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View Full Version : Bailey scratched from his start tonight (8/10)



RedsMan3203
08-10-2010, 11:51 AM
Jukich is now the pitcher listed for starting...

Homer is more than likely on his way up to Cincinnati to replace someone on the roster...

Mike Leake?
Carlos Fisher?
DFA Nix?
Send Heisey/Bruce/Stubbs down?

Caveat Emperor
08-10-2010, 11:52 AM
Homer up, Leake to the DL with "shoulder fatigue" or some other phantom injury.

Hoosier Red
08-10-2010, 11:55 AM
CE, why to the DL? Why not just option him? Just curious.

cumberlandreds
08-10-2010, 11:58 AM
Homer up, Leake to the DL with "shoulder fatigue" or some other phantom injury.

That would be my guess too. I would think rest is the better option for Leake than sending him to Louisville.

Caveat Emperor
08-10-2010, 12:01 PM
CE, why to the DL? Why not just option him? Just curious.

My understanding, and I might be wrong since we don't talk about this sort of thing around here on a regular basis, is that he can still be eligible for the postseason if he's on a rehab assignment as of August 31st, but not if he's been optioned to the minors on that date.

Thus, they can stash him for 2 weeks, let him throw a few rehab games, and have him back up for September -- postseason eligible -- to pitch a bit down the stretch. Otherwise, if you send him down, he has to be back up by August 31st if the team wants him available for the playoffs (should they make it that far).

Plus, on the DL he's actually OFF for 2 weeks as opposed to pitching. Might be good for him.

Hoosier Red
08-10-2010, 12:05 PM
My understanding, and I might be wrong since we don't talk about this sort of thing around here on a regular basis, is that he can still be eligible for the postseason if he's on a rehab assignment as of August 31st, but not if he's been optioned to the minors on that date.

Thus, they can stash him for 2 weeks, let him throw a few rehab games, and have him back up for September -- postseason eligible -- to pitch a bit down the stretch. Otherwise, if you send him down, he has to be back up by August 31st if the team wants him available for the playoffs (should they make it that far).

Plus, on the DL he's actually OFF for 2 weeks as opposed to pitching. Might be good for him.


Makes sense. If Louisville ends up making the post season I'd hate to be their opponents with Harang and Leake and Wood all making "rehab" starts.

guttle11
08-10-2010, 12:05 PM
Yeah, if Leake has as much as a hangnail I'd put him on the DL. And make him a reliever after the 2 weeks are up. Leake and Chapman are the future of the rotation, but the rest of the year they're better served out of the pen. Cueto, Arroyo and Wood are the go to starters from here on out.

Razor Shines
08-10-2010, 12:11 PM
Yeah, Leake to the DL sounds right. He needs rest and maybe, MAYBE, he could be valuable after that. Coco needs the same thing IMO.

Redmachine2003
08-10-2010, 12:12 PM
If they dl him they could bring wood back before his 10 days are up

Roy Tucker
08-10-2010, 12:16 PM
When I first saw this title of this thread, I thought Homer had suffered a setback in his rehab and said "oh fudge".

GoReds
08-10-2010, 12:22 PM
Are we taking into consideration service time? If he's on the MLB DL, his service time continues to acrue. Why not option him to Louisville and put him on the DL there?

MattyHo4Life
08-10-2010, 12:22 PM
Homer up, Leake to the DL with "shoulder fatigue" or some other phantom injury.

Do you really think it is Leake? I was guessing they sent Fisher down when I first read this.

Puffy
08-10-2010, 12:25 PM
When I first saw this title of this thread, I thought Homer had suffered a setback in his rehab and said "oh fudge".

Now, did you really say "fudge" or did you use a different, stronger word??

The Operator
08-10-2010, 12:34 PM
Homer up, Leake to the DL with "shoulder fatigue" or some other phantom injury.

That'd be my guess. And that's the best option. He gets rest, and he gets to stay with the big club which will help his mentality, IMO.

Roy Tucker
08-10-2010, 12:39 PM
Now, did you really say "fudge" or did you use a different, stronger word??

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XgzEDqYHPLc/S1Jk48ZiUgI/AAAAAAAAC0w/ZlgK-cndM5k/s320/ralphie+soap.jpg

HotCorner
08-10-2010, 12:43 PM
My personal fav: dead arm syndrome

11larkin11
08-10-2010, 12:54 PM
My guess: Homer and Chapman up, Fisher to AAA Leake to DL

membengal
08-10-2010, 12:59 PM
Because it made SOOO much sense to send Leake out to pitch the first game of one of the most important series this team has had in a decade, only to mothball him a day later.

Great planning, front office.

redsmetz
08-10-2010, 01:03 PM
Unless he's jumping right into the rotation in the next day or so, why scratch Bailey on the day he's scheduled to start? That's what has me puzzled.

HotCorner
08-10-2010, 01:08 PM
This from Fay ...


Homer Bailey was originally scheduled to start tonight for Louisville. He is going to pitch in relief instead. That would put him in line to start Friday, Mike Leake’s next turn.

However he's wrong because Volquez would start Friday with the off day Thursday.

HotCorner
08-10-2010, 01:11 PM
I never understood why they didn't just align the rotation for this series Cueto-Bailey-Arroyo. Cueto pitched last Wednesday which would have kept him on a normal schedule. Plus Bailey was scheduled to pitch today and has had some recent success against the Cards.

Hoosier Red
08-10-2010, 01:13 PM
Because it made SOOO much sense to send Leake out to pitch the first game of one of the most important series this team has had in a decade, only to mothball him a day later.

Great planning, front office.

Mem, we've been having an excellent conversation on this topic on the other thread, I think there's a feeling that getting what you can out of him while you can makes sense. Not to say that the FO's thinking is perfect, but rather the tone inferred by me that the Reds were idiots for throwing Leake out there when everyone knew he was going to get bombed and Wood would have thrown a no hitter and the Reds would win the world series if only they would listen to me but they don't because they're idiots, perhaps does not give the credit where it is due. But I suppose this is the language of internet message boards as much as anything.

membengal
08-10-2010, 01:15 PM
I never understood why they didn't just align the rotation for this series Cueto-Bailey-Arroyo. Cueto pitched last Wednesday which would have kept him on a normal schedule. Plus Bailey was scheduled to pitch today and has had some recent success against the Cards.

Word. That was an option that made sense too.

Or flip-flopping Wood and Leake to get a Wood/Cueto/Arroyo.

I wanted the Reds front office to do everything they could to give the team the best chance to win, and they didn't do it when it came to the game one pitching situation.

Goodness knows, the Cardinals certainly took it seriously enough to get their rotation squared away...

membengal
08-10-2010, 01:18 PM
Mem, we've been having an excellent conversation on this topic on the other thread, I think there's a feeling that getting what you can out of him while you can makes sense. Not to say that the FO's thinking is perfect, but rather the tone inferred by me that the Reds were idiots for throwing Leake out there when everyone knew he was going to get bombed and Wood would have thrown a no hitter and the Reds would win the world series if only they would listen to me but they don't because they're idiots, perhaps does not give the credit where it is due. But I suppose this is the language of internet message boards as much as anything.

I guess I don't like the tone of the italics. That is a gross parody of what has been said and is completely unfair.

In general, and this certainly applies to me, I firmly believe that Wood gives this team a better chance to win in games he starts right now than Leake does. At this juncture in 2010, I am pretty confident of that.

Going forward in 2011, I fully expect Leake to be a huge cog in this rotation. He deserves all sorts of kudos and thanks for what he did to get this team to this point, but, at this juncture, he is by no means a better option than Travis Wood. And certainly not against a team like the Cardinals in a big game spot.

There is no need to twist my words to more than that.

Kc61
08-10-2010, 01:18 PM
Word. That was an option that made sense too.

Or flip-flopping Wood and Leake to get a Wood/Cueto/Arroyo.

I wanted the Reds front office to do everything they could to give the team the best chance to win, and they didn't do it when it came to the game one pitching situation.

Goodness knows, the Cardinals certainly took it seriously enough to get their rotation squared away...

Here's another way to look at it.

Reds were going to have a tough time beating Carpenter Monday.

So they used Wood Sunday and beat the Cubs. Now they have Cueto and Arroyo lined up, the two best starters, to pitch against the Cards.

The only sacrifice was using Leake Monday. He was a long shot to beat Carpenter.

As for Bailey, I agree with the decision to keep him down in AAA until this weekend. Guy has been out a long time, I can understand the decision not to rush him back for the Cardinals.

So it makes sense IMO.

membengal
08-10-2010, 01:20 PM
I hate giving games away, KC. And that one felt given away from the get go last night, Leake against Carpenter. And now St. Louis is a leg up in an important series.

reds44
08-10-2010, 01:22 PM
So wouldn't it make sense to put Wood on the DL and call up a reliever (COUGH CHAPMAN) for tonight's game?

Cedric
08-10-2010, 01:24 PM
Mem, we've been having an excellent conversation on this topic on the other thread, I think there's a feeling that getting what you can out of him while you can makes sense. Not to say that the FO's thinking is perfect, but rather the tone inferred by me that the Reds were idiots for throwing Leake out there when everyone knew he was going to get bombed and Wood would have thrown a no hitter and the Reds would win the world series if only they would listen to me but they don't because they're idiots, perhaps does not give the credit where it is due. But I suppose this is the language of internet message boards as much as anything.

The tone inferred by you is wrong on what I have read. It was a weird decision to let Leake pitch last night.

Does that mean I hate Jocketty or think Travis Wood is the next Koufax? Of course not.

Hoosier Red
08-10-2010, 01:25 PM
I guess I don't like the tone of the italics. That is a gross parody of what has been said and is completely unfair.

In general, and this certainly applies to me, I firmly believe that Wood gives this team a better chance to win in games he starts right now than Leake does. At this juncture in 2010, I am pretty confident of that.

Going forward in 2011, I fully expect Leake to be a huge cog in this rotation. He deserves all sorts of kudos and thanks for what he did to get this team to this point, but, at this juncture, he is by no means a better option than Travis Wood. And certainly not against a team like the Cardinals in a big game spot.

There is no need to twist my words to more than that.

Well admittedly it's an exaggeration to prove a point. I wasn't trying to twist what you said. I'm putting the rest in a PM because I don't want to derail a thread on what I meant but it certainly wasn't meant to be a personal attack.

harangatang
08-10-2010, 01:33 PM
Because it made SOOO much sense to send Leake out to pitch the first game of one of the most important series this team has had in a decade, only to mothball him a day later.

Great planning, front office.This game was not the determining game of who wins the NL Central. The Cardinals are one game closer to the Reds now, but pitching him later in the series could actually be more pressure. Chances are the Reds lose this game regardless of who they throw out there.

Kc61
08-10-2010, 01:37 PM
I hate giving games away, KC. And that one felt given away from the get go last night, Leake against Carpenter. And now St. Louis is a leg up in an important series.


I hate giving them away too, but the "fifth starter" spot has to pitch sometime.

At least the Reds are now set up with their two top starters ready to face the Cards tonight and tomorrow.

Brutus
08-10-2010, 01:39 PM
The tone inferred by you is wrong on what I have read. It was a weird decision to let Leake pitch last night.

Does that mean I hate Jocketty or think Travis Wood is the next Koufax? Of course not.

I did not find anything wrong with him pitching last night. I saw nothing weird about it whatsoever.

Fact is, for three innings, he was inducing weak grounders and harmless pop flies. In the fourth inning, a couple of a seeing-eye-singles found their way through the infield as well as an infield single. Unfortunately, after a bunch of hits found their way, he left a ball up in the zone that Schumaker crushed.

I really saw no evidence last night that Leake got hit because of fatigue. While I think he is showing signs of slowing down, I think it's a convenient excuse by people here to explain a natural occurrance when a rookie goes through lineups a second and third time in a season.

Cedric
08-10-2010, 01:45 PM
I did not find anything wrong with him pitching last night. I saw nothing weird about it whatsoever.

Fact is, for three innings, he was inducing weak grounders and harmless pop flies. In the fourth inning, a couple of a seeing-eye-singles found their way through the infield as well as an infield single. Unfortunately, after a bunch of hits found their way, he left a ball up in the zone that Schumaker crushed.

I really saw no evidence last night that Leake got hit because of fatigue. While I think he is showing signs of slowing down, I think it's a convenient excuse by people here to explain a natural occurrance when a rookie goes through lineups a second and third time in a season.

I didn't see fatigue either. I saw a guy that was extremely lucky through April and parts of May.

If this year is the real Mike Leake I don't see much of a future for the kid. Doesn't miss ANY bats and has serious middling stuff.

Brutus
08-10-2010, 01:51 PM
I didn't see fatigue either. I saw a guy that was extremely lucky through April and parts of May.

If this year is the real Mike Leake I don't see much of a future for the kid. Doesn't miss ANY bats and has serious middling stuff.

By definition, middling is middle-of-the-road or mediocre. You don't go straight to the big leagues with "middling" stuff.

He doesn't miss a ton of bats, but he also makes up for it by having a lot of great movement on his pitches. What he's done is not a fluke and it's not luck. He's hard to square up and make great contact against.

After he adjusts to the adjustments (more likely will be going into next year than this year), he'll be one of the better pitchers in the league. Mark my words on that.

Cedric
08-10-2010, 01:56 PM
By definition, middling is middle-of-the-road or mediocre. You don't go straight to the big leagues with "middling" stuff.

He doesn't miss a ton of bats, but he also makes up for it by having a lot of great movement on his pitches. What he's done is not a fluke and it's not luck. He's hard to square up and make great contact against.

After he adjusts to the adjustments (more likely will be going into next year than this year), he'll be one of the better pitchers in the league. Mark my words on that.

I hope you are right. I just don't see any projection in his ability. He seems to be now as good as he can be. I think Jocketty and the FO said as much by starting him here.

CTA513
08-10-2010, 02:02 PM
The highlights I saw of last nights game showed Leake getting beat on pitches that were up in the zone.
Leake doesn't have good enough stuff to get away with that.


63 2/3 IP, 83 H, 45 R (36 ER), 19 BB, 35 K - 11 HR - 5.08 ERA - 1.60 WHIP

Thats what Leake has done since the start of June.

bucksfan2
08-10-2010, 02:03 PM
I hate giving games away, KC. And that one felt given away from the get go last night, Leake against Carpenter. And now St. Louis is a leg up in an important series.

How did they give that game away? I just don't get it. Dusty loaded the lineup with lefty after lefty. He sent a guy out there in Leake who has had a pretty good season up to this point. Even if you felt that Wood was a better option than Leake they still needed to have a pitcher pitch Sunday. And a win on Sunday is no more important that a win on Monday.

Mem I just don't fully understand your whole logic behind "the front office was wrong". You had to have a pitcher pitch against Carpenter last night. That fell on Leake's rotation turn. The Reds didn't mess with their rotation like the Cards did. While we may look at this series as important, at the end of the year it is just another 3 games.

MattyHo4Life
08-10-2010, 02:19 PM
The Reds didn't mess with their rotation like the Cards did. While we may look at this series as important, at the end of the year it is just another 3 games.

I know this has been mentioned over and over so much that it has become a fact, but how did the Cards mess with their rotation. These starts are on regular 5 days rest for Carp and Wainwright. Garcia is getting a couple of extra days rest, but he's been getting etra rest for awhile now.

reds44
08-10-2010, 02:20 PM
I know this has been mentioned over and over so much that it has become a fact, but how did the Cards mess with their rotation. These starts are on regular 5 days rest for Carp and Wainwright. Garcia is getting a couple of extra days rest, but he's been getting etra rest for awhile now.
LaRussa started Wainwright on 3 days rest in New York to line him up.

bucksfan2
08-10-2010, 02:22 PM
LaRussa started Wainwright on 3 days rest in New York to line him up.

I didn't exactly know what was done but it was reported that Abner LaRussa adjusted his lineup. Thanks for the clarification.

Caveat Emperor
08-10-2010, 02:29 PM
I never understood why they didn't just align the rotation for this series Cueto-Bailey-Arroyo. Cueto pitched last Wednesday which would have kept him on a normal schedule. Plus Bailey was scheduled to pitch today and has had some recent success against the Cards.

Bailey's been a notch short of awful this season. He's coming off a dominating start in AAA, but the back of the guy's baseball card doesn't lie.

It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for Walt -- if he calls up Homer to make the start and he gets shelled, people are griping tomorrow that Leake didn't take the turn.

lollipopcurve
08-10-2010, 02:43 PM
The highlights I saw of last nights game showed Leake getting beat on pitches that were up in the zone.

Yep. He's not keeping the ball down nearly as well, and I don't think he's pitching inside as much as before.

Not concerned about him though. He needs a break, sure. But this kid is going to continue to succeed.

MattyHo4Life
08-10-2010, 03:03 PM
LaRussa started Wainwright on 3 days rest in New York to line him up.

Really?

These are Adam's most recent starts.

7/22 PHI
7/23 1
7/24 2
7/25 3
7/26 4
7/27 NY
7/28 1
7/29 2
7/30 3
7/31 4
8/1 PIT
8/2 1
8/3 2
8/4 3
8/5 4
8/6 FL
8/7 1
8/8 2
8/9 3
8/10 4
8/11 CIN

I counted exactly 4 days rest between every start. You can't always believe everything that is reported by the media.

traderumor
08-10-2010, 03:10 PM
Yep. He's not keeping the ball down nearly as well, and I don't think he's pitching inside as much as before.

Not concerned about him though. He needs a break, sure. But this kid is going to continue to succeed.He's got classic sinkerball tired arm symptoms--getting ball up, little to no late movement. Rx is: Rest, cya next year, Mike.

RedLegSuperStar
08-10-2010, 03:21 PM
Could Walt of made another trade? Maybe he'll bless us with one everyday this week. Hehe

CrackerJack
08-10-2010, 03:26 PM
Because it made SOOO much sense to send Leake out to pitch the first game of one of the most important series this team has had in a decade, only to mothball him a day later.

Great planning, front office.

Yeah I'm not really sure what they were expecting to happen after the last 2 months worth of starts for Leake.

It's August 10th, time to act with a bit more urgency Walt/Dusty.

Sea Ray
08-10-2010, 03:28 PM
I've never heard Leake complain about his arm or shoulder nor that he was tired. Frankly he was pitching awfully well before they started screwing with his 5 day routine. I wonder if privately Leake wishes they'd left him alone.

I'm not convinced that his recent problems are tied to any physical ailment

CrackerJack
08-10-2010, 03:32 PM
I didn't see fatigue either. I saw a guy that was extremely lucky through April and parts of May.

If this year is the real Mike Leake I don't see much of a future for the kid. Doesn't miss ANY bats and has serious middling stuff.

I don't know how a fan can eye ball "fatigue" in a pitcher.

His pitches were not moving, his sinker was not sinking in particular.

Not a single trip to the mound last night during that ridiculous 4th inning from what I remember either.

He's been bad for quite some time now, but seems to be able to string together 3-4 innings of scoreless ball regularly, so maybe he's best used as a long reliever for now.

Hoosier Red
08-10-2010, 03:34 PM
I don't know how a fan can eye ball "fatigue" in a pitcher.

His pitches were not moving, his sinker was not sinking in particular.

Not a single trip to the mound last night during that ridiculous 4th inning from what I remember either.

He's been bad for quite some time now, but seems to be able to string together 3-4 innings of scoreless ball regularly, so maybe he's best used as a long reliever for now.

Price went out after either the second run scoring single or the infield single. I think it was the latter.

traderumor
08-10-2010, 03:34 PM
I don't know how a fan can eye ball "fatigue" in a pitcher.

His pitches were not moving, his sinker was not sinking in particular.
Not a single trip to the mound last night during that ridiculous 4th inning from what I remember either.

He's been bad for quite some time now, but seems to be able to string together 3-4 innings of scoreless ball regularly, so maybe he's best used as a long reliever for now.

You answered your own question.

_Sir_Charles_
08-10-2010, 04:06 PM
Homer up, Leake to the DL with "shoulder fatigue" or some other phantom injury.

Naw....simply option Mike to Louisville. Burning an option isn't a bad thing. With the backlog of starters we've got, I think he's clearly the odd man out at this time. Let him continue to log some innings...but I'd rather have the fresher arm up with the big club...and that's Homer.

membengal
08-10-2010, 04:08 PM
How did they give that game away? I just don't get it. Dusty loaded the lineup with lefty after lefty. He sent a guy out there in Leake who has had a pretty good season up to this point. Even if you felt that Wood was a better option than Leake they still needed to have a pitcher pitch Sunday. And a win on Sunday is no more important that a win on Monday.

Mem I just don't fully understand your whole logic behind "the front office was wrong". You had to have a pitcher pitch against Carpenter last night. That fell on Leake's rotation turn. The Reds didn't mess with their rotation like the Cards did. While we may look at this series as important, at the end of the year it is just another 3 games.

I have already, on several occasions in this thread, and the other companion thread, laid out two alternatives to starting Leake last night that the Reds chose not to do. In fact, I extolled both those options at some point in the last week in other threads WELL ahead of last night's game. So I am not pure second-guessing.

Forgive me, I am not going to type it again.

The Reds chose to roll the dice with Leake (who you all should know I LOVE as a pitcher but who has now had a 5.08 ERA since June 1 and lucky it's not higher due to the Pirates game...) against Carpenter when they had at least two other options, one of which was rather simple and got them Wood to the start of this series.

I like that St. Louis shifted their rotation around in an acknowledgement of how important Game 1 and all the games of this series were. I hate that St. Louis is not a leg up on this thing and that puts a lot more pressure on the Reds for games 2 and 3.

I am rather jealous that they did that. I wish our front office had done the same.

ETA: What's done is done, and I hope Cueto meets the moment tonight and owns the evening...

MattyHo4Life
08-10-2010, 04:14 PM
I like that St. Louis shifted their rotation around in an acknowledgement of how important Game 1 and all the games of this series were. I hate that St. Louis is not a leg up on this thing and that puts a lot more pressure on the Reds for games 2 and 3.

I am rather jealous that they did that. I wish our front office had done the same.

This serious is very important to the Cardinals, but I still don't understand how the Cardinals shifted their rotation for this series. Wainwright did not pitch on 3 days rest against the Mets.

Hoosier Red
08-10-2010, 04:21 PM
Mem- I think one of the starting points you have which is obviously different from the Reds brain trust is how important this series is. The Reds do not seem to place a lot of importance on this series as being more than 1 in 162.

I think it's overstating things to say that because the Reds didn't take an alternative plan that they "gave away" the game.

But even if they did, in the end it's 1 out of 162. Would Leake necessarily have been better on Sunday, if not is that giving away a game at the end of a road trip?

If these are my two scenarios: 1) Have Mike Leake pitch on Monday against Chris Carpenter, and send down Travis Wood to make sure he's fresh on September 1(also against the Cardinals,) or 2) Juggle my rotation to make sure that Travis Wood pitches on Monday and face the possibility of wearing down both arms.

I'm not sure I wouldn't still go with the first option. If Travis Wood ends up going 8 innings in Louisville than obviously I have no idea what they were doing, but if this protects Wood's arm and gets an extra 2 weeks out of it than it will be worthwhile.

Hoosier Red
08-10-2010, 04:23 PM
This serious is very important to the Cardinals, but I still don't understand how the Cardinals shifted their rotation for this series. Wainwright did not pitch on 3 days rest against the Mets.

Matty, you know the team better than we do. They adjusted Wainwright in the NYM series(even though it was apparantly on 4 day's rest.) At the time Larussa said it was to line up Carpenter and Wainwright for the Reds series.

Of course this was before Jake Westrbook came in and the difference between Wainwright and Hawksworth is an ocean compared to the difference between Leake and Wood.

Cedric
08-10-2010, 04:28 PM
Matty, you know the team better than we do. They adjusted Wainwright in the NYM series(even though it was apparantly on 4 day's rest.) At the time Larussa said it was to line up Carpenter and Wainwright for the Reds series.

Of course this was before Jake Westrbook came in and the difference between Wainwright and Hawksworth is an ocean compared to the difference between Leake and Wood.

Actually Leake has given up something like 37 runs in his last 52 innings.

He has been one of the worst pitchers in baseball for a decent while now.

Cedric
08-10-2010, 04:30 PM
After going back and looking at the numbers it is 42 earned runs in 55 innings. That's approaching Charlie Morton territory.

MattyHo4Life
08-10-2010, 04:39 PM
Matty, you know the team better than we do. They adjusted Wainwright in the NYM series(even though it was apparantly on 4 day's rest.) At the time Larussa said it was to line up Carpenter and Wainwright for the Reds series.

Of course this was before Jake Westrbook came in and the difference between Wainwright and Hawksworth is an ocean compared to the difference between Leake and Wood.

I don't think LaRussa ever said that. I might be wrong, but I don't remember hearing those comments from LaRussa. I think those comments came from a lazy reporter. The Cardinals don't have a set 5 man or even a set 4 man rotation, so sometimes it may appear that they are juggling the rotation for a certain series. LaRussa would do that...he just didn't do it in this instance. The only pitchers on a set rotation are Carpenter and Wainwright. They pitch every 5 days regardless of days off. Do you blame the Cards for pitching them as much as they can? After that, the other pitchers fall into place. Wainwright was always going ot pitch that game against the Mets, it was his 5th day. Some teams would push it back because of the off day on Thursday, but Carpenter and Wainwright don't get pushed back.

When the Cardinals traded for Westbrook (on a Saturday) some reporters asked LaRussa why he didn't start Westbrook on Sunday. LaRussa said that Lee and Oswalt didn't do so well in their first starts right after being traded. So they wanted to give Westbrook some time so they could work with him first. Westbrook started on Monday which pushed back Garcia to Tuesday. So if the Cards tinkered with their rotation, it was just to give Westbrook a spot on Monday that was going to be Garcia's spot. There was never any doubt that both Carp and Waino would be pitching in this series.

Hoosier Red
08-10-2010, 04:45 PM
I don't think LaRussa ever said that. I might be wrong, but I don't remember hearing those comments from LaRussa. I think those comments came from a lazy reporter.


That could be. We don't have to deal with lazy reporters in Cincinnati so I don't know what the amateur hour media is like in St. Louis. ;)

I agree with you, especially before Westbrook came, the difference between Wainwright and Carpenter and the 4th and 5th starters was so huge that it made sense to make sure Wainwright and Carpenter get as many starts as possible.

Now it still makes sense because even with Westbrook, it's going to take some massaging to get Garcia to the finish line.

sabometrics
08-10-2010, 04:49 PM
After going back and looking at the numbers it is 42 earned runs in 55 innings. That's approaching Charlie Morton territory.

His last 10 outings Leake has given up 36 ER in 56 2/3 IP for a 5.72 ERA. The 6 ER in Pittsburgh were wiped off the books after they slapped Rolen with the E-5.

membengal
08-10-2010, 04:57 PM
Mem- I think one of the starting points you have which is obviously different from the Reds brain trust is how important this series is. The Reds do not seem to place a lot of importance on this series as being more than 1 in 162.

I think it's overstating things to say that because the Reds didn't take an alternative plan that they "gave away" the game.

But even if they did, in the end it's 1 out of 162. Would Leake necessarily have been better on Sunday, if not is that giving away a game at the end of a road trip?

If these are my two scenarios: 1) Have Mike Leake pitch on Monday against Chris Carpenter, and send down Travis Wood to make sure he's fresh on September 1(also against the Cardinals,) or 2) Juggle my rotation to make sure that Travis Wood pitches on Monday and face the possibility of wearing down both arms.

I'm not sure I wouldn't still go with the first option. If Travis Wood ends up going 8 innings in Louisville than obviously I have no idea what they were doing, but if this protects Wood's arm and gets an extra 2 weeks out of it than it will be worthwhile.

Sliding Wood back to Monday would have given him an extra day of rest. Still not sure how that "wears down his arm". And, if he goes down to AAA and pitches, again, that kind of ruins the "preserve his innings" thesis...

sabometrics
08-10-2010, 04:59 PM
Why do you continue to just wave away all arguments that he won't pitch any more than 4 or 5 innings in AAA? That is "preserving" his innings in the best definition of the word while still keeping him in a regular routine and avoiding his arm accruing a healthy amount of rust.

I'll eat my fair share of crow if Sweet and Co. don't handle him that way, but I don't understand how that can be dismissed as not trying to limit his innings.

Cedric
08-10-2010, 05:01 PM
So we are willing to lose Wood for two starts because we want to limit his innings by probably 4 overall?

This is a pennant race and people wonder why old timers laugh about the way pitchers are babied today.

RedLegSuperStar
08-10-2010, 05:02 PM
Fay was saying on Twitter something along the lines that you hate to send Fisher down. This was after someone had asked about Bailey. It's hard to disifer Fay on a regular basis let alone via Twitter. So for what it's worth...

Sea Ray
08-10-2010, 05:56 PM
After going back and looking at the numbers it is 42 earned runs in 55 innings. That's approaching Charlie Morton territory.

It's not that bad. He had 6 runs removed from his earnie yesterday:


Mike Leake’s ERA drops from 3.86 to 3.43 effective immediately, entering his start tonight vs. St. Louis.

MLB today made a scoring change in the bottom of the second innings of Tuesday’s 7-6 loss at Pittsburgh. The hit by Lastings Milledge originally ruled a double has been changed to an error on Reds 3B Scott Rolen.

The scoring change adjusts the number of earned runs charged to Leake from 6 earned runs to zero

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/09/leake-benefits-from-scoring-change/

traderumor
08-10-2010, 06:10 PM
So we are willing to lose Wood for two starts because we want to limit his innings by probably 4 overall?

This is a pennant race and people wonder why old timers laugh about the way pitchers are babied today.I'm guessing the likes of Wayne Simpson, Gary Nolan and Don Gullett are thankful that these modern buffoons are careful with young men's meal ticket.

Joseph
08-10-2010, 06:12 PM
Bailey is pitching in relief tonight. Not sure if thats been stated in this thread or not.