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Tom Servo
08-07-2010, 04:04 PM
I can't take anymore man. I'm only 20. I shouldn't have to deal with this kind of stress!

redsfan1966
08-07-2010, 04:06 PM
I say either put Rhodes in the closing spot or bring Chapman into the role with his 103 mph heat....

The Voice of IH
08-07-2010, 04:06 PM
The team needs to move him out of the closer spot, but I don't want to throw him in the dumpster right now. I still feel that he can help the team as a 7 or 8 guy. but we can not rely on him as our "last chance"

*BaseClogger*
08-07-2010, 04:07 PM
He should be in middle relief for a little while. Let Masset close. Oh, and Chapman should already be in the Cincinnati pen. If we're gonna have relievers try to throw only fastballs by hitters, I'd rather have the LH 99 mph fastball than the RH 94 mph fastball...

membengal
08-07-2010, 04:07 PM
Yeah, I have been slow to think a change needs to be made, but you can't keep running a 1.50 WHIP guy into games where it is close and you need three outs. It's just non-sensical.

edabbs44
08-07-2010, 04:09 PM
Can't trade him with that contract.

Can't cut him..see above.

Can't keep him in the closer role right now.

Test his arm/shoulder. If he checks out, DL him for 15 or put him into 6th inning duties to see if it is mental. If not, DL him for the rest of the year and Walt will bust out the champagne for the decision being made for him.

HotCorner
08-07-2010, 04:10 PM
Move him into the 7th inning role. Promote either Masset or Ondrusek to closer.

SirFelixCat
08-07-2010, 04:11 PM
DL time. This will happen long before he loses his closing position or anything else, imo.

nate
08-07-2010, 04:11 PM
Phantom DL stint. I think he can be effective if they can "fix" him.

The problem is "fixing" him or if he can be "fixed."

I doubt they'll move him out of the closer spot, it's not Dusty's style.

RedsMan3203
08-07-2010, 04:11 PM
I'll take Masset, Ondrusek, Smith as the closers....

Dusty is taking baby steps on CoCo, but I think the damage has been done and they are moving foward.

membengal
08-07-2010, 04:14 PM
Thom and Chris on the post-game don't see a change at closer looming.

They must have stronger stomachs than a lot of us...

Hoosier Red
08-07-2010, 04:18 PM
Thom and Chris on the post-game don't see a change at closer looming.

They must have stronger stomachs than a lot of us...

That's a suits decision. Ratings are higher when you can't turn off a game after 8 innings with a 4-1 lead.
;)

alexad
08-07-2010, 04:19 PM
We can not afford to blow games. We are only 1/2 game up on the Cards. They are matching us win for win. The series with the Cards is huge. If Cordero can not hang with the closer role, get him out of there before it is too late.

Captain Hook
08-07-2010, 04:20 PM
He just need to take a few games off.Noway he should pitch tomorrow with the Cardinals coming up.Cordero has been overused and misused often this year.Going into almost every 9th inning that the Reds lead is just stupid.It's not his fault that this happens and now that there are other guys in the BP dominating there is no reason someone else doesn't pitch the 9th on occasion even if it is a SV opportunity.Dusty really is to blame IMO.

I really don't get how nicely Baker handles Rolen but then insist on burning out Cordero and Cabrera.:confused:

_Sir_Charles_
08-07-2010, 04:24 PM
Well, IMO something needs to be done. The question is what. Because Rhodes has some experience at closing and he's done BADLY at it and has no interest in doing it again IIRC. Masset, Ondrusek, Smith, etc, etc, etc have absolutely no experience in closing essentially. Any of them could very well be WORSE than Cordero. And while he's been stressful on us fans, he's really only had a handful of games get away from him. He's made them stressful, but most times, he's gotten the results. This season from Cordero reminds me of Weathers' last 2 seasons here. Rarely a 1-2-3, always lots of drama, but at the end of the day...a W. The difference...we weren't in a pennant race with David Weathers. I don't think we can sit on our hands and hope for the smoke & mirrors act to play out. I just don't see a very good option right now.

My vote...closer by committee.

Hoosier Red
08-07-2010, 04:24 PM
:beerme:
He just need to take a few games off.Noway he should pitch tomorrow with the Cardinals coming up.Cordero has been overused and misused often this year.Going into almost every 9th inning that the Reds lead is just stupid.It's not his fault that this happens and now that there are other guys in the BP dominating there is no reason someone else doesn't pitch the 9th on occasion even if it is a SV opportunity.Dusty really is to blame IMO.

I really don't get how nicely Baker handles Rolen but then insist on burning out Cordero and Cabrera.:confused:

I think a lot of that is the player's insistence. Rolen's on his last contract. He's most likely retiring as a Red.

Cordero and Cabrera both want to put up big numbers, and I'm guessing every time there's a save situation Cordero says Yeah I'm okay. I know he's not a free agent next year, but quite honestly I wouldn't want a closer who didn't think he was fine every time the team has a 3 run lead.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2010, 04:29 PM
I posted this is today's gamethread.

Every closer blows saves. Cordero actually has a decent percentage.

It just seems his blown saves are devastating. And let's face it, his numbers are not elite closer or even average closer right now.

It's one thing to get burned by a hitter and blow a 1-run lead. Cordero's blown saves are self-induced and just seem to sting more.

One of those, down the line, could not only cripple this club's chance at postseason, but cripple morale as well.

I don't know if Massett would be any better. I think, right now, they are essentially the same. I think the positive is that Massett is younger, cheaper, and is on the brink of taking his game to the next level. Cordero is definitely on the decline. I would love to find a way to deal Cordero this off-season. I think he's served his purpose and outlived his welcome. It's time to move on this off-season. Hopefully the damage is limited from here on through (hopefully) the playoffs.

Captain Hook
08-07-2010, 04:31 PM
:beerme:

I think a lot of that is the player's insistence. Rolen's on his last contract. He's most likely retiring as a Red.

Cordero and Cabrera both want to put up big numbers, and I'm guessing every time there's a save situation Cordero says Yeah I'm okay. I know he's not a free agent next year, but quite honestly I wouldn't want a closer who didn't think he was fine every time the team has a 3 run lead.

Saw in the game thread that Cordero is in line to make 16mil from now until the end of 2011.Money should be the last thing on his mind.This shouldn't be his decision anyway.I do think that Dusty will wake up after today and stop abusing CoCo and use him much less.

Cedric
08-07-2010, 04:36 PM
What to do?

You make sure he doesn't pitch a meaningful game anytime soon. He needs a DL stint.

Kc61
08-07-2010, 04:39 PM
Coco's control hasn't been sharp this year, but he's still a good closer. Give him more time off and let him relax. I think he's pressing right now.

I still think he's the best option to close. Just with more rest.

He's still saved 30 of 36 games.

membengal
08-07-2010, 04:39 PM
He is just allowing too many runners to keep operating in his present gig. Self-inflicted wounds to boot.

JaxRed
08-07-2010, 04:39 PM
First thing you do is put him on waivers, and if there is any chance someone claims him, you negotiate, but no matter what they offer...... take it.

But since no one probably will you make him a 6th inning guy. I like Ondrusek. But you give someone else a chance.

OnBaseMachine
08-07-2010, 04:45 PM
Put him on the DL. He's killing this team right now. Three walks and a HBP today, he clearly doesn't have the control or swing and miss stuff to consistently get big league hitters out right now. I think a phantom DL trip would be the best thing possible for Cordero and the team. Maybe the extra rest could do him some good.

Masset/Rhodes can close depending on the matchups, Ondrusek becomes the eighth inning guy, and call up Chapman. I'd also like to see the Reds attempt a trade for another reliever (Downs, League?).

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2010, 04:46 PM
He's still saved 30 of 36 games.

Today, he got a "hold".

Not a "blown save" or "save opportunity", right?

If that's the case, "30 of 36" is pretty misleading.

As I mentioned before, his blown saves are pretty devastating. Hold a team to 1 run for 8 innings and then have him enter a game and let four batters reach wthout even swinging the bat. Today would have been a brutal loss. This team cannot afford to have 6, 7, 8 brutal losses like that. Thank goodness Masset came through.

edabbs44
08-07-2010, 04:46 PM
Put him on the DL. He's killing this team right now. Three walks and a HBP today, he clearly doesn't have the control or swing and miss stuff to consistently get big league hitters out right now. I think a phantom DL trip would be the best thing possible for Cordero and the team. Maybe the extra rest could do him some good.

Masset/Rhodes can close depending on the matchups, Ondrusek becomes the eighth inning guy, and call up Chapman. I'd also like to see the Reds attempt a trade for another reliever (Downs, League?).

There is no way Downs makes it to Cincy on waivers.

Marc D
08-07-2010, 04:51 PM
First thing you do is put him on waivers, and if there is any chance someone claims him, you negotiate, but no matter what they offer...... take it.

But since no one probably will you make him a 6th inning guy. I like Ondrusek. But you give someone else a chance.


I'm with you but I just can't see anyone offering anything for a Latin Danny Graves. I say DL sting and bring up Chapman. His control simply cannot be any worse.

Tony Cloninger
08-07-2010, 04:53 PM
Start drinking heavily.

Brutus
08-07-2010, 04:54 PM
Start drinking heavily.

We should start the Francisco Cordero drinking game. With every walk he issues in the 9th, we take a swig of hard liquor.

edabbs44
08-07-2010, 04:55 PM
We should start the Francisco Cordero drinking game. With every walk he issues in the 9th, we take a swig of hard liquor.

I think Dusty and Walt invented that game weeks ago

membengal
08-07-2010, 04:55 PM
Alcohol poisoning is no joke, brutus.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2010, 04:55 PM
I'm with you but I just can't see anyone offering anything for a Latin Danny Graves. I say DL sting and bring up Chapman. His control simply cannot be any worse.

Funny you mention Graves. I was just telling someone yesterday that Graves is who Cordero reminds me of now.

Maybe a slight exaggeration, but Coco seems to be going in that direction.

Brutus
08-07-2010, 04:57 PM
Alcohol poisoning is no joke, brutus.

True, but neither is watching self-destructive behavior

:D

Brutus
08-07-2010, 04:58 PM
I think Dusty and Walt invented that game weeks ago

If the Reds were paying Cordero by the ball, it would explain a lot more.

Captain Hook
08-07-2010, 06:04 PM
We should start the Francisco Cordero drinking game. With every walk he issues in the 9th, we take a swig of hard liquor.

There's no way I could wait until the 9th inning to start drinking.There would have to be an entire drinking game involving Reds games(everything that irritates RZ about the Reds)with the 9th inning being the championship round.

Kc61
08-07-2010, 06:11 PM
Today, he got a "hold".

Not a "blown save" or "save opportunity", right?

If that's the case, "30 of 36" is pretty misleading.

As I mentioned before, his blown saves are pretty devastating. Hold a team to 1 run for 8 innings and then have him enter a game and let four batters reach wthout even swinging the bat. Today would have been a brutal loss. This team cannot afford to have 6, 7, 8 brutal losses like that. Thank goodness Masset came through.

All blown saves in a pennant race are pretty tough.

Coco hasn't had a great year but there's no reason for panic.

With some rest I still think he'll come through.

Cedric
08-07-2010, 06:17 PM
All blown saves in a pennant race are pretty tough.

Coco hasn't had a great year but there's no reason for panic.

With some rest I still think he'll come through.

How is that acting in panic? The guy probably would have blown at least 6 runs that inning if it was possible. You really think he is the best option to get 3 outs in any game?

I don't trust the guy with a 5 run lead. I have never seen a closer this bad in my life.

Captain Hook
08-07-2010, 06:19 PM
I'll say one thing about his melt down today.The team really seemed to support him.I saw a bunch of hugs and pats on the back after the game for Cordero.He must be a liked guy and that could very well mean a good team guy.If he is hurting or just a bit run down as I've suggested he may ask Baker to give him a break.I have not seem much discussion on what kind of presence CoCo is in the club house or even the kind of guy he is but I think we are all going to find out real soon.

Redhook
08-07-2010, 06:31 PM
All blown saves in a pennant race are pretty tough.

Coco hasn't had a great year but there's no reason for panic.

With some rest I still think he'll come through.

After today, I don't see how anyone thinks he'll come through. Every time he's out there he gives himself a chance to blow the game. Every time. It's truly amazing. He may have saved 30 of 36, but he's putting the tying and winning runs on base in almost all of those games. It's backfired a few times, and he's only throwing more gas on that fire. Get him out of there and thank your lucky starts you hung on for the win today.

Ron Madden
08-07-2010, 06:34 PM
I've never had less faith in Closer. :(

Sooner or later his luck will run out and he''ll be washed up.

jojo
08-07-2010, 06:38 PM
What to do with Cordero? That's easy-trade him to the Cards.

TheNext44
08-07-2010, 06:38 PM
All blown saves in a pennant race are pretty tough.

Coco hasn't had a great year but there's no reason for panic.

With some rest I still think he'll come through.

He is averaging close to 6 walks every 9 innings. It's hard to imagine how rest will help with that.

I think the main culprit for him this year is that he no longer has an out pitch. It used to be his fastball, but he's just not blowing it by hitters anymore. So even when he throws strikes, hitters are fouling them off and going deep into counts. Since he can't finish them off, they eventually draw a walk or he groves one and they get a hit. He's forced to nibble, which causes more walks.

He might be injured, which would explain the loss of velocity, or he might just be done for his career. He ain't no spring chicken, and his arm has a lot of stressful innings on it.

MWM
08-07-2010, 06:38 PM
Conversion percentage is a poor way to evaluate a closer's effectiveness in a single season. How many of those were 2 or 3 run saves? How many of those did he barely pull it out by pure luck? The only way to look at a closer is who is most likely to hold the lead in today's game. Right now, Cordero would be pretty low on the list. I don't see how he's NOT replaced in that role.

Any run-of-the-mill reliever is more than capable of closing 30 of 36 opportunities.

TheNext44
08-07-2010, 06:41 PM
What to do with Cordero? That's easy-trade him to the Cards.

I already proposed that trade:

Cordero to the Cards
Nothing to the Reds

Reds pay half his salary

If the Cards keep him on the 25 roster through the end of his contract, the Reds pay the whole thing.

If the Cardinals make him their closer, the Reds throw in Alonso.

TheNext44
08-07-2010, 06:43 PM
Its gotten to the point where I now hope the Reds have a 4 run lead, just because I know they won't being in Cordero to save it. Anything less than that and I'm worried.

Brutus
08-07-2010, 06:44 PM
Conversion percentage is a poor way to evaluate a closer's effectiveness in a single season. How many of those were 2 or 3 run saves? How many of those did he barely pull it out by pure luck? The only way to look at a closer is who is most likely to hold the lead in today's game. Right now, Cordero would be pretty low on the list. I don't see how he's NOT replaced in that role.

Any run-of-the-mill reliever is more than capable of closing 30 of 36 opportunities.

30 of 36 is about an average rate. I don't know that I'd say any run-of-the-mill guy could do that.

Further, there's nothing to suggest he's been 'lucky.' His BABIP is normal. His HR/FB ratio is actually higher than usual. His strand rate is slightly inflated, but not terribly. Simply put, the only difference, periperhally speaking, is his hugely inflated walk rate. He's just not finding the strike zone--though his ability to miss bats in 2009 and 2010 is nothing like earlier in his career.

My point is not to say Cordero is getting the job done. I'd like him replaced (yesterday). But 30 of 36 opportunities, on the macro, is still decent. It's about 84 percent, and while it's not the best measurement of a reliever, it most certainly measures the most important thing: getting the win when called upon.

CTA513
08-07-2010, 06:44 PM
He is just allowing too many runners to keep operating in his present gig. Self-inflicted wounds to boot.

:thumbup:


1.55 whip on the season

mth123
08-07-2010, 07:01 PM
Put me down for Cordero to the DL, Rhodes to the closer role and Chapman up. After a two week rest, a couple game rehab and see if his stuff comes back and the back in the fire and go from there.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2010, 07:06 PM
30 of 36 is about an average rate. I don't know that I'd say any run-of-the-mill guy could do that.


Correct me if I'm wrong (and I've brought this up a few times without anyone telling otherwise), but something like today (IMO a blown save) does not count in the "30 of 36".

How many other times has he been bailed out that didn't factor into that, rather misleading, percentage?

With that said, even if he were at 99%, I would still know what my eyes see and that is that he's making the saves way harder than they should be.

Coco needs to Gogo in 2011.

marcshoe
08-07-2010, 07:08 PM
Right. It can't be a blown save if the lead was never given up.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2010, 07:08 PM
Put me down for Cordero to the DL, Rhodes to the closer role and Chapman up. After a two week rest, a couple game rehab and see if his stuff comes back and the back in the fire and go from there.

Yep and if he doesn't?

Closer by committee.

And hopefully with the addition of Chapman, the bullpen is okay through October.

VR
08-07-2010, 07:10 PM
Like Welsh & Thom, I don't see CoCo's role as closer being changed. I don't know if 'fat' is an injury, but I'd try to sneak him on the dl with that. IMHO, his poor conditioning over the last few years has caught up to him in a big way. The list of overweight pitchers with great success in the bigs is a very very short one.

klw
08-07-2010, 07:21 PM
As I suggested in the game thread, sit Coco down for 5 games. Make Heisey the closer. Worked for Stubbs.

Or the offense could blow the team out and let him get rest.

mth123
08-07-2010, 07:24 PM
Yep and if he doesn't?

Closer by committee.

And hopefully with the addition of Chapman, the bullpen is okay through October.

Yeah, but given his status, I still think he'll be chairman of the committee. As long as he's on the team, moving him to mop-up duty just isn't going to happen. They need to focus on getting him right becuase he simply isn't going to be pushed aside or moved out.

Kc61
08-07-2010, 07:29 PM
Couple of months ago everyone wanted to DFA Masset. Last trade deadline lots of fans wanted to sell off Rhodes. Ondrusek was sent down earlier in the year. Bray is still a question mark. Last year Herrera was good. Now he's not. Burton is up and down.

These guys can be streaky.

Cordero will be ok. As long as he gets some rest and isn't overused for the next couple of weeks.

membengal
08-07-2010, 07:33 PM
It's not the streaky, KC, it's the baserunners. There are just too many. And it's been that way ALL year with Cordero.

And when Massett was going bad, he was also striking out a LOT of batters. Coco doesn't seem to have that ability anymore.

It's a problem.

I wish rest were the answer, but he got quite a bit around the All-star break, and here we are back in it again.

Kc61
08-07-2010, 07:57 PM
It's not the streaky, KC, it's the baserunners. There are just too many. And it's been that way ALL year with Cordero.

And when Massett was going bad, he was also striking out a LOT of batters. Coco doesn't seem to have that ability anymore.

It's a problem.

I wish rest were the answer, but he got quite a bit around the All-star break, and here we are back in it again.

I think Coco is forcing things. He's not throwing free and easy. I don't object to mixing in some Masset save appearances with Coco. I just think that Coco will be all right with some rest and a chance to clear his head.

I think he is throwing well, but he was wild low today. If I thought he wasn't throwing well, I'd feel differently. It's a command issue and I happen to think it can be fixed.

The guy is fearless in the ninth inning and I disagree with those who would give up on him.

I was happy today to see Masset's performance under the gun in the ninth. He could well be Coco's successor as closer. For now, I'd give Nick some chances but I wouldn't be afraid to use Coco after some rest.

Brutus
08-07-2010, 08:06 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I've brought this up a few times without anyone telling otherwise), but something like today (IMO a blown save) does not count in the "30 of 36".

How many other times has he been bailed out that didn't factor into that, rather misleading, percentage?

With that said, even if he were at 99%, I would still know what my eyes see and that is that he's making the saves way harder than they should be.

Coco needs to Gogo in 2011.

You're correct that it doesn't count. But I believe today's situation has happened only twice all year.

RedEye
08-07-2010, 08:24 PM
Hasn't this sort of performance always been part of Cordero's makeup as a player? Yes, when the Reds signed him to that unprecedented contract, he was coming off a ridiculously good (and lucky) season. But in previous years, I seem to remember he had routinely been a nail-bite type with questionable control in pressure situations. Am I wrong?

Anyway, I think he should be done as the closer for awhile. I'm just saying we shouldn't be surprised by his performance, is all.

membengal
08-07-2010, 08:34 PM
Just took a quick glance at baseball reference.com:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cordefr01.shtml

The BB/9 Hits/9 and HR/9 are all career highs (or close to it...if you count rookie year one BB/9 was worse). The K/9 is nearly a career low (last year lower, barely).

In general, all of his numbers good and bad, are trending in the wrong direction. Fast.

He's always given up his share of runners, but NEVER like this, and he has in the past missed bats, but isn't doing that anymore.

Again, not sure how "rest" fixes this.

Age and use may be catching up to him.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2010, 08:53 PM
The sad thing is that I think he can be a decent asset to the bullpen. Just in a different role. I'm afraid even if the braintrust decide just to assume his 2011 salary a sunk cost, and move him into a 7th or 8th inning role, that his pride might not being able to to it.

membengal
08-07-2010, 08:57 PM
I don't know, buckeye, I may be naive on this, but he sure seems like a team player, and his mates all really like him. Perhaps he would be more open to a newish set of responsibilities than we can guess.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2010, 09:20 PM
I don't know, buckeye, I may be naive on this, but he sure seems like a team player, and his mates all really like him. Perhaps he would be more open to a newish set of responsibilities than we can guess.

I worded that poorly. I didn't mean to imply that in a bad way, but in a way that being demoted might mess him up psychologically.

Like Cabrera, I believe Cordero's an asset to this clubhouse and a good team player. I just wonder how he could rebound from being removed from a position that he's been in for so long.

What makes a closer special is that they are different. They are a rare breed. Otherwise, Arthur Rhodes could do it. Only certain relief pitchers have it in them. I wonder how it messes with them when they lose that top spot.

jojo
08-07-2010, 09:30 PM
I worded that poorly. I didn't mean to imply that in a bad way, but in a way that being demoted might mess him up psychologically.

Like Cabrera, I believe Cordero's an asset to this clubhouse and a good team player. I just wonder how he could rebound from being removed from a position that he's been in for so long.

What makes a closer special is that they are different. They are a rare breed. Otherwise, Arthur Rhodes could do it. Only certain relief pitchers have it in them. I wonder how it messes with them when they lose that top spot.

I think this is more myth than reality.... The reality is that only certain relief pitchers have the stuff to be consistently high leverage. Makeup is the last thing to worry about after not walking guys, missing bats, and killing worms.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-07-2010, 09:47 PM
I think this is more myth than reality.... The reality is that only certain relief pitchers have the stuff to be consistently high leverage. Makeup is the last thing to worry about after not walking guys, missing bats, and killing worms.

I understand what you are saying, but why is it that I've always heard that Arthur Rhodes has not been able to handle closing duties?

We have a guy that's been pitching pretty effectively his entire 20-year career (out of the 'pen) and he can't close?

jojo
08-07-2010, 09:54 PM
I understand what you are saying, but why is it that I've always heard that Arthur Rhodes has not been able to handle closing duties?

We have a guy that's been pitching pretty effectively his entire 20-year career (out of the 'pen) and he can't close?

Arthur has had some pretty sizeable platoon splits across his career.

edabbs44
08-07-2010, 10:01 PM
Not sure that we should be surprised by his decline, as more than a few anticipated this type of pattern upon his signing.

Mario-Rijo
08-07-2010, 10:05 PM
I guess you have to hope he doesn't kill us in the short term, hope Izzy works out and then you have someone with experience and hopefully the stuff to get the job done for the rest of the season. After that who knows! :confused:

TheNext44
08-07-2010, 10:19 PM
I think this is more myth than reality.... The reality is that only certain relief pitchers have the stuff to be consistently high leverage. Makeup is the last thing to worry about after not walking guys, missing bats, and killing worms.

Stuff is most important, but I've seen far too many guys with just okay stuff be effective closers (Brantley, Hume, Franco, Graves, Shaw, Weathers, just to name Reds) and far too many guys with great stuff who had problems closing (Dibble, M. Williams off the top of my head) because they were too emotional and couldn't bounce back from blown saves, to dismiss closing makeup as a myth.

Probably too much is made of it, but I wouldn't call it a myth.

Character and makeup influences perfromance in high pressure situations in real life, why can't it do that in baseball?

jojo
08-07-2010, 11:01 PM
Stuff is most important, but I've seen far too many guys with just okay stuff be effective closers (Brantley, Hume, Franco, Graves, Shaw, Weathers, just to name Reds) and far too many guys with great stuff who had problems closing (Dibble, M. Williams off the top of my head) because they were too emotional and couldn't bounce back from blown saves, to dismiss closing makeup as a myth.

Probably too much is made of it, but I wouldn't call it a myth.

Character and makeup influences perfromance in high pressure situations in real life, why can't it do that in baseball?

When Dibble was throwing strikes, he was fine. Williams never had a clue where the ball was going to go. I'm not seeing scardie pants syndrome here...

Weathers never was a particularly effective closer. The fact that Graves could close ought really to shatter the myth...

Degenerate39
08-07-2010, 11:10 PM
I really think Bailey could do well as a closer but this year the Reds need Homer as a starter. Leake and Wood should be nearing their respective inning limits. Volquez still really isn't proven yet so the Reds could still really need Bailey and Harang in the rotation. I'd honestly like to see the Reds start to groom Bailey for the closer role next year though

fearofpopvol1
08-08-2010, 12:26 AM
I am very concerned about Cordero. He is an absolute wreck on the mound. At least he was better the earlier part of the year.

Since June 23, Cordero has had a grand total of 2 appearances where he did not give up a hit or a walk. That is putrid.

Cordero has been worth about $1M this year in salary despite being paid 12.5X that.

TheNext44
08-08-2010, 12:43 AM
When Dibble was throwing strikes, he was fine. Williams never had a clue where the ball was going to go. I'm not seeing scardie pants syndrome here...

Weathers never was a particularly effective closer. The fact that Graves could close ought really to shatter the myth...

We can go closer by closer and debate each one, but that really would be a waste of time.

My main point is that some people excel in pressure situations and some fold in pressure situations in all other aspects of life. Why would baseball be the one exception to this?

Blitz Dorsey
08-08-2010, 02:17 AM
If Cordero had a reality show, they would call it "Wild on E."

Oh, that one's already taken?

Ron Madden
08-08-2010, 02:30 AM
I think Coco is forcing things. He's not throwing free and easy. I don't object to mixing in some Masset save appearances with Coco. I just think that Coco will be all right with some rest and a chance to clear his head.

I think he is throwing well, but he was wild low today. If I thought he wasn't throwing well, I'd feel differently. It's a command issue and I happen to think it can be fixed.

The guy is fearless in the ninth inning and I disagree with those who would give up on him.

I was happy today to see Masset's performance under the gun in the ninth. He could well be Coco's successor as closer. For now, I'd give Nick some chances but I wouldn't be afraid to use Coco after some rest.

If any young guy were to put up the same numbers that Coco has for the season you would be leading the lynch mob against him.

You have always favored old worn out bullpen arms. ;)

Captain Hook
08-08-2010, 02:46 AM
I really think Bailey could do well as a closer but this year the Reds need Homer as a starter. Leake and Wood should be nearing their respective inning limits. Volquez still really isn't proven yet so the Reds could still really need Bailey and Harang in the rotation. I'd honestly like to see the Reds start to groom Bailey for the closer role next year though

Who knows how things will play out.Dusty does makes it somewhat predictable but at least the team has real options if Baker decides to do something different.The Reds are a real playoff/world series contender and if the current main stays aren't getting the job done then something reasonable can be done.It's a far better situation this year as compared to seasons past if the Reds had lucked their way to where they are now.

mdccclxix
08-08-2010, 03:21 AM
I think you just rest him for a few extra games. That's a start. Then you get him to start approaching the game differently by throwing more breaking stuff. His slider was THE key to his success and when he got here in 2008 - it was all fans could talk about. He is throwing it less and less and the only explanation I can think of is he's hurt, or at risk of being hurt by that pitch.

Razor Shines
08-08-2010, 03:52 AM
I think if the Reds had ended up losing today Cordero would have been put on the DL, but since they held on I think his performance will continue to be ignored with "hey we won."

I really hope he gets a DL stint and we see a closer by committee situation.

TheNext44
08-08-2010, 04:34 AM
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100807/SPT04/308070030/1071/Reds-hold-their-breath-beat-Cubs

Here is Fay's article on Saturday's game.

What I want to know is how can a beat writer cover this game without asking Baker about the status of Cordero as the Closer? I wouldn't expect Baker to give an clear answer, but a writer has to ask that question.

jojo
08-08-2010, 07:07 AM
We can go closer by closer and debate each one, but that really would be a waste of time.

My main point is that some people excel in pressure situations and some fold in pressure situations in all other aspects of life. Why would baseball be the one exception to this?

Because baseball tends to be a self selecting endeavor....by the time a pitcher makes it to the big leagues, there's a good chance he's going to be 6'4", 210lbs, have an athletic behind, and a lot of testosterone....

Cyclone792
08-08-2010, 10:07 AM
Since July 1st, which encompasses 13.1 innings over 14 games:

K/9: 7.43
BB/9: 10.125
K/BB: 0.73

Factor in the one additional HBP yesterday, and Cordero's put 16 guys on base via lousy command in his last 13.1 innings. If this keeps up anywhere near this pace, blown saves are inevitable.

Either Cordero's command has to improve right now, or the Reds have to keep him out of sitautions where he's protecting small leads. Otherwise, he's going to drive this team over a cliff if what we've seen over the last five weeks continues.

TheNext44
08-08-2010, 10:30 AM
Because baseball tends to be a self selecting endeavor....by the time a pitcher makes it to the big leagues, there's a good chance he's going to be 6'4", 210lbs, have an athletic behind, and a lot of testosterone....

Other fields don't? Anyone can be a police officer, car salesman or teacher? Or are you suggesting that anyone who make a major league roster by definition does well in pressure situations?

Cedric
08-08-2010, 10:41 AM
Other fields don't? Anyone can be a police officer, car salesman or teacher? Or are you suggesting that anyone who make a major league roster by definition does well in pressure situations?

I don't believe in "clutch" and I don't believe in closers.

If you are good enough to handle the pressure in the 7th/8th inning you can handle the pressure of closing a game.

Pitching at the MLB level is an incredibly high pressure/individual task in any situation. If you are able to get people out anywhere through a game I can only assume that you can get people out in the 9th inning.

jojo
08-08-2010, 11:17 AM
Other fields don't? Anyone can be a police officer, car salesman or teacher? Or are you suggesting that anyone who make a major league roster by definition does well in pressure situations?

I'm saying that anyone who makes a major league roster has played a lot of baseball and not only isn't new to pressure situations, but isn't likely to be a shrinking violet in the sense that their true talent/randomness isn't going to be the biggest factor in determining the outcome.

RedsManRick
08-08-2010, 11:19 AM
If Cordero wasn't "the closer" and just a reliever, people would be talking about demoting him.

You combine a guy who's always been effectively wild getting a little bit older with being used back-to-back-to-back nights multiple times, despite high pitch counts, and this is what you get. Dusty's refusal to put the team's welfare ahead of the feelings of individual players (well, most of them) continues to bite us.

OnBaseMachine
08-08-2010, 01:08 PM
It sounds like the Reds will continue running Cordero out there despite this team being in a pennant race.


Thats the problem, Baker said. Bryan will get it figured out. Coco will, too. In the meantime, hes my closer and hes what I got. . . Thats a tough job. You can save 20 in row and blow one . . . Its like a place-kicker in football. He can make 10 in a row. But he misses one to lose the game and people want to run him out of town.

Weve got to find a way to help him. Hes the best weve got.


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/08/baker-comes-to-corderos-defense/

marcshoe
08-08-2010, 01:29 PM
Cordero's WHIP over the past month is 1.74. You can't allow that many baserunners and be a successful closer. At the least, he needs a rest.

btw, even though their WHIPs for the season are close, Masset's WHIP for the last month is 1.00. I'd let him take over for a while.

jojo
08-08-2010, 01:30 PM
It sounds like the Reds will continue running Cordero out there despite this team being in a pennant race.



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/08/baker-comes-to-corderos-defense/

To me, it isn't a myopic focus on a blown save that's making fans squeemish... it's a seeming failure to acknowledge the notion that Cordero's skillset isn't congruent with the job description that's starting to rankle many fans...

It's really the same criticism common to alot of managers relative to their pen usage... It's like asking a flyball pitcher induce a inning ending doubleplay with bases loaded and the score tied.....

Cordero has a track record that gets him some points and Price has one too so its understandable that Dusty will be slow to make a move that significantly alters a player's role as this case would be...

Truthfully, it's not something that i'd fixate upon because they've (Dusty etc) gotta be thinking about these issues.... While we all might disagree on the proper timing to pull the trigger, old school, new school, eyes only, nose in a spreadsheet only and every permutation in between would've picked up on this issue....

Dusty probably tends to extend a longer rope than some but he's probably not going to let the rope be a noose to the Reds playoff aspirations...

marcshoe
08-08-2010, 01:34 PM
Dusty probably tends to extend a longer rope than some but he's probably not going to let the rope be a noose to the Reds playoff aspirations...

Yes, I think we've seen that over and over this season, and Dusty's earned a certain amount of my confidence this year by making the needed changes, even if he does them later than I would like.

Chip R
08-08-2010, 01:41 PM
I have the solution. Move Cordero to the rotation. ;)

I was following the game on my phone yesterday and I was shocked Dusty took him out and didn't let him finish.

What I don't understand is why guys like Ondrusek and Smith can come into a game and not have any problems but seemingly every time Cordero comes in, he can't be effective like the other guys.

Cyclone792
08-08-2010, 01:45 PM
What I don't understand is why guys like Ondrusek and Smith can come into a game and not have any problems but seemingly every time Cordero comes in, he can't be effective like the other guys.

Cordero doesn't throw strikes; that's pretty much the end all be all. And unfortunately, the league is also beginning to adjust. Hitters know that Cordero can't find the strike zone, and they'll just stand there with the bat on their shoulders and let Cordero fill the bases up with walks.

I find it absolutely sad that the Cubs scored two runs and put three more baserunners on in the 9th inning last night without even the help of one hit.

Chip R
08-08-2010, 01:55 PM
Cordero doesn't throw strikes; that's pretty much the end all be all. And unfortunately, the league is also beginning to adjust. Hitters know that Cordero can't find the strike zone, and they'll just stand there with the bat on their shoulders and let Cordero fill the bases up with walks.

I find it absolutely sad that the Cubs scored two runs and put three more baserunners on in the 9th inning last night without even the help of one hit.

I agree. You can walk a few guys against a bad team like the Cubs but if the Reds are in a similar situation this week against StL, they won't let him off the hook.

Brutus
08-08-2010, 02:27 PM
I don't believe in "clutch" and I don't believe in closers.

If you are good enough to handle the pressure in the 7th/8th inning you can handle the pressure of closing a game.

Pitching at the MLB level is an incredibly high pressure/individual task in any situation. If you are able to get people out anywhere through a game I can only assume that you can get people out in the 9th inning.

I think it defies very human nature to not believe in clutch. In society, there are clearly people cut out to better handle stressful events. There are individuals that psychologically, exort better leadership than others in crucial situations. I'm not sure why baseball would be any different. The human mind can be fickle, and not every person responds to pressure the same way even if they're physically capable of doing so.

WebScorpion
08-08-2010, 02:30 PM
It sounds like the Reds will continue running Cordero out there despite this team being in a pennant race.



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/08/baker-comes-to-corderos-defense/

I was actually quite impressed with Dusty in this one. He pulled CoCo just in time to save the game, yet he stuck with him long enough to let CoCo know he's still the guy. In the past, he'd have stuck with him until the lead was already gone. Also, from that same article this makes me feel a bit better:


Its very simple, Price said. He has a good delivery. But like anyone else it can go south on him. From my perspective this is second time weve talked about it over the course of the year he collapses his back leg and then he throws off his heel. Thats why we saw yesterday a lot of his pitches were getting pulled to one side of the plate. He got away form being in a good position to throw strikes. The last time it happened it was a quick adjustment.

Its been pretty easy for him to clean it up in the past.

I have a lot of confidence in Bryan Price and Cordero to get his problems straightened out...at least they're not pretending there isn't a problem. I hope Dusty puts CoCo on a shorter leash for the Cardinal series though.


http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared003.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

TheNext44
08-08-2010, 02:35 PM
I'm saying that anyone who makes a major league roster has played a lot of baseball and not only isn't new to pressure situations, but isn't likely to be a shrinking violet in the sense that their true talent/randomness isn't going to be the biggest factor in determining the outcome.


I don't believe in "clutch" and I don't believe in closers.

If you are good enough to handle the pressure in the 7th/8th inning you can handle the pressure of closing a game.

Pitching at the MLB level is an incredibly high pressure/individual task in any situation. If you are able to get people out anywhere through a game I can only assume that you can get people out in the 9th inning.

I apologize for getting this thread off point, but I just want to make one more important point.

I too do not believe in "closers" and I think that is where the confusion lies.

Because of the closer rule, people assume that pitching in the 9th is a high pressure situation. It really isn't. Many times, the highest pressure situation is earlier in the game, say the 6th inning, a tie game with the bases loaded, no outs and #3-5 hitters up. After that, the ninth inning, with a three run lead, no one on, and the bottom of the lineup up, is a breeze.

I think it is naive to think that all pitching situations are of equal "pressure" or difficulty. They are not and that is why you have different pitchers lined up to pitch in different situations.

Of course, the main criteria for deciding who pitches where is stuff. BUt again, it is naive to suggest that character and mentality doesn't play a role in that decision, or that it doesn't play a big enough role to matter. And it is not just a matter of who can handle the pressure, but also who can bounce back from failing in a pressure situation.

This latter point is what is most important for "closers", the ability to not get affected by a blown save. I think clearly there are guys who fall apart after giving up a big home run, and those who actually come back stronger after one.

jojo
08-08-2010, 02:40 PM
Rivera was a BoSox killer until they got into his head until he was a BoSox killer again....

Same thing with Lidge...he was toast after giving up a critical homer until of course he was inexplicably lights out again as a champion....

In other words, it's not naive to suggest that 99% of the impact of character and mentality is actually a construct of the media.

HokieRed
08-08-2010, 02:44 PM
Rivera was a BoSox killer until they got into his head until he was a BoSox killer again....

Same thing with Lidge...he was toast after giving up a critical homer until of course he was inexplicably lights out again as a champion....

In other words, it's not naive to suggest that 99% of the impact of character and mentality is actually a construct of the media.

Amen.

TheNext44
08-08-2010, 02:54 PM
Rivera was a BoSox killer until they got into his head until he was a BoSox killer again....

Same thing with Lidge...he was toast after giving up a critical homer until of course he was inexplicably lights out again as a champion....

In other words, it's not naive to suggest that 99% of the impact of character and mentality is actually a construct of the media.

Anyone who questioned Rivera's character is an idiot. I'll give you that.

But the Lidge case proves my point. It took him two years to recover from giving up that homer. I think that's a clear case of a guy affected by the pressure. He had a total collapse, and only after moving to a new team could he get back on track. A true closer should be able to get back on track the next game. I think it is beyond naive to suggest that the pressure didn't get to Lidge.

jojo
08-08-2010, 03:08 PM
Anyone who questioned Rivera's character is an idiot. I'll give you that.

But the Lidge case proves my point. It took him two years to recover from giving up that homer. I think that's a clear case of a guy affected by the pressure. He had a total collapse, and only after moving to a new team could he get back on track. A true closer should be able to get back on track the next game. I think it is beyond naive to suggest that the pressure didn't get to Lidge.

Lidge is a clear case of volatility. It's circular logic to suggest he's proof of a character narrative.

Seriously how could a guy go from having rock solid character to being a shrinking violet to being lock down again to being weak once again.... that's not how character works in my world... It is how command and randomness works for relievers though...

TheNext44
08-08-2010, 03:21 PM
Lidge is a clear case of volatility. It's circular logic to suggest he's proof of a character narrative.

Seriously how could a guy go from having rock solid character to being a shrinking violet to being lock down again to being weak once again.... that's not how character works in my world... It is how command and randomness works for relievers though...

People aren't static emotional beings.

If I have an over eating problem, I can be fine, then if my girlfriend breaks up with me, I can go on huge eating binge that can last months, even years. Eventually, i get over her, go on a diet and get back to my normal weight. That can happen 10 times in 10 years. In fact, with people who have similar issues, (like in inability to handle high pressure situations) that is pretty much how their lives go.

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 09:08 AM
People aren't static emotional beings.

If I have an over eating problem, I can be fine, then if my girlfriend breaks up with me, I can go on huge eating binge that can last months, even years. Eventually, i get over her, go on a diet and get back to my normal weight. That can happen 10 times in 10 years. In fact, with people who have similar issues, (like in inability to handle high pressure situations) that is pretty much how their lives go.

Probably how it works in Lidge's world. He's fine, then they play the Cards and he sees Pujols on the field and he cracks. Then he gets back into the groove and he flips on Sportscenter and there he is, Mr Pujols, staring into the camera...next game, he is all over the place.

Bill Simmons had a great quote a few years back before the Phillies WS appearance where he said that if he was the owner of the opposing team, he would have hired Pujols to throw the first pitch out before Game 1 and then look into the dugout, point at Lidge and do one of those breaking motions with his hands. Classic.

jojo
08-09-2010, 09:47 AM
People aren't static emotional beings.

If I have an over eating problem, I can be fine, then if my girlfriend breaks up with me, I can go on huge eating binge that can last months, even years. Eventually, i get over her, go on a diet and get back to my normal weight. That can happen 10 times in 10 years. In fact, with people who have similar issues, (like in inability to handle high pressure situations) that is pretty much how their lives go.

So Lidge, whose job by definition means he only pitches in high leverage situations, freaks out when he's put in high leverage situations? But only sometimes? And Pujols is the trigger?

BTW, Pujol's career numbers against Lidge are lower than his overall career numbers by like .200 pts of OPS. Doesn't sound to me like the character narrative fits Lidge that well.

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 10:02 AM
So Lidge, whose job by definition means he only pitches in high leverage situations, freaks out when he's put in high leverage situations? But only sometimes? And Pujols is the trigger?

BTW, Pujol's career numbers against Lidge are lower than his overall career numbers by like .200 pts of OPS. Doesn't sound to me like the character narrative fits Lidge that well.

Do those numbers include the postseason?

Also, if this were true you would need to look at it from Lidge's point of view, not Pujols'. And Pujols' numbers vs Lidge are roughly 200 pts above Lidge's career OPS against.

Not to say that I think that Pujols wrecked Lidge, but it makes for an interesting debate due to the timing of his out of nowhere collapse in 2006.

jojo
08-09-2010, 10:12 AM
Do those numbers include the postseason?

They've faced each other a mere 7 times in the post season and Pujols has 2 singles and the homerun against Lidge... The character narrative comes down to 1 swing.


Also, if this were true you would need to look at it from Lidge's point of view, not Pujols'. And Pujols' numbers vs Lidge are roughly 200 pts above Lidge's career OPS against.

Not to say that I think that Pujols wrecked Lidge, but it makes for an interesting debate due to the timing of his out of nowhere collapse in 2006.

A high leverage arm faces the greatest hitter in the game and both perform worse than their career numbers.... Isn't that more expected than proof of a character narrative?

bucksfan2
08-09-2010, 10:19 AM
Is it just more or has closing the game across baseball become a much more exciting event in this post PED era? It just doesn't seem like you have any "sure thing" or "lights outs" closers anymore. It almost seems like the dominant closers are few and far between.

I do believe in the "closer" and while you could make the argument that pitching in the 6th inning could be a higher leverage situation, it doesn't have the sense of finality that pitching in the 9th (or last inning of the game if it goes to extra's). You could think the 6th inning of a tie game is the most important inning but if you give up say 2 runs you still have 3-4 innings to get that run back. If you surrender the lead in the 9th the game may just be over.

IslandRed
08-09-2010, 10:21 AM
I'm kind of in the middle on this... I think that most decent relief pitchers could do an acceptable job of closing. But I also know that the closer mentality is one that the pitchers buy into, and when a guy blows a save, everyone's pointing the finger saying YOU lost the game, the pitcher is thinking the same... even within the context of people who are used to pressure, human nature and history shows that not everyone shakes it off equally well.

Sea Ray
08-09-2010, 10:22 AM
What to do with Cordero? Have a quicker hook for him when he's throwing like he did in Chicago and don't give him all the save opportunities. I do think Dusty has overworked him. If he's pitched the previous 3 days then use someone else to save that 4th day. I thought Dusty left him in one batter too long on Saturday.

Jpup
08-09-2010, 11:07 AM
Is it just more or has closing the game across baseball become a much more exciting event in this post PED era? It just doesn't seem like you have any "sure thing" or "lights outs" closers anymore. It almost seems like the dominant closers are few and far between.

I do believe in the "closer" and while you could make the argument that pitching in the 6th inning could be a higher leverage situation, it doesn't have the sense of finality that pitching in the 9th (or last inning of the game if it goes to extra's). You could think the 6th inning of a tie game is the most important inning but if you give up say 2 runs you still have 3-4 innings to get that run back. If you surrender the lead in the 9th the game may just be over.

Mo is lights out and a sure thing. When he comes in, the game is over.

As far as Cordero, I think he's a good pitcher and I still have faith in him. He's in a funk and has been overused. He'll be fine.

bucksfan2
08-09-2010, 11:43 AM
Mo is lights out and a sure thing. When he comes in, the game is over.

As far as Cordero, I think he's a good pitcher and I still have faith in him. He's in a funk and has been overused. He'll be fine.

I know Mo has been lights out this season, but to me it seems like closers in general are no longer a sure thing.

I think there is more involved in closing a game than meets the eye. I think its easy to say "Player X has good stuff he can close." But the reality is it takes a different mindset to be a closer. I would like to think Ondrusek could close, but he hasn't done so at the major league level. IIRC Rhodes in his last stint as closer wasn't very successful. I am hesitant to remove him from his 8th inning/lefty specialist role because he adds a tremendous amount of value to the club.

Cordero isn't getting hit right now, he just isn't getting the ball over the plate. The longer he goes with control issues, the more difficult it will be for him. Ideally it would be nice to pitch him in a game that is out of hand. Don't send a guy out in a presser situation when he can't find the plate. Send him out in a 5 run game and allow him to work on his command.

cincrazy
08-09-2010, 11:56 AM
I know Mo has been lights out this season, but to me it seems like closers in general are no longer a sure thing.

I think there is more involved in closing a game than meets the eye. I think its easy to say "Player X has good stuff he can close." But the reality is it takes a different mindset to be a closer. I would like to think Ondrusek could close, but he hasn't done so at the major league level. IIRC Rhodes in his last stint as closer wasn't very successful. I am hesitant to remove him from his 8th inning/lefty specialist role because he adds a tremendous amount of value to the club.

Cordero isn't getting hit right now, he just isn't getting the ball over the plate. The longer he goes with control issues, the more difficult it will be for him. Ideally it would be nice to pitch him in a game that is out of hand. Don't send a guy out in a presser situation when he can't find the plate. Send him out in a 5 run game and allow him to work on his command.

Agreed. Let's do a quick rundown of closers on contending NL teams... Ryan Franklin of the Cards, Cordero of the Reds, Billy Wagner of the Braves, Brad Lidge of the Phillies... I think the two teams out West, San Diego and San Fran, have the best closers BY FAR of any of the contending teams in Heath Bell and Brian Wilson. But neither of those guys makes me shake in my boots, either.

osuceltic
08-09-2010, 12:09 PM
Of course pressure impacts performance. It's true in every sport and probably every walk of life. Some people handle it better than others. It's one reason why some kids with the same IQ test well and others don't. It's why golfers get the yips on short putts. It's why some basketball players struggle at the foul line late in close games. It's why some field goal kickers struggle on game-winners. Some guys handle it well, others don't. The mind does crazy things to a person. The more time they have to think about things (failure, mechanics, etc.), generally the greater the impact of pressure/stress on performance. When performance is more reactive and heat-of-the-moment, the impact of pressure is minimized somewhat. Closers get a lot of time to think.

Physically, what is the difference? Pressure can tighten muscles. That normally smooth putting stroke gets a little quick and jabby (ask Tom Watson or Johnny Miller). Those foul shots, which normally are guided by muscle memory, suddenly look like a push (ask Nick Anderson).

Players go through all sorts of exercises -- both mental and physical -- to combat the effects of pressure on performance. A lot of them favor breathing exercises. You'll see a lot of guys do more stretching, trying to keep blood flowing and the muscles loose. The more pressure-packed the situation, generally the more bending and stretching you'll see from a guy.

It's a very real thing. It's often said the best closers have short memories. I think that's true in just about any sport. The best at handling pressure are the guys who forget about their failures and don't overthink things. Some guys just can't do that. I think we all know people like that, who beat themselves up over mistakes or who can't pull the trigger on tough decisions. Do you think athletes are any different? They have the same hangups we do -- only theirs get trotted out for display in front of 30,000 people and a national TV audience every night. And it's even worse now, with the advent of ESPN and the Internet. Nothing is forgotten. How often do you think Brad Lidge is reminded of that home run or of his struggles in the aftermath? I would guess he constantly struggles with those demons, and with the knowledge that if he fails, those same clips and questions will come up again.

I guess I'm a little surprised that anyone would suggest that pressure or "clutch" (which really just means dealing with pressure well) do not exist.

durl
08-09-2010, 12:23 PM
I posted this in another thread, but in Weathers' final year as a closer in 2007, he put up slightly better numbers than Cordero has so far this season and cost WAY less.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2196935&postcount=8

cincrazy
08-09-2010, 01:21 PM
Of course pressure impacts performance. It's true in every sport and probably every walk of life. Some people handle it better than others. It's one reason why some kids with the same IQ test well and others don't. It's why golfers get the yips on short putts. It's why some basketball players struggle at the foul line late in close games. It's why some field goal kickers struggle on game-winners. Some guys handle it well, others don't. The mind does crazy things to a person. The more time they have to think about things (failure, mechanics, etc.), generally the greater the impact of pressure/stress on performance. When performance is more reactive and heat-of-the-moment, the impact of pressure is minimized somewhat. Closers get a lot of time to think.

Physically, what is the difference? Pressure can tighten muscles. That normally smooth putting stroke gets a little quick and jabby (ask Tom Watson or Johnny Miller). Those foul shots, which normally are guided by muscle memory, suddenly look like a push (ask Nick Anderson).

Players go through all sorts of exercises -- both mental and physical -- to combat the effects of pressure on performance. A lot of them favor breathing exercises. You'll see a lot of guys do more stretching, trying to keep blood flowing and the muscles loose. The more pressure-packed the situation, generally the more bending and stretching you'll see from a guy.

It's a very real thing. It's often said the best closers have short memories. I think that's true in just about any sport. The best at handling pressure are the guys who forget about their failures and don't overthink things. Some guys just can't do that. I think we all know people like that, who beat themselves up over mistakes or who can't pull the trigger on tough decisions. Do you think athletes are any different? They have the same hangups we do -- only theirs get trotted out for display in front of 30,000 people and a national TV audience every night. And it's even worse now, with the advent of ESPN and the Internet. Nothing is forgotten. How often do you think Brad Lidge is reminded of that home run or of his struggles in the aftermath? I would guess he constantly struggles with those demons, and with the knowledge that if he fails, those same clips and questions will come up again.

I guess I'm a little surprised that anyone would suggest that pressure or "clutch" (which really just means dealing with pressure well) do not exist.

I agree with you.

In Peter King's MMQB on SI.com, he talked to Nate Kaeding, SD Chargers kicker, who revealed he's going to a sports psychologist to deal with his missed field goals in last year's playoffs. Kaeding has long been known for being a GREAT regular season kicker, and a horrible postseason kicker, and to his credit he's been honest and attributed that difference to the stress level.

osuceltic
08-09-2010, 01:55 PM
I agree with you.

In Peter King's MMQB on SI.com, he talked to Nate Kaeding, SD Chargers kicker, who revealed he's going to a sports psychologist to deal with his missed field goals in last year's playoffs. Kaeding has long been known for being a GREAT regular season kicker, and a horrible postseason kicker, and to his credit he's been honest and attributed that difference to the stress level.

I read that after I posted this morning and almost came back to edit the post to include that link. Perfect example.

backbencher
08-09-2010, 02:02 PM
I read that after I posted this morning and almost came back to edit the post to include that link. Perfect example.

Nah, the sample size for NFL kickers is too small to prove anything. Therefore it must be random noise.

osuceltic
08-09-2010, 02:33 PM
Nah, the sample size for NFL kickers is too small to prove anything. Therefore it must be random noise.

Clearly. Too bad no one told Kaeding. He could have saved a lot of coin on psych sessions.

Redhook
08-09-2010, 06:11 PM
I guess I'm a little surprised that anyone would suggest that pressure or "clutch" (which really just means dealing with pressure well) do not exist.

First of all, great post! Second, people that claim pressure or clutch doesn't exist haven't played sports at a high level. They're both very real and occur quite often.

jojo
08-09-2010, 06:16 PM
First of all, great post! Second, people that claim pressure or clutch doesn't exist haven't played sports at a high level. They're both very real and occur quite often.

Or maybe they have and they think the individuals who would fit a "Lidge narrative" are extremely rare if they exist at all.... Pressure or the anticipation of competition? By the time a player takes Lidge's journey to the at bat against Pujols in 2005, it's not likely that player is a shrinking violet who will expand and contract afterward.... It's a narrative, the easy story that a reasonable person could easily conclude makes no real sense on the face of it.

lollipopcurve
08-09-2010, 06:27 PM
It's a narrative, the easy story that a reasonable person could easily conclude makes no real sense on the face of it.

Perhaps some professionals fail more frequently than others because the pressure to perform at that level hinders their natural ability more so than it does other professionals.

Or, do we reject all possible explanations as "narratives" if they cannot be proved via a statistic?

TheNext44
08-09-2010, 06:30 PM
I agree with you that they are rere at the major league level, for the exact reason you state, that it takes a certain amount of dealing with pressure to succeed in the majors.

But there are more of these narratives (facts) than you think. And plenty enough for them not to be dismissed as a myth or media spin.

Joey Votto, Zach Greinke, and K. Greene are just recent extreme examples that we are aware of. I have to image there are quite a few more that don't want their story public, or that are less extreme, but just as real and meaningful.

jojo
08-09-2010, 06:33 PM
Perhaps some professionals fail more frequently than others because the pressure to perform at that level hinders their natural ability more so than it does other professionals.

Or, do we reject all possible explanations as "narratives" if they cannot be proved via a statistic?

It's pretty clear from this discussion that the point was that if Lidge is the quintessential example used to support the effect of "character/intangibles", then the concept isn't a compelling one because Lidge actually performed at an extremely high level on the most pressure-impacted stage possible-after he was proclaimed a choker....

It makes no sense that he wilted then was a rock and now is wilting again when the simple explanation can readily be supplied via stats.... i.e. randomness, volatility associated with small innings, and command.

It's not as romantic but it's much more believable.

jojo
08-09-2010, 06:36 PM
I agree with you that they are rere at the major league level, for the exact reason you state, that it takes a certain amount of dealing with pressure to succeed in the majors.

But there are more of these narratives (facts) than you think. And plenty enough for them not to be dismissed as a myth or media spin.

Joey Votto, Zach Greinke, and K. Greene are just recent extreme examples that we are aware of. I have to image there are quite a few more that don't want their story public, or that are less extreme, but just as real and meaningful.

Votto isn't lacking in intangibles. His father died... That's not the same thing as arguing Lidge can't handle giving up a homer....

And this is the problem I have....so many things get glossed over and conflated into an easy narrative.

marcshoe
08-09-2010, 06:39 PM
The argument that by the time players reach the majors they have no problem with pressure is like saying that by the time they reach the majors, they have no problem with talent. the continuum is smaller, but it is still a continuum, with players on the high and low end and a sometimes obvious separation.

TheNext44
08-09-2010, 06:45 PM
Votto isn't lacking in intangibles. His father died... That's not the same thing as arguing Lidge can't handle giving up a homer....

And this is the problem I have....so many things get glossed over and conflated into an easy narrative.

Not to pick on Votto, but he wasn't the only MLB player to have his father die when he was playing. He's the only one that we know of that had to miss playing time because of it. And anyone who had dealt with depression knows that Votto's father tying was not the real issue, it just was a spark that lit an already well built powder keg.

Anyway, we can debate each player, one by one, but it really would be a waste of time, because it ignores the real issue that there are just too many of these stories to ignore, or to classify as a myth or media spin, or anything else other than waht they are. A real issue that impacts the game in a very meaningful manner.

jojo
08-09-2010, 06:49 PM
Not to pick on Votto, but he wasn't the only MLB player to have his father die when he was playing. He's the only one that we know of that had to miss playing time because of it. And anyone who had dealt with depression knows that Votto's father tying was not the real issue, it just was a spark that lit an already well built powder keg.

Anyway, we can debate each player, one by one, but it really would be a waste of time, because it ignores the real issue that there are just too many of these stories to ignore, or to classify as a myth or media spin, or anything else other than waht they are. A real issue that impacts the game in a very meaningful manner.

Depression is a medical condition. It's treatable.

The problem with eschewing specifics in these kinds of discussions is that the specifics are really, really important.

marcshoe
08-09-2010, 07:00 PM
Depression is a medical condition. It's treatable.

The problem with eschewing specifics in these kinds of discussions is that the specifics are really, really important.

Kind of funny, but I was just trying to explain to someone why I didn't get things done in time to get into a doctoral program this semester, mentioning that I wasn't comprehending what I was being told and somehow didn't process the information in time, when it dawned on me what had made the difference--an increase in my depression medication.

One can say that an incident ignites a powder keg, but, as I learn to live with this as a chronic condition that I have to just deal with, I prefer to think that the condition increases the impact of the incident. It is indeed a process, and Votto's being hit hard, then learning what he had to do, seems to be a normal reaction for a person with depressive tendencies.

Each person's condition is unique. I just applaud Votto for getting help and think that if more players did (and more non-players for that matter), careers could be saved.

bucksfan2
08-10-2010, 10:36 AM
It's pretty clear from this discussion that the point was that if Lidge is the quintessential example used to support the effect of "character/intangibles", then the concept isn't a compelling one because Lidge actually performed at an extremely high level on the most pressure-impacted stage possible-after he was proclaimed a choker....

It makes no sense that he wilted then was a rock and now is wilting again when the simple explanation can readily be supplied via stats.... i.e. randomness, volatility associated with small innings, and command.

It's not as romantic but it's much more believable.

You mean to tell me that professional ball players function like robots. No matter what the situation or what type of pressure they all function the same.

As for Lidge he did have one of the best seasons of a closer in recent history. But that was also after a change of teams, divisions, as well as fresh new season to start with.

jojo
08-10-2010, 10:57 AM
You mean to tell me that professional ball players function like robots. No matter what the situation or what type of pressure they all function the same.

As for Lidge he did have one of the best seasons of a closer in recent history. But that was also after a change of teams, divisions, as well as fresh new season to start with.

I mean the shapeshifting narrative doesn't jive with reality regardless of robotic strawmen.

marcshoe
08-15-2010, 12:30 AM
This needs bumped after tonight. You have to get Cordero out of the closer's role, at least for now.

Big Klu
08-15-2010, 12:42 AM
Well, if he were a horse...

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/ProductImages/adhesives/166031.jpg

The Operator
08-15-2010, 12:42 AM
Yes, tonight was ridiculous.

To add insult to injury, he was openly showing disapproval with the umpire on pitches that weren't within a mile of the strike zone. The Reds still escaped with a win thanks to Drew Stubbs' monster HR.

I am encouraged that Dusty pulled Cordero during a save opp. in Chicago. I hope he becomes more and more willing to pull him when this crap happens. Nights like tonight are just unacceptable.

traderumor
08-15-2010, 12:43 AM
I know the booing was productive, it always is. They booed, he threw another ball. But he was sorry. That's good to know.

I am concerned that apologizing closers have lost most of what they need--an unshakeable confidence in their stuff. I don't think managers realize that their insistence on a "closer" is ruining otherwise good relievers by putting them through the meat grinder of the 9th inning in a close game night after night after night.

membengal
08-15-2010, 07:11 AM
I am as frustrated with Cordero as any Reds fan. I think Dusty has to find somone else to close right now, and Dusty has plenty of candidates to choose from.

That said, I cannot underscore enough how much these words from Cordero help address some of my frustration as a fan (from Sheldon's blog):


"I have to stop walking people," Cordero said. "I've got to do that or it's going to be like that every time. I see how upset the fans are with me. I understand that. Every time I walk someone, that guy comes in to score. It's not like I'm giving up a lot of base hits. It's walks. I really don't know what to say about that. It's not my style. It's not me. I've never been like that my whole career. I have to keep working and try to be better every time out."

"I created that myself, walking people. I've got nobody to blame but myself. Putting me in that situation, putting the team in that situation and putting the fans in that situation, it's why they're upset with me right now. I've been walking too many guys. [The fans] have been great, unbelievable to the team. They're coming out on the road, coming out a lot to the stadium. They want to win. Putting the fans in that situation is not fair.

"In the end, we got to go home happy. I know they got to go home happy."

At least I know that Cordero "gets it". Too many times I have seen players in this kind of slump lash out at fans and make a bad situation worse. I am less familiar with players owning their struggles and being this up-front about the issue.

So, I still think Cordero needs to get as far away from the end of games as possible, but I understand better the love his teammates have for him after reading those comments and also understand perhaps why he gets as much leash as he does from Dusty. He's got to be just as stand up in the clubhouse.

Again, that said, if it were me, Massett is closing right now.

mth123
08-15-2010, 07:24 AM
I am as frustrated with Cordero as any Reds fan. I think Dusty has to find somone else to close right now, and Dusty has plenty of candidates to choose from.

That said, I cannot underscore enough how much these words from Cordero help address some of my frustration as a fan (from Sheldon's blog):



At least I know that Cordero "gets it". Too many times I have seen players in this kind of slump lash out at fans and make a bad situation worse. I am less familiar with players owning their struggles and being this up-front about the issue.

So, I still think Cordero needs to get as far away from the end of games as possible, but I understand better the love his teammates have for him after reading those comments and also understand perhaps why he gets as much leash as he does from Dusty. He's got to be just as stand up in the clubhouse.

Again, that said, if it were me, Massett is closing right now.

Agree completely. It would be a pretty bold move in a dogfight, but maybe a phantom DL trip for Cordero to activate Bailey. Let Masset close and Rhodes and Ondrusek can set-up. I'd supplement that move by swapping Chapman for Bray in the Reds pen.

Give Cordero 10 days to rest and then a 5 day rehab where he pitches say 3 times to get some command back. I like that better than putting him in mop-up duty and having to wait for the right game situation to try him out again.

RedLegSuperStar
08-15-2010, 08:03 AM
I don't know if we go LA and put someone else it that role instead of CoCo bit you have to think that the other day when he was brought in and it want a save situation he retired the side in order. It's when the game is on the line that he is buckeling. He has to pitch to some of the guys he is facing. 7,8, and 9 hitters won't do the damage as would the top of the lineup. And if your walking and given up those hits to the bottom of the line up then the top of the order is up.. Your setting yourself up for disaster. I might put Chapman or Masset in that role once or twice a week and give them a chance to prove themselves while slightly sending a message to CoCo. If CoCo starts to fall deep into Danny Graves mode then we have a huge issue on our hands and an expensive one at that.

durl
08-15-2010, 08:05 AM
To add insult to injury, he was openly showing disapproval with the umpire on pitches that weren't within a mile of the strike zone. The Reds still escaped with a win thanks to Drew Stubbs' monster HR.

Brantley even pointed that out during the post-game stuff. Cordero seems to have forgotten where the strike zone is and he needs to change his perspective a bit.

And I agree with others who have said that it's time to give him a break from the closer's role. I just don't see how he can continue these poor outtings during the stretch to the playoffs without getting burned. We need more consistency in August/September.

traderumor
08-15-2010, 08:50 AM
Brantley's comment is really non-sensical. As a former closer, he should know that it isn't just "knowing the strikezone." CoCo is not aggressive, he is passive. The gameplan is simple for the leadoff hitter--unless it is in the middle of the zone, take, you will probably start the rally with a walk. The first few hitters stand there and wait for a walk and often get it. Then, knowing he has to come in now or else, the next three hitters do the damage with a few singles. And please explain to me how anyone with a 95+MPH fastball sets up a slider away by nibbling with the cheese? It very simply appears he has lost his nerve, not trusting his stuff. This is what is so frustrating because that is fixable.

BCubb2003
08-15-2010, 10:38 AM
I think Mark Sheldon had a good point today that Leake had been having trouble because the batters knew where the ball was always going to be -- right around the plate -- and Cordero is having trouble because the batters know he's not throwing strikes. Leake has to learn to be effectively wild and Cordero has to throw strikes.

I think Cordero has lost some of his heat but still tries to throw as hard and has lost command as a result. And the batters aren't chasing.

VR
08-15-2010, 11:55 AM
I think Mark Sheldon had a good point today that Leake had been having trouble because the batters knew where the ball was always going to be -- right around the plate -- and Cordero is having trouble because the batters know he's not throwing strikes. Leake has to learn to be effectively wild and Cordero has to throw strikes.

I think Cordero has lost some of his heat but still tries to throw as hard and has lost command as a result. And the batters aren't chasing.

I believe switching jerseys next time they each pitch would do the trick. Plus it would be. Awesome.

OnBaseMachine
08-15-2010, 09:22 PM
I am as frustrated with Cordero as any Reds fan. I think Dusty has to find somone else to close right now, and Dusty has plenty of candidates to choose from.

That said, I cannot underscore enough how much these words from Cordero help address some of my frustration as a fan (from Sheldon's blog):



At least I know that Cordero "gets it". Too many times I have seen players in this kind of slump lash out at fans and make a bad situation worse. I am less familiar with players owning their struggles and being this up-front about the issue.

So, I still think Cordero needs to get as far away from the end of games as possible, but I understand better the love his teammates have for him after reading those comments and also understand perhaps why he gets as much leash as he does from Dusty. He's got to be just as stand up in the clubhouse.

Again, that said, if it were me, Massett is closing right now.

Agreed, mem. Cordero has been very, very frustrating to watch this season, even moreso the last couple days when I was in attendance and couldn't do my normal routine when Cordero enters the game, which is turn the channel. My heart can't take watching him pitch. And right on cue, he made things very interesting last night and again today. Thankfully he got the job done. For now, I'd like to see him moved to a lower leverage situation and let Masset close some games until Cordero can find his control.

I also agree that it's nice to hear that he understands the fans' frustration. At least he's not out there making bogus excuses and trashing the fans.

The Operator
08-16-2010, 02:39 AM
Someone should forward a copy of Cordero's quotes to Danny Graves. That's how a professional handles fans booing.

marcshoe
08-16-2010, 02:44 AM
that quote shows character; compare to Danny Graves' reaction when he began to lose it.. It seems that maybe it wouldn't be a major deal if they moved him out of the closer's role for a little bit.

fearofpopvol1
09-10-2010, 10:42 PM
Some stats...among all qualifying closers in the Majors (both NL & AL)

Tied for most blown saves
4th Worst WHIP
7th Worst K/9
7th Worst ERA
11th Worst in BA allowed

Perhaps Cordero's best stat is that he tied for 5th in saves.

I could be wrong, but another important stat is I believe he is the highest paid closer. I could be wrong about that, I don't know for sure. If he isn't the highest paid, he's near the top.

Walt should make it a top priority to move Cordero this offseason, even if the Reds pay half his salary next year.

NJReds
09-10-2010, 10:47 PM
Some stats...among all qualifying closers in the Majors (both NL & AL)

Tied for most blown saves
4th Worst WHIP
7th Worst K/9
7th Worst ERA
11th Worst in BA allowed

Perhaps Cordero's best stat is that he tied for 5th in saves.

I could be wrong, but another important stat is I believe he is the highest paid closer. I could be wrong about that, I don't know for sure. If he isn't the highest paid, he's near the top.

Walt should make it a top priority to move Cordero this offseason, even if the Reds pay half his salary next year.

We could trade him to the Mets for K-Rod, who's basically written his ticket out of town. Of course, he suffers from the same problem as Cordero ... doesn't have the stuff that he used to and blows saves or at least makes every save an adventure.

HokieRed
09-10-2010, 10:49 PM
I'd let Chapman close from here to the season's end.

edabbs44
09-10-2010, 10:59 PM
Cordero has been just fine over the last 2 months. He's allowed a hiccup now and again. And don't forget, if you move Chapman to closer, you can't use him to face Adrian Gonzalez with the bases juiced in the 7th.

traderumor
09-10-2010, 11:20 PM
Hmmm, three weeks between posts in this thread. I guess this was the first time he stunk it up in awhile.

oregonred
09-10-2010, 11:26 PM
Hmmm, three weeks between posts in this thread. I guess this was the first time he stunk it up in awhile.

First save opportunity since August 30th. Blew a gimmee save against a 14-53 road team and fortunately Dusty yanked him in time to keep the game winnable.

Cedric
09-10-2010, 11:28 PM
Without changing the archaic way managers think and GM's pay, there is nothing you can do.

oregonred
09-10-2010, 11:30 PM
With Rhodes being gimpy, gotta keep CoCo as the closer for now. Chapman arrived just in time. Ridiculous 10th inning for Chapman tonight. Filthy.

traderumor
09-10-2010, 11:34 PM
First save opportunity since August 30th. Blew a gimmee save against a 14-53 road team and fortunately Dusty yanked him in time to keep the game winnable.My point no one bothered to post on here until he didn't get the job done. He had been nails since the awful outing in Chicago, thus the 3 weeks of silence until tonight. I just find that kind of complaining about a player as so much white noise.

Reds Freak
09-10-2010, 11:36 PM
You have to make sure he gets his work in. When he has six days off, he struggles. I know it's tough because you never know when you're going to have save situations, but it would have been nice to get him an inning in one of those Colorado blow outs...

oregonred
09-10-2010, 11:40 PM
The good news is his control appears to be better even though his fastball is straight as an arrow. Again it was a 2-strike count that started the hit barrage in the 9th.

First save oppty since Aug 30th and he promptly yields 4 hits in a row and gets yanked with 1/3 IP against the absolute worst team in baseball. In a game the team absolutely had to close out to bust out of a funk. Lucky for all, Rhodes saved the day and the club wins it in extras.

traderumor
09-10-2010, 11:44 PM
His problem tonight was getting the ball up. The Pirates just slapped the high fastballs into the outfield with little effort. I was also waiting and waiting and waiting for him to throw something crooked to get them off the fastball, then when he finally did throw a slider, it was pitiful.

HokieRed
09-10-2010, 11:49 PM
In fairness to CoCo, he has been a lot better recently and it had been a while since his last save opp. So for me the serious question is about whether to keep using him to close or turn to Chapman. It's not a matter of faulting CoCo but trying to use the better pitcher right now--whichever that is.

traderumor
09-10-2010, 11:51 PM
In fairness to CoCo, he has been a lot better recently and it had been a while since his last save opp. So for me the serious question is about whether to keep using him to close or turn to Chapman. It's not a matter of faulting CoCo but trying to use the better pitcher right now--whichever that is.Sure is an exciting thought isn't it? I don't think it would phase him, either.

marcshoe
09-11-2010, 12:02 AM
I'd like to see them go away from having one designated closer in the postseason, using Cordero, Massett, and Chapman as the situation warrants. Start working on this in the last couple of weeks in the season.

HokieRed
09-11-2010, 12:04 AM
I'm really still focused on the season. Lots of grinding still to be done.

oregonred
09-11-2010, 12:09 AM
I'm really still focused on the season. Lots of grinding still to be done.

Yep. Gotta take care of business this weekend and get this thing to 7 or 8-up to closeout the weekend.

The schedule turns more favorable for STL after this weekend, and the Braves face Lohse and Westbrook the next two days.

Good news is the Cardinals have no off days the rest of the way. Gotta think they'll wear down a bit, maybe it is happening a bit with Garcia and maybe Wainwright/Carp a tad. Amazing the younger Reds are the walking wounded yet the Redbirds Big 4 seem to always be 100%.

Garcia's innings are really being stretched this season. They have no choice.

TheNext44
09-11-2010, 12:09 AM
He didn't walk anyone, he just got hit. I'm less worried about that. In fact, I'm not worried unless this starts to be a pattern. We'll see.

oregonred
09-11-2010, 12:14 AM
He didn't walk anyone, he just got hit. I'm less worried about that. In fact, I'm not worried unless this starts to be a pattern. We'll see.

True, but he was given the Dusty mercy rule with only 33% of the necessary outs being recorded in the inning. I am confident he would have managed a base on balls or three if allowed to finish the inning...

fearofpopvol1
09-11-2010, 12:39 AM
My point no one bothered to post on here until he didn't get the job done. He had been nails since the awful outing in Chicago, thus the 3 weeks of silence until tonight. I just find that kind of complaining about a player as so much white noise.

My point is his season stats absolutely stink. And he's being paid a boatload of money to put up those stats. Sure, he's pitched better of late, and that's great, but who cares? We look at season stats for a reason.

Brutus
09-11-2010, 12:45 AM
My point is his season stats absolutely stink. And he's being paid a boatload of money to put up those stats. Sure, he's pitched better of late, and that's great, but who cares? We look at season stats for a reason.

Absolutely stink? Isn't that stretching it a bit?

3.75 ERA

53 Ks in 62 innings

Only 5 homers allowed

The guy has been anything but dominant, but absolutely stink? Those numbers aren't bad.

traderumor
09-11-2010, 12:52 AM
My point is his season stats absolutely stink. And he's being paid a boatload of money to put up those stats. Sure, he's pitched better of late, and that's great, but who cares? We look at season stats for a reason.I would be quite fine if he pitches his best ball the last two months of the season, wouldn't you? Doesn't it matter that he has been better in the last three weeks than he was the rest of the season as we head into the stretch run and hopefully playoffs?

Now, if you are talking about investing money in Cordero for a bullpen job, then by all means, trot out the whole body of work. But with the postseason looming, I'm glad that tonight was the first one of these in awhile, and that a few bloop hits were his demise and not from self inflicted walks.

fearofpopvol1
09-11-2010, 01:00 AM
Absolutely stink? Isn't that stretching it a bit?

3.75 ERA

53 Ks in 62 innings

Only 5 homers allowed

The guy has been anything but dominant, but absolutely stink? Those numbers aren't bad.

Yes, I would say so. He has been 0.3 WAR. He has basically been a neutral pitcher this year. He has been worth $1.4M and is getting bad over $12M.

This has been the worst year of his career since he's been a full-time pitcher/reliever. Look up his career stats. Further, compare him to other closers this year...the proof is in the puddin.

fearofpopvol1
09-11-2010, 01:01 AM
I would be quite fine if he pitches his best ball the last two months of the season, wouldn't you? Doesn't it matter that he has been better in the last three weeks than he was the rest of the season as we head into the stretch run and hopefully playoffs?

Now, if you are talking about investing money in Cordero for a bullpen job, then by all means, trot out the whole body of work. But with the postseason looming, I'm glad that tonight was the first one of these in awhile, and that a few bloop hits were his demise and not from self inflicted walks.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you've said...but I'm not sure this instance won't be the first of more to come. His season splits would suggest that he's bound to continue imploding.

westofyou
09-11-2010, 01:06 AM
Throws his slider less than he use to


Francisco Cordero
2007
Overall
Total Pitches 1048
Fastball 531 51.00%
Changeup 25 2.00%
Slider 480 46.00%
Split Finger 2 0.00%
Not Charted 10 1.00%

vs. RHB vs. LHB
Total Pitches 557 491
Outs Recorded 110 80
Fastball 270 48.00% 261 53.00%
Changeup 0 0.00% 25 5.00%
Slider 281 50.00% 199 41.00%
Split Finger 0 0.00% 2 0.00%
Not Charted 6 1.00% 4 1.00%


Francisco Cordero
2008
Overall
Total Pitches 1272
Fastball 649 51.00%
Changeup 121 10.00%
Slider 465 37.00%
Split Finger 12 1.00%
Pitchout 3 0.00%
Not Charted 22 2.00%


vs. RHB vs. LHB
Total Pitches 708 564
Outs Recorded 116 95
Fastball 365 52.00% 284 50.00%
Changeup 4 1.00% 117 21.00%
Slider 330 47.00% 135 24.00%
Split Finger 0 0.00% 12 2.00%
Pitchout 2 0.00% 1 0.00%
Not Charted 7 1.00% 15 3.00%

Francisco Cordero
2009
Overall
Total Pitches 1108
Fastball 689 62.00%
Changeup 104 9.00%
Slider 283 26.00%
Not Charted 32 3.00%


vs. RHB vs. LHB
Total Pitches 497 611
Outs Recorded 104 96
Fastball 275 55.00% 414 68.00%
Changeup 13 3.00% 91 15.00%
Slider 199 40.00% 84 14.00%
Not Charted 10 2.00% 22 4.00%


Francisco Cordero
2010
Overall
Total Pitches 1131
Fastball 747 66.00%
Changeup 76 7.00%
Slider 299 26.00%
Not Charted 9 1.00%


vs. RHB vs. LHB
Total Pitches 593 538
Outs Recorded 109 78
Fastball 342 58.00% 405 75.00%
Changeup 3 1.00% 73 14.00%
Slider 246 41.00% 53 10.00%
Not Charted 2 0.00% 7 1.00%

corkedbat
09-11-2010, 01:08 AM
In the past he has had a bit of an issue with going through streaks of BBs and giving up HRs. This year though he seems to be missing fewer bats. I see him as being less able to just over power guys and I only see that continuing. Maybe we should Danny Graves him and move him to the rotation. :D

jojo
09-11-2010, 05:44 PM
I would be quite fine if he pitches his best ball the last two months of the season, wouldn't you? Doesn't it matter that he has been better in the last three weeks than he was the rest of the season as we head into the stretch run and hopefully playoffs?

Now, if you are talking about investing money in Cordero for a bullpen job, then by all means, trot out the whole body of work. But with the postseason looming, I'm glad that tonight was the first one of these in awhile, and that a few bloop hits were his demise and not from self inflicted walks.

I think here is the concern about Cordero as a closer... He's having a pretty miserable year concerning his peripherals. Lance Mac points to his 11 straight saves before last night as an important bellwether to support Cordero and some have suggested he had a nice August. But his August numbers where largely influenced by a HR/FB%=0 and an unsustainable, low BABIP.

I think he gets extra credit for experience in the eyes of many but looking at the things he can control while on the mound, he's less sledgehammer and more ticking hand grenade and it's a decent bet that the Reds will lose an arm trying to throw him...

reds44
09-11-2010, 05:48 PM
That was Cordero's first blown save since the break. It's fine.

nemesis
09-11-2010, 05:51 PM
That was Cordero's first blown save since the break. It's fine.

In some regards your right. But, he tends to be very streaky. Dominate for a month couldn't get out the dead the next. I would really hate to see Cordero start to slide into a funk at Playoff time. He needs to be as solid as can be without these hiccups to give the fanbase, his teammates and his manager faith in him. Cause it isn't there.

The Voice of IH
09-11-2010, 10:00 PM
That was Cordero's first blown save since the break. It's fine.

This, Cordero has been on fire, please everyone take a breath in, and now out :p:

traderumor
09-11-2010, 10:56 PM
I'm starting to see Dusty falling in love with Chapman. Don't be surprised if he isn't weening him into some 9th inning appearances and see if he can use him there in the playoffs.

Griffey012
09-12-2010, 01:27 AM
Wasn't surprised at all too see Coco not looking so sharp, he hadn't pitched in 6 days.

WebScorpion
09-12-2010, 01:40 AM
Wasn't surprised at all too see Coco not looking so sharp, he hadn't pitched in 6 days.
That's what I was thinking too, but I just don't know why Dusty didn't pull him before it was tied... I wish he'd keep him on a shorter leash, but he won't because he thinks it would damage CoCo's confidence. Doesn't leaving him in until the save is blown damage his confidence?? :dunno:

HokieRed
09-12-2010, 03:49 PM
Might as well get this thread bumped and ready to go.

oregonred
09-12-2010, 03:53 PM
Might as well get this thread bumped and ready to go.

Pitiful, disgusting but not surprised at all unfortunately.

On a 1-2 count. No command or movement so he just can't put people away anymore.

HokieRed
09-12-2010, 03:55 PM
Pitiful, disgusting but not surprised at all unfortunately.

On a 1-2 count. No command or movement so he just can't put people away anymore.

Note I bumped the thread after the first two batters. Obvious what was coming.

oregonred
09-12-2010, 04:02 PM
Note I bumped the thread after the first two batters. Obvious what was coming.

Yep, but allowing a bases clearing double after an 0-2 count makes it all the more disgusting.

This club needs a wakeup call. And fast...

Gomes as cleanup hitter. LOL.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 04:12 PM
Even more telling for Cordero, is the massive drop off over the last three or four years in his strikeout rate. Today, for the third straight day, he struck out nobody. Actually, he has no strike outs yet this month, in five appearances.

Cordero's strikeout (K/9) rate:
2007: 12.22
2008: 9.98
2009: 7.83
2010: 7.49 (Before today)

Cordero's walk (BB/9) rate:
2007: 2.56
2008: 4.86
2009: 4.05
2010: 4.95 (Before today)

Strike out and walk rates are an important indicator of pitcher effectiveness, because these stats are not luck related like BABIP.

You simply cannot be an effective closer if you walk five guys per nine, and only strike out seven and a half per nine.

fearofpopvol1
09-12-2010, 04:22 PM
Cordero now has the distinction of blowing the most saves of any closer in all of MLB this season.

As I said yesterday, Walt needs to get rid of him during the off season, even if the Reds pay half or 2/3 of his salary next year.

Additionally, Dusty would be wise to move forward with a closer by committee.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 04:22 PM
He is done. I loved Dusty acting upset after the bases clearing double as if everybody didn't know what was coming. It's your fault for refusing to remove him from the role, skip. And I've been a big Dusty fan this year, but this Cordero as closer crap has to end.

He should have pulled after the first two reached. Everybody and their brother knew he was going to blow it. It was just a matter of when, how, and how epic.

alloverjr
09-12-2010, 04:23 PM
5775

whoops :D

Oxilon
09-12-2010, 04:23 PM
Francisco Cordero:
63.2 IP: 1.46 WHIP, .242 OPP BA, 3.68 ERA

Now, look back at the five previous World Series winners and their closer's numbers for the season.

Mariano Rivera:
66.1 IP: .90 WHIP, .197 OPP BA, 1.76 ERA

Brad Lidge:
69.1 IP: 1.23 WHIP, .198 OPP BA, 1.95 ERA

Jonathan Papelbon:
58.1 IP: .77 WHIP, .136 OPP BA, 1.85 ERA

Adam Wainwright: (*Isringhausen missed entire Postseason)
9.2 IP: .93 WHIP, .237 OPP BA, 0.00 ERA

Bobby Jenks:
39.1 IP: 1.25 WHIP, .225 OPP BA, 2.75 ERA

It's pretty evident that you need a good closer if you want to win a World Series. And I'm not saying Chapman is the solution -- just that Cordero certainly isn't it either.

fearofpopvol1
09-12-2010, 04:26 PM
He is done. I loved Dusty acting upset after the bases clearing double as if everybody didn't know what was coming. It's your fault for refusing to remove him from the role, skip. And I've been a big Dusty fan this year, but this Cordero as closer crap has to end.

He should have pulled after the first two reached. Everybody and their brother knew he was going to blow it. It was just a matter of when, how, and how epic.

I don't really blame Dusty too much on this one. Dusty pulled Cordero yesterday. And to be honest, there weren't too many reliable options in the bullpen. Masset and Chapman couldn't pitch. Ondrusek had already pitched.

I give Dusty the benefit of the doubt on this until the next time he's in this spot and how he handles it.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 04:30 PM
Dusty didn't pull CoCo Friday until he already blew the save, though.

Jordan Smith would have been a fine option. He already cleaned up one of CoCo's messes earlier this season for his first MLB save.

Cedric
09-12-2010, 04:32 PM
Dusty won't do anything about CoCo. He will make excuses and show no vision.

It's time to quit worrying about money and make the best decision for the team.

MWM
09-12-2010, 05:17 PM
It's clear he can't be the post-season closer. Anyone can see that. He hasn't just looked shaky, he's looked god-awful for a couple of months now with the exception of a few game stretch where he looked good. The guy is simply not a "closer" right now. I'd call him an opener, if anything.

dsmith421
09-12-2010, 05:47 PM
For all the positive attributes that Dusty has brought to the organization, this is one area where I have little confidence he'll make a change. I loathe the save statistic.

Jpup
09-12-2010, 06:12 PM
Logan Ondrusek is my nominee. I have supported Cordero as much as anyone, but it's time to do something different.

Griffey012
09-12-2010, 06:15 PM
What to do with Cordero....pray, and pray some more.

Griffey012
09-12-2010, 06:18 PM
Not really in defense of Cordero, but Masset has not be good his last few appearances either. But I would like to see Masset close down some games, IMHO he has the stuff to be a very very good closer. And Cordero doesn't.

fearofpopvol1
09-12-2010, 06:21 PM
Welp, here's the answer...and some were spot-on with their assessment...

Baker on Cordero: "We need him badly because he’s our closer. Nobody else is really ready to close."

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/09/postgame_baker_behind_cordero.html

Griffey012
09-12-2010, 06:27 PM
Welp, here's the answer...and some were spot-on with their assessment...

Baker on Cordero: "We need him badly because hes our closer. Nobody else is really ready to close."

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/09/postgame_baker_behind_cordero.html

What does that even mean? C'mon Dusty I have supported you all season, don't make me look stupid now by making stupid comments.

Superdude
09-12-2010, 06:28 PM
I don't see why Masset's not ready. He's had an up and down year, but his peripherals are good and he's had plenty of experience pitching in high leverage situations, albeit not save situations. Today was bad, but that kinda thing would be downright heartbreaking in October.

Tom Servo
09-12-2010, 06:31 PM
I'm so done with Cordero.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 06:32 PM
There are plenty of other guys "ready" to close. Chapman closed in the minors. Masset bailed CoCo out of a near-blown save in Chicago back in August. Smith cleaned up a near blown save earlier in the summer, too... I think in Oakland. Rhodes could close.

Really, it doesn't matter if someone else is "ready". What matters is that Cordero's performance is saying "I can't do this any more."

fearofpopvol1
09-12-2010, 06:43 PM
I don't see why Masset's not ready. He's had an up and down year, but his peripherals are good and he's had plenty of experience pitching in high leverage situations, albeit not save situations. Today was bad, but that kinda thing would be downright heartbreaking in October.

Masset is more than capable. I do like Maset as that guy that comes in during tough spots, but I would much rather him shut down games than Cordero. Dusty is sticking with his vet and his love for counting stats.

nemesis
09-12-2010, 06:43 PM
I was actually more miffed at Cordero's comment that it wasn't like he was pitching to his little boy he was pitching to a big league hitter. Refering McCutchen and the 3 run double...

Um, CoCo your little boy would hit that meatball on a 1-2 count... It ha dnothing to do with him being a big league hitter, it had more to do with that was a little league pitch.

Cooper
09-12-2010, 06:47 PM
May have been already posted: Coco's numbers with Hanigan catching are a heckuva lot better than with Ramon catching. Some of that could be written off as bad luck (BaBIP), but even his K/9inn, K/BB, H/IP ratios are a lot better. maybe the problem gets fixed if Hanigan is behind the plate.

Always Red
09-12-2010, 07:10 PM
Why has he stopped throwing the slider? Any ideas?

His fastball doesn't move enough for him to rely solely on that, and at 94-95, he doesn't throw hard enough when they're waiting on the cheese. That's Todd Coffey material right there (I loved TC, but he through that meat right down Broadway).

perplexing. :confused:

Cordero will be the man, through the end of this year, whenever that is. Better hope he figures it out...

Cedric
09-12-2010, 07:35 PM
Why has he stopped throwing the slider? Any ideas?

His fastball doesn't move enough for him to rely solely on that, and at 94-95, he doesn't throw hard enough when they're waiting on the cheese. That's Todd Coffey material right there (I loved TC, but he through that meat right down Broadway).

perplexing. :confused:

Cordero will be the man, through the end of this year, whenever that is. Better hope he figures it out...

His slider has been horrendous all year, IMO. He spins it up there and it gets clobbered.

Today he gave up the game on a 1-2 cement mix slider.

Cooper
09-12-2010, 08:15 PM
WOY...any way to see if he throws the slider more with hanigan than hernandez...i may be reaching.

dsmith421
09-12-2010, 08:26 PM
I can't believe a man as intelligent as Dusty Baker actually believes that complete garbage. I'm going to assume he's just protecting Cordero from the press.

Because when I see Cordero, I see an obese man with a straight as an arrow fastball and a slider that may as well be sitting on a tee. He takes minutes between pitches because he's literally afraid to throw the ball. He just got shelled twice in the course of 72 hours by a team that could well lose 110 games. And if he was making the league minimum instead of a zillion dollars, his fat backside would have been DFAed months ago.

Don't give me this "not ready to close" crap. Masset and Chapman have shown they have the stuff and the killer instinct to pitch the ninth inning.

BCubb2003
09-12-2010, 08:27 PM
Didn't he supposedly fix his problems recently? There was talk of that, and he had a couple of good innings. My theory is that he simply can't throw like he used to and when he tries, he overthrows and loses command. When he tries to regain his command, he becomes hittable.

OnBaseMachine
09-12-2010, 10:04 PM
I'm sick of it. Cordero no longer has an out pitch. I could see that blown save coming from a mile away. As McCutchen stepped in, I looked at dad and predicted McCutchen would hit a grand slam. I was wrong, he only hit a three run double. Even after he got ahead of McCutchen 0-2, I still had a bad feeling about it because he simply doesn't have an out pitch. I was just hoping McCutchen would hit a bullett right at somebody ... but no such luck. Cordero should immediately be pulled from the closers role. It should have happened a month ago.

corkedbat
09-12-2010, 10:34 PM
I have serious doubts about whether Walt can move Cordero this offseason and I have even less hope that they will eat his contract, but I'd be estatic if they could move him this offseason.

Coco returning would not bother me that much, despite his contract, if I thought he were just going through a bad patch and he would recover, but I just think he doesn't miss bats anymore and they aren't swinging at his pitches outside the strike zone like they used to.

If, by some miracle, they do move him, I'd like to see them do something like approach Zona with a deal like Huston Street for prospects. On the rightside, I'd let Masset, Street, Arrendando, Ondrusek, Smith and Fisher battle for four or five spots.

On the left, like many, I'd like to see Chapman return to the starter's role, but I get the feling that the front office doesn't see this as a temporary thing. I'd sign Rhodes for another year, if not there is still Bray and Valliquette too, but I'd like to see them fast track Joseph.

HokieRed
09-12-2010, 10:36 PM
Whatever plans you want to make for 2011, they'd better include Cordero, because there's no way any other team is going to be stupid enough to take that contract (or even a decent size piece of it).

oregonred
09-12-2010, 10:36 PM
Amazing that we've got a team 6-up with 19 left and 30% of the team's salary has contributed virtually nothing over the course of the season, and probably actually a negative impact in total to the overall greater cause. (CoCo, Harang, Lincoln)

CoCo is immovable in the offseason. We are stuck with this act in 2011.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 10:41 PM
If, by some miracle, they do move him, I'd like to see them do something like approach Zona with a deal like Huston Street for prospects. On the rightside, I'd let Masset, Street, Arrendando, Ondrusek, Smith and Fisher battle for four or five spots.Isn't Huston Street a Rockie? I doubt they'd trade him as they expect to be contenders most years but you never know.

The Operator
09-12-2010, 10:43 PM
CoCo is immovable in the offseason. We are stuck with this act in 2011.Let the lesson of The CoCo Disaster be a harsh reminder for future generations: Small market teams can't pay top dollar for closers. Especially a closer who really only had 1 elite year.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 10:49 PM
Let the lesson of The CoCo Disaster be a harsh reminder for future generations: Small market teams can't pay top dollar for closers. Especially a closer who really only had 1 elite year.

Not exactly a new lesson though. Many of us said the same thing when he was signed. Also, see Moneyball. Billy Beane created closers in order to sell them. As Michael Lewis puts it: "Established closers were systematically overpriced, in large part because of the statistic by which closers were judged in the marketplace: 'saves.' The very word made the guy who achieved them seem vitally important.... You could take a slightly above average pitcher and drop him into the closer's role, let him accumulate some gaudy number of saves, and then sell him off. You could, in essence, buy a stock, pump it up with false publicity, and sell it off for much more than you paid for it."

corkedbat
09-12-2010, 10:50 PM
Isn't Huston Street a Rockie? I doubt they'd trade him as they expect to be contenders most years but you never know.

you're right on both counts

paulrichjr
09-12-2010, 11:39 PM
What is different in Dusty's mind about Harang/Leake/Volquez when they were removed for poor performance fairly quickly and CoCo's situation? I honestly can't see how he can do the right thing in those situations and yet cannot even consider moving someone else into the closer role.

Cedric
09-12-2010, 11:40 PM
What is different in Dusty's mind about Harang/Leake/Volquez when they were removed for poor performance fairly quickly and CoCo's situation? I honestly can't see how he can do the right thing in those situations and yet cannot even consider moving someone else into the closer role.

Jocketty took the decision out of his hands there.

TheNext44
09-12-2010, 11:42 PM
Jocketty took the decision out of his hands there.

No reason he can't do it again. Cordero to the DL is the only way he doesn't close games foe the Reds and probably the only way the Reds go deep into the playoffs, if they make them.

mbgrayson
09-12-2010, 11:53 PM
What is different in Dusty's mind about Harang/Leake/Volquez when they were removed for poor performance fairly quickly and CoCo's situation? I honestly can't see how he can do the right thing in those situations and yet cannot even consider moving someone else into the closer role.

Compare how Cordero looks this year, with David Weathers in 2007, the last year he closed for the Reds, and the year before we signed Coco:

2010 Cordero: 64.2 IP, 35 saves, 8 blown saves, 4.04 ERA, 1.50 WHIP, 53 Ks, 36 BBs, 61 hits, 5 HRs. Salary $12.125 million.

2007 Weathers: 77.2 IP, 33 saves, 6 blown saves, 3.59 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 48 Ks, 27 BBs, 67 hits, 4 HRs. Salary $2.3 million.

Looking at that performance, they really need to make the decision to move on.

Griffey012
09-12-2010, 11:57 PM
Compare how Cordero looks this year, with David Weathers in 2007, the last year he closed for the Reds, and the year before we signed Coco:

2010 Cordero: 64.2 IP, 35 saves, 8 blown saves, 4.04 ERA, 1.50 WHIP, 53 Ks, 36 BBs, 61 hits, 5 HRs. Salary $12.125 million.

2007 Weathers: 77.2 IP, 33 saves, 6 blown saves, 3.59 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 48 Ks, 27 BBs, 67 hits, 4 HRs. Salary $2.3 million.

Looking at that performance, they really need to make the decision to move on.

It's amazing how times have changed since then. Our bullpen was downright pitiful that year, with Weathers being solid. Now we have a gluttony of good arms in the pen.

CoCo definitely was a big benefit the our team and bullpen the past 2 seasons (not that it mattered), but with the increased depth and new additions of power arms like Masset and Chapman. His time has passed, or he at least needs some time off to try and get his stuff straight.

sivman17
09-13-2010, 12:05 AM
What is different in Dusty's mind about Harang/Leake/Volquez when they were removed for poor performance fairly quickly and CoCo's situation? I honestly can't see how he can do the right thing in those situations and yet cannot even consider moving someone else into the closer role.

That's a very good comparison. The other pitchers that haven't performed have sat or been sent down to AAA. Why aren't we doing the same with Cordero? Makes no sense. I really feel like they should use Chapman in the closer role down the stretch and if he does well then he should be the man in the playoffs.

There is no way we can rely on Cordero in the playoffs. Can you imagine if we lose a playoff game and/or series because of Cordero? Cincinnati faithful has been calling for his beheading alllllll season, but Dusty and Walt won't do anything about it. Dusty saying "no one else is ready" is a load of crap. If no one else is ready, then what is Cordero? He's pathetic. He's terrible. He's unreliable. The last thing I want in the playoffs is a pathetic, terrible, unreliable closer.

marcshoe
09-13-2010, 12:25 AM
In spite of Masset's recent poor outings, I still trust him more than Cordero at this point. I'm not sure why I'm reluctant to give the job to Chapman until the end of the year. I probably shouldn't be.

In spite of what Dusty said, I don't think he'll go with Cordero much longer. He's said similar things before taking action a couple of times this year, such as when he seemed hesitant to move Phillips to leadoff.

Wheelhouse
09-13-2010, 12:27 AM
Someone needs to tell Dusty this is not a "people" issue. It's a physics and biology issue. Coco is a pitcher in decline: his fastball has reduced movement, and he has trouble placing it, and his slider has lost it's snap. Whatever he had is gone, and it''s not coming back after some sessions with Price, and it's not coming back by sticking with him and giving him confidence. He's a pitcher who's arm is simply older and declining quickly, not helped by the fact that he's in terrible shape. I'm sure Coco is a great clubhouse guy, but ultimately the "clubhouse guy" you are will come down to your performance on the field. He cares so much about how Coco feels, but what about the starters who bust their butts for 6 or 7 innings and are up for arbitration where their win numbers are being considered? Coco is taking money from those guys contracts next year. How 'bout feeling bad for them? Now, Dusty should not be worried about putting too much pressure on Chapman. Pressure for Chapman is having to evade Castro's secret police this past year when he defected. Stress is having to leave your pregnant wife for an uncertain future and possibly being thrown in prison for trying to do so. Pitching in a BASEBALL GAME is not pressure or stress for Aroldis Chapman.

cincrazy
09-13-2010, 12:49 AM
The more saves he blows right now the better. That increases our chances of NOT seeing him in October.

WVRedsFan
09-13-2010, 12:56 AM
Pennant race. Blowing saves againsgt maybe the worst team in MLB. Manager (like most managers--remember the love for Patterson, Freel, Castro and others) doesn't have a clue = recipe for disaster.

This lead is not safe, but listening to Mercker on the radio today, we have to stick with Codero. Yep. And Mercker was a Cy Young winner.

Kc61
09-13-2010, 12:57 AM
All the talk about Coco's contract, the philosophy of a closer, etc., seem beside the point IMO.

The issue here is that Coco has become less than reliable to finish close games. He doesn't miss bats consistently anymore. To put it simply, he is too hittable.

The answer likely is not to replace him totally. Baker said that Coco is his closer, and I accept that.

The answer is to start mixing in Masset as closer from time to time.

Coco has now worked three days in a row. Time for a rest. Let Masset close tomorrow if needed. Let Chapman set him up in the eighth.

WVRedsFan
09-13-2010, 01:02 AM
All the talk about Coco's contract, the philosophy of a closer, etc., seem beside the point IMO.

The issue here is that Coco has become less than reliable to finish close games.

The answer likely is not to replace him totally. Baker said that Coco is his closer, and I accept that.

The answer is to start mixing in Masset as closer from time to time.

Coco has now worked three days in a row. Time for a rest. Let Masset close tomorrow if needed. Let Chapman set him up in the eighth.

Masset? Yes, he a better choice than Codero, but really? The closer is here, at least for the rest of the season in Chapman. Use him and over the winter make sure he is the ace starter next year. Or lose games like this (and nearly another in this series) because you're so bullheaded to believe that Codero "is my closer." Bull Defication.

WVRedsFan
09-13-2010, 01:12 AM
All the talk about Coco's contract, the philosophy of a closer, etc., seem beside the point IMO.

The issue here is that Coco has become less than reliable to finish close games.

The answer likely is not to replace him totally. Baker said that Coco is his closer, and I accept that.

The answer is to start mixing in Masset as closer from time to time.

Coco has now worked three days in a row. Time for a rest. Let Masset close tomorrow if needed. Let Chapman set him up in the eighth.

Masset? Yes, he a better choice than Codero, but really? The closer is here, at least for the rest of the season in Chapman. Use him and over the winter make sure he is the ace starter next year. Or lose games like this (and nearly another in this series) because you're so bullheaded to believe that Codero "is my closer." Bull Defication.

Redlegs
09-13-2010, 01:28 AM
Masset would be my guy at this point. Although, closing is a lot different than holding or setting up. A few years ago, everyone wanted a guy named Todd Coffey to close. He had an era in the 1's. When he got his opportunity, he was different guy. I know Coco's struggling mightily. Just sayin'.

The Operator
09-13-2010, 01:55 AM
The more saves he blows right now the better. That increases our chances of NOT seeing him in October.Unfortunately, it also increases our chances of never seeing October. Something needs to be done and soon.

WMR
09-13-2010, 02:09 AM
Welp, here's the answer...and some were spot-on with their assessment...

Baker on Cordero: "We need him badly because hes our closer. Nobody else is really ready to close."

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/09/postgame_baker_behind_cordero.html

:lol:

Cedric
09-13-2010, 02:53 AM
Had to copy this from the Sun Deck...

"Reds starters gave up 9 hits in 21 innings
Cordero gave up 7 in 2.1 IP"

lollipopcurve
09-13-2010, 07:20 AM
"Nobody else is really ready to close."

How does someone become "ready to close"?

Griffey012
09-13-2010, 07:52 AM
In spite of Masset's recent poor outings, I still trust him more than Cordero at this point. I'm not sure why I'm reluctant to give the job to Chapman until the end of the year. I probably shouldn't be.

In spite of what Dusty said, I don't think he'll go with Cordero much longer. He's said similar things before taking action a couple of times this year, such as when he seemed hesitant to move Phillips to leadoff.

That's a good point. While it seems to me Dusty's comments were bone-head comments, he is not a manager that is going to say anything bad about his player regardless of what he may be really thinking. He may be completely fed up with Cordero and may put Masset or Chapman into close the next time it comes up, we will never really know until that point in time comes.

LoganBuck
09-13-2010, 08:00 AM
The only real option I see in the offseason is trading him for K-Rod. The Mets can not have him on their roster next year, and are desperate to rid themselves of him. They could take Cordero.

Roy Tucker
09-13-2010, 08:23 AM
Yeah, I think Cordero in the bullpen is the analog to Harang as a starter. Arm and body has gotten older and whatever "it" is that allows a pitcher to get MLB hitters out, he seems to have lost it.

At a band competition on Sat. night, I sat next to a Phillies fan and we commiserated about Brad Lidge vs. Coco Cordero.

My vote is Masset as well. The paint is still too shiny on Chapman and I don't want him damaged by high pressure playoff level situations.

cumberlandreds
09-13-2010, 08:23 AM
I would think now is a good time to give someone else a try at closer. The Reds have a nice 6 game lead. Give Massett a couple of chances at the closer role. If he does well, then great. If not,you haven't really lost that much in the standings. Cordero at this point isn't going to do any better. Massett is really the only other RP I would consider right now. I'm not sure I would trust Chapman yet in the closer role. His command of the strike may not be what you want with runners on base and he can't hold runners on base either.

jojo
09-13-2010, 08:31 AM
The paint is still too shiny on Chapman and I don't want him damaged by high pressure playoff level situations.

Think David Price.

WMR
09-13-2010, 08:45 AM
Walt needs to take this decision out of Dusty's hands.

That can be accomplished a number of ways.

sivman17
09-13-2010, 09:10 AM
Had to copy this from the Sun Deck...

"Reds starters gave up 9 hits in 21 innings
Cordero gave up 7 in 2.1 IP"

Here's another one for you:

Reds starters gave up 1 ER this weekend against Pit.
Cordero gave up 5 ER.

Kc61
09-13-2010, 10:30 AM
Here's another one for you:

Reds starters gave up 1 ER this weekend against Pit.
Cordero gave up 5 ER.

Masset, the possible new closer, gave up a bunch of runs against the Bucs too. Let's not leave that out.

The Reds have to address this problem. I was in favor of signing Coco, even at a big contract, but they are in a pennant race and can't rely on a closer who is scuffling.

I like the idea of closer by committee, depending on whether lefties or righties are coming up to bat. Reds can use Coco or Masset against righties and Rhodes or Chapman against lefties. I wouldn't balk at using Bray to get a single lefty hitter out as a loogy.

The Reds only need several wins to make the playoffs and I wouldnt' stand on the title "closer" right now. I would look at the ninth inning hitters and make a decision based on who is coming up.

_Sir_Charles_
09-13-2010, 10:59 AM
In the second half, he's had like 2 bad outings. He's been MUCH better in the second half. IMO, you stay with him. Everybody has a bad night. The walks are what hurt him. He's cut down on those considerably. But once he starts walking guys...get somebody up because it's not going to be his night.

The problem the last 2 games wasn't Cordero only...it was also Dusty leaving him out there too long when he obviously didn't have it.

bucksfan2
09-13-2010, 11:28 AM
Masset would be my guy at this point. Although, closing is a lot different than holding or setting up. A few years ago, everyone wanted a guy named Todd Coffey to close. He had an era in the 1's. When he got his opportunity, he was different guy. I know Coco's struggling mightily. Just sayin'.

Closing is tremendously different than setting up. The finality of the 9th inning makes closing much more pressure packed. Its much easier to pitch in the 8th inning because even if you give up the lead or allow a team to tie your offense still has time to tie or win the game. If you blow the game in the 9th the game is over. There are several guys who have been great set up guys only to fail at closing. Its just the nature of the job. If you don't deal well with pressure you won't deal well with closing.

As Sir Charles said in the second half Cordero has been pretty darn good. Blown saves are going to happen in a season. And a one run lead in the 9th inning is hardly a sure thing. Cordero deserves a lot of blame for yesterday's loss but so does the offense who was only able to score 1 run.

Johnny Footstool
09-13-2010, 11:34 AM
Q: What to do about Cordero?

A: Pull him aside, tell him he's been "tipping his pitches," and take the opportunity to work with him on mechanics.

westofyou
09-13-2010, 11:37 AM
Walt needs to take this decision out of Dusty's hands.

That can be accomplished a number of ways.

This will never happen, because no GM manages the team on the field, no manager will let the GM manage the team, and it undermines the manager and any other future managers that come to the team under that GM. Plus it blurs the lines of who is running the team to the players and undermines all sorts of aspects of the clubhouse and the teams makeup, future dealings with players (and the attempt to maybe move Coco this off season)

In short it's not going to happen during the season.

In the playoffs all bets are off.

RFS62
09-13-2010, 11:54 AM
He's an asset. They'll try to fix him until they believe they can't.

Best case scenario is he gets fixed. That's what they want.

I'm sure they have alternate plans. We're just not going to hear about them.

Ron Madden
09-13-2010, 12:30 PM
For those who put stock in Catchers ERA. From Lance McAlisters blog.

Francisco Cordero stats by Catcher

Hanigan: 1.88 ERA .198 Batting Avg. against in 28.2 innings

Hernandez: 6.59 ERA .303 Batting Avg. against in 27.1 innings.

Should Hanigan be Cordero's personal catcher?

Griffey012
09-13-2010, 12:42 PM
Closing is tremendously different than setting up. The finality of the 9th inning makes closing much more pressure packed. Its much easier to pitch in the 8th inning because even if you give up the lead or allow a team to tie your offense still has time to tie or win the game. If you blow the game in the 9th the game is over. There are several guys who have been great set up guys only to fail at closing. Its just the nature of the job. If you don't deal well with pressure you won't deal well with closing.

As Sir Charles said in the second half Cordero has been pretty darn good. Blown saves are going to happen in a season. And a one run lead in the 9th inning is hardly a sure thing. Cordero deserves a lot of blame for yesterday's loss but so does the offense who was only able to score 1 run.

What are you talking about? Those MIT nerds proved that pressure and emotions have nothing to do with baseball. I can't believe people would actually think there is a difference in pitching in a situation where if you give up the lead you lose, vs. if you give up the lead you still have a chance at winning. (All Sarcasm)

I couldn't have said this post better myself. While I am not a proponent of spending top dollar on a closer, I do condone having a set "closer" who gets the ball to finish out the game. It is easier to prepare all game to finish it out in the 9th with the pressure on, then to all the sudden find out in the 8th you are warming up to close.

dsmith421
09-13-2010, 12:56 PM
In the second half, he's had like 2 bad outings. He's been MUCH better in the second half.

He had a great August but has been a grease fire (.409/.435/.500 against) in September so far.

Here's his game log for the season: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=cordefr01&t=p&year=2010

* On July 30th he took over a 4-4 game and lost it in the 10th.
* On August 7th he had to be pulled after walking the bases loaded and hitting a batter (again with a three run lead) in Chicago.
* On August 14, he allowed the Marlins to load the bases and gave up one run, nearly blowing a 5-3 Reds lead. He was bailed out by a spectacular play by Rolen.
* Then, of course, he blew games against the Pirates twice last week.

That's five bad outings in the 2nd half, and that's being generous in a few games where he came in in low-leverage save situations (2- or 3-run leads) and walked or allowed baserunners to give the opponent a chance to tie.


The problem the last 2 games wasn't Cordero only...it was also Dusty leaving him out there too long when he obviously didn't have it.

So you're advocating sticking with Cordero, but putting him on a shorter leash? I don't see how that solves the problem. Why not just put Masset/Ondrusek/Chapman out there to begin with?

RedsManRick
09-13-2010, 12:57 PM
I thought this was interesting -- and surprising:


w - The prefix "w" infront of any of the pitch types denotes runs above average.
/C - When the pitch type trails with "/C" it denotes per 100 pitches. wFB/C would be fastball runs above average per 100 fastballs.



ERA FIP xFIP FB% SL% CH% wFB/C wSL/C wCH/C
2008 3.33 3.77 3.98 52.0 37.3 9.7 0.34 -0.40 3.62
2009 2.16 3.10 4.06 64.0 26.3 9.7 1.17 1.81 -0.92
2010 4.04 4.18 4.67 66.8 26.3 6.9 0.04 0.97 0.62
Career 3.26 3.48 3.69 60.7 32.6 5.6 0.47 1.51 0.87


A few observations:


Historically, Cordero is a Fastball/Slider pitcher, with an occasional change-up (i.e. one or two per outing). I'm guessing it was his out pitch against lefties. Given how little he threw it, the value stats are likely to fluctuate significantly. The FB & SL are more reliable.
From a pitcher use perspective, Cordero has had phases in his career: Through his Ranger days, he increasingly substituted his slider in for his fastball. This peaked in 2007 as a Brewer, when he threw the SL 46.2% of the time.
In 2008, re-introduced the change-up, having only thrown it more than 3.0% of time during his rookie campaign prior to 2008. He clearly still leaned on his slider, using it at a similar rate as he had in 2005-06. However, for the firm time in his career, he wasn't very effective with it, likely due to a lack of command as seen in his BB/9.
In 2009, he went away from the slider, back to the fastball and had success with both pitches. His ERA however, was mostly the result of his unsustainable stinginess with HR and slightly better (though still poor) control. He saw a noted drop in strikeouts.
In 2010, we're seeing more of the same as 2009, but with command issues again and the expected regression of his HR rate to normal. His slider continues to be effective, but he's throwing his mediocre fastball more than ever.

In short, Fransisco has success as a pitcher because he throws a fastball hard enough that guys have to anticipate it, but he's got a nasty slider that is very hard to hit when you're sitting fastball (and a solid change-up for lefties). If you sit slider, good luck catching up to the fastball. And good luck just reacting to either, because when thrown well, they're very hard to differentiate.

However, the fastball itself is pretty straight and hittable. He misses bats with it mostly because it's not the slider guys were ready for and because some guys just struggle with 96 mph cheese regardless. But as his control wanes, it's a double whammy. Firstly, he has to throw the slider less often because otherwise it's a walk & wild pitch fest. A poorly thrown slider is a hitter's best friend. Secondly, he's more prone to leaving that mediocre fastball where guys can do damage against it. He's weaponless.

I don't know what is going on with him mechanically, but if he can't locate that slider he's in trouble. And to pour gas on the fire, he seems to have lost a lot of the horizontal break on it -- perhaps why he's afraid to throw it in the first place. That makes him an all or nothing type of guy. If I'm Dusty, I probably stick with him as my closer. But I have him on a short leash. If bad Cordero shows up, I'm getting him out of there ASAP. He's not the sort of guy I trust to fight through it.

That's my 3 cents.

redsmetz
09-13-2010, 02:00 PM
I don't know what is going on with him mechanically, but if he can't locate that slider he's in trouble. And to pour gas on the fire, he seems to have lost a lot of the horizontal break on it -- perhaps why he's afraid to throw it in the first place. That makes him an all or nothing type of guy. If I'm Dusty, I probably stick with him as my closer. But I have him on a short leash. If bad Cordero shows up, I'm getting him out of there ASAP. He's not the sort of guy I trust to fight through it.

That's my 3 cents.

Excellent analysis. We've seen Baker do this a couple of times recently (maybe in the last week) where he's pulled Cordero when he's gotten in trouble. Sadly yesterday, one lousy pitch misplaced cost us the game. This is where some committee work may be needed though, with two men on and two outs, I think I'd like to try someone else at that moment.

westofyou
09-13-2010, 02:02 PM
His slider continues to be effective, but he's throwing his mediocre fastball more than ever.


Perhaps it hurts to throw the slider, and thus reliance on a straight FB more than usual

WMR
09-13-2010, 04:12 PM
This will never happen, because no GM manages the team on the field, no manager will let the GM manage the team, and it undermines the manager and any other future managers that come to the team under that GM. Plus it blurs the lines of who is running the team to the players and undermines all sorts of aspects of the clubhouse and the teams makeup, future dealings with players (and the attempt to maybe move Coco this off season)

In short it's not going to happen during the season.

In the playoffs all bets are off.

I was thinking along the lines of putting him on the DL (as far as the 'most respectful' way to force Dusty's hand).

Hasn't Walt used that exact same move already this season? The great thing about that move is that it can never really be publicly claimed that the GM circumvented his manager...