PDA

View Full Version : Don Wakamatsu canned



westofyou
08-09-2010, 06:18 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-mariners-wakamatsufired

TheNext44
08-09-2010, 06:22 PM
Can't blame the M's. He was given a team that should have competed and it's in last place well below .500.

Still think he could be a good manger in the future. If anything, another manager on the market gives the Reds more negotiating power when they talk to Baker at the end of the season.

westofyou
08-09-2010, 06:29 PM
Can't blame the M's. He was given a team that should have competed and it's in last place well below .500.

Still think he could be a good manger in the future. If anything, another manager on the market gives the Reds more negotiating power when they talk to Baker at the end of the season.

What power do the Reds get from a guy who got canned before he finished his 2nd season being on the market?

Narron is still out there too, does that give the Reds power?

Most GM's give their team some offense, maybe the M's should have thought of that when they were checking out guys gloves.

TRF
08-09-2010, 06:34 PM
What power do the Reds get from a guy who got canned before he finished his 2nd season being on the market?

Narron is still out there too, does that give the Reds power?

Most GM's give their team some offense, maybe the M's should have thought of that when they were checking out guys gloves.

"Dusty, there are several failed managers out there just drooling at the thought of working in Cincinnati..."

hehe

lollipopcurve
08-09-2010, 06:55 PM
A day after Brandon Morrow, traded by the Seattle GM for an erratic setup guy with no real track record of success, throws a one-hitter with 17 Ks.

CYA

jojo
08-09-2010, 07:07 PM
WAK was a dead man walking as he lost the clubhouse about the time Jr was falling asleep but his final nail was a couple of weeks ago...

This had zilch to do with events of the weekend...

lollipopcurve
08-09-2010, 07:11 PM
WAK was a dead man walking as he lost the clubhouse about the time Jr was falling asleep but his final nail was a couple of weeks ago...

This had zilch to do with events of the weekend...

Yet, today's events do help steer attention away from Brandon Morrow. You cannot deny that.

jojo
08-09-2010, 07:14 PM
Who cares?

lollipopcurve
08-09-2010, 07:34 PM
Who cares?

Anybody who does not not subscribe to the "Zduriencik is ever wise" narrative, I suppose.

TheNext44
08-09-2010, 07:35 PM
Morrow for League was a decent trade for both clubs. It had nothing to do with the M's success this year. The fact that one of them had good game a few days ago is pretty irrelevant.

jojo
08-09-2010, 07:46 PM
Anybody who does not not subscribe to the "Zduriencik is ever wise" narrative, I suppose.

Seriously, the only two choices are either 1) this is a conspiracy to distract the Seattle fanbase or 2) you're hopelessly, blindly biased if you don't see the conspiracy?

Please stop with the veiled attacks BTW, that kind of thing isn't acceptable on the Sundeck so it certainly doesn't rise to the higher standard of the ORG.

lollipopcurve
08-09-2010, 07:49 PM
Morrow for League was a decent trade for both clubs. It had nothing to do with the M's success this year. The fact that one of them had good game a few days ago is pretty irrelevant.

"Good game" is an understatement. He pitched one of the best games of the last decade.

Trading Morrow, a recent 1st rounder taken in the top 5 picks, was gutsy and indicated that the new regime considered him a bust. But he's got a great arm, top of rotation type stuff if you can harness it. Seattle didn't think he could start. Now, starting for Toronto, with a great defensive catcher caddying for him, he's putting up a 77 K/22 BB ratio over his last 63 innings. How well would that play in Safeco?

I know which side of that trade I'd want to be on.

backbencher
08-09-2010, 08:02 PM
I know which side of that trade I'd want to be on.

Sure. But every trade is a risk, and every GM makes bad trades.

The Morrow trade couldn't have helped the cause of the coaching staff, but no one cans a staff to change the news cycle. At least, no one since Steinbrenner died.

hebroncougar
08-09-2010, 09:34 PM
WAK was a dead man walking as he lost the clubhouse about the time Jr was falling asleep but his final nail was a couple of weeks ago...

This had zilch to do with events of the weekend...

This is 100% dead on. That whole Jr. fiasco was the beginning of the end.

savafan
08-09-2010, 11:38 PM
Okay, just to let you all know, calling up your local Kroger and asking if they have Don Wakamatsu in a can...not a very good joke.

camisadelgolf
08-10-2010, 12:01 AM
Okay, just to let you all know, calling up your local Kroger and asking if they have Don Wakamatsu in a can...not a very good joke.
I'm so glad you pointed that out. I totally misread the thread title before opening it.
http://www.sportingcollection.com/whips/w235/w235/w235.jpg

Big Klu
08-10-2010, 01:17 AM
I'm so glad you pointed that out. I totally misread the thread title before opening it.
http://www.sportingcollection.com/whips/w235/w235/w235.jpg

Man, are they strict!

http://www.scvhistory.com/gif/lw2145a.jpg

westofyou
08-10-2010, 10:29 AM
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/08/09/why-we-miss-the-obvious-mariners-edition/#more-3792



It all seems so obvious now, doesn’t it? Bringing back Ken Griffey? Trading for Milton Bradley? Giving 32-year-old Chone Figgins (and his lifetime 99 OPS+) a big-money four-year deal based mostly on one good season (and them moving him to second base)? Signing 32-year-old Jack Wilson to a multi-year contract though he had not played a full-season in two years? Going into the season with Rob Johnson, and his 58 career OPS+, slotted as the regular catcher? Trading for light-hitting Casey Kotchman and inserting him as the Opening Day No. 3 hitter? Building up all sorts of hopes about Ian Snell as a No. 3 starter? Making the moves of a “contender” when the team finished dead last in the American League in runs scored in 2009 and were outscored by 52 runs? Trading a 25-year-old one-time phenom Brandon Morrow and his 98-mph fastball for an older hard-throwing reliever with the same first name (Brandon League)? Expecting another low ERA closer year from David Aardsma? Letting go of Russell Branyan who was one of only two good offensive players on the team in 2009 (he led the team in OPS+)?

Yes, it seems so obvious now that the Seattle Mariners were likely to have a terrible crash this season. And it probably should have seemed obvious in February too. And it probably WAS obvious then — Monday’s firing of manager Don Wakamatsu was etched in stone back before spring training.

But a whole lot of us missed it. Why?

WMR
08-10-2010, 11:54 AM
Reads like the GM should be firing himself along with Wakamatsu.

blumj
08-10-2010, 12:48 PM
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/08/09/why-we-miss-the-obvious-mariners-edition/#more-3792

Same reason no one saw the Padres coming, sometimes, all you do need is a handful of good to great performers and the rest of your team is scraps and it's enough. Sometimes, you can have good to great players all over the field and it isn't.

TheNext44
08-10-2010, 01:21 PM
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/08/09/why-we-miss-the-obvious-mariners-edition/#more-3792

The only move that at the time was questionable was the Bradley trade. All the others made sense... at the time.

Poz is off base on this one.

westofyou
08-10-2010, 01:22 PM
Swapping Figgens and Lopez poses a good question, as does not signing Branyan and then going out to get him later.

lollipopcurve
08-10-2010, 03:46 PM
The only move that at the time was questionable was the Bradley trade. All the others made sense... at the time.

Giving up on Brandon Morrow for a setup guy didn't make much sense, IMO.

jojo
08-10-2010, 03:48 PM
Swapping Figgens and Lopez poses a good question, as does not signing Branyan and then going out to get him later.

I think the 2010 Ms can be best summed up as a construct of a series of calculated risks given the payroll target and some bad decisions at the margins that dramatically limited their margin for error.

To me the biggest criticism of the Ms roster going into April was the amount of risk associated with the roster-i.e. Jack Wilson needs to stay healthy as an example- and the decision at DH that basically exacerbated this by making the 25 man roster so inflexible.

Lopez to third is taking a bad situation and trying to improve it. The Branyan decision is completely defensible if one looks at the facts concerning his contract demands. The Figgins contract is a good one concerning FA contracts and estimations of true skill. I suppose one could argue about targeted him in the first place but he clearly made a lot of sense for the Ms and no one would've projected his current level of performance. The Morrow trade is also defensible (see below). His mismanagement during the Bavasi era essentially set the stage for an untenable tenure with the new FO. By the time, Z got the reigns Morrow himself couldn't answer whether he wanted to be a starter or a reliever the same way if asked the question twice in 5 minutes... Ultimately again, another calculated risk. They chose a high leverage reliever and an outfielder who is working his way through the minors on a year long offensive tear over the risk that Morrow might only eventually become a high leverage reliever. People can debate that one but I'd definitely suggest that anyone who suggests it isn't even debatable, might not be coming at the issue in an unbiased manner...

I think a better question than the one Poz posed using hindsight would be how is it possible that every calculated risk came up so decidedly snake eyes? In other words, who would've predicted so many key components of the roster would perform so dramatically below their true talents?

The Ms roster wasn't one constructed based upon unrealistic expectations. It was one that was mostly constructed with a razor thin margin of error, certain payroll limitations and an edict to sign Jr. The 2010 Ms are much more a product of bad luck than bad decisions per se at the heart of the roster while decisions made at the margins were like putting up hay wet in a dry season.


I think this was about the Ms deciding Morrow's road to being a starter is fraught with too many perils...

He throws hard but has a straight fastball with poor secondary stuff. He can't get lefties out. He has physical issues which may make it impractical for him to carry a starter's load over the course of a season. And then there is his desire to develop as a starter-provided this development only occurs at the major league level.

Dave Cameron at USSM also weaves a theory (http://ussmariner.com/2009/12/23/choose-your-own-conclusion/comment-page-3/#comment-359491) that Morrow was a postponed part of the Lee-Halladay blockbuster which if true would color things as well...

bucksfan2
08-10-2010, 03:52 PM
JoJo I think you can consider the Mariners 2010 season an epic fail. Their opening day lineup consisted of

3. Kotchman
4. Bradley
5. Griffey, J.
6. Lopez

westofyou
08-10-2010, 03:58 PM
JoJo I think you can consider the Mariners 2010 season an epic fail. Their opening day lineup consisted of

3. Kotchman
4. Bradley
5. Griffey, J.
6. Lopez

The Teflon Franchise

jojo
08-10-2010, 04:30 PM
The Teflon Franchise

Kotchman was part of a platoon and in that role he figured to be something akin to a league average player. Bradley was projected as a plus bat who given the roster construction wasn't going to be counted upon to give more than around 450 PAs. While clearly Bradley was a clubhouse issue, who here would've argued the Reds should've made a deal for Silva last January? Besides it wasn't exactly like Silva was a clubhouse treat either... In fact Silva was a threat to eat the clubhouse. Also the Ms had several arms that could approximate what Silva might give them while they didn't have a surplus of plus bats. Lopez was projected to be a roughly major league average player and the Ms were stuck with him. Jr, clearly a bad decision made for reasons unrelated to baseball. Outside of Jr-and really even he would've been expected to be at least serviceable in a limited role mostly DHing against righties-why should anyone have expected the performances the Ms have gotten from these guys thus far this season?

Seriously, context and details are pretty important.

Sea Ray
08-10-2010, 04:39 PM
I bet the the A's, Rangers and Angels are hoping Mariner ownership shares Jojo's opinion of the current front office

jojo
08-10-2010, 04:43 PM
I bet the the A's, Rangers and Angels are hoping Mariner ownership shares Jojo's opinion of the current front office

I bet they're not. Seriously, details and context make a big difference if one really wants to understand a decision.

backbencher
08-10-2010, 04:43 PM
Kotchman was part of a platoon and in that role he figured to be something akin to a league average player. Bradley was projected as a plus bat who given the roster construction wasn't going to be counted upon to give more than around 450 PAs. While clearly Bradley was a clubhouse issue, who here would've argued the Reds should've made a deal for Silva last January? Besides it wasn't exactly like Silva was a clubhouse treat either... In fact Silva was a threat to eat the clubhouse. Also the Ms had several arms that could approximate what Silva might give them while they didn't have a surplus of plus bats. Lopez was projected to be a roughly major league average player and the Ms were stuck with him. Jr, clearly a bad decision made for reasons unrelated to baseball. Outside of Jr-and really even he would've been expected to be at least serviceable in a limited role mostly DHing against righties-why should anyone have expected the performances the Ms have gotten from these guys thus far this season?

Seriously, context and details are pretty important.

So they went into the season with platoons at first and DH? How does that roster work?

I like that the Mariners tried to put together as real defense-and-pitching roster. I'm a bit surprised at their overall performance, given the better-than-expected seasons from Vargas and Fister, but I guess Rowland-Smith makes up for part of that.

With Morrow, I agree -- what are you going to do? Sometimes guys just need a change of scenery.

jojo
08-10-2010, 04:47 PM
So they went into the season with platoons at first and DH? How does that roster work?

That's a very legit question.

lollipopcurve
08-10-2010, 05:00 PM
The Morrow trade is also defensible (see below). His mismanagement during the Bavasi era essentially set the stage for an untenable tenure with the new FO. By the time, Z got the reigns Morrow himself couldn't answer whether he wanted to be a starter or a reliever the same way if asked the question twice in 5 minutes... Ultimately again, another calculated risk. They chose a high leverage reliever and an outfielder who is working his way through the minors on a year long offensive tear over the risk that Morrow might only eventually become a high leverage reliever. People can debate that one but I'd definitely suggest that anyone who suggests it isn't even debatable, might not be coming at the issue in an unbiased manner...

Ah yes, the trusty "blame it on Bavasi" argument absolves the current braintrust, despite the fact Morrow had had a full year under them. One can argue Morrow was mishandled, but that has to include the current FO, who'd seen him for a year and decided he could be jettisoned for a setup guy. Jocketty got as much for Griffey on his last legs. (The minor leaguer the Mariners got in that deal is playing in High Desert, a hitters paradise -- several teammates match or surpass his numbers. A prospect, perhaps, but nothing to crow about at this point.)

Franchises screw up when they give up on their best young arms too soon. That's what has happened here with Morrow. Seattle did not complete his development -- if they concluded his secondary stuff would force him into the pen, they misevaluated. The current FO had a full year to understand what they had in Morrow. You can't push it all on Bavasi -- and if you recognize that Morrow is now a valuable asset, you have to give Bavasi's regime some credit for drafting him.

Seattle seemed to think they were a contender. They thought their defense would be a key ingredient. Sounded great, and of course statistically avant garde, what with all the defensive metrics, but it looks to have been a gross miscalculation.

Now the Lee trade is looking iffy too. Smoak struggled badly and is now back in AAA. Montero, a guy they could have had, is heating up nicely in AAA for the Yanks. Long way to go yet, of course. Still, how long will it be till Zduriencik's honeymoon ends? There's a hard uphill climb ahead.

jojo
08-10-2010, 05:14 PM
Ah yes, the trusty "blame it on Bavasi" argument absolves the current braintrust, despite the fact Morrow had had a full year under them. One can argue Morrow was mishandled, but that has to include the current FO, who'd seen him for a year and decided he could be jettisoned for a setup guy. Jocketty got as much for Griffey on his last legs. (The minor leaguer the Mariners got in that deal is playing in High Desert, a hitters paradise -- several teammates match or surpass his numbers. A prospect, perhaps, but nothing to crow about at this point.

I think it was pretty clear that I indicated the current FO made the decision.


Seattle seemed to think they were a contender. They thought their defense would be a key ingredient. Sounded great, and of course statistically avant garde, what with all the defensive metrics, but it looks to have been a gross miscalculation.

Lets skip the platitude and ask this-how has the Ms defense missed the impact that it was projected to have? It would've been projected to be worth on the order of 30+ runs based upon the opening day roster and UZR. It's on track to come pretty close to that.

Again, the narrative doesn't fit the details and context.


Now the Lee trade is looking iffy too. Smoak struggled badly and is now back in AAA. Montero, a guy they could have had, is heating up nicely in AAA for the Yanks. Long way to go yet, of course. Still, how long will it be till Zduriencik's honeymoon ends? There's a hard uphill climb ahead.

You're calling scoreboard after a couple of weeks? Seriously.

Again, there is no such thing as a honeymoon.... point to where the arguments are seriously flawed and then call bias....