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Brutus
08-10-2010, 11:12 PM
Saw this one coming a mile away. Oh I'm not talking about the Reds losing at least two this series (though I stated Monday afternoon I fully expected it).

But if I didn't know any better, I'd say the sky is falling. The team is imploding. Impending doom is near.

Just for the record, with still 48 games left after tonight, I'm not pressing any panic buttons. Even if the Cardinals walk away from Cincinnati up by a game, I still believe their lack of ability to beat the teams they need to beat (i.e. the bad ones) will do them in. And this series aside, the Reds are better 1-25 in my honest opinion.

I think emotions/expectations were unrealistically high for this series, and probably out of alignment with reality--as far as the importance of the series. It was important, but as I said Monday, I don't think it was important enough to rest ones emotions on.

If the Reds lose by a few games at the end, perhaps this series will sting a bit more. But it still wouldn't address the other 150 (ish) games the Reds played where there were any number of opportunities.

I'm over this one, already. Heck, I expected the Cards to win at least two and possibly three. Hopefully the Reds salvage game 3, but if they don't, 1 game out isn't so bad.

Blitz Dorsey
08-10-2010, 11:18 PM
The Reds are going to win the NL Central. I don't care what has happened the last two nights, the Cards ain't all that. All of the Debbie Downers need to start taking optimism pills.

"Yeah, that steak might taste good, but you know there's a 3.4 percent chance you could get e-coli poisoning from it, right?"

REDblooded
08-10-2010, 11:18 PM
Depends on what you expect... Do I expect the Cards to win a series vs. the Reds when their rotation is stacked right? Darned right I do...

Do I expect any team in baseball, in a playoff style format to beat the Reds in a series if they have 3 great starters? Darned right I do...

Do I expect the Cards to continue to lose to teams they should beat, while the Reds consistently beat the teams they should beat? Darned right I do...

edabbs44
08-10-2010, 11:19 PM
I'm happy that Arroyo is throwing tomorrow...he's the one guy who wouldn't be phased by this series.

Blitz Dorsey
08-10-2010, 11:20 PM
I'm happy that Arroyo is throwing tomorrow...he's the one guy who wouldn't be phased by this series.

But it's a day game! (Oh, he has kind of gotten over that this year.)

Brutus
08-10-2010, 11:20 PM
Depends on what you expect... Do I expect the Cards to win a series vs. the Reds when their rotation is stacked right? Darned right I do...

Do I expect any team in baseball, in a playoff style format to beat the Reds in a series if they have 3 great starters? Darned right I do...

Do I expect the Cards to continue to lose to teams they should beat, while the Reds consistently beat the teams they should beat? Darned right I do...

The good news is that no other team in baseball (sans the Phillies) can run out there a quality 3-man rotation like the one St. Louis can pump out. So even looking down the stretch, possibly to the playoffs, I am not terribly concerned by that.

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2010, 11:22 PM
Deep down, I thought the Cardinals would take two of three, and possibly sweep. Tonight was the one game I thought we had a chance to win. Eve though I braced myself for a sweep, it still sucks to see the Reds continually play awful against the Cardinals. The Reds are the better team, IMO. I truly believe that. I'll take our 25 man roster over the Cardinals.

REDblooded
08-10-2010, 11:24 PM
Deep down, I thought the Cardinals would take two of three, and possibly sweep. Tonight was the one game I thought we had a chance to win. Eve though I braced myself for a sweep, it still sucks to see the Reds continually play awful against the Cardinals. The Reds are the better team, IMO. I truly believe that. I'll take our 25 man roster over the Cardinals.

I agree... And I'll DEFINITELY take our expanded roster over theirs...

Joseph
08-10-2010, 11:24 PM
You sound like one of those folks who is just happy to compete.

;)

REDblooded
08-10-2010, 11:27 PM
You sound like one of those folks who is just happy to compete.

;)


Haha... Caught the sarcasm, but not at all... I think that's evidenced my my opinion on the Reds reaction tonight, and how I completely approve it... I'm not the type of person who's satisfied with second... And I'm DEFINITELY not the type of person that will be pushed around and take it lying down... I'll leave that for the "men" driving Prius's when in reality their car leaves a greater carbon footprint than a truck...

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2010, 11:27 PM
Just to expand on what I said, even though I had a feeling the Cardinals would win this series, I'm still furious over the way they've played. The outfield defense tonight was pitiful.

Dusty needs to put his best lineup on the field tomorrow. The Reds have to find a way to beat Wainwright tomorrow and salvage one game in this series.

REDblooded
08-10-2010, 11:28 PM
Just to expand on what I said, even though I had a feeling the Cardinals would win this series, I'm still furious over the way they've played. The outfield defense tonight was pitiful.

Dusty needs to put his best lineup on the field tomorrow. The Reds have to find a way to beat Wainwright tomorrow and salvage one game in this series.


I agree... And if Gomes isn't doing it with the bat, than I can't stomach to see his glove...

edabbs44
08-10-2010, 11:30 PM
Prediction for tomorrow's OF: Gomes, Nix and Bruce across.

alloverjr
08-10-2010, 11:38 PM
Prediction for tomorrow's OF: Gomes, Nix and Bruce across.

You can't possibly put Gomes out in LF during the day. The sun will be out! :cool:

alloverjr
08-10-2010, 11:42 PM
I'm over this one, already. Heck, I expected the Cards to win at least two and possibly three. Hopefully the Reds salvage game 3, but if they don't, 1 game out isn't so bad.


If you thought the Cards would come in and sweep the series in your park you can't possibly think of the Reds as contenders, let alone favorites, for the division. I think too many people are going to try to explain this series away with statements like that.

Doesn't mean that the Reds don't have a decent team, but they play too scared in big games and Tony's team just the opposite. They just stink against the crappy teams.

reds44
08-10-2010, 11:42 PM
Learning expierence. They'll be fine. Have been all year.

REDblooded
08-10-2010, 11:43 PM
Learning expierence. They'll be fine. Have been all year.


Here's the deal... Cards will continue to win 3 out of 5... reds will win 3.5... Is their top 3 DANGED GOOD? You bet... How's it look after that?

Brutus
08-10-2010, 11:46 PM
If you thought the Cards would come in and sweep the series in your park you can't possibly think of the Reds as contenders, let alone favorites, for the division. I think too many people are going to try to explain this series away with statements like that.


Or I think the Reds do much better against the teams they're supposed to beat (which they have to this point), the Cardinals were putting all their eggs in this basket (which they did with their rotation) and Reds fans were simply in for a letdown with such high expectations for this series.

Point is, I'm not explaining away anything. I just didn't expect the Reds to have a good series and it doesn't always have to be a tangible thought. Not all results in the micro are indicative of talent. The Reds got punked in an early series by Pittsburgh, and that certainly wouldn't have given anyone a reason to think the Reds were a contender. But guess what? Here they are in first place.

osuceltic
08-10-2010, 11:48 PM
This looked like virtually every Reds-Cards game of the last 10 years -- the Cards looked like a good, veteran, professional team and the Reds were kicking the ball around the yard and making baserunning blunders like a pony league group. Fortunately, we've seen enough of the Reds this season to know that's not who they are. But it sure was frustrating to watch tonight.

Ghosts of 1990
08-10-2010, 11:48 PM
Yeah, this 6-man outfield platoon; it's not working. While it may be cute, it's a bummer. You have regulars, and you have guys who spell them. Right now I see a ton of guys who don't know their role.

HeatherC1212
08-10-2010, 11:51 PM
I could see this bad game coming right after that brawl. I figured the Reds were either going to be too rattled and play a rough game or come out ready to go and win huge to make a statement. I'm bummed that it was the rattled version that ended up happening (I really wanted Brandon to win the game in a walk off :p: ) but I'm not worried about these guys. They've come back from stuff all season long and I sense a team meeting happening tonight so they can get their heads back on straight for the rest of this homestand. Tomorrow's game will tell us a little more about these guys. The last time they had this bad of a game (brawl aside)? The Padres series. What happened after that really bad game where half the team was sleepwalking? They beat the Padres in the final game, started winning games and series, and eventually ended up at the top of the division. They'll be fine.

BTW-My outfield for tomorrow is Heisey, Stubbs, and Bruce simply to get the solid defense out there for Bronson. Any offense is a bonus.

oregonred
08-10-2010, 11:51 PM
Since the beginning of 2009...

Carpenter 30-7
Wainwright 35-14

Combined 65-21 record

That's almost unheard of good.

They win 75% of the time when 1a and 1b pitch.

ALmost hard to believe they have been about a .500 team since the end of April with that kind of math. A true testment to the suckitude in the #4 and #5 slots. Which makes the Westbrook move a lot easier to understand.

oregonred
08-10-2010, 11:52 PM
Yeah, this 6-man outfield platoon; it's not working. While it may be cute, it's a bummer. You have regulars, and you have guys who spell them. Right now I see a ton of guys who don't know their role.

Totally agree. 4-man OF rotations are ok, the 6-headed monster blows chunks.

WVRed
08-10-2010, 11:57 PM
I could see this bad game coming right after that brawl. I figured the Reds were either going to be too rattled and play a rough game or come out ready to go and win huge to make a statement. I'm bummed that it was the rattled version that ended up happening (I really wanted Brandon to win the game in a walk off :p: ) but I'm not worried about these guys. They've come back from stuff all season long and I sense a team meeting happening tonight so they can get their heads back on straight for the rest of this homestand. Tomorrow's game will tell us a little more about these guys. The last time they had this bad of a game (brawl aside)? The Padres series. What happened after that really bad game where half the team was sleepwalking? They beat the Padres, started winning games, and eventually ended up at the top of the division. They'll be fine.

BTW-My outfield for tomorrow is Heisey, Stubbs, and Bruce simply to get the solid defense out there for Bronson. Any offense is a bonus.

This.

Tony LaRussa is IMO the dirtiest manager in baseball, definitely up there with Coach K from an overall perspective when it comes to his tactics and mind games. And of course, it works.

LaRussa does things to get into the heads of opposing teams, and this works when its a young team. Complaining yesterday about Leake possibly doctoring the ball went unnoticed by people on this board, but its a tactic to get into the head of a young team. Same thing with the fight today.

I'll be happy to finish this series and move on to Florida. I was hoping that we would extend our lead in the central in case something happened that a series loss or sweep wouldn't hurt us. My expectations were pretty low for this series.

Cyclone792
08-10-2010, 11:59 PM
Since the beginning of 2009...

Carpenter 30-7
Wainwright 35-14

Combined 65-21 record

That's almost unheard of good.

They win 75% of the time when 1a and 1b pitch.

ALmost hard to believe they have been about a .500 team since the end of April with that kind of math. A true testment to the suckitude in the #4 and #5 slots. Which makes the Westbrook move a lot easier to understand.

I actually think the Cardinals will slowly fade. They've been slowly fading since May 1st so it's really not much of a surprise if they do. Run differential is barely in the black, and their record is only seven over .500 in that span.

Molina, Schumaker, Ryan and Lopez are black holes. Rasmus has been crashing for a month now, and Jay's BABIP is unsustainable. If opponents can limit the damage that Pujols and Holliday cause, their offense will struggle.

If the Reds continue playing solid ball and win most of the games they should win - like they did at Pittsburgh and Chicago - they'll jump back out in front. It's just going to take some more time for that play out, but they just have to regroup and rally much like they did after the Phillies series.

Now if they struggle against Florida, then it may be time to pause and take a look. First thing, though, I think Arroyo pulls through tomorrow.

oregonred
08-10-2010, 11:59 PM
This.

My expectations were pretty low for this series.

Of course, we are Reds fans in 2010. LOL

Coach K dirty? That's a new one.

oregonred
08-11-2010, 12:01 AM
Well if Wainwright, Carpenter or Pujols miss any time then the equation changes in an instant for the Cardinals. They are the Cards so they always seem to live right.

When 100% healthy that's easily the best three-headed monster in baseball.

Ghosts of 1990
08-11-2010, 12:03 AM
Edmonds is going to mess up the chemistry on this team. they're going to give him a ton more playing time then he should get during this stretch run, and I don't really see him delivering more then .240 and a few hits here and there. Taking away valuable at-bats from the young guys and then missing out on the playoffs in the process is something I'd be bitter about for years.

Tonight was a great example of this in the beginning stages.

dsmith421
08-11-2010, 12:04 AM
The last two days have been an unmitigated disaster, but fortunately a baseball season is six months long.

NC Reds
08-11-2010, 12:07 AM
I didn't like seeing Heisey lifted for Edmonds tonight. Moves like that and a general trend toward playing the older guys (Edmonds, Nix for ex.) concern me more than the result of the two games. We didn't get here by giving playing time away to a 40 year old OF.

Tony Cloninger
08-11-2010, 12:21 AM
Baker has not been doing that at all. Nix is not even that old either.

Edmonds is not Reggie Taylor here...he is useful.

harangatang
08-11-2010, 12:26 AM
First thing, though, I think Arroyo pulls through tomorrow.I think so as well. Whenever the Reds need a bounce back in a big game, he always pull through for them. The Reds may not win the game, but he will at least give them a chance.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 02:49 AM
Worst case scenario: Reds get swept at home in a series where the Cardinals set their rotation up to where their best three starters would face the Reds. At worst, the Reds end the series one game behind the Cardinals. Is a sweep disappointing? Heck yes, but the Reds have also been swept by the Pirates and Mariners this season. If you ask me, it would have been an epic fail for the Cardinals had they lost this series.

The Reds are a better team than the Cardinals. I truly believe that. The Cardinals have beat up on the Reds this year. It sucks, but it's not the end of the season. The Reds went 9-6 in 2006 against the Cardinals. Maybe the Cardinals should hand their World Series trophy over to the Reds if head to head matchups mean so much?

I want a win on Wednesday to avoid the sweep, getting swept sucks, especially by the Cardinals, but it still won't be the end of the season if they lose.

When the heck did I become the voice of reason? I don't like this. :)

bucksfan2
08-11-2010, 09:37 AM
Worst case scenario: Reds get swept at home in a series where the Cardinals set their rotation up to where their best three starters would face the Reds. At worst, the Reds end the series one game behind the Cardinals. Is a sweep disappointing? Heck yes, but the Reds have also been swept by the Pirates and Mariners this season. If you ask me, it would have been an epic fail for the Cardinals had they lost this series.

The Reds are a better team than the Cardinals. I truly believe that. The Cardinals have beat up on the Reds this year. It sucks, but it's not the end of the season. The Reds went 9-6 in 2006 against the Cardinals. Maybe the Cardinals should hand their World Series trophy over to the Reds if head to head matchups mean so much?

I want a win on Wednesday to avoid the sweep, getting swept sucks, especially by the Cardinals, but it still won't be the end of the season if they lose.

When the heck did I become the voice of reason? I don't like this. :)

I just can't buy into the Reds being a better team than the Cards. They are close, evident by their standing atop the Central, but I just think the Cards are a tad bit better. The Reds can't match up with Carpenter and Wainwright and the 3-4 hitters of Pujols and Holliday are better than their Reds counterparts.

If your going to beat the Cards you can't let their roll players beat you. You can't let the Jay's, Ryan's, Shumacher's, Molina's constantly get on base. You need to eliminate the damage that Pujols and Holiday can do in the order.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-11-2010, 09:52 AM
I just can't buy into the Reds being a better team than the Cards. They are close, evident by their standing atop the Central, but I just think the Cards are a tad bit better. The Reds can't match up with Carpenter and Wainwright and the 3-4 hitters of Pujols and Holliday are better than their Reds counterparts.

If your going to beat the Cards you can't let their roll players beat you. You can't let the Jay's, Ryan's, Shumacher's, Molina's constantly get on base. You need to eliminate the damage that Pujols and Holiday can do in the order.

Agree with this.

blumj
08-11-2010, 09:56 AM
Worst case scenario: Reds get swept at home in a series where the Cardinals set their rotation up to where their best three starters would face the Reds. At worst, the Reds end the series one game behind the Cardinals. Is a sweep disappointing? Heck yes, but the Reds have also been swept by the Pirates and Mariners this season. If you ask me, it would have been an epic fail for the Cardinals had they lost this series.

The Reds are a better team than the Cardinals. I truly believe that. The Cardinals have beat up on the Reds this year. It sucks, but it's not the end of the season. The Reds went 9-6 in 2006 against the Cardinals. Maybe the Cardinals should hand their World Series trophy over to the Reds if head to head matchups mean so much?

I want a win on Wednesday to avoid the sweep, getting swept sucks, especially by the Cardinals, but it still won't be the end of the season if they lose.

When the heck did I become the voice of reason? I don't like this. :)
It happens all the time, rivals play this "huge" series and the team that wins that series loses their next series while the team that lost that series wins their next one and it's as if the "huge" series never happened a few days later.

fearofpopvol1
08-11-2010, 01:38 PM
Even if the Reds win today, I do not think they are better than the Cardinals. If the Reds face the Cards in the playoffs, I believe the Reds would lose. Take the Reds top 3 starting pitchers and stack them against the Cards and the Reds are just not better. That's not to say that I don't think the Reds are good, because I think they are. And I think they match up against a lot of other playoff caliber teams much better, but the Cards are 1 team I would not want to face in the playoffs.

blumj
08-11-2010, 02:29 PM
Even if the Reds win today, I do not think they are better than the Cardinals. If the Reds face the Cards in the playoffs, I believe the Reds would lose. Take the Reds top 3 starting pitchers and stack them against the Cards and the Reds are just not better. That's not to say that I don't think the Reds are good, because I think they are. And I think they match up against a lot of other playoff caliber teams much better, but the Cards are 1 team I would not want to face in the playoffs.
People said the exact same thing about the Cards last year, though.

fearofpopvol1
08-11-2010, 02:51 PM
People said the exact same thing about the Cards last year, though.

The difference being, they have Garcia this year, who they didn't have last year. If Garcia wasn't in the picture and/or pitching as well, I would have a different opinion.

blumj
08-11-2010, 03:30 PM
The difference being, they have Garcia this year, who they didn't have last year. If Garcia wasn't in the picture and/or pitching as well, I would have a different opinion.
Pineiro pitched very well for them last year, also. Maybe it's a bad matchup, but you still just never know with a short series is all.

WVRed
08-11-2010, 03:42 PM
Of course, we are Reds fans in 2010. LOL

Coach K dirty? That's a new one.

The guy who introduced the flop into college basketball.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 04:17 PM
Eh, still only a game out but this series hurt. That was an awful series. The Reds didn't even have a lead the whole entire series. Time to bounce back and win the series this weekend vs the Marlins.

Joseph
08-11-2010, 04:20 PM
Where's that fork.....

traderumor
08-11-2010, 05:59 PM
Like a trip to the dentist, this series caused a lot of anxiety prior to its coming, then hurt like crap in the chair. But its over now, the swelling will go down, the bleeding will stop, and we get a day off to regroup. Keep winning series and we'll be in it til the end. Who knows, maybe we can go into Busch and turn the tables Labor Day Weekend.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2010, 06:27 PM
From John Fay - Rolen on the sweep


“We’ve been a game up, a game down all year. Would we have liked the outcome to be different? Yeah. They outplayed us in the series. They threw their three top starters at us. They responded and pitched well. They swung the bats well. We’ll move on and keep playing.”

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/11/rolen-on-the-sweep/

The Reds are one game back with 47 games remaining. We're not dead yet. I think we'll be tied for the division lead after this weekend.

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 08:15 PM
ALmost hard to believe they have been about a .500 team since the end of April with that kind of math. A true testment to the suckitude in the #4 and #5 slots. Which makes the Westbrook move a lot easier to understand.

Right, the Cardinals' #4 (Penny) and #5 (Lohse) guys have been out most of the year. We needed somebody, and Westbrook was the best available since the Astros refused to deal Oswalt within their division. Adding Oswalt to that rotation would have been scary. Lohse should be back soon, but he is getting lit up in the minors brighter than the night sky over the Capital on the 4th of July!