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View Full Version : The Birth of a True Rivalry...Finally



Spitball
08-11-2010, 07:01 PM
The Reds may have stumbled badly this past series against the Cardinals, but perhaps something good came from from it all. In the big picture, the Reds may have finally given birth to a great rivalry. A rivalry that will sell out the ballpark, attract fan attention, and create national attention. The Reds have had more exposure on ESPN in the last 24 hours than they have had in the last eight to ten years. It may not have been all good exposure, but we got to see the Reds featured at the top of every hour.

They have not had a true rivalry since the 1970s when they regularly fought it out with the Dodgers. But those days are long gone. The Reds are no longer even in the same division with the Dodgers who represent just another opponent now. The Reds now have the birth of something to build on.

Yankees-Red Sox, Ohio State-Michigan, Lakers-Celtics, Ali-Frazier...serious rivalries are good for the fans. They generate excitement and passion. I hope the Reds have finally built a real rivalry.

I can't wait until the September series in St. Louis. I hope it is still meanigful in the standings, but I know it will be meaningful to the fans of both teams no matter their team's record. There will be more excitement and passion.

dsmith421
08-11-2010, 07:05 PM
A hammer and a nail do not have a rivalry.

Joseph
08-11-2010, 07:09 PM
A hammer and a nail do not have a rivalry.

+1

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 07:11 PM
Yep...this could be a huge rivalry. BP and Cueto have emerged as two of the most unpopular players to Cardinals fans...now that Cueto injured one of our players.

KronoRed
08-11-2010, 07:12 PM
Hmm, all I see is a broom and some fans who think a pushing and shoving fight proves something.

Brutus
08-11-2010, 07:17 PM
A hammer and a nail do not have a rivalry.

http://open.salon.com/blog/greg_correll/2009/02/11/files/applause1234363884.gif

westofyou
08-11-2010, 07:31 PM
Yep...this could be a huge rivalry. BP and Cueto have emerged as two of the most unpopular players to Cardinals fans...now that Cueto injured one of our players.
yeah imagine the outrage if it was guy who actually played

MattyHo4Life
08-11-2010, 07:32 PM
yeah imagine the outrage if it was guy who actually played

lol well he was going to play today. :cool:

Spitball
08-11-2010, 09:48 PM
A hammer and a nail do not have a rivalry.

I think it is more about the emotion evoked by the contest between two rivals as the measure of a true rivalry and not the outcome of one series. I can remember some one sided series when the faithful fans stayed loyal to their teams. The Red Sox I believe won the first ten games with the Yankees last year and no one declared the end of the rivalry. The Yankees were the winners in the last eight games and again no one declared the rivalry dead. It is about the emotion more than the outcome.

In fact, the Red Sox have been the nail to the Yankee hammer for most of the past 80 years. Their fans stayed emotionally involved with their team despite the Yankee's dominance. The rivalry has survived and has grown.

TheNext44
08-11-2010, 11:11 PM
I think it is more about the emotion evoked by the contest between two rivals as the measure of a true rivalry and not the outcome of one series. I can remember some one sided series when the faithful fans stayed loyal to their teams. The Red Sox I believe won the first ten games with the Yankees last year and no one declared the end of the rivalry. The Yankees were the winners in the last eight games and again no one declared the rivalry dead. It is about the emotion more than the outcome.

In fact, the Red Sox have been the nail to the Yankee hammer for most of the past 80 years. Their fans stayed emotionally involved with their team despite the Yankee's dominance. The rivalry has survived and has grown.

Well stated.

And furthermore, the Reds played pretty well most of the series. It wasn't like they looked like the Bad News Bears and the Cardinals the Big Red Machine. A few balls find holes for the Reds, a few don't for the Cardinals, and the Reds could have swept the series.

TheNext44
08-11-2010, 11:15 PM
Yep...this could be a huge rivalry. BP and Cueto have emerged as two of the most unpopular players to Cardinals fans...now that Cueto injured one of our players.

Only he really didn't.

There are many pics and video of the game that show LaRue unmarked in the face, laughing and perfectly fine in the dugout. If he really got a concussion, he would have been in the trainers room the whole game, or sent to an emergency room.

He may have been kicked in the face, hard to tell on the video, but I am calling standard Cardinal crybaby BS on the whole concussion story. They love to make themselves the victim.

Spitball
08-11-2010, 11:24 PM
They love to make themselves the victim.

Exactly, and if LaRue doesn't put himself in the middle of the melee, he doesn't get himself hurt.

Ghosts of 1990
08-12-2010, 12:17 AM
Gotta start splitting with the Cards at the very least for this to be a true rivalry. The Hammer/nail thing was good.

The Operator
08-12-2010, 12:39 AM
Yea, LaRue seemed A-OK in the dugout last night and his face seemed just fine other than the fact that he's an ugly dude.

This whole "concussion" thing is nothing more than Abner DUIbleday Larussa trying to by a few more games of possible suspension for Cueto. That's it.

dman
08-12-2010, 12:39 AM
Well, if the Reds are going to do this and be all in, then I say bring up Chapman and have him plunk Pujols to really make a statement. Yeah, he could plunk Molina, Carpenter, and maybe somebody else, but if he went out there on the mound, in Busch Stadium and plunked Pujols with a 102 MPH fastball, that would be making a statement.

Spitball
08-12-2010, 12:48 AM
Gotta start splitting with the Cards at the very least for this to be a true rivalry. The Hammer/nail thing was good.

Hammer/Yankees=1,076 wins versus Red Sox

Nail/Red Sox=882 wins versus Yankees

Rivalry=Intensely Intact

Not so good in my opinion.

WVRedsFan
08-12-2010, 01:05 AM
In football, a true rivalry means to win at least half the games. Same in basketball. In baseball you have to win meaningful games, something the Reds are yet to do. Is it a rivalry? Not yet.

Spitball
08-12-2010, 01:21 AM
In football, a true rivalry means to win at least half the games. Same in basketball. In baseball you have to win meaningful games, something the Reds are yet to do. Is it a rivalry? Not yet.

We are talking baseball here and the Red Sox have not won near half the games. Is there a rivalry? You bet there is. It is about the emotion involved in the games. There will always be the David versus Goliath appeal to rivalries...always.

Ohio State has won eight of the last ten versus Michigan. Is that rivalry still intact? You bet there is. It is about the emotion that is evoked when the two teams play and not any "half the games" criteria.

TheNext44
08-12-2010, 01:42 AM
From 1974 to 1976, the Reds went 24-30 against the Dodgers.

Didn't really seem to effect the intensity of that rivelry.

Rivelry's have more to do with standings and geography than anything else.

Johnny Footstool
08-12-2010, 02:21 AM
The Cards already have a rivalry with the Cubs, so any rivalry with the Reds will always be secondary.

sabometrics
08-12-2010, 02:37 AM
The Cards already have a rivalry with the Cubs, so any rivalry with the Reds will always be secondary.

They had a rivalry with the Cubs. Judging by Chicago's aging roster they won't be getting heated with anyone for a while.

TheNext44
08-12-2010, 03:05 AM
They had a rivalry with the Cubs. Judging by Chicago's aging roster they won't be getting heated with anyone for a while.

Yeah, but Cards/Cubs games have been exactly the same for the past 50 some years. Mostly due to the geography of the two teams. It's quick road trip between the two cities, so there really aren't too many true "home" games when they play.

The Cards and the Mets had a pretty strong rivelry inthe 80's. The classy Card fans wore T-shirts that said the "The Mets are Pond Scum" with a picture of pond scum with the Mets logo on them.

Big Klu
08-12-2010, 04:53 AM
Yeah, but Cards/Cubs games have been exactly the same for the past 50 some years. Mostly due to the geography of the two teams. It's quick road trip between the two cities, so there really aren't too many true "home" games when they play.

The Cards and the Mets had a pretty strong rivelry inthe 80's. The classy Card fans wore T-shirts that said the "The Mets are Pond Scum" with a picture of pond scum with the Mets logo on them.

The Cubs-Mets rivalry, a.k.a., "The Battle For Fifth Place in the NL East".

At least it was that way from the late 70's until 1984, when the Cubs surprisingly won the division and the Mets developed yet another crop of young guns.

WVRed
08-12-2010, 09:29 AM
Well, if the Reds are going to do this and be all in, then I say bring up Chapman and have him plunk Pujols to really make a statement. Yeah, he could plunk Molina, Carpenter, and maybe somebody else, but if he went out there on the mound, in Busch Stadium and plunked Pujols with a 102 MPH fastball, that would be making a statement.

I was semi-hoping Cueto would plunk Molina in his first AB. Of course, Cueto would have immediately been tossed and suspended for 15 games. Not really worth it on Molina, but if it were Pujols, at least make sure you end his season.

WVRed
08-12-2010, 09:35 AM
The Cards already have a rivalry with the Cubs, so any rivalry with the Reds will always be secondary.

Exactly.

Being a Reds fan and looking for a rival is like being in West Virginia and watching all the WVU fans trying to claim different rivals.

The problem with any rivalry the Reds come up with is that its not going to be reciprocated unless we start winning long term. Same with the other team. If the Cardinals keep winning as do we in then next five years, we could have a true rivalry.

If the Cardinals have a down year during that stretch, they are replaced by the Cubs, Astros, or whoever else in the Central that is competitive.

MattyHo4Life
08-12-2010, 12:24 PM
He may have been kicked in the face, hard to tell on the video, but I am calling standard Cardinal crybaby BS on the whole concussion story. They love to make themselves the victim.

Well...none of us can say for sure if he did get a concussion. It was hard to tell by the video if he was kicked in the face, but he had marks on his face the next day. It was a lot easier to see Carpenter getting kicked in the back. Luckily he isn't hurt as well.

MattyHo4Life
08-12-2010, 12:25 PM
The Cards already have a rivalry with the Cubs, so any rivalry with the Reds will always be secondary.

The Cardinals/Cubs rivalry has been going on for too long and is too big to be replaced with a rivalry from any team. There is room for a secondary rivalry...is that so bad? In order for a secondary rivalry to work though....both teams need to be competetive. A few years ago the Cards and Astros had a good secondary rivalry, but it isn't much now since the Astros fell apart.

kbrake
08-12-2010, 01:18 PM
I don't think the rivalry is Reds/Cards as much as it is Dusty and LaRussa. We only see so much but I think there is genuine hatred between these two. Its been going on for awhile and now that Dusty's Reds are challenging LaRussals Cards its getting intense.

Big Klu
08-12-2010, 01:39 PM
I don't think the rivalry is Reds/Cards as much as it is Dusty and LaRussa. We only see so much but I think there is genuine hatred between these two. Its been going on for awhile and now that Dusty's Reds are challenging LaRussals Cards its getting intense.

My guess is that something happened back in 1986 in Dusty's final year as a player--as a backup OF/1B for the A's.

westofyou
08-12-2010, 01:59 PM
My guess is that something happened back in 1986 in Dusty's final year as a player--as a backup OF/1B for the A's.

That and managing in the same area, Dusty's team was on the rise and Tony's on the wane... but the real stuff is found in the fact they have managed in the same league for over 12 years.

Cicero
08-12-2010, 02:37 PM
I for one hate the Cardinals just a little more after this series. If the Reds can battle them each year for the division a good rivalry can form. The main issue as has been stated above is for both teams to be competitive.

The Reds are built to compete for a while, I don't know enough to say the same or otherwise for the Cardinals but I suspect their farm system is stocked as well.

Homer Bailey
08-12-2010, 02:41 PM
Exactly.

Being a Reds fan and looking for a rival is like being in West Virginia and watching all the WVU fans trying to claim different rivals.

The problem with any rivalry the Reds come up with is that its not going to be reciprocated unless we start winning long term. Same with the other team. If the Cardinals keep winning as do we in then next five years, we could have a true rivalry.

If the Cardinals have a down year during that stretch, they are replaced by the Cubs, Astros, or whoever else in the Central that is competitive.

A better example would be Marshall thinking that WVU/Marshall is a rivalry.:cool:

RANDY IN INDY
08-12-2010, 03:28 PM
Or an even better example might be WVU fans thinking that they are on the same planet as Ohio State, Alabama, USC, etc, etc, etc............................

Homer Bailey
08-12-2010, 04:27 PM
Or an even better example might be WVU fans thinking that they are on the same planet as Ohio State, Alabama, USC, etc, etc, etc............................

Yep. WVU certainly can't compete with the Georgia's, Auburn's and the Oklahoma's of the world.

MattyHo4Life
08-12-2010, 04:34 PM
I for one hate the Cardinals just a little more after this series. If the Reds can battle them each year for the division a good rivalry can form. The main issue as has been stated above is for both teams to be competitive.

I know what you mean. For a long time, the Reds have been my second favorite team. I've veiwed Cincinnati and St. Louis as being very close in many ways. Unfortunately, I've lost a lot of respect for the Reds after this series. That's alright though. If our two teams loved each other, then it wouldn't be much of a rivalry.

Brutus
08-12-2010, 04:37 PM
I know what you mean. For a long time, the Reds have been my second favorite team. I've veiwed Cincinnati and St. Louis as being very close in many ways. Unfortunately, I've lost a lot of respect for the Reds after this series. That's alright though. If our two teams loved each other, then it wouldn't be much of a rivalry.

It's interesting when an abused spouse starts dishing back the abuse. Suddenly the abuser doesn't like it so much.

MattyHo4Life
08-12-2010, 04:51 PM
It's interesting when an abused spouse starts dishing back the abuse. Suddenly the abuser doesn't like it so much.

There was no abuse until BP started dishing it out.

LincolnparkRed
08-12-2010, 04:55 PM
Yep. WVU certainly can't compete with the Georgia's, Auburn's and the Oklahoma's of the world.

hey wait, I see what you did there :thumbup:

westofyou
08-12-2010, 04:56 PM
There was no abuse until BP started dishing it out.

Tell ya what, no one is the bigger man in this scenario, you guys keep playing he said, she said... but fact is they all acted like a bunch of 1st graders when they were confronted by WORDS they reacted.

All and all kinda bush if you ask me.

nate
08-12-2010, 05:06 PM
Tell ya what, no one is the bigger man in this scenario, you guys keep playing he said, she said... but fact is they all acted like a bunch of 1st graders when they were confronted by WORDS they reacted.

All and all kinda bush if you ask me.

This.

The "I'm objective (so long as my guys look good and the other guys look bad)" nonsense coming out of both sides is played.

Brutus
08-12-2010, 05:30 PM
There was no abuse until BP started dishing it out.

Have you not been paying attention to the dozens of cheap shots the Cardinals have been putting out in the media the last few years? They've been talking trash for several years. Finally someone throws it back at them and they act like they're innocent bystanders.

My goodness, Matty. The laundry list of trash spewed by the Cards these last few years would be enormous.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2010, 05:35 PM
It's interesting when an abused spouse starts dishing back the abuse. Suddenly the abuser doesn't like it so much.

Yep.

WVRedsFan
08-12-2010, 07:47 PM
Yep. WVU certainly can't compete with the Georgia's, Auburn's and the Oklahoma's of the world.

Let's see. WVU beat Georgia 38-35 in the 2005 Sugar Bowl

WVU beat Oklahoma 48-28 in the 2007 Fiesta Bowl

WVU beat Auburn 34-17 in the regular season of 2008.

Just saying...

Argument doesn't hold water, but carry on.

reds1869
08-12-2010, 08:42 PM
Let's see. WVU beat Georgia 38-35 in the 2005 Sugar Bowl

WVU beat Oklahoma 48-28 in the 2007 Fiesta Bowl

WVU beat Auburn 34-17 in the regular season of 2008.

Just saying...

Argument doesn't hold water, but carry on.

I'm pretty sure he's a WVU fan and was joking. Sadly misguided lot they are. ;)

MattyHo4Life
08-12-2010, 09:38 PM
Have you not been paying attention to the dozens of cheap shots the Cardinals have been putting out in the media the last few years? They've been talking trash for several years. Finally someone throws it back at them and they act like they're innocent bystanders.

My goodness, Matty. The laundry list of trash spewed by the Cards these last few years would be enormous.

Everybody talks trash...those comments by Rasmus and Lopez just don't seem like anything unusual. Players on all team make comments like that. It's unusual to see comments like BP's made though.

MattyHo4Life
08-12-2010, 09:46 PM
Tell ya what, no one is the bigger man in this scenario, you guys keep playing he said, she said... but fact is they all acted like a bunch of 1st graders when they were confronted by WORDS they reacted.

All and all kinda bush if you ask me.

You are exactly right Woy

Brutus
08-12-2010, 09:52 PM
Everybody talks trash...those comments by Rasmus and Lopez just don't seem like anything unusual. Players on all team make comments like that. It's unusual to see comments like BP's made though.

Rasmus specifically called another player's abillity "doo doo." The Cardinals specifically called another player (the same one, incidently) a cheater.

Those are about as derogatory remarks as you will ever see in this game. And those aren't unusual?

Listen man... I have no problem if you dislike Phillips' comments. I don't mind them considering he's calling others out for things they've done. But at least have the courage to admit your team has been doing this crap for the last few years. They have been ahead of the curve in trash-talking and excuse-making.

MattyHo4Life
08-12-2010, 10:12 PM
Rasmus specifically called another player's abillity "doo doo." The Cardinals specifically called another player (the same one, incidently) a cheater.

Those are about as derogatory remarks as you will ever see in this game. And those aren't unusual?

Players talk about pitchers throwing junk or "doo doo" all the time. He didn't say that he hates him.

WVRed
08-12-2010, 10:38 PM
Let's see. WVU beat Georgia 38-35 in the 2005 Sugar Bowl

WVU beat Oklahoma 48-28 in the 2007 Fiesta Bowl

WVU beat Auburn 34-17 in the regular season of 2008.

Just saying...

Argument doesn't hold water, but carry on.

I post in the Tavern quite a bit. The post was blatant sarcasm. HB is a Mountaineer through and through. :)


A better example would be Marshall thinking that WVU/Marshall is a rivalry.:cool:

Six of one. WVU isn't much better. Pitt is probably the closest thing WVU has to a true rival, but the secondary rivalries of Maryland, VaTech, Louisville, and now Cincinnati are examples of St Louis and Cincinnati right now. As long as one is competitive and the other is not, it can be interchangeable.

Who knows, maybe we will see the Pirates and Brewers as true rivals in our lifetime. :ughmamoru

Brutus
08-12-2010, 11:35 PM
Players talk about pitchers throwing junk or "doo doo" all the time. He didn't say that he hates him.

Show me where players make derogatory remarks about another player's talent "all the time."

I invite you to provide even a single example of that. In the game of baseball, calling someone's stuff "doo doo" is about as blatant as you will ever find. Hardly ever do players get that personal in the media.

I guess it's true what they say: a skunk doesn't smell his own stink.

RedlegNation
08-13-2010, 12:33 AM
All this sordid episode did for me was reinforce why I dislike Tony LaRussa so much. Sheesh, every time he opens his mouth, he confirms that Brandon Phillips was 100% correct.

GAC
08-13-2010, 06:23 AM
We are talking baseball here and the Red Sox have not won near half the games. Is there a rivalry? You bet there is. It is about the emotion involved in the games. There will always be the David versus Goliath appeal to rivalries...always.

Ohio State has won eight of the last ten versus Michigan. Is that rivalry still intact? You bet there is. It is about the emotion that is evoked when the two teams play and not any "half the games" criteria.


From 1974 to 1976, the Reds went 24-30 against the Dodgers.

Didn't really seem to effect the intensity of that rivelry.

Good posts gentlemen.

Spitball
08-13-2010, 10:25 PM
I was just watching the Cards versus Cubs game on television the Cards' network. Despite that great rivalry, Hrabosky and (I guess) McLaughlin kept dwelling on Phillips and expressing surprise at Cueto "too short" suspension. They also talked about the series coming up in September.

For the inning I watched, they seem more focused on the Reds than on the Cubs.

Spitball
08-14-2010, 01:00 AM
Brandon Phillips Cardinals: Why Reds vs. Cardinals Brawl Is Good For MLB
By Mike Pendleton


With the big showdown this week who ultimately will win the NL Central division?
Reds
Cardinals

Brandon Phillips is a great man and just made baseball really interesting. Unless you're a St. Louis Cardinals fan, or don't like the Reds, you should agree with that statement.

Phillips recently had some very colorful things to say about St. Louis that a ballplayer usually would say about their rival, comparing them to little female dogs.

With the Reds and Cardinals facing off this week in a showdown for first place in the National League Central division, Phillips, who suffered a leg injury over the weekend, made sure he would not miss this important series. After dropping the first game to St. Louis, the Reds were on the edge and, quite frankly, so was St. Louis after Phillips' comments.

During tonight's game (August 10th, 2010) while Phillips was in the batter's box moving his bat around, St. Louis catcher Yadier Molina proceeded to move Phillips' bat with his leg causing the two to go face-to-face. Exchanging words and letting each other know they don't like them or their family, the benches soon cleared.

How is any of this good for baseball? A brawl started, people were thrown around and mean things were said among players. The reason being this brawl is one that can make us smile because it's all for a fight for first place.

The Reds are clearly one of the best feel-good "Cinderella" stories in baseball this year, while the Cardinals are still the dominating force that they have been for the past five years and even longer.


Phillips mouthing off about the Cardinals is exactly what baseball needed. The brawl can be a franchise symbol for the Reds, with Phillips stepping up for his team as they face the biggest challenge of their season. While none of the experts could have predicted the Reds to be in a tie for first in early August, every Reds player believed they could be.

The Cardinals have been in first place during early August for many years and have no soft spot for the Reds. The fact that the Reds have sent a message to Major League Baseball that they will not back down should make fans proud.

While commissioner Bud Selig might soon be sending a suspension message to both teams, he really shouldn't. It's like when a bully gets beaten up in school you never want to punish the underdog (or nerd as they have been called).

The Reds and Cardinals will be fighting for first not only this season, but for many years to come, if both teams can keep their players together, which would be scary for the rest of the division. The other feel-good team in the National League, the San Diego Padres, should take notice.

Get a little mean, talk some trash and fight for first and that's how all eyes turn on baseball. Reds and Cardinals both bleed red, and it wouldn't surprise me to see a little blood shed by the end of the year.

Johnny Footstool
08-14-2010, 03:12 AM
The fact that the Reds have sent a message to Major League Baseball that they will not back down should make fans proud.

The "they will not back down" message falls flat, considering how meekly they played after the brawl, and how easily the Cardinals swept them out of first place.