - Cueto
SP - Volquez
SP - Leake
SP - Wood

RP - Ondrusek
RP - Masset
RP - Smith
RP - Rhodes (LH)
RP - Bray (LH)
RP - Chapman (LH)
RP - Joseph (LH)

If they can make a trade for a #1 starter, do it in a heartbeat.


they have K rod, and pay him roughly 12 mill a year. why would they want to take on another closer who is worse?

Kingspoint
08-16-2010, 04:16 AM
I'll stick with what I posted in December last year:

2010 Major League Club:

C Hernandez ($3M)
1B Votto (est $.48M)
2B Phillips ($6.75M)
3B Rolen ($7.67M)
SS Janish (est $.4M) or Free Agent
LF Dickerson (est $.44M)
CF Stubbs (est $.44M)
RF Bruce (est $.45M)
UI Sutton (est $.44M)
UO Heisey (est $.4M)

Mgr Baker ($3.5M)
GM Jockety (Est $1.5M)

---Alonso gets traded the 10-11 Winter for Starting Pitching as there's no place to play all of the people that should be playing. If something strange happens to Votto or Alonso, then Alonso doesn't get traded.

---Phillips gets traded between July 1st 2010 and December 15th 2010 for Starting Pitching

2011 Major League Club:

C Hanigan (est $.48M)
1B Votto (est $3M)
2B Valaika (est $.48M)
3B Rolen ($8.17M)
SS Cozart (est $.4M)
LF Stubbs (est $.48M)
CF Heisey (est $.44M)
RF Bruce (est $5M)
UI Francisco (est $.5M)
UO Frazier (est $.44M)

Mgr Sweet ($.8M)
GM Jockety (Est $1.5M)

----Rolen is traded for minor leaguers the winter of 11-12, and REDS eat 2/3rd's of his salary of $8.17M

2012 Major League Club:

C Hanigan (est $.53M)
1B Votto (est $5M)
2B Valaika (est $.53M)
3B Francisco (est $.48M)
SS Cozart (est $.44M)
LF Stubbs (est $.6M)
CF Heisey (est $.5M)
RF Bruce (est $3M)
UI Soto (est $.4M)
UO Frazier (est $.44M)

Mgr Sweet ($1M)
GM Jockety (Est $1.5M)

Other than Shortstop, I see no need to add any position players over the next 3 seasons. Mesoraco takes over as the Starting Catcher in 2013.

That 2011 and 2012 lineups are courtesy of Dan O'Brien and Wayne Krivsky and is loaded with talented players near the peaks of their career (Ages 25-30), while 1 or two years away from either Free Agency or Arbitration. The 2012 squad has a lot of experience on it.

I do think our Starting Pitching prospects throughout our organization is extremely weak and thin (another reason the Stewart/Roenicke for Rolen trade was illogical). I hope Alonso and Phillips are both traded for Starting Pitching. Hopefully, we can ride Cueto, Volquez and Wood for through 2015. But, that's too risky. We need again that much talent to get us through 2015, as two or three of the six (Wood, Cueto, Volquez and 3 others yet to be determined, but hopefully 2 will be obtained for Phillips, Alonso and Harang/Arroyo) will fail or get seriously injured. It would be a blessing if Buck or Thompson got healthy after their repeated setbacks and could pitch for the Major League club in 2011 and/or 2012.

Kingspoint
08-16-2010, 04:19 AM
I was wrong about the Stewart/Roenicke for Rolen trade.

I didn't know Mike Leake would be ready so soon.

It now looks like Mesoraco could take over for Hanigan as the main starter in 2012 instead of 2013.

I didn't then see Arroyo or Harang sticking around for 2011, but it's possible now that Arroyo could be here for 2011 (and that would be a good thing). [2011: $11 million club option w/$2 million buyout (option can increase to $13 million)]

It's not looking now like Soto will be that UI in 2012 as plenty of others have stepped up and passed him and are gearing to take over that position. Janish may hold onto that spot through 2012, while waiting for any number of players to take over in 2013 (Hamilton, Arias, Henry Rodriguez, Torreyes, etc.)

By 2012, Hanigan (1000), Votto (2200), Stubbs (1300) and Bruce (2000) will all have over 1000 PA's in their Major League Career, and be established by then. They'll be the Veterans. Even Janish and Heisy will have about 800 PA's by the start of the 2012 season, assuming Janish is a backup next season and Heisey is a full-time starter.

lidspinner
08-16-2010, 06:37 AM
great ideas kingspoint....great. I would love to see our farm system rotate like a revolving door to the majors.....in a perfect world that is what will happen, but just as you said 3 out of the 6 starting pitchers will get injured or fail, so will the position players that appear to be players on the MLB roster right now. Cincy is a area that has proven will follow their baseball team, so with gate fees I see us being able to add payroll to 90 million, and dare I say we touch the 100mill mark in 3 years? who knows, start selling out every weekend series and hit 30k for weeknight games and its not out of the question......so if that happens, then why not add another great bat plus GG defense ala Carl Crawford and look into grabbing an ace at the deadline in 2011 or winter of 2011-12? Seems to me that might be the best option for this team to compete on a year in, year out basis...........

This is such great conversation, in years past we would never be talking about so many youngsters headed up to the show, and we never would be talking about adding payroll to be able to keep a Votto, and add another true player to go along with another ace pitcher....This team is built to stay at the top for another 5-7 years......if we can keep making good decisions with the farm system, then this team could be great for the foreseeable future.

Vottomatic
08-16-2010, 08:42 AM
My post wasn't what I think WILL HAPPEN. It's what I wish WOULD HAPPEN.

This club is basically a leadoff man and #1 starter away from being SERIOUS contenders. Right now, they'll be happy to make the postseason.

And I really don't like Valaika as our 2B. Our offense will take a serious hit with him playing 2B. He's nothing but a singles hitter. Jeff Keppinger-lite.

lidspinner
08-16-2010, 10:12 AM
Votto.....do you see the Reds making a run at Cliff Lee this offseason? With Harang dropping off the books, I can surely see Walt and Bob adding a few million to what Aaron made and grabbing Cliff Lee. We are loaded at pitching so spending that money on Cliff Lee would allow us to trade one of our younger stud pitchers for a leadoff guy or a solid LF guy. What say you?

The Reds could really add to this team and only up payroll by 10 million. I know thats alot but not for a team that should be a staple contender for the next 3-6 years.

Kingspoint
08-16-2010, 03:09 PM
My post wasn't what I think WILL HAPPEN. It's what I wish WOULD HAPPEN.

This club is basically a leadoff man and #1 starter away from being SERIOUS contenders. Right now, they'll be happy to make the postseason.

And I really don't like Valaika as our 2B. Our offense will take a serious hit with him playing 2B. He's nothing but a singles hitter. Jeff Keppinger-lite.

Valaika was voted as the best 2nd Base glove in the International League this year. So, you have Gold Glove Defense at 2nd Base along with a .280+ Average. If you can't use that to your advantage, then the organization can't construct a lineup or a baseball team and you've got other starters in other positions miscast.

mckbearcat48
08-16-2010, 03:11 PM
Who is next in line for the Reds to close games? Y'all are set up well for the future.

BTW...if the Reds don't want Arroyo, there's a market for a competitor who takes the ball every fifth day and gives his team a chance to win. I bet they resign him, even if it's a little over market value.

Vottomatic
08-16-2010, 05:15 PM
Valaika was voted as the best 2nd Base glove in the International League this year. So, you have Gold Glove Defense at 2nd Base along with a .280+ Average. If you can't use that to your advantage, then the organization can't construct a lineup or a baseball team and you've got other starters in other positions miscast.

Not questioning his defense.

And minor league averages aren't very good indicators of major league hitting ability.

Vottomatic
08-16-2010, 05:16 PM
Votto.....do you see the Reds making a run at Cliff Lee this offseason? With Harang dropping off the books, I can surely see Walt and Bob adding a few million to what Aaron made and grabbing Cliff Lee. We are loaded at pitching so spending that money on Cliff Lee would allow us to trade one of our younger stud pitchers for a leadoff guy or a solid LF guy. What say you?

The Reds could really add to this team and only up payroll by 10 million. I know thats alot but not for a team that should be a staple contender for the next 3-6 years.

I hope so.

I actually see Walt and Bob going all out for a #1 starter. The problem I see is that most pitchers don't want to pitch in GABP. So they may have to overpay.

redsfan_12
08-16-2010, 06:59 PM
Who is next in line for the Reds to close games? Y'all are set up well for the future.

BTW...if the Reds don't want Arroyo, there's a market for a competitor who takes the ball every fifth day and gives his team a chance to win. I bet they resign him, even if it's a little over market value.

Some say Masset, some say Jordan Smith. I for one, would like to see Jordan Smith.

Kingspoint
08-16-2010, 11:09 PM
And minor league averages aren't very good indicators of major league hitting ability.

Sorry, but that's a stupid statement.

Valaika will hit well enough to be a starter on a winning team in the Majors.

MikeThierry
08-17-2010, 01:09 AM
Sorry, but that's a stupid statement.

Valaika will hit well enough to be a starter on a winning team in the Majors.

Actually, what Votto said is true. What someone does in the minors does not necessarily correlate to what they might do in the majors. Some minor league pitchers are working on specific pitches and it might have some impact on how hitters see said pitcher. For example, Shelby Miller (the Cards top prospect) has a fastball that is 100+ mph. However, one of the reasons why his numbers aren't the greatest in the world right now is because he is specifically working on his curve ball and other pitches in AA ball.

Vottomatic
08-17-2010, 10:16 AM
Sorry, but that's a stupid statement.

Valaika will hit well enough to be a starter on a winning team in the Majors.

Jay Bruce was supposed to be All-World. The next Larry Walker with power.

How's that panned out so far?:rolleyes:

And thanks for calling me stupid.

mu4103
08-17-2010, 07:06 PM
My wish:

1. Trade Stubbs and Bailey to Pittsburgh for McCutcheon. We trade 2 major league former #1's for a 1 major league former #1. They get a starter and a CFer, we get a CFEr and finally a legit leadoff man.

Again, McCutcheon is a proven major league player. Neither Stubbs nor Bailey have proven anything in he Major Leagues. Drew Stubbs is hitting .236 with a .301 OBP. Bailey has never had an ERA under 4.50. Why would somebody else want those players because they are considered prospects. McCutcheon on the other hand is a prospect who has proven himself. We don't want Stubbs or Bailey, why would the Pirates trade their best player for them hoping they pan out.

Vottomatic
08-17-2010, 07:19 PM
Again, McCutcheon is a proven major league player. Neither Stubbs nor Bailey have proven anything in he Major Leagues. Drew Stubbs is hitting .236 with a .301 OBP. Bailey has never had an ERA under 4.50. Why would somebody else want those players because they are considered prospects. McCutcheon on the other hand is a prospect who has proven himself. We don't want Stubbs or Bailey, why would the Pirates trade their best player for them hoping they pan out.

Last I checked, Bailey and Stubbs were starters on the 1st place Reds major league roster.

Sure, maybe you have to throw more in the deal, but unless he is completely untouchable, I'd target him.