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George Anderson
08-09-2010, 04:51 PM
Maybe a pennant race can rejuvenate a guys competitive juices. Much, much different than playing out the string in Milwaukee. A great postseason can do it too.

Jim Edmonds Favre

Blimpie
08-09-2010, 04:51 PM
That they don't need a #5 for a while?Then they should have sat Volquez.

reds44
08-09-2010, 04:51 PM
johnfayman Francisco is packing his stuff. #reds

HUH??

Chip R
08-09-2010, 04:52 PM
Yeah, but his dad was a solid contributor on the Big Red Machi....

Wait a minute--never mind.


http://knowyourmeme.com/i/21468/original/1254569426412.jpg?1254570259

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 04:52 PM
johnfayman Francisco is packing his stuff. #reds

HUH??

He was so mad about Wood being sent down, he just walked out?

Blimpie
08-09-2010, 04:52 PM
johnfayman Francisco is packing his stuff. #reds

HUH??Is Homer on his way up?

HotCorner
08-09-2010, 04:53 PM
chapman maybe?

_Sir_Charles_
08-09-2010, 04:53 PM
m_sheldon Travis Wood optioned to Triple-A Louisville to make room for Edmonds. #reds

WHAT??

Well, that's a bit surprising. But I'd assume it's temporary.

I(heart)Freel
08-09-2010, 04:53 PM
Or Chapman?

medford
08-09-2010, 04:53 PM
Interesting. Reds don't need a '5th' starter for like 13 days.

reds44
08-09-2010, 04:53 PM
Is Homer on his way up?
No way. You wouldn't call him up right now, you'd wait until it was his turn to start to call him up.

If Wood and Francisco are going down, Chapman has to be coming.

johngalt
08-09-2010, 04:54 PM
Wood will get skipped one start and then be back up on the 19th to pitch in Arizona is my guess. Not a big deal.

cincrazy
08-09-2010, 04:54 PM
johnfayman Francisco is packing his stuff. #reds

HUH??

Oh boy. Aroldis Chapman?

Blimpie
08-09-2010, 04:54 PM
You are right. It has to be Chapman.

RedLegSuperStar
08-09-2010, 04:54 PM
Chapman is on his way!

TRF
08-09-2010, 04:55 PM
guess we'll find out in about 10 minutes

medford
08-09-2010, 04:55 PM
there is a press conference @ 4:00 I read somewhere, perhaps here. Wonder if it will be on 700 or 1530?

medford
08-09-2010, 04:55 PM
Chapman is on his way!

For Real? Perhaps they wanted to make sure they sold out tonight.

nate
08-09-2010, 04:55 PM
Here's (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/jim-edmonds-for-chris-dickerson/) Fangraphs take on the trade. Closing graph:


Overall, this wasnt that poor of a trade for either team, although Cincinnati may have slightly overpaid for an outfielder who could see serious regression while giving up a much younger outfielder who could be useful in the future, maybe even now. Theyre clearly going all out in the NL Central race, which they should, but I wonder if this move was necessary for them, or if the asking price for Edmonds was really as high as Dickerson. Milwaukee comes away with a big plus, acquiring a solid outfielder just because they offered a Spring Training invite to an older outfielder who hadnt played pro ball in over a year.

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 04:55 PM
Yeah, Chapman would make the press conference more of a necessity.

LvJ
08-09-2010, 04:56 PM
Awesome move!

medford
08-09-2010, 04:57 PM
Or maybe they've made room for Izzy:D

Chip R
08-09-2010, 04:58 PM
For Real? Perhaps they wanted to make sure they sold out tonight.


He would be relieving, not starting. There's no guarantee he'd even get into the game tonight, tomorrow or this week. Why would you buy a ticket based on a maybe?

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 04:58 PM
He would be relieving, not starting. There's no guarantee he'd even get into the game tonight, tomorrow or this week. Why would you buy a ticket based on a maybe?

He's going to parachute in during the national anthem.

medford
08-09-2010, 04:58 PM
Could also be Valika to serve as a backup IF w/ Brandon's foot and no real backup at SS.

medford
08-09-2010, 05:00 PM
He would be relieving, not starting. There's no guarantee he'd even get into the game tonight, tomorrow or this week. Why would you buy a ticket based on a maybe?

I was joking, I'm thinking there's already enough buzz tonight. But even so, if/when he does get the call, it will generate more walkups, even if he's not starting. There will be more than 1 person that will want to see his debut and will go to all Reds game until he makes said debut.

IslandRed
08-09-2010, 05:00 PM
Could also be Valika to serve as a backup IF w/ Brandon's foot and no real backup at SS.

My thought too, I don't see them having Cairo backing up all three spots given the current health status of the infield.

RedLegSuperStar
08-09-2010, 05:00 PM
Or maybe they've made room for Izzy:D

Jason would have to be put on the 40 man

cincrazy
08-09-2010, 05:00 PM
With the press conference, I can't imagine it being someone other than Chapman. Could be wrong, but I hope I'm not.

Cedric
08-09-2010, 05:01 PM
I am sick now. I can't believe they would be this dumb. Nix is a career .290 OBP/700 OPS bat and the Reds act like he is good.

Now Jim Edmonds has an achilles problem and he is now our starting CF? Now Heisey is going to not play and Wood isn't starting?

Terrible day so far.

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 05:01 PM
Fearless prediction: Chapman starting tonight and will be sent down after he drills Pujols and Holliday in the 1st inning.

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 05:02 PM
I am sick now. I can't believe they would be this dumb. Nix is a career .290 OBP/700 OPS bat and the Reds act like he is good.

Now Jim Edmonds has an achilles problem and he is now our starting CF? Now Heisey is going to not play and Wood isn't starting?

Terrible day so far.

Wow.

_Sir_Charles_
08-09-2010, 05:02 PM
He's going to parachute in during the national anthem.

ROFL. hehe. Just choked on my coke there. hehe.

Cedric
08-09-2010, 05:03 PM
Unless Leake finds a way to the DL after tonight and Wood doesn't miss his next start. Other than that I have no idea how you skip him.

cincrazy
08-09-2010, 05:03 PM
I am sick now. I can't believe they would be this dumb. Nix is a career .290 OBP/700 OPS bat and the Reds act like he is good.

Now Jim Edmonds has an achilles problem and he is now our starting CF? Now Heisey is going to not play and Wood isn't starting?

Terrible day so far.

Wood will be back up shortly, calm down. Edmonds will not see the majority of time in center. Why would they NOT start him tonight against Carpenter? Sending Francisco out instead of Nix isn't a big deal IMO. If it were Heisey or Stubbs I'd go ballistic.

This team has vastly improved itself IMO.

Redsfan320
08-09-2010, 05:04 PM
Anyone know if the PC is being broadcast live anywhere???

320

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 05:04 PM
Unless Leake finds a way to the DL after tonight and Wood doesn't miss his next start. Other than that I have no idea how you skip him.

Logistics. He has options.

TRF
08-09-2010, 05:07 PM
it isn't vastly improved at all. IF depth has been reduced, Edmonds is as much an injury risk as Dickerson. CD was on the 60 day DL, he's likely mostly healed. Sending Wood down creates an issue with the rotation. Harang hasn't been mentioned as being close. Bailey probably is, and reports are his velo is back up to the mid 90's. and still there needs to be a roster move.

So why is walt dancing around? Leake is the obvious choice here.

_Sir_Charles_
08-09-2010, 05:07 PM
I'm not sure if this Wood thing is real yet. Sounds like Sheldon may have someone copying his twitter stuff.

Cedric
08-09-2010, 05:07 PM
Logistics. He has options.

Again, if someone gets "injured" tonight and Wood doesn't miss a start that is fine. Otherwise I see today as a big nightmare.

I don't trust Dusty to take away at bats from Gomes/Edmonds and give them to Heisey. I see the wrong guy seeing a ton of pine time again.

Kc61
08-09-2010, 05:08 PM
Again, if someone gets "injured" tonight and Wood doesn't miss a start that is fine. Otherwise I see today as a big nightmare.

I don't trust Dusty to take away at bats from Gomes/Edmonds and give them to Heisey. I see the wrong guy seeing a ton of pine time again.


Reds have off days Thursday and Monday. So they don't need five starters right now.

OnBaseMachine
08-09-2010, 05:09 PM
From John Fay:

#Reds option Wood to Louisville. Was going start with off days. Francisco was not optioned.

http://twitter.com/johnfayman

cincrazy
08-09-2010, 05:09 PM
Again, if someone gets "injured" tonight and Wood doesn't miss a start that is fine. Otherwise I see today as a big nightmare.

I don't trust Dusty to take away at bats from Gomes/Edmonds and give them to Heisey. I see the wrong guy seeing a ton of pine time again.

I really don't think that Edmonds' health will allow him to play nearly that much. Otherwise, maybe you'd have a legitimate concern. But in this case, I don't think there's any way that's possible. Edmonds would fall apart if we rode him like that, and I think Dusty's aware of that.

TRF
08-09-2010, 05:10 PM
From John Fay:

#Reds option Wood to Louisville. Was going start with off days. Francisco was not optioned.

http://twitter.com/johnfayman

except he isn't the guy that needs to be skipped. Leake is.

PuffyPig
08-09-2010, 05:10 PM
So why is walt dancing around? Leake is the obvious choice here.

He's starting tonight, bit strange to send him to the minors on the night he is starting.

Can Edmonds pitch?

RedLegSuperStar
08-09-2010, 05:10 PM
From John Fay:

#Reds option Wood to Louisville. Was going start with off days. Francisco was not optioned.

http://twitter.com/johnfayman

Well option him and call up Chapman

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 05:11 PM
except he isn't the guy that needs to be skipped. Leake is.

Is Wood available tonight?

harangatang
08-09-2010, 05:11 PM
except he isn't the guy that needs to be skipped. Leake is.Maybe they'll skip Leake next.

TRF
08-09-2010, 05:11 PM
He's starting tonight, bit strange to send him to the minors on the night he is starting.

Can Edmonds pitch?

Can Leake? he hasn't been too good his last few starts. I think he's hit a wall AND the league has a nice book on him now.

cincrazy
08-09-2010, 05:11 PM
Another example of new age media being a joke.

icehole3
08-09-2010, 05:11 PM
after the Rolen deal, I wont question WJ anymore, he's made a believer out of me

reds44
08-09-2010, 05:12 PM
Francisco wasn't optioned. Thanks John!

westofyou
08-09-2010, 05:12 PM
Dickerson had a hand injury, chances are his power is sapped for the season. even he said it when he was in the booth recently

westofyou
08-09-2010, 05:12 PM
Another example of new age media being a joke.

Dewey defeats Truman.

it has more to do with the reporter than the medium

Patrick Bateman
08-09-2010, 05:13 PM
Can Leake? he hasn't been too good his last few starts. I think he's hit a wall AND the league has a nice book on him now.

So who do you start, Edmonds or Wood (on 0 days rest) because Leake hasn't been "too good" in his last few starts.

Wood will be back, missing 1 start isn't necessarily a bad thing to limit innings. Leake will probably go down next time for the same reason.

Scrap Irony
08-09-2010, 05:13 PM
If Bailey comes back, he can take Leake's spot. Leake can then get some rest.

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 05:14 PM
Can Leake? he hasn't been too good his last few starts. I think he's hit a wall AND the league has a nice book on him now.

So then we go Cueto tonight and then Arroyo/Volquez on short rest?

TRF
08-09-2010, 05:15 PM
Is Wood available tonight?

no, but neither is Cueto. Or Arroyo. Or Volquez.

I don't option Wood. I also don't keep 6 OF's either.

If it were me, my move would have been to send either Nix or Stubbs down, add Edmonds, send down Fisher and bring up Chapman. I wouldn't skip anyone in the rotation, i'd give an extra day off, then skip a guy on monday.

I'd follow that up with making Leake inactive and bringing Bailey up. Leake to the DL with fatigue.

Chip R
08-09-2010, 05:15 PM
Francisco wasn't optioned. Thanks John!


John Fayl.

OnBaseMachine
08-09-2010, 05:16 PM
From John Fay - Jocketty on the trade


I think Dusty (Baker) will use him some in center field, some in right field. He can give Joey (Votto) a day off at first if we need that. He also gives us another good pinch-hitter.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/09/jocketty-on-the-trade/?GID=vbCfvGcyaquW+lGplYGgztfVnkc2a48ViuoHb5X3B6Q%3 D

Homer Bailey
08-09-2010, 05:16 PM
Is this PC viewable online?

KronoRed
08-09-2010, 05:17 PM
Ugh, terrible.

reds44
08-09-2010, 05:17 PM
Oh some in CF and some in RF. No mention of LF though.

Sweet!

MattyHo4Life
08-09-2010, 05:21 PM
Oh some in CF and some in RF. No mention of LF though.

Sweet!

I don't think Edmonds has ever played LF.

Brutus
08-09-2010, 05:21 PM
Oh some in CF and some in RF. No mention of LF though.

Sweet!

It gets Heisey in the lineup in left more often. Defensively it might not be the ideal scenario, but I don't see the big deal.

Patrick Bateman
08-09-2010, 05:22 PM
Oh some in CF and some in RF. No mention of LF though.

Sweet!

I just assumed a straight platoon in LF was the idea, as it's a perfect compliment to Edmond's skills for the team. Playing anywhere else probably doesn't make us a better team.

westofyou
08-09-2010, 05:22 PM
I don't think Edmonds has ever played LF.

Over 360 innings when he was young

Chip R
08-09-2010, 05:23 PM
Over 360 innings when he was young


Be like riding a bike.

Cedric
08-09-2010, 05:23 PM
I just assumed a straight platoon in LF was the idea, as it's a perfect compliment to Edmond's skills for the team. Playing anywhere else probably doesn't make us a better team.

Why would anyone assume Gomes was going to ever platoon? Dusty and Walt love the RBI's and the attitude.

They weren't ever going to do the right thing. FLyer85 was right earlier in assessing immediately that Heisey would be the one losing at bats.

That in effect makes the team worse than when we started today.

MattyHo4Life
08-09-2010, 05:23 PM
It gets Heisey in the lineup in left more often. Defensively it might not be the ideal scenario, but I don't see the big deal.


Over 360 innings when he was young

young? do you mean in the minors or in the AL? Nevermind...they are essentially the same thing. I guess I should ask if that was before he was promoted to the NL. :cool:

OnBaseMachine
08-09-2010, 05:23 PM
It gets Heisey in the lineup in left more often. Defensively it might not be the ideal scenario, but I don't see the big deal.

The big deal is Edmonds has leg problems and has lost speed and the Reds have some flyball pitchers. Less range in CF could hurt the pitching staff. I'm a big fan of the Edmonds trade but I think he needs to play mostly left field and maybe some RF. An occasional start in CF is fine but he shouldn't be the everyday CFer.

MattyHo4Life
08-09-2010, 05:25 PM
Another benefit to having Edmonds on your team is that he is really good at noticing when a pitcher is tipping pitches.

Brutus
08-09-2010, 05:26 PM
The big deal is Edmonds has leg problems and has lost speed and the Reds have some flyball pitchers. Less range in CF could hurt the pitching staff. I'm a big fan of the Edmonds trade but I think he needs to play mostly left field and maybe some RF. An occasional start in CF is fine but he shouldn't be the everyday CFer.

He's not going to be the everyday CFer. Jocketty said "occasional." People are freaking out about something that's really not a bad situation.

Further, Edmonds is probably still about an average fielder. He's still decent out there. I wouldn't worry too much about losing a whole lot. Plus, having Heisey in left more often would outweigh anything being lost in the downgrade from Stubbs to Edmonds.

It's a net positive when it's all said and done.

TRF
08-09-2010, 05:27 PM
He's not going to be the everyday CFer. Jocketty said "occasional." People are freaking out about something that's really not a bad situation.

Further, Edmonds is probably still about an average fielder. He's still decent out there. I wouldn't worry too much about losing a whole lot. Plus, having Heisey in left more often would outweigh anything being lost in the downgrade from Stubbs to Edmonds.

It's a net positive when it's all said and done.

That assumes Heisey starts over Gomes. I don't see that happening.

MattyHo4Life
08-09-2010, 05:27 PM
The big deal is Edmonds has leg problems and has lost speed and the Reds have some flyball pitchers. Less range in CF could hurt the pitching staff. I'm a big fan of the Edmonds trade but I think he needs to play mostly left field and maybe some RF. An occasional start in CF is fine but he shouldn't be the everyday CFer.

I agree... I'm surprised that he has played so much CF in Milwaukee this year. For the last couple of years, I've just thought of him as a RF. I'm not sure that I'd want to see Edmonds as my Starting CF, but who knows.

Reds Fanatic
08-09-2010, 05:27 PM
The Wood move makes sense with the off days this Thursday and next Monday. I would expect he will be back for the west coast trip which starts a 2 week stretch without an off day

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 05:28 PM
Why would anyone assume Gomes was going to ever platoon? Dusty and Walt love the RBI's and the attitude.

They weren't ever going to do the right thing. FLyer85 was right earlier in assessing immediately that Heisey would be the one losing at bats.

That in effect makes the team worse than when we started today.

Walt needs to be fired. The guy is old, brittle, and we can't even guarantee that he'll be healthy enough to play when needed. And he is taking ABs away from a young guy who deserves to play. Plus, we gave up Zach Stew....

Oh wait, wrong thread.

11larkin11
08-09-2010, 05:29 PM
He's not going to be the everyday CFer. Jocketty said "occasional." People are freaking out about something that's really not a bad situation.

Further, Edmonds is probably still about an average fielder. He's still decent out there. I wouldn't worry too much about losing a whole lot. Plus, having Heisey in left more often would outweigh anything being lost in the downgrade from Stubbs to Edmonds.

It's a net positive when it's all said and done.

Yeah, thats what calm people were saying when we signed Gary Matthews Jr. Don't you know every player signed automatically becomes a starter if hes older than previous guys on the roster?

Brutus
08-09-2010, 05:29 PM
That assumes Heisey starts over Gomes. I don't see that happening.

Don't see what happening? Heisey starting some in left?

He's not going to be the everyday LF, but instead of getting his starts for Stubbs in center, he'll now be getting some for Gomes in left. You don't see that happening? Not even Dusty Baker plays Gomes everyday.

westofyou
08-09-2010, 05:30 PM
I love minor moves at the end of the bench that get people headed towards the barn for the torches and pitchforks, good stuff.

Brutus
08-09-2010, 05:31 PM
Yeah, thats what calm people were saying when we signed Gary Matthews Jr. Don't you know every player signed automatically becomes a starter if hes older than previous guys on the roster?

LOL yeah I've noticed. I think people assume that if a new bat boy is acuired, Dusty would play him too.

TRF
08-09-2010, 05:31 PM
Walt needs to be fired. The guy is old, brittle, and we can't even guarantee that he'll be healthy enough to play when needed. And he is taking ABs away from a young guy who deserves to play. Plus, we gave up Zach Stew....

Oh wait, wrong thread.

HA! gosh that was clever. and a post like that only took three hours.

99% of the posts in this thread support the trade. Not everyone is happy that Wood got sent down, that the Reds are going with 6 OF's, and that a potential OF of Gomes/Edmond/Bruce looms in the future. BTW that isn't a very good defensive OF. It ain't great offensively either.

but hey, it was a nice dig that has almost no relevance whatsoever to the current topic.

SMcGavin
08-09-2010, 05:31 PM
The Reds just traded a decent 28 year old outfielder for a slightly better 40 year old outfielder, and most reactions are positive. This feels weird.

(by the way, I like it too, it's just a lot different than the "stockpile assets for the future" mode where I've spent virtually my entire Reds fandom)

paulrichjr
08-09-2010, 05:32 PM
Walt needs to be fired. The guy is old, brittle, and we can't even guarantee that he'll be healthy enough to play when needed. And he is taking ABs away from a young guy who deserves to play. Plus, we gave up Zach Stew....

Oh wait, wrong thread.

Funny. IT was like Deja Vu all over again.

TRF
08-09-2010, 05:32 PM
LOL yeah I've noticed. I think people assume that if a new bat boy is acuired, Dusty would play him too.

25 man roster vs 40 man roster... not the same. And remember, Dusty tried to talk GMJ into staying.

Has ANYONE picked him up?

icehole3
08-09-2010, 05:34 PM
The Reds just traded a decent 28 year old outfielder for a slightly better 40 year old outfielder, and most reactions are positive. This feels weird.

(by the way, I like it too, it's just a lot different than the "stockpile assets for the future" mode where I've spent virtually my entire Reds fandom)

didnt CD clear waivers, thats says something about him

OnBaseMachine
08-09-2010, 05:34 PM
As I've said 15 times in this thread, I love the trade for Edmonds. I just don't want to see him in CF very often.

sabometrics
08-09-2010, 05:34 PM
I'm fine with just about every aspect of this move. I guess Dickerson may have been a little more than we had to pay, but he's really found himself worked out of this club's future after all his injuries. We got a player that is more likely to contribute to the playoff push this year and we traded away a player who was the odd man out. Fine by me.

osuceltic
08-09-2010, 05:34 PM
Oh some in CF and some in RF. No mention of LF though.

Sweet!

Gomes vs. Bruce

Gomes +14 pts in BA
Gomes +4 pts in OBP
Gomes +39 pts in SLG
Gomes +43 pts in OBP
Gomes +3 in HR
Gomes +23 in RBI
Gomes -20 in K
Gomes +171 in OPS since the All-Star Break

Bruce since June 30: 32 games, 24 hits, 0 HR, 7 RBI, 36 K

Gomes has those advantages in counting stats despite having 46 fewer at-bats.

Yes, Bruce is a better defender. But Edmonds will be a good defender in RF as well.

I think everyone has been reluctant to notice just how miserably bad Bruce has been for the past six weeks. Jim Edmonds absolutely should be getting those at-bats. Plus, the lineup needs another productive lefty bat other than Votto. Bruce stopped being productive in June.

The guy may have a bright future, but that doesn't do the Reds any good right now. And right now is all that matters.

11larkin11
08-09-2010, 05:34 PM
LOL yeah I've noticed. I think people assume that if a new bat boy is acuired, Dusty would play him too.

Depends. Is he older than the previous bat boy? Or does he retrieve the bats "the right way?" Was he a Cubs bat boy? Does he clog the On Deck Circle?

medford
08-09-2010, 05:35 PM
Here's a thought, regarding sending down wood, keep up Fisher/Fransisco. Perhaps w/ the off days, the reds are setting things up like this was a playoff roster as best they can, in otherwords, they'll deal w/ an injury if it happens, they'll worry about Wood missing his turn vs Florida when they get to the Florida series, but these 3 games are the most important thing on the plate, and its willing to sacrafice a little bit in order to best position themselves to win these 3 games (or at least 2).

The cards lack quality left handers in their pen, unless you consider El Sweat to be a quality lefty (I don't). Keeping all these left handers here against an already shaky bullpen could win the Reds a game or 2. Take 2 of 3, then deal w/ the rest of August as it comes. Its win the series or bust, use every option you have to best position yourself to win these 3 games. I'm OK w/ that mentality. If it means 1 missed Travis Wood start, so be it, but I want this series and Walt is acting like it as well.

flyer85
08-09-2010, 05:35 PM
Why would anyone assume Gomes was going to ever platoon? Dusty and Walt love the RBI's and the attitude.

They weren't ever going to do the right thing. FLyer85 was right earlier in assessing immediately that Heisey would be the one losing at bats.
that was my cynical reaction (which I so noted). I always view the Reds with a healthy dose of cynicism, the last 15 years has done that. Maybe it will work out because lets be honest, most of the moves have came up smelling like a rose (Cairo, Rolen, Stubbs and Gomes for the most part, Hernandez/Hanigan, Leake, Wood, Heisey )

Ron Madden
08-09-2010, 05:35 PM
didnt CD clear waivers, thats says something about him

Says the same thing about Edmonds doesn't it? :rolleyes:

sabometrics
08-09-2010, 05:35 PM
didnt CD clear waivers, thats says something about him

It's the other way around, Edmonds likely went through waivers, then Dickerson was offered.

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 05:37 PM
Says the same thing about Edmonds doesn't it? :rolleyes:

Edmonds may have been claimed by Cincy.

icehole3
08-09-2010, 05:37 PM
It's the other way around, Edmonds likely went through waivers, then Dickerson was offered.


http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100809&content_id=13229004&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

The Reds acquired outfielder Jim Edmonds from the Brewers for outfielder Chris Dickerson after both players cleared waivers.

nate
08-09-2010, 05:38 PM
If Edmonds cleared waivers and the Reds claimed him, I guess Dickerson would only have to clear waivers in reverse order of National League record up to the Brewers. Since the Brewers had the 6th worst record in the NL, 5 other teams passed on Dickerson.

sabometrics
08-09-2010, 05:38 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100809&content_id=13229004&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

The Reds acquired outfielder Jim Edmonds from the Brewers for outfielder Chris Dickerson after both players cleared waivers.

I stand corrected.

westofyou
08-09-2010, 05:40 PM
After July 31, ALL players (on the 40 man) must pass through waivers before being traded.

Ron Madden
08-09-2010, 05:40 PM
As I've said 15 times in this thread, I love the trade for Edmonds. I just don't want to see him in CF very often.

I agree with you. But we are considered negative hand wringing idiots by the "Real Reds Fans" around here. ;)

TRF
08-09-2010, 05:41 PM
So nobody wanted either Edmonds or Dickerson.


Kinda puts it in perspective since neither is owed a lot of money for the rest of the year.

VR
08-09-2010, 05:42 PM
http://espn.go.com/

I was happy to go to ESPN just now and see this lead story....

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?page=dogdays_100809reds

flyer85
08-09-2010, 05:42 PM
Gomes vs. Bruce

Gomes +14 pts in BA
Gomes +4 pts in OBP
Gomes +39 pts in SLG
Gomes +43 pts in OBP
Gomes +3 in HR
Gomes +23 in RBI
Gomes -20 in K

Gomes WAR 0.1
Bruce WAR 1.4

TRF
08-09-2010, 05:43 PM
Don't see what happening? Heisey starting some in left?

He's not going to be the everyday LF, but instead of getting his starts for Stubbs in center, he'll now be getting some for Gomes in left. You don't see that happening? Not even Dusty Baker plays Gomes everyday.

Heisey got occasional starts in LF, sure. I don't see him suddenly getting more because Edmonds is here.

I'm not overly concerned. I think Heisey is a starter for the Reds next year either CF or LF.

kaldaniels
08-09-2010, 05:43 PM
So nobody wanted either Edmonds or Dickerson.


Kinda puts it in perspective since neither is owed a lot of money for the rest of the year.

I gotta ask man, why such a downer?

The Reds improved themselves today.

flyer85
08-09-2010, 05:44 PM
So nobody wanted either Edmonds or Dickerson.
which is kinda the way I looked at it. The downside is Edmonds taking ABs from the wrong player and playing the wrong position (which both, IMO, seem likely to happen).

Patrick Bateman
08-09-2010, 05:44 PM
So nobody wanted either Edmonds or Dickerson.


Kinda puts it in perspective since neither is owed a lot of money for the rest of the year.

Well, in regards to the waiver trading period, I think teams wouldn't put in a claim for a guy unless they had a really good reason to not let trades with other team happen. I think that generally teams don't put in a lot of claims. Nobody had a real reason to grab Dickerson and prevent other teams from making trades. As such, if the Reds exposed him to waivers for the purposes of sending him down, you'd see lots of claims for a young, inexpensive, roster player.

I'm actually a little surprised the Reds didn't put in a claim for Edmonds in order to facilitate a trade, but perhaps it was more from not wanting to be under the time constraints of getting a deal done, as obviously they weren't able to make this happen in time for the first deadline.

VR
08-09-2010, 05:45 PM
So nobody wanted either Edmonds or Dickerson.


Kinda puts it in perspective since neither is owed a lot of money for the rest of the year.

Not as simple as that in my mind.


No one would want Edmonds...unless they were contending right now, so anyone out of the hunt would be immediately removed from interest.

Dickerson on the other hand.....that's a bit more of a slap to have him sneak through.

Unassisted
08-09-2010, 05:45 PM
Recent tweets on Twitter seem more angry about Wood being sent down than happy about acquiring Edmonds. I guess they don't want to believe that Wood wouldn't get much work in with 2 off days in the next 10.

flyer85
08-09-2010, 05:46 PM
I gotta ask man, why such a downer?

The Reds improved themselves today.did they?

They added Edmonds and removed Wood (who has been their best starting pitcher).

kaldaniels
08-09-2010, 05:46 PM
did they?

They added Edmonds and removed Wood (who has been their best starting pitcher).

Ludicrous.

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 05:47 PM
which is kinda the way I looked at it. The downside is Edmonds taking ABs from the wrong player and playing the wrong position (which both, IMO, seem likely to happen).

If that even happens.

At this juncture, is there anyone who we think is a lock in the OF to be the #1 guy from here on out? I could see a few of the current OFers go on a tear. I'd rather have 5-6 of those types, wait for it to happen and then ride it out than have less options and be stuck with a month like Bruce had in July.

TRF
08-09-2010, 05:47 PM
I gotta ask man, why such a downer?

The Reds improved themselves today.

It's not me being a downer. it's like woy said it's hand wringing over the 25th man nearing the end of the year. Both guys cleared waivers. no other team in baseball wanted either guy, even though the added salary for the rest of the year would barely dent anyone's payroll.

And honestly, they likely would have improved themselves if they DFA'd Nix and strict platooned Dickerson and Gomes.

I think it's probably a nothing transaction. I'm neither for or against it.

OnBaseMachine
08-09-2010, 05:48 PM
FWIW, Doug Melvin said one other team put a waiver claim on Edmonds but the Reds had first dibs.

GAC
08-09-2010, 05:48 PM
Be like riding a bike.

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/9/13/633569431234455250-imeanttodothat.jpg

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 05:48 PM
did they?

They added Edmonds and removed Wood (who has been their best starting pitcher).

1) He isn't going very far.

2) Do you think that Wood will continue to kill it the way he has?

flyer85
08-09-2010, 05:48 PM
Ludicrous.inconceivable

TheNext44
08-09-2010, 05:48 PM
http://espn.go.com/

I was happy to go to ESPN just now and see this lead story....

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?page=dogdays_100809reds

I think it's funny that they are writing a story about whether or not a team that is in first place by 2 games on August 9th is able to contend.

Gotta love that coastal bias.

bucksfan2
08-09-2010, 05:50 PM
did they?

They added Edmonds and removed Wood (who has been their best starting pitcher).

Its called being a competent GM. With the off days the didn't have a need to keep Wood on the roster. Leake would seem like the most obvious choice to be skipped for a start or two but he is slated to pitch tonight so that is out of the question. I actually wouldn't be surprised if Leake went on the DL after today's start with "rest" as the reason and Wood is brought right up. Heck if this trip to AAA saves Wood innings and allows him to stay fresh through August and September it may just be a great move.

flyer85
08-09-2010, 05:50 PM
1) Who knows. Maybe Bailey takes the spot ... this is the Reds.
2) Not to the tune of 2.65 but it is hard to make a case that any of the current Reds starters are better.

Reds Fanatic
08-09-2010, 05:50 PM
FWIW, Doug Melvin said one other team put a waiver claim on Edmonds but the Reds had first dibs.

Since it goes by your record the other team could have only been Atlanta, San Diego, Texas, Tampa Bay or the Yankees

kaldaniels
08-09-2010, 05:51 PM
Since it goes by your record the other team could have only been Atlanta, San Diego, Texas, Tampa Bay or the Yankees

Those teams are terrible do we want the Reds to be in their company?

bucksfan2
08-09-2010, 05:52 PM
Since it goes by your record the other team could have only been Atlanta, San Diego, Texas, Tampa Bay or the Yankees

I thought every NL team gets dibs first and then to the AL.

medford
08-09-2010, 05:52 PM
Well it goes by NL team first, then AL teams, so it could have been anyone after the Reds in the NL, or anyone in the AL, w/ the NL team getting first dibs regardless of record.

flyer85
08-09-2010, 05:52 PM
I think it's funny that they are writing a story about whether or not a team that is in first place by 2 games on August 9th is able to contend.

Gotta love that coastal bias.the bane of the Reds and a lot of teams over the years has been trips to the west coast ... and the Reds haven't made theirs yet. The Reds have made their ground beating up on an abysmal (truly) division.

Reds Fanatic
08-09-2010, 05:52 PM
Well it goes by NL team first, then AL teams, so it could have been anyone after the Reds in the NL, or anyone in the AL, w/ the NL team getting first dibs regardless of record.

Ok I thought it just went by the overall record

Tornon
08-09-2010, 05:52 PM
We play the brewers to close out the year.. doesn't this mean CDick will hit a game winning homerun to knock us out of the playoff chase that final weekend?

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 05:52 PM
1) Who knows. Maybe Bailey takes the spot ... this is the Reds.
2) Not to the tune of 2.65 but it is hard to make a case that any of the current Reds starters are better.

And it is difficult to make the case that any are worse, with the exception of Volquez (right now). And he's out of options.

Kc61
08-09-2010, 05:53 PM
Since it goes by your record the other team could have only been Atlanta, San Diego, Texas, Tampa Bay or the Yankees

Doesn't the AL pick after the NL on waiver claims of an NL player? Not sure I'm right, but I thought the NL gets the first crack at an NL player - then the AL.

That would mean any AL team could have put in a claim on Edmonds.

Chip R
08-09-2010, 05:53 PM
We play the brewers to close out the year.. doesn't this mean CDick will hit a game winning homerun to knock us out of the playoff chase that final weekend?

No. He'll be on the DL.

kaldaniels
08-09-2010, 05:54 PM
No. He'll be on the DL.

I'm been trying to come up with a clever remark based on Dickerson injurying himself when he picked up the phone and heard the news...if anyone wants to beat me to it feel free. :D

TheNext44
08-09-2010, 05:55 PM
the bane of the Reds and a lot of teams over the years has been trips to the west coast ... and the Reds haven't made theirs yet. The Reds have made their ground beating up on an abysmal (truly) division.

Even if they play terribly on the West Coast and come back 5 games out, they still have proven that they can contend. They may not make the playoffs, but there should be no doubt as to whether or not the Reds can contend this season.

Brutus
08-09-2010, 05:57 PM
Does anyone acutally believe Travis Wood being optioned is anything more than a very, very temporary move? I've got some ocean front property to sell anyone that believes that.

Today's compliment move was nothing more than a placeholder. It was to either A) allow Nix to clear waivers, B) figure out who will be optioned, C) allow for possibly another trade or D) figure how to get the rotation set with Bailey likely coming back up.

Point is, Wood will not be down longer than the requisite 10 days.

11larkin11
08-09-2010, 05:58 PM
Does anyone acutally believe Travis Wood being optioned is anything more than a very, very temporary move? I've got some ocean front property to sell anyone that believes that.

Today's compliment move was nothing more than a placeholder. It was to either A) allow Nix to clear waivers, B) figure out who will be optioned, C) allow for possibly another trade or D) figure how to get the rotation set with Bailey likely coming back up.

Point is, Wood will not be down longer than the requisite 10 days.

Again Brutus, please stop making sense. You're hurting my brain.

Reds Fanatic
08-09-2010, 06:00 PM
Does anyone acutally believe Travis Wood being optioned is anything more than a very, very temporary move? I've got some ocean front property to sell anyone that believes that.

Today's compliment move was nothing more than a placeholder. It was to either A) allow Nix to clear waivers, B) figure out who will be optioned, C) allow for possibly another trade or D) figure how to get the rotation set with Bailey likely coming back up.

Point is, Wood will not be down longer than the requisite 10 days.

Yeah with the off days the next time they actually need a 5th starter is Saturday August 21st. Now they may still bring Wood up earlier if they want to skip Leake on some starts but they can keep all the starters on regular rest until they get to the 21st.

kaldaniels
08-09-2010, 06:01 PM
Does anyone acutally believe Travis Wood being optioned is anything more than a very, very temporary move? I've got some ocean front property to sell anyone that believes that.

Today's compliment move was nothing more than a placeholder. It was to either A) allow Nix to clear waivers, B) figure out who will be optioned, C) allow for possibly another trade or D) figure how to get the rotation set with Bailey likely coming back up.

Point is, Wood will not be down longer than the requisite 10 days.

Brutus my friend, don't you get it? Saying that the Reds demoted Wood to make way for Jimmy just makes for a killer argument. Flyer convinced me it is so. :cool:

flyer85
08-09-2010, 06:01 PM
And it is difficult to make the case that any are worse, with the exception of Volquez (right now). And he's out of options.no it is rather easy to make a case that Wood has been better

Lets look at three things a pitcher can control

K/9
Volquez - 9
Wood - 7
Cueto - 6.5
Leake - 5.5
Arroyo - 4.5

BB/9
Wood - 2.3
Arroyo 2.9
Cueto 2.9
Leake 3.1
Volquez 7.2

HR/9
Wood - .70
Cueto .73
Arroyo .99
Leake 1.0
Volquez 1.56

Brutus
08-09-2010, 06:02 PM
Again Brutus, please stop making sense. You're hurting my brain.

I'm sorry! We all have our bad days.

:D

flyer85
08-09-2010, 06:03 PM
the real issue is who loses ABs. If it is a combo of Gomes and Stubbs than Edmonds will be a small improvement. If it is Heisey then it is likely a small step backwards.

TRF
08-09-2010, 06:04 PM
Does anyone acutally believe Travis Wood being optioned is anything more than a very, very temporary move? I've got some ocean front property to sell anyone that believes that.

Today's compliment move was nothing more than a placeholder. It was to either A) allow Nix to clear waivers, B) figure out who will be optioned, C) allow for possibly another trade or D) figure how to get the rotation set with Bailey likely coming back up.

Point is, Wood will not be down longer than the requisite 10 days.

6 OF's.

6

As it is Heisey, the BEST of the 6 overall rarely gets to play. Johnny Gomes and his .703 OPS since the ASB gets the bulk of the PT. Heisey finally looked to be nudging Stubbs out of the way for the starting CF job and now he's got to contend with Edmonds.

I'm not sying having Edmonds is a bad thing. I'm not thinking that a four man rotation is necessarily bad either, though I wouldn't have skipped anyone monday, and skipped Leake thursday.

I'm saying 6 OF's is a bad idea.

Roy Tucker
08-09-2010, 06:04 PM
I see some monkey business in the future with Wood and Leake being in the bus to and from Louisville.

kaldaniels
08-09-2010, 06:04 PM
the real issue is who loses ABs. If it is a combo of Gomes and Stubbs than Edmonds will be a small improvement. If it is Heisey then it is likely a small step backwards.

I don't know the magical combination for this outfield in terms of who gets the AB's. I just don't think the answer should be that Heisey needs to get as many as he can, and let the rest of the AB's fall on everyone else.

edabbs44
08-09-2010, 06:07 PM
no it is rather easy to make a case that Wood has been better

Lets look at three things a pitcher can control

K/9
Volquez - 9
Wood - 7
Cueto - 6.5
Leake - 5.5
Arroyo - 4.5

BB/9
Wood - 2.3
Arroyo 2.9
Cueto 2.9
Leake 3.1
Volquez 7.2

HR/9
Wood - .70
Cueto .73
Arroyo .99
Leake 1.0
Volquez 1.56

The key is what happens from here on out.

And I'd bet we'll see Wood again pretty soon.

Puffy
08-09-2010, 06:07 PM
So, the Reds send out Wood (with two off days on Thursday and Monday) because they don't need a fifth starter. They now have 11 pitchers instead of 12 because of this and have an extra bat on the bench (an extra lefty bat by the way) for the most important series of the past 11 years. And people are complaining???

By the way, the people complaining are the exact same people who complain when a Rolen or a Votto did not go on DL and the Reds were playing a position player down because they were a position player down and thats bad. Apparently, accordingly, this is bad now too.

I remember a time when I enjoyed reading this board........

kaldaniels
08-09-2010, 06:07 PM
I see some monkey business in the future with Wood and Leake being in the bus to and from Louisville.

http://www.askdrding.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/funny-monkey-2.jpg

flyer85
08-09-2010, 06:08 PM
I don't know the magical combination for this outfield in terms of who gets the AB's. I just don't think the answer should be that Heisey needs to get as many as he can, and let the rest of the AB's fall on everyone else.the other three guys have proven that they aren't all that good, especially since the ASB. Factor in Gomes abysmal defense and he is actually worse than the Bruce and Stubbs (WARs of 0.1, 1.4 and 1.1). Heisey has hit and played stellar defense. Can Heisey(WAR 1.5 in considerably less PT) keep it up? I don't know what I do know is he is likely the best candidate moving forward.

flyer85
08-09-2010, 06:09 PM
The key is what happens from here on out.

And I'd bet we'll see Wood again pretty soon.The key has been the first 2/3s of the season.

It is now time to forget all the young guy/old guy / been there before crap and let the best players play. However, other considerations seem to get in the way.

MattyHo4Life
08-09-2010, 06:10 PM
Point is, Wood will not be down longer than the requisite 10 days.

Wood isn't your worst starter though is he? If he isn't...then do you really want to lose a start or two from him in August? I'm just glad Dusty didn't tweak the rotation so that Wood pitched tonight instead of Leake.

membengal
08-09-2010, 06:11 PM
In a perfect world, I would have preferred Leake get skipped over the next 10 days, but this isn't a perfect world and Leake is going tonight, so, hope Wood gets some rest in AAA and we will see him back before the west coast.

I am not sure why the upset on the board over this, and I don't mind carrying 6 OFers, TRF, just gives Dusty lots of options for pinch-hitting and what not. And makes LaRussa work extra hard for his usual pitching change shenanigans in the short term...

flyer85
08-09-2010, 06:11 PM
Wood isn't your worst starter though is he? seems like it ... certainly couldn't be the best.

osuceltic
08-09-2010, 06:11 PM
So, the Reds send out Wood (with two off days on Thursday and Monday) because they don't need a fifth starter. They now have 11 pitchers instead of 12 because of this and have an extra bat on the bench (an extra lefty bat by the way) for the most important series of the past 11 years. And people are complaining???

By the way, the people complaining are the exact same people who complain when a Rolen or a Votto did not go on DL and the Reds were playing a position player down because they were a position player down and thats bad. Apparently, accordingly, this is bad now too.

I remember a time when I enjoyed reading this board........

For such a statistically-minded board, we have a lot of posters who twist numbers and arguments that basically can be summed up by "I like that guy better."

Brutus
08-09-2010, 06:11 PM
6 OF's.

6

As it is Heisey, the BEST of the 6 overall rarely gets to play. Johnny Gomes and his .703 OPS since the ASB gets the bulk of the PT. Heisey finally looked to be nudging Stubbs out of the way for the starting CF job and now he's got to contend with Edmonds.

I'm not sying having Edmonds is a bad thing. I'm not thinking that a four man rotation is necessarily bad either, though I wouldn't have skipped anyone monday, and skipped Leake thursday.

I'm saying 6 OF's is a bad idea.

Yeah, six outfielders for a couple of days. Big deal. The way Tony LaRussa manages, I don't mind having the extra hitter on the bench for this series.

And again, I can't emphasize this enough: it's temporary.

Bailey is about to re-join the club. Chapman could be called up any day. Wood will be recalled, at very least in favor of Leake.

I know the Reds' fans haven't seen this in a while, but this is called creativity with your resources. The Reds are shuffling around their cards (no pun intended) according to matchups and options.

TRF
08-09-2010, 06:13 PM
So, the Reds send out Wood (with two off days on Thursday and Monday) because they don't need a fifth starter. They now have 11 pitchers instead of 12 because of this and have an extra bat on the bench (an extra lefty bat by the way) for the most important series of the past 11 years. And people are complaining???

By the way, the people complaining are the exact same people who complain when a Rolen or a Votto did not go on DL and the Reds were playing a position player down because they were a position player down and thats bad. Apparently, accordingly, this is bad now too.

I remember a time when I enjoyed reading this board........

I remember when you loathed Joe Randa.

OnBaseMachine
08-09-2010, 06:14 PM
From John Fay: - Baker on Edmonds' playing time


On Edmonds playing time: I dont know if he has everyday in him. We mix and match everybody here. Who I think that day will be needed: Whether its a defensive outfield or offense. Right, left, matchup. One guy hits one guy, another doesnt. Nothing is 100 percent. You go some on numbers.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/09/baker-on-edmonds-playing-time/

Ron Madden
08-09-2010, 06:16 PM
I honestly believe Jim Edmonds can be of help to this club as a LH bat off the bench but not by playing CF. He's 40 years old with a bum leg.

TRF
08-09-2010, 06:19 PM
Yeah, six outfielders for a couple of days. Big deal. The way Tony LaRussa manages, I don't mind having the extra hitter on the bench for this series.

And again, I can't emphasize this enough: it's temporary.

Bailey is about to re-join the club. Chapman could be called up any day. Wood will be recalled, at very least in favor of Leake.

I know the Reds' fans haven't seen this in a while, but this is called creativity with your resources. The Reds are shuffling around their cards (no pun intended) according to matchups and options.

IF it is temporary. but Walt has to somehow manage to keep the clubhouse intact with the decisions he makes. He's kept Nix for a long time, and probably should have DFA'd him before the ASB. It's tougher to fire a guy when you are winning. With Dickerson, it was easy... He hasn't been there.

So a move has to be made. Fisher for Chapman, that's easy enough. Nix or Francisco for Wood? tougher. the IF is getting mighty thin. Cabrera may be coming back in a few weeks. We know Janish isn't going down, Cairo either.

Then there is Bailey. His rehab assignment has about 2 weeks left at most. And has there been word about Harang?

I'm not poo pooing the trade. I just wonder what happens next.

Kc61
08-09-2010, 06:19 PM
I honestly believe Jim Edmonds can be of help to this club as a LH bat off the bench but not by playing CF. He's 40 years old with a bum leg.

Generally, I agree.

But you have to factor in the Carpenter/Wainright piece of the equation.

Would the Reds be successful against these pitchers with their usual, basically righty, lineup?

So I think the games againt these pitchers are different. I like the four lefty bats against these guys.

RedsMan3203
08-09-2010, 06:21 PM
This thread might break the record going against "The Trade" a few years back..... And this is just a wavier wire move!

MattyHo4Life
08-09-2010, 06:21 PM
I honestly believe Jim Edmonds can be of help to this club as a LH bat off the bench but not by playing CF. He's 40 years old with a bum leg.

I agree... Edmonds is still a threat off the bench. He can probably be a decent spot starter in RF as well. He can still hit though. My guess though is Dusty will probably start the vet in CF everyday. Although he might surprise me. LaRussa surprised me when he starter younger Outfielders the last year Edmonds was in St. Louis.

Puffy
08-09-2010, 06:21 PM
For such a statistically-minded board, we have a lot of posters who twist numbers and arguments that basically can be summed up by "I like that guy better."

Its got nothing to do with "stat-guys" vs. "old school guys" - especially since I lean to the stat side.

And that argument has been made ad nauseum so I think we should leave it out of this thread.

Brutus
08-09-2010, 06:22 PM
IF it is temporary. but Walt has to somehow manage to keep the clubhouse intact with the decisions he makes. He's kept Nix for a long time, and probably should have DFA'd him before the ASB. It's tougher to fire a guy when you are winning. With Dickerson, it was easy... He hasn't been there.

So a move has to be made. Fisher for Chapman, that's easy enough. Nix or Francisco for Wood? tougher. the IF is getting mighty thin. Cabrera may be coming back in a few weeks. We know Janish isn't going down, Cairo either.

Then there is Bailey. His rehab assignment has about 2 weeks left at most. And has there been word about Harang?

I'm not poo pooing the trade. I just wonder what happens next.

I know you're not looking at it from the overall trade perspective. My only point is that there is an awful lot of hand-wrining about the subsequent corresponding moves, and honestly I think everything we're seeing today is simply short-term positioning. Long-term, I don't specifically want six outfielders (though I'd remind everyone Edmonds can serve as a backup 1B), but Wood going down and going with six OF guys right now seems only temporary.

I agree that Walt seems opposed to upsetting the chemistry much, which could mean they ride all six of these guys for a while. But I do doubt that.

remdog
08-09-2010, 06:25 PM
I just heard the news and I haven't bothered to read this whole thread. Personally, I think this is a terrific trade for the Reds. IMO, it means the Reds are trying to win this year AND build for next year.

Edmonds helps them now. If he doesn't come back next year, no big deal.

Removing Dickerson from the mix establishes their committment to their young outfielders and helps them down the road.

Suffleing a couple of pitchers for the next three weeks while they get an off day in the schedule saves their arms and gets the team to the point of when the rosters are expanded.

I can't think of anything in this scenario that i don't like.

Walt is a genius!

Rem

RedsMan3203
08-09-2010, 06:27 PM
I agree... Edmonds is still a threat off the bench. He can probably be a decent spot starter in RF as well. He can still hit though. My guess though is Dusty will probably start the vet in CF everyday. Although he might surprise me. LaRussa surprised me when he starter younger Outfielders the last year Edmonds was in St. Louis.

I'm still trying to figure this whole Vet over a Rookie deal...

When Votto came up, he started and started everyday he could.

When Bruce came up, he started and started everyday he could.

When Stubbs came up, he started and started everyday he could.

Janish vs OCab is a different type of story... Janish was here and OCab came on...

Take it as you will....

Dusty will play the numbers game... I feel fine with the move and I don't think its going to take away many AB's from Bruce/Hisey/Stubbs.

MartyFan
08-09-2010, 06:30 PM
6 OF's.

6

As it is Heisey, the BEST of the 6 overall rarely gets to play. Johnny Gomes and his .703 OPS since the ASB gets the bulk of the PT. Heisey finally looked to be nudging Stubbs out of the way for the starting CF job and now he's got to contend with Edmonds.

I'm not sying having Edmonds is a bad thing. I'm not thinking that a four man rotation is necessarily bad either, though I wouldn't have skipped anyone monday, and skipped Leake thursday.

I'm saying 6 OF's is a bad idea.

If we win the division I don't care if they run Mickey Mouse, Sponge Bob and a cardboard box out there...that said, if the team loses and they don't play Heisey, I will join in the pile-on of this decision!
:thumbup:

TRF
08-09-2010, 06:32 PM
I know you're not looking at it from the overall trade perspective. My only point is that there is an awful lot of hand-wrining about the subsequent corresponding moves, and honestly I think everything we're seeing today is simply short-term positioning. Long-term, I don't specifically want six outfielders (though I'd remind everyone Edmonds can serve as a backup 1B), but Wood going down and going with six OF guys right now seems only temporary.

I agree that Walt seems opposed to upsetting the chemistry much, which could mean they ride all six of these guys for a while. But I do doubt that.

He's got at least a half dozen moves ahead of him, and while I am not hand wringing over them, I'm curious as hell as to how they will play out. BTW, this is my stance on the trade...


It's not me being a downer. it's like woy said it's hand wringing over the 25th man nearing the end of the year. Both guys cleared waivers. no other team in baseball wanted either guy, even though the added salary for the rest of the year would barely dent anyone's payroll.

And honestly, they likely would have improved themselves if they DFA'd Nix and strict platooned Dickerson and Gomes.

I think it's probably a nothing transaction. I'm neither for or against it.

In other words, meh. Could help, might not. He could go on the DL tomorrow.

traderumor
08-09-2010, 06:39 PM
Man Rule- you get a new toy, you play with it the first chance you get.

That is why Edmonds is in the lineup today, and he is a lefty. No more, no less. He is not going to play every day. Even if Dusty tried, Edmonds body would not let him.

File it in the "Dusty abuses young pitchers, plays vets over youngsters, will have Cordero wore out before the AS break, etc."

Tom Servo
08-09-2010, 06:41 PM
Wow, coming home from work all day this is a bit surprising. I figured Edmonds was a likely acquisition but not at the expense of Dickerson.

That said the only way this trade comes back to hurt us is if Dickerson manages to stay healthy, something he hasn't been able to do at all. And I was totally on his bandwagon but he was pitiful earlier this year at the plate.

Ahh screw it, I like the trade lol.

IslandRed
08-09-2010, 06:43 PM
For what it's worth, according to the post on MLBTradeRumors, Edmonds didn't clear waivers. At least one other team put in a claim but the Reds had higher priority.

TRF
08-09-2010, 06:47 PM
For what it's worth, according to the post on MLBTradeRumors, Edmonds didn't clear waivers. At least one other team put in a claim but the Reds had higher priority.

Only Atlanta and San Diego had lower priorities on the waiver wire for an NL player. I'm guessing Atlanta.

IslandRed
08-09-2010, 06:48 PM
Could have been an AL team, too, they didn't say. But Atlanta's a pretty good guess.

lollipopcurve
08-09-2010, 06:51 PM
Adds some nice drama to this pennant race. Edmonds declaring he's going to play till he explodes. Edmonds playing for the Reds against the Cards. Raise the curtain, baby.

Just hope he stays healthy. I like him as playable depth against an injury in the OF, against a nosedive from any of the OFs and as a sub for Votto on the very occasional off-day he should get down the stretch (as opposed to using Cairo or Hernandez there). If he hits, play him (in the OF).

I think the Dickerson vs. Stubbs debate, which began in earnest in spring training, would have resurfaced, either this year or next year, and it's good that's now resolved. Between Stubbs and Heisey, they should be able to get decent play in CF going forward.

Looking forward to seeing Edmonds in there vs. Carpenter and Wainwright!

Marc D
08-09-2010, 06:51 PM
Man Rule- you get a new toy, you play with it the first chance you get.

That is why Edmonds is in the lineup today, and he is a lefty. No more, no less. He is not going to play every day. Even if Dusty tried, Edmonds body would not let him.

File it in the "Dusty abuses young pitchers, plays vets over youngsters, will have Cordero wore out before the AS break, etc."


I want to believe that but then I see Walt with this (http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/09/jocketty-on-the-trade/?GID=vbCfvGcyaquW+lGplYGgztfVnkc2a48ViuoHb5X3B6Q%3 D)


Walt Jocketty on the Jim Edmonds trade:
He gives us another experienced guy. I think he can really help us over the last six, seven weeks of the season in a lot of different ways.
I looked at signing him this winter. I regretted not doing that after he signed with Milwaukee.
I think Dusty (Baker) will use him some in center field, some in right field. He can give Joey (Votto) a day off at first if we need that. He also gives us another good pinch-hitter.
and I am, at the very least, concerned.

OnBaseMachine
08-09-2010, 06:54 PM
From John Fay - Edmonds talks about the trade


On how the fans will warm up to him after being a Reds killer: As long as its not as bad as it was in the Chicago, Ill be all right. The media killed me in Chicago for the first three weeks until I hit my first home run. Ive been in the Central so long. When you play the same team over and over over, youre bound to have good games. I love hitting in this park great fans, great city.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/09/edmonds-talks-about-the-trade/

KronoRed
08-09-2010, 07:00 PM
Can't wait for his first slow up and then dive on a routine catch.

yab1112
08-09-2010, 07:00 PM
What's with Fay adding the word "the" numerous times in his posts in places it clearly doesn't belong? I feel like it's some warped auto-correct feature. OTOH, it could just be that the Fay has a 1st grade understanding of words and sentences.

TRF
08-09-2010, 07:05 PM
Could have been an AL team, too, they didn't say. But Atlanta's a pretty good guess.

Nope had to be an NL team. AL can't put claims in unless ALL of the NL has passed on a player.

Puffy
08-09-2010, 07:10 PM
Per John Fay on Twitter:

Wood was scheduled to pitch next on that 18th. He'll start the 19th instead. They have 3 off days coming up. His IP are a concern. #reds

Soooooooo, all the hard wringing about Wood being sent down is now for naught - but at least people got to complain for no good reason. I mean Wood going down has pushed his next start but a whole blooming day!!!!!!!

buckeyenut
08-09-2010, 07:22 PM
Adds some nice drama to this pennant race. Edmonds declaring he's going to play till he explodes. Edmonds playing for the Reds against the Cards. Raise the curtain, baby.

Just hope he stays healthy. I like him as playable depth against an injury in the OF, against a nosedive from any of the OFs and as a sub for Votto on the very occasional off-day he should get down the stretch (as opposed to using Cairo or Hernandez there). If he hits, play him (in the OF).

...

Looking forward to seeing Edmonds in there vs. Carpenter and Wainwright!
If he is going to play until he explodes, all I really want from him is 3 days. Run that hot streak he is on right now for the next three days against the Cards and help us sweep this thing then go on the DL and take a break till the playoffs for all I care. :) We just need this series, NOW!

OnBaseMachine
08-09-2010, 07:29 PM
From Mark Sheldon's blog:


"Anytime you add Jim Edmonds to the mix, he's been helping teams for what, 15 years? It's obvious he's still able to help us. I'm excited to have him here for what he's done and how he goes about his business. He's an unbelievable outfielder. In his prime, he was one of the best outfielders in the game. I think he will help us tremendously. He's a veteran guy that knows what's going on. He's been in this situation before. He knows how to handle it. You can always use more of that." -- Jay Bruce

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/08/edmonds_trade_they_said_it.html

steig
08-09-2010, 07:29 PM
I don't see how this trade hurts the Reds. I was never a big supporter of Dickerson and as Stubbs hopefully matures Dickerson would have been let go sometime. This deal can only help this season without large consequences in the future. While I have never been a fan of Edmonds, it's about the name on the front of the uniform not the back.

marcshoe
08-09-2010, 07:37 PM
Every move's a crisis. According to Piecoro, Walt said Edmonds would be in the lineup two or three days a week.

This helps the team, I think

Raisor
08-09-2010, 07:39 PM
Per John Fay on Twitter:

Wood was scheduled to pitch next on that 18th. He'll start the 19th instead. They have 3 off days coming up. His IP are a concern. #reds

Soooooooo, all the hard wringing about Wood being sent down is now for naught - but at least people got to complain for no good reason. I mean Wood going down has pushed his next start but a whole blooming day!!!!!!!

Puffy, you're complaining alot recently about all the complaining, and now I'm complaining about you're complaining about the complaining.

mth123
08-09-2010, 07:40 PM
Haven't read the thread yet, but:

Love it, Love it, Love it, Love it, Love it.,,,




...Now, get a starter!

Jpup
08-09-2010, 07:41 PM
For the rest of the year, it's probably a good move, but in the long run I think Dickerson is more valuable.

SirFelixCat
08-09-2010, 07:45 PM
At first, I was thinking, "Ugh, Drama Queen is now a Red...that is gonna kill me rooting for him". But I didn't see he still had good numbers, so I just don't see the downside to this. Dickerson has had chances but has never stayed healthy and we have plenty in the OF, so losing him for the playoff push is a non-issue.

Damn smart move, imo. Still gonna be tough to root for Drama Queen though. ;)

Razor Shines
08-09-2010, 07:49 PM
Now, that he's a Red I can't wait to see him do his patented dive and roll against the Cards.

IslandRed
08-09-2010, 07:51 PM
Nope had to be an NL team. AL can't put claims in unless ALL of the NL has passed on a player.

There aren't two separate claiming periods on a player. There's one claiming period and any team can put in a claim during that time. It's just a matter of the player's current league having top priority.

Tom Servo
08-09-2010, 08:03 PM
http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=10230725


admit you kinda gotta love it

Rojo
08-09-2010, 08:03 PM
For the rest of the year, it's probably a good move, but in the long run I think Dickerson is more valuable.

Edmonds' 40, that limb isn't too long.

RFS62
08-09-2010, 08:04 PM
Wow. I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue.

At first I was horrified that we had acquired a guy we loved to hate for so long.

But now that I've had time to think about it, I think it's a great move.

Has Jim Edmonds been an insufferable hot-dog forever? Yep. But he's our insufferable hot-dog now. Dude has talent, and Walt is a tremendous judge of what kind of personalities will add to the mix.

It's a good move, that could be a great move.

Plus, now we'll get to see his sweet ride more often.

backbencher
08-09-2010, 08:06 PM
There aren't two separate claiming periods on a player. There's one claiming period and any team can put in a claim during that time. It's just a matter of the player's current league having top priority.

A question I've always had: what happens if a team claims, say, 10 guys in the same day -- Edmonds and Dunn and Fielder and a bunch of prospects. Are waivers run so that is not possible?

marcshoe
08-09-2010, 08:14 PM
Wow. I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue.

At first I was horrified that we had acquired a guy we loved to hate for so long.

But now that I've had time to think about it, I think it's a great move.

Has Jim Edmonds been an insufferable hot-dog forever? Yep. But he's our insufferable hot-dog now. Dude has talent, and Walt is a tremendous judge of what kind of personalities will add to the mix.

It's a good move, that could be a great move.

Plus, now we'll get to see his sweet ride more often.

Hey, do I need to go look up the old posts on the boards where I've called Edmonds names in the past and see if i can delete them/ :p:

TRF
08-09-2010, 08:15 PM
There aren't two separate claiming periods on a player. There's one claiming period and any team can put in a claim during that time. It's just a matter of the player's current league having top priority.

that's the same thing. NL has priority, so only SD or ATL were lower than the Reds on the priority list.

Brutus
08-09-2010, 08:21 PM
that's the same thing. NL has priority, so only SD or ATL were lower than the Reds on the priority list.

It's not the same.

Anyone can claim a player. There can be 10 claims. But the highest claim in the order is the one that is awarded. What you said, or at least how you said it, is inaccurate.

TRF
08-09-2010, 08:28 PM
It's not the same.

Anyone can claim a player. There can be 10 claims. But the highest claim in the order is the one that is awarded. What you said, or at least how you said it, is inaccurate.

no, only in the context that we don't know the other team.

Brutus
08-09-2010, 08:34 PM
no, only in the context that we don't know the other team.

But you said it had to be an AL team, which was not technically correct. As was said, it also could have been Atlanta or San Diego.

Brutus
08-09-2010, 08:35 PM
A question I've always had: what happens if a team claims, say, 10 guys in the same day -- Edmonds and Dunn and Fielder and a bunch of prospects. Are waivers run so that is not possible?

There is a limit to the number of claims a team can place in a week. I think the limit is 7, but I can't remember exactly.

oneupper
08-09-2010, 08:37 PM
Don't like Edmonds. Don't like this move.
I'm old and grumpy, so don't try and change my mind.
Hrmph!

TRF
08-09-2010, 08:40 PM
But you said it had to be an AL team, which was not technically correct. As was said, it also could have been Atlanta or San Diego.

I mentioned ATL and SD. It could NOT have been any other NL team.

marcshoe
08-09-2010, 08:40 PM
There is a limit to the number of claims a team can place in a week. I think the limit is 7, but I can't remember exactly.

You seem to be up on this stuff I don't think much about. Thanks.

mth123
08-09-2010, 08:54 PM
I like Dickerson OK and there is a spot in the majors for the guy, but for 2010 we substitute a guy who can get on base as often, while Slugging .500+, is comparable defensively (if a little less rangey at this point) and won't be a total dunderhead on the bases.

After 2010, we clear excess baggage that doesn't have a spot from the 40 man roster and avoid losing another player who might be able to help down the road. Dickerson would be non-tendered after 2011 anyway. He's not worth dealing with arb for and by then Felix Perez will provide a better version of what Dickerson does. I don't really see any downside to this move and I'm one of Dickerson's bigger supporters on this site.

Meanwhile as I see Leake giving up a granny to Skip Schumaker, I repeat, now go get a starter.

mth123
08-09-2010, 10:01 PM
Its called being a competent GM. With the off days the didn't have a need to keep Wood on the roster. Leake would seem like the most obvious choice to be skipped for a start or two but he is slated to pitch tonight so that is out of the question. I actually wouldn't be surprised if Leake went on the DL after today's start with "rest" as the reason and Wood is brought right up. Heck if this trip to AAA saves Wood innings and allows him to stay fresh through August and September it may just be a great move.

Exactly. This team needs Wood for the long haul and he's on pace to be used up before then. Skipping a start is perfect. They may give him a breif start in AAA to keep him sharp, but I hope they hold him to 3 or 4 innings.

REDblooded
08-09-2010, 10:25 PM
Not gonna read all of this at this point...

I'm just happy that Edmonds can no longer hurt the Reds, because dude has a bit of a history...

Also, with Edmonds, Rolen, OCab... Is there a team in the league with better leadership for an overall young club possibly heading into the playoffs?

alloverjr
08-09-2010, 11:13 PM
I don't mind giving up Dickerson, however, I don't expect Edmonds to make much a difference. My worry is that he will take ABs from Heisey who IMO is the best OF on the team.

Kinda my thoughts. Not really sure he brings much to the table and I certainly don't want him starting more than once a week. At his best he probably still worse than Heisey at his worst. But just my opinion. Not really psyched about this one as it seems like a vertical move.

Wasn't Dickerson on the 60 day DL? Who was moved from the 40 to make way for Edmunds? Or had he been on the 15 day this whole time?

D-Man
08-09-2010, 11:13 PM
One other consideration on optioning Wood instead of Leake. . . Wood has already burned an option year in 2010, but Leake has not. This preserves Leake's options for future years--a wise, long-term roster management move.

I think this move make sense *IF* the intent is to swap out Wood for Leake on the 19th, if not sooner for Leake. Leake looks gassed--I'm sure they'll invent an injury for him in short order. Wood is the Reds' best pitcher at the moment, but who know how much he has left before he turns into a pumpkin.

I think the intent of this move--right or wrong--is to preserve Wood for September and postseason. Cincinnati clearly faces an August roster crunch, and the Reds can save a Leake option in the process.

15fan
08-09-2010, 11:13 PM
Edmonds comes to town, Cards pound Reds.

Tonight, I tried a variety of explanations to get my wife to understand how much I dislike Edmonds. The one that stuck was this:

Edmonds to the Reds is like finding out that Christian Laettner is now a starter for your favorite basketball team.

Caveat Emperor
08-09-2010, 11:59 PM
In hindsight, good thing they didn't send Fisher down to make room for Jimmy.

Degenerate39
08-10-2010, 12:16 AM
They sent Travis Wood down?! Please tell me this is a typo

Unassisted
08-10-2010, 12:33 AM
They sent Travis Wood down?! Please tell me this is a typoThere are two off-days in the next 10. The 5th starter wouldn't have gotten any work during that time. The Reds announced he's already scheduled to start in Arizona on the 19th, with 2 starts for Louisville between now and then.

Cedric
08-10-2010, 12:49 AM
There are two off-days in the next 10. The 5th starter wouldn't have gotten any work during that time. The Reds announced he's already scheduled to start in Arizona on the 19th, with 2 starts for Louisville between now and then.

The problem is Wood shouldn't be the one being skipped. He isn't close to being the 5th starter.

sabometrics
08-10-2010, 12:59 AM
The problem is Wood shouldn't be the one being skipped. He isn't close to being the 5th starter.

I'm fine with them trying to minimize Wood's innings. If you watch his workload diligently down the stretch there's a chance he can pitch in the playoffs. Whereas you can send Leake down and keep his innings down, but to what end? He's not going to pitch in the playoffs under any circumstances at this point.

Degenerate39
08-10-2010, 01:23 AM
I'm fine with them trying to minimize Wood's innings. If you watch his workload diligently down the stretch there's a chance he can pitch in the playoffs. Whereas you can send Leake down and keep his innings down, but to what end? He's not going to pitch in the playoffs under any circumstances at this point.

Is it really minimizing Wood's innings if he's pitching in Triple-A though?

Caveat Emperor
08-10-2010, 01:27 AM
Is it really minimizing Wood's innings if he's pitching in Triple-A though?

They can give him a caddy and keep him on regular schedule while only going 4 - 5 IP at a time. Can't do that at the major league level.

As for him being the wrong one to skip -- the Reds had to go with Leake today since he was the scheduled starter. I'd be shocked if Bailey doesn't come up to take Leake's next start with Leake either making a "fatigue" trip to the DL or being sent down to AAA to follow a similar program as Wood.

sabometrics
08-10-2010, 02:14 AM
Is it really minimizing Wood's innings if he's pitching in Triple-A though?

Was Strasburg having his innings minimized in AAA? Yes. I'm sure the Reds will do likewise as Wood has easily been one of our top 3 guys of late, and unless there is a strong surge from Volquez or Bailey, he's a guy you want available come October.

corkedbat
08-10-2010, 02:34 AM
I like the deal. Liked CD a lot, but it has just gotten to the point where you can't count on him to stay on the field. Nix will probably be here next year and there are other LH OFers on the way wh can provide what he does - Felix Perez comes to mind - by the middle of next year if not sooner.

As for pitching? Leake is at about 130 innings after tonight, I send him to Louisvulle to get a few starts and maybe 30-40 more innings (if the Bats make the playoffs), then shut him down.

Bring Bailey back as the 5th starter and Wood as the 4th. I don't want to hurt Leake's confidence, but it does seem the long season is getting to him. Right now I think Cueto, Bronson, Wood, Edinson and Bailey are our five best starters and that is what i would go with. If Leake gets some rest and starts throwing strong whileBailey falters you can always bring ML back before the rosters are set.

Mario-Rijo
08-10-2010, 02:38 AM
Like Edmonds as a platoon mate for Gomes think it makes some sense for the remainder of the season. Wish to never see him in CF again sans injuries. Hate the fact we gave up Dickerson but as Mth points out perhaps it's for the best and maybe Felix Perez will fill that role next year and the next couple after that. Though I expect Dickerson to be a nice fit in Milwaukees CF, Macha will like his game. And we play them quite a few more times going forward, hope that doesn't bite us in the butt.

Though again feel like Walt overpaid, is there any doubt if Walt had dealt Edmonds off we'd get back a Wilkin Castillo type? Walt really loves intangibles doesn't he? Experience, leadership, chemistry has been the hallmark on his last half dozen or so acquisitions and nary a peep out of RZ on it.

fearofpopvol1
08-10-2010, 03:18 AM
I am going to have to agree with the Fangraphs take. I think Edmonds definitely improves the club, and I am glad to have him, but would it have really taken Dickerson to land Edmonds?

I don't mind giving up Dickerson, but I think the Reds overpaid a little here. I think Dickerson could've fetched more or been a good part of a package to land someone else. Wouldn't the Brewers have accepted Valiquette or a player in that mold?

6 OFers seems a bit insane too. Nix has been decent as of late, but I'd have him packing his bags if I were in charge.

mth123
08-10-2010, 03:38 AM
I like having 6 OF and hope they find a way to keep all 6. Gomes/Edmonds, Stubbs/Nix (not a straight platoon), Bruce/Heisey. I don't really care whether its Nix or Edmonds in CF when they are both in there. If they alter from this scenario it should be to give Heisey one start a week in LF and another in place of Stubbs.

Assuming 21 OF starts per 7 game period (I'd split the PT as follows):
Heisey and Bruce 5 days starting
Edmonds, Stubbs and Gomes 3 Days
Nix 2 days

Gomes has been slumping, but he was the only guy who was a legit middle of the order guy up to now (and really only against LHP since May). Having Edmonds to hit behind Rolen while Gomes sits more should improve the team. Having him hit behind Rolen even when Gomes is in there too, is also a pretty good idea.

I do share the concern that the wrong guys will have their PT cut with Edmonds arrival, but whoever he eats into would probably have had the same thing happen if Dickerson was still here. Having Edminds over Dickerson is really a no brainer IMO. Edmonds, even in his age 40 diminished state, is clearly a better player who provides about 100 more points of OPS by adding slugging to a more than adequate OBP and he is light years better on the bases. Dickerson gave back a lot of his decent OBP by getting caught stealing, picked off and making stupid outs on the bases.

Big Klu
08-10-2010, 04:40 AM
I am going to have to agree with the Fangraphs take. I think Edmonds definitely improves the club, and I am glad to have him, but would it have really taken Dickerson to land Edmonds?

I don't mind giving up Dickerson, but I think the Reds overpaid a little here. I think Dickerson could've fetched more or been a good part of a package to land someone else. Wouldn't the Brewers have accepted Valiquette or a player in that mold?

6 OFers seems a bit insane too. Nix has been decent as of late, but I'd have him packing his bags if I were in charge.

I don't think they overpaid at all--I think they got pretty good value for Dickerson. And I would rather keep a left-handed power arm who may or may not pan out than a 28-year-old 4th/5th OF who can't stay healthy and has fallen behind two other younger OF's on the depth chart.

Also, the Brewers may have specifically asked for a CF--Carlos Gomez is on the DL, as is Jody Gerut (and neither were very effective when they were healthy). The only healthy CF on their roster is rookie Lorenzo Cain, so the Brew Crew may have wanted a CF in return. Cain's numbers are good so far, but it's only 12 AB's, and he had only 87 AB's at AAA this season. They might want a LH CF to platoon with him (Milwaukee's lineup is very righty-heavy), or if Cain pans out, they might want a LH-hitting 4th OF who can back up all three RH-hitting starting OF's (Braun, Cain, Hart). Dickerson is a good fit for them. If for some reason the Reds didn't want to trade Dickerson, the Brewers would have been willing to shoehorn Edmonds into that role--they aren't going anywhere this season, anyway.

cumberlandreds
08-10-2010, 08:17 AM
Sending Wood down, IMO, is a stupid,stupid move. He's arguably the best starter at the moment and the Reds need that. Skipping a turn just doesn't make sense to me. This really shakes my confidence in what Jocketty is trying to do. I hope it works out in the long run but right now it looks pretty poor to me. I wonder what the other Reds players think of this? You will never know for sure but I would bet its a little discouraging to them too.

traderumor
08-10-2010, 08:25 AM
Sending Wood down, IMO, is a stupid,stupid move. He's arguably the best starter at the moment and the Reds need that. Skipping a turn just doesn't make sense to me. This really shakes my confidence in what Jocketty is trying to do. I hope it works out in the long run but right now it looks pretty poor to me. I wonder what the other Reds players think of this? You will never know for sure but I would bet its a little discouraging to them too.Watching Mike Leake last night makes me glad they are backing off Wood so that he can have a better chance of being effective in September. He's only a year older than Leake and is slight of build. As an old sage said, "coddle thy pitchers."

cumberlandreds
08-10-2010, 08:29 AM
Watching Mike Leake last night makes me glad they are backing off Wood so that he can have a better chance of being effective in September. He's only a year older than Leake and is slight of build. As an old sage said, "coddle thy pitchers."

I can understand that reasoning. But when someone is pitching as well as Wood has you still send him out there unless he's hurting. If his effectiveness begins to wane then back off but until then I would keep him in his turn. They could have moved him back a day and pitched him against the Cardinals. With how the Cubs are going Fisher could have probably shut them down.

membengal
08-10-2010, 08:37 AM
The difference between Leake and Wood is the 617 or so minor league innings that Wood has built up in the Reds organization. The Reds have done an admirable job developing that arm, and Wood should be good to go for 200-210 innings this year.

Not sure why Wood would get backed off right about now but not Leake. I would have backed off Leake first.

Frankly, I don't think the Walt views it as "backing off" Wood. That's a nice theory that a few of you have, and I wish that was what it was. Since Wood will work in the interim in AAA, I don't see how his innings are being backed off. Just seems to me that they are burning some valuable innings in AAA when they should be spending those innings in the majors.

I think Wood went down because he's viewed as the 5th starter, thus the guy getting skipped. That bothers me a bit.

If anything, skip NONE of them, and give them all some additional rest.

Of the choices available to Walt, skipping Woods' starts AND sending him down to work anyway at AAA makes the least sense.

bucksfan2
08-10-2010, 10:00 AM
I think Wood went down because he's viewed as the 5th starter, thus the guy getting skipped. That bothers me a bit.

If anything, skip NONE of them, and give them all some additional rest.

Of the choices available to Walt, skipping Woods' starts AND sending him down to work anyway at AAA makes the least sense.

For the past month or so the rotation has been Arroyo, Cueto, Volquez, Wood, and Leake. Leake was scheduled to start last night so he really was out of the running for a demotion/DL stint. You aren't going to skip Cueto or Arroyo because while Wood has been good over the past 6 or so starts, Cueto and Arroyo are your top two pitchers. Volquez seems like a guy the Reds are going to allow to pitch on regular basis to get his game back together. When you break it down further it makes "sense" when you consider a move needed to be made yesterday.

As for the Nix disdain, I really don't get it. He has done exactly what the Reds have asked him to do. He is similar to Cairo in that he has a job that is more difficult to do that people expect, and he does it fairly well.

FWIW I can see the Reds playing with their lineup until Sept 1 when rosters expand. I think they want as many options open on a potential postseason roster.

TRF
08-10-2010, 10:34 AM
Now that the excitement has died down, I get the Wood demotion. Now, I wouldn't have done it. I'd have pushed everyone back a day after Monday's off day, then skipped a turn in the rotation the following Thursday. or skipped Monday and push back after Thursday. But I do get it.

That stated, something has to be done about Leake. He's not good right now. He's been very hittable this whole year. Huge Kudos to Fisher for saving the pen like he did.

Right now, Bailey in place of Leake is almost a no brainer.

But as to the original topic, With Edmonds added, and Cabrera likely returning in 10-12 days, one of those OF's has to go. We know Janish and Cairo aren't going anywhere. Sure, it could be JF, but 6 OF's sure seems like a lot. While I see Heisey as the starter in LF or CF next year, I see him losing time to Edmonds this year. That's a shame as he is the team's best OF.

mbgrayson
08-10-2010, 10:59 AM
The other thing to keep in mind is that there is only three more weeks till rosters expand.

I expect to see Bailey for Leake, with Aaron Harang back before the end of next week. Later in August, there will need to be thought given to playoff eligibility in who is on the roster at month's end. With that in mind, I would expect to see Chapman in a David Price-like role by then too. Burton? Maybe.

Walt will indeed have lots of decisions to make, but Mike Leake may not get many more starts, especially if Harang can pitch well.

membengal
08-10-2010, 12:00 PM
For the past month or so the rotation has been Arroyo, Cueto, Volquez, Wood, and Leake. Leake was scheduled to start last night so he really was out of the running for a demotion/DL stint. You aren't going to skip Cueto or Arroyo because while Wood has been good over the past 6 or so starts, Cueto and Arroyo are your top two pitchers. Volquez seems like a guy the Reds are going to allow to pitch on regular basis to get his game back together. When you break it down further it makes "sense" when you consider a move needed to be made yesterday.

As for the Nix disdain, I really don't get it. He has done exactly what the Reds have asked him to do. He is similar to Cairo in that he has a job that is more difficult to do that people expect, and he does it fairly well.

FWIW I can see the Reds playing with their lineup until Sept 1 when rosters expand. I think they want as many options open on a potential postseason roster.

They could EASILY have flpped Leake and Wood, with Leake starting Sunday in Chicago on normal rest and Wood starting with one extra day of rest last night againt St. Louis. And then could have sent Leake down for the rest he needs. The off day on Thursday made that all very possible. It's not like this snuck up on the Reds. They CHOSE to keep Leake over Wood in the short term. I think that was ill-advised and a mistake.

Again, EITHER keep the five in the rotation and give hem all extra rest, or drop Leake. But not Wood.

Honestly, a lot of people act like the Reds' front office's hands were tied with respect to possible moves. That's simply untrue.

bucksfan2
08-10-2010, 12:01 PM
They could EASILY have flpped Leake and Wood, with Leake starting Sunday in Chicago on normal rest and Wood starting with one extra day of rest last night againt St. Louis. And then could have sent Leake down for the rest he needs.

Honestly, a lot of people act like the Reds' front office's hands were tied with respect to possible moves. That's simply untrue.

But that wasn't when the trade went down. The trade went down yesterday so flip flopping wasn't an option.

membengal
08-10-2010, 12:04 PM
You are missing the point. This has NOTHING to do with the trade. It sounds like they all along planned on skipping Wood with these two off days coming up. That being the case, they picked the wrong guy to skip. They picked the wrong guy to pitch the start of a big series. They simply should not be picking Leake over Wood at this point. Gold star to Leake for what he has done this year, but he's not the better option at this point.

And it is silly to pretend this snuck up on Cincy. Either Dickerson was going to come back or, apparently, the deal. Either way, they needed a roster spot on the 25. Clearly they planned this, they simply picked the wrong pitcher to remove from the rotation due to off days.

Hoosier Red
08-10-2010, 12:10 PM
They could EASILY have flpped Leake and Wood, with Leake starting Sunday in Chicago on normal rest and Wood starting with one extra day of rest last night againt St. Louis. And then could have sent Leake down for the rest he needs. The off day on Thursday made that all very possible. It's not like this snuck up on the Reds. They CHOSE to keep Leake over Wood in the short term. I think that was ill-advised and a mistake.

Again, EITHER keep the five in the rotation and give hem all extra rest, or drop Leake. But not Wood.

Honestly, a lot of people act like the Reds' front office's hands were tied with respect to possible moves. That's simply untrue.

Understanding that people feel like the Cardinals series is "more important" the Reds hands may or may not have been tied but I think this move was made intentionally.

I think the Reds priorities were in this order;
1) Have Wood available to pitch without restrictions starting September 1(roughly.) That means its better to limit him now and have him fresh for the final month of the regular season and beyond.
2) Limit Mike Leake's innings to between 150-160 for the season no matter how long the season goes. That means it's better to get them now and shut him down on or around August 31 than it is to limit him right away and have the innings "available" in September.

As the season winds down the Reds will make the choice on their 4 man post season rotation behind Arroyo and Cueto and will want Wood, Volquez, Harang, and Bailey to all be available to choose from. Leake doesn't figure into that equation so he needs to take the innings now.

Cedric
08-10-2010, 12:10 PM
You are missing the point. This has NOTHING to do with the trade. It sounds like they all along planned on skipping Wood with these two off days coming up. That being the case, they picked the wrong guy to skip. They picked the wrong guy to pitch the start of a big series. They simply should not be picking Leake over Wood at this point. Gold star to Leake for what he has done this year, but he's not the better option at this point.

And it is silly to pretend this snuck up on Cincy. Either Dickerson was going to come back or, apparently, the deal. Either way, they needed a roster spot on the 25. Clearly they planned this, they simply picked the wrong pitcher to remove from the rotation due to off days.

They clearly overvalue someone with the stuff of Leake. Without a huge change in his stuff he will never have much of a future here.

membengal
08-10-2010, 12:12 PM
Hoosier, again, as I posted above, I like your theory #1 that has been forwarded by you and others, but won't that theory be full of holes when Wood takes the mound in AAA and tosses a regular start there while on his 10-day sabbatical?

How are his innings being "held down" when he is still pitching in AAA instead of up for Cincy? And, if and when that comes to pass, I am aghast they would spend what innings he has left this year in a meaningless start at AAA as opposed to starting for Cincy next weekend against the fish.

I wish that were it (preserving his arm), but, sorry, I am not buying it. I guess we will know if he takes a start in AAA this week...

membengal
08-10-2010, 12:14 PM
They clearly overvalue someone with the stuff of Leake. Without a huge change in his stuff he will never have much of a future here.

To be clear, I don't mean to bang on Leake. The Reds would not be in the position they are if he had not been what he has been the first half of this season.

But, that said, I don't think they are getting the same Leake at this point due to a variety of factors. This looks like a great time to thank him for a job well done, and shut him down, or send him to long relief, and get him ready for 2011 and beyond while preserving this team's best chance to win going forward.

bucksfan2
08-10-2010, 12:16 PM
You are missing the point. This has NOTHING to do with the trade. It sounds like they all along planned on skipping Wood with these two off days coming up. That being the case, they picked the wrong guy to skip. They picked the wrong guy to pitch the start of a big series. They simply should not be picking Leake over Wood at this point. Gold star to Leake for what he has done this year, but he's not the better option at this point.

And it is silly to pretend this snuck up on Cincy. Either Dickerson was going to come back or, apparently, the deal. Either way, they needed a roster spot on the 25. Clearly they planned this, they simply picked the wrong pitcher to remove from the rotation due to off days.

This could be just one move in the larger scheme of things. You and I have no idea what the Reds ultimately plan to do over the next 7-10 days. It looks like either Harang or Bailey will take over Leake's start in the rotation. It may just have been a matter of one more start. To be frank it sounds like the Reds had the Wood move in the plans for quite a while now. Its silly to pretend that Walt doesn't know what he is doing.

I get that the Cards changed around their rotation for the Reds, but that also put them behind the 8 ball with a series against the Marlins. They lost game 2 and had to face Josh Johnson in game 3 of that series. Meanwhile the Reds who didn't change their rotation got a win from Wood in the final game of the series. I know these three games will get magnified because they are front and center in our minds, but at the end of the season the Wood win on Sunday counts as a win regardless. It doesn't matter if its against the Cubs, the Pirates, or the Cards.

Cedric
08-10-2010, 12:20 PM
This could be just one move in the larger scheme of things. You and I have no idea what the Reds ultimately plan to do over the next 7-10 days. It looks like either Harang or Bailey will take over Leake's start in the rotation. It may just have been a matter of one more start. To be frank it sounds like the Reds had the Wood move in the plans for quite a while now. Its silly to pretend that Walt doesn't know what he is doing.

I get that the Cards changed around their rotation for the Reds, but that also put them behind the 8 ball with a series against the Marlins. They lost game 2 and had to face Josh Johnson in game 3 of that series. Meanwhile the Reds who didn't change their rotation got a win from Wood in the final game of the series. I know these three games will get magnified because they are front and center in our minds, but at the end of the season the Wood win on Sunday counts as a win regardless. It doesn't matter if its against the Cubs, the Pirates, or the Cards.

We got a win Sunday and then don't get Wood for two weeks. Is that worth it? It makes no sense why you would prefer to skip Wood over Leake. Unless you really believe Leake was the better option. I don't think most people do.

membengal
08-10-2010, 12:21 PM
What Cedric said.

And why couldn't Leake have beaten Chicago on Sunday?

And if he can't, then he really REALLY should not be the one taking his regular turn in the rotation while Wood gets skipped.

I am not saying Walt doesn't know what he is doing, I am saying, and I know this upsets some of people in here in very special ways who think Walt and the front office is infallible, that Walt made a mistake in choosing Leake over Wood in terms of keeping someone in the rotation and pitching against St. Louis to start an important series.

Walt was wrong in this instance.

IslandRed
08-10-2010, 12:22 PM
Leake's stuff is plenty good enough when he's locating it. My impression from recent games is that he's just not hitting his spots like he was earlier in the year. Now, it would be preferable if he had the awesome stuff that was unhittable even if it's not thrown to the right place, but there really aren't that many pitchers who fit that description.

It's his first pro season and it looks like the grind is getting to him, inning count or no inning count, so yeah, I have a feeling he's about to be pulled one way or another.

Hoosier Red
08-10-2010, 12:25 PM
Hoosier, again, as I posted above, I like your theory #1 that has been forwarded by you and others, but won't that theory be full of holes when Wood takes the mound in AAA and tosses a regular start there while on his 10-day sabbatical?

How are his innings being "held down" when he is still pitching in AAA instead of up for Cincy? And, if and when that comes to pass, I am aghast they would spend what innings he has left this year in a meaningless start at AAA as opposed to starting for Cincy next weekend against the fish.

I wish that were it (preserving his arm), but, sorry, I am not buying it. I guess we will know if he takes a start in AAA this week...

Well we won't know until he takes it but I'm hoping in Louisville he only throws 3-4 innings(maybe a 50 pitch limit?). They should be less stressful than any he'd pitch here too. In fact I'd option him down to Dayton to make sure there is no stress on results, but rather just staying sharp. Louisville is all of a sudden in a pennant race and it's hard to lose that even if you are a big leaguer.

Obviously Leake only pitched 3 2/3 innings yesterday but I think the prevailing wisdom is "when you're on the big club throw as many as you can until your done." Hopefully he's on strict orders to not strain himself too much in the LOU.

Admittedly, this makes me think twice about mths suggestions on Sunday to get him out earlier. I do wish Dusty would have Smith or Fisher finish off a game with an 8 run lead for the full 3 inning save. But it seems like whenever he does that, the other team still gets back in the game.

bucksfan2
08-10-2010, 12:33 PM
We got a win Sunday and then don't get Wood for two weeks. Is that worth it? It makes no sense why you would prefer to skip Wood over Leake. Unless you really believe Leake was the better option. I don't think most people do.

That isn't my point. My point is it looks like Leake's spot in the rotation is going to be replaced with either Bailey or Harang. And it looks like the decision to send Wood to AAA wasn't a performance issue, rather an organization decision. I have no issue with Wood spending 10+ days in AAA and coming back up as starting the 19th.

The Reds were going to keep Arroyo and Cueto on normal rest. They are your best two starters and they aren't going anywhere. Volquez is a guy who everyone says needs reps in order to regain from. IIRC he is out of options and in order to get work in he has to do it at the MLB level. To me the more I digest the move the more sense it makes.

In this instance Walt was right.

HokieRed
08-10-2010, 12:36 PM
Stretch rotation is likely to be Harang, Arroyo, Bailey, Volquez, and Cueto. Leake's already hit the wall and Wood has, at most, 30 more good innings, IMHO. Time for Bailey and Volquez to step up.

Caveat Emperor
08-10-2010, 12:49 PM
You are missing the point. This has NOTHING to do with the trade. It sounds like they all along planned on skipping Wood with these two off days coming up. That being the case, they picked the wrong guy to skip. They picked the wrong guy to pitch the start of a big series. They simply should not be picking Leake over Wood at this point. Gold star to Leake for what he has done this year, but he's not the better option at this point.

And it is silly to pretend this snuck up on Cincy. Either Dickerson was going to come back or, apparently, the deal. Either way, they needed a roster spot on the 25. Clearly they planned this, they simply picked the wrong pitcher to remove from the rotation due to off days.

They pitched Wood on Sunday and skipped his next start.

They pitched Leake on Monday, and I'll all but guarantee you that the plan is for his next start to be skipped as well with Homer Bailey coming up before Leake's next scheduled start.

This isn't rocket science here.

As for Leake being the better option -- maybe I missed something, but didn't Wood get knocked around for an inning against an inferior offensive team on Sunday? Didn't Wood need to get lifted as well?

Puffy
08-10-2010, 12:57 PM
They pitched Wood on Sunday and skipped his next start.

They pitched Leake on Monday, and I'll all but guarantee you that the plan is for his next start to be skipped as well with Homer Bailey coming up before Leake's next scheduled start.

This isn't rocket science here.

As for Leake being the better option -- maybe I missed something, but didn't Wood get knocked around for an inning against an inferior offensive team on Sunday? Didn't Wood need to get lifted as well?

Hey Caveat - you take your Tulane education and your facts and get them out of here!!!!

This is Redszone - we only deal in speculation and 82.3% of the board is smarter and more qualified than Jocketty and 88.9% are better potential managers than Dusty.

As an aside - I got invited to the Ole Miss Tulane game in New Orleans by a buddy who knows I went to Tulane. Not sure if i can make it - but Go Wave!!

TheNext44
08-10-2010, 01:00 PM
You are missing the point. This has NOTHING to do with the trade. It sounds like they all along planned on skipping Wood with these two off days coming up. That being the case, they picked the wrong guy to skip. They picked the wrong guy to pitch the start of a big series. They simply should not be picking Leake over Wood at this point. Gold star to Leake for what he has done this year, but he's not the better option at this point.

And it is silly to pretend this snuck up on Cincy. Either Dickerson was going to come back or, apparently, the deal. Either way, they needed a roster spot on the 25. Clearly they planned this, they simply picked the wrong pitcher to remove from the rotation due to off days.

Pitching Leake on Sunday and Wood on Monday means that Leake, who clearly is tired, pitches on 3 days rest, while Wood pitches on 5 days rest. I can't blame the Reds for wanting their rookie pitchers to pitch on their regular schedule. That should be the first and foremost factor in deciding who pitches when.

TRF
08-10-2010, 01:05 PM
As for Leake being the better option -- maybe I missed something, but didn't Wood get knocked around for an inning against an inferior offensive team on Sunday? Didn't Wood need to get lifted as well?

Wasn't that inning the 7th? not the 4th. And wasn't the score 8-0 at the time?

Context is a good thing.

That game was in hand, and the damage was minimized.

Caveat Emperor
08-10-2010, 01:06 PM
Hey Caveat - you take your Tulane education and your facts and get them out of here!!!!

This is Redszone - we only deal in speculation and 82.3% of the board is smarter and more qualified than Jocketty and 88.9% are better potential managers than Dusty.

As an aside - I got invited to the Ole Miss Tulane game in New Orleans by a buddy who knows I went to Tulane. Not sure if i can make it - but Go Wave!!

True story. I'm just kinda shocked by the stuff that I'm reading. Leake went from Rookie of the Year and future ace of the rotation at the start of the year to, now, a garbage pitcher who can't retire major league hitters according to some of the people around here.

The Reds have been doing a fantastic job monitoring the situation with their young arms. They're doing exactly what they should be doing -- protecting the future of this ballclub while pushing for a post season appearence.

And yes -- Roll Wave!!

Caveat Emperor
08-10-2010, 01:08 PM
Wasn't that inning the 7th? not the 4th. And wasn't the score 8-0 at the time?

Context is a good thing.

That game was in hand, and the damage was minimized.

Wood: vs. a defeated Cubs team.
Leake: vs. a talented Cardinals team.

Let's not pretend either pitcher had a day to write home about or that either pitcher is such an iron-clad sure thing in their rookie years that it'd be worth juggling the rotation to ensure one guy faces the Cardinals and the other doesn't.

That's really all I'm saying.

westofyou
08-10-2010, 01:09 PM
Young pitchers are like babies, they are volatile, and need their regular rest and schedule to ensure that they perform at their best, some can sway from that schedule and stay up late, most however need that schedule.

reds1869
08-10-2010, 01:10 PM
And yes -- Roll Wave!!

I prefer Go Herd but I'll pull for you all against the SEC. :)

I think the move with Wood makes perfect sense. Teh way I see it is they are trying to keep him on his regular schedule. Due to off days he would either be skipped or pitch on a different day than usual if he stayed up. He'll be right back up after two starts in AA. As for Leake, I think they should move him to the pen if they don't phantom DL him. It keeps him pitching but limits his innings.

TRF
08-10-2010, 01:14 PM
True story. I'm just kinda shocked by the stuff that I'm reading. Leake went from Rookie of the Year and future ace of the rotation at the start of the year to, now, a garbage pitcher who can't retire major league hitters according to some of the people around here.

The Reds have been doing a fantastic job monitoring the situation with their young arms. They're doing exactly what they should be doing -- protecting the future of this ballclub while pushing for a post season appearence.

No he went from a guy that was lucky his first month, great in May, but got banged around in his last two May starts. He was pretty bad in June, average in July and awful his last two starts.

Which is pretty much expected for a guy doing what he did. He needs to be sat down, praised for his contribution and told to get some rest. He might be needed in September. He needs a break in the worst way, to analyze how the league has adjusted to him, to figure out how to adjust back, and to get the sharpness back in his game.

He's a 1st round talent that played way over his head for his 1st professional season. Nobody can argue that. He'll be needed this year and certainly next. Why risk damaging him? Why risk Reith'ing him? He lost his poise last night, and he needs to get that back. But I don't believe for a second that physically he's as sharp as he was in May.

cuz baseball is hard. especially on rookies. double especially on rookies with no minor league experience.

Hoosier Red
08-10-2010, 01:21 PM
Wasn't that inning the 7th? not the 4th. And wasn't the score 8-0 at the time?

Context is a good thing.

That game was in hand, and the damage was minimized.

As CE pointed out that has a lot to do with who each was pitching against but really it's not a whole lot more than picking an inning where the pitcher got blown up. Whether he should or shouldn't have been charged with earned runs against the Pirates is debateable, but I think it shows that his performance was much like Wood's performance. 5-6 innings of very good pitching, 1 inning of bad pitching.

Because the Reds tried to minimize the damage against the Cardinals and took him out in the 4th inning just makes the performance look that much worse.