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kfm
08-08-2010, 10:46 PM
I often go over to Cards talk which is the fan forum on stltoday.com. It is amazing to read the post over there. If cards fans are the best in baseball, their message board certainly does not attract their best fans. Basically about 80% of the board believes the reds are just plain lucky. They believe the cubs intentionally lose to the reds so the cards cannot win. They believe that every reds player is just having a career year, that the reds have not had any players get hurt, that they get lucky and miss the other teams best pitchers. They don't think much of the reds bullpen or starting staff. They hate the reds broadcasters especially Tom Breneman, I have actually read them referring to Marty as a homer. There are some very knowledgeable fans who come onto their board and dispute these points of view by supplying actual facts. THese posters are immediately branded as not real cardinal fans. Check it out if you get a chance.

bshall2105
08-08-2010, 10:56 PM
The Reds are extremely lucky. Tehy will be swept in their next series against the Cards, which in turn will send them into a major drought.

rolenmvp
08-08-2010, 10:56 PM
go read the mlb forum on the st louis cardinals. they are giving their cardinals no hope this series, saying they will lose 2 outta 3, not expecting a series win from their cards.

one guy was like if we get swept this season is over.

HalMorrisRules
08-08-2010, 11:00 PM
I often go over to Cards talk which is the fan forum on stltoday.com. It is amazing to read the post over there. If cards fans are the best in baseball, their message board certainly does not attract their best fans. Basically about 80% of the board believes the reds are just plain lucky. They believe the cubs intentionally lose to the reds so the cards cannot win. They believe that every reds player is just having a career year, that the reds have not had any players get hurt, that they get lucky and miss the other teams best pitchers. They don't think much of the reds bullpen or starting staff. They hate the reds broadcasters especially Tom Breneman, I have actually read them referring to Marty as a homer. There are some very knowledgeable fans who come onto their board and dispute these points of view by supplying actual facts. THese posters are immediately branded as not real cardinal fans. Check it out if you get a chance.

Been reading it for a few years and this summation is dead on. Every week is the week that the Reds will finally be exposed and the Cardinals will take their rightful spot at the top of the standings. Their thinking is the Reds haven't won anything in 15 years so they cant possibly win anything this year. Like the Reds will wake up someday and realize that what happened last year of 5 years is too much for them to overcome.

10xWSChamps
08-08-2010, 11:00 PM
You're really, really exaggerating here.

FlyerFanatic
08-08-2010, 11:01 PM
every message board is the same. most of the talk is negative. its natural, people only post when they wanna vent/complain. if everything is going well not as many people speak up/complain thus less activity on the message board.

10xWSChamps
08-08-2010, 11:01 PM
http://interact.stltoday.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=11 is the Cards Talk forum. The OP is exaggerating a lot.

vivaelbirdos.com is probably the best Cardinals fan forum out there

sivman17
08-08-2010, 11:02 PM
I read gatewayredbirds occasionally. They seem to be intelligent fans for the most part. They had a poll and 60% said the Reds worry them.

redram
08-08-2010, 11:05 PM
Being a St. Louis Rams fan , if you want to see some really pathetic fans, just check out Rams Talk. It is so negative I left and found another board. The Cards talk is no different. Cards fans are very arogant because they are used to winning and just cannot beleive our Reds are for real. They are just in denial and we will hopefully show them over the next three days. The Cards are throwing their best three arms at us so if we win 2 of 3 maybe they will start beleiving, but either way, I have been a Reds fan since 1970 and I can tell you, this team is for real. This pitching staff is about the best set of young arms to come along since the Braves with Maddox, Glavin and Smoltz. IMO we have more. Get Bruce and Stubbs going and Kattie bar the door, This team will run away with this division for years to come.

10xWSChamps
08-08-2010, 11:10 PM
Being a St. Louis Rams fan , if you want to see some really pathetic fans, just check out Rams Talk. It is so negative I left and found another board. The Cards talk is no different. Cards fans are very arogant because they are used to winning and just cannot beleive our Reds are for real. They are just in denial and we will hopefully show them over the next three days. The Cards are throwing their best three arms at us so if we win 2 of 3 maybe they will start beleiving, but either way, I have been a Reds fan since 1970 and I can tell you, this team is for real. This pitching staff is about the best set of young arms to come along since the Braves with Maddox, Glavin and Smoltz. IMO we have more. Get Bruce and Stubbs going and Kattie bar the door, This team will run away with this division for years to come.

Do you post on a different Rams forum?

I disagree that Cardinals fans don't think the Reds are for real. I think probably 95% of Cardinals fans realize the Reds will be there til the end.

Better then Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz eh? Those are some big shoes to fill :eek: I don't see three pitchers on the Reds that will be winning multiple Cy Youngs in the years to come...

GIDP
08-08-2010, 11:22 PM
You're really, really exaggerating here.

I read Gateway Redbirds and the majority of fans over there say the Reds are a .500 team at best and that they Cardinals are far and away the superior team. They claim the Cardinals are just under achievers and that the Reds are massive over achievers.

I think its absurd when you look at the Cardinals roster and compare it to the Reds. Cardinals might have the better front line players, but they are pathetic when it comes to starting rotation, and complementary players. No doubt the Cardinals big 4 are a pretty big 4 but that doesnt make up for their terrible 21 that fills out the rest of that roster.

HalMorrisRules
08-08-2010, 11:25 PM
I disagree that Cardinals fans don't think the Reds are for real. I think probably 95% of Cardinals fans realize the Reds will be there til the end.

So I guess I imagined this post which pretty much sums up the majority opinion on that board.


If all goes the way the stats say the games should, the Cards should win in a landslide, but the Reds have bucked the stats all year including winning games they trailed after eight innings, they may have been lucky this year, Law of averages has to take effect sometime. Sorry Reds fans

GIDP
08-08-2010, 11:25 PM
Do you post on a different Rams forum?

I disagree that Cardinals fans don't think the Reds are for real. I think probably 95% of Cardinals fans realize the Reds will be there til the end.

Better then Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz eh? Those are some big shoes to fill :eek: I don't see three pitchers on the Reds that will be winning multiple Cy Youngs in the years to come...

He didnt say better than the Atlanta three.

GIDP
08-08-2010, 11:26 PM
Cardinals have won 2 less games in come from behind fashion last time I saw.

GIDP
08-08-2010, 11:29 PM
Reds are 19-19 in 1 run games
Cardinals are 17-17 in 1 run games

Reds are 7-7 in extra inning games
Cardinals are 5-6 extra inning games

I think its safe to say any type of evening out has happened.

bshall2105
08-08-2010, 11:36 PM
Reds are 19-19 in 1 run games
Cardinals are 17-17 in 1 run games

Reds are 7-7 in extra inning games
Cardinals are 5-6 extra inning games

I think its safe to say any type of evening out has happened.

No, the Reds were lucky that they won those games. The Cards won because they are just a great team that knows how to play in those situations.

DocRed
08-08-2010, 11:59 PM
I often go over to Cards talk which is the fan forum on stltoday.com. It is amazing to read the post over there. If cards fans are the best in baseball, their message board certainly does not attract their best fans. Basically about 80% of the board believes the reds are just plain lucky. They believe the cubs intentionally lose to the reds so the cards cannot win. They believe that every reds player is just having a career year, that the reds have not had any players get hurt, that they get lucky and miss the other teams best pitchers. They don't think much of the reds bullpen or starting staff. They hate the reds broadcasters especially Tom Breneman, I have actually read them referring to Marty as a homer. There are some very knowledgeable fans who come onto their board and dispute these points of view by supplying actual facts. THese posters are immediately branded as not real cardinal fans. Check it out if you get a chance.

That's funny I visit the Cards board at Scout...and they also think the Reds are lucky and the Cubs are tanking it. Cards fans can be a bit stuck up I think.

GIDP
08-09-2010, 12:00 AM
No, the Reds were lucky that they won those games. The Cards won because they are just a great team that knows how to play in those situations.
:laugh:

10xWSChamps
08-09-2010, 12:11 AM
I read Gateway Redbirds and the majority of fans over there say the Reds are a .500 team at best and that they Cardinals are far and away the superior team. They claim the Cardinals are just under achievers and that the Reds are massive over achievers.

I think its absurd when you look at the Cardinals roster and compare it to the Reds. Cardinals might have the better front line players, but they are pathetic when it comes to starting rotation, and complementary players. No doubt the Cardinals big 4 are a pretty big 4 but that doesnt make up for their terrible 21 that fills out the rest of that roster.

Cardinals fans may have been saying that a month ago, but the general consensus in St Louis is that the Reds are for real. Whether Cardinals fans think the team is underachieving is irrelevant.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I'm assuming you say our big four are; Holliday, Pujols, Wainwright, Carpenter. Right?

So in the rotation, Garcia and Westbrook are terrible and pathetic? Garcia obviously isn't, he'll get Cy Young and rookie of the year votes unless he totally implodes. I'll give you Hawksworth and Suppan, but Hawksworth isn't pitching anymore and Suppan probably threw his last pitch as a Cardinal today (beyond maybe mop up work). Lohse isn't good but he isn't terrible either. If Penny comes back, it will be a plus. So in the rotation outside of the big two, I think only Suppan and Hawksworth qualify as terrible and chances are they won't start another game. Westbrook pitched a great game yesterday, I think he'll be very good for us down the stretch.

In the bullpen, I don't think we have one terrible pitcher (unless Suppan goes there). McClellan has been absolutely outstanding, Franklin is an above average closer, Dennys Reyes is a good bullpen arm. Trever Miller is not good, but he's not terrible. Trever is getting too old, his brilliant year last year was a bit of an aberration. Fernando Salas, recent rookie callup, has been very good but his innings have been very limited so far as well. Mitchell Boggs is probably the weakest link but he isn't even having a bad year. Overall the bullpen is a bit of a strength even with Motte injured.

Terrible defensive players in the lineup: Aaron Miles, Felipe Lopez (at third base anyway). Skip Schumaker is below average.

Terrible offensive players: Brendan Ryan, he is just awful at the plate. Yadier Molina and Skip Schumaker haven't been terrible but they are having bad years.

Players that are neither (outside of Holliday and Pujols): Colby Rasmus and Jon Jay in the outfield are having very good years.

Bench: Overall it is below average, Freese being gone for the season kind of screwed it up. Randy Winn is your prototypical bench player, below average defender but can play many spots and has been a decent bat. Aaron Miles is very bad defensively but is actually a surprise with his bat so far. Allen Craig is good defensively, but has been terrible with the bat (although in his defense, he hasn't gotten a ton of at-bats).


Suppan and Hawksworth have killed this team for two+ months now. They were something like 3-20 combined in their starts. Now that they are gone, assuming Lohse doesn't have a set back (we dont need a fifth starter for awhile), it will be a huge boost to the team. 3rd and 2nd have killed our infield defensively.


I think saying that the Cardinal's team outside of the big four is a "pathetic" and "terrible 21" is being a bit of a homer.

RedsFanInBama
08-09-2010, 12:14 AM
We will run away with the division after we sweep the Cardinals the next three days.

Razzle
08-09-2010, 12:40 AM
I read Gateway Redbirds and the majority of fans over there say the Reds are a .500 team at best and that they Cardinals are far and away the superior team. They claim the Cardinals are just under achievers and that the Reds are massive over achievers.

I think its absurd when you look at the Cardinals roster and compare it to the Reds. Cardinals might have the better front line players, but they are pathetic when it comes to starting rotation, and complementary players. No doubt the Cardinals big 4 are a pretty big 4 but that doesnt make up for their terrible 21 that fills out the rest of that roster.

There are probably as many Reds fans that foolishly think the Cardinals are "a pretty big 4" supported by a "terrible 21 that fills out the rest of the roster" as there are Cards fans that don't respect the Reds. There are a lot of players there that are playing well (Rasmus, Jay, Westbrook, Garcia, most of the bullpen for the duration of the year) and those that have better recent track records than they've played this year (Molina, Schumaker, Ryan). In Ryan and Schumaker's case they will never, nor never have been great hitters, but still much better than they've been. Without a doubt there is a lot of crap there (Winn, Miles, Suppan, MacDougal, LaRue) but every team has some pretty bad players filling out their roster. The Cardinals fans think overrate the Cardinals just like the Reds fans overrate the Reds.

Edit: And as for the topic question, Cards Talk is the worst message board of any kind that I've ever been to. Just an awful, awful board due to negligent moderation.

GIDP
08-09-2010, 12:51 AM
Cardinals fans may have been saying that a month ago, but the general consensus in St Louis is that the Reds are for real. Whether Cardinals fans think the team is underachieving is irrelevant.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but I'm assuming you say our big four are; Holliday, Pujols, Wainwright, Carpenter. Right?

So in the rotation, Garcia and Westbrook are terrible and pathetic? Garcia obviously isn't, he'll get Cy Young and rookie of the year votes unless he totally implodes. I'll give you Hawksworth and Suppan, but Hawksworth isn't pitching anymore and Suppan probably threw his last pitch as a Cardinal today (beyond maybe mop up work). Lohse isn't good but he isn't terrible either. If Penny comes back, it will be a plus. So in the rotation outside of the big two, I think only Suppan and Hawksworth qualify as terrible and chances are they won't start another game. Westbrook pitched a great game yesterday, I think he'll be very good for us down the stretch.

In the bullpen, I don't think we have one terrible pitcher (unless Suppan goes there). McClellan has been absolutely outstanding, Franklin is an above average closer, Dennys Reyes is a good bullpen arm. Trever Miller is not good, but he's not terrible. Trever is getting too old, his brilliant year last year was a bit of an aberration. Fernando Salas, recent rookie callup, has been very good but his innings have been very limited so far as well. Mitchell Boggs is probably the weakest link but he isn't even having a bad year. Overall the bullpen is a bit of a strength even with Motte injured.

Terrible defensive players in the lineup: Aaron Miles, Felipe Lopez (at third base anyway). Skip Schumaker is below average.

Terrible offensive players: Brendan Ryan, he is just awful at the plate. Yadier Molina and Skip Schumaker haven't been terrible but they are having bad years.

Players that are neither (outside of Holliday and Pujols): Colby Rasmus and Jon Jay in the outfield are having very good years.

Bench: Overall it is below average, Freese being gone for the season kind of screwed it up. Randy Winn is your prototypical bench player, below average defender but can play many spots and has been a decent bat. Aaron Miles is very bad defensively but is actually a surprise with his bat so far. Allen Craig is good defensively, but has been terrible with the bat (although in his defense, he hasn't gotten a ton of at-bats).


Suppan and Hawksworth have killed this team for two+ months now. They were something like 3-20 combined in their starts. Now that they are gone, assuming Lohse doesn't have a set back (we dont need a fifth starter for awhile), it will be a huge boost to the team. 3rd and 2nd have killed our infield defensively.


I think saying that the Cardinal's team outside of the big four is a "pathetic" and "terrible 21" is being a bit of a homer.

Yea those are the big 4.

Im not taking anything away from the other 21, but yea the majority of those 21 are pretty bad. I think some have roles.

I think Westbrook is decent enough, but is he anything more than a 4 or 5? Doubtful. He could magically put some great starts together but lets not be silly in suggesting hes going to turn into a pitcher he isnt.

Garcia has been good all year but his ERA has been around 4 in his last 10 or so starts. He has been good, but hes trending back to earth. His whip in his last 11 starts have been around 1.50, and hes going to have to be shut down at some point due to innings.

Carpenter and Wainright are good no denying it, but if you are asking which rotation I'm taking if I had to take a 1 for 1 trade it would be hard to go with the Cardinals despite how good those guys can be.

Everyone but Pujols in the infield are pretty darn poor, including Molina. Seriously have you looked at these guys? Lopez is the only one OPSing over .700.

Colby Rasmus has been coming back to earth a little, and while I dont want to sound like I'm selling him short his D has to be a worry for the Cardinals. Good player, but isnt the .900 OPS bat he was in the first half.

Matt Holiday is as good as any LFer in baseball. No complaining there.

Jon Jay on the other hand is due for a big big return to earth. No way the guy can continue to hit what hes hitting with only a 16% LD rate. Who knows where he lands once he gets more playing time. I'm very confident in saying that it wont be anywhere near .800. If that BABIP comes back to earth, which it normally does, and he keeps hitting a 16% LD rate hes looking a lot like a .710 OPS player.

Randy Wynn is fine as a 5th OFer but hes now the Cardinals 4th OF. I dont care what his numbers say this year hes not going to continue to walk at a career rate with more playing time.

Allen Craig could be decent but who really knows enough about him. I know for sure he isnt going to hit .322 in the majors like he did in AAA. Hes probably good enough.

Reds bullpen had a bad start to the year. That is fixed for the most part. They have been a top of the league ERA in June, July and now in August. I dont see that changing any time soon.

There are some major holes on that Cardinals team and it isnt just a bench.

webbbj
08-09-2010, 12:54 AM
i dont really care what the cardinals fans think of the reds chances.

GIDP
08-09-2010, 01:04 AM
I wouldnt take the Terrible 21 so literally. It just sounded good :laugh:. Cardinals have a big 4 that is as good as anyone. The issue is though is the other 21 good enough. I dont think that the Cardinals 25 is better than the Reds 25, and the biggest reason is how flat out awful that infield is.

foxfire123
08-09-2010, 01:10 AM
No, the Reds were lucky that they won those games. The Cards won because they are just a great team that knows how to play in those situations.

And it's arrogance like this that makes me *despise* Cardinal fans. You have a team that has peaked and is starting it's downfall, that now lacks a strong front office/ownership and with a depleted farm system. With so much money tied up in Holliday, Puhols and Carpenter, you're going to be hurting bad soon. especially if the team's cash cow Puhols moves on after this season.

That being said, I doubt if I'll be able to watch any of this series. I hate the Cardinals so much that I get completely unreasonable watching my boys play them. For my own sanity, I'm planning on going to a movie instead tomorrow night, and anything BUT the games on tuesday and wednesday.

scott91575
08-09-2010, 01:32 AM
Terrible defensive players and offensive players in the lineup: Aaron Miles, Felipe Lopez (at third base anyway). Skip Schumaker is below average.

Terrible offensive player that used to be really good at defense: Brendan Ryan, he is just awful at the plate.

Terrible offensive player: Molina

Players that are neither (outside of Holliday and Pujols): Colby Rasmus and Jon Jay in the outfield are having very good years.

Fixed those for you.

We all know what Felipe brings, not much. Aaron Miles, Skip Schumaker, and Yadier Molina are all OPSing below .700. Of those 3, only Schumaker has a career OPS over .700. Brendan Ryan is even worse, and his defense has slipped some. Still better than average, but not as great as last year, and his bat pretty much costs the Cardinals every run he saves in the field.

Sorry, but Felipe Lopez, Aaron Miles, and Skip Schumaker are pretty much worthless on both sides of the ball. We complain about Jonny Gomes, Drew Stubbs, and Jay Bruce. Yet they are all stars compared to those 3.

Don't get me wrong, St. Louis is a really good team. Yet you are really being easy on some downright awful players. Of course now that I have said that they will have the greatest 3 games of their lives against the Reds.

bshall2105
08-09-2010, 01:45 AM
And it's arrogance like this that makes me *despise* Cardinal fans. You have a team that has peaked and is starting it's downfall, that now lacks a strong front office/ownership and with a depleted farm system. With so much money tied up in Holliday, Puhols and Carpenter, you're going to be hurting bad soon. especially if the team's cash cow Puhols moves on after this season.

That being said, I doubt if I'll be able to watch any of this series. I hate the Cardinals so much that I get completely unreasonable watching my boys play them. For my own sanity, I'm planning on going to a movie instead tomorrow night, and anything BUT the games on tuesday and wednesday.

I can't tell if you were serious or not by I am a Reds fan mocking Cards fans.

10xWSChamps
08-09-2010, 01:52 AM
Yea those are the big 4.

Im not taking anything away from the other 21, but yea the majority of those 21 are pretty bad. I think some have roles.

I think Westbrook is decent enough, but is he anything more than a 4 or 5? Doubtful. He could magically put some great starts together but lets not be silly in suggesting hes going to turn into a pitcher he isnt.

Garcia has been good all year but his ERA has been around 4 in his last 10 or so starts. He has been good, but hes trending back to earth. His whip in his last 11 starts have been around 1.50, and hes going to have to be shut down at some point due to innings.

Carpenter and Wainright are good no denying it, but if you are asking which rotation I'm taking if I had to take a 1 for 1 trade it would be hard to go with the Cardinals despite how good those guys can be.

Everyone but Pujols in the infield are pretty darn poor, including Molina. Seriously have you looked at these guys? Lopez is the only one OPSing over .700.

Colby Rasmus has been coming back to earth a little, and while I dont want to sound like I'm selling him short his D has to be a worry for the Cardinals. Good player, but isnt the .900 OPS bat he was in the first half.

Matt Holiday is as good as any LFer in baseball. No complaining there.

Jon Jay on the other hand is due for a big big return to earth. No way the guy can continue to hit what hes hitting with only a 16% LD rate. Who knows where he lands once he gets more playing time. I'm very confident in saying that it wont be anywhere near .800. If that BABIP comes back to earth, which it normally does, and he keeps hitting a 16% LD rate hes looking a lot like a .710 OPS player.

Randy Wynn is fine as a 5th OFer but hes now the Cardinals 4th OF. I dont care what his numbers say this year hes not going to continue to walk at a career rate with more playing time.

Allen Craig could be decent but who really knows enough about him. I know for sure he isnt going to hit .322 in the majors like he did in AAA. Hes probably good enough.

Reds bullpen had a bad start to the year. That is fixed for the most part. They have been a top of the league ERA in June, July and now in August. I dont see that changing any time soon.

There are some major holes on that Cardinals team and it isnt just a bench.



I think Westbrook can be a good #3 on your average NL team. Coming from the AL will help him. I'm sure I'm sounding like a homer-Cardinals fan here, but Duncan has indeed performed some "magic" before. He is the prototypical pitcher Duncan likes, a sinkerball, ground-ball inducing pitcher with a variety of pitches.

Overall I think what outsiders don't realize when they look at the Cardinals is how much damage Suppan and Hawksworth did while they were in the rotation. The W/L record was staggering. Having them out of the rotation is a blessing. Regardless of what you think of Lohse/Westbrook I think we can agree that they are miles ahead of the guys they are replacing. Penny has started bullpen sessions, if he can come back at any point this season our rotation could turn into a real strength again.

As far as trends..... I see Garcia coming back down to earth. Two really bad starts have hurt his metrics in the past month but overall I think the 23 year old coming off Tommy John is going to start wearing out.

Jon Jay, I agree with you that he will come back to earth. Regardless of balls batted in play, his average obviously isn't going to stay in the high 300s. But he is a good hitter still and I don't think he'll be a burden on this team. He takes very good at bats.

Colby Rasmus, I think he is due to get better. I disagree that his defense is hurting the team, i would say he is still a plus defender. He has been struggling. At this point in his young career, I don't think he is as good as his first half would suggest (but he will eventually be that good I think), but I don't think he's as bad as his second half has been.

Molina and Schumaker are better hitters then they've shown this year. I still like Molina at the plate because I really do believe he is one of the more clutch hitters on the team. Will they get better? I think they should if you look at what they've done in their careers so far.

No doubt there are holes on this team but they are still a good team capable of winning this division. Having 4th/5th starters back who aren't completely awful is going to make a world of difference. For over two months it's been an automatic loss when one of those rotation spots came up.





And it's arrogance like this that makes me *despise* Cardinal fans. You have a team that has peaked and is starting it's downfall, that now lacks a strong front office/ownership and with a depleted farm system. With so much money tied up in Holliday, Puhols and Carpenter, you're going to be hurting bad soon. especially if the team's cash cow Puhols moves on after this season.

That being said, I doubt if I'll be able to watch any of this series. I hate the Cardinals so much that I get completely unreasonable watching my boys play them. For my own sanity, I'm planning on going to a movie instead tomorrow night, and anything BUT the games on tuesday and wednesday.

How in the world do the Cardinals lack a strong ownership or front office? We've had as stable an organization as anyone in baseball the last 15 years. If anything the strong front office and ownership is what has kept this team winning for the past decade+. We've had players like Edmonds/Rolen/Eckstein/Glaus/Morris/Suppan/Marquis/Weaver/Encarnacion/Sanders/McGwire/Walker/etc. come and go and yet this team is always strong. The backbone of this organization (front office, ownership, management) along with Pujols have been the only real constant for the past decade.

I'd say the only player on this team who is due for a real decline soon is Carpenter (I'm not counting guys like Randy Winn or Jeff Suppan or Trever Miller).

As for Pujols, no doubt he contract situation could hurt us. They are going to try to re-sign him this off season, but they do carry a club option for 2011 so he will be there next season regardless.

texasdave
08-09-2010, 01:58 AM
i dont really care what the cardinals fans think of the reds chances.

Plus One.

10xWSChamps
08-09-2010, 02:03 AM
Fixed those for you.

We all know what Felipe brings, not much. Aaron Miles, Skip Schumaker, and Yadier Molina are all OPSing below .700. Of those 3, only Schumaker has a career OPS over .700. Brendan Ryan is even worse, and his defense has slipped some. Still better than average, but not as great as last year, and his bat pretty much costs the Cardinals every run he saves in the field.

Sorry, but Felipe Lopez, Aaron Miles, and Skip Schumaker are pretty much worthless on both sides of the ball. We complain about Jonny Gomes, Drew Stubbs, and Jay Bruce. Yet they are all stars compared to those 3.

Don't get me wrong, St. Louis is a really good team. Yet you are really being easy on some downright awful players. Of course now that I have said that they will have the greatest 3 games of their lives against the Reds.

Miles and Lopez are not good at the plate and Schumker is not good defensively, but they aren't terrible. They suck but they are adequate. Maybe this is an argument over semantics. Felipe Lopez unfortunately shouldn't even be playing third base.

Ryan had a bad start to the beginning of the year defensively but he has been very good recently. Although I agree, he's not as good as he was last year. He should have won the gold glove at short in 09

Molina's career OPS is misleading, he came into the league at 21 and was awful with the bat. Yet every single year, except for this one, he had steadily improved. He is better with the bat then he's shown this year

GIDP
08-09-2010, 02:09 AM
I think Rasmus isnt a bad defender I just think his D compared to other CFs is up to par. He has some really bad throws and has looked really silly on some flyballs. Over all I dont think its really hurting them, I just dont think his D is what I would expect out of a CFer.

Westbrook will help but Suppan gave the Cardinals a 4.14 ERA, but since he was only going 5 innings per start basically it will allow the Cardinals to get their worst relievers in less games. I dont know how much Westbrook helps but I dont think its going to be a huge one.

scott91575
08-09-2010, 02:25 AM
Miles and Lopez are not good at the plate and Schumker is not good defensively, but they aren't terrible. They suck but they are adequate. Maybe this is an argument over semantics. Felipe Lopez unfortunately shouldn't even be playing third base.

Ryan had a bad start to the beginning of the year defensively but he has been very good recently. Although I agree, he's not as good as he was last year. He should have won the gold glove at short in 09

Molina's career OPS is misleading, he came into the league at 21 and was awful with the bat. Yet every single year, except for this one, he had steadily improved. He is better with the bat then he's shown this year

They suck but they are adequate? Seems contradictory. The only simple stat I could use for overall performance is WAR (I know many people don't like it, but hey, it's simple). Lopez, Miles, and Schumaker have a combined WAR of 0.2. The 3 of them COMBINED do not even equal 1 decent bench player. Add in Brendan Ryan and you have 4 guys with a combined WAR of 0.5. That is awful no matter how you want to spin it, and no where near adequate. By the end of the season they will be below 1. An average starter should be around 2 for the year. That is 4 guys who will combine for numbers that are less than half an average starter.

Maybe it is semantics and you see them as how they are playing, replacement players, and you think that is adequate.

As for Molina, you can say this year is an anomaly (he has been less lucky this year). That's fine.

GIDP
08-09-2010, 02:27 AM
Ill tell you one thing about Molina. You could have bases loaded and no outs and I would feel very comfortable pitching to Molina and getting out of the inning with a triple play. Talk about a with zero hustle. you could run the ball to first and get him out probably.

Razzle
08-09-2010, 03:01 AM
Ill tell you one thing about Molina. You could have bases loaded and no outs and I would feel very comfortable pitching to Molina and getting out of the inning with a triple play. Talk about a with zero hustle. you could run the ball to first and get him out probably.
This is probably the most frustrating thing about him to me. Pujols gets away with it because he's other worldly. I'm not sure how Molina thinks he can pull the same crap and it's compounded by the fact that he's the slowest player in baseball. I'm sure the fact that he seems to play way too much for a catcher has taken it's toll on his performance as well.

10xWSChamps
08-09-2010, 03:53 AM
They suck but they are adequate? Seems contradictory. The only simple stat I could use for overall performance is WAR (I know many people don't like it, but hey, it's simple). Lopez, Miles, and Schumaker have a combined WAR of 0.2. The 3 of them COMBINED do not even equal 1 decent bench player. Add in Brendan Ryan and you have 4 guys with a combined WAR of 0.5. That is awful no matter how you want to spin it, and no where near adequate. By the end of the season they will be below 1. An average starter should be around 2 for the year. That is 4 guys who will combine for numbers that are less than half an average starter.

Maybe it is semantics and you see them as how they are playing, replacement players, and you think that is adequate.

As for Molina, you can say this year is an anomaly (he has been less lucky this year). That's fine.


They are not good, but they are acceptable. Generally those guys aren't losing games for us. I would be more concerned if their WARP was a negative value.

As for WARP, I don't really like it. I'd just rather look at wOBA for batting (and FYI I have no idea if this would paint them in a better light or not, I haven't looked up any figures). The fact that the formula uses the UZR and also assigns an arbitrary value for different positions lessens it's importance in my mind. I just don't like UZR and when looking at my team (or any other team) inside of a bubble, I don't really value position scarcity at all. When you take payroll numbers and exactly what minor league replacement a team ACTUALLY has then that muddies the waters even more, team's dont have infinite resources. If you were making a rankings of all players in the MLB then fine, but when you're looking at a team it doesn't matter in my mind that Albert Pujols is hitting third and playing 1st instead of hitting third and playing catcher. Contract #s tend to even out position scarcity anyway. Generally the more important a defensive position is, the more money they get for their offensive production in relation to what a player at a less important defensive position would get for that same production. Again, team resources are not infinite (unless you're the Yankees) so in general you are not getting more bang for your buck by signing a great offensive player at a hard defensive position, you'll be paying a premium for him and weakening your budget elsewhere. I think this is a fundamental weakness with the current metrics system, they aren't taking payroll or actual minor league resources into account.

And trying to add up the WARP of different players to try to equal one player is just disingenuous and relatively meaningless. I could find three decent players who are no where near as good as Votto, add up their WARP which wouldn't come close, but if I could add up their production (all their hits and HRs and steals and etc....) and somehow instantly replace Votto's production with it, the Reds would be a better team for it.

WARP or even VORP are valuable when ranking players but lose their meaning once you place then inside of a vacuum.

And the real irony here is that Miles and Lopez are already replacement players. Is there a WARR value out there? Wouldn't it be fair to say that WARP/VORP is not designed for a situation like this, that in the end their true value needs to be handicapped? Their production is fine for what they are. Miles should be getting very little playing time. The original plan was for Skip/Ryan to start and have Lopez platoon for both so that they did not get exposed. Having all three out there every single day really throws a wrench into the plans.

davereds24
08-09-2010, 04:13 AM
10x do you live in StL? If so I may send you a PM in a few weeks, thinking about making the trip for the Sept series there.

Nice to see a Cards fan here.

10xWSChamps
08-09-2010, 04:21 AM
10x do you live in StL? If so I may send you a PM in a few weeks, thinking about making the trip for the Sept series there.

Nice to see a Cards fan here.

Yep I do, feel free to give me a PM. Maybe we could meet up, I go to a lot of Cards games :beerme:

scott91575
08-09-2010, 05:04 AM
They are not good, but they are acceptable. Generally those guys aren't losing games for us. I would be more concerned if their WARP was a negative value.

As for WARP, I don't really like it. I'd just rather look at wOBA for batting (and FYI I have no idea if this would paint them in a better light or not, I haven't looked up any figures). The fact that the formula uses the UZR and also assigns an arbitrary value for different positions lessens it's importance in my mind. I just don't like UZR and when looking at my team (or any other team) inside of a bubble, I don't really value position scarcity at all. When you take payroll numbers and exactly what minor league replacement a team ACTUALLY has then that muddies the waters even more, team's dont have infinite resources. If you were making a rankings of all players in the MLB then fine, but when you're looking at a team it doesn't matter in my mind that Albert Pujols is hitting third and playing 1st instead of hitting third and playing catcher. Contract #s tend to even out position scarcity anyway. Generally the more important a defensive position is, the more money they get for their offensive production in relation to what a player at a less important defensive position would get for that same production. Again, team resources are not infinite (unless you're the Yankees) so in general you are not getting more bang for your buck by signing a great offensive player at a hard defensive position, you'll be paying a premium for him and weakening your budget elsewhere. I think this is a fundamental weakness with the current metrics system, they aren't taking payroll or actual minor league resources into account.

And trying to add up the WARP of different players to try to equal one player is just disingenuous and relatively meaningless. I could find three decent players who are no where near as good as Votto, add up their WARP which wouldn't come close, but if I could add up their production (all their hits and HRs and steals and etc....) and somehow instantly replace Votto's production with it, the Reds would be a better team for it.

WARP or even VORP are valuable when ranking players but lose their meaning once you place then inside of a vacuum.

And the real irony here is that Miles and Lopez are already replacement players. Is there a WARR value out there? Wouldn't it be fair to say that WARP/VORP is not designed for a situation like this, that in the end their true value needs to be handicapped? Their production is fine for what they are. Miles should be getting very little playing time. The original plan was for Skip/Ryan to start and have Lopez platoon for both so that they did not get exposed. Having all three out there every single day really throws a wrench into the plans.

Well, I used WAR for simplicity. Yet a replacement player is a minor league player close to the majors (or a AAAA as some are called), not a replacement for a starter. A reserve player replaces the starter, and that player should not be at 0 WAR.

Let's just say replacement means a guy any team can grab off the street. It the lowest of the low at the major league level and would be lucky to even be on a major league roster. That guy should be the player that replaced your injured starter on the roster, not the guy getting playing time of the injured starter.

As for going into further numbers, it would take a long time. Yet to me Aaron Miles is lucky to even be on a major league team, Felipe Lopez is a low end reserve player, Shumaker is playing like he belongs in AAA, and Ryan is hitting so atrocious (worst OPS of any player above 300 PA) it would take a gold glove effort to be a starter. He is not at the gold glove level this year, and just as his WAR shows he is about the level of a reserve player.

Reds
08-09-2010, 05:40 AM
No, I'm not a Cards fan, why would I subject myself to reading their message board?

I wouldn't invite a Cardinals fan into my home, and I sure as heck wouldn't go into theirs or even peak in the windows. :D

HalMorrisRules
08-09-2010, 10:13 AM
Here;s another of those non-existent Cardinal superiority threads:

Cards underachieved, Reds are lucky (http://interact.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=739915&sid=32b340d2d3b147e6718f096480f7bfe2)


Alot of people on this forum have been saying, "the Reds aren't this good", or "the Cardinals will win this division by X amount of games at the end", or "we're the better team", blah, blah, blah, well the Reds keep winning and are currently ahead by 2 games after 110 games into the season, they're not going away.

Since we know they're for real they have also been very lucky. They haven't had to deal with injuries to key players, they've had an easier schedual, and they've been getting career years from alot of players. The Cardinals have had to deal with injuries to their #4 and #5 starters, their 3B, their BP Reliever and their RF. While also playing a tougher schedual and having alot of players underachive and playing below their career norms.

Let's see, in this quote alone we got the following points:

1. Reds are good but lucky
2. Havent had to deal with injuries (I guess Harang, Volquez, Bailey, Dickerson, Cabrera, Rolen and Hanigan don't count)
3. They've had an easier schedual (the Reds play the games that are on their schedual, sorry if they choose to win them)
4. Getting career years from alot of players (With the exception of Gomes, who is to say that this season isn't just the beginning of a good career? Was Pujols' first season a career year or did it indicate future potential?)

Pretty much matches what the OP said that Cards Talk thinks of the Reds and wasn't an exaggeration.

Magdal
08-09-2010, 10:43 AM
LOL...Hal, it is pretty obvious to me that the person that wrote that post was 15 or 16. Notice his phrase "BP Reliever".:)

CySeymour
08-09-2010, 11:13 AM
I think it's safe to say that this late into the season, anything can happen. My view is that as long as the Reds don't get swept this series, things are ok.

And Dusty, please, please, please DON'T waste outs having position players bunt runners to second base!

arkimadee
08-09-2010, 12:05 PM
they have every right to say we are lucky.. until we prove we can win a division it will always be that way.. they know we are a threat and they wouldn't be talking about us if there weren't worried. bottom line, until we win a division or eliminate them in the playoffs, we will always just be the "lucky" team

foxfire123
08-09-2010, 06:00 PM
I can't tell if you were serious or not by I am a Reds fan mocking Cards fans.

Then I sincerely apologise. I was assuming you were a trolling Cards fan. :)

Statement still stands as to how I feel about the Cardinals tho! lol!

I fully admit to being hypersensitive about the Cards since I'm stuck dead center in Cardinal Country and I hear ad nauseum how wonderful and fabulous they are and how every other team in baseball should fall to their knees and bow to them.. :(

foxfire123
08-09-2010, 06:20 PM
How in the world do the Cardinals lack a strong ownership or front office? We've had as stable an organization as anyone in baseball the last 15 years. If anything the strong front office and ownership is what has kept this team winning for the past decade+. We've had players like Edmonds/Rolen/Eckstein/Glaus/Morris/Suppan/Marquis/Weaver/Encarnacion/Sanders/McGwire/Walker/etc. come and go and yet this team is always strong. The backbone of this organization (front office, ownership, management) along with Pujols have been the only real constant for the past decade.



I've noticed a change since Castellini, the Brown brothers and Jocketty left. Scouting and draft signings aren't nearly as strong, the farm system is lacking, especially after the Holliday trade. right now all they seem to be worrying about is selling tickets and winning *now*, not about building anything for the future. And since Puhols and Carpenter are still producing, they're still selling tickets. But what's in the farm to replace anyone? The Cardinals were never seriously in the running for Oswalt not just because of being in the same division, but that they have little in the farm system. What they do, they rightly so want to keep.

We shall see over the next few years won't we.

Vottomatic
08-09-2010, 06:23 PM
Here;s another of those non-existent Cardinal superiority threads:

Cards underachieved, Reds are lucky (http://interact.stltoday.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=739915&sid=32b340d2d3b147e6718f096480f7bfe2)

Cards underachieved, Reds are lucky




Alot of people on this forum have been saying, "the Reds aren't this good", or "the Cardinals will win this division by X amount of games at the end", or "we're the better team", blah, blah, blah, well the Reds keep winning and are currently ahead by 2 games after 110 games into the season, they're not going away.

Since we know they're for real they have also been very lucky. They haven't had to deal with injuries to key players, they've had an easier schedual, and they've been getting career years from alot of players. The Cardinals have had to deal with injuries to their #4 and #5 starters, their 3B, their BP Reliever and their RF. While also playing a tougher schedual and having alot of players underachive and playing below their career norms.


Let's see, in this quote alone we got the following points:

1. Reds are good but lucky
2. Havent had to deal with injuries (I guess Harang, Volquez, Bailey, Dickerson, Cabrera, Rolen and Hanigan don't count)
3. They've had an easier schedual (the Reds play the games that are on their schedual, sorry if they choose to win them)
4. Getting career years from alot of players (With the exception of Gomes, who is to say that this season isn't just the beginning of a good career? Was Pujols' first season a career year or did it indicate future potential?)

Pretty much matches what the OP said that Cards Talk thinks of the Reds and wasn't an exaggeration.

How do the Cards play a harder schedule? Don't we play the same schedule? And I was told that the first half of the season was the toughest part of the Reds schedule and the second half just happened to be the easier part. Is that the Reds fault? And if we played the hard part of the schedule and are still in first place........doesn't that mean we're pretty good?????

Also, a good lineup protects all the hitters in the lineup. When you have several holes, opposing teams can pitch around certain guys. Difficult to do with this Reds lineup, therefore most of the guys are having good years. Players on crappy teams usually see their stats suffer because they get no protection in the lineup, nobody on base to knock in, getting pitched around, no pitches to hit, etc., etc...........it's par for the course. Do they honestly think Pujols would get as many good pitches to hit if Holliday wasn't batting behind him? It's Baseball 101. Duh.

What a stupid post by that Cards fan.

mlh1981
08-09-2010, 07:12 PM
The Cardinals board?

I think I'd rather read a Pittsburgh Steelers fan forum

BurgervilleBuck
08-09-2010, 07:36 PM
How do the Cards play a harder schedule?
Because they have to play the Reds and we don't. :D

Vottomatic
08-09-2010, 07:41 PM
Because they have to play the Reds and we don't. :D

Good answer.

Good answer. :beerme:

mlh1981
08-09-2010, 07:42 PM
Because they have to play the Reds and we don't. :D

Reds vs. Reds is always fun on mlb 2k10

BandwagonRedFan
08-09-2010, 08:23 PM
Hmmm you bash stltoday's fans yet you make no mention of your own.

This is the biggest series in this franchises existence the past 20 years and its not even a sellout or even close to being full in the seats. You would never see this in Boston or St Louis or even Wrigley.

and you are questioning them?

Everyone is harsh on sports forums about their team

MVPujols
08-09-2010, 09:38 PM
Funny how you all bash us for posting on stltoday bad about our team yet in your game thread you do the exact same things.

MVPujols
08-09-2010, 09:38 PM
Hmmm you bash stltoday's fans yet you make no mention of your own.

This is the biggest series in this franchises existence the past 20 years and its not even a sellout or even close to being full in the seats. You would never see this in Boston or St Louis or even Wrigley.

and you are questioning them?

Everyone is harsh on sports forums about their team

LOL exactly.

paintmered
08-09-2010, 09:44 PM
I'm not sure how I missed this thread, but I'm not going to allow RZ to throw stones at other forums.