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Defacto
08-11-2010, 07:18 PM
Please tell me. Multiple players have played for both teams and the Reds GM is the ex-Cardinals GM.

bshall2105
08-11-2010, 07:18 PM
Carpenter, Wainright

davereds24
08-11-2010, 07:19 PM
1 game.

oh and b****es

RedsIn07
08-11-2010, 07:22 PM
Carpenter, Wainright

Yep. Frontline Starter. We get an imitation one with Cueto and some #3's but that's about it.

Our offense is more balanced, especially around the infield. Defense is better. Bullpens about the same.

The teams just didn't come together in the series and the Cardinals did, we don't blow them out of the water but we're more evenly matched than this series showed.

Defacto
08-11-2010, 07:22 PM
Carpenter, Wainright

The Reds have more depth in the infield. The Cardinals don't.

bshall2105
08-11-2010, 07:25 PM
The Reds have more depth in the infield. The Cardinals don't.

Too bad for us Miguel Cairo doesn't trump starting pitching.

Vottomatic
08-11-2010, 07:26 PM
Yep. Frontline Starter. We get an imitation one with Cueto and some #3's but that's about it.

Our offense is more balanced, especially around the infield. Defense is better. Bullpens about the same.

The teams just didn't come together in the series and the Cardinals did, we don't blow them out of the water but we're more evenly matched than this series showed.

Agree completely. Reds made mistakes, Cardinals didn't. Gomes and Rolen's errors opened the floodgates. Shouldn't have been that bad.

We don't have any #1 starters to shut opposing offenses down. Cardinals have 2.

If Cardinals had made a few errors and opened a few floodgates like our usually good defense did, might have been a different story. We blinked, they didn't.

Next opponent.

bagz
08-11-2010, 07:49 PM
When we urinate we stand up. When they urinate they have to squat.
And just 1 game.

bagz
08-11-2010, 07:54 PM
They've got those 2 aces, and playoff experience. Not much else that we don't have. Our pitching is younger and has more depth but without a true ace. Our hitting is usually better and our defense is usually better.

bshall2105
08-11-2010, 07:55 PM
Don't forget enough money to pay Holliday, Pujols, and Carpenter.

Jack Burton
08-11-2010, 07:57 PM
HGH

benchpress
08-11-2010, 08:00 PM
Just not used to the spotlight...The Cards are much more experienced...

cbolt73
08-11-2010, 08:02 PM
A couple of elite players and some experience. Reds' youthful energy and enthusiasm closes that gap a bit. Experience comes with time and veteran leadership.

Defacto
08-11-2010, 08:09 PM
They've got those 2 aces, and playoff experience. Not much else that we don't have. Our pitching is younger and has more depth but without a true ace. Our hitting is usually better and our defense is usually better.

Rolen, Edmonds, Arroyo, Springer, Lincoln, Owings, Rhodes, Hernandez and Gomes all have playoff experience.

Vottomatic
08-11-2010, 08:11 PM
HGH

:beerme:

13 in hall
08-11-2010, 08:23 PM
Their outfield!! Say what you want but Jay and Rasmus have by far out performed Bruce and Stubbs in the last month. Not even comparing Holiday and Gomes. Their outfield produces and the Reds outfield has struggled to say the least.

GrandSlamCards
08-11-2010, 08:30 PM
Proven winners and classsy players.

Vottomatic
08-11-2010, 08:44 PM
Proven winners and classsy players.

Interesting. You complimented both the Cardinals and Reds with that statement.

Cardinals - "proven winners"
Reds - "classy players"

Interesting. :p:

Mr Larkin
08-11-2010, 08:58 PM
This season is a miracle for the Reds. The Cards are susposed to be here. Before the season, I thought the Reds could make it interesting, but that we were a year away. This series may have proven my point.

The Reds are an "up and coming " team. The Cards have been here and are still good. I hope the Reds bounce back, but I truly believe that this season is an early blessing and just a taste of what is to come.

We do not have a #1 at this point, but I think that we have tremendous potential #1's for years to come - Wood, Leake, Cueto, Bailey and even Chapman. Today was rough, as were the two days before that, but the future is bright.

If you would have told me in April that the Reds would trail the Cards by one game in mid-August, I would have been blown away and very excited. So, why should we be down when that is now a reality?

sivman17
08-11-2010, 09:02 PM
Tony LaRussa >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dusty Baker



:D jk... i'd say their top 3 pitchers are better than our top 3

MikeThierry
08-11-2010, 09:22 PM
I have to agree with the outfield being more productive for the Cards this year. Ever since Jay has made the show, all he has done is hit. Many were critical for the Cards getting rid of Ludwick but it gave a constant OBP guy a chance to play in front of Pujols. I think Jay will regress to the means but even if he regresses to a .300 hitter with a .390-.400 OBP, it will be more production than what Ludwick was giving the Cards. Its no mystery since the Ludwick trade that the Cards have been scoring something like 7 runs a game and hitting .322.

jmac
08-11-2010, 09:50 PM
STL reminds me a tad of the Diamondbacks team from a few years ago. (with a better offense)
It was Schilling & Johnson and that was about it. I said back then, it would be tougher for the Dbacks to make the playoffs than win it because once they got in, they could use basically 2 starters with an occasional 3rd rather than trying to win the divison with 3 "average or below" starters.
Like them or not, CC and Wainright are two of the better #1's in the NL. Larussa planned the rotation so we would get them. If the Reds played them in a series with the likes of Suppan, Garcia, Lohse, Penny , Hawksworth or anyone else, I would love our chances with any of our 5.
Point is....STL cant pitch these guys every game the rest of the season. Their 1 and 2 starters are a combined 29-9 and yet we are still only 1 game out. Over the long haul, I like our 3-5 starters much better than theirs.

Defacto
08-11-2010, 09:52 PM
STL reminds me a tad of the Diamondbacks team from a few years ago. (with a better offense)
It was Schilling & Johnson and that was about it. I said back then, it would be tougher for the Dbacks to make the playoffs than win it because once they got in, they could use basically 2 starters with an occasional 3rd rather than trying to win the divison with 3 "average or below" starters.
Like them or not, CC and Wainright are two of the better #1's in the NL. Larussa planned the rotation so we would get them. If the Reds played them in a series with the likes of Suppan, Garcia, Lohse, Penny , Hawksworth or anyone else, I would love our chances with any of our 5.
Point is....STL cant pitch these guys every game the rest of the season. Their 1 and 2 starters are a combined 29-9 and yet we are still only 1 game out. Over the long haul, I like our 3-5 starters much better than theirs.

Our 1-3 starters are pretty decent. I honestly didn't expect Garcia to win last night, but he's been a nice surprise as a rookie. 9 times out of 10 I expect Cueto to be good against the Cardinals, and last night was the 1 out of 10 times Cueto has been less than stellar against the Cardinals, which I didn't expect. Penny's probably done for the year.

MikeThierry
08-11-2010, 09:58 PM
The Cards actually have hit well against Cueto, traditionally. Yeah you have decent starters but I think it takes great starters to win against teams like the Phillies and Yankees, if teams make it that far.

By the way, speaking of Wainwright, I'm sorry to say this but Waino has perfected a new pitch. During the All Star Break, Lincecum taught him a more effective way to use his changeup. Since he has been using that the last couple of games, he has been lights out. He 2 hit the Marlins and he 2 hit the Reds today. Ironically, Lincecum may have taught him a pitch that could win Wainwright a Cy Young this year.

jmac
08-11-2010, 10:04 PM
Our 1-3 starters are pretty decent. I honestly didn't expect Garcia to win last night, but he's been a nice surprise as a rookie. 9 times out of 10 I expect Cueto to be good against the Cardinals, and last night wasn't one of them. Penny's probably done for the year.

I agree ours are decent. That is why we are where we are. BA, Cueto, Leake, and Wood keep you in every game for the most part. Yeah I thought they would have beat Garcia. Actually I felt good about the first two innings against CC. Votto just missed one. Edmonds lined out and Bruce hit one to the warning track. I thought it was going to be our night.

Defacto
08-11-2010, 10:11 PM
I agree ours are decent. That is why we are where we are. BA, Cueto, Leake, and Wood keep you in every game for the most part. Yeah I thought they would have beat Garcia. Actually I felt good about the first two innings against CC. Votto just missed one. Edmonds lined out and Bruce hit one to the warning track. I thought it was going to be our night.

Both of ours are decent. Leake's just hit a wall, like most rookies and some pitchers do, and they are going to start skipping his starts. Volquez just needs to get back to his '08 form. A rotation of Volquez/Cueto/Wood/Arroyo/Leake would be really good, that is if Volquez was in his '08 form and if Leake hasn't been struggling as of late.

Krawhitham
08-11-2010, 10:32 PM
What separates the Reds and Cardinals?

composure

Krawhitham
08-11-2010, 10:33 PM
Interesting. You complimented both the Cardinals and Reds with that statement.

Cardinals - "proven winners"
Reds - "classy players"

Interesting. :p:

Yeah Phillips was real classy

lidspinner
08-11-2010, 10:49 PM
what separates the Reds and Cards is payroll....plain and simple....baseball is the worst sport in the professional ranks when comparing teams.....sure we have alot more parity this year than years past but baseball has a giant black hole in our system and teams that spend more are at a major advantage versus the lesser spending teams....until we have a salary cap or re-allign teams in comparison with their payroll then we will be a flawed system.

its like this....Brandon Phillips hates the Cardinals, but he would take a paycheck from them in a heartbeat if they were the high bidder, as anyone should....but it gets sad when the high bidders are the same usual suspects. Not blaming the Cardinals as a whole, cause they do sellout and have great attendance records to allow them to spend.....but its a flawed setup and it will never allow equal comparisons to be made.

so I ask you all this...cardinals fans and Reds fans the same....I ask if the Reds had the same payroll flex as the Cardinals and vise versa who would be the better team? Its not even close. Sure it sounds like sour grapes, but sometimes sour grapes are the only thing on the menu and you have to eat what is fed to you....facts are facts boys and girls....

So you ask what separates the Reds and Cardinals, its money...plain and simple...MONEY...Give us the money to have Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay and the Cards limp away this weekend.

Defacto
08-11-2010, 10:55 PM
what separates the Reds and Cards is payroll....plain and simple....baseball is the worst sport in the professional ranks when comparing teams.....sure we have alot more parity this year than years past but baseball has a giant black hole in our system and teams that spend more are at a major advantage versus the lesser spending teams....until we have a salary cap or re-allign teams in comparison with their payroll then we will be a flawed system.

its like this....Brandon Phillips hates the Cardinals, but he would take a paycheck from them in a heartbeat if they were the high bidder, as anyone should....but it gets sad when the high bidders are the same usual suspects. Not blaming the Cardinals as a whole, cause they do sellout and have great attendance records to allow them to spend.....but its a flawed setup and it will never allow equal comparisons to be made.

so I ask you all this...cardinals fans and Reds fans the same....I ask if the Reds had the same payroll flex as the Cardinals and vise versa who would be the better team? Its not even close. Sure it sounds like sour grapes, but sometimes sour grapes are the only thing on the menu and you have to eat what is fed to you....facts are facts boys and girls....

So you ask what separates the Reds and Cardinals, its money...plain and simple...MONEY...Give us the money to have Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay and the Cards limp away this weekend.

Look at the Rays and Twins, they are considered small market teams and look how they have performed. On the contrary, look at the Pirates. Money doesn't make teams, the minors do.

sivman17
08-11-2010, 10:57 PM
what separates the Reds and Cards is payroll....plain and simple....baseball is the worst sport in the professional ranks when comparing teams.....sure we have alot more parity this year than years past but baseball has a giant black hole in our system and teams that spend more are at a major advantage versus the lesser spending teams....until we have a salary cap or re-allign teams in comparison with their payroll then we will be a flawed system.

its like this....Brandon Phillips hates the Cardinals, but he would take a paycheck from them in a heartbeat if they were the high bidder, as anyone should....but it gets sad when the high bidders are the same usual suspects. Not blaming the Cardinals as a whole, cause they do sellout and have great attendance records to allow them to spend.....but its a flawed setup and it will never allow equal comparisons to be made.

so I ask you all this...cardinals fans and Reds fans the same....I ask if the Reds had the same payroll flex as the Cardinals and vise versa who would be the better team? Its not even close. Sure it sounds like sour grapes, but sometimes sour grapes are the only thing on the menu and you have to eat what is fed to you....facts are facts boys and girls....

So you ask what separates the Reds and Cardinals, its money...plain and simple...MONEY...Give us the money to have Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay and the Cards limp away this weekend.

I was curious after reading this so I looked it up...

2008
Reds: $74,117,695
Cards: $99,624,449

2009
Reds: $73,558,500
Cards: $77,605,109

2010
Reds: $72,386,544
Cards: $93,540,753

Looks like you might be on to something there. However, this fact has been known in MLB for years so it's nothing really new. Just the way it is. The Cards also get much better attendance than the Reds...

lidspinner
08-11-2010, 10:58 PM
Defacto

true, as the Reds are winning as well....but that is the exception, not the rule....how many winning years has the Yanks and Red Sox had? what about the Cards? Dodgers? Angels? Those teams that spend almost always win...plain and simple.

Yes the minors help alot, but money sure dont hurt. IF we could have had the money to sign Doc Hallady this offseason with that extra money between the Reds and Cards, we would be a different team.....just as the Cards would be different if they did not have the money to sign Matt Holliday.

sivman17
08-11-2010, 11:05 PM
In 2009, there were 9 teams that had a team payroll of over $100 million. Of those 9 teams, 5 of them made the playoffs.

That means that of the 21 teams that had a payroll under $100 million, only 3 of them made the playoffs.

That's kind of mind wrenching if you ask me. Obviously, the Cards, Rockies, and Twins were able to make the playoffs with lesser payrolls, but if you have more money it greatly increases your chances of winning.

If you have a $100 million payroll, you essentially have a 55% chance of making the playoffs. If you have less than that, you have a 14% chance. This is obviously simplifying things, but those are kind of ridiculous numbers that you can't ignore.

Defacto
08-11-2010, 11:05 PM
Defacto

true, as the Reds are winning as well....but that is the exception, not the rule....how many winning years has the Yanks and Red Sox had? what about the Cards? Dodgers? Angels? Those teams that spend almost always win...plain and simple.

Yes the minors help alot, but money sure dont hurt. IF we could have had the money to sign Doc Hallady this offseason with that extra money between the Reds and Cards, we would be a different team.....just as the Cards would be different if they did not have the money to sign Matt Holliday.


Point taken. I was just pointing out a few teams that don't always spend money and are winning. If the Cardinals didn't sign Holliday, they'd probably have another OFer or IFer and a different SP besides Penny.

RedsIn07
08-11-2010, 11:38 PM
Their outfield!! Say what you want but Jay and Rasmus have by far out performed Bruce and Stubbs in the last month. Not even comparing Holiday and Gomes. Their outfield produces and the Reds outfield has struggled to say the least.

Jon Jay is due to crash hard. There's nothing in his history that really screams anything remotely like the line he's been putting up.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 01:03 AM
Please tell me. Multiple players have played for both teams and the Reds GM is the ex-Cardinals GM.


Please tell me. Multiple players have played for both teams and the Reds GM is the ex-Cardinals GM.

One word, leadership. Reds talent wise are pretty well matched up to the Cards, but it's the intangibles where the teams differ.

It's the same reason a guy like Randy Moss can play like **** for the Raiders but be the best receiver in the league for the Patriots. Patriots have a lot of strong leaders that can push a player like that. When a me first player like Phillips dominates your club house you are lacking the leadership.

Reds are a team that is moving in the right direction. Jockety is a great GM and is in the process of making a once great franchise competitive again for the first time in a decade. His best move by far was bringing in Rolen to try to change the character of the club. Rolen is a leader and although he doesn't have the talent of a guy like votto anymore he's still a good guy to build a club around.

Problem is there aren't enough leaders like Rolen on your team, and that's what separates them for the Cards. Most of the team is still pretty young, and while they seem to be ok they don't offer enough of a leadership presence to counteract an idiot like Phillips.

The cardinals would never have an idiot spout off like Phillips did. The reason is there are several leaders in the club house that would not stand for such thing. It's not that the Cards are devoid of thug like players, as I'm sure you all have fond memories of Felipe Lopez. The difference is that there are enough strong leaders in the cards club house to not allow such kind of antics. And it's not just about spouting off, it's about pushing yourself everyday, something Phillips in the past has been notorious about.

Reds are a team that could be good for the next several years, but they aren't going to win anything until more of the team starts acting like Rolen and less like Phillips. It would also help to get rid of Baker.

Just a cards fan thoughts on it.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 01:07 AM
Interesting. You complimented both the Cardinals and Reds with that statement.

Cardinals - "proven winners"
Reds - "classy players"

Interesting. :p:

Reds have some classy players they just all happen to be former cardinals.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 01:15 AM
what separates the Reds and Cards is payroll....plain and simple....baseball is the worst sport in the professional ranks when comparing teams.....sure we have alot more parity this year than years past but baseball has a giant black hole in our system and teams that spend more are at a major advantage versus the lesser spending teams....until we have a salary cap or re-allign teams in comparison with their payroll then we will be a flawed system.

its like this....Brandon Phillips hates the Cardinals, but he would take a paycheck from them in a heartbeat if they were the high bidder, as anyone should....but it gets sad when the high bidders are the same usual suspects. Not blaming the Cardinals as a whole, cause they do sellout and have great attendance records to allow them to spend.....but its a flawed setup and it will never allow equal comparisons to be made.

so I ask you all this...cardinals fans and Reds fans the same....I ask if the Reds had the same payroll flex as the Cardinals and vise versa who would be the better team? Its not even close. Sure it sounds like sour grapes, but sometimes sour grapes are the only thing on the menu and you have to eat what is fed to you....facts are facts boys and girls....

So you ask what separates the Reds and Cardinals, its money...plain and simple...MONEY...Give us the money to have Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay and the Cards limp away this weekend.

Please, St Louis ranks 13th in payroll. Yet they routinely beat out higher spending teams. St Louis isn't any larger of a media market than Cincinatti we just support our team more. If you guys would sell 3 million tickets you could spend just as much as we do.

And besides ask the Red Sox and the Yankees how much their bloated salaries are helping them in the division against the Rays.

BurgervilleBuck
08-12-2010, 02:38 AM
Look at the Rays and Twins, they are considered small market teams and look how they have performed. On the contrary, look at the Pirates. Money doesn't make teams, the minors do.
Oh, heck, look at the Cubs.

Razzle
08-12-2010, 03:08 AM
And besides ask the Red Sox and the Yankees how much their bloated salaries are helping them in the division against the Rays.

One team that built up top picks for a decade and now has one of the better front offices in baseball doesn't make up for the 10 other small market teams that fill the cellars of their division. There is definitely a discrepancy among the have and have nots in baseball and because you still can win if the stars align perfectly with a lesser payroll doesn't mean it's fair to those teams.

Kingspoint
08-12-2010, 05:06 AM
What separates the Cardinals and the REDS?

1. The Cardinals have more money to spend on premium starting pitching.

2. The Cardinals expect to win and know how to turn it up a notch in important series.

3. The REDS have a new group of players who aren't used to losing.

4. This seems like the classic "Tortoise and the Hare" race where the Cards are the over-confident Hare and the REDS are the steady Tortoise that wins the race.

5. Seems like the Cards only goal is to win the Division where it seems like the REDS only goal is to continue to improve (as evidenced by their 6-1-1 record in series since the All-Star break).

6. Seems like the Cards are more worried about us than we are about them.

7. We have the NL MVP in Votto.

8. The REDS are a better road team than the Cards.

9. The REDS have more tools available to them in the minors (Balentien, Alonso, Dorn, Joseph, Chapman, Bailey, Burton, Owings, Wood, and others)

10. We have a better Forum.

Kingspoint
08-12-2010, 05:08 AM
One team that built up top picks for a decade and now has one of the better front offices in baseball doesn't make up for the 10 other small market teams that fill the cellars of their division. There is definitely a discrepancy among the have and have nots in baseball and because you still can win if the stars align perfectly with a lesser payroll doesn't mean it's fair to those teams.

True. Would love to see a salary cap and better league revenue sharing. And send Houston to the AL West.

lidspinner
08-12-2010, 09:57 AM
Please, St Louis ranks 13th in payroll. Yet they routinely beat out higher spending teams. St Louis isn't any larger of a media market than Cincinatti we just support our team more. If you guys would sell 3 million tickets you could spend just as much as we do.

And besides ask the Red Sox and the Yankees how much their bloated salaries are helping them in the division against the Rays.


yadi....I am just saying that you guys spend more money than we do, plain and simple.....is it attendance that causes you to open your wallets on more players? maybe it is, but the simple fact is that you guys have a payroll higher than ours by 20 million. you cannot tell me we would be the same team with an extra 20 mill on our roster....or you guys would be the same with 20 mill off your roster.......

I would say the Reds are doing great for having the payroll we do....we are 1 game from being tied and we are playing crappy baseball....the Cards are playing well above average baseball since the ASB and you only have a 1 game lead.....with our payroll and our weak outfield, I would say the Reds are in great shape to contend for the title of the Central......and we are doing it with 20mill less and about 11 more minor leagurers waiting in the wings to come on up.....even with the sweep, I am pumped about our Reds....

lidspinner
08-12-2010, 10:00 AM
True. Would love to see a salary cap and better league revenue sharing. And send Houston to the AL West.

a blogger for espn the mag did a write up on div based on payroll......so essentially you changed div I think once every 3 years according to his article....at first read i did not like it, but after thinking about it for awhile, I am warming up to it.....it will take awhile to get used to but if Bud Selig is going to just sit on his bum, this is the only option.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 10:17 AM
What separates the Cardinals and the REDS?

1. The Cardinals have more money to spend on premium starting pitching.

2. The Cardinals expect to win and know how to turn it up a notch in important series.

3. The REDS have a new group of players who aren't used to losing.

4. This seems like the classic "Tortoise and the Hare" race where the Cards are the over-confident Hare and the REDS are the steady Tortoise that wins the race.

5. Seems like the Cards only goal is to win the Division where it seems like the REDS only goal is to continue to improve (as evidenced by their 6-1-1 record in series since the All-Star break).

6. Seems like the Cards are more worried about us than we are about them.

7. We have the NL MVP in Votto.

8. The REDS are a better road team than the Cards.

9. The REDS have more tools available to them in the minors (Balentien, Alonso, Dorn, Joseph, Chapman, Bailey, Burton, Owings, Wood, and others)

10. We have a better Forum.

1. Waino came from a trade when he was in the minors, Carp was a player taken off the injury heap, and Garcia is from our farm system. Our pitching has a lot more to do with dave duncan than it does money.

4. I could have agreed with this except it seems the Reds finally woke up the cards, I think we'll win the division handily now. But I am hoping the Reds win the wild card.

5. Cards are 16-7 since the break not sure what you're talking about

6. Should ask Brandon Phillips about that

7. Very doubtful even if he is having a slightly better season.

8. True but cards did pretty good on the road this week.

9. no argument.

10. Actually again no argument this is a pretty nice forum. You don't seem to have the trolls we have at stltoday

TheBigLebowski
08-12-2010, 10:21 AM
1. Waino came from a trade when he was in the minors, Carp was a player taken off the injury heap, and Garcia is from our farm system. Our pitching has a lot more to do with dave duncan than it does money.

4. I could have agreed with this except it seems the Reds finally woke up the cards, I think we'll win the division handily now. But I am hoping the Reds win the wild card.

5. Cards are 16-7 since the break not sure what you're talking about

6. Should ask Brandon Phillips about that

7. Very doubtful even if he is having a slightly better season.

8. True but cards did pretty good on the road this week.

9. no argument.

10. Actually again no argument this is a pretty nice forum. You don't seem to have the trolls we have at stltoday

You seem to be a pretty reasonable guy so I will not heap you in with the bunch to which I refer, but we have been trolled to death by Cards fans this week. I have been a member of this site for over a decade and I have never seen anything like it.

texasdave
08-12-2010, 10:58 AM
The Cardinals have done a fine job of amassing talent. But what that 20 million extra does do is allow a team to hold on to talent longer. If the Reds have 20 mill extra to spend each year then probably Adam Dunn is in the middle of our lineup instead of Jonny Gomes. (Although that can be debated) Or, if not Dunn, that 20 million allows the Reds to go out and get a bat over the winter instead of sitting on their hands. The Reds have enough minor league trading chips, but just couldn't afford to take on salary. Money makes a big difference.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 12:31 PM
You seem to be a pretty reasonable guy so I will not heap you in with the bunch to which I refer, but we have been trolled to death by Cards fans this week. I have been a member of this site for over a decade and I have never seen anything like it.

there are idiots in every fan base, the Stltoday forum had a Reds fan last night under the name Mcgwirepleads the fifth post a topic that the cardinals are a bunch of *****es and then in the post just wrote FU CK the Cardinals. I found it pretty amusing since the Reds just got swept.

There are idiots in every fandom and it's just part of the fun of a rivalry blossoming. I'll talk baseball with any group of fans, except of the course the idiot Brewer fans who actually brag about their "Wild Card Championship".

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 12:34 PM
The Cardinals have done a fine job of amassing talent. But what that 20 million extra does do is allow a team to hold on to talent longer. If the Reds have 20 mill extra to spend each year then probably Adam Dunn is in the middle of our lineup instead of Jonny Gomes. (Although that can be debated) Or, if not Dunn, that 20 million allows the Reds to go out and get a bat over the winter instead of sitting on their hands. The Reds have enough minor league trading chips, but just couldn't afford to take on salary. Money makes a big difference.

cubs have a 130 million to 140 million to spend, where does that get them. Like I said before the difference between the Cards and Reds in salary is equal to the contract of Matt Holliday. That's significant only if you make the right player evaluations, the Cubs took that same money and signed Alphonso Soriano.

And more importantly Reds fans only have themselves to blame for the team not having more money. St Louis isn't a bigger media market than Cincinatti, we just support our team. We routinely put 40 k fans in the seats, in Cinci you guys bring in like 20k. If you want your team to spend more money give them a reason to.

lidspinner
08-12-2010, 02:06 PM
cubs have a 130 million to 140 million to spend, where does that get them. Like I said before the difference between the Cards and Reds in salary is equal to the contract of Matt Holliday. That's significant only if you make the right player evaluations, the Cubs took that same money and signed Alphonso Soriano.

And more importantly Reds fans only have themselves to blame for the team not having more money. St Louis isn't a bigger media market than Cincinatti, we just support our team. We routinely put 40 k fans in the seats, in Cinci you guys bring in like 20k. If you want your team to spend more money give them a reason to.

I agree with the attendance, but we fans cannot help what the owner spends...sure we can go to more games and we will.....but the question was asked what separates the Reds and the answer is simple, MONEY..20+ mill to be exact. You give us Matt Holliday and lets call it even. Would that make a difference? That is the question at hand, what separates us 2 teams and that is the bold face answer....The Cards are a better team because of payroll, plain and simple.....its not a debatable topic.

I give the Cards credit....they have sustained a great team for awhile now...alot has to do with money....alot has to do with their foundation as a whole....but money is the key.....I would say 90% of the time, if you spend money, you contend for the playoffs. If you dont, you stay at home....

The Reds are contending and not spending money, so they are the exception this year....if they would just spend 90+mill, or god for bid a 100mill then we would be the talk of the National League and it would not be close....could you imagine this team next year with Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee and a stud LF'er or maybe a all star SS? We would be dominant. But the fact remains that we spend 70mill so we need to build from within and we cannot sign the Matt Hollidays, we cannot keep the Alberts and the Carpenters....we will have to let Joey Votto go at some point if we dont raise payroll.....

Money is the separation from Cardinal to Red. bottom line

lidspinner
08-12-2010, 02:08 PM
cubs have a 130 million to 140 million to spend, where does that get them. Like I said before the difference between the Cards and Reds in salary is equal to the contract of Matt Holliday. That's significant only if you make the right player evaluations, the Cubs took that same money and signed Alphonso Soriano.

And more importantly Reds fans only have themselves to blame for the team not having more money. St Louis isn't a bigger media market than Cincinatti, we just support our team. We routinely put 40 k fans in the seats, in Cinci you guys bring in like 20k. If you want your team to spend more money give them a reason to.


Dont forget that Soriano, up till this year has been great for the Cubs on offense....the problem with him is no where to hide him in the field.....I am to busy to go look stats up but I would be intersted to see his stats compared to Matt Hollidays over the last 5 years.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 03:15 PM
Dont forget that Soriano, up till this year has been great for the Cubs on offense....the problem with him is no where to hide him in the field.....I am to busy to go look stats up but I would be intersted to see his stats compared to Matt Hollidays over the last 5 years.

Soriano last year was horrible, and has never been worth the money he was paid. Holliday has pretty much always posted around a 900 OPS except for his near MVP year when he posted near a 1000.

Razzle
08-12-2010, 03:16 PM
Dont forget that Soriano, up till this year has been great for the Cubs on offense....the problem with him is no where to hide him in the field.....I am to busy to go look stats up but I would be intersted to see his stats compared to Matt Hollidays over the last 5 years.

Soriano has actually hit alright this year, last year was the year he stunk. Part of that was due to injury I'm sure. He and Holliday are and have been completely different players. Holliday has more of an OBP weighted OPS, while Soriano's has been pretty SLG based. Then you also have trouble due to Holliday's Coors numbers. Regardless, since 2006 here are some of their numbers:

Avg/OBP/SLG
Holliday: .323/.396/.559
Soriano: .273/.334/.522

OPS+
Holliday: 142
Soriano: 116

WAR
Holliday: 27.2
Soriano: 19.2

Jack Burton
08-12-2010, 03:20 PM
I'm sure PuHGH-jols introduced Holliday to his trainer. ;)

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 03:25 PM
I agree with the attendance, but we fans cannot help what the owner spends...sure we can go to more games and we will.....but the question was asked what separates the Reds and the answer is simple, MONEY..20+ mill to be exact. You give us Matt Holliday and lets call it even. Would that make a difference? That is the question at hand, what separates us 2 teams and that is the bold face answer....The Cards are a better team because of payroll, plain and simple.....its not a debatable topic.

I give the Cards credit....they have sustained a great team for awhile now...alot has to do with money....alot has to do with their foundation as a whole....but money is the key.....I would say 90% of the time, if you spend money, you contend for the playoffs. If you dont, you stay at home....

The Reds are contending and not spending money, so they are the exception this year....if they would just spend 90+mill, or god for bid a 100mill then we would be the talk of the National League and it would not be close....could you imagine this team next year with Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee and a stud LF'er or maybe a all star SS? We would be dominant. But the fact remains that we spend 70mill so we need to build from within and we cannot sign the Matt Hollidays, we cannot keep the Alberts and the Carpenters....we will have to let Joey Votto go at some point if we dont raise payroll.....

Money is the separation from Cardinal to Red. bottom line

Again it's not money it's spending money smartly. Would you rather spend 25 million for Arroyo and Harrang or 22 million for Wainwright and Carpenter? It's funny hearing from Reds fans how much money the Cards have, when all you hear from the Cardinals fans is *****ing about how cheap our owner is.

Cardinals are very careful about who they extend and who they sign to multi year contracts and because of that they are able to be successful every year.

But much more than the money it's the character of the players on the team. Big salaries may get you big talent but if you don't have the right atmosphere to motivate these overplayed payers then it won't matter. The cubs are a great example of that. And Jocketty is a character kind of guy, and appears to be trying to inject that into the Red's clubhouse by bringing all these old cardinals over.

On that subject Bernie Miklasz who has pretty good access to Jocko had this to say about Phillips

* Reds GM Walt Jocketty is a conservative and dignified baseball man; he doesn't like a lot of junk and noise going on, and he wants his ballclub to project a classy image. In that context, I would not be surprised at all to see the Reds try to move Brandon Phillips at the end of the season. Jocketty didn't say much publicly about Phillips this week, though he did tell me it "wasn't smart" for his 2B to pop off. But privately, Jocketty is seething. The Reds had a great opportunity to assert themselves in the NL Central race, only to have one of their central figures go nuts and inflame the Cardinals with hateful comments. And instead of shutting up after the initial outburst, Phillips made it worse by running his mouth again before the second game -- and this, after manager Dusty Baker (supposedly) told him to cool it. This will not sit well with Jocketty. Not at all. He brought Scott Rolen and Orlando Cabrera into Cincinnati for a reason: to set a better, positive example for the younger Reds. Jocketty doesn't want a circus act in the middle of his clubhouse.

CardsFan4Life
08-12-2010, 03:55 PM
Easy....

Smart, veteran players (like the Cardinals) VS. uneducated, young players (like the Reds).

Defacto
08-12-2010, 04:12 PM
Easy....

Smart, veteran players (like the Cardinals) VS. uneducated, young players (like the Reds).

I'm a Cardinals fan and that is one of the most wrong things I have heard. Edmonds, Rolen, Arroyo, Hernandez, Phillips(even though I don't like what he said and Gomes are all veteran and smart players, as well as Cairo.

Razzle
08-12-2010, 04:15 PM
Easy....

Smart, veteran players (like the Cardinals) VS. uneducated, young players (like the Reds).

I love the Cards, but if you've watched this team and seen some of the baserunning blunders (among other things) that I have and you can still call this team smart, you are watching a different team than I am. This is one of the most unfundamental teams that LaRussa has had.

Stelmacki
08-12-2010, 04:17 PM
I'm sure PuHGH-jols introduced Holliday to his trainer. ;)

I thought trolls weren't allowed here?

Defacto
08-12-2010, 04:17 PM
I love the Cards, but if you've watched this team and seen some of the baserunning blunders (among other things) that I have and you can still call this team smart, you are watching a different team than I am. This is one of the most unfundamental teams that LaRussa has had.

Agreed. This season has been one of the worst team's the Cardinals have fielded fundamentally wise.

lidspinner
08-12-2010, 07:11 PM
it still comes down to money....sure we spend our money bad on Harang, but he is gone after this year....probably Bronson too....so give us your payroll and i see us being more equal.....right now, that way it is set up, your supposed to beat us. If you and the Cubs dont finish 1 and 2 then you have failed....bottom line. When you spend money, you should win. When you dont, you try your hardest and if it dont pan out, you look towards next year.....if the Cards dont win the division and dont win the wildcard, then you guys are losers.....if the Reds dont, we just suck it up and move on cause we are a cheap team......I hate it, I hate the system....but thats what it is....spend in the neighborhood of 100mill and you dam well better make the playoffs.

mckbearcat48
08-12-2010, 07:14 PM
it still comes down to money....sure we spend our money bad on Harang, but he is gone after this year....probably Bronson too....so give us your payroll and i see us being more equal.....right now, that way it is set up, your supposed to beat us. If you and the Cubs dont finish 1 and 2 then you have failed....bottom line. When you spend money, you should win. When you dont, you try your hardest and if it dont pan out, you look towards next year.....if the Cards dont win the division and dont win the wildcard, then you guys are losers.....if the Reds dont, we just suck it up and move on cause we are a cheap team......I hate it, I hate the system....but thats what it is....spend in the neighborhood of 100mill and you dam well better make the playoffs.

Have you asked the Cubs about this yet?

New York Red
08-12-2010, 07:17 PM
They've got those 2 aces, and playoff experience.
That sums it up, in my opinion.

Razzle
08-12-2010, 07:20 PM
Have you asked the Cubs about this yet?

Or the Astros? Their payroll has been around the same as the Cards for a good portion of the last decade. Spending helps, but the Cards have also had one of the better front offices in baseball for the last decade. It also doesn't hurt that they drafted a guy in the 13th round that's been pretty good.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 09:25 PM
Or the Astros? Their payroll has been around the same as the Cards for a good portion of the last decade. Spending helps, but the Cards have also had one of the better front offices in baseball for the last decade. It also doesn't hurt that they drafted a guy in the 13th round that's been pretty good.

exactly money doesn't mean nothing if you don't know how to spend it. For what it's worth I'd look for Jocketty to make a splash with the payroll he'll have freed up in the offense after he dumps two overpaid mediocre pitchers. And with the money he's got laying around I could see the Reds bringing in a guy like Werth or Crawford.

Sham
08-12-2010, 09:31 PM
The fact that the Reds have murderers (attempted) on their roster. Cueto is OJ.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 09:54 PM
it still comes down to money....sure we spend our money bad on Harang, but he is gone after this year....probably Bronson too....so give us your payroll and i see us being more equal.....right now, that way it is set up, your supposed to beat us. If you and the Cubs dont finish 1 and 2 then you have failed....bottom line. When you spend money, you should win. When you dont, you try your hardest and if it dont pan out, you look towards next year.....if the Cards dont win the division and dont win the wildcard, then you guys are losers.....if the Reds dont, we just suck it up and move on cause we are a cheap team......I hate it, I hate the system....but thats what it is....spend in the neighborhood of 100mill and you dam well better make the playoffs.

the bolded teams made the playoffs last year

1 NY YANKEES $206,811,689
2 NY METS $139,102,235
3 CHICAGO CUBS $137,945,612
4 DETROIT $129,598,000
5 PHILADELPHIA $127,957,380
6 BOSTON $122,624,689
7 LA ANGELS $116,709,000
8 LA DODGERS $109,176,603
9 HOUSTON $105,035,000
10 SEATTLE $99,346,926
11 CHICAGO WHITE SOX $98,268,500
12 ATLANTA $97,692,834
13 SAINT LOUIS $93,612,500
14 SAN FRANCISCO $88,777,106
15 CLEVELAND $81,325,900
16 TORONTO $80,493,657
17 MILWAUKEE $80,280,861
18 BALTIMORE $77,169,792
19 TEXAS $76,239,840
20 KANSAS CITY $76,021,243
21 COLORADO $74,730,533
22 ARIZONA $72,475,000
23 CINCINNATI $71,858,500
24 MINNESOTA $67,899,267
25 TAMPA BAY $65,126,368
26 OAKLAND $61,896,066
27 WASHINGTON $61,455,049
28 PITTSBURGH $52,643,000
29 SAN DIEGO $42,746,653
30 FLORIDA $35,483,951

Obviously the Yankees did well but 3 of the top 4 spenders did not make the playoffs. Meanwhile the twins made it with with less money than the Reds made the playoffs and Colorado did as well with virtually the same amount of money.

Looking at the 8 teams you have the yankees with more money than god, both LA teams the Phillies, the Red Sox, who are big market teams. You have the cards who are right below that tier, they draw big crowds but have a small TV market. Then you have two small teams the twins, and the rockies.

So what do all of these teams have in common except maybe the Rockies? They are all teams with very good front offices, that are run extremely well. Compare that to the Mets, the Cubs, the Stros.

You can ***** about money all you want, but money does guarantee you'll win, and not having it doesn't guarantee you'll lose. It's all about having a good organization. Trust in Jocketty if anyone can establish that type of organization it's Jocko.

lidspinner
08-12-2010, 09:58 PM
Have you asked the Cubs about this yet?

no....we are discussing what separates the Reds and Cards....I briefly talked about them in my post above but the question is about the Reds and Cards...and the Cards have a higher payroll than the Reds so you should be able to beat us....you have 3 ace starters, a 1st ballet hall of famer, a stud LF, the greatest coach in the world and an OF that screams all star....you tell me how in the beejeesus are we only 1 game behind you all? The simple fact that you have not put this division away and be up by 15 games is an utter embarrassment and all Cardinal fans should consider it a failure to not sweep us. If the Reds can muster up the strength to win this div, then the Cardinals should ask to quit MLB. You guys want to act as if TLR is gods gift to coaching, well what is he doing with the team this year? he is 1 game up in a division where there is nothing but you and the little ole Reds, the 70mill/year Reds.....the Pirates, need I say more about the Pirates....the Astros which have admitted to rebuilding, the Brewers, a team that is trying to lose to get a better draft status so they can start trying to replace Prince when he is gone......IMO the Cards have failed miserably this year, even with a 1 game lead....in no way shape or form should you all be happy...wait till your up by 10 games then come back and gloat all you want....but right now, the reds are breathing down your neck and running up your behind in an effort to have more wins than you all at the end of the year...all the while you guys are trying to hard to beat just the Reds....

but yes, the Cards should be light years ahead of the Reds....20mill could go a long way with our rotation or OF.

disclaimer: I am still upset over the sweep so please take my post as a fan simply releasing steam...I mean no ill will towards any Cardinal fan....just my way of having some good baseball talk while throwing some darts at you alls team...LOL :)

bshall2105
08-12-2010, 10:03 PM
That extra 22 million could have been the difference between being able to trade for and sign Cliff Lee, which gives us a legitimate ace, or relying on Arroyo to be something he is not. The Cardinals can afford 2 aces and 2 superstar hitters. That's something the Reds either can't or won't do.

Razzle
08-12-2010, 10:10 PM
no....we are discussing what separates the Reds and Cards....I briefly talked about them in my post above but the question is about the Reds and Cards...and the Cards have a higher payroll than the Reds so you should be able to beat us....you have 3 ace starters, a 1st ballet hall of famer, a stud LF, the greatest coach in the world and an OF that screams all star....you tell me how in the beejeesus are we only 1 game behind you all? The simple fact that you have not put this division away and be up by 15 games is an utter embarrassment and all Cardinal fans should consider it a failure to not sweep us. If the Reds can muster up the strength to win this div, then the Cardinals should ask to quit MLB. You guys want to act as if TLR is gods gift to coaching, well what is he doing with the team this year? he is 1 game up in a division where there is nothing but you and the little ole Reds, the 70mill/year Reds.....the Pirates, need I say more about the Pirates....the Astros which have admitted to rebuilding, the Brewers, a team that is trying to lose to get a better draft status so they can start trying to replace Prince when he is gone......IMO the Cards have failed miserably this year, even with a 1 game lead....in no way shape or form should you all be happy...wait till your up by 10 games then come back and gloat all you want....but right now, the reds are breathing down your neck and running up your behind in an effort to have more wins than you all at the end of the year...all the while you guys are trying to hard to beat just the Reds....

but yes, the Cards should be light years ahead of the Reds....20mill could go a long way with our rotation or OF.

disclaimer: I am still upset over the sweep so please take my post as a fan simply releasing steam...I mean no ill will towards any Cardinal fan....just my way of having some good baseball talk while throwing some darts at you alls team...LOL :)

Before I saw the disclaimer I was about to point out something along those lines. :)

Honestly though, I think the rest of your post oversells the expectations of the Cards a bit. Nobody is even close to being 15 games better than this Reds team not even a team with near three times the payroll of the Reds, the Yankees. While I agree the extra 20 mil would do wonders for a team like the Reds, (and inevitably I think payroll will increase as the players gain experience and get better and the fans start selling out the place more frequently) I just don't think it's fair to just put the Cards as the only team that should be embarrassed should the Reds win the division. If the Cards should be then so too should the Astros and Cubs. However, nobody should be embarrassed if the Reds win this division as they are a good club.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 10:10 PM
That extra 22 million could have been the difference between being able to trade for and sign Cliff Lee, which gives us a legitimate ace, or relying on Arroyo to be something he is not. The Cardinals can afford 2 aces and 2 superstar hitters. That's something the Reds either can't or won't do.

Seriously when you Reds fans ***** about money you really tend to ignore the facts. Arroyo and Harrang = 25 Million dollars. Carpenter and Waino = 22.5 million dollars.

Waino was traded by the braves to the cards as a prospect, Carp was picked off the ash heap, Pujols was drafted in the 13th round, Holliday is the only player that I can remember that the Cards have ever gone out and paid big money for. The cards won't be signing Cliff Lee either.

Sham
08-12-2010, 10:14 PM
Ash heap?

bshall2105
08-12-2010, 10:15 PM
Seriously when you Reds fans ***** about money you really tend to ignore the facts. Arroyo and Harrang = 25 Million dollars. Carpenter and Waino = 22.5 million dollars.

Waino was traded by the braves to the cards as a prospect, Carp was picked off the ash heap, Pujols was drafted in the 13th round, Holliday is the only player that I can remember that the Cards have ever gone out and paid big money for. The cards won't be signing Cliff Lee either.

Those are just 2 players. There is still a 20 million+ payroll differential. If they could afford to go up to 93 million than Cliff Lee would be on this team IMO.

Razzle
08-12-2010, 10:18 PM
Those are just 2 players. There is still a 20 million+ payroll differential. If they could afford to go up to 93 million than Cliff Lee would be on this team IMO.

Cliff Lee only cost around $4 mil the rest of the year. I have to think money wasn't the only motive in the Reds not getting him. I'm sure giving up a few prospects for a rental was more of the reason.

bshall2105
08-12-2010, 10:20 PM
Cliff Lee only cost around $4 mil the rest of the year. I have to think money wasn't the only motive in the Reds not getting him. I'm sure giving up a few prospects for a rental was more of the reason.

If they could have resigned him he would be on the team. It's not like just because Arroyo and Harang are off the books we have all of this cash floating around. There are a bunch of people that will be seeing pay raises soon, starting with Votto.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 10:20 PM
no....we are discussing what separates the Reds and Cards....I briefly talked about them in my post above but the question is about the Reds and Cards...and the Cards have a higher payroll than the Reds so you should be able to beat us....you have 3 ace starters, a 1st ballet hall of famer, a stud LF, the greatest coach in the world and an OF that screams all star....you tell me how in the beejeesus are we only 1 game behind you all? The simple fact that you have not put this division away and be up by 15 games is an utter embarrassment and all Cardinal fans should consider it a failure to not sweep us. If the Reds can muster up the strength to win this div, then the Cardinals should ask to quit MLB. You guys want to act as if TLR is gods gift to coaching, well what is he doing with the team this year? he is 1 game up in a division where there is nothing but you and the little ole Reds, the 70mill/year Reds.....the Pirates, need I say more about the Pirates....the Astros which have admitted to rebuilding, the Brewers, a team that is trying to lose to get a better draft status so they can start trying to replace Prince when he is gone......IMO the Cards have failed miserably this year, even with a 1 game lead....in no way shape or form should you all be happy...wait till your up by 10 games then come back and gloat all you want....but right now, the reds are breathing down your neck and running up your behind in an effort to have more wins than you all at the end of the year...all the while you guys are trying to hard to beat just the Reds....

but yes, the Cards should be light years ahead of the Reds....20mill could go a long way with our rotation or OF.

disclaimer: I am still upset over the sweep so please take my post as a fan simply releasing steam...I mean no ill will towards any Cardinal fan....just my way of having some good baseball talk while throwing some darts at you alls team...LOL :)

Cards are 1 game over the Reds with a 20 million dollar difference,

Braves are 2.5 games in the lead of the Phillies and they spent 50 million less.

San Diego has an 8.5 game lead on the dodgers and they spent about 70 million less.

Meanwhile the Yanks only have a game and a half lead on the Rays and they spent 140 Million more.

there's just no evidence supporting your whining about money, and getting swept this weekend.

Hey Meat
08-12-2010, 10:23 PM
What separates the Reds and the Cards. The Cards have a steroid using hitting coach. A DUI offender as a coach. A schedule in which they will end up behind the Reds in the division in the end.

Sham
08-12-2010, 10:24 PM
Cards are 1 game over the Reds with a 20 million dollar difference,

Braves are 2.5 games in the lead of the Phillies and they spent 50 million less.

San Diego has an 8.5 game lead on the dodgers and they spent about 70 million less.

Meanwhile the Yanks only have a game and a half lead on the Rays and they spent 140 Million more.

there's just no evidence supporting your whining about money, and getting swept this weekend.

I'm confused, are you saying the reds are going to get swept this weekend?

Dawg
08-12-2010, 10:26 PM
Ash heap?

Carpenter was seriously considering retiring before signing with the Cardinals. His arm troubles almost got the better of him.

Sham
08-12-2010, 10:27 PM
What separates the Reds and the Cards. The Cards have a steroid using hitting coach. A DUI offender as a coach. A schedule in which they will end up behind the Reds in the division in the end.

That's completely inaccurate, Larussa isn't a coach, he's the manager.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 10:30 PM
Ash heap?

Carp in 2002 had a torn rotator cuff, the cards signed him for nothing and he did the surgery as a cardinal. It wasn't like Carpenter was on the top of his game and we went out and made a big free agent acquisition. He was a dumpster dive, it just so happened on this particular dumpster dive we struck gold.

Votto4MVP
08-12-2010, 10:32 PM
You guys are crazy if you dont think money has ANYTHING to do with win.

Does spending a lot guarantee you will win? No.
Does not spending a lot guarantee you will lose? No.

But money definitely helps. Last year 5 teams in the top 10 payrolls made the playoffs whereas only 2 in the bottom 10 did. Also teams in the top 10 consistently probably make the playoffs a lot more consistently then teams in the bottom 10. When you are in the bottom 10 you usually have a 1 or 2 year window that opens up every 5-10 years or so, sometimes shorter sometimes longer, where you have a bunch of young guys all come up around the same time and can compete. Then those young guys leave for more money and you start over again.

The reds window is just opening now, and will probably last 2 or 3 years. Then we'll probably have to start over again. Next year and the year after will be our best chances to win a world series, if we dont we'll probably have to wait till 2016-2020.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 10:32 PM
I'm confused, are you saying the reds are going to get swept this weekend?

switch that to this week, although hopefully they do get swept. It's possible though, Florida has Johnson on Friday, Reds have Leake on Saturday, and Florida has Sanchez on Sunday. I like those pitching matchups.

Sham
08-12-2010, 10:33 PM
Carpenter was seriously considering retiring before signing with the Cardinals. His arm troubles almost got the better of him.

Thanks, but the phrase "ash heap" is what threw me. I don't hear that used in Cincinnati much, or at all. Is that a popular phrase in crime ridden cities like St. Louis?

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 10:34 PM
You guys are crazy if you dont think money has ANYTHING to do with win.

Does spending a lot guarantee you will win? No.
Does not spending a lot guarantee you will lose? No.

But money definitely helps. Last year 5 teams in the top 10 payrolls made the playoffs whereas only 2 in the bottom 10 did. Also teams in the top 10 consistently probably make the playoffs a lot more consistently then teams in the bottom 10. When you are in the bottom 10 you usually have a 1 or 2 year window that opens up every 5-10 years or so, sometimes shorter sometimes longer, where you have a bunch of young guys all come up around the same time and can compete. Then those young guys leave for more money and you start over again.

The reds window is just opening now, and will probably last 2 or 3 years. Then we'll probably have to start over again. Next year and the year after will be our best chances to win a world series, if we dont we'll probably have to wait till 2016-2020.

And you're absolutely right about that, but to just look at a team and expect them to be better because they have more money is ridiculous. Teams with more money can avoid the rebuilding process, but in any given year they can compete.

paintmered
08-12-2010, 10:35 PM
Is that a popular phrase in crime ridden cities like St. Louis?

See ya. If you want to continue to bait, you're going to take a vacation.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 10:41 PM
Those are just 2 players. There is still a 20 million+ payroll differential. If they could afford to go up to 93 million than Cliff Lee would be on this team IMO.

Cardinals can't afford Cliff Lee either though, so what's your point?

mckbearcat48
08-12-2010, 10:52 PM
no....we are discussing what separates the Reds and Cards....I briefly talked about them in my post above but the question is about the Reds and Cards...and the Cards have a higher payroll than the Reds so you should be able to beat us....you have 3 ace starters, a 1st ballet hall of famer, a stud LF, the greatest coach in the world and an OF that screams all star....you tell me how in the beejeesus are we only 1 game behind you all? The simple fact that you have not put this division away and be up by 15 games is an utter embarrassment and all Cardinal fans should consider it a failure to not sweep us. If the Reds can muster up the strength to win this div, then the Cardinals should ask to quit MLB. You guys want to act as if TLR is gods gift to coaching, well what is he doing with the team this year? he is 1 game up in a division where there is nothing but you and the little ole Reds, the 70mill/year Reds.....the Pirates, need I say more about the Pirates....the Astros which have admitted to rebuilding, the Brewers, a team that is trying to lose to get a better draft status so they can start trying to replace Prince when he is gone......IMO the Cards have failed miserably this year, even with a 1 game lead....in no way shape or form should you all be happy...wait till your up by 10 games then come back and gloat all you want....but right now, the reds are breathing down your neck and running up your behind in an effort to have more wins than you all at the end of the year...all the while you guys are trying to hard to beat just the Reds....

but yes, the Cards should be light years ahead of the Reds....20mill could go a long way with our rotation or OF.

disclaimer: I am still upset over the sweep so please take my post as a fan simply releasing steam...I mean no ill will towards any Cardinal fan....just my way of having some good baseball talk while throwing some darts at you alls team...LOL :)

No offense taken...Money may not buy happiness, but it seems to buy better baseball players. The good baseball talk, I'm all in for that.

lidspinner
08-12-2010, 10:54 PM
Cards are 1 game over the Reds with a 20 million dollar difference,

Braves are 2.5 games in the lead of the Phillies and they spent 50 million less.

San Diego has an 8.5 game lead on the dodgers and they spent about 70 million less.

Meanwhile the Yanks only have a game and a half lead on the Rays and they spent 140 Million more.

there's just no evidence supporting your whining about money, and getting swept this weekend.



whoa whoa whoa there pal.....I am not whining, I am stating opinions...and this thread is about what separates the Reds and Cardinals...no the Padres, Braves, Yankees and Rays have no spot in this debate....I am not saying that is the case with all teams in MLB......I am saying that what separates the Reds and Cardinals is your payroll is allowing you to sign 20+mill more PER YEAR on players that the Reds simply cannot afford to get.....are the Cards doing anything wrong by having a higher payroll? Heck no, and I applaud them for spending money making their team better....is it right? heck no, nothing about the payroll spending in MLB is right.

We could throw all kinds of teams and stats about money in this thread and prove a thousand points in different directions.....but this thread is about the separation between the Reds and the Cardinals...and if we had 24mill extra a year on top of what we already have, then I would venture to say we would have a completely different outcome of our head to head matchups. Give us Matt Holiday, give us Carpenter? Wainy? Albert? either one of the 4 make us the better team...but you guys have them and I applaud you for that, great moves and great signings....but it still does not take away the fact that its money that makes you the better club......go back and look at the articles, the Reds sniffed around the Rockies in and gave it a try to get Matt Holiday but they could not afford to sign him at the end of the year.....the cardinals could......do you think we could afford to sign Albert when he becomes a free agent? the Cardinals can.

But the bottom line is we have what we have and you have what you have....this thread was not about who has the best team....and even if the Cardinals beat us every game of the year, we still can win the division and go to the playoffs while you guys sit at home. And to do that with 20+mill difference in payroll is a feat in its own and a major accomplishment....Just as what the Rays are doing right now is an amazing thing, and they deserve to be the talk of all of baseball....but this thread is about the reds and cardinals.....bottom line, money separates us. you guys are the better team because you have more money to spend on the better players. What you do with them from there is what could hurt you or help you.

Defacto
08-12-2010, 10:58 PM
lidspinner, payroll was significantly lower last year than it was this year for the Cardinals. The reason? Holliday and Penny's contracts. Take that away, and we have about the same payroll as the Reds.

Yadi for Mayor
08-12-2010, 11:14 PM
whoa whoa whoa there pal.....I am not whining, I am stating opinions...and this thread is about what separates the Reds and Cardinals...no the Padres, Braves, Yankees and Rays have no spot in this debate....I am not saying that is the case with all teams in MLB......I am saying that what separates the Reds and Cardinals is your payroll is allowing you to sign 20+mill more PER YEAR on players that the Reds simply cannot afford to get.....are the Cards doing anything wrong by having a higher payroll? Heck no, and I applaud them for spending money making their team better....is it right? heck no, nothing about the payroll spending in MLB is right.

We could throw all kinds of teams and stats about money in this thread and prove a thousand points in different directions.....but this thread is about the separation between the Reds and the Cardinals...and if we had 24mill extra a year on top of what we already have, then I would venture to say we would have a completely different outcome of our head to head matchups. Give us Matt Holiday, give us Carpenter? Wainy? Albert? either one of the 4 make us the better team...but you guys have them and I applaud you for that, great moves and great signings....but it still does not take away the fact that its money that makes you the better club......go back and look at the articles, the Reds sniffed around the Rockies in and gave it a try to get Matt Holiday but they could not afford to sign him at the end of the year.....the cardinals could......do you think we could afford to sign Albert when he becomes a free agent? the Cardinals can.

But the bottom line is we have what we have and you have what you have....this thread was not about who has the best team....and even if the Cardinals beat us every game of the year, we still can win the division and go to the playoffs while you guys sit at home. And to do that with 20+mill difference in payroll is a feat in its own and a major accomplishment....Just as what the Rays are doing right now is an amazing thing, and they deserve to be the talk of all of baseball....but this thread is about the reds and cardinals.....bottom line, money separates us. you guys are the better team because you have more money to spend on the better players. What you do with them from there is what could hurt you or help you.

You say we're talking about the Reds and the Cards and other teams salaries don't matter, but it's very relevant. It shows that there are a lot of teams with bigger salaries than the cards or Reds who both teams are better than. And the reason why is because it's not really about money it's about talent.

Cards do have 20 million dollars more, but the Reds have a stocked farm system, cards don't. In fact our farm system is so barren to trade for a marginal pitcher we had to trade away our third best hitter. If the Reds are beating the Cards, would it be a believable excuse for us to say well that's just because you have a better farm system, you're supposed to win?

Bottom line, talent is talent whether they are rookies making 400k or vets making 15 million. Talent wins baseball games not money.

Either way I always enjoy a good baseball argument it saves me from all the legal work I have to do.:beerme:

ThornWithin81
08-12-2010, 11:15 PM
One game.

757690
08-13-2010, 03:51 AM
lidspinner, payroll was significantly lower last year than it was this year for the Cardinals. The reason? Holliday and Penny's contracts. Take that away, and we have about the same payroll as the Reds.

The last six years, this was the difference in payroll between the Cards and the Reds:

05: $31M
06: $29M
07: $22M
08: $25M
09: $15M
10: $18M

So the gap is narrowing, but still very significant.

And I think you made lidspinner's point. If you move Holiday and Penny, or just Holiday for that matter, from the Cards to the Reds, the Reds are at least 10 games ahead of the Cards at this point this season.

Here's the point.

Money doesn't buy Championships, but it sure as hell helps. The more money you can spend, the easier it is to build a Championship.

A team can build a Championship on a $40M payroll, and a last place team on a $100M payroll. Being smart and lucky are the two most important factors in building a Championship. But that $40M payroll team has to be a lot smarter, and luckier than everyone else to do it, and the $100M payroll team doesn't have to be as smart or lucky to do it.

10xWSChamps
08-13-2010, 04:31 AM
No. Team Payroll Average
1. New York Yankees $206,333,389 $8,253,336
2. Boston Red Sox $162,747,333 $5,611,977
3. Chicago Cubs $146,859,000 $5,439,222
4. Philadelphia Phillies $141,927,381 $5,068,835
5. New York Mets $132,701,445 $5,103,902
6. Detroit Tigers $122,864,929 $4,550,553
7. Chicago White Sox $108,273,197 $4,164,354
8. Los Angeles Angels $105,013,667 $3,621,161
9. Seattle Mariners $98,376,667 $3,513,452
10. San Francisco Giants $97,828,833 $3,493,887
11. Minnesota Twins $97,559,167 $3,484,256
12. Los Angeles Dodgers $94,945,517 $3,651,751
13. St. Louis Cardinals $93,540,753 $3,741,630
14. Houston Astros $92,355,500 $3,298,411
15. Atlanta Braves $84,423,667 $3,126,802
16. Colorado Rockies $84,227,000 $2,904,379
17. Baltimore Orioles $81,612,500 $3,138,942
18. Milwaukee Brewers $81,108,279 $2,796,837
19. Cincinnati Reds $72,386,544 $2,784,098
20. Kansas City Royals $72,267,710 $2,491,990
21. Tampa Bay Rays $71,923,471 $2,663,832
22. Toronto Blue Jays $62,689,357 $2,089,645
23. Washington Nationals $61,425,000 $2,047,500
24. Cleveland Indians $61,203,967 $2,110,482
25. Arizona Diamondbacks $60,718,167 $2,335,314
26. Florida Marlins $55,641,500 $2,060,796
27. Texas Rangers $55,250,545 $1,905,191
28. Oakland Athletics $51,654,900 $1,666,287
29. San Diego Padres $37,799,300 $1,453,819
30. Pittsburgh Pirates $34,943,000 $1,294,185



Money isn't everything. When you get to the mega-money teams then yeah, money can buy division titles (unless you have a completely inept front office/GM/scouting department: Mets), but once you get to Cardinal territory (sub-100 million) then you have to have a good organization to be successful.

There's been only a few teams who have been successful in the majority of the 2000s, and IMO the Cardinals are one of those teams.

It takes a good front office and GM. It takes good scouting departments. A smart manager is always helpful (I know, many of you guys don't like LaRussa but you can't argue with his track record). Obviously you need good big league talent. You have to have a good farm system, not only to replenish the big league team when needed, but also to keep costs down and to have trade chips when you need them. You need to have a good payroll too and an owner who cares about the team and wants to win.

If you take away any of the two variables above and the Cardinals aren't going to be nearly as successful in the past decade. If you take away two from the Yankees, then they could throw money at it and keep above water. The payroll certainly helps but it means nothing if the rest of the organization isn't good.

757690
08-13-2010, 05:03 AM
No. Team Payroll Average
1. New York Yankees $206,333,389 $8,253,336
2. Boston Red Sox $162,747,333 $5,611,977
3. Chicago Cubs $146,859,000 $5,439,222
4. Philadelphia Phillies $141,927,381 $5,068,835
5. New York Mets $132,701,445 $5,103,902
6. Detroit Tigers $122,864,929 $4,550,553
7. Chicago White Sox $108,273,197 $4,164,354
8. Los Angeles Angels $105,013,667 $3,621,161
9. Seattle Mariners $98,376,667 $3,513,452
10. San Francisco Giants $97,828,833 $3,493,887
11. Minnesota Twins $97,559,167 $3,484,256
12. Los Angeles Dodgers $94,945,517 $3,651,751
13. St. Louis Cardinals $93,540,753 $3,741,630
14. Houston Astros $92,355,500 $3,298,411
15. Atlanta Braves $84,423,667 $3,126,802
16. Colorado Rockies $84,227,000 $2,904,379
17. Baltimore Orioles $81,612,500 $3,138,942
18. Milwaukee Brewers $81,108,279 $2,796,837
19. Cincinnati Reds $72,386,544 $2,784,098
20. Kansas City Royals $72,267,710 $2,491,990
21. Tampa Bay Rays $71,923,471 $2,663,832
22. Toronto Blue Jays $62,689,357 $2,089,645
23. Washington Nationals $61,425,000 $2,047,500
24. Cleveland Indians $61,203,967 $2,110,482
25. Arizona Diamondbacks $60,718,167 $2,335,314
26. Florida Marlins $55,641,500 $2,060,796
27. Texas Rangers $55,250,545 $1,905,191
28. Oakland Athletics $51,654,900 $1,666,287
29. San Diego Padres $37,799,300 $1,453,819
30. Pittsburgh Pirates $34,943,000 $1,294,185



Money isn't everything. When you get to the mega-money teams then yeah, money can buy division titles (unless you have a completely inept front office/GM/scouting department: Mets), but once you get to Cardinal territory (sub-100 million) then you have to have a good organization to be successful.

There's been only a few teams who have been successful in the majority of the 2000s, and IMO the Cardinals are one of those teams.

It takes a good front office and GM. It takes good scouting departments. A smart manager is always helpful (I know, many of you guys don't like LaRussa but you can't argue with his track record). Obviously you need good big league talent. You have to have a good farm system, not only to replenish the big league team when needed, but also to keep costs down and to have trade chips when you need them. You need to have a good payroll too and an owner who cares about the team and wants to win.

If you take away any of the two variables above and the Cardinals aren't going to be nearly as successful in the past decade. If you take away two from the Yankees, then they could throw money at it and keep above water. The payroll certainly helps but it means nothing if the rest of the organization isn't good.

This is a good analysis, and for the most part if very accurate.

However, the actual cutoff point in terms of payroll and success has been around $85M for the past decade. Over that time, teams that spent over $85M made the playoffs around 75% of the time, while teams that spent under $85M made the playoffs less than 15% of the time.

Just look at your list above. Most of the teams that spent $85M or more have been in the playoffs multiple times in the past decade, in fact that list looks almost exactly like the contending teams this past decade.

The teams beneath that mostly are the teams that never contend. The list looks the same for most of this decade.

So the Cardinals are clearly in the big spending group. At least the "spending enough" group. You are absolutely correct that they still need to be smart, and smarter than the Yankees, but they have a clear advantage over those teams that can't spent at least $85M on payroll. Money is not why they have won, but it is what has made it possible for them.

DocRed
08-13-2010, 08:54 AM
delete

Razzle
08-13-2010, 10:40 AM
The last six years, this was the difference in payroll between the Cards and the Reds:

05: $31M
06: $29M
07: $22M
08: $25M
09: $15M
10: $18M


Many of these years the gap wouldn't have mattered. In 2005, I don't think the extra $31 mil would have gotten the Reds the extra 27 wins to pass the Cards. Also, I'm getting some slightly different numbers and wondered where you got yours, though yours may be more accurate.

The rest of your post I think is well stated and I agree with. Even if a salary cap were instilled I'm not sure it'd shorten the gap between the Reds and Cards. A theoretical salary cap would most likely not be under $100 mil, so unless the Reds added payroll to get up to that number (that's possible) then not much would change.

krm1580
08-13-2010, 11:47 AM
I am surprised this thread has stretched on for 7 pages when the first response was the correct one.

The difference between the Reds and the Cardinals is Carpenter and Wainwright, end of story.

Impact vs Reds
Carp and Waino vs Reds 6-1 Rest of Cardinals team vs Reds 4-4


Impact over the course of a season
Carp and Waino 29-9 .763% Rest of Cardinals team 35-40 .467%


By contrast the Reds "top" 2
Cueto & Arroyo 23-10 .697% Rest of Reds team 41-41 .500%

The numbers don't even take into account things that are more difficult to quantify such as Carp and Waino routinely go deeper into games as evidenced by the 46+ additional innings they have pitched over the Reds top 2 which means less wear and tear on the bullpen.

Bottom line, in a head to head, short series matchup, the Cardinals have the ability to roll out 2 bonafide, #1, top of the rotation guys. The best the Reds can do right now is Arroyo who is a #3 and Cueto who is #2/#3. And every series those 2 are lined up against the Reds

As far as the money things goes, there is some impact to that but not as much as people want to believe. Where the Cardinals have a financial advantage comes from that fact that at the trade deadline they can go out and get a Matt Holliday or a Scott Rolen like in 2003 and take on the payroll. The Reds cannot. This can make a difference in the push for the playoffs, but the sad truth of the matter is for the last decade the Reds could have traded for 1927 Babe Ruth and his $100,000 salary and they still would not have come close to the playoffs.

lidspinner
08-13-2010, 01:15 PM
look, I am not saying that smarts and luck do not play a part in winning championships....I am saying that having the money to spend on talent sure helps a TON more than trying to get lucky with late round draft picks....so someone can assume that talent is the difference but talent is brought in via 2 different ways, via free agency and the farm system......if you bring your talent up through the farm system I promise that you fail more than you dont.....I dont know the hit success rate of minor leaguerers making the show, but I would think its very low.....NOW, the flip side....if you have the coin to sign free agents and bring your talent in that way, your change at success is much higher, talent via free agency is proven talent and they more than not turn out to help your team for a few years.....for every Gary Matthews Jr there are 5 Matt Holidays......

So money is a major influence on whether or not your team wins or losses....are there other factors involved? yes. But 85% of the time, if you spend more than 85mill/year, then you will be in the playoffs....and that my friend is great odds, you cant get better odds cheating.

so again, without talking about the other teams in MLB, and sure, I dont mind using them as a tool to compare....but without using those teams as the bible to winning and losing, lets compare the Reds and Cardinals...and when you compare those 2 teams, the major difference is the money spent on talent.....no ifs ands or buts, money has bought the Cardinals more talent than the Reds.....

bshall2105
08-13-2010, 03:40 PM
Cardinals can't afford Cliff Lee either though, so what's your point?

My point is if the Reds could spend as much as the Cardinals thew Reds could sign him.

gmt
08-13-2010, 03:49 PM
The separation is probably more perception of the past that the actual. The Cardinals have been there before and more recently than the Reds. Many could argue that the Reds have played far above expectations in the preseason and the Cardinals have played well below theirs. Many of the Cardinals players have played a lot worse than their past would predict and they have been playing better since the all-star game; some would argue beginning to play up to their true potential. The Reds are treading on unknown territory for most of the roster. The veterans help, but youthful "ignorance" (they don't know their not supposed to win) can carry the club a long way. The Reds won't make it to the playoffs if all they are concerned with is being better than the Cardinals. They need to be better against the rest of the teams left on the schedule. And a better than 55% winning percentage would help a lot.

thorn
08-13-2010, 03:56 PM
The difference is the Cards have had their organization on track for many years, while the Reds are just getting theirs back on track. Lets not forget previous owners the Reds have had, Marge completed decimated the Reds scouting and minor leagues, Linder wouldn't spend the money to bring it back either. 1 or 2 bad owners over 10 years can make a big impact that can take a long time to come back from. This organization is heading in the right direction just give it a little more time to fully heal itself.

krm1580
08-13-2010, 04:02 PM
If you bring your talent up through the farm system I promise that you fail more than you dont.....I dont know the hit success rate of minor leaguerers making the show, but I would think its very low.....NOW, the flip side....if you have the coin to sign free agents and bring your talent in that way, your change at success is much higher, talent via free agency is proven talent and they more than not turn out to help your team for a few years.....for every Gary Matthews Jr there are 5 Matt Holidays

Unless you are the Yankees or the Red Sox the ONLY way you survive is bring up players through your farm system. You use free agents to supplement areas where you have issues. For example, you said the Cardinals bought talent, so I took a look at their roster

C Molina Drafted by Cardinals
1B Pujols Drafted by Cardinals
2B Shu Drafted by Cardinals
SS Ryan Drafted by Cardinals
3B Freese From San Diego - Came up through Cards system
RF Jay Drafted by Cardinals
CF Rasmus Drafted by Cardinals
LF Holiday Fiancially motivated trade
SP Wainwri From Atlanta - Came up through Cardinals system
SP Carp Free Agent - 4 years (300K, 300K, 2M, 5M)
SP Garcia Drafted by Cardinals
SP Westbrook Financially motivated trade
SP Hawkswrth Drafted by Cardinals

As far as I can tell Holiday and Westbrook are the only additions that were financially motivated. Carpenter they got off the IR scrap heap for dirt. Everyone else came up through their system

I think if you look at pretty much every team outside of the Yankees/RedSox you will find the overwhelming majority comes from the farms systems

krm1580
08-13-2010, 04:07 PM
The difference is the Cards have had their organization on track for many years, while the Reds are just getting theirs back on track. Lets not forget previous owners the Reds have had, Marge completed decimated the Reds scouting and minor leagues, Linder wouldn't spend the money to bring it back either. 1 or 2 bad owners over 10 years can make a big impact that can take a long time to come back from. This organization is heading in the right direction just give it a little more time to fully heal itself.

That's a great point. Best of all the guy that built the Cardinals is now running the Reds, so we will see what happens.

texasdave
08-13-2010, 04:25 PM
The difference is the Cards have had their organization on track for many years, while the Reds are just getting theirs back on track. Lets not forget previous owners the Reds have had, Marge completed decimated the Reds scouting and minor leagues, Linder wouldn't spend the money to bring it back either. 1 or 2 bad owners over 10 years can make a big impact that can take a long time to come back from. This organization is heading in the right direction just give it a little more time to fully heal itself.

So if I am synthesizing this post correctly then the difference is money. Marge wouldn't spend it (on the development end) and Lindner wouldn't spend it (anywhere). And the Reds are just now digging themselves out of that hole.

The difference between the Reds and the Cardinals is money. The Reds didn't have it and had to let go of Adam Dunn. The Cardinals have it and could get Holliday. Either put Dunn in left field for the Reds or switch
Gomes and Holliday and tell me which team is in first.

Noone here is saying the Cardinals are a poorly run organization that only buys players. The discussion centers around what is the difference between the two organizations. The answer is money.

10xWSChamps
08-13-2010, 04:39 PM
This is a good analysis, and for the most part if very accurate.

However, the actual cutoff point in terms of payroll and success has been around $85M for the past decade. Over that time, teams that spent over $85M made the playoffs around 75% of the time, while teams that spent under $85M made the playoffs less than 15% of the time.

Just look at your list above. Most of the teams that spent $85M or more have been in the playoffs multiple times in the past decade, in fact that list looks almost exactly like the contending teams this past decade.

The teams beneath that mostly are the teams that never contend. The list looks the same for most of this decade.

So the Cardinals are clearly in the big spending group. At least the "spending enough" group. You are absolutely correct that they still need to be smart, and smarter than the Yankees, but they have a clear advantage over those teams that can't spent at least $85M on payroll. Money is not why they have won, but it is what has made it possible for them.


I agree we've had an advantage, although in recent years that advantage have lessened. It hasn't lessened any against teams with lower payrolls then us, but the field has been evened so that if the Cardinals are "only" 13th in total payroll that means there's 12 other teams with a payroll advantage over us and obviously there's only 8 teams making the playoffs every year. So while we do have an advantage it's not as extreme as a 95m payroll would have been 6-7 years ago. The teams spending 120m+ are the ones with an extreme advantage IMO.




As far as I can tell Holiday and Westbrook are the only additions that were financially motivated. Carpenter they got off the IR scrap heap for dirt. Everyone else came up through their system

I think if you look at pretty much every team outside of the Yankees/RedSox you will find the overwhelming majority comes from the farms systems

That is very true and it's another reason why your farm system has to be good.

Holliday got traded to us for one of our blue chip prospects (ironically that prospect is now back in the NLC and the starting 1st basemen for the Astros after the berkman trade).

Freese came from Jim Edmonds who was originally traded to the Cardinals for Adam Kennedy who was a good prospect at the time (awful trade for the angels!)

Wainwright came from a JD Drew trade (Drew was drafted by cardinals),

Sometimes the trades don't really work out. We traded away Dan Haren for Mark Mulder

Scott Rolen got traded to us for like 3 or 4 prospects.



But you do still have to have the money to be able to re-sign these guys. The best players on the team (Carp, Wainwright, Pujols, Holliday) are obviously off of their rookie contracts. And guys like Rasmus, Jay, Freese, Garcia, etc. help to keep costs down


for every Gary Matthews Jr there are 5 Matt Holidays......

Shouldn't that be the other way around?

thorn
08-13-2010, 05:51 PM
So if I am synthesizing this post correctly then the difference is money. Marge wouldn't spend it (on the development end) and Lindner wouldn't spend it (anywhere). And the Reds are just now digging themselves out of that hole.

The difference between the Reds and the Cardinals is money. The Reds didn't have it and had to let go of Adam Dunn. The Cardinals have it and could get Holliday. Either put Dunn in left field for the Reds or switch
Gomes and Holliday and tell me which team is in first.

Noone here is saying the Cardinals are a poorly run organization that only buys players. The discussion centers around what is the difference between the two organizations. The answer is money.



It is always about the money, but not in the sense that they have it and we don't. IMO, this is the difference. We have spent more money on international signings, draft signings than almost anyone the past few years because we have to build from within and they choose to spend it on the active roster. This off season will tells us a lot about where the Reds spend their money, we should have plenty for a Holliday or Lee, lets hope they spend it.

lidspinner
08-13-2010, 08:12 PM
Unless you are the Yankees or the Red Sox the ONLY way you survive is bring up players through your farm system. You use free agents to supplement areas where you have issues. For example, you said the Cardinals bought talent, so I took a look at their roster

C Molina Drafted by Cardinals
1B Pujols Drafted by Cardinals
2B Shu Drafted by Cardinals
SS Ryan Drafted by Cardinals
3B Freese From San Diego - Came up through Cards system
RF Jay Drafted by Cardinals
CF Rasmus Drafted by Cardinals
LF Holiday Fiancially motivated trade
SP Wainwri From Atlanta - Came up through Cardinals system
SP Carp Free Agent - 4 years (300K, 300K, 2M, 5M)
SP Garcia Drafted by Cardinals
SP Westbrook Financially motivated trade
SP Hawkswrth Drafted by Cardinals

As far as I can tell Holiday and Westbrook are the only additions that were financially motivated. Carpenter they got off the IR scrap heap for dirt. Everyone else came up through their system

I think if you look at pretty much every team outside of the Yankees/RedSox you will find the overwhelming majority comes from the farms systems




maybe I played that out all wrong....my point was supposed to be that, while most of the teams might have more home grown players, the talent on most all winning teams comes from spending money, either via free agency or keeping your talent on your team...but it still comes down to money....if the Cardinals were in the Reds payroll area, then Albert would be getting ready to be let go......then Carpenter would soon follow.....and if the Reds dont up the payroll soon, we are going to have to let Votto walk....we can not pay him what he is worth with our payroll right now.

good point though by you, and I am glad you provided facts to back it up....but if you go team by team of the top teams in the league I would "guess" that most teams have bought their big talent. I could be wrong.

10xWSChamps
08-13-2010, 08:37 PM
maybe I played that out all wrong....my point was supposed to be that, while most of the teams might have more home grown players, the talent on most all winning teams comes from spending money, either via free agency or keeping your talent on your team...but it still comes down to money....if the Cardinals were in the Reds payroll area, then Albert would be getting ready to be let go......then Carpenter would soon follow.....and if the Reds dont up the payroll soon, we are going to have to let Votto walk....we can not pay him what he is worth with our payroll right now.

good point though by you, and I am glad you provided facts to back it up....but if you go team by team of the top teams in the league I would "guess" that most teams have bought their big talent. I could be wrong.

Is Votto on his rookie deal still?

I wouldn't have thought the Reds payroll was as high as it is even. For some reason I would have guessed something around 50m. Who's got the biggest contract on the team?

The Rays payroll is a bit higher then I thought too, probably because they've had to re-sign some of that talent that's come up the past 5 years or so. The least surprising teams on the list however, were the first and last: Yankees and Pirates.

1990REDS
08-14-2010, 08:53 AM
Is Votto on his rookie deal still?

I wouldn't have thought the Reds payroll was as high as it is even. For some reason I would have guessed something around 50m. Who's got the biggest contract on the team?

The Rays payroll is a bit higher then I thought too, probably because they've had to re-sign some of that talent that's come up the past 5 years or so. The least surprising teams on the list however, were the first and last: Yankees and Pirates.

Vottos making about 500k this year. I beleive Harang and Cordero are the highest paid in the 11 to 12 mill area. I could be wrong but i think my numbers are pretty accurate so someone please correct me if i am.

lidspinner
08-14-2010, 03:29 PM
so we have Votto who is out producing Albert in darn near everything this year, and we got him at 500k....How can we afford to pay him like Albert? We cant, plain and simple.....so again, when his time comes to leave us, we will have to hope that Yonder Alonso can put up similar numbers as Votto, and bite the dust....when your payroll is what ours is, we just cant have a 20mill/year player....unless the owner ups our payroll.

The other way to look at it is this, if we up our payroll to 100mill....then not only do we get to keep Votto, but we could sign a CLiff Lee, a Zack Grienke, a Hanley Ramirez.....I hope you see where I am comming from?

I am saying all this based on the question that was asked....I do have animosity towards any team that simply goes out and buys there talent, but its jealousy....I wish the Reds could do that. I respect the Cardinals for doing what their budget allows them to do, just as I respect the Yankees for doing the same....but it does not change the fact that if the Yanks and Reds played each other in the Series, then anything short of a sweep by the Yanks is considered failure.....its a game that is played between the lines, true, but the team is put together in the winter with bank accounts.

1990REDS
08-14-2010, 03:42 PM
just double checked
Votto 525k

highest paid
Harang 15.5 million
Cordero 12.125 million

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=cin

lukethedrifter
08-14-2010, 03:54 PM
just double checked
Votto 525k

highest paid
Harang 15.5 million
Cordero 12.125 million

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/salaries?team=cin

I think paying Cordero 12 mil and Harang 15 explains a few things as well.

lidspinner
08-14-2010, 03:59 PM
I think paying Cordero 12 mil and Harang 15 explains a few things as well.


sure it does...when Harang was signed he was eating batters for breakfast....he was a sure fire #1 starter. He has declined fast. Coco was a bad sign and everyone here and earth knew it.

Defacto
08-14-2010, 04:00 PM
Harang's pretty average when he's good. He was in contention for the Cy Young award in 2006.

Dawg
08-14-2010, 04:01 PM
I wouldn't say Votto is outproducing Pujols this season, they are actually really evenly matched in almost every catagory.

1990REDS
08-14-2010, 04:32 PM
I think paying Cordero 12 mil and Harang 15 explains a few things as well.

haha it doesnt explain a few things, it explains everything.:)
Small market teams have no business paying a closer 12 mill. just a bad contract.

lukethedrifter
08-14-2010, 04:57 PM
haha it doesnt explain a few things, it explains everything.:)
Small market teams have no business paying a closer 12 mill. just a bad contract.

Lohse's bad contract is definitely trumped by both of those. In this era, for teams not named Yankees and Red Sox, avoiding bad contracts is incredibly important. The Yankees and the Red Sox typically avoid them anyway.

Defacto
08-14-2010, 05:11 PM
Lohse's bad contract is definitely trumped by both of those. In this era, for teams not named Yankees and Red Sox, avoiding bad contracts is incredibly important. The Yankees and the Red Sox typically avoid them anyway.

The Kei Igawa and Dice-K contracts have been wonderful for both teams.

lukethedrifter
08-14-2010, 05:21 PM
The Kei Igawa and Dice-K contracts have been wonderful for both teams.

True. I wonder if some of the risk is offset by increased exposure/interest/sales in Japan. Plus, they pale in comparison to say, Carlos Lee's contract.

Anyway, I just remembered Julio Lugo's contract so I clearly should have left the line out about the Sox and Yanks avoiding them.

Defacto
08-14-2010, 05:36 PM
True. I wonder if some of the risk is offset by increased exposure/interest/sales in Japan. Plus, they pale in comparison to say, Carlos Lee's contract.

Anyway, I just remembered Julio Lugo's contract so I clearly should have left the line out about the Sox and Yanks avoiding them.

Lee's contract, IMO, is the same as Soriano's. Both are good, but not good enough for how much they're getting paid for.

texasdave
08-14-2010, 06:04 PM
I think paying Cordero 12 mil and Harang 15 explains a few things as well.

It explains about as much as a 4-year, 40+ million contract for Kyle Lohse. The Cards picked Carpenter off the scrap heap; the Reds picked up Brandon Phillips pretty much the same way. Everyone can cherry pick a stat here or there. At the end of the day the Cardinals average about 20 million more on the yearly payroll than do the Reds. There is your difference.

CrosleyField
08-14-2010, 06:22 PM
Look at the Twins!

Let's make the routine plays. Not look like a 8-9 year old baseball team on defense. We simply lost our mine against the Cards. Hopefully we learned our lesson.

Defacto
08-14-2010, 06:49 PM
Look at the Twins!

Let's make the routine plays. Not look like a 8-9 year old baseball team on defense. We simply lost our mine against the Cards. Hopefully we learned our lesson.

The Twins payroll is $93 million.

Verins
08-15-2010, 02:09 AM
Many of these years the gap wouldn't have mattered. In 2005, I don't think the extra $31 mil would have gotten the Reds the extra 27 wins to pass the Cards. Also, I'm getting some slightly different numbers and wondered where you got yours, though yours may be more accurate.

The rest of your post I think is well stated and I agree with. Even if a salary cap were instilled I'm not sure it'd shorten the gap between the Reds and Cards. A theoretical salary cap would most likely not be under $100 mil, so unless the Reds added payroll to get up to that number (that's possible) then not much would change.

If you want to cherry pick lets have a look at the 2006 season, yeah the year you won the world series. The Cards were a whole 3.5 games in front of the Reds at the end of the season. That 20+ million payroll made no difference at all. At all.

MikeThierry
08-15-2010, 09:07 AM
maybe I played that out all wrong....my point was supposed to be that, while most of the teams might have more home grown players, the talent on most all winning teams comes from spending money, either via free agency or keeping your talent on your team...but it still comes down to money....if the Cardinals were in the Reds payroll area, then Albert would be getting ready to be let go......then Carpenter would soon follow.....and if the Reds dont up the payroll soon, we are going to have to let Votto walk....we can not pay him what he is worth with our payroll right now.

I think this is a double edged sword. The Reds might have the ability to spend like the Cardinals if they put a winning product out there in the past. The Cards consistently have 3 million plus a year due to having a winning product. I feel if the Reds are highly successful this decade, they can afford to have 90 million dollar payrolls.



Anyway, I just remembered Julio Lugo's contract so I clearly should have left the line out about the Sox and Yanks avoiding them.

Its kind of funny you mention this. I think John Mozeleks best trade was the Lugo trade. Not only did we trade away a bad player, but we got the Red Sox to eat practically all of Lugo's contract. He got the league minimum from us and was a good player down the stretch for the Cards last year.

Revering4Blue
08-15-2010, 11:54 AM
The difference is the Cards have had their organization on track for many years, while the Reds are just getting theirs back on track. Lets not forget previous owners the Reds have had, Marge completed decimated the Reds scouting and minor leagues, Linder wouldn't spend the money to bring it back either. 1 or 2 bad owners over 10 years can make a big impact that can take a long time to come back from. This organization is heading in the right direction just give it a little more time to fully heal itself.

Spot on.

Simply put, The Cards, as an organization, were proactive... The Reds were not.

The Cards would have never placed a figurehead --John Allen--in a position to make baseball decisions.

There are too many examples of meddling/blocking trades to mention, and you can't blame it all on money, either.

As far as market size is concerned, don't kid yourself, St. Louis is a larger market than Cincy, at least from the standpoint of corporate sponsorship opportunities.

However, when it comes to gate revenue, the Reds have an advantage--closer proximity of several major markets--over St. Louis, but have failed to capitalize. They should be drawing better than they are--recession or not.

Granted, years of losing and suspect markeing methods outside of the greater Cincy area--John Allen's premature decision to pull the plug on free--tv didn't help matters at all.

If the franchise continues to do well on the field, they will draw well, especially next year, when you usually see a huge payoff at the gate following a contending season.

That is something Wayne H. in Miami failed to realize, Lindner, to a certain extent, didn't seem to understand it, either. It appears Cast does, thank goodness.