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mikemo14
08-11-2010, 01:33 AM
I have to wonder why Hal Mccoy felt the need to publish the comments Phillips made in front of only him and Jim Day. granted Phillips is responsible for his own words and actions but I dont see why McCoy, a lifetime writer For the Reds would feel the need to publish the entire remark. no wonder Phillips doesnt talk much with the Cincy media. More than likely he very well could have been ,having fun ala Ocho Cinco.

GIDP
08-11-2010, 01:34 AM
I did find it a little funny that Jim Day brought up "Some players say it was off the record, but Phillips owned up to them" once I found out that McCoy and Day were the only 2 standing there.

Either way McCoy should report those things. Its his job.

bshall2105
08-11-2010, 01:36 AM
Last time I checked writers write for publicity. He was probably typing up the story as BP was speaking.

Reds
08-11-2010, 02:08 AM
How has Hal's role changed in recent years? I swear he was going to retire. Is he no longer "official"?

zjr1717
08-11-2010, 02:10 AM
How has Hal's role changed in recent years? I swear he was going to retire. Is he no longer "official"?

He works for Fox Sports Ohio on their website. I've also seen articles of his in the Oxford Press on their website, so yeah, he's official.

GIDP
08-11-2010, 02:19 AM
Yea Hal McCoy basically is an old guy who retired but found a job working from home and said sure.

He only goes to the home games I believe.

Reds
08-11-2010, 02:23 AM
I guess he officially retired from just the Dayton Daily News print last year. He still maintains a blog on their website however. He also got one year of salary to retire.

zjr1717
08-11-2010, 02:26 AM
It's not really Hals fault, if Hal hadn't been around, Phillips would have said it to somebody else, and they would have published it. Blaming this thing on Hal is just shooting the messenger.

Natty Redlocks
08-11-2010, 07:58 AM
I'm no conspiracy theorist, but wouldn't it be in the best interest of the Reds organization to manufacture rivalries to get the fans fired up? Would it really be that surprising if Phillips (not to mention Votto at the ASB) was encouraged to talk a little trash?

Old NDN
08-11-2010, 09:55 AM
If you go to Hal's blog, you will find that Phillips was delighted with Hal's story.

CySeymour
08-11-2010, 10:13 AM
If you don't want comments to get out, then you don't say them to a reporter, whether they are a reporter for your team or not. Essentially, comments like this is what sells papers and drives up website hits. McCoy did nothing wrong.

couch_manager
08-11-2010, 10:31 AM
Give Hal a break. He's blind. He couldn't see it coming.

FlightRick
08-11-2010, 08:40 PM
Also in the same blog where you can read with your own eyes that Brandon was not "off the record" (rather, he was obviously answering a question about whether or not his foot injury would place his availability in question, and in so doing, decided to explain exactly why he would not be missing the Cardinal series), you can see Bronson Arroyo get to the Heart of the Matter, well before last night's game was even played:

"These types of things don’t mean a whole lot. We play the game to play the game and what Brandon says in the clubhouse isn’t going to affect the outcome of the ballgame." -- Bronson Arroyo, 8/10/10

And that's exactly how it should have been. Nothing said in the media should affect the way the game is played on the field. And yet: the Cards (first Molina, and then Carpenter) decided to take an unrelated bit of media fluffery and actual pretend like it had a place on the field of play, and things escalated into a giant mess that will now require MLB video reviews and multiple suspensions.

Which means that this incident won't just affect the "outcome of the game" (as Bronson pointed out that it shouldn't), it will affect the outcomes of SEVERAL games (depending on the numbers of games missed by whatever number of players) and perhaps even affect the outcome of a pennant race.

And that's not on Phillips. That's on the Cards. Entirely on them. It sucks if there was actual physical harm done to any players, but in the grander cosmic scheme of things, the Institutional Harm that is owed is pretty much 90% owed to the Cards (the Reds can take 10% for Phillips actually giving a crap when Molina started pitching his little fit, instead of just laughing at him and offering up a pitying shake of the head, like I would have). I wish MLB would see it that way, too... but I bet they don't.

Somebody forward Selig the Prophetic Wisdom of Bronson Arroyo, and make sure they take that into consideration.

Maybe they'll actually grasp the concept that what happens in the realm of showboating is unrelated to what happens in the course of a game. Molina wants to imitate Phillips as he makes a home run trot? That's a proper retort to somebody calling you a (fitting and apt) name. Instigating a mid-game fight that will have repercussions on an entire play-off chace is not. Having your Drama Queen star SP make things even worse after things have settled down is even less appropriate.

My fingers are crossed, but my pessimism is mighty...


Rick

redlegs2370
08-11-2010, 09:32 PM
And that's exactly how it should have been. Nothing said in the media should affect the way the game is played on the field. And yet: the Cards (first Molina, and then Carpenter) decided to take an unrelated bit of media fluffery and actual pretend like it had a place on the field of play, and things escalated into a giant mess that will now require MLB video reviews and multiple suspensions.

Which means that this incident won't just affect the "outcome of the game" (as Bronson pointed out that it shouldn't), it will affect the outcomes of SEVERAL games (depending on the numbers of games missed by whatever number of players) and perhaps even affect the outcome of a pennant race.

And that's not on Phillips. That's on the Cards. Entirely on them. It sucks if there was actual physical harm done to any players, but in the grander cosmic scheme of things, the Institutional Harm that is owed is pretty much 90% owed to the Cards (the Reds can take 10% for Phillips actually giving a crap when Molina started pitching his little fit, instead of just laughing at him and offering up a pitying shake of the head, like I would have). I wish MLB would see it that way, too... but I bet they don't.

Somebody forward Selig the Prophetic Wisdom of Bronson Arroyo, and make sure they take that into consideration.

Maybe they'll actually grasp the concept that what happens in the realm of showboating is unrelated to what happens in the course of a game. Molina wants to imitate Phillips as he makes a home run trot? That's a proper retort to somebody calling you a (fitting and apt) name. Instigating a mid-game fight that will have repercussions on an entire play-off chace is not. Having your Drama Queen star SP make things even worse after things have settled down is even less appropriate.

My fingers are crossed, but my pessimism is mighty...


Rick
Rick that is the best post I have read all night! Well said!

Rex0r
08-12-2010, 12:31 AM
Is Phillips bi-polar? Why did the dude try to tap molina right after calling him a *****? I mean c'mon, tough latin catcher......you know he doesn't like being called a ***** and especially doesn't like someone talking about his team like that. Everything was pretty chill till Cueto started kicking like a monkey. I just hope we don't start throwing at each other, would hate to see Albert or Votto get hurt.

10xWSChamps
08-12-2010, 02:45 AM
Also in the same blog where you can read with your own eyes that Brandon was not "off the record" (rather, he was obviously answering a question about whether or not his foot injury would place his availability in question, and in so doing, decided to explain exactly why he would not be missing the Cardinal series), you can see Bronson Arroyo get to the Heart of the Matter, well before last night's game was even played:

"These types of things don’t mean a whole lot. We play the game to play the game and what Brandon says in the clubhouse isn’t going to affect the outcome of the ballgame." -- Bronson Arroyo, 8/10/10

And that's exactly how it should have been. Nothing said in the media should affect the way the game is played on the field. And yet: the Cards (first Molina, and then Carpenter) decided to take an unrelated bit of media fluffery and actual pretend like it had a place on the field of play, and things escalated into a giant mess that will now require MLB video reviews and multiple suspensions.

Which means that this incident won't just affect the "outcome of the game" (as Bronson pointed out that it shouldn't), it will affect the outcomes of SEVERAL games (depending on the numbers of games missed by whatever number of players) and perhaps even affect the outcome of a pennant race.

And that's not on Phillips. That's on the Cards. Entirely on them. It sucks if there was actual physical harm done to any players, but in the grander cosmic scheme of things, the Institutional Harm that is owed is pretty much 90% owed to the Cards (the Reds can take 10% for Phillips actually giving a crap when Molina started pitching his little fit, instead of just laughing at him and offering up a pitying shake of the head, like I would have). I wish MLB would see it that way, too... but I bet they don't.

Somebody forward Selig the Prophetic Wisdom of Bronson Arroyo, and make sure they take that into consideration.

Maybe they'll actually grasp the concept that what happens in the realm of showboating is unrelated to what happens in the course of a game. Molina wants to imitate Phillips as he makes a home run trot? That's a proper retort to somebody calling you a (fitting and apt) name. Instigating a mid-game fight that will have repercussions on an entire play-off chace is not. Having your Drama Queen star SP make things even worse after things have settled down is even less appropriate.

My fingers are crossed, but my pessimism is mighty...


Rick



So if someone said they hated you 4-5 times and called you a little <female dog> twice, you would just laugh it off?

Brandon Phillips did not tap Molina on the pads in a gesture of good will, he was waiting to see what Molina would do, whether or not he was a little "female dog" like Brandon said he was.

So Brandon tried to tap Molina on the shin guards once and Molina kicked his bat away and says something to Brandon, and then looks away. Molina was still ready to play baseball, but Brandon was not.

A split second later Brandon really wants to get under his skin so he tries to tap him on the pads a second time.

Yadier takes offense to this as it's obvious that Phillips is trying to start something and so he starts yelling at Brandon. It takes about 3 seconds for Brandon to take his helmet off and start screaming back at Yadier. He knew exactly what he was doing, it was a calculated move.

There's only going to be one suspension here whether Reds' fans like it or not and that's to Cueto. LaRue has cuts on his face and, supposedly, a concussion (although I'm skeptical on that). Cueto kicked him in the face and Carpenter on the back. No one else did anything physical, except for some heavy pushing, and Johnny Cueto decided it would be a good idea to test out his best Bruce Lee impression on some Cardinals while he had his metal cleats on.

The Cardinals aren't going to be anyone's little female dog, especially not the Reds' or Brandon Phillips'. Brandon is a punk who started this whole thing. If Brandon Phillips doesn't exist none of this ever happens. Worst of all, Brandon Phillips is a punk who can't back it up on or off the field.

FlightRick
08-12-2010, 11:06 AM
So if someone said they hated you 4-5 times and called you a little <female dog> twice, you would just laugh it off?

You're kinda twisting my point around backwards... what I said was that it was PHILLIPS who should have taken the last available "out" before things escalated, and was disappointed when he didn't. Thus, I concluded that Phillips may be on the hook for as much as 10% of the blame for this going from a harmless war of words to an on-field scuffle with real consequences on a pennant chase.

Brandon had the chance to just chuckle at Molina's decision to stand up and make it more physical than verbal, shake his head and say something like "what are you, in 5th grade?", and then step out of the box. At that point, if Molina is a mature and reasonable person, he gets back down and we play ball; if he isn't, and he pursues the altercation further by chasing after Phillips, it becomes 100% obvious (rather than just 90%) who's to blame for things escalating.

Phillips didn't do that. After Molina decided to beg for the fight, Phillips whipped off his helmet and went chest-to-chest and offered him a chance to have it. It could have been over right there: Phillips did a little name-calling, Molina puffs up his chest and "defends his honor" just in case there are any pretty girls watching, and then Brandon just lets it go because -- as it turns out -- this is major league baseball, not a middle school playground. Instead: we got what we got, because Brandon decided to duplicate Molina's immaturity. Oh well....

And for the record, to answer the question the way you twisted it around: yeah, if I'm in Molina's shoes and I was the one called the name, I'd also be fine laughing it off. Especially if it was just something fun and showboaty that Phillips said to the press, and not something he said privately, to my face, while looking me in the eyes. There's a difference between "Ahhh yeah, I hate them guys. They're all a buncha sissies, and I really want to beat them" said in a general pro-wrestling-interview kinda way, and somebody pulling you aside to say "You, Yadier Molina, are a weenis. I specifically hate you, and wish bad things happen to you, Yadier Molina, you nancyboy. You are such a wuss that I will bend you over the kitchen table and you won't be able to stop me, because you, Yadier Molina, the ultimate pantywaist, belong to me."

I mean, in neither case is there any reason to take words and turn it into a physical confrontation, but you can see the difference between the two, right? The latter scenario, you can probably get angry/confronational about it and few people will really think less of you. But the former scenario? Gimme a break. Like Bronson said in the article we're talking about, "Nobody takes that stuff seriously." Looks like he should amend his statement to "No rational person takes that stuff seriously, but Yadier Molina does." If something like that gets under your skin that bad, you're probably also the kind of person who'll want to punch me in the face if I call you chicken and make clucking noises at you.

And in that case, yep, you can bluster and threaten and call me names and I will indeed laugh it off and let it be. It takes two to tango, as they say. And if one of the two is me, there will be no dancing unless you absolutely force me and it's obvious to all who started it. Then, as my track record shows in the grand total of 3 times in my sissified/non-confrontational life I've dealt with raging mantards who just HAVE to dance, I'm also more than happy to make sure it's equally obvious who finished it, but that's another story...

Point is, everything Brandon did falls under the realm of "nothing." Just pointless fluff that should have no bearing on the game on the field. Then Molina went and turned it into "something." If you HAD to do something on the field, just do it in the time-honored baseball way: plunk Phillips in the ribs, have the umps warn everybody "OK, that's enough of that, any more shennanigans, and you're getting ejected," and it's done and dealt with. Molina handled it in the "drunk guy at the bar" way, and now it's far from done, pending a full blown MLB investigation. Whee?


Brandon Phillips did not tap Molina on the pads in a gesture of good will, he was waiting to see what Molina would do, whether or not he was a little "female dog" like Brandon said he was...

I'll agree that when he tapped the second time, that was probably "to see what Molina would do." But how, precisely, does one conduct a b-word test? Which response by Molina makes him a b-word? Which proves he is not?

I am genuinely curious as to your (or anybody else's) answers to this. If such a test really exists, maybe Phillips really was measuring Molina's b-word-ness... a follow-up question: what is the unit of measurement for b-word-ness? It's "kilopansy," isn't it?

But I'm pretty sure no such test exists, and all this bat-tapping is still under the realm of pointless fluff. In this case, instead of showboaty pro-wrestling style comments to the press, it was just a bit of gamesmanship, a psychological ploy... and much like clucking noises, a bit of gamesmanship is NOT grounds for turning things into physical threats. In fact, when faced with gamesmanship, the wise man goes 180 degrees the other direction, and doesn't lose his cool. But not Yadier Molina; he's fine with blowing his stack in a rather unbecoming fashion.

Still, if you just count the "psychological ploy"/gamesmanship aspect of it (and temporarily ignore the wildly immature over-reaction by Molina, et al), I stand here as a Reds fan willing tell you that Phillips' ploy backfired badly. Molina's actual on-field response to the gamesmanship was to hit a HR. And then, break into a trot imitating Phillips as he rounded second base. Now THAT is how you respond to name-calling: with some top-shelf pro-wrestling style gimmickery of your own. If Molina had just done that, I'd have hated him with every fiber of my being, but I'd also have been secretly entertained by having yet another reason to really get fired up for a big-time series/rivalry.

Instead, Molina didn't separate the pro-wrestling side show aspects from the game of baseball, and so the secret entertainmenty-ness is overshadowed by my sudden sense that Phillips' name-calling might be spot-on accurate.


There's only going to be one suspension here whether Reds' fans like it or not and that's to Cueto. LaRue has cuts on his face and, supposedly, a concussion (although I'm skeptical on that).

I'm skeptical about MLB having the restraint to suspend only one person (if they keep it under a half-dozen, I'll be surprised), but fine, you're right: Cueto's gonna take it on the chin. Given the evidence available, MLB will see the "what" and won't be able to deduce the "why" nearly as easily. Cleats-meeting-face is a pretty bad "what," even if I'm quite confident that the "why" would make Cueto mostly-innocent in a blameless accident.


The Cardinals aren't going to be anyone's little female dog, especially not the Reds' or Brandon Phillips'.... Brandon Phillips is a punk who can't back it up on or off the field.

What the hell does Phillips have to "back up" off the field. I admit he crapped the bed to the tune of 2-for-14 after all his smacktalk, and that's not what I wanted to see on the field... but "off the field"? Really? So until Phillips accepts a fist-fight with Molina, he's a punk? Wow.

I think I'm beginning to realize the crux of our argument, here... you think that word, as used in this particular instance of media fluffery, actually means something. You believe that word is an actual comment on your worth as a person. You don't want to be that word. You don't even want Phillips conducting tests to see how much of that word you have in you.

You are wrong.

Either that, or you secretly know you ARE that word, and you're really insecure about other people calling attention to it.

[ZING~! If that last sentence truly offends you, then I'll see you out behind the school at 3pm sharp to duke it out... or, if you begin to grasp my over-riding thesis: call me some name here in public, make it sound like a death feud for all the fans, but then when the circus side show is over, we'll still go get a beer together and laugh about it. You're buying; my team just dropped three straight, so it's the least you can do, you ladyboy.]


Brandon is a punk who started this whole thing. If Brandon Phillips doesn't exist none of this ever happens.

That is a factually true statement. I agree with you 100%.

Here's another factually true statement: "If I amputate my arm, a hangnail can never happen."

See how that works? So perhaps let's step back from vague talk about eradicating Brandon Phillips off the face of the earth because of a little kerfuffle on a baseball diamond, and think this one through a little more logically...

Putting it in terms that most should recognize from Philosophy 201: this isn't "If A, then B." It's more like "A is a necessary condition for B." But just because we have A doesn't automatically mean B will always follow. Without an arm, the hangnail can't happen, but the arm alone doesn't guarantee that you will always have a hangnail. Or more to the point: Without Phillips, the fracas couldn't have happened, but Phillips alone is still insufficient cause for the fracas to always happen. That's not subjective opinion, that is objective truth. Or, in the words of Ron Burgandy: "It's science."

Brandon Phillips can exist, he can even say the things he said and do the things he did, and this still didn't have to happen. Hell, it SHOULDN'T have happened. But it did, anyway.

I'll leave it up to you to puzzle out an explanation for why it did; I think you can deduce where I stand, but your mileage may vary....


Rick

10xWSChamps
08-12-2010, 02:05 PM
You're kinda twisting my point around backwards... what I said was that it was PHILLIPS who should have taken the last available "out" before things escalated, and was disappointed when he didn't. Thus, I concluded that Phillips may be on the hook for as much as 10% of the blame for this going from a harmless war of words to an on-field scuffle with real consequences on a pennant chase.

Brandon had the chance to just chuckle at Molina's decision to stand up and make it more physical than verbal, shake his head and say something like "what are you, in 5th grade?", and then step out of the box. At that point, if Molina is a mature and reasonable person, he gets back down and we play ball; if he isn't, and he pursues the altercation further by chasing after Phillips, it becomes 100% obvious (rather than just 90%) who's to blame for things escalating.

Phillips didn't do that. After Molina decided to beg for the fight, Phillips whipped off his helmet and went chest-to-chest and offered him a chance to have it. It could have been over right there: Phillips did a little name-calling, Molina puffs up his chest and "defends his honor" just in case there are any pretty girls watching, and then Brandon just lets it go because -- as it turns out -- this is major league baseball, not a middle school playground. Instead: we got what we got, because Brandon decided to duplicate Molina's immaturity. Oh well....

I think the key thing you are missing in all of this, when you blame Molina, is that Phillips knew exactly what he was doing by tapping on Molina's shin pads not once, but twice after he kicked his bat away the first time.

Phillips was the one who wanted a confrontation. Molina was ready to play baseball but Phillips wanted to provoke Molina into something, and he succeeded.


And for the record, to answer the question the way you twisted it around: yeah, if I'm in Molina's shoes and I was the one called the name, I'd also be fine laughing it off. Especially if it was just something fun and showboaty that Phillips said to the press, and not something he said privately, to my face, while looking me in the eyes. There's a difference between "Ahhh yeah, I hate them guys. They're all a buncha sissies, and I really want to beat them" said in a general pro-wrestling-interview kinda way, and somebody pulling you aside to say "You, Yadier Molina, are a weenis. I specifically hate you, and wish bad things happen to you, Yadier Molina, you nancyboy. You are such a wuss that I will bend you over the kitchen table and you won't be able to stop me, because you, Yadier Molina, the ultimate pantywaist, belong to me."

I mean, in neither case is there any reason to take words and turn it into a physical confrontation, but you can see the difference between the two, right? The latter scenario, you can probably get angry/confronational about it and few people will really think less of you. But the former scenario? Gimme a break. Like Bronson said in the article we're talking about, "Nobody takes that stuff seriously." Looks like he should amend his statement to "No rational person takes that stuff seriously, but Yadier Molina does." If something like that gets under your skin that bad, you're probably also the kind of person who'll want to punch me in the face if I call you chicken and make clucking noises at you.

And in that case, yep, you can bluster and threaten and call me names and I will indeed laugh it off and let it be. It takes two to tango, as they say. And if one of the two is me, there will be no dancing unless you absolutely force me and it's obvious to all who started it. Then, as my track record shows in the grand total of 3 times in my sissified/non-confrontational life I've dealt with raging mantards who just HAVE to dance, I'm also more than happy to


First off, what Brandon Phillips said was not just some fun comment in the spirit of competition. It was huge news in the sports world after he said it. Why you ask? Because it was something you rarely hear, it was an angry rant and not a friendly joke.

So you admit you've gotten into a few fights with some idiots? I don't understand what the difference is here. Brandon provoked him verbally and then physically by continuing to tap on his shin guards after it was clear that Molina wanted no part of Brandon Phillips.



Point is, everything Brandon did falls under the realm of "nothing." Just pointless fluff that should have no bearing on the game on the field. Then Molina went and turned it into "something." If you HAD to do something on the field, just do it in the time-honored baseball way: plunk Phillips in the ribs, have the umps warn everybody "OK, that's enough of that, any more shennanigans, and you're getting ejected," and it's done and dealt with. Molina handled it in the "drunk guy at the bar" way, and now it's far from done, pending a full blown MLB investigation. Whee?



I'll agree that when he tapped the second time, that was probably "to see what Molina would do." But how, precisely, does one conduct a b-word test? Which response by Molina makes him a b-word? Which proves he is not?

I am genuinely curious as to your (or anybody else's) answers to this. If such a test really exists, maybe Phillips really was measuring Molina's b-word-ness... a follow-up question: what is the unit of measurement for b-word-ness? It's "kilopansy," isn't it?

But I'm pretty sure no such test exists, and all this bat-tapping is still under the realm of pointless fluff. In this case, instead of showboaty pro-wrestling style comments to the press, it was just a bit of gamesmanship, a psychological ploy... and much like clucking noises, a bit of gamesmanship is NOT grounds for turning things into physical threats. In fact, when faced with gamesmanship, the wise man goes 180 degrees the other direction, and doesn't lose his cool. But not Yadier Molina; he's fine with blowing his stack in a rather unbecoming fashion.

Still, if you just count the "psychological ploy"/gamesmanship aspect of it (and temporarily ignore the wildly immature over-reaction by Molina, et al), I stand here as a Reds fan willing tell you that Phillips' ploy backfired badly. Molina's actual on-field response to the gamesmanship was to hit a HR. And then, break into a trot imitating Phillips as he rounded second base. Now THAT is how you respond to name-calling: with some top-shelf pro-wrestling style gimmickery of your own. If Molina had just done that, I'd have hated him with every fiber of my being, but I'd also have been secretly entertained by having yet another reason to really get fired up for a big-time series/rivalry.



You are just blowing off what Phillips said as just some fun little joke when it was not.



I'm skeptical about MLB having the restraint to suspend only one person (if they keep it under a half-dozen, I'll be surprised), but fine, you're right: Cueto's gonna take it on the chin. Given the evidence available, MLB will see the "what" and won't be able to deduce the "why" nearly as easily. Cleats-meeting-face is a pretty bad "what," even if I'm quite confident that the "why" would make Cueto mostly-innocent in a blameless accident.



It looks like i was right that Cueto was going to be the only player suspended. I was wrong that Baker and LaRussa didn't get suspended but that's pretty meaningless vs. a player. They can manage long distance


What the hell does Phillips have to "back up" off the field. I admit he crapped the bed to the tune of 2-for-14 after all his smacktalk, and that's not what I wanted to see on the field... but "off the field"? Really? So until Phillips accepts a fist-fight with Molina, he's a punk? Wow.

I think I'm beginning to realize the crux of our argument, here... you think that word, as used in this particular instance of media fluffery, actually means something. You believe that word is an actual comment on your worth as a person. You don't want to be that word. You don't even want Phillips conducting tests to see how much of that word you have in you.

You are wrong.

Either that, or you secretly know you ARE that word, and you're really insecure about other people calling attention to it.

[ZING~! If that last sentence truly offends you, then I'll see you out behind the school at 3pm sharp to duke it out... or, if you begin to grasp my over-riding thesis: call me some name here in public, make it sound like a death feud for all the fans, but then when the circus side show is over, we'll still go get a beer together and laugh about it. You're buying; my team just dropped three straight, so it's the least you can do, you ladyboy.]



That is a factually true statement. I agree with you 100%.

Here's another factually true statement: "If I amputate my arm, a hangnail can never happen."

See how that works? So perhaps let's step back from vague talk about eradicating Brandon Phillips off the face of the earth because of a little kerfuffle on a baseball diamond, and think this one through a little more logically...

Putting it in terms that most should recognize from Philosophy 201: this isn't "If A, then B." It's more like "A is a necessary condition for B." But just because we have A doesn't automatically mean B will always follow. Without an arm, the hangnail can't happen, but the arm alone doesn't guarantee that you will always have a hangnail. Or more to the point: Without Phillips, the fracas couldn't have happened, but Phillips alone is still insufficient cause for the fracas to always happen. That's not subjective opinion, that is objective truth. Or, in the words of Ron Burgandy: "It's science."

Brandon Phillips can exist, he can even say the things he said and do the things he did, and this still didn't have to happen. Hell, it SHOULDN'T have happened. But it did, anyway.

I'll leave it up to you to puzzle out an explanation for why it did; I think you can deduce where I stand, but your mileage may vary....


Rick



I'm not suggesting/wishing that Brandon Phillips' existence gets obliterated. I'm just saying that if there is no Brandon Phillips on the Reds then this never happens. YOu keep trying to blame Molina or Carpenter or the Cardinals as a whole when Brandon is the one to blame here.

If you take one person out of the equation, then the whole problem goes away. Doesn't that show you where exactly the blame lies? Hell, even if you let Brandon make his comments and the Reds organization is smart enough to bench him for the series, then once again none of this happens. Or if Phillips' doesnt try to provoke Molina at home plate, none of this happens!

Phillips provoked the Cardinals once in the media and they didn't do anything. Then Phillips provoked Molina on the field and he did something about it. How many free passes would you have given Phillips. Do you think he should be allowed to call the Cardinals every name in the book then try to provoke them into a confrontation on the field and get away with it?

At some point "enough is enough" and that occured when Phillips tapped Molina on the shin guards a second time. If you can't agree that a person should only have to take so much BS before they are allowed to do something about it, then you're being unreasonable.

FlightRick
08-12-2010, 05:08 PM
I think the key thing you are missing in all of this, when you blame Molina, is that Phillips knew exactly what he was doing by tapping on Molina's shin pads not once, but twice after he kicked his bat away the first time.

I already agreed with you on this. Phillips knew exactly what he was doing. Because he (and many other MLB players) do it every game. And if there was an element of "gamesmanship" to doing it twice with Molina, then I already admitted I agreed on that, too.

I also stated my opinion that standing up and getting physical is not a justifiable response to harmless side-show antics. You seem to disagree with that.


First off, what Brandon Phillips said was not just some fun comment in the spirit of competition.

It's not?


It was huge news in the sports world. It was an angry rant and not a friendly joke.

It is?

Look, I won't argue the "friendly" part... Phillips didn't say that stuff looking to make friends. But look at the context: he didn't do it to be taken deadly seriously, either. Read the actual article that we're discussing, and it's all right there in black and white.

A reporter asked Phillips a question about a lingering injury and if it would affect his ability to play in the STL series. Phillips says no, it won't, and he'd play on one leg if he had to, because he really wants to beat the Cards, and then he gets a little more colorful from there. He was underscoring his own competitive fire, got caught up in the bluster, and voila: whatchya gonna do when PhillipsMania runs wild on you, brother?

He didn't name anybody individually, he didn't cite any specific instances of b-word-ness, he spoke in the most vague generalities possible. Nobody who intends to be taken seriously does that. You want to make a point: you make it specific, and you do it in person. I made that distinction already in my last post: Phillips didn't take somebody aside and stare dead in the eyes and state his burning hatred... he got off on a rant talking about how much he wants to win a baseball game, and probably said most of it with a smile on his face.

You know what else really torpedoes your argument that this is somehow a deadly serious thing that Phillips said, that it was said with real venom and hatred, and not in the spirit of showmanship? Simple: Phillips said it on Monday afternoon. He went out and played a perfectly gentlemanly game of baseball on Monday night (even tapping ol' Yadier on the shin), without any incident.

Where's the deadly serious hatred and evil intent again?

Oh wait, then Phillips got to the yard on Tuesday after the story broke nationally, and went out of his way to find the reporter who quoted him so they could laugh and bump fists over how -- even if the Reds lost the opener -- NOW we were having some fun. Because laughing and talking about having fun is what EVERYbody does when they are plotting to do grievous harm to their mortal enemies.


So you admit you've gotten into a few fights with some idiots? I don't understand what the difference is here. Brandon provoked him verbally and then physically by continuing to tap on his shin guards after it was clear that Molina wanted no part of Brandon Phillips.

If the shin tap is where the confrontation became "physical" then we're working from two different points of view. When I make that distinction, it means physical harm is either implied or imminent: standing up, leaning in, charging... by your logic, having a guy on the other team pat you on the back in sarcastic congratulations after you muff a ground ball ("Nice one, no hands!") would count as physical provocation. I just can't see it that way.


You are just blowing off what Phillips said as just some fun little joke when it was not.

Maybe I'm not 100% right, but all evidence points to what Phillips said as being a hell of a lot closer to what I think it was than what you think it was.

If somebody says something that is genuinely hurtful/damaging to another person, they get sued for defamation of character or slander or criminal threatening or harassment or whatever. I don't see any laywers lining up, do you? Let's not waste any more time turning this into something that it's not, OK?


If you take one person out of the equation, then the whole problem goes away. Doesn't that show you where exactly the blame lies?

So, ummmm, you *didn't* take that Philosophy 201 course I referenced in my post above?

I clearly said Phillips was a necessary condition, but not insufficient causation, for the fracas. Without Phillips, you're right, it doesn't happen. But there are a lot of other things you could take out, too, and it doesn't happen, all while leaving Phillips in.

Which only serves to show you that the blame lies exactly ALL OVER THE PLACE. Plenty to go around. I've even charitably given a percentage that I think lies with Phillips. You're just dead stuck on the idea that that percentage is 100%, when clearly, I disagree.


If you can't agree that a person should only have to take so much BS before they are allowed to do something about it, then you're being unreasonable.

I guess I'm unreasonable, then. Or maybe I just don't share the same frame of reference as you do when it comes to reasonable responses to certain stimuli.

You completely ignored my curiosity over the whole b-word matter, and why you think it's important, and why you're so concerned about being called it, and how one can show the world one is not it, and all that... it's obvious it's a big enough deal to you that it counts as something you have to "do something about" when it's thrown at you enough times.

How hard is it to grasp the concept that maybe if somebody keeps doing something to you, then you're justified in doing the SAME THING back at them. That's what you "do about it." You don't take the thing they're doing, multiply it by 4, and then do THAT back at them.

If stuff is reciprocal, that's fine. Maybe it's not Emily Post when it comes to proper etiquette, but it's a pretty rational and sensible way to conduct one's business in a world where there's always gonna be tension. You just have to behave sanely so that the tension simmers lightly, instead of escalating to a rolling boil. Someone teases you, you tease back, and steam is let off on both sides; you don't stand up and threaten to punch them. Just like somebody threatens to punch you, you get ready to punch back just in case; you don't pull out a gun and shoot them.

You give me the impression that you disagree with that, and that you would make the argument that it's perfectly moral to punch somebody who teased you X number of times. That somehow 4 b-words adds up to one justifiable trachea blow. Or that after somebody punches you 4 times, you are allowed to shoot them. Or whatever number of times it takes before you're allowed to "do something about it."

I can't buy that. Generally speaking, I don't think the courts do, either. I'm pretty sure if I unleash my rapier like wit on someone, and they decide to "do something about it" by busting a beer bottle over the back of my head, only one of us is going to jail. And the "but he called bad names, like, at least 15 times, your honor, so he had it coming" defense ain't gonna stop it from happening. You don't earn Man Points by "doing something about it." You earn felonies on your permanent record.

Obviously, it didn't get nearly that far in the specific case of our little basebrawl... but it's the same exact principle in play. And it's something that most people are taught in elementary school: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." Yadier Molina must have skipped that day; he's not the only one in the world who did, not by a long shot, but Tuesday does seem to show he missed out on that lesson...


Rick

10xWSChamps
08-12-2010, 08:59 PM
If the shin tap is where the confrontation became "physical" then we're working from two different points of view. When I make that distinction, it means physical harm is either implied or imminent: standing up, leaning in, charging... by your logic, having a guy on the other team pat you on the back in sarcastic congratulations after you muff a ground ball ("Nice one, no hands!") would count as physical provocation. I just can't see it that way.

I completely 100% disagree that what he said was in jest. If it was, he should have said so. Calling someone a female dog multiple times is usually never a joke, particularly when you accompany the name calling by saying you hate them 5 or 6 times.

If someone kept telling me they hated me and called me a ***** then I would take offense as would 99.999999999% of the rest of the world's population (everyone except for you). So if that guy then came up to me and tried to mock me some more I would have a real problem. By your definition what Yadier did wasn't "physical" either. He didn't harm Brandon and wasn't planning on it.



Maybe I'm not 100% right, but all evidence points to what Phillips said as being a hell of a lot closer to what I think it was than what you think it was.

If somebody says something that is genuinely hurtful/damaging to another person, they get sued for defamation of character or slander or criminal threatening or harassment or whatever. I don't see any laywers lining up, do you? Let's not waste any more time turning this into something that it's not, OK?

Give me a break, of course no one is going to sue Brandon. But him opening his mouth and talking smack was not a friendly gesture. The Cardinals didn't go and cry in a corner about it, they came out to play baseball. But it was clear, by Phillips' shin guard tapping, that Brandon wanted it to go to the next level. And I do agree with you that Yadier was ready to do something about the shin tapping if it happened, but he was also ready to just let it go and play baseball. Brandon chose to make it into something even bigger then just words.


But there are a lot of other things you could take out, too, and it doesn't happen, all while leaving Phillips in.

Oh I agree, there were other things that happened after Brandon and Yadier got into each other's face that really led to the benches clearing. Dusty and Tony should have just came out to yell at each other after it happened, there wasn't a need for the benches to clear. Even then, there wasn't a need for the confrontation to get physical. But tempers obviously flared and things got out of control. But all the BS was originally caused by Brandon, he was the instigator in all of this. With his comments and then his interaction with Yadier before his at-bat. There are numerous people to be blamed and by the fines/suspension the MLB agrees.




You completely ignored my curiosity over the whole b-word matter, and why you think it's important, and why you're so concerned about being called it, and how one can show the world one is not it, and all that... it's obvious it's a big enough deal to you that it counts as something you have to "do something about" when it's thrown at you enough times.

Were you ever 20 something years old at any point in your life? Generally most younger males will only put up with so much verbal abuse before they do something about it. Brandon wanted "to go" and the Cardinals weren't afraid to tango.




How hard is it to grasp the concept that maybe if somebody keeps doing something to you, then you're justified in doing the SAME THING back at them. That's what you "do about it." You don't take the thing they're doing, multiply it by 4, and then do THAT back at them.

The only person that really got violent was Johnny Cueto, am I correct? Yadier didn't take a swing at Brandon, they just got in each others faces. And yes, I think that getting in someone's face and telling them "I'm not your *****" is a perfect response to someone who is mocking you. Yadier responded to Brandon's words with his own words and I think that would be acceptable under your book, but Johnny Cueto's actions wouldn't, correct?

ThornWithin81
08-12-2010, 09:09 PM
McCoy would have been crazy to keep that private. Furthermore, athletes don't say things like that and honestly expect them to be kept quiet. Especially when he says "Let me be clear about this" at the end.

He wanted this to get out. Is McCoy supposed to avoid a huge boom to his publicity because the Cardinals might get a little fired up hearing this stuff?

Of course not.

Caveman Techie
08-13-2010, 03:50 PM
There's only going to be one suspension here whether Reds' fans like it or not and that's to Cueto. LaRue has cuts on his face and, supposedly, a concussion (although I'm skeptical on that). Cueto kicked him in the face and Carpenter on the back. No one else did anything physical, except for some heavy pushing, and Johnny Cueto decided it would be a good idea to test out his best Bruce Lee impression on some Cardinals while he had his metal cleats on.

The Cardinals aren't going to be anyone's little female dog, especially not the Reds' or Brandon Phillips'. Brandon is a punk who started this whole thing. If Brandon Phillips doesn't exist none of this ever happens. Worst of all, Brandon Phillips is a punk who can't back it up on or off the field.

I had that game DVR'd and for the life of me, can't see how Cueto all the way over on the first base side of things, was able to kick Larue and Carpenter (who by the way was turned towards Cueto). When Rolen rushed Carpenter the pile moved back to the backstop (thats how Carpenter really got his scratches) and Larue fell down right in front of Carp. Cueto was off to the side pushed up against the brick backstop to down the line a little bit, he was no where near the little punk Carpenter.

Reds
08-13-2010, 03:56 PM
I had that game DVR'd and for the life of me, can't see how Cueto all the way over on the first base side of things, was able to kick Larue and Carpenter (who by the way was turned towards Cueto).

http://i.imagehost.org/0071/cue.jpg

looks like he got Carp square in the back to me? did I misunderstand?

bounty37h
08-13-2010, 04:30 PM
[QUOTE=10xWSChamps;2204973]So if someone said they hated you 4-5 times and called you a little <female dog> twice, you would just laugh it off?

Brandon Phillips did not tap Molina on the pads in a gesture of good will, he was waiting to see what Molina would do, whether or not he was a little "female dog" like Brandon said he was.

So, you can share the direct quote from Brandon saying that this is what that was? Cause I took it as "lets play ball".

PMand JM
08-13-2010, 05:14 PM
Everybody is still missing the point!!! I Hate The Cardinals, and they, in every way, shape and form, do resemble our neighborhood tramp!