PDA

View Full Version : Reds and Cards benches cleared when Phillips stepped in the box



Pages : 1 [2]

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 10:42 PM
How do you know for sure that he didn't?

Was he investigated by MLB? Suspended?

Would you have a problem with the Reds accusing a Cardinals player of cheating? Whether it be taking steroids or setting up cameras to steal signs or something else?

Big Klu
08-12-2010, 12:36 AM
5. Larue plainly was charging Cueto with hostile intent. I didn't see what Larue did to make Hernandez restrain him so aggressively, but while Hernandez was trying to restrain him, Larue went directly after Cueto. I'd like to feel bad about him getting kicked in the face, but he was charging in to the kick.


Carpenter is a jerk.

Larue acted like a linebacker whose team has just made an interception-- he goes for the equivalent of the other team's QB. Not necessarily honorable, but smart.

I used to like LaRue when he was in Cincinnati, but he is one of the players I dislike most now--he seems like a real jerk. I remember a couple of years ago, he went far out of the baseline to take out Jerry Hairston Jr. at 2B long after Hairston had gotten rid of the ball--it was clearly a dirty slide. When asked after the game why he had done that, he said that he didn't like Hairston. When told of LaRue's statement, JHJ was puzzled, and said that he didn't know why, because to his knowledge they had never had any interaction.

Also, a few people have mentioned that Carpenter and LaRue were caught on the "Kiss Cam", as visiting players often are for humorous effect. While Carpenter played along, LaRue made what I considered to be an inappropriate gesture while the camera was on him--the "Suck It" gesture popularized by Shawn Michaels and Triple H of the WWF. I can only assume that the gesture was directed toward the camera, and by extension the crowd.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2010, 12:57 AM
I used to like LaRue when he was in Cincinnati, but he is one of the players I dislike most now--he seems like a real jerk. I remember a couple of years ago, he went far out of the baseline to take out Jerry Hairston Jr. at 2B long after Hairston had gotten rid of the ball--it was clearly a dirty slide. When asked after the game why he had done that, he said that he didn't like Hairston. When told of LaRue's statement, JHJ was puzzled, and said that he didn't know why, because to his knowledge they had never had any interaction.

Also, a few people have mentioned that Carpenter and LaRue were caught on the "Kiss Cam", as visiting players often are for humorous effect. While Carpenter played along, LaRue made what I considered to be an inappropriate gesture while the camera was on him--the "Suck It" gesture popularized by Shawn Michaels and Triple H of the WWF. I can only assume that the gesture was directed toward the camera, and by extension the crowd.

I completely forgot about that LaRue/Hairston incident until you brought it up. Like you, Jason LaRue used to be a favorite of mine. Now I can't stand the guy. I don't know what it is but it seems like every player turns into a jerk after they put on the Cardinal uniform.

Another Reds/Cardinals incident that had nearly escaped my memory was the Kyle Lohse brushback pitch. If you may recall, Lohse was suspended for five games in 2008 for throwing a pitch behind Volquez's head. The bad blood between the Reds and Cardinals goes back a couple years.

marcshoe
08-12-2010, 01:37 AM
Hats off to MattyMo for hanging in here through all of this. I couldn't have done it without saying things that would have got me banned.

Chip R
08-12-2010, 09:19 AM
I think the Reds losing had more to do with the Cardinals rinky-dink ground balls finding holes, the Reds many defensive miscues, and lack of offense than it did Phillips' comments.


Not that you're wrong and I don't think Brandon's comments were some sort of rallying point for the Cards as much as the fans and the media would like us to believe it but if StL fans made that kind of a statement after being swept, we'd be the ones calling them whiners and sore losers. The facts are that StL got the job done and the Reds didn't. We'll see them again on Labor Day weekend in their yard.

REDREAD
08-12-2010, 09:28 AM
An objective viewer watching the video and knowing the media picked up on Phillips' comments from the night before could reasonably interpret the scenario as Phillips walking up to the plate with a chip on his shoulders posturing. Certainly a reasonable person would wonder why Phillips touched Molina with his bat. Did it hurt? no. But it certainly wasn't an accident and a reasonable person could interpret it as antagonistic.


Exactly.. Phillips was looking to start trouble.. He was the little child taunting his sibling until the sibling got mad enough to slug him. Both kids did the wrong thing, but I am amazed at the defense Phillips is getting here.

Hoosier Red
08-12-2010, 09:41 AM
None of it would have happened if a certain 2Bman had kept his mouth shut. You're getting ready to enter a very key series with the division rival you're battling for 1st place, and you get them all fired up by saying the crap he did? It was moronic and selfish IMO.

I want better for my team. You're no better then some of their players are when you decide to lower yourself and play their game. Take the high road. You know.... "sticks and stones".

So the Cards now leave town having swept our butts and taken over 1st place. No, it's not the end, nor time to panic. But it certainly makes the Reds look silly thanks to Phillip's comments. I certainly think a team meeting is in order where they refocus, put this think behind them, and get back to do what they've been doing all season.... competing and winning.

And I certainly hope BIG MOUTH Phillips learns from this too. Think it. Just don't publicize it. Use your head man!

GAC- Would the sweep have been better for the Reds if Phillips hadn't said anything? As far as "firing" up the opponent, if the Reds had won two out of three or swept the Cards, would his comments and the fight have galvanized the Reds? Probably not, but you'd be hearing a lot of that I'm sure.

If what Phillips said was the right thing or the wrong thing, that's independent of the games themselves. If the Cardinals were "woken up" by the Reds pointing out that they are whiners, then are they as likely to fall back asleep once they're playing the Astros or Brewers who give them proper respect?

If Phillips comments can be blamed for anything, it's getting the Reds heads out of the game. Especially after the near fight, everyone was so keyed up that they didn't do what got them there. Much like Chad OchoCinco and (I assume TO this year) the good news is that Phillips will take all the blame for the series from the media and most fans, while guys like Scott Rolen and Johnny Gomes, and Leake Cueto and Arroyo will not hear one word about their performance. If anything that helps the team perform looser as they go forward I would assume.

_Sir_Charles_
08-12-2010, 09:42 AM
Having a hard time buying that Molina is a "mature" player in all of this. Post game comments. Kicking the bat tap. And then, icing on the cake, mocking BPhil's homerun trot?

Dude is a manchild. "If you say bad stuff about me, don't say hi to me."

Sorry... not buying the Molina mature card.

I think you misunderstood. I agree that the homerun trot & post game comments were immature. I was ONLY referring to his immediate reaction to the shin-guard tap.

_Sir_Charles_
08-12-2010, 09:46 AM
An objective viewer watching the video and knowing the media picked up on Phillips' comments from the night before could reasonably interpret the scenario as Phillips walking up to the plate with a chip on his shoulders posturing. Certainly a reasonable person would wonder why Phillips touched Molina with his bat. Did it hurt? no. But it certainly wasn't an accident and a reasonable person could interpret it as antagonistic.

Likewise a reasonable person could view Cueto from the angle over his right shoulder an conclude that Cueto was kicking with the intent of using his spikes as a weapon.

Does any of this erase past events? No. But I think one needs blinders on to argue that Phillips didn't instigate things by his comments the previous night and his intentional behavior to start the PA. Phillips was in essence smoking near gasoline. he may not have meant to cause an explosion but he certainly isn't blameless.

Did Molina have to react the way he did? Of course not. But a reasonable person might conclude his reaction was entirely predictable based upon the actions of Phillips.

I'm worried the Reds are going to take the brunt of the punishment and frankly, they don't have a margin of error big enough to withstand losing a couple of starters for significant time over this kind of silly BS.

Well said. The problem is, we don't currently have many "reasonable" people here right now. We have "emotional" people.

REDREAD
08-12-2010, 09:49 AM
And if the Cardinals don't complain about the baseballs and accuse Arroyo of cheating then Phillips doesn't make those comments and there's no brawl last night.

Ok.. at some point, don't you think the Reds should just laugh that off.. The Cardinals looked like idiots for whining about that.

On one hand, people on this thread are saying the Cards should overlook Phillips comments and the shin tap, but it's ok for the Reds to still hold a grudge about some comment made at Arroyo a long time ago??

Phillips set out to push people's buttons and get them mad. He succeeded. He was the instigator. If a Cardinal player trash talked us and then tapped our player with a bat twice, I'm sure 99% of the board would agree the Cardinal player was the instigator.

_Sir_Charles_
08-12-2010, 09:50 AM
And if the Cardinals don't complain about the baseballs and accuse Arroyo of cheating then Phillips doesn't make those comments and there's no brawl last night.

And if the Reds had disbanded years ago, there wouldn't be a brawl either. This sort of rationalization can go on forever.

We can't control the actions of the opposing team. But our team CAN control their own actions. Up to the point when Brandon spoke out, we had done exactly that. The Cards whined and complained...and we took the classy high road and just ignored it and played baseball. When you step down into the gutter to sling mud with the classless...you can't be surprised when you end up being seen as one of the classless.

Hoosier Red
08-12-2010, 09:56 AM
Ok.. at some point, don't you think the Reds should just laugh that off.. The Cardinals looked like idiots for whining about that.

On one hand, people on this thread are saying the Cards should overlook Phillips comments and the shin tap, but it's ok for the Reds to still hold a grudge about some comment made at Arroyo a long time ago??

Phillips set out to push people's buttons and get them mad. He succeeded. He was the instigator. If a Cardinal player trash talked us and then tapped our player with a bat twice, I'm sure 99% of the board would agree the Cardinal player was the instigator.

I've said all along that the Cardinals shouldn't have ignored his comments. Rather simply deal with it the way it's been dealt with for years, fastball to the ribs.

If they do that, I have no problem with their actions. If Phillips takes offense and charges the mound. It's on him. But essentially they responded two ways: 1)Larussa went to "speak" to Walt Jocketty 2)Molina stood up and jawed at Phillips.

Overall I think the fight did more harm to the Reds than the Cards, the Reds played as if on a sugar buzz for the last two games when they really needed to be even keeled. Maybe the Cardinals knew that. They certainly knew the longer any "controversy" dragged on, the longer they'd look good regardless of the results.

backbencher
08-12-2010, 11:21 AM
An objective viewer watching the video and knowing the media picked up on Phillips' comments from the night before could reasonably interpret the scenario as Phillips walking up to the plate with a chip on his shoulders posturing. Certainly a reasonable person would wonder why Phillips touched Molina with his bat. Did it hurt? no. But it certainly wasn't an accident and a reasonable person could interpret it as antagonistic.

. . .

Does any of this erase past events? No. But I think one needs blinders on to argue that Phillips didn't instigate things by his comments the previous night and his intentional behavior to start the PA. Phillips was in essence smoking near gasoline. he may not have meant to cause an explosion but he certainly isn't blameless.

Did Molina have to react the way he did? Of course not. But a reasonable person might conclude his reaction was entirely predictable based upon the actions of Phillips.


An "objective viewer" would think that about Phillips only if the objective viewer ignored the fact that Phillips did the same bat tap thing every game. It CLEARLY was not instigatory, but instead part of one of baseball's stupid rituals. Phillips even ignored Molina when Molina shoved away the bat, and he walked away, without incident, to do his practice swing.

At the same time, it is plain as day that Molina knew that he could get in Phillips' head and was going to provoke Phillips until he did. Molina was expecting the bat-tap, and he pushed it away. No response. So Molina stood up, waited for Phillips to finish his swing, and then got in his grill. Absolutely, 100%, no-doubt intentional, premeditated actions by Molina.

In terms of suspensions, Phillips (unless he used "magic words" later on) has got to be in the clear. The only things he did were trash-talk in the press, which is allowed, and his does-it-every-game bat tap, which apparently is allowed. I think it is stupid, but suspending him for it would be like suspending Casey for adjusting his batting gloves every damn pitch.

Molina, on the other hand, intentionally provoked a fight on the field. He didn't throw punches or do anything other than yap, so any suspension would be symbolic. One game, with the knowledge that Molina could appeal it to make sure that it happened on a day game after a night game.

Now, the question of who should be suspended is entirely different from who made the better baseball/leadership play. Phillips's comments and bat-tap were thoughtless, and his inability to show poise in the face of Molina's provocation ultimately is going to cost his team. That's not a rules problem, that is a leadership problem. Molina's provocation, meanwhile, was brilliant. It was well-planned, it was carefully measured, it was meaningful, and -- above all -- it was effective. He used Phillips's emotional immaturity against not only Phillips, but the whole Red team. If he were a Red, I would be applauding him.

Cueto has to be suspended. It's unfortunate, as he was not an instigator and, to put it mildly, when a mob has pushed you off the ground and into a position where your feet are viable weapons, well, you have to be more than a little bit afraid for your own safey. Cueto's a small dude, and that had to be alarming. Still, aggressive kicks with spikes = the longest suspension of them all.

And if I could add one comment to the end, it would be to hope that the "hit Carpenter in the earhole" commentary on this board, and in the Reds fanbase, would stop. It was ill-thought to begin with and, as we are going to see with Phillips's of-the-same-kind comments to the paper, it-feels-good-now emotionality has a funny way of coming back to haunt you.

When you sow the wind, . . . .

jojo
08-12-2010, 11:29 AM
An "objective viewer" would think that about Phillips only if the objective viewer ignored the fact that Phillips did the same bat tap thing every game.

There is no way the Phillips was oblivious to the bad blood his comments caused.... he knew exactly what he was doing with the tap. He just didn't get into Molina's head like he thought he would...

backbencher
08-12-2010, 11:43 AM
There is no way the Phillips was oblivious to the bad blood his comments caused.... he knew exactly what he was doing with the tap. He just didn't get into Molina's head like he thought he would...

I have yet to see evidence that Phillips pre-plans anything, so I find your whole theory a bit suspect for that reason alone.

But look: Molina intentionally tried to provoke Phillips with the bat-whack. Phillips completely ignored it -- turned his back and continued his stupid ritual. Phillips's comments made the whole event possible, and he was stupid for making them, and, from a Reds' perspective, he is without question the one to "blame" as he had three inflection points (comments, bat-tap, going jaw-to-jaw) where different actions on his part could have kept Cueto off of the suspended list. He used poor judgment. But he clearly did not intend to pick a fight.

HokieRed
08-12-2010, 11:44 AM
There is no way the Phillips was oblivious to the bad blood his comments caused.... he knew exactly what he was doing with the tap. He just didn't get into Molina's head like he thought he would...

Exactly. Molina fought back and Phillips hadn't anticipated that. I say the Reds should just get over it. They got beat by a team that still has every claim to consider itself superior. There's only one way to change that and it's not by talk or fists, and it's Dusty's job, above all, to communicate that to them--which, by the way, I think he will do and do successfully (which is not to say we'll win the pennant).

Razor Shines
08-12-2010, 11:45 AM
An "objective viewer" would think that about Phillips only if the objective viewer ignored the fact that Phillips did the same bat tap thing every game. It CLEARLY was not instigatory, but instead part of one of baseball's stupid rituals. Phillips even ignored Molina when Molina shoved away the bat, and he walked away, without incident, to do his practice swing.

At the same time, it is plain as day that Molina knew that he could get in Phillips' head and was going to provoke Phillips until he did. Molina was expecting the bat-tap, and he pushed it away. No response. So Molina stood up, waited for Phillips to finish his swing, and then got in his grill. Absolutely, 100%, no-doubt intentional, premeditated actions by Molina.

. . . .

They both knew what they were doing. I have no doubt Molina was waiting for his bat tap, but I also have no doubt that Phillips was intentionally "rattling his cage" with the tap.

mdccclxix
08-12-2010, 11:47 AM
As for Larue's face: it looks fine!

yet this from all those in St. Louis:


Several Cardinals said privately that Cueto should receive more than the five-game suspension typically given starting pitchers. Carpenter said that if one of Cueto's kicks had been an inch closer to LaRue's eye the Cardinals catcher could have been blinded.

Oh the drama!

Larue has a concussion? That's not easy to fake or anything.

I think Larue needs a suspension as well, he was attacking Cueto who was pinned against the fence. If Cueto doesn't land one on his head, and if Gomes isn't holding Larue back, we may have had Ondrusek out there in the first damn inning.

Of course all this started when Priss wasn't happy until there were actual fists thrown. The fight was over, like Baker said.

TheNext44
08-12-2010, 11:48 AM
There is no way the Phillips was oblivious to the bad blood his comments caused.... he knew exactly what he was doing with the tap. He just didn't get into Molina's head like he thought he would...

What part of "HE DOES IT EVERY TIME" do you not understand.

That tap is done by many players all the time, as a friendly jesture to start the AB. The batter taps the catcher and the ump's shin guards as if to say "Hey." to start the AB. I have seen it done in college games, and even my girlfriend's softball games (she does it every time too)

There is absolutely no way that Phillips should have expected Molina's reaction of swiping away the bat. In fact, it is more likely that not tapping Molina would have gotten a similar reaction from Molina, something like "Why no tap? Are you too good to say Hey now?"

Molina's swiping away the bat was the first aggressive move made in the fight. You can argue, and I would agree with you, that Phillip's statements caused Molina to want to pick a fight, but you can't argue that the tap had anything to do with it. Molina wanted to fight, and nothing Phillips did would have stopped him.

Reds Fanatic
08-12-2010, 11:55 AM
Several Cardinals said privately that Cueto should receive more than the five-game suspension typically given starting pitchers. Carpenter said that if one of Cueto's kicks had been an inch closer to LaRue's eye the Cardinals catcher could have been blinded.

Unbelievable. If you would listen to the Cardinals side only you would swear Cueto was purposely kicking specific Cardinals trying to cause injuries. Cueto was basically trying to get the pile away from him. It is unfortunate anyone got kicked but from the way that pile was on top of him it could just as easily been a Reds player that ended up getting kicked.

BrooklynRedz
08-12-2010, 12:07 PM
Seven-game suspension for Cueto. Two-game suspensions for Baker and La Russa.

Hoosier Red
08-12-2010, 12:15 PM
Brooklyn, are those the actual numbers? IIRC you have some inside info at major league baseball

RBA
08-12-2010, 12:15 PM
15-20 people piling on you can crush you to death. How much force is that? 15x200 = 3000 lbs. Have any of you had 3000 pounds on top of you? Of course it's not as simple as that. I don't blame anyone for trying every trick in the book to get out of that situation.

backbencher
08-12-2010, 12:18 PM
Suspensions lighter than I expected.

I wonder if we ever will find out what Carpenter said.

BrooklynRedz
08-12-2010, 12:19 PM
Brooklyn, are those the actual numbers? IIRC you have some inside info at major league baseball

Yeah, those are accurate. Plus fines of undisclosed amounts to the following: Phillips, Springer, Molina and Carpenter.

Disappointing that Molina/Carpenter face no suspension considering their actions.

westofyou
08-12-2010, 12:22 PM
Suspensions lighter than I expected.

I wonder if we ever will find out what Carpenter said.

Starts with a M and ends with an R

Hoosier Red
08-12-2010, 12:25 PM
Yeah, those are accurate. Plus fines of undisclosed amounts to the following: Phillips, Springer, Molina and Carpenter.

Disappointing that Molina/Carpenter face no suspension considering their actions.

Springer? What did he do?

I expected Johnny's to be more than 5 less than 10. This means he misses a start and the team has to juggle the rotation. Seems like a fair punishment.

I think Carpenter should have had a suspension.

RichRed
08-12-2010, 12:55 PM
Starts with a M and ends with an R

...and isn't "manager."

mdccclxix
08-12-2010, 01:04 PM
The Cards whined the loudest after the game. That's what you get. Now we just have to kick their ass for the Central crown.

RBA
08-12-2010, 01:06 PM
...and isn't "manager."

"Mister" Baker?

RBA
08-12-2010, 01:07 PM
I see. I guess it was two words.

_Sir_Charles_
08-12-2010, 01:11 PM
Springer? What did he do?

I expected Johnny's to be more than 5 less than 10. This means he misses a start and the team has to juggle the rotation. Seems like a fair punishment.

I think Carpenter should have had a suspension.

Springer just got pointed out to me. He's on the DL....automatic fine if you enter the melee.

jojo
08-12-2010, 01:14 PM
What part of "HE DOES IT EVERY TIME" do you not understand.

The part where context is considered.... clearly the Cards had stewed all day after being asked for quotes the night before... There is no way the Reds clubhouse didn't know about it either and probably were talking themselves into a frenzy too...

It's just not very likely that Phillips tapped Molina out of habit without any thought about it at all.

smith288
08-12-2010, 01:26 PM
Phillips probably thought it might antagonize or it might not. He does it every game as a sort of sportsmanship thing to do like saying "Hey, lets have a good game" and Molina did what any normal man would do after being called a cry baby %#$#... took offense.

Carpenter took it to another level that wasn't necessary.

Brutus
08-12-2010, 01:34 PM
The part where context is considered.... clearly the Cards had stewed all day after being asked for quotes the night before... There is no way the Reds clubhouse didn't know about it either and probably were talking themselves into a frenzy too...

It's just not very likely that Phillips tapped Molina out of habit without any thought about it at all.

I'm not seeing why he should change his routine because of what he said. Even if he thought about it, so what? I doubt very seriously he expected Molina to act so drastic to it. I certainly didn't expect that. I thought Phillips might get drilled by a pitch, but I didn't think Molina would do anything.

Why should he change his routine? If it's well established he does it everytime, what is the big deal? You're making something bigger than it is. What he said was on par with the crap the Cardinals have been saying for the last few years. And nothing physically has happened to this point. So I don't see why we should hold Phillips to any different a standard.

MattyHo4Life
08-12-2010, 01:35 PM
Unbelievable. If you would listen to the Cardinals side only you would swear Cueto was purposely kicking specific Cardinals trying to cause injuries. Cueto was basically trying to get the pile away from him. It is unfortunate anyone got kicked but from the way that pile was on top of him it could just as easily been a Reds player that ended up getting kicked.

Carpenter had his back against the wall as well with Cueto, but he didn't kick anybody.

nate
08-12-2010, 01:43 PM
Carpenter had his back against the wall as well with Cueto, but he didn't kick anybody.

He wasn't pushed off balance in quite the same way as Cueto either.

Reds Fanatic
08-12-2010, 01:45 PM
Carpenter had his back against the wall as well with Cueto, but he didn't kick anybody.

Carpenter was pinned against the wall in a completely different position than Cueto. I am defending what Cueto did but I also don't think he was intentionally trying to hurt anyone. He got in a bad position and started kicking which was wrong and he should have been suspended.

But just once I would like a Cardinal fan to at least acknowlege without Carpenter no one is near that wall.

jojo
08-12-2010, 01:47 PM
I'm not seeing why he should change his routine because of what he said. Even if he thought about it, so what? I doubt very seriously he expected Molina to act so drastic to it. I certainly didn't expect that. I thought Phillips might get drilled by a pitch, but I didn't think Molina would do anything.

Why should he change his routine? If it's well established he does it everytime, what is the big deal? You're making something bigger than it is. What he said was on par with the crap the Cardinals have been saying for the last few years. And nothing physically has happened to this point. So I don't see why we should hold Phillips to any different a standard.

Where's the double standard?

MattyHo4Life
08-12-2010, 01:49 PM
I'm not seeing why he should change his routine because of what he said. Even if he thought about it, so what? I doubt very seriously he expected Molina to act so drastic to it.

Phillips did his little "hello tap" to Molina like he does every at bat... that we agree on. Now if you make comments about a man and his teammates like Phillips did, do you say "hi" to him like nothing happened the next day? Yadi kicked his bat away because he didn't want him touching him after making those comments. Sure, Phillips did it before, but he never said that he hated the Cardinals before. After Yadi kicks his bat away... Phillips does it again... how is that not trying to stir something up? Yadi was upset with the comments he made, but he was ready to start the game and focus on the game. I doubt Yadi thought Phillips would do the little "hello tap" after making those comments, and really didn't think he would do it a second time after being kicked away the first time. Yadi didn't want Phillips touching him after making those comments, so after it happened a second time, he told him about it. You can say it's because I'm a Cards fan, but if someone says he hates me, then I don't want him saying "hi" to me or touching me the next day. If that's being a crybaby, then so be it.

Brutus
08-12-2010, 01:54 PM
Phillips did his little "hello tap" to Molina like he does every at bat... that we agree on. Now if you make comments about a man and his teammates like Phillips did, do you say "hi" to him like nothing happened the next day? Yadi kicked his bat away because he didn't want him touching him after making those comments. Sure, Phillips did it before, but he never said that he hated the Cardinals before. After Yadi kicks his bat away... Phillips does it again... how is that not trying to stir something up? Yadi was upset with the comments he made, but he was ready to start the game and focus on the game. I doubt Yadi thought Phillips would do the little "hello tap" after making those comments, and really didn't think he would do it a second time after being kicked away the first time. Yadi didn't want Phillips touching him after making those comments, so after it happened a second time, he told him about it. You can say it's because I'm a Cards fan, but if someone says he hates me, then I don't want him saying "hi" to me or touching me the next day. If that's being a crybaby, then so be it.

If Phillips does something in his normal routine, indicating he's not carrying over his comments into the game, and Molina takes exception to it by instigating a physical confrontation... that's on him not Phillips.

Razor Shines
08-12-2010, 01:54 PM
I'm not seeing why he should change his routine because of what he said. Even if he thought about it, so what? I doubt very seriously he expected Molina to act so drastic to it. I certainly didn't expect that. I thought Phillips might get drilled by a pitch, but I didn't think Molina would do anything.

Why should he change his routine? If it's well established he does it everytime, what is the big deal? You're making something bigger than it is. What he said was on par with the crap the Cardinals have been saying for the last few years. And nothing physically has happened to this point. So I don't see why we should hold Phillips to any different a standard.

It's just like basketball players fist bumping before tip off. Yeah, they always do it, but if a guy from one team had called the entire other team b*****s less than 24 hours before tip off, I bet at least one of the guys would slap his hand away if he tried to fist bump them.

MattyHo4Life
08-12-2010, 01:54 PM
Carpenter was pinned against the wall in a completely different position than Cueto. I am defending what Cueto did but I also don't think he was intentionally trying to hurt anyone. He got in a bad position and started kicking which was wrong and he should have been suspended.

But just once I would like a Cardinal fan to at least acknowlege without Carpenter no one is near that wall.

Well..I'm not defending Carpenter either. I don't think I've really defended him at all over this. He has a hot head, and he should have kept his mouth shut. I will defend Yadi though... I don't think he did anything wrong.

Always Red
08-12-2010, 01:56 PM
Phillips did his little "hello tap" to Molina like he does every at bat... that we agree on. Now if you make comments about a man and his teammates like Phillips did, do you say "hi" to him like nothing happened the next day? Yadi kicked his bat away because he didn't want him touching him after making those comments. Sure, Phillips did it before, but he never said that he hated the Cardinals before. After Yadi kicks his bat away... Phillips does it again... how is that not trying to stir something up? Yadi was upset with the comments he made, but he was ready to start the game and focus on the game. I doubt Yadi thought Phillips would do the little "hello tap" after making those comments, and really didn't think he would do it a second time after being kicked away the first time. Yadi didn't want Phillips touching him after making those comments, so after it happened a second time, he told him about it. You can say it's because I'm a Cards fan, but if someone says he hates me, then I don't want him saying "hi" to me or touching me the next day. If that's being a crybaby, then so be it.

That is the key, for those who think Phillips is blameless.

He did it twice. The replay shows it clearly. He tapped Molina, and Molina kicked his bat away, then BP turned, took a warm up swing and then reached out and tapped his shin guard again.

He provoked Molina.

As for me, I'd have done the same thing Molina did, if I had been tapped not once, (as is Phillips custom) but twice.

Brutus
08-12-2010, 01:58 PM
It's just like basketball players fist bumping before tip off. Yeah, they always do it, but if a guy from one team had called the entire other team b*****s less than 24 hours before tip off, I bet at least one of the guys would slap his hand away if he tried to fist bump them.

The Reds have been called cheaters, among other things, by the Cardinals several times and I didn't see the Reds do anything out of the ordinary. The fact the Cardinals have an inability to be able to take what they dish out seems like their own character flaw.

Razor Shines
08-12-2010, 02:03 PM
The Reds have been called cheaters, among other things, by the Cardinals several times and I didn't see the Reds do anything out of the ordinary. The fact the Cardinals have an inability to be able to take what they dish out seems like their own character flaw.

Maybe, but I never was trying to hold up Molina as a standard of maturity, I'm just saying Brandon knew what he was doing.

Brutus
08-12-2010, 02:07 PM
Maybe, but I never was trying to hold up Molina as a standard of maturity, I'm just saying Brandon knew what he was doing.

It's certainly possible he did. And if that's the case, he's to share in this whole thing.

For me, though, I have no problem with what he did because he exposed the Cardinals for what they really are. Clearly they have proven to be hypocrites because they don't mind calling out everyone else in baseball, but when they get called on their whining and complaining, they start acting like imbeciles.

nate
08-12-2010, 02:07 PM
Phillips did his little "hello tap" to Molina like he does every at bat... that we agree on. Now if you make comments about a man and his teammates like Phillips did, do you say "hi" to him like nothing happened the next day?

A grownup, civilized, adult man would just ignore it and proceed to go about his business.


Yadi kicked his bat away because he didn't want him touching him after making those comments. Sure, Phillips did it before, but he never said that he hated the Cardinals before. After Yadi kicks his bat away... Phillips does it again... how is that not trying to stir something up? Yadi was upset with the comments he made, but he was ready to start the game and focus on the game. I doubt Yadi thought Phillips would do the little "hello tap" after making those comments, and really didn't think he would do it a second time after being kicked away the first time. Yadi didn't want Phillips touching him after making those comments, so after it happened a second time, he told him about it. You can say it's because I'm a Cards fan, but if someone says he hates me, then I don't want him saying "hi" to me or touching me the next day. If that's being a crybaby, then so be it.

It's being immature.

Something BP, Molina, et al. showed with aplomb.

jojo
08-12-2010, 02:08 PM
That is the key, for those who think Phillips is blameless.

He did it twice. The replay shows it clearly. He tapped Molina, and Molina kicked his bat away, then BP turned, took a warm up swing and then reached out and tapped his shin guard again.

He provoked Molina.

As for me, I'd have done the same thing Molina did, if I had been tapped not once, (as is Phillips custom) but twice.

Right.

kaldaniels
08-12-2010, 02:08 PM
Final time...what did Carp say? Fay says it was a nasty as it gets in 2 words...was it the good old F bomb...cause that shouldn't have triggered such an outburst from all involved.

Brutus
08-12-2010, 02:10 PM
Final time...what did Carp say? Fay says it was a nasty as it gets in 2 words...was it the good old F bomb...cause that shouldn't have triggered such an outburst from all involved.

I'm surmising it was the mother of all F-bombs, if you catch my drift. Though at first I sensed the report as hinting at racial undertones, which obviously would be a more sensitive matter.

nate
08-12-2010, 02:11 PM
Final time...what did Carp say? Fay says it was a nasty as it gets in 2 words...was it the good old F bomb...cause that shouldn't have triggered such an outburst from all involved.

I'm not sure but I think it might've been a coarse way to describe Oedipus.

And I'll leave it at that.

edabbs44
08-12-2010, 02:19 PM
I'm surmising it was the mother of all F-bombs, if you catch my drift. Though at first I sensed the report as hinting at racial undertones, which obviously would be a more sensitive matter.

If it was the mother of all f-bombs, then these guys need to get thicker skin.

Big Klu
08-12-2010, 03:14 PM
Phillips probably thought it might antagonize or it might not. He does it every game as a sort of sportsmanship thing to do like saying "Hey, lets have a good game" and Molina did what any normal man would do after being called a cry baby %#$#... took offense.

Carpenter took it to another level that wasn't necessary.

My buddies and I were at the game Tuesday night. I told one of them that the fight reminded me of the OK Corral scene in Tombstone. Sam Elliott is trying to calm everyone and defuse the situation, then just when it seems that everything might settle down peacefully, Val Kilmer winks at Thomas Haden Church, setting the match to the powderkeg. Kurt Russell says "Oh, hell", and the firefight is on.

http://www.earclops.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/tombstone.jpg

REDREAD
08-12-2010, 03:59 PM
There is no way the Phillips was oblivious to the bad blood his comments caused.... he knew exactly what he was doing with the tap. He just didn't get into Molina's head like he thought he would...

Yep.. Personally, I don't think it's appropriate for Phillips to do the "bat tap" every time he comes to bat.
I'm sure if Molinda touched every ballplayer that came to hit against his team for good luck or as a weird way to say hi, the Reds fans would have a diff point of view.

I think we are arguing a lost cause though.. Too many fans blinded by fandom though to realize that Phillips doing the tap twice was bound to incite anger from Molinda under the circumstances.. The whole world shouldn't be expected to make allowances for Phillip's dumb quirk of tapping people.

BrooklynRedz
08-12-2010, 04:23 PM
Yep.. Personally, I don't think it's appropriate for Phillips to do the "bat tap" every time he comes to bat.
I'm sure if Molinda touched every ballplayer that came to hit against his team for good luck or as a weird way to say hi, the Reds fans would have a diff point of view.

I think we are arguing a lost cause though.. Too many fans blinded by fandom though to realize that Phillips doing the tap twice was bound to incite anger from Molinda under the circumstances.. The whole world shouldn't be expected to make allowances for Phillip's dumb quirk of tapping people.

He only does the 'bat tap' before his first at bat of the game.

smith288
08-13-2010, 12:48 AM
He only does the 'bat tap' before his first at bat of the game.

Correct. Like a team (reds) tap to the other team and umps as a way to say "let's have a good game"

jojo
08-13-2010, 05:47 AM
Correct. Like a team (reds) tap to the other team and umps as a way to say "let's have a good game"

So if he does it twice, it means he really, really wishes you a good game? :cool:

Always Red
08-13-2010, 07:01 AM
So if he does it twice, it means he really, really wishes you a good game? :cool:

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest."

jojo
08-13-2010, 08:23 AM
"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest."

That's a perfect summation of this thread but how does it speak to the devout Reds fans who entertain the notion that players on their team aren't always blameless?

Always Red
08-13-2010, 08:59 AM
That's a perfect summation of this thread but how does it speak to the devout Reds fans who entertain the notion that players on their team aren't always blameless?

well, obviously Paul Simon doesn't cover all situations with that one verse. :cool:

Those with the ability (experience, worldview....maturity? woy would say trips around the sun) to see things from a viewpoint other than their own, can see that there is plenty of blame to go around in this incident.

I heard Joe Morgan today on the radio say that he thinks BP has learned his lesson from this: it's ok to think whatever you want, but many things need to be kept to yourself.

I'm a devout Reds fan, and I see plenty of fault on both sides. The one guy who comes out of this looking better than anyone else is Scott Rolen, IMO. Peacemaker, yet willing to stand up for his teammates and manager- a guy that I would want in the foxhole with me when the chips are down and the world is falling apart.

nate
08-13-2010, 09:10 AM
The one guy who comes out of this looking better than anyone else is Scott Rolen, IMO. Peacemaker, yet willing to stand up for his teammates and manager- a guy that I would want in the foxhole with me when the chips are down and the world is falling apart.

Not me. I'd want to be with the spaceship captain.

:cool:

Roy Tucker
08-13-2010, 12:24 PM
While we're talking about baseball fights....

http://deadspin.com/5611309/remembering-the-greatest-basebrawl-of-all-time

(it is Deadspin so there is some language)

smith288
08-13-2010, 12:35 PM
So if he does it twice, it means he really, really wishes you a good game? :cool:

Im not defending a second tap after Molina kicked it away. Molina shouldnt have kicked it if he wanted to "rise above" Brandons words. They all acted like immature kids.

westofyou
08-13-2010, 01:06 PM
While we're talking about baseball fights....

http://deadspin.com/5611309/remembering-the-greatest-basebrawl-of-all-time

(it is Deadspin so there is some language)

Or this famous, classy Reds moment


http://baseballminutia.com/blog/2006/05/page/2/



“We had picked up Billy Martin in the off season and I loved him. He had the Napoleon complex so many little guys have and he always seemed to be in a fight. Someone always wanted to knock him down and he’d always retaliate.”

Jim O’Toole

May 15th – Phillies vs. Reds. Reds pitcher Raul Sanchez hits three Phillie batters in a row, the third being 6’9” Gene Conley. In a fit of rage rookie Phillie manager Gene Mauch rushes Sanchez on the mound starting a fight between the two teams. In a “peacekeeper” role Martin gets popped in the face by Conley.

“I was holding back Mauch and Conley belted me. But I got Conley too. I had to jump up to hit him. Fighting him is like fighting a two story building.”

Billy Martin.

For his trouble Martin hurt his hand and missed two weeks.

Mauch was fined $100 by NL President Warren Giles.

Martins hitting mojo was never fully charged and as the decade matured his bat wilted. A contact hitter with both low strikeouts and walk totals Martins stay in Cincinnati was highlighted by his last year with a .300 plus on base percentage.

August 5th – The one-year anniversary of Martin getting beaned in the face as a Cleveland Indian by Senator pitcher Tex Clevenger’s fastball, Martin had seven facial bones broken, but declared it an accident and forgave Clevenger for the incident. On the anniversary the Reds are in Chicago playing the Cubs and the Senators are also in town to take on the White Sox in the evening.

Several of the Senator players visited the Reds clubhouse prior to the contest and engaged Billy Martin in a conversation, Billy felt that he was being crowded in the National League (The Dodgers in retaliation for a Roger Craig collision had beaned Vada Pinson three times since the incident causing the Reds to be somewhat on edge.) According Senator pitcher Hal Woodeshick Martin was “fed up with getting knocked on his ass every time up.” And then he swore, “Someone’s going to pay.”

On the mound that day for the Cubs was 22-year-old Jim Brewer, a rookie making his fourth start of his career. After walking Martin to lead off the game Brewer gave up 3 hits and allowed 2 runs. In the second inning he got two quick outs and Martin stepped to the plate. The first pitch was high and tight and Martin acted as if he had been struck in the helmet and took off for first, the ruse didn’t take and he was ordered back into the box. Brewer threw the 1-0 pitch and Martin took a half swing and his bat skittered out towards the mound landing ten feet to the right of the rubber.

Martin said it “Slipped” from there he walked out to the mound to retrieve his bat. In his hearing with Warren Giles he claimed that Brewer was “mouthing off and that if he had kept his mouth shut nothing would have happened. Brewer admitted he asked if Martin wanted to fight. Martin’s reply was “No, I’m out here to get my bat, kid.”


It was then that Martin attacked Brewer with a surprise right, fracturing his cheekbone and orbital, starting a general ruckus that featured an angry Brewer stalking the field with a broken bat in his hand.In the aftermath it was obvious the culture of the game was going to point to the pitcher vs. the hitter aspect of this fight. The Sporting News ran stories about Martins 1959 beaning, and even printed a letter to the editor about “The Carl May’s Pitch” from former Major Leaguer Dummy Hoy. The general consensus was that the batter was at the mercy of the headhunters.

Martin gave his final word on the matter, “Nobody, and I mean nobody is going to throw at my head, they can hit me anyplace else, but not in the head.”