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fearofpopvol1
08-10-2010, 08:29 PM
Baker and La Russa ejected.

Molina provoked it by talking trash when Phillips stepped in the box. Molina should have been ejected IMO.

Carpenter and Rolen would have fought if it hadn't been for folks breaking it up. Carpenter is lucky he didn't get popped in the head as he was pushed up against the wall.

WVRed
08-10-2010, 08:33 PM
Ok, why was Baker and LaRussa ejected, but Molina (and to a lesser extent Phillips, Carpenter, and Rolen) were allowed to stay in?

Makes no sense. Molina should have been gone for sure.

The Operator
08-10-2010, 08:34 PM
Yea, those Cardinals are a classy bunch.

Win and lose the right way, ehh Tony Doubleday?

Screw that team and everything to do with 'em.

Mario-Rijo
08-10-2010, 08:34 PM
Cueto was getting crushed against the wall/net and was kicking Carpenter in the back at one point, cleats and all. All kinds of chaos erupted man! Jason LaRue was the one that get it started up again, talking trash to Dusty.

11larkin11
08-10-2010, 08:36 PM
My guesses: Molina, Carpenter suspended (Carp will miss one start)
Rolen, Rhodes, Phillips, Cueto suspended (Cueto will miss one)

Phillips and Molina the most.

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2010, 08:37 PM
Yadier Molina = Thug.

I hate the Cardinals. Hate them. Always have, always will.

Mario-Rijo
08-10-2010, 08:38 PM
My guesses: Molina, Carpenter suspended (Carp will miss one start)
Rolen, Rhodes, Phillips, Cueto suspended (Cueto will miss one)

Phillips and Molina the most.

I'd take Rhodes off that list I watched it a couple of times in slow mo and didn't notice him doing anything other than trying to break it up. But I'd add LaRue to the list he was jawing at Dusty and got it going again after the initial staredown by teams. That sparked Carpenter to join the fray & then others to go after him or try to move him away and shut him up which resulted in a bunch of people getting after it.

11larkin11
08-10-2010, 08:40 PM
I'd take Rhodes off that list I watched it a couple of times in slow mo and didn't notice him doing anything other than trying to break it up. But I'd add LaRue to the list he was jawing at Dusty and got it going again after the initial staredown by teams.

Gotcha. Just going by watching it once and listening to Welsh.

via Jamie Ramsey's Twitter: It appeared this began when Brandon attempted his at-bat ritual of touching the ump and the catcher with his bat. Molina kicked his bat.

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2010, 08:44 PM
Did anyone see Molina mock Phillips' home run trot as he rounded the bases? Will someone please drill him?

Mario-Rijo
08-10-2010, 08:46 PM
Did anyone see Molina mock Phillips' home run trot as he rounded the bases? Will someone please drill him?

Geez, just couldn't let it go could they! :rolleyes:

jojo
08-10-2010, 08:47 PM
Baker and La Russa ejected.

Molina provoked it by talking trash when Phillips stepped in the box. Molina should have been ejected IMO.

Carpenter and Rolen would have fought if it hadn't been for folks breaking it up. Carpenter is lucky he didn't get popped in the head as he was pushed up against the wall.

I wonder if any of this would've happened if Phillips would've stayed classy?

Just wondering....

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2010, 08:48 PM
I wonder if any of this would've happened if Phillips would've stayed classy?

Just wondering....

Yeah, the Cardinals did nothing wrong. I guess it's OK for Felipe Lopez and Colby Rasmus to run their mouth but Phillips can't.

Mario-Rijo
08-10-2010, 08:49 PM
I wonder if any of this would've happened if Phillips would've stayed classy?

Just wondering....

No, but you could say the same thing about the Cards too, right?

jojo
08-10-2010, 08:51 PM
Yeah, the Cardinals did nothing wrong. I guess it's OK for Felipe Lopez and Colby Rasmus to run their mouth but Phillips can't.

Was that really my argument?

jojo
08-10-2010, 08:52 PM
No, but you could say the same thing about the Cards too, right?

I hate the whole trash talking BS. Play good baseball. There is NO good guy in this embarrassing sideshow. The country is watching..... this is a major defeat in the "classy war".

Reds Fanatic
08-10-2010, 08:52 PM
It will be interesting to see who gets fined/suspended from that because Molina started it but really the whole thing was pretty much calmed down until Carpenter really was the one who caused that to blow up.

Mario-Rijo
08-10-2010, 08:53 PM
I hate the whole trash talking BS. Play good baseball. There is NO good guy in this embarrassing sideshow.

Then why not mention ALL the bad guys. Like jabbing the bear with a stick do we?

Cyclone792
08-10-2010, 08:54 PM
It will be interesting to see who gets fined/suspended from that because Molina started it but really the whole thing was pretty much calmed down until Carpenter really was the one who caused that to blow up.

Carpenter said some magic words to Dusty, and Rolen went after him for it. We may likely never know what Carpenter called Dusty, but I bet it had to be have been pretty nasty for Rolen to react the way he did.

I'm proud of the boys tonight, and Dusty Baker gained a whole lot of respect from me for teeing off on La Russa like he did.

11larkin11
08-10-2010, 08:54 PM
I like Welsh's take. Its like a 4th grade skirmish. Talk is talk, but to actually take action Yadi? Theres a difference between talking trash, and trying to start a brawl.

jojo
08-10-2010, 08:55 PM
Then why not mention ALL the bad guys. Like jabbing the bear with a stick do we?

Where did "there is NO good guy in this embarrassing sideshow" conspicuously leave anyone out? Jabbing a bear or calling a spade a spade?

fearofpopvol1
08-10-2010, 08:56 PM
I don't understand...what did Cueto do? I saw him getting pushed...but did he provoke anything?

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2010, 08:57 PM
Carpenter said some magic words to Dusty, and Rolen went after him for it. We may likely never know what Carpenter called Dusty, but I bet it had to be have been pretty nasty for Rolen to react the way he did.

I'm proud of the boys tonight, and Dusty Baker gained a whole lot of respect from me for teeing off on La Russa like he did.

Agreed. I gained a ton of respect for Dusty Baker tonight. Scott Rolen, well, I've always loved that dude but it reached a whole new level tonight. That guy is awesome.

Reds Fanatic
08-10-2010, 08:58 PM
I don't understand...what did Cueto do? I saw him getting pushed...but did he provoke anything?

No I think he just got in a really bad spot when that ended up against the fence he was basically being pushed. Without the screen he would probably been in the seats the way he was being pushed.

Brutus
08-10-2010, 08:58 PM
I hate the whole trash talking BS. Play good baseball. There is NO good guy in this embarrassing sideshow. The country is watching..... this is a major defeat in the "classy war".

Turning the other cheek doesn't do any good. The Cardinals have been the verbal instigators for a couple of years. It's about time someone called them on it.

TheNext44
08-10-2010, 08:59 PM
I hate the whole trash talking BS. Play good baseball. There is NO good guy in this embarrassing sideshow. The country is watching..... this is a major defeat in the "classy war".

I could give a mother freakin' flying fig about winning some son of a beach classy war. But that's just me. :D

guttle11
08-10-2010, 08:59 PM
Stuff like that is just awesome. When you put a bunch of amped up competitive people together, it will spill over from time to time. It's basic human emotion. It's not a bad thing. They'll never admit it publicly, but the powers that be within baseball have to love it. Front page news all over the country tomorrow, no small feat for MLB in August.

Mario-Rijo
08-10-2010, 09:03 PM
Where did "there is NO good guy in this embarrassing sideshow" conspicuously leave anyone out? Jabbing a bear or calling a spade a spade?

If that is the way you really felt why not say it to begin with, why disinclude all other parties?

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2010, 09:05 PM
Here's the video:

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=10812129

Mario-Rijo
08-10-2010, 09:07 PM
No I think he just got in a really bad spot when that ended up against the fence he was basically being pushed. Without the screen he would probably been in the seats the way he was being pushed.

But he kicked the crap out of Carpenters back like a donkey trying to get out of it. Not once but like 3 times.

jojo
08-10-2010, 09:08 PM
If that is the way you really felt why not say it to begin with, why disinclude all other parties?

Because Phillips went out of his way and that's what is going to be the lead in on ESPN tonight...

vaticanplum
08-10-2010, 09:10 PM
Here's the video:

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=10812129

Thanks OBM!!

RED VAN HOT
08-10-2010, 09:11 PM
I tuned in late, so I didn't see it. My reaction to the accounts, however, is that I love it. After a decade of going quietly, it is good to have an intense rivalry.

Mario-Rijo
08-10-2010, 09:12 PM
Because Phillips went out of his way and that's what is going to be the lead in on ESPN tonight...

Maybe he went out of his way, or maybe he just got tired of holding his tongue on the matter. Either way it's not over because after everything was said and done Molina goes right back to being a horse's rear end again trying to imitate Brandon circling the bases, so now who went out of their way?

harangatang
08-10-2010, 09:12 PM
Is it safe to say the Reds have a true rival again?

Cyclone792
08-10-2010, 09:12 PM
Agreed. I gained a ton of respect for Dusty Baker tonight. Scott Rolen, well, I've always loved that dude but it reached a whole new level tonight. That guy is awesome.

I've been critical of Dusty for years for various things, and he does a whole of things that I don't agree with from a philosophical point of view. But the guy truly does love his players, and he'll go to war for his guys and back them every step of the way. I'm really glad to see that from Dusty on a night like tonight, and I'm sure all the guys in the clubhouse are thankful for it as well.

jojo
08-10-2010, 09:15 PM
Maybe he went out of his way, or maybe he just got tired of holding his tongue on the matter. Either way it's not over because after everything was said and done Molina goes right back to being a horse's rear end again trying to imitate Brandon circling the bases, so now who went out of their way?

We are talking about men right? If the cards' behavior is so despicable (which it is), why should we as fans rejoice in our guys sinking to their level...

Seriously, there is not a winner in this..

HeatherC1212
08-10-2010, 09:15 PM
Wow, that was total insanity! I love the Reds showing some fire but I wasn't expecting a benches clearing brawl tonight. :eek: I was actually in the kitchen finishing up the dishes when I heard the fight start and until I saw the initial replay, I didn't even know what happened! Molina should have kept his mouth shut (and IMO Brandon could have been the better man and let it go but it must have been something really bad to get him that riled up) and Carpenter should have stayed out of it too. It was calming down somewhat before he ran his mouth off and he must have said something pretty bad too which got Scott riled up. Those two managers don't care for each other either so it was bad all the way to the top. That was just insane all the way around and I guess we know what will be leading off Baseball Tonight and Sportscenter later on! :eek:

It sure looked to me like Cueto was doing part "get Carpenter out of here" kicking and part "OMG, I'm going to get hurt if everyone else doesn't get off me" kicking for self defense. Those poor people in the Diamond Club seats were probably a little freaked out by all the fighting right in front of them! :eek:

HeatherC1212
08-10-2010, 09:17 PM
Forgot to mention this: I saw Jonny Gomes RIGHT THERE in every single part of this fight tonight ready to stand behind his teammates. I liked seeing that and he didn't throw any pitches or anything but he was ready to if one of his guys got hit. I knew he'd be the one to have everyone's back although Rolen did a good job of that too. :thumbup:

No more fights though....please??! I'm more worried someone will get hurt than anything. :eek:

11larkin11
08-10-2010, 09:18 PM
Looks like the Cards got off easy:

Jamieblog: He got up and started shadowboxing and screaming RT @wight4256: @Jamieblog Was anyone monitoring The Loose Cannon during the brouhaha?

Mario-Rijo
08-10-2010, 09:19 PM
We are talking about men right? If the cards' behavior is so despicable (which it is), why should we as fans rejoice in our guys sinking to their level...

Seriously, there is not a winner in this..

Ah, bologna. Seriously a good fight every now and again is a good thing on or off the field.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-10-2010, 09:22 PM
I've been one of his harshest critics, but I'm officially down with a Dusty Baker contract extension right now.

Yep, I said it.

And to think I wanted Larussa to be the next Reds manager. Sad.

mth123
08-10-2010, 09:22 PM
We are talking about men right? If the cards' behavior is so despicable (which it is), why should we as fans rejoice in our guys sinking to their level...

Seriously, there is not a winner in this..

:thumbup:

jojo
08-10-2010, 09:23 PM
I'm worried about losing important guys....and for what?

Mario-Rijo
08-10-2010, 09:28 PM
I'm worried about losing important guys....and for what?

IMO...the inevitable.

TheNext44
08-10-2010, 09:29 PM
Personally, I think that this will mark the day that the Reds went on a big winning streak and separated themselves the rest of the Central.

WVRed
08-10-2010, 09:30 PM
Was mentioned in chat on the St Louis affiliate that Cueto kicked Jason LaRue in the face.

At first I thought it was LaRussa. Cueto would have moved up my list of favorite Reds players if that was true.

11larkin11
08-10-2010, 09:48 PM
Again, the Cards got lucky. Huge Reds fan and MMA fighter Rich Franklin is throwing out the first pitch tomorrow.

CTA513
08-10-2010, 09:51 PM
Again, the Cards got lucky. Huge Reds fan and MMA fighter Rich Franklin is throwing out the first pitch tomorrow.

Franklin could beat them up with his broken arm.

:cool:

Reds Fanatic
08-10-2010, 10:00 PM
This is how ESPN describes the beginning of the fight in their story. Gee you think they are biased. You would think Phillips started it tonight from this description:


Outspoken Brandon Phillips was in the middle of a first-inning altercation between the Cincinnati Reds and St. Louis Cardinals, who evidently don't appreciate being called complainers.

The second baseman had words with Cardinals catcher Yadier Molina when he came to bat in the bottom of the first inning Tuesday night. Phillips removed his helmet, and Molina took off his mask as their exchange escalated.

Captain Hook
08-10-2010, 10:04 PM
Turning the other cheek doesn't do any good. The Cardinals have been the verbal instigators for a couple of years. It's about time someone called them on it.

They're like the big bully on the block.It's about time somebody stopped taking their crap and I'm so glad it's the Reds.

WVRed
08-10-2010, 10:04 PM
This is how ESPN describes the beginning of the fight in their story. Gee you think they are biased. You would think Phillips started it tonight from this description:

This is even better. The title pretty much pins it on Phillips.


Phillips got the showdown series started with a little animosity on Monday by saying he hated the Cardinals, whom he called complainers. Baker talked to him about the comments before the game on Tuesday, saying he wished the second baseman had kept his feelings to himself.

Phillips was more diplomatic after his talk with Baker, but didn't back down.

"Everybody, they respect me for what I said," Phillips said before Tuesday's game. "Those are my comments. A lot of people feel that way all throughout the league. Many people feel that way."

La Russa wasn't happy with Phillips' comment and mentioned it to Reds general manager Walt Jocketty, who worked with him in St. Louis.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-10-2010, 10:05 PM
This is how ESPN describes the beginning of the fight in their story. Gee you think they are biased. You would think Phillips started it tonight from this description:

Gee, kind of reminds me of how they cover college football.

RBA
08-10-2010, 10:05 PM
This is how the privilege class (Cards) behave when they think they are the anointed ones and some upstart (Reds) is taking it away from them fairly and squarely.

WVRed
08-10-2010, 10:06 PM
This is how the privilege class (Cards) behave when they think they are the anointed ones and some upstart (Reds) is taking it away from them fairly and squarely.

Wish that were true, we're about to lose two of our first three to them in this series.

HeatherC1212
08-10-2010, 10:07 PM
Wish that were true, we're about to lose two of our first three to them in this series.

It's only the sixth inning. Can we not proclaim a game over when it's still got more than three innings left? :thumbdown

jojo
08-10-2010, 10:10 PM
This is how ESPN describes the beginning of the fight in their story. Gee you think they are biased. You would think Phillips started it tonight from this description:

its the easy story to write. If the cards win tonight, the next easiest narrative is that the Reds talked off the field and the Cards did theirs on the field....

MattyHo4Life
08-10-2010, 10:11 PM
Is it safe to say the Reds have a true rival again?

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that. :eek:

traderumor
08-10-2010, 11:00 PM
its the easy story to write. If the cards win tonight, the next easiest narrative is that the Reds talked off the field and the Cards did theirs on the field....Sure, if you're John Fay, but lets let the season play out. The Cards are limping (see Pujols, Albert and bad hip) and this one series is not going to win the playoff spot.

REDblooded
08-10-2010, 11:03 PM
I'm worried about losing important guys....and for what?

For what? Hand back your man card...

For showing that this team won't be bullied anymore?

For showing that this team takes each and every game at a personal level?

For showing that this team is ready to do whatever it takes to claim the throne?

MattyHo4Life
08-10-2010, 11:09 PM
This is how ESPN describes the beginning of the fight in their story. Gee you think they are biased. You would think Phillips started it tonight from this description:

I don't think it's bias at all. This is how it looks to an outsider that isn't a Cardinal fan or a Reds fan. Phillips comes across looking like a thug and Molina and the Cardinals are just defending themselves against comments made towards them. Phillips did start it by making those comments. You can't make comments like that and expect nothing to happen.

jojo
08-10-2010, 11:11 PM
For what? Hand back your man card...

For showing that this team won't be bullied anymore?

For showing that this team takes each and every game at a personal level?

For showing that this team is ready to do whatever it takes to claim the throne?

The Reds showed their man card when doing the easy thing. Concerning the important, meaningful stuff tonight, the Reds have been like that guy in Houston who ducked out of the way of the liner that beaned his G/F....

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2010, 11:12 PM
I don't think it's bias at all. This is how it looks to an outsider that isn't a Cardinal fan or a Reds fan. Phillips comes across looking like a thug and Molina and the Cardinals are just defending themselves against comments made towards them. Phillips did start it by making those comments. You can't make comments like that and expect nothing to happen.

Molina started running his mouth. Molina and Carpenter and the rest of the Cardinals team are the ones who come off looking like thugs.

jojo
08-10-2010, 11:12 PM
Molina started running his mouth. Molina and Carpenter and the rest of the Cardinals team are the ones who come off looking like thugs.

seriously?

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2010, 11:13 PM
seriously?

Yeah, seriously. Molina kicked Phillips' bat and started running his mouth. Molina instigated the incident.

jojo
08-10-2010, 11:14 PM
Yeah, seriously. Molina kicked Phillips' bat and started running his mouth. Molina instigated the incident.

But I don't think people outside of Cincy will view it in that vacuum. ESPN and mlb probably aren't going to...

REDblooded
08-10-2010, 11:15 PM
But I don't think people outside of Cincy will view it in that vacuum. ESPN and mlb probably aren't going to...

So your perception is based on what you think others will think vs. what you saw?... That's a firm stance.

jojo
08-10-2010, 11:17 PM
So your perception is based on what you think others will think vs. what you saw?... That's a firm stance.

It's pretty clear from this thread what my perception is...... bush league for both teams and i'm disappointed that the Reds didn't do their talking on the field. But it's not realistic to think the national media is going to see this as the righteous Reds.

deltachi8
08-10-2010, 11:18 PM
But I don't think people outside of Cincy will view it in that vacuum. ESPN and mlb probably aren't going to...

You are correct, sir. BBT crew backed Molina (as do I).

The reds can talk and act tough but the Cardinals are getting ready to sweep their way into first place and that's all that really matters.

REDblooded
08-10-2010, 11:19 PM
You are correct, sir. BBT crew backed Molina (as do I).

The reds can talk and act tough but the Cardinals are getting ready to sweep their way into first place and that's all that really matters.

And then they'll lose 2 of 3 against the Cubs and be right back in second...

MattyHo4Life
08-10-2010, 11:22 PM
And then they'll lose 2 of 3 against the Cubs and be right back in second...

Unless those comments by Phillips ignited a fire under the Cardinals to keep them winning.

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2010, 11:24 PM
Unless those comments by Phillips ignited a fire under the Cardinals to keep them winning.

The Cardinals have serious problems if it takes an opposing player to make some comments to ignite the team.

Blitz Dorsey
08-10-2010, 11:28 PM
The Cardinals are a bunch of ******es. I will never fault someone for speaking the truth. We're just so used to people talking BS in this PC world we live in. If Chris Carpenter isn't the perfect example of a male ******, I don't know who is. Molina is not too far behind. And their manager is the ringleader. Most people that actually follow Major League Baseball would fully agree with what Phillips said. Most people are just afraid to say it.

Brutus
08-10-2010, 11:30 PM
It's pretty clear from this thread what my perception is...... bush league for both teams and i'm disappointed that the Reds didn't do their talking on the field. But it's not realistic to think the national media is going to see this as the righteous Reds.

Does it really matter what ESPN thinks? Besides, they'll do what it takes for ratings. They don't care about motivation or who's right or wrong.

jojo
08-10-2010, 11:31 PM
Does it really matter what ESPN thinks? Besides, they'll do what it takes for ratings. They don't care about motivation or who's right or wrong.

Most of the nation is watching and my team kinda made me sad. To me that's what matters. We wax poetic about how well the Reds play as a team and embody the stuff we get fuzzy about then they mirror what we compain about with St Louis and lay a turd on the field on top of it....

MattyHo4Life
08-10-2010, 11:31 PM
The Cardinals have serious problems if it takes an opposing player to make some comments to ignite the team.

OBM... this 2010 Cardinals team is not the team that I'm used to watching. They have underperformed all season long. When you create a post that says the Cardinals aren't very good, well... it's difficult to defend because they just haven't been doing as well as they should. Schumaker and Ryan especially had horrible first halfs. The Cardinals are a much better team than they showed in the first half. It just seemed like they didn't play with any heart. Maybe it's because they didn't have much of a rivalry to keep them going. They are used to the Cubs and Astros fueling the fire and keeping them going. Up until now... they just seemed to be going through the motions. I mean yeah...they wanted to win, but they have just been underachieving. I think they needed comments like Phillip's to bring them back together as a team, and fire them up. That is why I don't like it when players pop off about a team right before a big game or series.

jojo
08-10-2010, 11:34 PM
OBM... this 2010 Cardinals team is not the team that I'm used to watching. They have underperformed all season long. When you create a post that says the Cardinals aren't very good, well... it's difficult to defend because they just haven't been doing as well as they should. Schumaker and Ryan especially had horrible first halfs. The Cardinals are a much better team than they showed in the first half. It just seemed like they didn't play with any heart. Maybe it's because they didn't have much of a rivalry to keep them going. They are used to the Cubs and Astros fueling the fire and keeping them going. Up until now... they just seemed to be going through the motions. I mean yeah...they wanted to win, but they have just been underachieving. I think they needed comments like Phillip's to bring them back together as a team, and fire them up. That is why I don't like it when players pop off about a team right before a big game or series.

I think the spirit of that thread was that if the Reds don't tank or fade, the Cards aren't going to run away. But ya, the Cards don't "suck".

traderumor
08-10-2010, 11:34 PM
Unless those comments by Phillips ignited a fire under the Cardinals to keep them winning.Well, now you've given Fay another line for his game story tomorrow ;) The Cards have outhit and outpitched the Reds in two games, which they have done for most of the season with Crissy, Wainwright, and Garcia against the league according to the pitchers W/L records. I wouldn't make anymore of it than that.

Brutus
08-10-2010, 11:34 PM
Most of the nation is watching and my team kinda made me sad. To me that's what matters.

One thing I learned from college sports, people will see what they want to see anyhow. If they want to hate someone, they'll find a way to do so. You can't really change perceptions.

Heck, Jim Tressel comes across as the most honest, laid-back, sincere coach around. Do you think he's popular nationally? People hate him because they think he's too fake (and he coaches Ohio State).

I'm a fan of being classy, but I'm also a fan of not being PC and being honest with one's self. I don't subscribe to being someone you're not. I may not agree with all views or actions, but I'd rather people be genuine where I can respect them for it than wanting to hang on to believing in someone that's not themselves.

I love guys like Mark Cuban and Bruce Pearl (to name a few). They say things they shouldn't, but they are who we think they are. I appreciate that.

blumj
08-10-2010, 11:34 PM
But I don't think people outside of Cincy will view it in that vacuum. ESPN and mlb probably aren't going to...

People who aren't Reds fans or Cards fans don't really care. Do many of you bother to take sides or make judgements when the Tigers and White Sox get into one of these things?

Degenerate39
08-10-2010, 11:35 PM
Bring up Chapman. Let him to bean Pujols with a fastball tomorrow.

jojo
08-10-2010, 11:37 PM
People who aren't Reds fans or Cards fans don't really care. Do many of you bother to take sides or make judgements when the Tigers and White Sox get into one of these things?

I remember how cool Galarraga is whether he really is or isn't (cuz I don't follow the Tigers) based upon a 30 second window of his season.

kaldaniels
08-10-2010, 11:38 PM
Where was Nix in this skirmish...I drool at the thought of him landing a haymaker. Or putting Carpenter in a sleeper hold with those pythons of his.

kaldaniels
08-10-2010, 11:47 PM
That escalated quickly. Brick killed a guy.

*BaseClogger*
08-10-2010, 11:50 PM
Bring up Chapman. Let him to bean Pujols with a fastball tomorrow.


Where was Nix in this skirmish...I drool at the thought of him landing a haymaker. Or putting Carpenter in a sleeper hold with those pythons of his.

:laugh:


That escalated quickly. Brick killed a guy.

http://www.jamespreller.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/brick.jpg

kaldaniels
08-10-2010, 11:52 PM
:laugh:



http://www.jamespreller.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/brick.jpg

Outstanding BC :thumbup:

CTA513
08-10-2010, 11:53 PM
Where was Nix in this skirmish...I drool at the thought of him landing a haymaker. Or putting Carpenter in a sleeper hold with those pythons of his.

He was in the dugout in the fetal position.

;)

traderumor
08-10-2010, 11:55 PM
I remember how cool Galarraga is whether he really is or isn't (cuz I don't follow the Tigers) based upon a 30 second window of his season.I'm not understanding why you are advancing the point that people who form an opinion based on a shallow perspective is of any consequence.

Reds Fanatic
08-11-2010, 12:06 AM
LaRussa is insane. His version of the fight. Phillips started it Molina did nothing.

CTA513
08-11-2010, 12:07 AM
LaRussa is insane. His version of the fight. Phillips started it Molina did nothing.

I expect Baker to say about the same thing.

REDblooded
08-11-2010, 12:09 AM
I remember how cool Galarraga is whether he really is or isn't (cuz I don't follow the Tigers) based upon a 30 second window of his season.

Shake the etch-a-sketch and look again... Your 30 second freeze-frame has since yielded a pitcher that has gone:

1-4 in 65.1 ip, 5.10 ERA, given up 75 hits, 25 bb's, and "amassed" 27 k's to 11 hr's...

Man that's cool...

Captain Hook
08-11-2010, 12:13 AM
I hate to say it but Cueto kicking guys with his cleats is probably going to get him in some trouble.

Tony Cloninger
08-11-2010, 12:13 AM
Look....Phillips said what he did....and should have just stuck to it...by NOT saying one word to any Cardinal ...let alone tap his bat on Molina's shinguard.

You think he did not know something would not come out of that? Come on.

HeatherC1212
08-11-2010, 12:13 AM
I expect Baker to say about the same thing.

Actually, he didn't. He kind of gave blame to both guys although he did say that he thought Molina started it during Brandon's pre at bat ritual by kicking his bat away and then saying something to him. He basically said both sides got riled up, he said things, TLR said some things, someone else said something, and then it got ugly. He didn't really blame anyone in particular but did say that it was Molina taking exception to Brandon's at bat ritual that really got the ball rolling. He was more fair than TLR about it but that could be my Reds colored glasses talking.

Scott Rolen is fast becoming one of my favorite people. His interview right now is pure class. He'll get these guys straightened out and they'll be fine long term. He was also funny: "I needed Cairo after that fight. I was exhausted before my first at bat." :laugh:

Reds Fanatic
08-11-2010, 12:17 AM
I am sure Cueto is going to be in trouble but when you really look at the replay he was pushed on his back. He was basically trying to get off and kicked out. Which was not right but the Cardinals painting themselves as totally innocent is ridiculous.

CTA513
08-11-2010, 12:17 AM
I hate to say it but Cueto kicking guys with his cleats is probably going to get him in some trouble.

Channel 12 said LaRussa told them that LaRue suffered a concussion from Cuetos kicks.

Reds Fanatic
08-11-2010, 12:20 AM
Carpenter also says Cueto kicked him in the back. Cueto was not near Carpenter. I could see LaRue getting kicked from where Cueto was but Carpenter. He may have been kicked but I don't think it was Cueto.

Cedric
08-11-2010, 12:22 AM
Cueto is pinned against the damn wall. Was he supposed to just get pinned down and damn near buried alive?

I don't think it was that malicious.

Cedric
08-11-2010, 12:23 AM
And imagine our bad luck. We somehow give Larue a concussion and he can't play tomorrow.

How about that for extreme bad luck?

VR
08-11-2010, 12:36 AM
Channel 12 said LaRussa told them that LaRue suffered a concussion from Cuetos kicks.

When was that diagnosis....during the game when LaRue was yucking it up on the bench? Sounds like a lawyer trying to play on the sympathies of the jury. Oh, that's right........

VR
08-11-2010, 12:37 AM
The home plate umpire's version of what was said to start it all would be interesting to hear.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-11-2010, 12:38 AM
It will be interesting to see if anyone sitting behind the plate had their phones recording, and if so place the vid on youtube.

Unassisted
08-11-2010, 12:47 AM
So you have to figure that this isn't over and someone will get plunked tomorrow. Phillips?

CTA513
08-11-2010, 12:48 AM
Has the Cardinals feed of the brawl been posted online yet?

HeatherC1212
08-11-2010, 12:50 AM
So you have to figure that this isn't over and someone will get plunked tomorrow. Phillips?

I have a feeling that the game tomorrow will be very quiet. Bronson won't throw at someone unless Wainright throws at one of his guys and the guys seem to care more about winning than starting more fights. If provoked, they may have some issues but I can see tomorrow's game just being a pitcher's duel with a close score either way.

KronoRed
08-11-2010, 12:52 AM
Who cares? words are words and mean nothing, the Reds have rolled over on the field in two games, that is all that matters.

Captain Hook
08-11-2010, 12:57 AM
I think in the end this looks bad for the Reds.BP did say what he said and I would expect Yadi or some one else to say or do something.Things just got out of hand.Everyone following this story just knows that this is how things got going.BP basically insulted an entire team using less then appropriate language.He will come across looking like a thug and Dusty and the Reds will come across looking like the babies that we all know the Cardinals are.Right now people are laughing at the Reds because not only do they think they started all of this they've also lost the last two games to the Cards badly.

FWIW I could care less about any of this and I actually think that this is great press.People are learning who the Reds are and while they may not like them they know who they are for the first time in a long time.For some strange reason good teams in all sports are usually not liked much so if the Reds make some enemy's along their road to becoming a good team then so be it.

Win tomorrow and the Reds can still come away from this pointing at the scoreboard.

Spitball
08-11-2010, 01:20 AM
Look....Phillips said what he did....and should have just stuck to it...by NOT saying one word to any Cardinal ...let alone tap his bat on Molina's shinguard.

You think he did not know something would not come out of that? Come on.

Shoot...what are you saying? Phillips can shoot his mouth off in the paper but not say a word on the field??? I don't think either one of us can say what started the confrontation between Molina and Phillips, but if he says it in the paper, he better be prepared to say it to their faces...and he apparently did. Good for him.

The Reds lost and that sucks, but I don't blame Phillips. He didn't lose balls in the sun or lose command of his fastball. He made the game personal between the two teams and added some heart to the game. The Yankees and Red Sox have played that kind of game for years.

sabometrics
08-11-2010, 01:52 AM
It will be interesting to see if anyone sitting behind the plate had their phones recording, and if so place the vid on youtube.

You could see from the video that there were like at least 2 or 3 people right there recording the whole thing from no less than inches away from the scrum. Nothing up on YT yet except the Reds feed. I'm curious as to what the Cards announcer's take was.

NDRed
08-11-2010, 02:19 AM
Has anyone mentioned the fact that Molina stepped forward to prevent Phillips from stepping in to the batters box? That makes it a little difficult to avoid a confrontation.

I'm guessing Molina and Phillips get a couple of days off and Cuerto a 5 game suspension for the kicking.

RedsManRick
08-11-2010, 02:45 AM
I think Phillips gets beaned tomorrow, the teams get warned, and that's the end of it for now.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 03:03 AM
Channel 12 said LaRussa told them that LaRue suffered a concussion from Cuetos kicks.

Maybe LaRussa should tell his starting catcher to not pick fights and then things like this wouldn't happen.

alexad
08-11-2010, 03:14 AM
If LaRue suffered a concussion, he was fine with the Kiss Cam hit him and somebody beside him in the dugout and the player reached over and kissed LaRue on the cheek. Maybe he fell over then and got a concussion.

alexad
08-11-2010, 03:17 AM
I was at the game and it started like bam bam thank ya m'am. The place went nuts and I was really hoping this would have sparked the Reds. It should have, but it did not . I am actually kinda of glad to see the Reds show some emotion. Even though they did not win tonight, they are still tied for first and showed the rest of the league they will not be messed with.

I hate to see fights, but sometimes something like this builds some team character. Still plenty of baseball left and the Reds showed they are not going down without a fight.

fearofpopvol1
08-11-2010, 03:22 AM
If LaRue suffered a concussion, he was fine with the Kiss Cam hit him and somebody beside him in the dugout and the player reached over and kissed LaRue on the cheek. Maybe he fell over then and got a concussion.

It was Carpenter.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 03:50 AM
Quotes from a Brewers message board:


Melvin, give them Gallardo, Braun, Fielder, Escobar, Lawrie, and Cain. The Brewers need this guy.



The best part about what he said is that it's 100% true.

There are plenty of other great quotes in support of Phillips:

http://brewersfandemonium.yuku.com/topic/23099/t/Brandon-Phillips-Choice-Words---Cardinals-Latest-benches-cle.html?page=1

sabometrics
08-11-2010, 04:07 AM
North Side Baseball: <3 Brandon Phillips (http://www.northsidebaseball.com/forum/topic?f=29&t=58076)

Has it's detractors, but largely favoring the Reds.

BrewersCubs.com: Brandon Phillips Appreciation Thread (http://www.brewerscubs.com/messageboard/4/12598.html)

Razor Shines
08-11-2010, 04:37 AM
It sure was nice to see Cueto pumping fastballs in the mid to upper 90s in the second inning, I'm sure that didn't wear him out at all.

I don't like Molina any more than any one else here, but what did BP think he was going to do after he tapped him on the shin guard?

You're going to call him a b**** in the media, ok fine, but don't go tap his shin guard like you didn't say anything. Are you gonna fist bump someone that just called you and your boys b*****s? Probably not.

reds44
08-11-2010, 04:41 AM
Phillips taps the umpire and the catchers shin guard every game. Seeing as how this isn't the first time Phillips has led off a game against the Cardinals, I'm not sure why he wouldn't do it.

Molina was trying to be a tough guy and start some stuff. Pretty simple.

Somehow Rasums and Lopez made comments about the Reds, and Hernandez/Hanigan didn't decide to be tough guys at get in their face.

Same thing with Votto and the Cubs.

Razor Shines
08-11-2010, 04:46 AM
Phillips taps the umpire and the catchers shin GUARDS every game. Seeing as how this isn't the first time Phillips has led off a game against the Cardinals, I'm not sure why he wouldn't do it.

Molina was trying to be a tough guy and start some stuff. Pretty simple.

Somehow Rasums and Lopez made comments about the Reds, and Hernandez/Hanigan didn't decide to be tough guys at get in their face.

Same thing with Votto and the Cubs.

Oh, ok shin guardS. Geez.

I know he does it every game, it's akin to a fist bump. I say again, someone called you and your boys b*****s the night before are you going to fist bump him before the game? BP, said what he said, he should have just got in the box and ignored Molina.

reds44
08-11-2010, 04:49 AM
Oh, ok shin guardS. Geez.

I know he does it every game, it's akin to a fist bump. I say again, someone called you and your boys b*****s the night before are you going to fist bump him before the game? BP, said what he said, he should have just got in the box and ignored Molina.
Woah. Didn't mean for guards to be capitalized, not sure what happend there lol.

I'll ask again, why didn't anybody get into the face of Rasmus, Lopez, or Votto?

And that's not even comparable. Sorry, if somebody called one of my friends a b**** I don't think I'd be within a foot of him the next day. If he tried to give me love, I'd probably ask him if he was serious and then walk away.

I wouldn't get up in his face and act like an idiot like Molina did.

Razor Shines
08-11-2010, 04:56 AM
Woah. Didn't mean for guards to be capitalized, not sure what happend there lol.

I'll ask again, why didn't anybody get into the face of Rasmus, Lopez, or Votto?

And that's not even comparable. Sorry, if somebody called one of my friends a b**** I don't think I'd be within a foot of him the next day. If he tried to give me love, I'd probably ask him if he was serious and then walk away.

I wouldn't get up in his face and act like an idiot like Molina did.

Those were all different, flat out name calling is different than what those guys said. Even if it's warranted and probably true, it's different.

Sure it is, well for me anyway. Sometimes you have to be around people that talk bad about you.

Of course Molina acted like an idiot, but I don't really care about him he's not on my team. I still say if BP just gets in the box and doesn't tap Molina the situation may have been avoided. I think it changed the game, I think Cueto over threw that second inning and it hurt him later in the game.

reds44
08-11-2010, 04:59 AM
Those were all different, flat out name calling is different than what those guys said. Even if it's warranted and probably true, it's different.

Sure it is, well for me anyway. Sometimes you have to be around people that talk bad about you.

Of course Molina acted like an idiot, but I don't really care about him he's not on my team. I still say if BP just gets in the box and doesn't tap Molina the situation may have been avoided. I think it changed the game, I think Cueto over threw that second inning and it hurt him later in the game.
But couldn't you argue Phillips was trying to diffuse everything by trying to be cordial to Molina as he stepped to the plate? I really doubt Phillips expected anything like that. Phillips isn't blameless though, if he doesn't make the original comments none of this happens.

And there's no doubt Cueto was overthrowing, I'm with you there. He's young, we're young, he'll learn and we'll learn. If anything is to be taken from this series it's that expierence does matter. I thinky you'll see us play much better in St. Louis in September.

reds44
08-11-2010, 05:02 AM
Razor, I can only speak on one life expierence similar to this.

I dated this girl one time, and she had a best friend she was really close with. Her best friend happend to be dating somebody who I never got a long with.

The first time we ever all were together in the same spot, he pulled me aside and told me that even though we didn't get that we were going to be seeing a lot of each other so we just needed to put it behind us.

I didn't get in his face. We agreed, we shook hands, and we moved on.

Razor Shines
08-11-2010, 05:07 AM
But couldn't you argue Phillips was trying to diffuse everything by trying to be cordial to Molina as he stepped to the plate? I really doubt Phillips expected anything like that. Phillips isn't blameless though, if he doesn't make the original comments none of this happens.

And there's no doubt Cueto was overthrowing, I'm with you there. He's young, we're young, he'll learn and we'll learn. If anything is to be taken from this series it's that expierence does matter. I thinky you'll see us play much better in St. Louis in September.

Maybe that's what Phillips was trying to do, but the next day? I don't know, clearly Molina is not mature enough for that.


Razor, I can only speak on one life expierence similar to this.

I dated this girl one time, and she had a best friend she was really close with. Her best friend happend to be dating somebody who I never got a long with.

The first time we ever all were together in the same spot, he pulled me aside and told me that even though we didn't get that we were going to be seeing a lot of each other so we just needed to put it behind us.

I didn't get in his face. We agreed, we shook hands, and we moved on.

Well clearly you're both more mature than Molina and Phillips. But these guys aren't going on any double dates. I have a feeling you two may have acted differently if you were on opposing teams in the middle of a pennant race.

reds44
08-11-2010, 05:11 AM
I don't blame Phillips for tapping Molina on the shin guards, I probably would have done the same thing if I was him. As I said, he's not blameless because clearly this doesn't happen if he doesn't say what he said, but the "brawl" is on Molina.

As for your second point, point taken.

Going back to Phillips comments, doesn't the brawl kind of supports what he's been saying about the Cardinals? He taps Molina on the shin guards, Molina complains. After the game, the Cardinals are complaining in the media.

Look at the quote in my signature. "All they do is b and moan." That's why he called them what he called them. Seems like all the Cardinals did tonight was support what Phillips said.

I know somebody is going to mention that the Reds lost, but where did Phillips say the Cardinals were bad at baseball? He didn't.

Phillips was right and continues to be right.

Razor Shines
08-11-2010, 05:13 AM
I don't blame Phillips for tapping Molina on the shin guards, I probably would have done the same thing if I was him. As I said, he's not blameless because clearly this doesn't happen if he doesn't say what he said, but the "brawl" is on Molina.

As for your second point, point taken.

Going back to Phillips comments, doesn't the brawl kind of supports what he's been saying about the Cardinals? He taps Molina on the shin guards, Molina complains. After the game, the Cardinals are complaining in the media.

Look at the quote in my signature. "All they do is b and moan." That's why he called them what he called them. Seems like all the Cardinals did tonight was support what Phillips said.

I know somebody is going to mention that the Reds lost, but where did Phillips say the Cardinals were bad at baseball? He didn't.

Phillips was right and continues to be right.

I don't think I've ever thought Phillips was wrong about what he said, I just wish he hadn't said it to the media.

reds44
08-11-2010, 05:15 AM
I don't think I've ever thought Phillips was wrong about what he said, I just wish he hadn't said it to the media.
Never said you did, but all the Cardinals did was prove what they are.

A good baseball team that is full of b****es.

Razor Shines
08-11-2010, 05:24 AM
Never said you did, but all the Cardinals did was prove what they are.

A good baseball team that is full of b****es.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you did.

GAC
08-11-2010, 06:43 AM
Look....Phillips said what he did....and should have just stuck to it...by NOT saying one word to any Cardinal ...let alone tap his bat on Molina's shinguard.

You think he did not know something would not come out of that? Come on.

Exactly! And I don't care if the "tapping" is a game time habit of Phillips, somehow Molina was suppose to see it simply as a friendly gesture, and is an idiot for not doing so. You say something like what BP said about me, and it was pretty harsh, regardless if it's true or not, the next day I'm probably not going to be in a very friendly mood and you ought to stay clear not knowing how I might react regardless.

It's simply amazing to me that we have many on this forum, because of the Card's trash talking the Reds in the past - and yes, they have done so - that they want our team to take action and react. And I'm referring to our pitchers hitting certain key Card players during game time.

Yet our player trash talks, and we don't expect the Card players to react? And when they do it just confirms what BP said, and that they are a bunch of thugs? It just doesn't make any sense.

So who won that brawl? I don't see any winners. Oh yeah, and we lost the game. And its evident, from what I read on the Red's website this morning, that it basically took Cueto out of his game because he said it emotionally upset him and he then tried to do too much afterwards.

The umps kicked out both of the managers, and that was the extent of their actions, because they are going to let MLB examine the tape - and boy will they - and issue suspensions and fines. So now we're going to probably lose some key players going down the stretch that could very well lead to some unnecessary losses that we cannot afford.

Yeah, the Cards may be whiners and thugs. But as far as I'm concerned, we've let that get under our skin, become a focal point or distraction, especially with some of our players, when we shouldn't allow it to do so.

The whole thing was stupid and accomplished nothing IMO. Yeah, we really showed them Cards we aren't going to let them bully us around. :rolleyes:

mth123
08-11-2010, 07:39 AM
Exactly! And I don't care if the "tapping" is a game time habit of Phillips, somehow Molina was suppose to see it simply as a friendly gesture, and is an idiot for not doing so. You say something like what BP said about me, and it was pretty harsh, regardless if it's true or not, the next day I'm probably not going to be in a very friendly mood and you ought to stay clear not knowing how I might react regardless.

It's simply amazing to me that we have many on this forum, because of the Card's trash talking the Reds in the past - and yes, they have done so - that they want our team to take action and react. And I'm referring to our pitchers hitting certain key Card players during game time.

Yet our player trash talks, and we don't expect the Card players to react? And when they do it just confirms what BP said, and that they are a bunch of thugs? It just doesn't make any sense.

So who won that brawl? I don't see any winners. Oh yeah, and we lost the game. And its evident, from what I read on the Red's website this morning, that it basically took Cueto out of his game because he said it emotionally upset him and he then tried to do too much afterwards.

The umps kicked out both of the managers, and that was the extent of their actions, because they are going to let MLB examine the tape - and boy will they - and issue suspensions and fines. So now we're going to probably lose some key players going down the stretch that could very well lead to some unnecessary losses that we cannot afford.

Yeah, the Cards may be whiners and thugs. But as far as I'm concerned, we've let that get under our skin, become a focal point or distraction, especially with some of our players, when we shouldn't allow it to do so.

The whole thing was stupid and accomplished nothing IMO. Yeah, we really showed them Cards we aren't going to let them bully us around. :rolleyes:

:thumbup:

Eric_the_Red
08-11-2010, 07:57 AM
I can't believe (well actually I can) that it took 9 pages of posts for the Rosey Red colored glasses to come off and someone to see this for what it was: a fight instigated by BP. Talk trash all you want, but then don't try to act like nothing happened the next day when you're face to face.

If you "hate" someone, why tap them on the shinguards? BP comes off looking very, very bad in this one. And the Reds by extension.

If the Reds lose today, and then BP, Rolen and Cueto get suspended, will most of you still be so happy about yesterday's events?

Having said that, I was glad to see the Reds go after the Cards when it went down, and wish that there wasn't a player between Rolen and Carpenter when they went at it.

cumberlandreds
08-11-2010, 08:20 AM
Exactly! And I don't care if the "tapping" is a game time habit of Phillips, somehow Molina was suppose to see it simply as a friendly gesture, and is an idiot for not doing so. You say something like what BP said about me, and it was pretty harsh, regardless if it's true or not, the next day I'm probably not going to be in a very friendly mood and you ought to stay clear not knowing how I might react regardless.

It's simply amazing to me that we have many on this forum, because of the Card's trash talking the Reds in the past - and yes, they have done so - that they want our team to take action and react. And I'm referring to our pitchers hitting certain key Card players during game time.

Yet our player trash talks, and we don't expect the Card players to react? And when they do it just confirms what BP said, and that they are a bunch of thugs? It just doesn't make any sense.

So who won that brawl? I don't see any winners. Oh yeah, and we lost the game. And its evident, from what I read on the Red's website this morning, that it basically took Cueto out of his game because he said it emotionally upset him and he then tried to do too much afterwards.

The umps kicked out both of the managers, and that was the extent of their actions, because they are going to let MLB examine the tape - and boy will they - and issue suspensions and fines. So now we're going to probably lose some key players going down the stretch that could very well lead to some unnecessary losses that we cannot afford.

Yeah, the Cards may be whiners and thugs. But as far as I'm concerned, we've let that get under our skin, become a focal point or distraction, especially with some of our players, when we shouldn't allow it to do so.

The whole thing was stupid and accomplished nothing IMO. Yeah, we really showed them Cards we aren't going to let them bully us around. :rolleyes:

A better post couldn't have been written. :thumbup: The Reds just need to shut up and play baseball. They haven't won a thing in 15 years. You don't start trash talking the usual division champion until you unseat them. If you don't like how they go about their business then just beat them. Don't start name calling and stupid crap like that. That's Little League stuff. Just go out play baseball like you have the first four months of the season and you will be just fine.

Always Red
08-11-2010, 08:29 AM
The Reds just need to shut and play baseball.

:beerme:

jojo
08-11-2010, 09:15 AM
I'm not understanding why you are advancing the point that people who form an opinion based on a shallow perspective is of any consequence.

Clearly I'm advancing the point that we as Reds fans have absolutely zero to revel about concerning last night. To the extent that the national audience was mentioned it's only 1) because we're on the national stage finally and it stinks to see them do what they did last night, and 2) it's not likely the "we showed 'em" showed anything to anyone.

jojo
08-11-2010, 09:17 AM
Shake the etch-a-sketch and look again... Your 30 second freeze-frame has since yielded a pitcher that has gone:

1-4 in 65.1 ip, 5.10 ERA, given up 75 hits, 25 bb's, and "amassed" 27 k's to 11 hr's...

Man that's cool...

That kind of missed the point...

Roy Tucker
08-11-2010, 09:26 AM
Exactly! And I don't care if the "tapping" is a game time habit of Phillips, somehow Molina was suppose to see it simply as a friendly gesture, and is an idiot for not doing so. You say something like what BP said about me, and it was pretty harsh, regardless if it's true or not, the next day I'm probably not going to be in a very friendly mood and you ought to stay clear not knowing how I might react regardless.

It's simply amazing to me that we have many on this forum, because of the Card's trash talking the Reds in the past - and yes, they have done so - that they want our team to take action and react. And I'm referring to our pitchers hitting certain key Card players during game time.

Yet our player trash talks, and we don't expect the Card players to react? And when they do it just confirms what BP said, and that they are a bunch of thugs? It just doesn't make any sense.

So who won that brawl? I don't see any winners. Oh yeah, and we lost the game. And its evident, from what I read on the Red's website this morning, that it basically took Cueto out of his game because he said it emotionally upset him and he then tried to do too much afterwards.

The umps kicked out both of the managers, and that was the extent of their actions, because they are going to let MLB examine the tape - and boy will they - and issue suspensions and fines. So now we're going to probably lose some key players going down the stretch that could very well lead to some unnecessary losses that we cannot afford.

Yeah, the Cards may be whiners and thugs. But as far as I'm concerned, we've let that get under our skin, become a focal point or distraction, especially with some of our players, when we shouldn't allow it to do so.

The whole thing was stupid and accomplished nothing IMO. Yeah, we really showed them Cards we aren't going to let them bully us around. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I think that's what happened. I think the Reds need to shut up and let their playing do their talking. Everybody.

We were at the game last night and I hadn't seen the Reds play this bad in months. The Cards executed and took advantage of every dumb thing the Reds did. The Reds looked like the Reds of this past decade. I thought they were past that.

traderumor
08-11-2010, 09:50 AM
Clearly I'm advancing the point that we as Reds fans have absolutely zero to revel about concerning last night. To the extent that the national audience was mentioned it's only 1) because we're on the national stage finally and it stinks to see them do what they did last night, and 2) it's not likely the "we showed 'em" showed anything to anyone.I haven't seen any "reveling." Some, like me, are just not really concerned about the opinions of those who form them from highlights and sound bytes.

jojo
08-11-2010, 10:33 AM
I haven't seen any "reveling." Some, like me, are just not really concerned about the opinions of those who form them from highlights and sound bytes.

That's cool but it's also a very, very minor tangent to the main point.

REDREAD
08-11-2010, 10:34 AM
Yeah, the Cardinals did nothing wrong. I guess it's OK for Felipe Lopez and Colby Rasmus to run their mouth but Phillips can't.

Why does Phillips have to touch the catcher and the ump with his bat each time he goes to the plate? I guess I never noticed that. I could see how that would be extrememly annoying.. Imagine if a Cardinal tapped our catcher with his bat every time he went to hit.

I missed the game, but Phillips shouldn't do that.

Cedric
08-11-2010, 10:34 AM
Why does Phillips have to touch the catcher and the ump with his bat each time he goes to the plate? I guess I never noticed that. I could see how that would be extrememly annoying.. Imagine if a Cardinal tapped our catcher with his bat every time he went to hit.

I missed the game, but Phillips shouldn't do that.

He does it when first batting as a way to say hi.

Want to know who else does that? Think hard and watch him today.

Hoosier Red
08-11-2010, 10:44 AM
It sure was nice to see Cueto pumping fastballs in the mid to upper 90s in the second inning, I'm sure that didn't wear him out at all.

I don't like Molina any more than any one else here, but what did BP think he was going to do after he tapped him on the shin guard?

You're going to call him a b**** in the media, ok fine, but don't go tap his shin guard like you didn't say anything. Are you gonna fist bump someone that just called you and your boys b*****s? Probably not.

I said this on another thread, but why would anything change because he came up and touched Molina's shin guards. If the Cardinals have a problem with what he said or did;
Fastball to the ribs.
Phillips walks 90 feet and the whole is over with. Instead Molina has to get up and b**ch and complain and all of a sudden we're playing the feud.

Unassisted
08-11-2010, 11:03 AM
I said this on another thread, but why would anything change because he came up and touched Molina's shin guards. If the Cardinals have a problem with what he said or did;
Fastball to the ribs.
Phillips walks 90 feet and the whole is over with. Instead Molina has to get up and b**ch and complain and all of a sudden we're playing the feud.Molina said after the game that this is Phillips way of saying "Hi" and that he has no interest in exchanging pleasantries with someone who said those things to the media about his team.

Homer Bailey
08-11-2010, 11:06 AM
After re-watching the fight, it was clear that the whole thing was going to be over, until Carpenter said SOMETHING to Dusty. Whatever that something was, it made all the players turn toward Carpenter, and the UMPIRE immediately turned and said something to Carp. This caused several Reds to start saying things to Carpenter, and that's when it got out of hand quickly. The fracas was OVER until whatever Carpenter said, and I'd pay anything to have heard whatever that whiny little you know what said.

Homer Bailey
08-11-2010, 11:12 AM
Phillips calls the Cardinals "complainers"

Phillips comes to the plate, and Molina walks out to him, complaining about being called "complainers". Skirmish ensues

TLR complains to Walt Jocketty about the comments.

Wasn't Phillips pretty much dead on?

Good one from North Side Baseball.

http://www.northsidebaseball.com/forum/topic?f=29&t=58076&sid=c13e203f131676cff9d2be151ea9e739&start=25

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 11:17 AM
Good one from North Side Baseball.

http://www.northsidebaseball.com/forum/topic?f=29&t=58076&sid=c13e203f131676cff9d2be151ea9e739&start=25

Now those guys are thugs. I used to post on a Chicago forum, and I think I was the only Cardinals fan that they didn't ban, but some of those guys were really psycho. I chose not to go there anymore, because I felt my IQ dropping a point by every post I read. lol

George Anderson
08-11-2010, 11:18 AM
After re-watching the fight, it was clear that the whole thing was going to be over, until Carpenter said SOMETHING to Dusty. Whatever that something was, it made all the players turn toward Carpenter, and the UMPIRE immediately turned and said something to Carp. This caused several Reds to start saying things to Carpenter, and that's when it got out of hand quickly. The fracas was OVER until whatever Carpenter said, and I'd pay anything to have heard whatever that whiny little you know what said.

This is good that the umpire actually heard what Carpenter said to Baker because the umpire will be filing a report to MLB and no doubt he will be including what Carpenter said to Baker in the report. This can't be good for Carpenter.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 11:42 AM
its evident, from what I read on the Red's website this morning, that it basically took Cueto out of his game because he said it emotionally upset him and he then tried to do too much afterwards.

So now Cueto is making excuses? Is he being a crybaby now? It didn't seem to bother Garcia, and he was on the visiting team. I don't like excuses no matter who is making them. I've never defended Rasmus for his comments and I never defended the slippery balls excuse. If you get beat on the field then you get beat on the field. You need to be able to overcome everything else and focus on your game if you are going to play October baseball, because the playoffs are a whole different kind of animal.

REDREAD
08-11-2010, 11:43 AM
He does it when first batting as a way to say hi.

Want to know who else does that? Think hard and watch him today.

I just finished reading the whole thread.

Based on what I've seen of Brandon Phillips his entire career, he's very immature emotionally. He's a great athlete, but immature.

I think we need to take our Red Rosey Glasses off too. Phillips can talk trash, but then he's got to expect the Cards to get annoyed when he taps them with his bat.. Think about it..If an acquaitance is pissed at you, do you walk up to them and give them a hug, tap, or silly gesture? Of course not.. they've got a short fuse, you give them space.

Molinda probably interpreted Phillips tap as some kind of dominance establishing gesture, which is understandable.

Phillips initiated the physical contact. Let's be realistic, Phillips is not friendly with the Cards. Regardless of Phillip's intentions, Phillips has to be aware of how that is going to be percieved by Molinda after Phillilps ran his mouth to the media.. That's called maturity, something that Phillips doesn't have.

Someone else was acting as if the national media was doing us wrong by portraying Phillips as a troublemaker. There's no conspiracy. Phillips made a fool out of himself and needs to grow up.

lollipopcurve
08-11-2010, 11:45 AM
After watching the video. I'd say the two managers were the main culprits. The fact that they were there yelling at each other kept the scrum inflamed. Then, when Carpenter said something to Baker -- an instigation of some sort -- Baker started yelling at him and things got crazy.

I thought Cueto was acting pretty much in self-defense. Did more than he needed to, probably, but in a crush of people with your back against a wall, restraint can't be expected.

It's on the managers, Phillips, Molina and Carpenter, at least.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 11:47 AM
After watching the video. I'd say the two managers were the main culprits. The fact that they were there yelling at each other kept the scrum inflamed. Then, when Carpenter said something to Baker -- an instigation of some sort -- Baker started yelling at him and things got crazy.

I thought Cueto was acting pretty much in self-defense. Did more than he needed to, probably, but in a crush of people with your back against a wall, restraint can't be expected.

It's on the managers, Phillips, Molina and Carpenter, at least.

LaRussa and Baker just can't get along can they? They have had these heated games for years when Baker managed the Giants and especially the Cubs.

I think Cueto was out of line kicking people. You have metal spikes on and you are kicking people? That's just can't happen.

WVRed
08-11-2010, 11:48 AM
The more I think about it, the more I wonder what Carpenter said that got Baker (and for that matter, a former Cardinal trying to play peacemaker in Rolen) so fired up.

I've got my suspicions, but it may have been something that might alienate people in his own clubhouse. Any takers?

kaldaniels
08-11-2010, 11:50 AM
The more I think about it, the more I wonder what Carpenter said that got Baker (and for that matter, a former Cardinal trying to play peacemaker in Rolen) so fired up.

I've got my suspicions, but it may have been something that might alienate people in his own clubhouse. Any takers?

Just trying to guess what you are thinking...is it skin color related?

lollipopcurve
08-11-2010, 11:51 AM
I think Cueto was out of line kicking people. You have metal spikes on and you are kicking people? That's just can't happen.

Watch it again. He's a little guy and he's up against the wall in a crush of people. Did he do more than the minimum to extricate himself? Yes. Does he deserve a suspension? Probably. Should he miss more than 1 start? Absolutely not.

Homer Bailey
08-11-2010, 11:51 AM
So now Cueto is making excuses? Is he being a crybaby now? It didn't seem to bother Garcia, and he was on the visiting team. I don't like excuses no matter who is making them. I've never defended Rasmus for his comments and I never defended the slippery balls excuse. If you get beat on the field then you get beat on the field. You need to be able to overcome everything else and focus on your game if you are going to play October baseball, because the playoffs are a whole different kind of animal.

Dear God. I enjoy your posts for the most part, but you are way off base on this one.

How is Cueto being a crybaby? You don't expect a player to be emotional after getting pinned up against a wall? You don't expect him to overthrow the ball a bit? Where is he blaming anyone else?

Complaining is when you whine about things like baseballs, and that the other pitcher is throwing too much doo-doo. Saying that the emotions of the fight affected his pitching is far from being a crybaby.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 11:54 AM
Dear God. I enjoy your posts for the most part, but you are way off base on this one.

How is Cueto being a crybaby? You don't expect a player to be emotional after getting pinned up against a wall? You don't expect him to overthrow the ball a bit? Where is he blaming anyone else?

Complaining is when you whine about things like baseballs, and that the other pitcher is throwing too much doo-doo. Saying that the emotions of the fight affected his pitching is far from being a crybaby.

Well...most of my post was intended to be sarcastic. However, I do think if you are going to make a big deal about an excuse that Rasmus made, then Cueto's excuse should matter at least a little bit. Garcia didn't seem to be affected by it, and he is a rookie on the visiting team. Would Cueto have said that if his team had won?

Tony Cloninger
08-11-2010, 12:01 PM
Cueto's emotions have been a problem.....just based on some of his meltdowns that happen during innings when things do not go his way. He loses focus easily.
I looked at the brawl as objectively as possible....I posted as such several pages back. However.....why was this not an issue in the 1st game? Did BP NOT tap his bat in the 1st game? Were the quotes not there before the first game?

All I am seeing right now about this brawl....is Cueto kicking, Crissy being pushed against the fence......basically it is all the Reds fault right now.
The race for the central is over.....beacuse of this fight. The Reds need to win this game and go on a nice tear right now...as this will be the only thing that shuts everybody up.

bucksfan2
08-11-2010, 12:02 PM
LaRussa and Baker just can't get along can they? They have had these heated games for years when Baker managed the Giants and especially the Cubs.

I think Cueto was out of line kicking people. You have metal spikes on and you are kicking people? That's just can't happen.

In what I saw Cueto was up against the batting screen. I don't know what else you can do in that situation.

But that said, Cueto was STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID. Your the pitcher, you are not on the mound, you should be no where near the scrum. Johnny should have stayed on the outside and let his pitching do the talking.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 12:02 PM
I will say this though. I really do expect the Reds to take it to the field this afternoon. I know we have our Ace pitching against Arroryo, but I'm not expecting a win for the Cardinals today. The Reds have one last game to stick it to the Cardinals in this series, and I think they will show that they can compete. I bet Rolen and Edmonds have been doing a lot of rallying to get the team ready for this next game. The game today has to feel like a playoff game.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 12:05 PM
However.....why was this not an issue in the 1st game? Did BP NOT tap his bat in the 1st game? Were the quotes not there before the first game?

The Cardinals did not know about the comments until after the game on Monday. There was an article posted from yesterday that stated the Cards first heard about the comments after the game. One reporter told Skip Schumaker about the comments. His comments were something like "Did he really say that? I have to make sure he really said that before I comment". That is not verbatum, but he said something like that. lol

Hoosier Red
08-11-2010, 12:09 PM
But that said, Cueto was STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID. Your the pitcher, you are not on the mound, you should be no where near the scrum. Johnny should have stayed on the outside and let his pitching do the talking.

He was at the back corner of the "pile" and then the whole pile moved 20 yards back.

kaldaniels
08-11-2010, 12:16 PM
He was at the back corner of the "pile" and then the whole pile moved 20 yards back.

Watch the video again...he was pretty close to the action. When Dusty and Tony were jawing...he was way too close.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 12:17 PM
He was at the back corner of the "pile" and then the whole pile moved 20 yards back.

He could have stayed in the dugout... or hung out in the bullpen.. or even taken a nap in the clubhouse. :)

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 12:17 PM
After re-watching the fight, it was clear that the whole thing was going to be over, until Carpenter said SOMETHING to Dusty. Whatever that something was, it made all the players turn toward Carpenter, and the UMPIRE immediately turned and said something to Carp. This caused several Reds to start saying things to Carpenter, and that's when it got out of hand quickly. The fracas was OVER until whatever Carpenter said, and I'd pay anything to have heard whatever that whiny little you know what said.

Yep. Molina instigated the benches clearing and Carpenter escalated it.

Homer Bailey
08-11-2010, 12:18 PM
Well...most of my post was intended to be sarcastic. However, I do think if you are going to make a big deal about an excuse that Rasmus made, then Cueto's excuse should matter at least a little bit. Garcia didn't seem to be affected by it, and he is a rookie on the visiting team. Would Cueto have said that if his team had won?

I guess I missed the part where Garcia was backed up against the netting and the Reds backup catcher was charging him.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 12:19 PM
LaRussa and Baker just can't get along can they? They have had these heated games for years when Baker managed the Giants and especially the Cubs.

I think Cueto was out of line kicking people. You have metal spikes on and you are kicking people? That's just can't happen.

Cueto was backed into a corner. What did you expect him to do? Again, if Molina and Carpenter keep their mouths shut then none of this happens.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 12:22 PM
Imagine if the Cards lost that game and Garcia made the same comments that Cueto made. There would be threads started saying it just proves the Cardinals are crybabies because now their pitcher is making excuses for losing the game.

CrackerJack
08-11-2010, 12:22 PM
Talk about a horse being obliterated to death. I'd rather forget about the last two days.

bucksfan2
08-11-2010, 12:22 PM
Cueto was backed into a corner. What did you expect him to do? Again, if Molina and Carpenter keep their mouths shut then none of this happens.

I agree with this. I don't really blame Cueto for the way he acted when he was backed into the net. But I do blame Cueto for putting himself in that situation. There is no way he should have been anywhere near the scrum. Even if he was on the outside he should have enough sense to move away from the scrum as it moves.

Homer Bailey
08-11-2010, 12:23 PM
Imagine if the Cards lost that game and Garcia made the same comments that Cueto made. There would be threads started saying it just proves the Cardinals are crybabies because now their pitcher is making excuses for losing the game.

Maybe because the Cardinals have a history of being huge crybabies? And that is well known around the league?

Tony Cloninger
08-11-2010, 12:23 PM
You could have said that about Phillips as well OBM. He knew what he was doing....McCoy said Phillips stopped him to tell him this stuff (He was on ESPN this morning). The whole thing got out of hand and Crissy is more to blame than Molina...as I do not blame Molina for jawing with BP at ball.
Crissy is the issue here....and he should be called out for his actions.

I am also sorry about LaRue.....but he turned into a real D Bag himself 2 years ago with that garbage he pulled on JHJ..for no reason still to be xplained.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 12:26 PM
Cueto was backed into a corner. What did you expect him to do? Again, if Molina and Carpenter keep their mouths shut then none of this happens.

Ummmm...if Brandon Phillips keeps his mouth shut, none of this happens. :)

_Sir_Charles_
08-11-2010, 12:27 PM
Cueto was backed into a corner. What did you expect him to do? Again, if Molina and Carpenter keep their mouths shut then none of this happens.

And to be fair....if Phillips had kept HIS mouth shut, none of this happens either. Sorry, but this WHOLE THING is all on Brandon IMO. I don't disagree with what he said...I disagree with his thinking for saying it to a reporter. And again for tapping Molina at the start of the game. Totally Phillips.

CTA513
08-11-2010, 12:28 PM
Ummmm...if Brandon Phillips keeps his mouth shut, none of this happens. :)

He had to do it now that he has both OchoCinco and T.O. to compete with.


;)

WVRed
08-11-2010, 12:54 PM
Just trying to guess what you are thinking...is it skin color related?

Judging by the reaction of Baker and Rolen, that is my guess.

I hope i'm wrong.

ochre
08-11-2010, 12:59 PM
Imagine if the Cards lost that game and Garcia made the same comments that Cueto made. There would be threads started saying it just proves the Cardinals are crybabies because now their pitcher is making excuses for losing the game.
Only if he blamed it on the baseballs.

Patrick Bateman
08-11-2010, 01:01 PM
And to be fair....if Phillips had kept HIS mouth shut, none of this happens either. Sorry, but this WHOLE THING is all on Brandon IMO. I don't disagree with what he said...I disagree with his thinking for saying it to a reporter. And again for tapping Molina at the start of the game. Totally Phillips.

It's ridiculous to blame something on an individual when its based on a culmination of prior events. Phillips' comment was perhaps just the straw that broke the camel's back. And Phillips tapping Molina is nothing more than a routine, something I'm sure he's done to Molina a thousand times without a problem.

It always takes two to tango.

Homer Bailey
08-11-2010, 01:03 PM
The more I think about it, the more I wonder what Carpenter said that got Baker (and for that matter, a former Cardinal trying to play peacemaker in Rolen) so fired up.

I've got my suspicions, but it may have been something that might alienate people in his own clubhouse. Any takers?

We would have definitely heard about that by now if that was the case.

mdccclxix
08-11-2010, 01:03 PM
It's ridiculous to blame something on an individual when its based on a culmination of prior events. Phillips' comment was perhaps just the straw that broke the camel's back. And Phillips tapping Molina is nothing more than a routine, something I'm sure he's done to Molina a thousand times without a problem.

It always takes two to tango.

Molina KICKS the first tap away like a baby, so Phillips tapped again. :)

Roy Tucker
08-11-2010, 01:12 PM
Molina KICKS the first tap away like a baby, so Phillips tapped again. :)

Makes me think Molina knew Phillips was going to do this and he had his mind made up how he was going to respond.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 01:14 PM
It's ridiculous to blame something on an individual when its based on a culmination of prior events. Phillips' comment was perhaps just the straw that broke the camel's back. And Phillips tapping Molina is nothing more than a routine, something I'm sure he's done to Molina a thousand times without a problem.

It always takes two to tango.

Right... how dare Molina be upset at the comments that Phillips made. He should just suck it up...know his role... be a baby and back down. Let BP say whatever he wants....just let Brandon be Brandon. If anyone has a problem with that, then that's their fault...right?

Homer Bailey
08-11-2010, 01:19 PM
Right... how dare Molina be upset at the comments that Phillips made. He should just suck it up...know his role... be a baby and back down. Let BP say whatever he wants....just let Brandon be Brandon. If anyone has a problem with that, then that's their fault...right?

Or just do the talking on the field? Phillips made his comments off the field. Not affecting the game. Phillips didn't say anything to anyone. MOLINA was the one that confronted him verbally and physically on the field of play, and caused the fracas.

But you're right, I wouldn't expect a Cardinal to handle this situation with maturity.

reds44
08-11-2010, 01:20 PM
As I said earlier and others have said the last few pages, the Cardinals did exactly what Phillips said they do. He made his point for him.

Don't let all this overlook the fact that Phillips was DEAD ON with his comments, and between Carpenter crying about Ryan, Molina crying about Phillips, and then half the Cardinals crying about, it's even made his point more.

They are what they are. A bunch of you know what's who are good at baseball.

jojo
08-11-2010, 01:22 PM
As I said earlier and others have said the last few pages, the Cardinals did exactly what Phillips said they do. He made his point for him.

Don't let all this overlook the fact that Phillips was DEAD ON with his comments, and between Carpenter crying about Ryan, Molina crying about Phillips, and then half the Cardinals crying about, it's even made his point more.

They are what they are. A bunch of you know what's who are good at baseball.

At what point does complaining about crybabies who keep beating you start to reflect poorly on you?

Why not just shut up, beat them, and give them something to cry about?

reds44
08-11-2010, 01:24 PM
At what point does complaining about crybabies who keep beating you start to reflect poorly on you?

Why not just shut up, beat them, and give them something to cry about?
Are you talking about me or are you talking about Phillips? Phillips made one quote about them. That's all. It's not like he constantly cries about it like the Cardinals do everything.

reds44
08-11-2010, 01:26 PM
Right... how dare Molina be upset at the comments that Phillips made. He should just suck it up...know his role... be a baby and back down. Let BP say whatever he wants....just let Brandon be Brandon. If anyone has a problem with that, then that's their fault...right?
Boy this is some real middle school stuff right here. Somebody says something about you so you get pick a fight?

jojo
08-11-2010, 01:28 PM
Are you talking about me or are you talking about Phillips? Phillips made one quote about them. That's all. It's not like he constantly cries about it like the Cardinals do everything.

Phillips and its a little more than one quote after last night.

The Voice of IH
08-11-2010, 01:30 PM
Phillips and its a little more than one quote after last night.

now it is, because Molina can not be mature and say hi.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 01:30 PM
Boy this is some real middle school stuff right here. Somebody says something about you so you get pick a fight?

Right...what Phillips said was so mature. He needs to listen to Rolen and beat the Cardinals on the field.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 01:31 PM
now it is, because Molina can not be mature and say hi.

Right...Phillips has no blame in any of this. It's everybody eles's fault.

nate
08-11-2010, 01:34 PM
Right...Phillips has no blame in any of this. It's everybody eles's fault.

Phillips is to blame as is Molina.

Phillips should've shut up and Molina should've shut up.

bucksfan2
08-11-2010, 01:34 PM
At what point does complaining about crybabies who keep beating you start to reflect poorly on you?

Why not just shut up, beat them, and give them something to cry about?

I am getting tired of this. I am getting tired of "all the Cards do is whine". I am tired of "Colby Rasmus is a punk" or "Chris Carpenter is a jerk". Fact of the matter is the Cards whined their way to two straight wins and now are currently tied with the Reds in first place.

I have no issue with what BP said. I like that fire. I like that he doesn't like his rival this season. But it says more to me when you win the game as opposed to losing.

blumj
08-11-2010, 01:35 PM
Eh, players will look for excuses to start fights when they want to fight because they are mostly oversized children, sometimes not unlike fans who kind of enjoy watching them fight for the same reason. All the ex-players sound a little too nostalgic talking about their old playing/brawling days on tv and radio today.

Patrick Bateman
08-11-2010, 01:36 PM
Right... how dare Molina be upset at the comments that Phillips made. He should just suck it up...know his role... be a baby and back down. Let BP say whatever he wants....just let Brandon be Brandon. If anyone has a problem with that, then that's their fault...right?

You really need to stop making posts like this. Don't take your interpretation of my post and act like that is what I actually believe.

I actually have difficulty comprehending how you think that's what I said.

_Sir_Charles_
08-11-2010, 01:38 PM
It's ridiculous to blame something on an individual when its based on a culmination of prior events. Phillips' comment was perhaps just the straw that broke the camel's back. And Phillips tapping Molina is nothing more than a routine, something I'm sure he's done to Molina a thousand times without a problem.

It always takes two to tango.

While true, the entire equation changed once Brandon made his remarks. Now, once the brewhaha got started...yeah, both teams were at fault. But I still think that the ultimate blame has to rest squarely on Brandon's shoulders. Had he not made the comment...none of this would've followed. It still would've been an intense game...but not that.

_Sir_Charles_
08-11-2010, 01:44 PM
Or just do the talking on the field? Phillips made his comments off the field. Not affecting the game. Phillips didn't say anything to anyone. MOLINA was the one that confronted him verbally and physically on the field of play, and caused the fracas.

But you're right, I wouldn't expect a Cardinal to handle this situation with maturity.

Oh, come on Homer. Seriously? On the field or off the field, the comments were personal. And while Molina DID begin the "conversation", Phillips set it off intentionally by doing the shin-guard tap....TWICE by the way. IMO, Molina DID respond maturely...by standing up for himself when he thought he was being insulted and subsequently shown up on the playing field. I like Brandon, and I agree with his thoughts on the "Cardinal Way" the past few years, but Phillips handled the whole thing incorrectly from the get go.

As for Phillips not saying anything to anyone...we don't know that. Nobody here knows if Brandon said anything prior to Molina getting up in his face.

mdccclxix
08-11-2010, 01:49 PM
How about the managers? The whole thing could have died down if those two weren't jawing at their first opportunity. I think the eventual serious scrum came after Carpenter pointed and yelled at Dusty Baker.

RichRed
08-11-2010, 01:50 PM
Eh, players will look for excuses to start fights when they want to fight because they are mostly oversized children, sometimes not unlike fans who kind of enjoy watching them fight for the same reason. All the ex-players sound a little too nostalgic talking about their old playing/brawling days on tv and radio today.

Lot of truth here.

fearofpopvol1
08-11-2010, 01:54 PM
Right...what Phillips said was so mature. He needs to listen to Rolen and beat the Cardinals on the field.

The problem with your post(s) is that you think just like the Cardinals. And that thought is that the Cardinals did NOTHING wrong here. They were just innocent bystanders who did absolutely nothing wrong. Carpenter and La Russa both said as much as did Molina after the game. You are taking the same position as them and it's just simply a load of crap.

Are the Reds players innocent? No. Do they maybe even deserve more blame than Cards players? I think you could make a good case for that. But the Cards are at fault too...it's undeniable.

WMR
08-11-2010, 02:06 PM
I think Brandon was looking for a confrontation. Does he really think Yadi wants him touching his shinguards after he just called he and his teammates some not very nice words in the media?

It did seem to be pretty much diffused until Diva Carpenter had to throw his two cents in.

WVRed
08-11-2010, 03:46 PM
We would have definitely heard about that by now if that was the case.

Possibly, but we have yet to hear anything regarding what happened.

It's the only thing I can think of that would have 1. Set Dusty off and 2. Set off Rolen who is a former Cardinal.

RichRed
08-11-2010, 04:01 PM
Possibly, but we have yet to hear anything regarding what happened.

It's the only thing I can think of that would have 1. Set Dusty off and 2. Set off Rolen who is a former Cardinal.

I don't know, if Carpenter's as big a jerk as he seems to be, maybe Rolen's been itching for any reason to take a shot at him.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 04:12 PM
Ummmm...if Brandon Phillips keeps his mouth shut, none of this happens. :)

And if Carpenter, LaRussa, and Duncan hadn't complained about the baseballs and accused Arroyo of cheating then none of this happens. Or if Rasmus hadn't disrepsected Arroyo a few months ago none of this happens.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 04:14 PM
The problem with your post(s) is that you think just like the Cardinals. And that thought is that the Cardinals did NOTHING wrong here. They were just innocent bystanders who did absolutely nothing wrong. Carpenter and La Russa both said as much as did Molina after the game. You are taking the same position as them and it's just simply a load of crap.


Quoted for truth.

Redmachine2003
08-11-2010, 04:20 PM
Just embarrassing BP talks crap and they come in to our house try and start a fight and still kick our butts on the field and to add insult to injury our ace of the staff may be looking at a suspension. This team laid down like whipped pups and let the whining bullies just walk all over them. He the Reds didn't even get to keep their lunch money.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 04:48 PM
The problem with your post(s) is that you think just like the Cardinals. And that thought is that the Cardinals did NOTHING wrong here. They were just innocent bystanders who did absolutely nothing wrong. Carpenter and La Russa both said as much as did Molina after the game.

Well..not exactly! I think a few of the Cardinals players could have had cooler heads. I sure don't think that a comment that Rasmus made awhile ago about Arroyo throwing slop were a good reason for Phillips to make the comments that he made. When you make perosnal insults like that... human beings are going to get upset and take it personal. Do I think Yadi or anyone else on the Cardinals intended for the game ot go down like it did...nope. In the heat of the battle, they let their emotions get out of hand. Does that make it right...nope. This all would have been avoided though if BP didn't make the comments that he did.

nate
08-11-2010, 04:50 PM
Well..not exactly! I think a few of the Cardinals players could have had cooler heads. I sure don't think that a comment that Rasmus made awhile ago about Arroyo throwing slop were a good reason for Phillips to make the comments that he made. When you make perosnal insults like that... human beings are going to get upset and take it personal. Do I think Yadi or anyone else on the Cardinals intended for the game ot go down like it did...nope. In the heat of the battle, they let their emotions get out of hand. Does that make it right...nope. This all would have been avoided though if BP didn't make the comments that he did.

And if Molina hadn't felt the need to fight immaturity with immaturity.

Reds Fanatic
08-11-2010, 04:55 PM
This is from Fay's blog:


Here’s what I think got the worst part of the brawl going: Scott Rolen had ahold of Chris Carpenter, essentially protecting him. The two are friends. Then Carpenter said something very pointed to Dusty Baker.

Things quickly changed. What Baker and Rolen said supports this. Rolen referred to protecting players and managers. Baker said: You can’t go on what you see.


http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/11/a-theory-and-what-got-it-really-going/

It will be interesting to see how Carpenter gets treated in all this. Because while Cueto is the most likely to be suspended for the kicking that whole fight last night was calmed down and would not have been much until whatever Carpenter said to Dusty really put the worst part into motion. The Cards can act all innocent but it was over until Carpenter in his typical fashion started in.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 04:56 PM
And if Molina hadn't felt the need to fight immaturity with immaturity.

Right

nate
08-11-2010, 04:57 PM
So what did Carpenter say?

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 04:58 PM
This all would have been avoided though if BP didn't make the comments that he did.

Or if the Cardinals didn't whine about the baseballs and accuse Bronson Arroyo of cheating.

westofyou
08-11-2010, 05:07 PM
Or if the Cardinals didn't whine about the baseballs and accuse Bronson Arroyo of cheating.

Grown men, they are grown men... if words are that sharp and stick that hard I suggest they get another line of business.

I(heart)Freel
08-11-2010, 05:07 PM
Oh, come on Homer. Seriously? On the field or off the field, the comments were personal. And while Molina DID begin the "conversation", Phillips set it off intentionally by doing the shin-guard tap....TWICE by the way. IMO, Molina DID respond maturely...by standing up for himself when he thought he was being insulted and subsequently shown up on the playing field. I like Brandon, and I agree with his thoughts on the "Cardinal Way" the past few years, but Phillips handled the whole thing incorrectly from the get go.

As for Phillips not saying anything to anyone...we don't know that. Nobody here knows if Brandon said anything prior to Molina getting up in his face.

Having a hard time buying that Molina is a "mature" player in all of this. Post game comments. Kicking the bat tap. And then, icing on the cake, mocking BPhil's homerun trot?

Dude is a manchild. "If you say bad stuff about me, don't say hi to me."

Sorry... not buying the Molina mature card.

Brutus
08-11-2010, 05:08 PM
This all would have been avoided though if BP didn't make the comments that he did.

Yadi had just as much to do with this as anyone. So Yadi was forced to provoke a confrontation because BP made those comments? That's pretty weak.

What about the comments about the baseballs the Cardinals have made? Or Arroyo cheating? Or Arroyo having doo-doo. Or how about Carlos Lee posturing? Should he also have forced a confrontation?

The Cardinals have been yapping their traps for a few years. Finally someone calls them on it, provoking the Cardinals to make this physical, and it would have been avoided if BP had kept his mouth shut? That's pretty rich.

oneupper
08-11-2010, 06:57 PM
Cardinals whine because it works. It gets them calls from the umps and it will get them a better deal when the suspensions come down on this brouhaha.

"El que no llora no mama" (The baby that doesn't whine doesn't suck - literally).

Always Red
08-11-2010, 07:23 PM
Cardinals whine because it works. It gets them calls from the umps and it will get them a better deal when the suspensions come down on this brouhaha.

"El que no llora no mama" (The baby that doesn't whine doesn't suck - literally).

They are simply a reflection of their manager, as are most teams with the same long term guy in place.

dsmith421
08-11-2010, 07:30 PM
They are simply a reflection of their manager, as are most teams with the same long term guy in place.

And their manager is the most despicable person in baseball. Hide your boxes, Tony's in town!

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 07:34 PM
And their manager is the most despicable person in baseball.

Now you are starting to sound like a Cardinals fan. :eek:

Always Red
08-11-2010, 07:46 PM
And their manager is the most despicable person in baseball. Hide your boxes, Tony's in town!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8oBhfPjDGbQ/TDLcxb_knXI/AAAAAAAAAC0/rpyNtZOjn9k/s1600/tony-larussa-animals.jpg



Even Cardinal fans hate him- this is very funny: YouTube - &#x202a;Tony LaRussa St Louis Cardinals Song&#x202c;&lrm; (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GzYofZQ-b4&feature=player_embedded)

jojo
08-11-2010, 07:49 PM
Well take a day off then take it to the Marlins.....

blumj
08-11-2010, 07:55 PM
Grown men, they are grown men... if words are that sharp and stick that hard I suggest they get another line of business.
No, they're not really grown men, they're professional athletes. It's okay, though, sports is the toy department, so we don't all act like adults, either, when it comes to how we are as fans of them.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 07:59 PM
Even Cardinal fans hate him-

Yeah...a lot of Cardinals fan hate LaRussa, and have since he first became manager of the Cards.

GAC
08-11-2010, 08:11 PM
if Molina and Carpenter keep their mouths shut then none of this happens.

None of it would have happened if a certain 2Bman had kept his mouth shut. You're getting ready to enter a very key series with the division rival you're battling for 1st place, and you get them all fired up by saying the crap he did? It was moronic and selfish IMO.

I don't care if Carpenter is a manic-depressive bipolar A-HOLE, or any other Card player has trash talked our team. So what? That's their problem. And because of it, doesn't Carpenter get the deservedly bad rep around the league that goes with such behavior?

I want better for my team. You're no better then some of their players are when you decide to lower yourself and play their game. Take the high road. You know.... "sticks and stones".

So the Cards now leave town having swept our butts and taken over 1st place. No, it's not the end, nor time to panic. But it certainly makes the Reds look silly thanks to Phillip's comments. I certainly think a team meeting is in order where they refocus, put this think behind them, and get back to do what they've been doing all season.... competing and winning.

And I certainly hope BIG MOUTH Phillips learns from this too. Think it. Just don't publicize it. Use your head man!

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 08:17 PM
None of it would have happened if a certain 2Bman had kept his mouth shut. You're getting ready to enter a very key series with the division rival you're battling for 1st place, and you get them all fired up by saying the crap he did? It was moronic and selfish IMO.


The Cardinals didn't even hear about Phillips' comments until after the first game of the series was over. His comments had nothing to do with how the Cardinals played the last couple days. I think the Reds losing had more to do with the Cardinals rinky-dink ground balls finding holes, the Reds many defensive miscues, and lack of offense than it did Phillips' comments. Phillips could have come out and said the Cardinals were the greatest thing since sliced bread and I don't think it would have made a difference in the outcome.

CTA513
08-11-2010, 08:19 PM
Have any pictures of LaRues face or Carpenters back shown up online yet?

Slyder
08-11-2010, 08:30 PM
Have any pictures of LaRues face or Carpenters back shown up online yet?

Wouldnt be surprised if Crissy doctored up a torn jersey to say "see, See, he kicked me in the back."

LaRue would be able to be determined medically even if the kicks didnt leave any facial wounds.

GAC
08-11-2010, 08:35 PM
Boy this is some real middle school stuff right here. Somebody says something about you so you get pick a fight?

Do you ever think before you post stuff like this? This is hilarious! :lol:

I've listened to numerous posters, for days prior to that brawl last night, wanting our team to start a fight with Cards, make a stand, set the tone, because "somebody says something" (previous Card player comments), or they are simply upset because the Cards beat us more then we beat them. They're fed up and action must be taken.

So do you think after BP's statement, and especially that brawl last night, that the Cardinals now respect us?

They are flying back to St Louis, after having swept us, celebrating and laughing their butts off. Yeah, we really showed them.

jojo
08-11-2010, 08:48 PM
The Cardinals didn't even hear about Phillips' comments until after the first game of the series was over. His comments had nothing to do with how the Cardinals played the last couple days. I think the Reds losing had more to do with the Cardinals rinky-dink ground balls finding holes, the Reds many defensive miscues, and lack of offense than it did Phillips' comments. Phillips could have come out and said the Cardinals were the greatest thing since sliced bread and I don't think it would have made a difference in the outcome.

An objective viewer watching the video and knowing the media picked up on Phillips' comments from the night before could reasonably interpret the scenario as Phillips walking up to the plate with a chip on his shoulders posturing. Certainly a reasonable person would wonder why Phillips touched Molina with his bat. Did it hurt? no. But it certainly wasn't an accident and a reasonable person could interpret it as antagonistic.

Likewise a reasonable person could view Cueto from the angle over his right shoulder an conclude that Cueto was kicking with the intent of using his spikes as a weapon.

Does any of this erase past events? No. But I think one needs blinders on to argue that Phillips didn't instigate things by his comments the previous night and his intentional behavior to start the PA. Phillips was in essence smoking near gasoline. he may not have meant to cause an explosion but he certainly isn't blameless.

Did Molina have to react the way he did? Of course not. But a reasonable person might conclude his reaction was entirely predictable based upon the actions of Phillips.

I'm worried the Reds are going to take the brunt of the punishment and frankly, they don't have a margin of error big enough to withstand losing a couple of starters for significant time over this kind of silly BS.

HokieRed
08-11-2010, 08:48 PM
Agree, GAC. Seems to me entirely possible the distractions didn't do us any good.

GAC
08-11-2010, 08:52 PM
The Cardinals didn't even hear about Phillips' comments until after the first game of the series was over.

He doesn't make the comments and there is no brawl last night.

Jpup
08-11-2010, 08:55 PM
I have to think that Brandon Phillips will be on his way out of town soon. He's the same kid he has always been. He started the mess last night by tapping Molina. He had to know what was going to happen. Cueto is one of my favorites but he should be suspended. Jason LaRue and Chris Carpenter should go with him.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 08:55 PM
An objective viewer watching the video and knowing the media picked up on Phillips' comments from the night before could reasonably interpret the scenario as Phillips walking up to the plate with a chip on his shoulders posturing. Certainly a reasonable person would wonder why Phillips touched Molina with his bat. Did it hurt? no. But it certainly wasn't an accident and a reasonable person could interpret it as antagonistic.

Phillips always taps the umpire and catcher on the shin guards before his first atbat.


Likewise a reasonable person could view Cueto from the angle over his right shoulder an conclude that Cueto was kicking with the intent of using his spikes as a weapon.


So you think Cueto should have just laid there and allowed the Cardinals to pile on him and not defend himself? Wow. Cueto did absolutely nothing wrong. He's got to protect himself from danger. He did the only thing he could do. If I have 15-20 people piling on me, I guarantee you I would be kicking my way out too.

The Reds are getting the blame for everything. Last time I checked, Molina started the argument and then Carpenter escalated it when things had cooled down. Carpenter should get the longest suspension of anyone.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 08:56 PM
He doesn't make the comments and there is no brawl last night.

And if the Cardinals don't complain about the baseballs and accuse Arroyo of cheating then Phillips doesn't make those comments and there's no brawl last night.

jojo
08-11-2010, 09:01 PM
Phillips always taps the umpire and catcher on the shin guards before his first atbat.

His body language was not casual. Again, a reasonable person can easily see what he did last night as aggressive.


So you think Cueto should have just laid there and allowed the Cardinals to pile on him and not defend himself? Wow. Cueto did absolutely nothing wrong. He's got to protect himself from danger. He did the right thing. If I have 15-20 people piling on me, I guarantee you I would be kicking my way out too.

I didn't argue that. but clearly it is never appropriate to purposefully spike players. If he had connected, he would be gone for the year. Seriously. Defend Ceuto if one must, but he is so lucky right now that it isn't funny. Some perspective definitely needs to color this thread.


The Reds are getting the blame for everything. Last time I checked, Molina started the argument and then Carpenter escalated it when things had cooled down. Carpenter should get the longest suspension of anyone.

One really needs to put themselves in the shoes of a fan with no rooting interest in either side sometimes....

I think the Cards have some fans seeing Red and it's coloring their perceptions....

westofyou
08-11-2010, 09:02 PM
And if the Cardinals don't complain about the baseballs and accuse Arroyo of cheating then Phillips doesn't make those comments and there's no brawl last night.

Sometimes and somewhere, someone has to be the bigger person.

So far no one is reaching for the golden ring on this carousel.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 09:06 PM
I didn't argue that. but clearly it is never appropriate to purposefully spike players. If he had connected, he would be gone for the year. Seriously. Defend Ceuto if one must, but he is so lucky right now that it isn't funny. Some perspective definitely needs to color this thread.


You are right, Cueto is very lucky. Very lucky that he wasn't injured in that melee. He could have easily injured his arm or back or something else. Thank goodness he was able to defend himself and get out of there before an injury occurred.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 09:13 PM
Sometimes and somewhere, someone has to be the bigger person.

So far no one is reaching for the golden ring on this carousel.

I agree. The Reds are far from innocent in this incident. Even though I agreed with everything Phillips said, deep down I wish he hadn't made those comments to the press. At the same time, the Cardinals had no business accusing Arroyo of cheating or accusing the Reds of screwing with the baseballs, not once but twice. Both teams are guility.

Cedric
08-11-2010, 09:26 PM
The off day tomorrow is perfect. I'm not that distressed at all about this week. It looks worse in the ego category than anything else.

I didn't expect the Reds to win more than one game this series. With Leake going I knew that game was over before it started. There is plenty of time for this thing to turn around.

HokieRed
08-11-2010, 09:29 PM
Sometimes and somewhere, someone has to be the bigger person.

So far no one is reaching for the golden ring on this carousel.

Agree. And also the bigger player. This stuff is nothing but distraction and mind games. Got to rise above it.

kbrake
08-11-2010, 09:31 PM
The only problem I have with anything BP did was tapping Yadi last night. If he had only done it once ok stupid idea but whatever. To go and do it a 2nd time BP was looking for a confrontation. Doesn't mean it had to turn into what it did and that is ALL on Carpenter. I don't care what happened before that point. Chris Carpenter escalated that last night because he is a jack wagon.

As far as what BP actually said I don't know maybe its a generational difference on Redszone that even allows this to be debated.

TheNext44
08-11-2010, 09:33 PM
His body language was not casual. Again, a reasonable person can easily see what he did last night as aggressive

His body language was very casual, and very playful. Watch the video. It even was playful after Molina smacked his bat away in a very aggressive jerk like move.

This was all Molina, even my Cardinal friends back in St. Louis agree with me on that. He tried to start something. No matter what Phillips did, Molina was going to start something. I'm a teacher. I see this everyday. Molina wanted to start a fight, and no matter what Phillips did, a fight was going to happen.

Again, watch the video, it's clear as day.

You can blame Phillips for starting it all with his dumb comments, but on Tuesday night, the fight was started by Molina.

Cueto on the other hand... No excuse for kicking in a crowd. None. I could care less what his reasons where, he had other, better options. He deserves whatever he gets.

Cedric
08-11-2010, 09:37 PM
His body language was very casual, and very playful. Watch the video. It even was playful after Molina smacked his bat away in a very aggressive jerk like move.

This was all Molina, even my Cardinal friends back in St. Louis agree with me on that. He tried to start something. No matter what Phillips did, Molina was going to start something. I'm a teacher. I see this everyday. Molina wanted to start a fight, and no matter what Phillips did, a fight was going to happen.

Again, watch the video, it's clear as day.

You can blame Phillips for starting it all with his dumb comments, but on Tuesday night, the fight was started by Molina.

Cueto on the other hand... No excuse for kicking in a crowd. None. I could care less what his reasons where, he had other, better options. He deserves whatever he gets.

It's not everyday you are smashed against a wall with 15-20 huge men about to smash you. People act like they would just sit there and get crushed to death. He obviously felt that was the best way to help himself. Do you really think he randomly decided to start hurting people at that point in the brawl? I don't.

mdccclxix
08-11-2010, 09:38 PM
It's not everyday you are smashed against a wall with 15-20 huge men about to smash you. People act like they would just sit there and get crushed to death. He obviously felt that was the best way to help himself. Do you really think he randomly decided to start hurting people at that point in the brawl? I don't.

Larue was also getting ready to lunge after Cueto, so further reason to defend yourself.

jojo
08-11-2010, 09:44 PM
His body language was very casual, and very playful. Watch the video. It even was playful after Molina smacked his bat away in a very aggressive jerk like move.

This was all Molina, even my Cardinal friends back in St. Louis agree with me on that. He tried to start something. No matter what Phillips did, Molina was going to start something. I'm a teacher. I see this everyday. Molina wanted to start a fight, and no matter what Phillips did, a fight was going to happen.

Again, watch the video, it's clear as day.

You can blame Phillips for starting it all with his dumb comments, but on Tuesday night, the fight was started by Molina.

Cueto on the other hand... No excuse for kicking in a crowd. None. I could care less what his reasons where, he had other, better options. He deserves whatever he gets.

I think the one thing that is clear about 90% of this thread is that most posts aren't really about last night....

Redmachine2003
08-11-2010, 10:29 PM
Do you ever think before you post stuff like this? This is hilarious! :lol:

I've listened to numerous posters, for days prior to that brawl last night, wanting our team to start a fight with Cards, make a stand, set the tone, because "somebody says something" (previous Card player comments), or they are simply upset because the Cards beat us more then we beat them. They're fed up and action must be taken.

So do you think after BP's statement, and especially that brawl last night, that the Cardinals now respect us?

They are flying back to St Louis, after having swept us, celebrating and laughing their butts off. Yeah, we really showed them.
The Sad part is the Reds didn't do any of that it was the Cards who stepped up and started the confrontation and set the tone and the Reds just took it. The way this all went down just showed me the Reds are ready to be the leaders of their division and are not the team to ready to do what ever it takes to Win or get fired up. The Reds let them come in to their house and Whip them on and off the field and the Reds looked powerless to stop them.

backbencher
08-11-2010, 10:30 PM
OK, I feel like weighing in.

The fight itself:

1. I saw three instigators: Molina, Carpenter and Larue. Baker and Larussa had significant roles.

2. Phillips' bat-tap was in no way instigation. He did his tap thing, then he turned around and took his practice swings. He was in no way trying to start something. Heck, not even Molina said Phillips was at fault.

3. Molina clearly intended to provoke a fight. He was ready for the bat tap, he reacted (the push), and when Phillips did not counter-react, Molina escalated by standing and yelling. Molina wanted to stake out his turf and he did so.

4. Carpenter clearly triggered the second, big wave. He said something that Baker AND the umpire AND Rolen AND his own teammates found out of bounds, to the point that both Rolen and two Cardinals thought it necessary to get Carpenter out of the fray immediately.

5. Larue plainly was charging Cueto with hostile intent. I didn't see what Larue did to make Hernandez restrain him so aggressively, but while Hernandez was trying to restrain him, Larue went directly after Cueto. I'd like to feel bad about him getting kicked in the face, but he was charging in to the kick.

6. Phillips should have baited Molina rather than standing up to him. Made Molina continue to come out of the box. Phillips had no business jawing with Molina once Molina was up.

7. Cueto massively overreacted. He was in a position of danger, and we can allow for some panic, perhaps even the first kick or two to Larue, but he kept on kicking after Larue was out of range.

8. Rolen carries massive credibility with all of the players. Pretty amazing to see, actually.

9. My assessment would be one-game suspension for Molina (symbolic, for instigating); five games (one start) for Carpenter, depending on what he said; five games for Larue, for charging; ten games for Cueto (two starts) for kicking; and three games for each manager, for the general unseemliness of the managers yelling at each other. Rolen gets a pass based largely on Carpenter's comments that he thought Rolen was protecting him, not attacking him.


What it means:

The Reds aren't ready for primetime. They know how to talk like they are on the top, but they do not know how to conduct themselves as winners.

Phillips lights a match (the quote) but then does not know how to turn it into a productive fire. Phillips also focuses the attention on himself, taking it away from the team.

Molina has "been there" in the best possible sense. While Molina was the instigator, he did it right -- he used Phillips' insecurity against him.

Carpenter is a jerk.

Larue acted like a linebacker whose team has just made an interception-- he goes for the equivalent of the other team's QB. Not necessarily honorable, but smart.

TheNext44
08-11-2010, 11:07 PM
OK, I feel like weighing in.

The fight itself:

1. I saw three instigators: Molina, Carpenter and Larue. Baker and Larussa had significant roles.

2. Phillips' bat-tap was in no way instigation. He did his tap thing, then he turned around and took his practice swings. He was in no way trying to start something. Heck, not even Molina said Phillips was at fault.

3. Molina clearly intended to provoke a fight. He was ready for the bat tap, he reacted (the push), and when Phillips did not counter-react, Molina escalated by standing and yelling. Molina wanted to stake out his turf and he did so.

4. Carpenter clearly triggered the second, big wave. He said something that Baker AND the umpire AND Rolen AND his own teammates found out of bounds, to the point that both Rolen and two Cardinals thought it necessary to get Carpenter out of the fray immediately.

5. Larue plainly was charging Cueto with hostile intent. I didn't see what Larue did to make Hernandez restrain him so aggressively, but while Hernandez was trying to restrain him, Larue went directly after Cueto. I'd like to feel bad about him getting kicked in the face, but he was charging in to the kick.

6. Phillips should have baited Molina rather than standing up to him. Made Molina continue to come out of the box. Phillips had no business jawing with Molina once Molina was up.

7. Cueto massively overreacted. He was in a position of danger, and we can allow for some panic, perhaps even the first kick or two to Larue, but he kept on kicking after Larue was out of range.

8. Rolen carries massive credibility with all of the players. Pretty amazing to see, actually.

9. My assessment would be one-game suspension for Molina (symbolic, for instigating); five games (one start) for Carpenter, depending on what he said; five games for Larue, for charging; ten games for Cueto (two starts) for kicking; and three games for each manager, for the general unseemliness of the managers yelling at each other. Rolen gets a pass based largely on Carpenter's comments that he thought Rolen was protecting him, not attacking him.


What it means:

The Reds aren't ready for primetime. They know how to talk like they are on the top, but they do not know how to conduct themselves as winners.

Phillips lights a match (the quote) but then does not know how to turn it into a productive fire. Phillips also focuses the attention on himself, taking it away from the team.

Molina has "been there" in the best possible sense. While Molina was the instigator, he did it right -- he used Phillips' insecurity against him.

Carpenter is a jerk.

Larue acted like a linebacker whose team has just made an interception-- he goes for the equivalent of the other team's QB. Not necessarily honorable, but smart.

Nail meet Head.


Well done sir, on all accounts.

:beerme:

kbrake
08-11-2010, 11:14 PM
Great post backbencher.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 11:39 PM
And if the Cardinals don't complain about the baseballs and accuse Arroyo of cheating then Phillips doesn't make those comments and there's no brawl last night.

Did Arroyo cheat?

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 11:40 PM
Did Arroyo cheat?

Nope.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 11:40 PM
Nope.

How do you know for sure that he didn't?