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nate
08-12-2010, 03:45 PM
What better way to salve a bitter sweep than by looking at some defensive rankings!

Here's how the Reds rank in various defensive stats:


Player Pos DRS RZR OOZ UZR UZR/150
Brandon Phillips 2B 5 11 3 1 2
Joey Votto 1B 2 6 3 2 3
Scott Rolen 3B 5 4 4 4 4
Jay Bruce RF 5 5 1 4 9
Orlando Cabrera SS 9 7 13 4 7
Drew Stubbs CF 5 13 10 12 11
Jonny Gomes LF 18 15 12 16 18



DRS: Defensive runs saved, I believe this is "Dewan's*"
RZR: percentage of in-zone plays converted
OOZ: out of zone plays made
UZR: your favorite defensive stat

I took stats for all NL players with more than 300 innings and assigned rankings based on these stats. As you can see, probably without even looking here, compared to their peers, the Reds have good defense in general and excellent infield defense.

Although these are still pretty small sample sizes, I was more interested in seeing how the various defensive metrics agreed or disagreed on certain players. Also, I wanted to see how the numbers stacked up against my own personal WoTV ratings.

I thought the RZR rating for BP was interesting as he's usually pretty sure-handed. The funny thing is, former Red, Jeff Keppinger leads the pack in RZR. Chase Utley is 2nd. DRS ranks BP as 5th but it's a very coarse measure and three players are tied for first (Eckstein, Herrera and Sanchez.) Otherwise, I'd say BP is having an excellent year with the glove.

Votto, Rolen and Bruce are solid, not many surprises there.

Pleasantly surprised by O-Cab. He looks better in the numbers than by my WoTV. However, I think my WoTV score and his OOZ play numbers may be in cahoots. By that I mean, he's had several OOZ chances but not made as many as his peers. I guess to me, plays a guy "nearly makes" are more memorable than the multitude of routine plays.

Unpleasantly surprised by Stubbs. My WoTV had him better than the numbers here indicate. Still, I think he's good.

Note, there is an "ARM" stat for outfielders but I don't know much about the methodology so I didn't include it. It ranked Bruce rather low and Stubbs quite high which I found surprising.

Gomes, like Popeye, is what he is.

*Joe Pos has an excellent article (http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2010/08/11/defensive-numbers/) on this system.

bucksfan2
08-12-2010, 03:54 PM
Nate something looks wrong with Gomes numbers. He isn't a UZR 16 player. Is that -?

Stubbs to my recollection has missed at least 2 balls in the sun that I can remember.

kaldaniels
08-12-2010, 04:13 PM
Can't get the link now but si.com had great article on dewan ratings yesterday. It put down Jeter and Jr.

nate
08-12-2010, 04:47 PM
Can't get the link now but si.com had great article on dewan ratings yesterday. It put down Jeter and Jr.

The Joe Pos article linked above talks about Jeter and Jr.

It might even be the same article.

westofyou
08-12-2010, 04:50 PM
It was another one

The problems with defensive stats (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/tim_marchman/08/11/marchman.defensive.stats/)

Referenced this one

Indefensible - What Do We Really Know About Defense? (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=11476)

nate
08-12-2010, 04:50 PM
Nate something looks wrong with Gomes numbers. He isn't a UZR 16 player. Is that -?

Stubbs to my recollection has missed at least 2 balls in the sun that I can remember.

The numbers indicate how that player ranks in that specific metric relative to his peers, not what his rating is in that category.

IOW, BP is 1st in UZR amongst AL NL 2B with 300 defensive innings played.

I can't reveal if my WoTV method tracks "BitS" (Balls in the Sun)

:cool:

kaldaniels
08-12-2010, 04:53 PM
Sorry on my phone couldn't remember all that.

bucksfan2
08-12-2010, 04:55 PM
The numbers indicate how that player ranks in that specific metric relative to his peers, not what his rating is in that category.

IOW, BP is 1st in UZR amongst AL NL 2B with 300 defensive innings played.

I can't reveal if my WoTV method tracks "BitS" (Balls in the Sun)

:cool:

:thumbup: Gotcha

I just mentioned the BitS because I believe you are dinged pretty hard for those when in reality they are more of a fluke than anything.

nate
08-12-2010, 05:04 PM
:thumbup: Gotcha

I just mentioned the BitS because I believe you are dinged pretty hard for those when in reality they are more of a fluke than anything.

It depends where in your "zone" the BitS are but yes.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2010, 05:25 PM
Referenced this one

Indefensible - What Do We Really Know About Defense?

Good read -- thanks.

_Sir_Charles_
08-12-2010, 05:29 PM
The only defensive stat that matters. Web Gems. :O)

ESPN Web Gems Leaderboard:

Phillips 41
Longoria 32
Tulowitzki 28
Escobar 25
Rolen 23

Teams
Reds 123
Yankees 101
Rays 86
WSox 86
Marlins 80

buckeyenut
08-12-2010, 05:40 PM
I have been venting to anyone who will listen to me for the last two days. That game Tuesday night was the worst defensive OF game of baseball I have seen in 30 years of watching this sport. Unbelievable. Gomes is never good, but from the stands, I got a new perspective on just how bad he was that night. Error in the first (maybe got changed, but he halfassed it and flubbed an easy one). 2-3 other balls that a normal LFer gets two. Sliding into the corner looking like an idiot trying to stop a ball on a double. Then airmails the plate, ultimately helping the bases clear. Not to mention Heisey and his gaffe (I can live with that because he is normally good).

I am now of the opinion that Gomes should not play another game in the field the rest of the season. I want to see Edmonds/Heisey, Stubbs, Bruce the rest of the year. THAT is the best defensive OF in all of baseball.

And when stubbs or Bruce need a day off, I don't want to see Edmonds out there. I want him in LF only. I want Heisey moving over. I know Edmonds could, but Heisey is better defensively.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2010, 05:45 PM
I am now of the opinion that Gomes should not play another game in the field the rest of the season. I want to see Edmonds/Heisey, Stubbs, Bruce the rest of the year. THAT is the best defensive OF in all of baseball.


I agree. The Reds need to end the Gomes in LF experient soon before it's too late. Gomes looks bad on TV, but you have to watch him in person to truly get a feel for how bad he is. He's not the reason the Reds lost to the Cardinals but his defense, or lack there of certainly didn't help. He's cost the Reds quite a few runs this season with his glove. Edmonds/Heisey in LF, Stubbs in CF (with Heisey getting some starts), and Bruce in RF is our best outfield, IMO.

_Sir_Charles_
08-12-2010, 05:51 PM
Personally, I only want to see Edmonds pinch hitting. We've got enough defenders...(Nix included)...who are all currently better than Edmonds defensively. I liked the trade, not because it brought in Edmonds, but rather because it gave Chris an opportunity somewhere that he simply wasn't going to get here. The extra vet & bat off the bench was a bonus. But he's nowhere close to what he used to be defensively (or offensively), so I don't want to see many starts at all. Sort of how Janish was used for the majority of the season...rarely.

Cedric
08-12-2010, 05:52 PM
Personally, I only want to see Edmonds pinch hitting. We've got enough defenders...(Nix included)...who are all currently better than Edmonds defensively. I liked the trade, not because it brought in Edmonds, but rather because it gave Chris an opportunity somewhere that he simply wasn't going to get here. The extra vet & bat off the bench was a bonus. But he's nowhere close to what he used to be defensively (or offensively), so I don't want to see many starts at all. Sort of how Janish was used for the majority of the season...rarely.

Gomes isn't close to Edmonds at the plate or in the field. He needs to sit unless there is a LH pitcher going.

And Nix is a career .290 OBP/.700 OPS guy. He has no business starting on a pennant chasing team.

_Sir_Charles_
08-12-2010, 05:56 PM
Gomes isn't close to Edmonds at the plate or in the field. He needs to sit unless there is a LH pitcher going.

And Nix is a career .290 OBP/.700 OPS guy. He has no business starting on a pennant chasing team.

Well, I wasn't including Gomes in that group. I was referring to Heisey, Stubbs, Bruce & Nix. Concerning Nix's career numbers, I don't dispute those, but he's playing BETTER than that this season and especially lately. Edmonds is trending downwards....rapidly. And I was also counting Nix as a 4th or 5th outfielder...not a starter and certainly not a platoon partner.

nate
08-12-2010, 06:00 PM
Well, here's a question. Do these rankings jibe with your WoTV/WiP (watching in person) rankings?

westofyou
08-12-2010, 06:00 PM
Personally, I only want to see Edmonds pinch hitting. We've got enough defenders...(Nix included)...who are all currently better than Edmonds defensively. I liked the trade, not because it brought in Edmonds, but rather because it gave Chris an opportunity somewhere that he simply wasn't going to get here. The extra vet & bat off the bench was a bonus. But he's nowhere close to what he used to be defensively (or offensively), so I don't want to see many starts at all. Sort of how Janish was used for the majority of the season...rarely.

Nix better lately?

.277/.327/.460/.787

That's his last 10 games, if that's the best he can do then let someone else have a try.

_Sir_Charles_
08-12-2010, 06:18 PM
Let me be clearer. I view Nix as a pinch hitter and defensive replacement. I view Edmonds as a pinch hitter. Neither are starters. The occasional spot start to give a guy a day off is fine though.

Gomes is a pinch hitter. Prior to this series, I'd been on the fence with Gomes in terms of his defense. I know it's below average...but I hadn't seen the boneheaded gaffes that would put him in the horrendous catagory. But I also don't get to watch as many Reds games as you guys do. This series has given me visible proof of his deficiencies. Bench him and use him as a PH'er.

VR
08-12-2010, 06:18 PM
Nix has the best offensive #'s since July 20th, and I'm guessing it's not really even close. (.500/.566/.730/1.309 over 30 pa's)

I don't want him as the starter in left. But, AT A MINIMUM, he should be the starter out there vs. righties.

His defense alone has potentially saved 4-5 runs while Gomes has given up that many in the last 2 weeks.

_Sir_Charles_
08-12-2010, 06:22 PM
Nix has the best offensive #'s since July 20th, and I'm guessing it's not really even close.

I don't want him as the starter in left. But, AT A MINIMUM, he should be the starter out there vs. righties.

His defense alone has potentially saved 4-5 runs while Gomes has given up that many in the last 2 weeks.

I haven't looked at the numbers, but I'd agree to some extent. The numbers that WoY posted don't seem right for some reason...but I could easily be wrong. It just seems like he's hitting VERY well right now (and has been for the past several weeks).


(.500/.566/.730/1.309 over 30 pa's)

Ah, that seems more like it.

westofyou
08-12-2010, 06:24 PM
I haven't looked at the numbers, but I'd agree to some extent. The numbers that WoY posted don't seem right for some reason...but I could easily be wrong. It just seems like he's hitting VERY well right now (and has been for the past several weeks).

"seems" is a poor way to frame a debate (IMO)

I prefer reality as my baseline.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7176

Looks like he's a PH to me

_Sir_Charles_
08-12-2010, 06:59 PM
"seems" is a poor way to frame a debate (IMO)

I prefer reality as my baseline.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7176 (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7176)

Looks like he's a PH to me

Sorry, I'm posting from my phone and it's too slow to search stats.

And I agree....I said he's a PH'er in my book. With the occasional spot start like every other bench player.

westofyou
08-12-2010, 07:05 PM
Sorry, I'm posting from my phone and it's too slow to search stats.

And I agree....I said he's a PH'er in my book. With the occasional spot start like every other bench player.

Smart phones will be the downfall of message boards!!!

Henry Chadwick never needed a smartphone!!!

camisadelgolf
08-12-2010, 07:34 PM
And Nix is a career .290 OBP/.700 OPS guy. He has no business starting on a pennant chasing team.
Would you take a .788 OPS vs. RHP with good defense? The reason I ask is because that's what Laynce Nix has done as a Red over 437 plate appearances.

edabbs44
08-12-2010, 10:04 PM
Let me be clearer. I view Nix as a pinch hitter and defensive replacement. I view Edmonds as a pinch hitter. Neither are starters. The occasional spot start to give a guy a day off is fine though.

Gomes is a pinch hitter. Prior to this series, I'd been on the fence with Gomes in terms of his defense. I know it's below average...but I hadn't seen the boneheaded gaffes that would put him in the horrendous catagory. But I also don't get to watch as many Reds games as you guys do. This series has given me visible proof of his deficiencies. Bench him and use him as a PH'er.

I would say that this series was his defensive nadir. I've watched a good amt of games this season and can honestly say that I don't think that I have seen him like that before, especially in a concentrated sample like that.

edabbs44
08-12-2010, 10:15 PM
By the way, since July 1 Bruce's OPS is in the .515 range, give or take. Almost a month and a half, with no signs of breaking out of it. I realize that he is very good in the field, but what level of defense is needed to offset the debacle that he has become at the plate over the last 134 PAs? Is he getting too much rope from the fan base due to his reputation, his defense, or both?

VR
08-12-2010, 11:38 PM
By the way, since July 1 Bruce's OPS is in the .515 range, give or take. Almost a month and a half, with no signs of breaking out of it. I realize that he is very good in the field, but what level of defense is needed to offset the debacle that he has become at the plate over the last 134 PAs? Is he getting too much rope from the fan base due to his reputation, his defense, or both?

Most likely his age.

edabbs44
08-13-2010, 07:58 AM
Most likely his age.

Probably should have said that as well. So at what point does Bruce's offensive maladies outweigh his defensive prowess, or have they already? And is he being given the benefit of the doubt because of the reasons listed above and because he is a "good defender",
which by saying that allows us to believe that his .500 OPS is tolerable?

_Sir_Charles_
08-13-2010, 08:01 AM
Smart phones will be the downfall of message boards!!!

Henry Chadwick never needed a smartphone!!!

LOL. Yesterday was my first attempt at posting with it. It's definitely not quick on the draw enough for Redszone. :O)

TheNext44
08-13-2010, 09:07 AM
By the way, since July 1 Bruce's OPS is in the .515 range, give or take. Almost a month and a half, with no signs of breaking out of it. I realize that he is very good in the field, but what level of defense is needed to offset the debacle that he has become at the plate over the last 134 PAs? Is he getting too much rope from the fan base due to his reputation, his defense, or both?

Its only five games, but he does have an .874 OPS over the last five games. It's not much, but it could be a sign that he is breaking out of his slump. And I believe one of those hits was with men on base against a lefty. His two biggest problems of late.

nate
08-13-2010, 09:39 AM
As we see from the first page, Bruce is an above average to good defender. The rankings are his position amongst all NL RF with 300 innings so a rank of 8 or 9 would be around the middle. Looking at the other (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84609) thread, we find he's at a .322 wOBA offensively.

So we have above average to good fielding with slightly below average hitting. I guess that nets out as maybe slightly above average.

edabbs44
08-13-2010, 09:58 AM
As we see from the first page, Bruce is an above average to good defender. The rankings are his position amongst all NL RF with 300 innings so a rank of 8 or 9 would be around the middle. Looking at the other (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84609) thread, we find he's at a .322 wOBA offensively.

So we have above average to good fielding with slightly below average hitting. I guess that nets out as maybe slightly above average.

For whatever reason, he doesn't seem to be the same hitter as he was in the first 3 months. Right now, using those stats as proof of anything is potentially flawed.

edabbs44
08-13-2010, 10:12 AM
Its only five games, but he does have an .874 OPS over the last five games. It's not much, but it could be a sign that he is breaking out of his slump. And I believe one of those hits was with men on base against a lefty. His two biggest problems of late.

He had one good game. And this is kind if my point, our view of Bruce being skewed because of previous perception.

TheNext44
08-13-2010, 03:15 PM
He had one good game. And this is kind if my point, our view of Bruce being skewed because of previous perception.

Actually he's had five good games, especially if you had watched his AB's closely. He's had four walks and only three strikeouts during that stretch, including many strong AB's against some tough lefties.

and considering that he hadn't had a good game in over a month, I don't think it is looking at him with rose colored glasses or overreacting to suggest that a good game or a good five games is good news, especially when he's looked much better at the plate.

camisadelgolf
08-13-2010, 03:21 PM
I agree that Bruce has looked much better lately (ever since his last day off). The results just haven't been there.

Cedric
08-13-2010, 03:34 PM
Would you take a .788 OPS vs. RHP with good defense? The reason I ask is because that's what Laynce Nix has done as a Red over 437 plate appearances.

Actually I don't think I would over Heisey. And who wants to bet that Heisey is the main guy losing at bats because of Nix/Edmonds.

That's why a few of us don't want Nix anywhere near a Dusty Baker led team.

RichRed
08-13-2010, 03:52 PM
Actually I don't think I would over Heisey. And who wants to bet that Heisey is the main guy losing at bats because of Nix/Edmonds.

That's why a few of us don't want Nix anywhere near a Dusty Baker led team.

Guess who's sitting tonight? Hint: Not Nix and not Edmonds.