Cueto 7 game suspension

[GIDP]

Baker and LaRussa both got 2, and 4 other players fined.

I'm surprised Molina, Phillips and Carpenter didnt get at least 1. Then again MLB probably doesnt want to upset LaRussa too much since he could probably just take the game he invented away.

[TheBigLebowski]

Baker and LaRussa both got 2, and 4 other players fined.

I'm surprised Molina, Phillips and Carpenter didnt get at least 1. Then again MLB probably doesnt want to upset LaRussa too much since he could probably just take the game he invented away.

total horse

[GaiusBallstar]

So he'll miss a start, sucks but its not the end of the world. I'm baffled that there was no suspension for Yadier, Brandon, or Carpenter, but MLB usually gets these kinds of things wrong anyway so I guess it comes as no surprise. Oh well, La Russa wins its seems.

[GIDP]

I hope Jason Larue isnt so injured that he can remember how to find the starting line up.

[redsfan_12]

No suspension for Carpenter or Molina?? BS

[ELE]

Why does Molina and Carpenter deserve a suspension? A fine yes... Suspension not a chance.

[redsfan_12]

Why does Molina and Carpenter deserve a suspension? A fine yes... Suspension not a chance.

Maybe because Molina started it and Caroenter cussed out Baker?

[GIDP]

Its hard to suspend a pitcher anyways. Carpenter wasnt going to get suspended for a ton of games. I'm sure he probably got fined a ton.

That said I'm really surprised Phillips and Molina didnt get 1 game. Maybe the fines are just massive.

[ELE]

Maybe because Molina started it and Caroenter cussed out Baker?


Well Phillips started it with his comments and if we are going to suspended every player who cussed in that mess then neither team is going to be able to field a team. Cueto only gonna miss 1 start. Nothing big came from this whole brawl in terms of suspensions which is a good thing..

[redsfan_12]

Well Phillips started it with his comments and if we are going to suspended every player who cussed in that mess then neither team is going to be able to field a team. Cueto only gonna miss 1 start. Nothing big came from this whole brawl in terms of suspensions which is a good thing..

Sorry. I forgot the Cards didn't do anything wrong.

[ELE]

Sorry. I forgot the Cards didn't do anything wrong.


Never said that. BUT it makes no sense for you to want carp to be suspended for "cussing" at baker and not for phillips to be suspended for cussing out a whole team and town in public?

[Red Stocking]

Well Phillips started it with his comments and if we are going to suspended every player who cussed in that mess then neither team is going to be able to field a team. Cueto only gonna miss 1 start. Nothing big came from this whole brawl in terms of suspensions which is a good thing..

Carpenter should've been suspended four games just for discipline. Wouldn't miss a start, but would miss a few days of pay and a few days of games.

[Rijo's Ghost]

Baker and LaRussa both got 2, and 4 other players fined.

I'm surprised Molina, Phillips and Carpenter didnt get at least 1. Then again MLB probably doesnt want to upset LaRussa too much since he could probably just take the game he invented away.

It's pretty simple. Only one person from either team used any kind of violence. That was Cueto.

[Sham]

Well Phillips started it with his comments and if we are going to suspended every player who cussed in that mess then neither team is going to be able to field a team. Cueto only gonna miss 1 start. Nothing big came from this whole brawl in terms of suspensions which is a good thing..

Phillips started a physical confrontation with verbal comments to a reporter? Really?

Can we get rid of the trolls?

[KOBasinger]

Ridiculous considering neither Carpenter or Molina will see suspension.

Whatever.

[GIDP]

You can get rid of them by not replying.

[ELE]

Phillips started a physical confrontation with verbal comments to a reporter? Really?

Can we get rid of the trolls?



I am not trolling by any means. Let me ask you this. If phillips doesnt make those comments in the papers does that brawl happen?

[Yadi for Mayor]

You get a 50 game suspension for sticking a needle in your butt cheek, but a 7 game suspension for committing aggravated assault. Well that seems reasonable :rolleyes:

[XU Lou]

:runawaycr
Well Phillips started it with his comments and if we are going to suspended every player who cussed in that mess then neither team is going to be able to field a team. Cueto only gonna miss 1 start. Nothing big came from this whole brawl in terms of suspensions which is a good thing..

Sounds like one of my kids.

[DocRed]

Ridiculous that Carp the ***** didn't get any time....

[Illybey]

I have to say that I have seen some really down to earth posts here and I didn't expect that. Many Reds fans saw what happened and thought Cueto should be suspended and that is the right response. He was the only guy that went really violent.

I do think that Phillips should have been suspened a couple of games for starting the whole thing. He tapped Molina twice to try to incite him, did he think Molina and he were friends after all that he said? Very doubtful! he was trying to rub in the comments he had said and wanted to act like nothing happened.

[XU Lou]

Well Phillips started it with his comments and if we are going to suspended every player who cussed in that mess then neither team is going to be able to field a team. Cueto only gonna miss 1 start. Nothing big came from this whole brawl in terms of suspensions which is a good thing..


I am not trolling by any means. Let me ask you this. If phillips doesnt make those comments in the papers does that brawl happen?

I agree you are not trolling, and welcome to a sane forum. Now, your most recent question is very philosophical and difficult to defend. Your presumption is that no one is responsible for their own actions due to the previous actions of another...OMG...there's no free will in baseball!!!! Tom Hanks had it wrong, cuz we know there's crying, right?

[markymark69]

I am not trolling by any means. Let me ask you this. If phillips doesnt make those comments in the papers does that brawl happen?

Yeah, but if a brawl is going to start every time sombody pops off, the Cardinals would have been in a bunch of brawls, because they pop off all the time (complaining about the baseballs, accusing Arroyo of cheating, etc.). This is not the fourth grade where the bully has to protect his reputation.

Granted, Phillips probably shouldn't have said it, but Molina triggered the brawl, Phillips just triggered motivation.

[bgwilly31]

Dumb reds fans:


But he was just protecting himself.


He was getting smashed into a brickwall. His life was in danger.


I would have done the same thing if i was cueto.



Hate to say i told you so.

But cueto was the only gangsta trash ball in that whole pile up. Spiking somebody in the face i somewhat surprised he didnt get more.

Definitely getting the to the point where i dont like our two dominican pitchers. I would trade both of them for josh hamilton back right now.

[foxfire123]

I am not trolling by any means. Let me ask you this. If phillips doesnt make those comments in the papers does that brawl happen?

To be honest, I think the brawl would have happened sometime this season no matter what. Tension has been escalating between these two teams thanks to the Cardinals and LaRussa's BS complaints about Arroyo's hat and the balls and everything in between.

[takealeake]

Look on the bright side, now Walt can put Bailey in the rotation if he had any common sense whatsoever, and keep him there in place of Leake instead of his dumb plan to use Bailey in the pen and keep wearing Leake down.

[jules2]

I am not trolling by any means. Let me ask you this. If phillips doesnt make those comments in the papers does that brawl happen?

More the 2nd shin tap as an instigator? Colorful language but he's not the first to complain about other teams. Either way, curious to have seen where Garcia's first pitch was headed (and then probably the brawl starts)

[ELE]

Yeah, but if a brawl is going to start every time sombody pops off, the Cardinals would have been in a bunch of brawls, because they pop off all the time (complaining about the baseballs, accusing Arroyo of cheating, etc.). This is not the fourth grade where the bully has to protect his reputation.

Granted, Phillips probably shouldn't have said it, but Molina triggered the brawl, Phillips just triggered motivation.

never once has a cardinal come out and said anything along the line of what Phillips said. If someone calls your team a Beotch and says they hate you in the papers are you going to just sit back and take it??

[jules2]

More the 2nd shin tap as an instigator? Either way, curious to have seen where Garcia's first pitch was headed (and then probably the brawl starts)

[Illybey]

Yeah, but if a brawl is going to start every time sombody pops off, the Cardinals would have been in a bunch of brawls, because they pop off all the time (complaining about the baseballs, accusing Arroyo of cheating, etc.). This is not the fourth grade where the bully has to protect his reputation.

Granted, Phillips probably shouldn't have said it, but Molina triggered the brawl, Phillips just triggered motivation.

You don't think tapping Molina TWICE after calling him a B**** the day before started it? What if someone had called you that at work and then wanted to shake your hand the next day?

[markymark69]

Dumb reds fans:









Hate to say i told you so.

But cueto was the only gangsta trash ball in that whole pile up. Spiking somebody in the face i somewhat surprised he didnt get more.

Definitely getting the to the point where i dont like our two dominican pitchers. I would trade both of them for josh hamilton back right now.

Amazing how he didn't get tossed from the game, but yet he gets a seven-game suspension. One player, out of 40, who was for the most part defending himself, is the only one who gets suspended? That's amazing to me. Yet players who mouthed off (and I'm including Phillips in that) and instigated the brawl and then re-ignited it once again after it had appeared to have calmed down get a slap on the wrist.

But again, we are talking about Major League Baseball officials.

[Krawhitham]

johnfayman

RT @jjgoldy5: surprised Rolen didn't get disciplined? Carp must really have said something nasty.//As nasty as it gets in 2 words.

[ELE]

Just throwing this out there, but XM radio interviewed umpire Hunter Wendelstedt about his opinion on what happened in the fight. He said that he thought that Molina handled everything properly...

[Illybey]

Amazing how he didn't get tossed from the game, but yet he gets a seven-game suspension. One player, out of 40, who was for the most part defending himself, is the only one who gets suspended? That's amazing to me. Yet players who mouthed off (and I'm including Phillips in that) and instigated the brawl and then re-ignited it once again after it had appeared to have calmed down get a slap on the wrist.

But again, we are talking about Major League Baseball officials.

So now you think that "mouthing off" is a suspending offense, that is amazing.

[DocRed]

Just throwing this out there, but XM radio interviewed umpire Hunter Wendelstedt about his opinion on what happened in the fight. He said that he thought that Molina handled everything properly...

Means nothing....

[markymark69]

never once has a cardinal come out and said anything along the line of what Phillips said. If someone calls your team a Beotch and says they hate you in the papers are you going to just sit back and take it??

Accusing someone is cheating is pretty harsh. Sometimes you have to consider the source. If someone called me that - I would take issue with it, but I'm not ignite a brawl over it.

[ELE]

Means nothing....

haha i realize this... just giving someone elses perspective that isnt a die hard fan either way.

[bgwilly31]

Amazing how he didn't get tossed from the game, but yet he gets a seven-game suspension. One player, out of 40, who was for the most part defending himself, is the only one who gets suspended? That's amazing to me. Yet players who mouthed off (and I'm including Phillips in that) and instigated the brawl and then re-ignited it once again after it had appeared to have calmed down get a slap on the wrist.

But again, we are talking about Major League Baseball officials.



He kicked someone with metal Spikes in the face.

Are you missing that>?

[foxfire123]

Meh. think of it this way. Bring up Wood and Bailey, send Leake down for a rest, sit Johnny a game, and *he* comes back rested, and with something to prove. Carpenter has to work. :)

[DocRed]

Amazing how he didn't get tossed from the game, but yet he gets a seven-game suspension. One player, out of 40, who was for the most part defending himself, is the only one who gets suspended? That's amazing to me. Yet players who mouthed off (and I'm including Phillips in that) and instigated the brawl and then re-ignited it once again after it had appeared to have calmed down get a slap on the wrist.

But again, we are talking about Major League Baseball officials.

Umps don't have the benefit of instant replay to see who did what. I didn't see it the first time I saw the brawl live. I don't have a problem with Cueto suspension but good lord Carp should've gotten hit with about 4 games at least.

[bounty37h]

Well Phillips started it with his comments and if we are going to suspended every player who cussed in that mess then neither team is going to be able to field a team. Cueto only gonna miss 1 start. Nothing big came from this whole brawl in terms of suspensions which is a good thing..

Wrong, Phillips comments were the day before, the cards had a choice to let it slide or be confrontational; they picked the second, they should also have punishment for it. Molina made a point to get in his face, he could have responded "dont touch me again, we arent freinds (as he said), get in the box and hit" and would have accomplished the same goal. He wanted a fight when he stood on the plate and got in Phillips face. Gutless IMO.

[markymark69]

So now you think that "mouthing off" is a suspending offense, that is amazing.

Isn't that your whole point of how the brawl started? It triggered everything. If Carpenter doesn't pop off at Baker (and Dusty is not innocent in this either) than Cueto is not put into a position to kick. Things had calmed down and only escalated after Carpenter said something to Dusty. That should count for something.

I'm not saying that Cueto should not be suspended, but I think to be only player is not right?

If the argument comes back to Phillips should suspended because of what he said, which has been suggested, then others (Molina, Carpenter and anybody else) should receive something other than a small fine that will likely go to charity.

[markymark69]

He kicked someone with metal Spikes in the face.

Are you missing that>?

Not saying that he shouldn't be suspended, just surprised that he's only one. Where in my post do I say that he should not have received a suspension?

[DocRed]

So now you think that "mouthing off" is a suspending offense, that is amazing.

Your argument has no merit, since all LaRussa and Dusty did was mouth off and they both got suspended.

[ELE]

Wrong, Phillips comments were the day before, the cards had a choice to let it slide or be confrontational; they picked the second, they should also have punishment for it. Molina made a point to get in his face, he could have responded "dont touch me again, we arent freinds (as he said), get in the box and hit" and would have accomplished the same goal. He wanted a fight when he stood on the plate and got in Phillips face. Gutless IMO.

You cant call someone a beotch, then get in the box and tap their shin guard TWICE and not expect anything. Sorry you are wrong here. Why did Phillips go back and hit yadis shin guard a second time after he called yadi a beotch??? makes no sense to me. its not gutless either, its called sticking up for yourself and your team.

[mckbearcat48]

Heck, Reds fans should be happy that Cueto gets a rest before the end of the year. I am seeing it as one start, which isn't too bad. Only suspending one guy does look a little fishy, though.

[malcontent]

Just throwing this out there, but XM radio interviewed umpire Hunter Wendelstedt about his opinion on what happened in the fight. He said that he thought that Molina handled everything properly...
I don't think Molina should have even been fined. BP definitely tried to provoke him, going back a second time with the bat. How did he expect Molina to react?

Baker and Jocketty should have seen this coming a mile away, and waited too long to sit Phillips down and talk to him. Baker and LaRussa both deserved fines, I'm surprised with the suspensions.

All in all, the Reds caught a break with only the Cueto suspension. And with Wood, Bailey, Maloney and Harang available, it hardly dents the rotation.

[bounty37h]

You don't think tapping Molina TWICE after calling him a B**** the day before started it? What if someone had called you that at work and then wanted to shake your hand the next day?

Easy, I act like a grown up, shake it off and move along with my job like any other adult is expected to act. He can still say something without having to get in his face-thats confrontational and what started the physical parts. If our sport had a commish with any balls he and Carp would be suspended for instigating it too-esp Carp, not even playing in the game and being the biggest instigator out there with his mouth. He seems to want to be the mini white Zambrano, crazy headed out of control punk.

[ELE]

Easy, I act like a grown up, shake it off and move along with my job like any other adult is expected to act. He can still say something without having to get in his face-thats confrontational and what started the physical parts. If our sport had a commish with any balls he and Carp would be suspended for instigating it too-esp Carp, not even playing in the game and being the biggest instigator out there with his mouth. He seems to want to be the mini white Zambrano, crazy headed out of control punk.

Ok, well then he would have to suspend Phillips and Rolen also.

[lidspinner]

so Jason Larue is sitting on the bottom of the pile and someone cleats him in the face, we just assume its Cueto since he was kicking....that is hogwash....if your on the ground in a scruffle, chances are your getting stepped on and cleated.....Cueto is one of the smallest guys on the team and he was pitching that day.....he was towards the back of the argument trying to stau out pf it and he got physical pushed towards the net...he was scared I am sure...he got what he deserved, a little harsh, but I can live with it.

Brandon Phillips should be hit for a few games at least, bottom line is this battle started with him and could have ended with him...not saying he was totally wrong but the brawl started with him....twice. Once in the media and once in the batters box...reds fan or not, BP deserved alot more than he got. I love his attitude, but he derserves it as much as anyone.

Why in gods name is Carpenter not suspended....this whole brawl was over....let me repeat that, OVER....guys were even walking back towards their respective dugouts when Chris started jawing with Baker.....If Brandon instigated the brawl, then Carp did just as bad by instigating the 2nd part of the brawl....

Molina......to be perfectly honest....I hate the Cards a ton more after this incident than I did before....but I gained a little respect for Yadier.....you dont bash someone to the media and then cuddle up to them the next day...if BP hated them so much then why tap me on the shin? I wont be buying Yadier a drink anytime soon, but I sure respect the heck out of him a little more....he stepped up to to Phillips and he stepped up at the plate when the going got tuff....he walked the walk and talked the talk, something professionals rarely do these days...and something BP failed miserably at.

[bounty37h]

You cant call someone a beotch, then get in the box and tap their shin guard TWICE and not expect anything. Sorry you are wrong here. Why did Phillips go back and hit yadis shin guard a second time after he called yadi a beotch??? makes no sense to me. its not gutless either, its called sticking up for yourself and your team.

Well, in that case, you cant be beeotches all the time and not expect someone to call you out on it at some point and get upset about it then.

[Illybey]

Wrong, Phillips comments were the day before, the cards had a choice to let it slide or be confrontational; they picked the second, they should also have punishment for it. Molina made a point to get in his face, he could have responded "dont touch me again, we arent freinds (as he said), get in the box and hit" and would have accomplished the same goal. He wanted a fight when he stood on the plate and got in Phillips face. Gutless IMO.

If someone at your workplace called you bi*** THE DAY BEFORE, then wanted to shake your hand, you said no, then he tried again. What would you do? would you coward down and shake his hand and say nothing?

[ELE]

Replay clearly showed cueto connecting to larues face and throat. Not very hard to miss.

[takealeake]

If someone at your workplace called you bi*** THE DAY BEFORE, then wanted to shake your hand, you said no, then he tried again. What would you do? would you coward down and shake his hand and say nothing?

Truth is always a defense to slander. :beerme:

As Samuel L saying in Pulp Fiction: Does he LOOK like a -----??? :beerme:

[jules2]

if your on the ground in a scruffle, chances are your getting stepped on and cleated.....Cueto is one of the smallest guys on the team and he was pitching that day.....he was towards the back of the argument trying to stau out pf it and he got physical pushed towards the net...he was scared I am sure...he got what he deserved, a little harsh, but I can live with it.

Guess he could have crawled out ala Suppan.

[ELE]

Well, in that case, you cant be beeotches all the time and not expect someone to call you out on it at some point and get upset about it then.


I mean the reds dont like the cardinals because the cardinals win. Its called jealousy. Reds are a young team who havent been in this situation, phillips takes after his manager and said soemthing stupid. it happens.

[Illybey]

Easy, I act like a grown up, shake it off and move along with my job like any other adult is expected to act. He can still say something without having to get in his face-thats confrontational and what started the physical parts. If our sport had a commish with any balls he and Carp would be suspended for instigating it too-esp Carp, not even playing in the game and being the biggest instigator out there with his mouth. He seems to want to be the mini white Zambrano, crazy headed out of control punk.

Really, who else has done that too? I can tell by what you just said to me you would say something if someone called you a BI**CH. So you would have everyone that "mouthed" in that pushing match (except Cueto) suspended?

[malcontent]

If someone at your workplace called you bi*** THE DAY BEFORE, then wanted to shake your hand, you said no, then he tried again. What would you do? would you coward down and shake his hand and say nothing?
Precisely. Some of us here are being willfully dense on the point.

[Yadi for Mayor]

Easy, I act like a grown up, shake it off and move along with my job like any other adult is expected to act. He can still say something without having to get in his face-thats confrontational and what started the physical parts. If our sport had a commish with any balls he and Carp would be suspended for instigating it too-esp Carp, not even playing in the game and being the biggest instigator out there with his mouth. He seems to want to be the mini white Zambrano, crazy headed out of control punk.

Carp is not Zambrano. Zambrano is a me first nut case. Carpenter this season channeled Bob Gibson. A fiery competitor who hates you if he's on the other side. I could see how Carp's act could get old from an opposing team's perspective. But I'm loving his new found badassness, and am especially loving the throwback that he is being a throwback to Bob Gibson.

[Illybey]

Precisely. Some of us here are being willfully dense on the point.

Thank you, you are one of the down to earth, smarter Reds fans I was talking about earlier. I would like to think I thought like you if the shoe were on the other foot.

[bounty37h]

If someone at your workplace called you bi*** THE DAY BEFORE, then wanted to shake your hand, you said no, then he tried again. What would you do? would you coward down and shake his hand and say nothing?

I work with kids in the court system, and have to demonstrate common sense and self control, so yes, I get called a bit quite often, and have to let it slide, like any adult is expected to do. If you got in someones face at work and it started a big physical confrontation, would you not get fired???

[foxfire123]

I mean the reds dont like the cardinals because the cardinals win. Its called jealousy. Reds are a young team who havent been in this situation, phillips takes after his manager and said soemthing stupid. it happens.

It's not jealousy. It's called being fed up with the arrogance and attitude from them and their fans. Those self professed "best fans in baseball" actually need some lessons in both manners and sportsmanship.

[Illybey]

I work with kids in the court system, and have to demonstrate common sense and self control, so yes, I get called a bit quite often, and have to let it slide, like any adult is expected to do. If you got in someones face at work and it started a big physical confrontation, would you not get fired???

Not if they called me a BI**H first. BTW was there a chance they were going to fire Phillips ? Firing is not the equal, wrote up is closer.

[Illybey]

It's not jealousy. It's called being fed up with the arrogance and attitude from them and their fans. Those self professed "best fans in baseball" actually need some lessons in both manners and sportsmanship.

Do you think getting on national Tv and calling a whole team BI**hes is good manners and sportsmanship?

[foxfire123]

Carpenter this season channeled Bob Gibson. A fiery competitor who hates you if he's on the other side. I could see how Carp's act could get old from an opposing team's perspective. .

I'm a little lost here. It's OK with you if [B]CARPENTER[B] hates the other side, but not OK if Phillips does? Brandon just made it public how he feels.

[bounty37h]

Really, who else has done that too? I can tell by what you just said to me you would say something if someone called you a BI**CH. So you would have everyone that "mouthed" in that pushing match (except Cueto) suspended?

I dont get what your asking or trying to say, but I am saying Molina could have still said every word he said- dont touch me, we arent friends, whatever, blah blah blah, but should have ended it there with crouching behind the plate and playing the game; getting up and waiting for him on the plate is being confrontational.

[markymark69]

Thank you, you are one of the down to earth, smarter Reds fans I was talking about earlier. I would like to think I thought like you if the shoe were on the other foot.

The real point is - all of the ones who had direct action (whether it is mouthing or kicking) in the melee should have been suspended. I'm not talking about the ones who were milling around or the ones (on both sides) who were trying to play peacemaker.

If a fight breaks out at school, one person mouths and the other one kicks, I believe both get punished. Because the action caused the reaction. One probably gets punished more severely than the other, but both would be punished. A fine to a multimillion dollar baseball player is not a punishment.

One thing led to other happening - it would not be out of the question to see this type of disciplined handed out in other walks of life.

Cueto should get the most, no doubt, but for all the other players who were more involved in just being out there should have received some type of suspension, in my opinion (if I'm allowed to have one - without being called some kind of name by our apparent Cardinal friends on the board).

[10xWSChamps]

If the Reds were smart they would have either formally suspended Brandon Phillips for a few games or at least privately disciplined him and sat him on the bench for the series.

Say what you want about Cardinals but if Skip Schumaker went and told reporters that he hated the Reds 4-5 times and called them "little beotches" twice, the organization would have handled it internally and you wouldn't have seen Skip for that series.

I really have to wonder if they even talked to him at all or if they're trying to assemble a mini-Bengals team over at Great American Ballpark because I heard Phillips was mouthing off about how the Reds are still a much better team then the Cardinals. You would think the organization would restrict media access or at least have Baker put some duct tape on his mouth in the post game.

[redssince75]

Sorry. I forgot the Cards didn't do anything wrong.

MLB thought they did something wrong:

LaRussa - suspension
Carpenter - fine
Molina - fine


That's pretty proportionate to what they did wrong.

[foxfire123]

Do you think getting on national Tv and calling a whole team BI**hes is good manners and sportsmanship?

Did you happen to notice I wrote that the self professed best FANS could take lessons? Didn't mention the players there.

[Illybey]

I'm a little lost here. It's OK with you if CARPENTER[B] hates the other side, but not OK if Phillips does? [B]Brandon just made it public how he feels.

There is your answer, no one ever started a fight FEELING a certain way

[Illybey]

The real point is - all of the ones who had direct action (whether it is mouthing or kicking) in the melee should have been suspended. I'm not talking about the ones who were milling around or the ones (on both sides) who were trying to play peacemaker.

If a fight breaks out at school, one person mouths and the other one kicks, I believe both get punished. Because the action caused the reaction. One probably gets punished more severely than the other, but both would be punished. A fine to a multimillion dollar baseball player is not a punishment.

One thing led to other happening - it would not be out of the question to see this type of disciplined handed out in other walks of life.

Cueto should get the most, no doubt, but for all the other players who were more involved in just being out there should have received some type of suspension, in my opinion (if I'm allowed to have one - without being called some kind of name by our apparent Cardinal friends on the board).

I just don't think you are looking at it rationally as if the shoe were on the other foot, the guy I posted that too was. He had the character to realize the what really happened and didn't let his personal bias get in the way and still hope that I can look at like he and MANY Reds fans are.

I understand that as a Reds fan you feel "wronged" because the whole thing happened at all. But suspending Carp for yelling at Dusty is bias and just not right.

[Jack Burton]

Crapenter should have definitely been suspended.

[swaisuc]

If the Reds were smart they would have either formally suspended Brandon Phillips for a few games or at least privately disciplined him and sat him on the bench for the series.

Say what you want about Cardinals but if Skip Schumaker went and told reporters that he hated the Reds 4-5 times and called them "little beotches" twice, the organization would have handled it internally and you wouldn't have seen Skip for that series.
I really have to wonder if they even talked to him at all or if they're trying to assemble a mini-Bengals team over at Great American Ballpark because I heard Phillips was mouthing off about how the Reds are still a much better team then the Cardinals. You would think the organization would restrict media access or at least have Baker put some duct tape on his mouth in the post game.

This is complete BS.

And if you're going to try this ridiculous claim, at least make it a comparable player. Would the Cardinals sit Matt Holliday a whole series in a battle for 1st for comments to the media 1 time? Of course not. If it was fringe player like Schumaker or Janish, then its possible they might get talked to or benched to start 1 game or something. Regardless, you're insane if you think any team would bench anyone a whole series.

[jules2]

I dont get what your asking or trying to say, but I am saying Molina could have still said every word he said- dont touch me, we arent friends, whatever, blah blah blah, but should have ended it there with crouching behind the plate and playing the game; getting up and waiting for him on the plate is being confrontational.

I'd probably agree Molina was looking to start something based on what BP said, but have to say either way it'd be pretty hard after the comments, two shin taps, knowing the game is televised, Cards fans are all "out for blood" for Molina to just sit there. Not "exactly" the same setting as the workplace analogy.

[bounty37h]

I'd probably agree Molina was looking to start something based on what BP said, but have to say either way it'd be pretty hard after the comments, two shin taps, knowing the game is televised, Cards fans are all "out for blood" for Molina to just sit there. Not "exactly" the same setting as the workplace analogy.

Why not, your paid to be there and get a job done. People watching means you should be even more careful, knowing so many kids and people are watching and you dont want their lasting image of you to be the guy who got in someone elses face and started a fight. If Molina has simply said I dont like you, dont touch me again, and squated down and played the game I wouldnt have any problems with him.

[Illybey]

I dont get what your asking or trying to say, but I am saying Molina could have still said every word he said- dont touch me, we arent friends, whatever, blah blah blah, but should have ended it there with crouching behind the plate and playing the game; getting up and waiting for him on the plate is being confrontational.

It would have ended there if Phillips had not tapped Molina a second time.

[Griffey012]

If the Reds were smart they would have either formally suspended Brandon Phillips for a few games or at least privately disciplined him and sat him on the bench for the series.

Say what you want about Cardinals but if Skip Schumaker went and told reporters that he hated the Reds 4-5 times and called them "little beotches" twice, the organization would have handled it internally and you wouldn't have seen Skip for that series.

I really have to wonder if they even talked to him at all or if they're trying to assemble a mini-Bengals team over at Great American Ballpark because I heard Phillips was mouthing off about how the Reds are still a much better team then the Cardinals. You would think the organization would restrict media access or at least have Baker put some duct tape on his mouth in the post game.

I think the Reds should sit him for a couple games as punishment for totally sucking the entire series after running his mouth. Run your mouth and tear it up in the series than the Reds look like a well oiled machine not to be messed with. Run your mouth and suck while your team gets swept, you just made Cincinnati look like a bunch of fools instead of a "feel good" baseball team, that many fans of other teams can jump on and root for, much like the Rays a few seasons ago.

The discipline is fair, Yadier doesn't deserve a suspension, he got in the face of a player and that was that, just as Phillips doesn't deserve one either, neither of the 2 players escalated the melee after the initial argument. Suspending Carpenter really becomes an issue of what he said to spark things, but in reality his actions may have warranted a game or two suspension, and he is a pitcher so unless he is getting suspended 5 games or more it doesn't matter.

Cueto reminded me a lot of Stephen Jackson during the malice at the palace between the Pacers and Pistons, I am sure some of it was self defense, but he was kicking longer than he should have been, and sliced the lip of LaRue, yes LaRue was stitched up, however I don't buy the concussion story. 7 games is fair, after all its really only 1 start.

Cueto misses 1 start, bad thing is we some reason sent our best pitcher for the last month, Travis Wood, to AAA. Smart thinking Walt. Hopefully Bailey looks like the end of last season Bailey, this could be a blessing in disguise if Homer shines and continues to shine.

[Jack Burton]

Didn't Yadier Homolina initiate the brawl? Suspend him.

[Illybey]

Didn't Yadier Homolina initiate the brawl? Suspend him.

There were a few events before that that really started, even a simpleton knows that :)

[jules2]

Why not, your paid to be there and get a job done. People watching means you should be even more careful, knowing so many kids and people are watching and you dont want their lasting image of you to be the guy who got in someone elses face and started a fight. If Molina has simply said I dont like you, dont touch me again, and squated down and played the game I wouldnt have any problems with him.

Point taken. I haven't reviewed the confrontation yet, but if Molina said anything to the effect of we're not friends, I'm not your -, don't touch me again" then BP should have laid off the 2nd tap. But with the kick, yeah, he seems to have wanted it to go down that way.

[ELE]

Didn't Yadier Homolina initiate the brawl? Suspend him.


Homolina? lol

anyways yadier told phillips not to touch him when he came up to bat. what did phillips do? touched him twice. i dont forsee phillips staying in that organization long knowing how jocketty likes to run a team. that kind of stuff doesnt fly in a professional organization...

[Illybey]

Point taken. I haven't reviewed the confrontation yet, but if Molina said anything to the effect of we're not friends, I'm not your -, don't touch me again" then BP should have laid off the 2nd tap. But with the kick, yeah, he seems to have wanted it to go down that way.

There it is, the TRUTH!

[markymark69]

I just don't think you are looking at it rationally as if the shoe were on the other foot, the guy I posted that too was. He had the character to realize the what really happened and didn't let his personal bias get in the way and still hope that I can look at like he and MANY Reds fans are.

I understand that as a Reds fan you feel "wronged" because the whole thing happened at all. But suspending Carp for yelling at Dusty is bias and just not right.

I think you are missing the point. I'm saying both Reds and Cards players involved should be suspended. You are the one who is being biased, by saying that because the Reds started it or because Cueto was the only found to be doing anything violent that justice has been served.

I think because the focus has shifted to Carpenter, who wasn't even playing in the game- you are panicky because he is your stud pitcher and you don't want him miss a start.

In other sports, if you come off the bench - you get suspended, period end of discussion. There is no way to suspend everyone, so you suspend the principals involved and like it or not, accept it or not, Carpenter was one of the principals involved.

Again let me repeat so you don't miss the point - I feel the same way about the principal Reds players involved also.

[Jack Burton]

There were a few events before that that really started, even a simpleton knows that :)

Sticks and stones bill. Anyways, Homolina iniated the brawl by trying to kung fu quick kick BPhils bat, unacceptable.

[Illybey]

I think you are missing the point. I'm saying both Reds and Cards players involved should be suspended. You are the one who is being biased, by saying that because the Reds started it or because Cueto was the only found to be doing anything violent that justice has been served.

I think because the focus has shifted to Carpenter, who wasn't even playing in the game- you are panicky because he is your stud pitcher and you don't want him miss a start.

In other sports, if you come off the bench - you get suspended, period end of discussion. There is no way to suspend everyone, so you suspend the principals involved and like it or not, accept it or not, Carpenter was one of the principals involved.

Again let me repeat so you don't miss the point - I feel the same way about the principal Reds players involved also.

What I am saying is Carp is NOT a principal. Did he hit anyone or strike them in anyway, kicking or tapping. What I am saying is the principals are the ones who physically did something. I will add that the first tap is not so bad, but second is what tips the scales.

[Illybey]

Sticks and stones bill. Anyways, Homolina iniated the brawl by trying to kung fu quick kick BPhils bat, unacceptable.

Whatever, I can see what poster you are and won't play :cool:

[jules2]

I will add that the first tap is not so bad, but second is what tips the scales.

Agreed, but even if BP didn't do that, something would have happened. I figured after a very high and inside first pitch we'd see a fight. (not saying throwing at a guy is a classy move, but it happens)

[markymark69]

What I am saying is Carp is NOT a principal. Did he hit anyone or strike them in anyway, kicking or tapping. What I am saying is the principals are the ones who physically did something. I will add that the first tap is not so bad, but second is what tips the scales.

His chirping occurred before Cueto's kick, just like Phillips and Molina. If he is a professional, like the Cardinals all profess to be. Be a professional and help get your teammates back to the dugout and do not engage the opposing team's manager.

The "brawl" was over and whatever the exchange between Dusty and Carpenter was sent the mass of players into the netting and triggered Cueto's kicking.

We'll agree to disagree, but the Cards got off easy and you can garbage a rose if you want to, but it still stinks.

[10xWSChamps]

Homolina? lol

anyways yadier told phillips not to touch him when he came up to bat. what did phillips do? touched him twice. i dont forsee phillips staying in that organization long knowing how jocketty likes to run a team. that kind of stuff doesnt fly in a professional organization...

I agree with your last two sentences. I don't think Reds fans should get too attached to Phillips because I imagine there's about a 1% chance that Jocketty is now interested in re-signing him

[Illybey]

His chirping occurred before Cueto's kick, just like Phillips and Molina. If he is a professional, like the Cardinals all profess to be. Be a professional and help get your teammates back to the dugout and do not engage the opposing team's manager.

The "brawl" was over and whatever the exchange between Dusty and Carpenter was sent the mass of players into the netting and triggered Cueto's kicking.

We'll agree to disagree, but the Cards got off easy and you can garbage a rose if you want to, but it still stinks.

I think the Reds got off easy, Phillips should have been suspended too.

[markymark69]

I think the Reds got off easy, Phillips should have been suspended too.

I'm not disputing that if you would actually read my posts.

[Jack Burton]

While they're at it they should have suspended Mr. PuHGH-jols for obvious reasons.

[texasdave]

Heck, Reds fans should be happy that Cueto gets a rest before the end of the year. I am seeing it as one start, which isn't too bad. Only suspending one guy does look a little fishy, though.

He doesn't even miss a start. Say he starts on Monday.
Goes on suspension on Tuesday. He comes back and starts next Tuesday. If the Reds have a Thursday off he wouldn't have started until Sunday anyway. He gets pushed back two days. If they have a Thursday-Monday off somewhere along the line he gets pushed back one day.

[code]

I find it funny that "Molina" is a welfair insurance in Ohio.

Take that!!!!!!!!!!

[ThornWithin81]

I think they got it right. Suspend both managers for an equal amount of time and suspend the one player who injured another player during the scrap. I think Cueto was just panicked and defending himself, but he did pop a guy in the face with his cleat. That's a no-no.

Suspending Carpenter for two or three games wouldn't do anything major. Furthermore, if you suspend Carpenter for going after Dusty... you have to suspend Rolen for going after Carpenter.

And if you suspend Molina for getting in Phillips face, you have to suspend Phillips for getting back into Molina's face instead of shrugging it off.

I'll take it.

[DocRed]

I think the Reds got off easy, Phillips should have been suspended too.

You would because your a Cardinals fan.

[Illybey]

He doesn't even miss a start. Say he starts on Monday.
Goes on suspension on Tuesday. He comes back and starts next Tuesday. If the Reds have a Thursday off he wouldn't have started until Sunday anyway. He gets pushed back two days. If they have a Thursday-Monday off somewhere along the line he gets pushed back one day.

7 games not 7 days, oh you are saying change him in the rotation? erm that could make a lot of issues down the road.

[ThornWithin81]

Amazing how he didn't get tossed from the game, but yet he gets a seven-game suspension. One player, out of 40, who was for the most part defending himself, is the only one who gets suspended? That's amazing to me. Yet players who mouthed off (and I'm including Phillips in that) and instigated the brawl and then re-ignited it once again after it had appeared to have calmed down get a slap on the wrist.

But again, we are talking about Major League Baseball officials.

He didn't get tossed from the game because his kicks were only visible via a replay of the fight. The umpires were behind the mass of humanity. Are they supposed to call a fight review delay for 15 minutes to decide who should be ejected?

There's nothing amazing about the way this went down. The umpires on the field handled it correctly by simply ejecting the managers and the MLB officials handled it correctly by suspending the most violent player of the entire scrum and the two managers that failed to control/diffuse the tensions between the Reds and Cardinals going into the game.

If you suspend Carpenter and Molina two or three games each for their involvement, you have to suspend Rolen and Phillips the same amount of games for their involvement. That exchange would hurt the Reds far more than the Redbirds.

[texasdave]

7 games not 7 days, oh you are saying change him in the rotation? erm that could make a lot of issues down the road.

My bad. I read it as 7 days. You are absolutely right.

[GIDP]

I thought it was go down like this

Cueto 6 games
Phillips 1
Molina 1

Carpenter started the whole fight back up because he went out of his way. If he was a position player he would have gotten a game or 2 also, but since hes not his fine probably was just huge.

I'm really really surprised to see that Molina and Phillips didnt get at least 1 game each.

[bounty37h]

It would have ended there if Phillips had not tapped Molina a second time.

And he had walked away and was taking a few swings vbefore gettging in the box-he was prepared to play, Molina chose to get up and wait for him in the box-thats the batters space he was in. I am not defending Brandons actions the night before, but more saying to cards fans here to stop acting like none of your guys are accountable either, your not a victim here.

[Illybey]

I thought it was go down like this

Cueto 6 games
Phillips 1
Molina 1

Carpenter started the whole fight back up because he went out of his way. If he was a position player he would have gotten a game or 2 also, but since hes not his fine probably was just huge.

I'm really really surprised to see that Molina and Phillips didnt get at least 1 game each.

Guys I'm telling you, no one outside of Reds fans think Molina or Carp did anything wrong. Did you guys hear Mike and Mike after it happened?

I understand that carp is our best pitcher and you guys would like to see him miss a start but "jawing" someone is just not that kind of offense. now if he had brought a bat out and tapped Dusty on the leg 2 times...

[ThornWithin81]

Also, and this has already been touched on at least a few times:

Phillips actually instigated the brawl. He walks up to Molina and taps him on the shin - this is a player that he has (basically) called a ***** 24 hours prior. Molina ignores him. Instead of accepting that the Cardinals are not going to be pleasant with him, Phillips taps Molina again, demanding a greeting.

Molina proceeds to tell Phillips off. Things escalate. Brawl ensues.

What is Molina supposed to do? I like Brandon's fire and I'm glad we fought - even with the subsequent sweep - but Molina felt the need to stand up for his ballclub, just as Brandon felt the need to step up for his ballclub.

I like that passion from both parties.

[ThornWithin81]

Guys I'm telling you, no one outside of Reds fans think Molina or Carp did anything wrong. Did you guys hear Mike and Mike after it happened?

I understand that carp is our best pitcher and you guys would like to see him miss a start but "jawing" someone is just not that kind of offense. now if he had brought a bat out and tapped Dusty on the leg 2 times...

Carpenter was out of line. He wasn't even in the game - he pushes into the middle of the fray in a warmup jacket and starts hurling insults at Dusty Baker. When your ex-teammate Scott Rolen is furious enough to get physical with you in that situation, you have obviously crossed a line.

I don't care if the talking heads at ESPN agree or disagree with that sentiment. Carpenter was out of line and I don't need a reporter to echo that to know that it is true.

[Illybey]

And he had walked away and was taking a few swings vbefore gettging in the box-he was prepared to play, Molina chose to get up and wait for him in the box-thats the batters space he was in. I am not defending Brandons actions the night before, but more saying to cards fans here to stop acting like none of your guys are accountable either, your not a victim here.

Did you not see the second tap or something? The first tap is fine, but he did it again to get a rise out of him. Molina had to get up and do something or he really would have been the BI**H he was called.

[markymark69]

I find it hilarious that Cardinal fans come on this board and expect us Reds fans to be all giddy and in agreement with the fact that except for LaRussa, they get off essentially scott free, well because they're the Cardinals.

It's the ole classic double standard. It's okay for us to instigate and accuse people of cheating and complain about this or that and everybody should just take it, because they're the Cardinals.

They preach professionalism, but when they fail to act like professionals - well it's the other guys fault "because he hurt my feelings." He can't say that to us because "we're the Cardinals."

What they should have done and left it at that was beat the snot out of the Reds, which they did. They cheapened what they did, because they had to use it as motivation because they've underacheived all season. If you are true professionals you rise above criticism, not give into it or do the same thing because the other guy did.

Brandon Phillips failed at it too and probably so did Dusty and others. But, the Reds at least aren't hypocritical. They don't go around claiming this and claiming that and then doing the opposite or blaming the other guy for their reaction.

The whole thing was bad for baseball and the Cardinals were just as guilty as the Reds were.

[Illybey]

Carpenter was out of line. He wasn't even in the game - he pushes into the middle of the fray in a warmup jacket and starts hurling insults at Dusty Baker. When your ex-teammate Scott Rolen is furious enough to get physical with you in that situation, you have obviously crossed a line.

I don't care if the talking heads at ESPN agree or disagree with that sentiment. Carpenter was out of line and I don't need a reporter to echo that to know that it is true.

You are just saying that because Carp is great pitch for the Cards, if it had been a scrub you wouldn't even care. It is just stupidity to say you suspend a guy for Jawing, I don't even think Phillips should be suspended for cussing the entire cardinal organization.

[swaisuc]

Also, and this has already been touched on at least a few times:

Phillips actually instigated the brawl. He walks up to Molina and taps him on the shin - this is a player that he has (basically) called a ***** 24 hours prior. Molina ignores him. Instead of accepting that the Cardinals are not going to be pleasant with him, Phillips taps Molina again, demanding a greeting.

Molina proceeds to tell Phillips off. Things escalate. Brawl ensues.

What is Molina supposed to do? I like Brandon's fire and I'm glad we fought - even with the subsequent sweep - but Molina felt the need to stand up for his ballclub, just as Brandon felt the need to step up for his ballclub.

I like that passion from both parties.


I generally agree with your point, but Molina didn't ignore him. He kicks the bat away on the tap and starts talking immediately. He decided before he even took the field that when Phillips came up and tapped like he always does, he was going to be ready for it. He basically admitted as much in the postgame interview.

FWIW, I really don't have a big problem with any of it from either team. Its a playoff race between teams that don't like each other. Things happen.

[bounty37h]

Guys I'm telling you, no one outside of Reds fans think Molina or Carp did anything wrong. Did you guys hear Mike and Mike after it happened?

I understand that carp is our best pitcher and you guys would like to see him miss a start but "jawing" someone is just not that kind of offense. now if he had brought a bat out and tapped Dusty on the leg 2 times...

Contradict much??? Bphil is the worst person in the world for running his mouth, but its ok for Carp to do it?? I think thats why fans hate the Cards, the double standard that they seem to feel entitled to.

[GIDP]

Reds should just accuse the Cardinals of cheating every time they win. Or say they are just a hot team with no talent. Or you know try to spike their 2nd baseman every chance they get. Or try to throw at their starting pitchers head.

You know stuff classy teams do.

[Griffey012]

Guys I'm telling you, no one outside of Reds fans think Molina or Carp did anything wrong. Did you guys hear Mike and Mike after it happened?

I understand that carp is our best pitcher and you guys would like to see him miss a start but "jawing" someone is just not that kind of offense. now if he had brought a bat out and tapped Dusty on the leg 2 times...

I can agree that Molina was provoked and didn't do anything very far out of line. People would say he should have just ignored it and went on but no professional athlete or any of us would have no reaction to that. But to think Carpenter didnt do anything wrong is just ludicrous, sorry.

[Illybey]

Contradict much??? Bphil is the worst person in the world for running his mouth, but its ok for Carp to do it?? I think thats why fans hate the Cards, the double standard that they seem to feel entitled to.

Look up 2 posts where I say that Phillips should not be suspended for "Jawing", it is the second tap that should get him suspended. Where exactly is my double standard?

[ThornWithin81]

You are just saying that because Carp is great pitch for the Cards, if it had been a scrub you wouldn't even care. It is just stupidity to say you suspend a guy for Jawing, I don't even think Phillips should be suspended for cussing the entire cardinal organization.

Go back and find the "Chris Carpenter is a..." thread from a few days back. My initial response to that prompt, even after he went after Brenden Ryan was "a great pitcher with passion."

Whatever he said to Dusty, it was obviously inappropriate. Scott Rolen is not a guy who snaps easily. He went from calm to murderous rage in a hurry. Carpenter had no business being in Dusty's face and whatever he said was out of line, period.

Also, I should point out that I DON'T think Carpenter should have been suspended. I simply stated that he was out of line. Getting dominated by Scott Rolen and carried into the fence like a ***** was punishment enough. :cool:

[fielder's choice]

It would have ended there if Phillips had not tapped Molina a second time.

Exactly, in fact if Molina hadnt reacted the way he did I would have thought he was a little *****

[ThornWithin81]

I generally agree with your point, but Molina didn't ignore him. He kicks the bat away on the tap and starts talking immediately. He decided before he even took the field that when Phillips came up and tapped like he always does, he was going to be ready for it. He basically admitted as much in the postgame interview.

FWIW, I really don't have a big problem with any of it from either team. Its a playoff race between teams that don't like each other. Things happen.

I wasn't aware of this - the camera wasn't focused on their interaction when it happened live.

Still, I can't really fault Molina for standing up against a guy who was that aggressive towards his team. The only person who needed to be suspended (beyond the skippers) was suspended. You can't start using those cleats to hurt people, even if you are doing so out of a panic.

Furthermore... what the hell was little Cueto doing in there in the first place? You're the starting pitcher sitting on the bench waiting for the top of the second. Let the position players go out there and fight that battle. I can understand why Garcia was right in the middle of it, he was on the mound and ran in as soon as things got heated. Cueto should have used his head and stayed to the fringe. I can't sit here and criticize Chrissy Carpenter for running into the middle without throwing the same criticism at Cueto too.

That would be hypocritical.


Look up 2 posts where I say that Phillips should not be suspended for "Jawing", it is the second tap that should get him suspended. Where exactly is my double standard?

Phillips should not have been suspended for tapping him on the shin again. The three suspensions that were handed out were the correct suspensions. Let's leave it at that and move on.

[bounty37h]

Did you not see the second tap or something? The first tap is fine, but he did it again to get a rise out of him. Molina had to get up and do something or he really would have been the BI**H he was called.

OK, and like i said, if thats the route you wanna go then you have to be ready if there is punishment. There wasnt any, so no issue, but it makes him just as guilty in my opinion, and it would in court if a fight had broken out in real world public. I see it every week in court, a fight goes to court, someone says "well, he said blah blah bla so I stepped up to him", and the judge says "you should not have stepped up to him, there are more appropriate ways to handle it" and they both get their appropriate punishment. If Molina cant take being called a little childish name like that, he really doesnt need to be in public. If someone cuts him off in traffic and calls him a beeotch and flips him the bird, does he confront them?

[Illybey]

I can agree that Molina was provoked and didn't do anything very far out of line. People would say he should have just ignored it and went on but no professional athlete or any of us would have no reaction to that. But to think Carpenter didnt do anything wrong is just ludicrous, sorry.

Did he do anything worse than going in front of the nation and calling a team a bunch of BI***HES ? Have you never seen players jaw each other and get nothing? Because I have been physical in any way, he should be in trouble.

[markymark69]

OK, and like i said, if thats the route you wanna go then you have to be ready if there is punishment. There wasnt any, so no issue, but it makes him just as guilty in my opinion, and it would in court if a fight had broken out in real world public. I see it every week in court, a fight goes to court, someone says "well, he said blah blah bla so I stepped up to him", and the judge says "you should not have stepped up to him, there are more appropriate ways to handle it" and they both get their appropriate punishment. If Molina cant take being called a little childish name like that, he really doesnt need to be in public. If someone cuts him off in traffic and calls him a beeotch and flips him the bird, does he confront them?

Good post. But, don't facts in get in the way of other people's opinion. :D

[Illybey]

OK, and like i said, if thats the route you wanna go then you have to be ready if there is punishment. There wasnt any, so no issue, but it makes him just as guilty in my opinion, and it would in court if a fight had broken out in real world public. I see it every week in court, a fight goes to court, someone says "well, he said blah blah bla so I stepped up to him", and the judge says "you should not have stepped up to him, there are more appropriate ways to handle it" and they both get their appropriate punishment. If Molina cant take being called a little childish name like that, he really doesnt need to be in public. If someone cuts him off in traffic and calls him a beeotch and flips him the bird, does he confront them?

So you think that if saying something is the equal to physical contact? It just isn't.

Just toooo ridiculous to comment on. Your courts are messed up to if that is the case, it wouldn't go that way here.

[jules2]

The whole thing was bad for baseball and the Cardinals were just as guilty as the Reds were.

I'd agree but kind of nice to have a series to look forward to besides the cubs. I'm curious to see how fast tickets started going after this past weekend's games.

[ThornWithin81]

I don't see how the fight was bad for baseball in any way, shape or form.

Some of the most memorable baseball moments have been confrontations. See: Nolan Ryan beating the crap out of Robin Ventura. See Also: George Brett's insanity over the pinetar incident.

Passion is good for baseball. If they had gone into the stands and started brawling with fans - THAT - would have been bad for baseball.

EDIT: Edited the Nolan Ryan reference to Robin Ventura instead of Will Clark. Don't know why I always mess that one up.

[Illybey]

I don't see how the fight was bad for baseball in any way, shape or form.

Some of the most memorable baseball moments have been confrontations. See: Nolan Ryan beating the crap out of Will Clark. See Also: George Brett's insanity over the pinetar incident.

Passion is good for baseball. If they had gone into the stands and started brawling with fans - THAT - would have been bad for baseball.

I agree with you there and I bet the MLB marketing dept does too :)

[jules2]

I agree with you there and I bet the MLB marketing dept does too :)

Highest ratings this year, wasn't it?

[bounty37h]

Look up 2 posts where I say that Phillips should not be suspended for "Jawing", it is the second tap that should get him suspended. Where exactly is my double standard?

Sorry, I did have you and another poster who start this page saying Phillips should have been sus[peneded adn the Reds got off too easy. Thats the stuff that is p'ing off reds fans on here I think. I dont think he should get suspended for a llil ol tap, I took that as "yeah, I know I ran my mouth yesterday, but lets man up and just play ball"

[redssince75]

Some of the most memorable baseball moments have been confrontations. See: Nolan Ryan beating the crap out of Will Clark.


I thought it was Robin Ventura.

[10xWSChamps]

I don't see how the fight was bad for baseball in any way, shape or form.

Some of the most memorable baseball moments have been confrontations. See: Nolan Ryan beating the crap out of Will Clark. See Also: George Brett's insanity over the pinetar incident.

Passion is good for baseball. If they had gone into the stands and started brawling with fans - THAT - would have been bad for baseball.

I agree and I think people are taking it too seriously.

Cueto's suspension is the only real punishment here and even assuming the Reds lose that game I doubt the division will come down to half of a game.

[Griffey012]

Did he do anything worse than going in front of the nation and calling a team a bunch of BI***HES ? Have you never seen players jaw each other and get nothing? Because I have been physical in any way, he should be in trouble.

No, because the Cards are a bunch of ******** :D. Kidding, just had to do it.

I never said Phillips didn't do anything wrong. I simply stated to think Carpenter did nothing wrong is ludicrous. Sorry, it's the truth.

[ThornWithin81]

I thought it was Robin Ventura.

My bad, you're right on that one. I don't know why I always think it was Clark. :bash:

[Illybey]

I thought it was Robin Ventura.

It was Ventura and AWESOME!

[bounty37h]

So you think that if saying something is the equal to physical contact? It just isn't.

Just toooo ridiculous to comment on. Your courts are messed up to if that is the case, it wouldn't go that way here.

Huh, do you comprehend what you read??? I don't even know what your first sentence is trying to say so cant respond to any of the rest. I can assure you that is how it would go down in any court house across the country though, cant say I started a physical confrontation because someone called me a name and act like oyu ad no role in it. You should have learned that in kindergarden.

[markymark69]

I agree with you there and I bet the MLB marketing dept does too :)

If it was good for baseball, why did you come on this board, complaining and moaning about what Phillips did and what Cueto did? We spent all afternoon discussing this - Cueto injures one of your players, Carpenter even gets some cuts out of it and it's probably fortunate that others did not get hurt and now you don't think it's bad for baseball?

From a rivalry prospective, yes, it's good, passion, yes, but the behavior (that's what I'm referring to) is not acceptable for professional athletes.

[jules2]

Guess could have just let Molina and Phillips duke it out? :p

[Illybey]

No, because the Cards are a bunch of ******** :D. Kidding, just had to do it.

I never said Phillips didn't do anything wrong. I simply stated to think Carpenter did nothing wrong is ludicrous. Sorry, it's the truth.

When did I say he did nothing wrong? I said he shouldn't be suspended. He should have been fined as he was. However, the guy that started all this Phillips, should have been suspended for the second tap. Not when he spewed the crap he did. Not when he tapped Molina the first time, but the second tap was tooo much.

[Illybey]

If it was good for baseball, why did you come on this board, complaining and moaning about what Phillips did and what Cueto did? We spent all afternoon discussing this - Cueto injures one of your players, Carpenter even gets some cuts out of it and it's probably fortunate that others did not get hurt and now you don't think it's bad for baseball?

From a rivalry prospective, yes, it's good, passion, yes, but the behavior (that's what I'm referring to) is not acceptable for professional athletes.

Simple, everyone on the Cards boards agrees totally with me, not one person disagrees. I wanted to see what the Reds fans thought, as I said before there I was surprised to see the people that were level headed and thought Cueto was lucky to loose only 1 start and Phillips...

Good or Bad publicity is still publicity.

[Griffey012]

Guys I'm telling you, no one outside of Reds fans think Molina or Carp did anything wrong. Did you guys hear Mike and Mike after it happened?

I understand that carp is our best pitcher and you guys would like to see him miss a start but "jawing" someone is just not that kind of offense. now if he had brought a bat out and tapped Dusty on the leg 2 times...

You are not a Reds fan from what I can tell so that would mean you don't think Carp did anything wrong

My response


I can agree that Molina was provoked and didn't do anything very far out of line. People would say he should have just ignored it and went on but no professional athlete or any of us would have no reaction to that. But to think Carpenter didnt do anything wrong is just ludicrous, sorry.

Your response


When did I say he did nothing wrong? I said he shouldn't be suspended. He should have been fined as he was. However, the guy that started all this Phillips, should have been suspended for the second tap. Not when he spewed the crap he did. Not when he tapped Molina the first time, but the second tap was tooo much.

So to answer your question you said he did nothing wrong in the above post you made.

[markymark69]

Simple, everyone on the Cards boards agrees totally with me, not one person disagrees. I wanted to see what the Reds fans thought, as I said before there I was surprised to see the people that were level headed and thought Cueto was lucky to loose only 1 start and Phillips...

Good or Bad publicity is still publicity.

The only thing that you're missing in this and that you haven't admitted and I'm sure won't admit is that the Cueto reaction does not occur if Carpenter does not chirp to re-ignite the brawl.

As a result Cueto gets seven games for doing something he wouldn't have done had he not been put in the situation that was caused by actions of Carpenter. Again, there is something not right about that.

[Illybey]

You are not a Reds fan from what I can tell so that would mean you don't think Carp did anything wrong

My response



Your response



So to answer your question you said he did nothing wrong in the above post you made.

I said "It wasn't that kind of offense" meaning that Carp did enough to get fined but NOT enough to get suspended. I say that in both posts?

OIC you are zoning in on the word anything. Anything in this instance means anything a good team mate should do, stick up for you boys. That doesn't mean that he didn't do anything to get in trouble from MLB. Unreal!

[10xWSChamps]

Cueto was the only one that really took it to another level physically. There are so many variables that went into the benches clearing and tempers being raised (although the genesis of all this is Phillips) that you can't suspend everyone that plays a part in it.

It was also clear that there were a few punches in the middle of the group and near the back (by the netting). But with the Reds and Cardinals wearing such similar colors it was nearly impossible to tell who threw a punch even though I used the DVR to move frame by frame you till couldn't tell.

There could have been more fines/suspensions handed out but at what point do you stop? If you suspend everyone who was talking trash or had a bad temper down there then the Cardinals and Reds might as well forfeit the next 7 games.

They obviously decided to draw the line at the violence that occurred and the only guy that could be really singled out was Cueto.

I am curious as to why Russ Springer got fined, has anyone heard what he did/said? I didn't hear anything about him in the day after it happened.

[jules2]

.
I am curious as to why Russ Springer got fined, has anyone heard what he did/said? I didn't hear anything about him in the day after it happened.

Since he was on the DL and joined in the fun = automatic fine

[redlegs2370]

Racist MLB the only player who gets games suspended is Cueto. Ozzie Guillen is right there is a double standard for Latin American ball players.

[Illybey]

The only thing that you're missing in this and that you haven't admitted and I'm sure won't admit is that the Cueto reaction does not occur if Carpenter does not chirp to re-ignite the brawl.

As a result Cueto gets seven games for doing something he wouldn't have done had he not been put in the situation that was caused by actions of Carpenter. Again, there is something not right about that.

Carp was taking up for his coach because Dusty was Jawing him. I have said all along that Jawing is not the suspension trigger, the first actions (tapping) and the kicking are.

[Illybey]

Racist MLB the only player who gets games suspended is Cueto. Ozzie Guillen is right there is a double standard for Latin American ball players.

There sure is, Molina would agree!

HA this is the WORST POST I HAVE SEEN HERE. Throwing in the race card!

[redlegs2370]

Carp was taking up for his coach because Dusty was Jawing him. I have said all along that Jawing is not the suspension trigger, the first actions (tapping) and the kicking are.

Making a racial comment doesn't constitute jawing.

[jules2]

Carp was taking up for his coach because Dusty was Jawing him. I have said all along that Jawing is not the suspension trigger, the first actions (tapping) and the kicking are.

Has it been "definitely" established what Carp said? I've heard "f - you" to Dusty

[Hey Meat]

Never said that. BUT it makes no sense for you to want carp to be suspended for "cussing" at baker and not for phillips to be suspended for cussing out a whole team and town in public?

Please return to your Cardinal's message board.

[Griffey012]

I said "It wasn't that kind of offense" meaning that Carp did enough to get fined but NOT enough to get suspended. I say that in both posts?

OIC you are zoning in on the word anything. Anything in this instance means anything a good team mate should do, stick up for you boys. That doesn't mean that he didn't do anything to get in trouble from MLB. Unreal!

Well that was never stated in the posts I read and quoted. Plus I am still confused. So from the line I bolded stating "Guys I'm telling you, no one outside of Reds fans think Molina or Carp did anything wrong." Actually means, "Guys I'm telling you, no one outside of Reds fans think Molina or Carp didn't do anything a good teammate should do"? Is that the correct interpretation?

[redlegs2370]

There sure is, Molina would agree!

HA this is the WORST POST I HAVE SEEN HERE. Throwing in the race card!

I have the right to my opinion, people want to deny racism but it exist and it is the worst in the MLB. The NBA and NFL are much better at race relations and treating everyone fair.

[markymark69]

Carp was taking up for his coach because Dusty was Jawing him. I have said all along that Jawing is not the suspension trigger, the first actions (tapping) and the kicking are.

Again you miss the point. The one action of Cueto does not happen if the other action of Carpenter doesn't take place. I like how you continue to avoid my point.

[redlegs2370]

Homolina? lol

anyways yadier told phillips not to touch him when he came up to bat. what did phillips do? touched him twice. i dont forsee phillips staying in that organization long knowing how jocketty likes to run a team. that kind of stuff doesnt fly in a professional organization...

But making racial slurs and taking steroids does fly in a professional organization?

[Illybey]

Making a racial comment doesn't constitute jawing.

I have heard no one say Carp made a racial slur? :) Come on, that would have been up front if it were true, you are making stuff up now :)

[Razzle]

Again you miss the point. The one action of Cueto does not happen if the other action of Carpenter doesn't take place. I like how you continue to avoid my point.

You could continue to trace this backwards as well. Carpenter isn't out there to say anything stupid if Molina and Phillips don't jaw at one another, which doesn't happen if Phillips doesn't say anything to the media, which doesn't happen if there weren't previous things said, etc, etc.

[Illybey]

Well that was never stated in the posts I read and quoted. Plus I am still confused. So from the line I bolded stating "Guys I'm telling you, no one outside of Reds fans think Molina or Carp did anything wrong." Actually means, "Guys I'm telling you, no one outside of Reds fans think Molina or Carp didn't do anything a good teammate should do"? Is that the correct interpretation?

Thats what they said on Mike and Mike

[markymark69]

You could continue to trace this backwards as well. Carpenter isn't out there to say anything stupid if Molina and Phillips don't jaw at one another, which doesn't happen if Phillips doesn't say anything to the media, which doesn't happen if there weren't previous things said, etc, etc.

Very true. But it doesn't disprove my point.

[ThornWithin81]

Racist MLB the only player who gets games suspended is Cueto. Ozzie Guillen is right there is a double standard for Latin American ball players.

This is just ridiculous. If Bronson Arroyo was the guy pinned against the backstop kicking people, he'd have a 7 game suspension in his lap right now.

Absolutely ridiculous sentiment.

[Illybey]

This is just ridiculous. If Bronson Arroyo was the guy pinned against the backstop kicking people, he'd have a 7 game suspension in his lap right now.

Absolutely ridiculous sentiment.

I completely agree and I hate this argument even trying to be made.

[Stelmacki]

I have heard no one say Carp made a racial slur? :) Come on, that would have been up front if it were true, you are making stuff up now :)

There seem to be some people who are HOPING that Carpenter used a racial slur.

[redlegs2370]

This is just ridiculous. If Bronson Arroyo was the guy pinned against the backstop kicking people, he'd have a 7 game suspension in his lap right now.

Absolutely ridiculous sentiment.

We can agree to disagree. But Johnny got the shaft. He was pinned against the wall how else can a guy defend himself. Did they bother to let Johnny explain why he was kicking? Did he get a chance for due process?

[Illybey]

We can agree to disagree. But Johnny got the shaft. He was pinned against the wall how else can a guy defend himself. Did they bother to let Johnny explain why he was kicking? Did he get a chance for due process?

I had a very clever statement about this post but decided not to post it on the grounds of this ignorant poster. It felt like I was punching a simpleton or something.

[redlegs2370]

I completely agree and I hate this argument even trying to be made.

Why because it just might be true and we have a much deeper problem than two teams fighting.

Your going to tell me that they hate and anger towards Brandon Phillips was because he said they b**** and whine and complain and they are little b****** would make Cardinal players rush from the dugout and Carpenter verbally go off on Dusty Baker? Really open your eyes if Arroyo makes the statement and Jerry Narron is the manager the Cardinals don't do anything.

[Stelmacki]

I also see a lot of people saying Carpenter is 100% to blame.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100810&content_id=13276098&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Let's break down the video then:

(FS Ohio)
0:06 Phillips goes to tap Molina on the shins (I'll take the reds fans words that this is a ritual he does) Molina kicks his bat away. Clear sign of aggressiveness, but if Phillips does this every game, why were there no other incidents like this in the other games these teams have played? Phillips taps his shins again as he walks away to take practice swings. Yadi says something (only 3 people in the world know what it was). Now, I'll give Phillips credit because he does try to ignore him, but Yadi steps up to meet him and they both start yelling at each other.

0:20 Benches clear.

0:24 Rolen grabs Molina and does what I would say is a good job of mediating and calming him down.

0:37 Baker trying to keep his players back

0:55 - 1:13 LaRussa and Baker seem to be the focus and are yelling back and forth at each other.

1:16 Umpires separate LaRussa and Baker and as Baker is being backed off Carpenter says something that makes both Baker and the Umpire turn their attention to him. Not sure what it was, some Reds fans are hoping that Carpenter used a racial slur, Baker first response is clearly "Hey, **** You!". Even now this has just been a war of words. Everyone on the field is yelling at each other, so I doubt more words pushed this over the edge.

1:21 Rolen grabs Carpenter. No one is charging towards the backstop UNTIL this happens. I'm not saying Rolen is at fault, but this really is where things escalate. (NOTE: Cueto runs from the complete opposite side of the scrum to where he is pinned against the back stop by his OWN TEAM. Also, notice how Carpenter is pinned against the backstop by his team, yet, NO kicks)

1:30 - 1:39 Cueto starts kicking. A lot of people say it is out of panic, but his kicks are clearly targeted at LaRue. Maybe he should have asked the people pinning him to the backstop (aka his teammates) to let him out?

2:22 Video switches over from FS Ohio to FS Midwest

[redlegs2370]

I had a very clever statement about this post but decided not to post it on the grounds of this ignorant poster. It felt like I was punching a simpleton or something.

Ignorant poster? I have been on this forum long before you posted here and will be here long after. To accuse me of being ignorant just shows how shallow you are. You don't know me at all, much less how can you say I'm ignorant. You may disagree with my opinions and that is ok with me but that doesn't mean I'm ignorant.

[Griffey012]

Thats what they said on Mike and Mike

I have zero beef with what Molina did, I would have done the same. Just not a fan of Carpenter's chirping as things were cooling down and it was basically LaRussa vs. Baker.

[Illybey]

Ignorant poster? I have been on this forum long before you posted here and will be here long after. To accuse me of being ignorant just shows how shallow you are. You don't know me at all, much less how can you say I'm ignorant. You may disagree with my opinions and that is ok with me but that doesn't mean I'm ignorant.

Your post was ignorant and lazy, come up with some more substantial than the race card please. I have no tolerance or that, it is the easy way out, unproven in the case, so I say a total fabricated lie.

[redlegs2370]

There seem to be some people who are HOPING that Carpenter used a racial slur.

Dusty Baker said today that he couldn't believe that Carpenter wasn't given a harsher penalty and that the umpire evidentially didn't report everything that Carpernter said. So your going to tell me that calling him a CS, MF, or SOB would result in Dusty thinking he should be given a harsher punishment? I would say either he used a racial slur or he threatened his life. I'll to to my grave believing this unless someone can give me an exact transcript of what was said. You see MLB wouldn't want that to come out because it would be an issue that would hurt the image of the sport so they are going to hide it.

[Illybey]

I have zero beef with what Molina did, I would have done the same. Just not a fan of Carpenter's chirping as things were cooling down and it was basically LaRussa vs. Baker.

His timing could have been better but, I still don't think it should call for any suspention. Still was only words and NOT RACIAL !

[redlegs2370]

Your post was ignorant and lazy, come up with some more substantial than the race card please. I have no tolerance or that, it is the easy way out, unproven in the case, so I say a total fabricated lie.

No you called me an ignorant poster. I have stated in previous posts why I felt that way. Prove to me what Carpenter said then. Why is the media not talking or printing that? They sure had no problem printing Brandon Phillips comments.

[Illybey]

No you called me an ignorant poster. I have stated in previous posts why I felt that way. Prove to me what Carpenter said then. Why is the media not talking or printing that? They sure had no problem printing Brandon Phillips comments.

Because Brandon Phillips called for the interview and was by himself and could CLEARLY be heard. You prove he said any racial slur because I say he didn't.

[CardsFanBob]

IMO, what was handed down was pretty solid. Cueto, IMO, probably deserved another three games. Losing one start isn't enough for something that would constitute assault on any street in America.

And this whole concept that he was trapped is a farce. As Stelmacki points out above, Cueto put himself in that situation. He surged behind the pile when Carp and Rolen were dancing. Even when get got the screen, he had ample time to leave. Finally, his fellow Reds closed around him, and he's pressed against the screen. There was no reason to start kicking. At most, everyone at that point was just "tying each other up," much like what occurs when things get chippy in hockey games. Cueto is the one who elevated it.

IMO, this whole "mini-war" will die down the rest of the year, considering they only have three games remaining. But next year, it will pick right back up.

[redlegs2370]

Because Brandon Phillips called for the interview and was by himself and could CLEARLY be heard. You prove he said any racial slur because I say he didn't.

I can't prove it because Carpenter doesn't have the guts to say publicly what he said. If it comes out and I hear Dusty say it was just cussing then I'll admit my assumptions were wrong. I have no problem admitting I was wrong.

[HarlieChustle]

Agree most of the punishment was fair, but would have liked to see KungFu Cueto be out as long as LaRue is.

Looks like Cincy won this round.

[Stelmacki]

Dusty Baker said today that he couldn't believe that Carpenter wasn't given a harsher penalty and that the umpire evidentially didn't report everything that Carpernter said. So your going to tell me that calling him a CS, MF, or SOB would result in Dusty thinking he should be given a harsher punishment? I would say either he used a racial slur or he threatened his life. I'll to to my grave believing this unless someone can give me an exact transcript of what was said. You see MLB wouldn't want that to come out because it would be an issue that would hurt the image of the sport so they are going to hide it.

Why is Baker the only one who reported it? The ump was right there, as well as 10-15 other players. They wouldn't have to reveal what Carpenter said and suspend him. The charging didn't start until Rolen grabbed Carpenter. If it was so horrible, I think Baker's reaction would have been more intense. Look at him, he's not someone who would be intimidated to go after Carpenter if he used a racial slur. Baker and LaRussa were suspended for failing to control their teams. Cueto for using kicking.

[ThornWithin81]

We can agree to disagree. But Johnny got the shaft. He was pinned against the wall how else can a guy defend himself. Did they bother to let Johnny explain why he was kicking? Did he get a chance for due process?

No, I'm not going to agree to disagree. Blaming Cueto's suspension on his race is not intelligent. Agreeing to disagree implies two people who recognize the validity of both sentiments and accept that their disagreement is okay.

My sentiment (That Cueto's suspension is not racially charged) is valid. Yours is not.

:thumbdown

[CardsFanBob]

If Carpenter used a racial slur, I guarantee you that it would be national news already. It's 2010; that stuff isn't tolerated any longer.

And while Carp is a firey competitor, and can be a loose cannon, he is a very good family man. He lives in St. Louis, is very charitable, and has never had an ill report made against him. No way he's dropping any racial remarks.

Now, from what I understand, he mf'ed Dusty. And Rolen didn't take kindly to that. That's when Scott ran after Chris. They were just going to do some jawing, until everything combusted; then, the two were looking out for each other.

[markymark69]

His timing could have been better but, I still don't think it should call for any suspention. Still was only words and NOT RACIAL !

What Phillips said was only words, but yet you are saying that's it okay to get all hot and bothered when it suits your purposes (Molina standing up for his team), but not when someone else presents possible evidence that puts your precious, untouchable players in a bad light.

Just be consistent. Obviously Carpenter said something inappropriate - to say otherwise is being out of touch with reality.

[CardsFanBob]

What Phillips said was only words, but yet you are saying that's it okay to get all hot and bothered when it suits your purposes (Molina standing up for his team), but not when someone else presents possible evidence that puts your precious, untouchable players in a bad light.

Just be consistent. Obviously Carpenter said something inappropriate - to say otherwise is being out of touch with reality.

Oh, he absolutely said something not appropriate for public air waves. I'm pretty sure there were quite a few expletives being thrown around on the field.

[Illybey]

What Phillips said was only words, but yet you are saying that's it okay to get all hot and bothered when it suits your purposes (Molina standing up for his team), but not when someone else presents possible evidence that puts your precious, untouchable players in a bad light.

Just be consistent. Obviously Carpenter said something inappropriate - to say otherwise is being out of touch with reality.

So you are going with the race card too? Well I know where to file you then.

[markymark69]

IMO, what was handed down was pretty solid. Cueto, IMO, probably deserved another three games. Losing one start isn't enough for something that would constitute assault on any street in America.

And yet Larue was hurt so bad he was able to warm up pitchers later in the game.

[redlegs2370]

IMO, what was handed down was pretty solid. Cueto, IMO, probably deserved another three games. Losing one start isn't enough for something that would constitute assault on any street in America.

And this whole concept that he was trapped is a farce. As Stelmacki points out above, Cueto put himself in that situation. He surged behind the pile when Carp and Rolen were dancing. Even when get got the screen, he had ample time to leave. Finally, his fellow Reds closed around him, and he's pressed against the screen. There was no reason to start kicking. At most, everyone at that point was just "tying each other up," much like what occurs when things get chippy in hockey games. Cueto is the one who elevated it.

IMO, this whole "mini-war" will die down the rest of the year, considering they only have three games remaining. But next year, it will pick right back up.
You Cardinal Fans are so delusional. How did Cueto elevate things? Molina and Carpenter are obviously the ones that had such a strong feeling of hate. To be honest Brandon Phillips was right, the players, coaches, and fans. You guys are far worse than the Cubs fans. Instead of posting on a Cardinals site about how your in first place you want to come to a Reds site and trash our players. Cueto is a good young kid and as a Reds fan I'm proud to say he is one of ours and home grown at that.

[GIDP]

Agree most of the punishment was fair, but would have liked to see KungFu Cueto be out as long as LaRue is.

Looks like Cincy won this round.

Well since Larue isnt even out and is on the active roster I guess Cueto shouldnt even get suspended.

[CardsFanBob]

You Cardinal Fans are so delusional. How did Cueto elevate things? Molina and Carpenter are obviously the ones that had such a strong feeling of hate. To be honest Brandon Phillips was right, the players, coaches, and fans. You guys are far worse than the Cubs fans. Instead of posting on a Cardinals site about how your in first place you want to come to a Reds site and trash our players. Cueto is a good young kid and as a Reds fan I'm proud to say he is one of ours and home grown at that.


Pretty easy answer. He elevated things by kicking people. How is that difficult to understand?

And I'm hardly delusional. Why am I here? Because the board I visit has become bombarded by trolls from this site. Turn about is fair play. And I've hardly been disrespectful here, unlike the trolls at my board that feel the need to post crap thread after crap thread.

[bshall2105]

And yet Larue was hurt so bad he was able to warm up pitchers later in the game.

He wasn't hurt. He could be playing right now, but the Cardinals find he's more of an asset trying to get Cueto a longer suspension than actually playing.

[Stelmacki]

What Phillips said was only words, but yet you are saying that's it okay to get all hot and bothered when it suits your purposes (Molina standing up for his team), but not when someone else presents possible evidence that puts your precious, untouchable players in a bad light.

Just be consistent. Obviously Carpenter said something inappropriate - to say otherwise is being out of touch with reality.

I don't think there's any doubt that the words being exchanged, by BOTH sides were inappropriate. No fanbase can claim innocence in this because BOTH benches cleared. I think Phillips went about it the wrong way, regardless of whether he is right or not. I'm a Cardinals fan, I've seen my team complain about others. Personally, I don't care if someone untucks their jersey. But please do not act like they are the only ones. Monday night was the second time this year Reds batters complained about Carpenter's undershirt distracting them at the plate. It doesn't matter. If it's true, then it's a legitimate complaint, if not, call them out like this:

I'll use the complaint against Arroyo as an example.

"Hey, you think that's what we're doing? How about you come out and inspect his hat after every pitch? We'll still beat you."

This is why I am a fan of Frank Thomas and Albert Pujols. They have both called out the people questioning and said test them before every game if they want.

[HarlieChustle]

Well since Larue isnt even out and is on the active roster I guess Cueto shouldnt even get suspended.

Check your facts then comment.

[HarlieChustle]

He wasn't hurt. He could be playing right now, but the Cardinals find he's more of an asset trying to get Cueto a longer suspension than actually playing.

And where are you citing this from?

[markymark69]

So you are going with the race card too? Well I know where to file you then.

No I'm not. I'm saying that it's obvious that Carpenter said something inappropriate. It may have been racial, it may not have been. My point is, it doesn't mean the poster is wrong.

You are trying to make it like Carpenter is some angel incapable of doing anything wrong.

I don't play the race card, but I'm open minded. It's as much a possibility as is it not. I hope it's not. You are asking the poster to provide proof, when you have no proof that Carpenter didn't say something racial.

I don't know Chris Carpenter. But he said something that Dusty didn't like and Scott Rolen didn't like it either.

[bshall2105]

And where are you citing this from?

He acted normal. He caught in the bullpen. You don't get a concussion from being soiked.

[GIDP]

Check your facts then comment.

Please show me where Jason Larue is on any type of disabled list.

[757690]

In all other sports, the players in such fights that get the biggest suspensions are not the most violent ones, but those that instigate the fight and those the elevate the fight.

Cueto had to get something, you can't let players kick each other like he did, for what ever reason he had. It makes no difference the situation, you can't start wildly kicking people.

But the fact that MLB ignored the clear facts that Molina started it (include Phillips in there if you have to, but really it was all Molina) and that Carpenter elevated it after it had calmed down, proves that they have no idea how to deal with these things.

This action will only make it more likely that fights will happen, in fact, it encourages players to start fights, and elevate them until a player from the other team gets hurt.

These suspensions and fines are a joke, but I expected nothing less from good old brainless, gutless Bud.

And please drop the whole race card thing. It doesn't matter if Carpenter used it or not. He said something that he knew would get guys fighting again. That is what is most important. He wanted to fight to continue and made sure that it did. End of story.

[HarlieChustle]

He acted normal. He caught in the bullpen. You don't get a concussion from being soiked.

He acted "normal". thats your source? You should be a doctor, you could give house calls via web cam.

[GIDP]

Jason Larue hasnt even started a game for 2+ weeks. I guess he's been day to day for a while.

[markymark69]

And where are you citing this from?

From a respected person in Cincinnati who was at the game.

http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html

[bshall2105]

He acted "normal". thats your source? You should be a doctor, you could give house calls via web cam.

Either way if you can catch people down in the bullpen you can catch in a game. I'd doubt he was dropping balls and falling over when he got into his crouch.

[HarlieChustle]

Jason Larue hasnt even started a game for 2+ weeks. I guess he's been day to day for a while.

So all players who ride pine are considered Day-To-Day? Sorry I dont understand your logic.

[cincysportsfan]

Red's fan here, and I believe the suspension was fair. Cueto was the only one who used aggressive force with the kicking in spikes. Don't say he was thrown against the wall as an excuse. He could have stayed away from the fight on the side, since he was the starting pitcher, to avoid injury. Then he could have pushed people aside most likely.
Now they move on. No sense in getting on here and arguing about why Carpenter, Molina, and Phillips didn't get suspended. They mainly used words to incite the fight.
Don't see why we should suspend Carpenter for the two words that he said. That happens across all highschools.

[HarlieChustle]

Either way if you can catch people down in the bullpen you can catch in a game. I'd doubt he was dropping balls and falling over when he got into his crouch.

He wasnt catching in the bullpen. Try again.

[bshall2105]

He wasnt catching in the bullpen. Try again.

HE WAS CATCHING! It makes no difference where the catching was taking place.

[GIDP]

So all players who ride pine are considered Day-To-Day? Sorry I dont understand your logic.

You are trying to say cueto should be suspended until LaRue can play. Considering he doesnt play already and isnt even on the DL, how should I take your comments that Cueto should be out until Larue can return. What exactly is he returning from besides the bench?

[757690]

He wasnt catching in the bullpen. Try again.

Yes he was, and there are plenty of reports of it.

This was just posted a few post above, but there are plenty more from reporters who were at the game.

LaRue Catching in the Pen later in the Game (http://www.redszone.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2205563)


*And yea, Jason LaRue looked so dazed and confused when Carpenter kissed him on Kiss-Cam Tuesday night. And somehow was able to warm-up pitchers later in the game.

[CardsFanBob]

Who cares if he was catching or not, suffered a concussion or not. He was KICKED in the face. That garners a suspension.

[HarlieChustle]

HE WAS CATCHING! It makes no difference where the catching was taking place.

Show me any type of evidence and Ill apologize but until then.... your comments = FAIL!

[757690]

Show me any type of evidence and Ill apologize but until then.... your comments = FAIL!

I just did. Look above!!!!!!

[Stelmacki]

They interviewed LaRue before the game on Wednesday. He had a couple stitches, maybe 7-10, but he wasn't seriously injured. I don't know what they said about whether he had a concussion or not.

[GIDP]

This is getting flat out pathetic. Have fun Redszone I'm done posting in the Sun Deck.

[HarlieChustle]

I just did. Look above!!!!!!

nice try, but theres nothing there... on any of the links.

second attempt = FAIL. would you like to try for three in a row?

[bshall2105]

nice try, but theres nothing there... on any of the links.

second attempt = FAIL. would you like to try for three in a row?

He pulled a quote from the article itself.

[757690]

Who cares if he was catching or not, suffered a concussion or not. He was KICKED in the face. That garners a suspension.

I agree with this. But you also have to admonish the Cardinals for basically lying about how severe the injury was just to be able to play the victim card, and to trump up Cueto's penalty.


Cueto was wrong for kicking. The Cardinals were worse for lying about it.

[HarlieChustle]

You are trying to say cueto should be suspended until LaRue can play. Considering he doesnt play already and isnt even on the DL, how should I take your comments that Cueto should be out until Larue can return. What exactly is he returning from besides the bench?

When he is cleared to play by MLB, simple enough.

[HarlieChustle]

He pulled a quote from the article itself.

Please dont pull quotes from articles, your butt, etc... Just send the link from any reputable news source.

[757690]

nice try, but theres nothing there... on any of the links.

second attempt = FAIL. would you like to try for three in a row?

How in the world does this not constitute proof that he was catching?


*And yea, Jason LaRue looked so dazed and confused when Carpenter kissed him on Kiss-Cam Tuesday night. And somehow was able to warm-up pitchers later in the game.

Warming up pitchers means catching, unless he was giving them some sorta of erotic massage, which, to be honest, I can't rule out, given that it's the Cardinals.

[bshall2105]

Please dont pull quotes from articles, your butt, etc... Just send the link from any reputable news source.

Thre is a link that he posted. Under the link there is a quote from the article that you can click on. Just click, scroll, and it's right there.

[Stelmacki]

But you also have to admonish the Cardinals for basically lying about how severe the injury was just to be able to play the victim card

I'd agree with this, but is this not similar to Baker saying Carpenter should have been suspended longer for what he said? How do we know who is lying or not? Cardinals fans say Baker is lying, Reds fans say LaRussa is.

[markymark69]

Who cares if he was catching or not, suffered a concussion or not. He was KICKED in the face. That garners a suspension.

Nobody is saying that he shouldn't be - but let's not make it worse than it was - assault? That's why I responded the way I did.

If he was assualted he probably would have been in the hospital and he was not. Just because Tony LaRussa says it's a concussion doesn't make it so. I know Abner Doubleday consulted him when he devised the rules of the game, but he is chief whiner and his comments need to be taken with a grain of salt.

[757690]

Please dont pull quotes from articles, your butt, etc... Just send the link from any reputable news source.

Lance McAlister is just as much of a real journalist as Rick Hummel was, or Bernie Miklasz is. Just because it was online doesn't make it any less credible.

[HarlieChustle]

Thre is a link that he posted. Under the link there is a quote from the article that you can click on. Just click, scroll, and it's right there.

I did, sorry, nothing. Can you repost it?

[markymark69]

I did, sorry, nothing. Can you repost it?

You have to scroll down a little bit, it's under the heading of hosed.

http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html

[CardsFanBob]

Nobody is saying that he shouldn't be - but let's not make it worse than it was - assault? That's why I responded the way I did.

If he was assualted he probably would have been in the hospital and he was not. Just because Tony LaRussa says it's a concussion doesn't make it so. I know Abner Doubleday consulted him when he devised the rules of the game, but he is chief whiner and his comments need to be taken with a grain of salt.


Do you know the definition of assault in a court of law? Kicking someone is most certainly a case. In fact, attacking someone with cleeted feet; it could be argued a weapon.

I'm not saying the dude should go to jail. But he most definitely handled himself poorly. He deserves his one start suspension, and IMO, deserves to miss one more.

[757690]

I'd agree with this, but is this not similar to Baker saying Carpenter should have been suspended longer for what he said? How do we know who is lying or not? Cardinals fans say Baker is lying, Reds fans say LaRussa is.

I have not seen Baker's comments. If you have a link or could at least paraphrase them I would appreciate it.

Thanks

I can't comment on what Baker said, but we have video proof that LaRussa and the Cardinals were lying about LaRue.

[CardsFanBob]

By the way, I do enjoy the contempt Reds fans have for Tony.

I enjoy it even more knowing that you would dump Dusty's butt for Tony every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[markymark69]

Do you know the definition of assault in a court of law? Kicking someone is most certainly a case. In fact, attacking someone with cleeted feet; it could be argued a weapon.

I'm not saying the dude should go to jail. But he most definitely handled himself poorly. He deserves his one start suspension, and IMO, deserves to miss one more.

Again, not saying he shouldn't be suspended, not saying that he doesn't deserve it, I just don't think LaRue is hurt as bad as is being made out.

[HarlieChustle]

You have to scroll down a little bit, it's under the heading of hosed.

http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html

Please see my previous post where I say repituble news source.. I can point you to my blog if you want to count those things as facts.

is there any pictures, video.. any proof?

[markymark69]

Please see my previous post where I say repituble news source.. I can point you to my blog if you want to count those things as facts.

is there any pictures, video.. any proof?

Guy works for a radio station in Cincinnati. It's reputable.

[Stelmacki]

I have not seen Baker's comments. If you have a link or could at least paraphrase them I would appreciate it.

Thanks

I can't comment on what Baker said, but we have video proof that LaRussa and the Cardinals were lying about LaRue.

I'm looking for a direct quote, do you have a link that shows LaRue doesn't have a concussion?

[757690]

By the way, I do enjoy the contempt Reds fans have for Tony.

I enjoy it even more knowing that you would dump Dusty's butt for Tony every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Actually, a poll was put up on this board recently when it was revealed that LaRussa might be available next season.

Overwhelmingly, this board voted no to replacing him Baker. Something like 95% to 5%.

I am definitely in the 95%. I don't like Baker, but at least he has integrity. And I have many Cardinal fans who can't wait for the day that LaRussa is not the Cards manager. They don't care that he wins. He's too much of an embarrassment.

[CardsFanBob]

Again, not saying he shouldn't be suspended, not saying that he doesn't deserve it, I just don't think LaRue is hurt as bad as is being made out.

Eh... Who knows. He might have a very mild concussion. I played college football. Lord knows I got my noggin' rung a few times. I still played (nowadays that would be frowned upon). I think they're probably precautious with him right now... They did call up a catcher in the meantime, while putting Suppan on the DL.

[757690]

Guy works for a radio station in Cincinnati. It's reputable.

Yep, he has had full press credentials to Reds games for years. He's a real journalist. This story of his happened to be online, just like Miklisz's is online as well as in the paper.

[HarlieChustle]

Guy works for a radio station in Cincinnati. It's reputable.

yeah not biased at all....

Why hasnt mlb or any other media outlet picked this up? Seems like quite a big deal if youre right.

[CardsFanBob]

Actually, a poll was put up on this board recently when it was revealed that LaRussa might be available next season.

Overwhelmingly, this board voted no to replacing him Baker. Something like 95% to 5%.

I am definitely in the 95%. I don't like Baker, but at least he has integrity. And I have many Cardinal fans who can't wait for the day that LaRussa is not the Cards manager. They don't care that he wins. He's too much of an embarrassment.

:lol:


That's comical. The overwhelming majority of Cardinals fans adore Tony. In fact, in several recent polls, people voted Tony as their favorite Cards manager over the loved Whitey Herzog and Red Schoendists. The few holdovers who don't like Tony tend to be the fanatical fans, who long for the old days of baseball. They live in the past.

And the only reason to pick Dusty over Tony is pure emotion. Tony will go down as one of the greatest managers in baseball history. He's revolutionized parts of the game. Does he do things that drive me batty from time to time? Sure. But the dude wins. And his teams play damn hard. They never quit on him, unlike some of Dusty's teams (Chicago, I'm looking at you, in particular). And he gets the absolute most out of fringe players.

The 15 years Tony has been in charge of my beloved team have been a grand 15 years.

[757690]

I'm looking for a direct quote, do you have a link that shows LaRue doesn't have a concussion?

The video of LaRue on the kiss cam, during the game, which clearly shows him without any scars, and laughing and playing around. If he had a concussion, he would either be in the trainers room all game, or he would be in the hospital.

Plus there are many reports from journalists at the game that say he was warming up pitchers later in the game. Again, no one with a concussion would be doing anything physical.

Concerning the Baker comments, you can just give the gist of what he said. I trust you. :-)

[Rijo's Ghost]

I know he's our guy and everything, but how in the world is Cueto being defended? As soon as the pushing started he ran to Carpenter. Carpenter was then pushed past him and into the net with Gomes running in. Cueto was then "pinned in" by his own team and Carpenters back. Cueto then kicked Carpenter in the back and LaRue flipped. At that time Gomes was between the two. LaRue tries to duck under Gomes and get to Cueto when he is kicked in the face. Guys, it's all there on video.

At the time they went into the net Cueto was surrounded by Reds.

http://a.imagehost.org/0396/sup.jpg

And again, Cueto was the only player that resorted to a violent action beyond pushing. Cueto being the only player to get suspended is the least surprising thing ever.

[HarlieChustle]

Yep, he has had full press credentials to Reds games for years. He's a real journalist. This story of his happened to be online, just like Miklisz's is online as well as in the paper.

Why hasnt mlb or any other media outlet picked this up? Seems like quite a big deal if youre right. It would be detrimental to the cardinals.. so.... why the crickets?

[HarlieChustle]

The video of LaRue on the kiss cam, during the game, which clearly shows him without any scars, and laughing and playing around. If he had a concussion, he would either be in the trainers room all game, or he would be in the hospital.

Plus there are many reports from journalists at the game that say he was warming up pitchers later in the game. Again, no one with a concussion would be doing anything physical.

Concerning the Baker comments, you can just give the gist of what he said. I trust you. :-)

Dont these journalists carry cameras?

[Rijo's Ghost]

The video of LaRue on the kiss cam, during the game, which clearly shows him without any scars, and laughing and playing around. If he had a concussion, he would either be in the trainers room all game, or he would be in the hospital.

Plus there are many reports from journalists at the game that say he was warming up pitchers later in the game. Again, no one with a concussion would be doing anything physical.

Concerning the Baker comments, you can just give the gist of what he said. I trust you. :-)

I'm sure that LaRue doesn't have a mild concussion and probably just got his bell rung, but football players get concussions all the time and don't even realize it.

[HarlieChustle]

:lol:


That's comical. The overwhelming majority of Cardinals fans adore Tony. In fact, in several recent polls, people voted Tony as their favorite Cards manager over the loved Whitey Herzog and Red Schoendists.

over Whitey? lets not get crazy..

[Stelmacki]

The video of LaRue on the kiss cam, during the game, which clearly shows him without any scars, and laughing and playing around. If he had a concussion, he would either be in the trainers room all game, or he would be in the hospital.

Plus there are many reports from journalists at the game that say he was warming up pitchers later in the game. Again, no one with a concussion would be doing anything physical.

Concerning the Baker comments, you can just give the gist of what he said. I trust you. :-)

"I don't know what the umpire report says. Something must have been left out," Baker said. "A few statements caused the escalation."

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/08/cueto_gets_worst_punishment.html

ESPN has reported that LaRue has a concussion.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5458170

[10xWSChamps]

How was LaRue warming up catchers when he was sitting on the bench next to Carpenter? Aren't the bullpens in right and left center at the GAB like almost every other stadium?

LaRue does have some scraps on his face. They did a pre-game interview with him the next day and there's about a five inch section on his left jawline that has little cuts/scraps on it. He clearly got kicked in the face, the evidence is there you can see it plain as day on video. And although I haven't seen any proof Carpenter supposedly has welts on his back.

I don't think they're really hurt so badly that it's going to stop them from playing unless LaRue really does have a concussion (doubtful I think, I imagine it was said to help get a longer suspension for Cueto).

Arguing about how much someone was hurt by Cueto is kind of meaningless, he was quite obviously kicking people and that's the bottom line. There were some people punching but it was such a blur of white/grey/red that you couldn't tell who was doing the punching.

[HarlieChustle]

ESPN is reported that LaRue has a concussion.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5458170

sorry, Stelmacki.. apparently the local basement blog trumps ESPN.

Who knew? :confused:

[757690]

:lol:


That's comical. The overwhelming majority of Cardinals fans adore Tony. In fact, in several recent polls, people voted Tony as their favorite Cards manager over the loved Whitey Herzog and Red Schoendists. The few holdovers who don't like Tony tend to be the fanatical fans, who long for the old days of baseball. They live in the past.

And the only reason to pick Dusty over Tony is pure emotion. Tony will go down as one of the greatest managers in baseball history. He's revolutionized parts of the game. Does he do things that drive me batty from time to time? Sure. But the dude wins. And his teams play damn hard. They never quit on him, unlike some of Dusty's teams (Chicago, I'm looking at you, in particular). And he gets the absolute most out of fringe players.

The 15 years Tony has been in charge of my beloved team have been a grand 15 years.

I am glad you feel that way. Nothing wrong how you feel about him. And I believe you when you say most Cardinal fans you know love Tony.

I used to live in Cardinal country, so I have many Cardinal friends fans. All of them love that Tony made their team a winner, but are embarrassed by his antics, especially of late. Three of them actually told me that they hope the Cards don't make the Playoffs, just so that LaRussa doesn't come back.

I can only report on what I hear, since I am not in Cardinal country anymore.

BTW, Reds fans, especially this board, HATE Dusty Baker. They didn't pick him because of emotion, they picked him because they value integrity.

[bshall2105]

"I don't know what the umpire report says. Something must have been left out," Baker said. "A few statements caused the escalation."

http://marksheldon.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/08/cueto_gets_worst_punishment.html

ESPN has reported that LaRue has a concussion.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5458170

ESPN is reporting what the Cardinals tell them.

[Stelmacki]

ESPN is reporting what the Cardinals tell them.

Of course. As are the St. Louis newspapers. Just like Cincinnati papers are reporting what the Reds tell them.

[757690]

sorry, Stelmacki.. apparently the local basement blog trumps ESPN.

Who knew? :confused:

I trust local media far more than ESPN. They have a huge bias towards teams with big fan bases. Always have, and they get stories wrong all the time.

I trust the Post Dispatch or anyone on KMOX much more than I trust ESPN.

[CardsFanBob]

over Whitey? lets not get crazy..

Indeed. It was done in the Post and on several local radio stations. I love both guys, but Tony's done more longer.



I am glad you feel that way. Nothing wrong how you feel about him. And I believe you when you say most Cardinal fans you know love Tony.

I used to live in Cardinal country, so I have many Cardinal friends fans. All of them love that Tony made their team a winner, but are embarrassed by his antics, especially of late. Three of them actually told me that they hope the Cards don't make the Playoffs, just so that LaRussa doesn't come back.

I can only report on what I hear, since I am not in Cardinal country anymore.

BTW, Reds fans, especially this board, HATE Dusty Baker. They didn't pick him because of emotion, they picked him because they value integrity.

That's a huge crock. Your fanbase overwhelmingly values integrity. PLEASE. You're middle Americans, just as we are. You're no more holy, no better. Tony, for the most part, is a pretty good guy. He's uber intense, and the guy does nothing but win.

Dusty is NO worse than Tony.

[HarlieChustle]

Of course. As are the St. Louis newspapers. Just like Cincinnati papers are reporting what the Reds tell them.

good point.. why doesnt the reputable radio show journalist blogger tell ESPN LaRue was warming up pitchers? problem solved.

[bshall2105]

Of course. As are the St. Louis newspapers. Just like Cincinnati papers are reporting what the Reds tell them.

Yes, it's just a matter of what you believe. I believe Lance M.

[HarlieChustle]

I trust local media far more than ESPN. They have a huge bias towards teams with big fan bases. Always have, and they get stories wrong all the time.

I trust the Post Dispatch or anyone on KMOX much more than I trust ESPN.


Apparently ESPN reports what the local media tells them.. so why not in this case?

[Stelmacki]

OT: Wow, they were not kind to the Reds on Around the Horn just now. Plaschke was the only one who defended them.

[SuperFan]

ROFLMAO - 17 pages of *****ing and whining from something that all started because a Reds player, with fans who totally agree, complained that the Cardinals are *****es and whiners. Too damn funny!

[10xWSChamps]

And just FYI, LaRue isn't going on the DL but they've called up a catcher from AA to replace him for now.

[HarlieChustle]

And just FYI, LaRue isn't going on the DL but they've called up a catcher from AA to replace him for now.

holy crap youre right... Jeez I hope I didnt put my foot in my mouth earlier.

[Razzle]

I am glad you feel that way. Nothing wrong how you feel about him. And I believe you when you say most Cardinal fans you know love Tony.

I used to live in Cardinal country, so I have many Cardinal friends fans. All of them love that Tony made their team a winner, but are embarrassed by his antics, especially of late. Three of them actually told me that they hope the Cards don't make the Playoffs, just so that LaRussa doesn't come back.

I can only report on what I hear, since I am not in Cardinal country anymore.

BTW, Reds fans, especially this board, HATE Dusty Baker. They didn't pick him because of emotion, they picked him because they value integrity.

I'm not overly enamored with LaRussa, but I don't hate him either. He does some things well and some things not so well like most managers. For the most part, he's won because he's managed a ton of talent. I think he gets more out of lesser players and manages the bullpen pretty well generally (though that probably falls more on Duncan). Double switching Allen Craig into the game in the 9th of Tuesday's game, and thus taking out Rasmus who is probably their best fielder, was one of the typical moves he makes that I just can't understand about him. I guess I just don't believe that different managers would make much of a difference in the long haul.