Where will AA and Hi A teams be next year

[JaxRed]

It's time for the bi-annual affilation shuffle. The Reds AAA, Low A, and Rookie League teams are extended through 2012. But the Reds AA and High A teams have not signed new agreements.

AA -

Only 11 teams are left. It's hard to believe Reds would be interested in going to Texas League, or that the 5 west coast teams wouldn't willingly fill up the 3 available Texas League slots.

Apparently Carolina feels they want to let the Reds affiliation expire so they can at least explore other teams. The Reds have done a poor job of putting a competitive product there. Could they want the Marlins back? You would think the Marlins would love their affiliation in Jacksonville, which has a new ballpark, leads the Southern League in attendance yearly, and is a 5 hour drive from Miami, and a 4 hour drive from their Minor League operations. And you would think the Jax Suns would be thrilled to have a Florida team.

But why hasn't it happened yet? Could it be that Jax would rather have Tampa's AA team? Tampa is a 3 hour drive, making them a more "local" Florida team. And if you're Tampa, Jax is much closer than Montgomery for both the home club and the Minor League Operation (Port Charlotte).

TEAM MAJOR LEAGUE AFFILIATE PDC EXPIRATION

Eastern League
Erie SeaWolves Tigers 2010
Harrisburg Senators Nationals 2010
Richmond Flying Squirrels Giants 2010

Southern League
Carolina Mudcats Reds 2010
Huntsville Stars Brewers 2010
Jacksonville Suns Marlins 2010
Montgomery Biscuits Rays 2010
West Tenn Diamond Jaxx Mariners 2010

Texas League
Arkansas Travelers Angels 2010
San Åntonio Missions Padres 2010
Tulsa Drillers Rockies 2010

This Minor League site
(http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/minor_key/discussion/affiliate_renewals/)

seems to think that Jax, Montgomery and Huntsville will stay with current clubs, that Richmond will choose between SF and Washington, Erie will stay with Tigers.

If he is right than the AA Reds will be one of:

Carolina
Harrisburg
West Tenn


High A

The Reds in their 1 year stint with Lynchburg have put a bad product on the field, and neither the Reds or Lynchburg chose each other, they simply had a shotgun marriage when the Pirates bought the Sarasota Reds. So I suspect Lynchburg will look around.

Normally you would suspect that the west coast teams would fill up all the California League slots, but there is a little more intrigue than normal. One of the new owners of the Rangers owns the Myrtle Beach team, so they will probably go there.

That means a Cal League franchise open and no West Coast team to fill it. Kansas City is the closest team and Delaware is still closer than California.

So the least desirable team could end up stuck in Bakersfield, and you can make a case that the Reds are the least desirable team. They've been bad at High A, and their Low A team stinks.

But the California League is in turmoil. They wanted to ship 2 teams to the Carolina League a year or so but they couldn't work it out. 1 team (High Desert) is for sale and the owner can't find a buyer, and Bakersfield's stadium no longer meets Minor League Baseball's standards.

California League
Bakersfield Blaze Rangers 2010
High Desert Mavericks Mariners 2010
Inland Empire 66ers Dodgers 2010
Modesto Nuts Rockies 2010
Rancho Cucamonga Quakes Angels 2010

Carolina League
Kinston Indians Indians 2010
Lynchburg Hillcats Reds 2010
Myrtle Beach Pelicans Braves 2010
Wilmington Blue Rocks Royals 2010

Florida State League
None

If you assume that all the West Coast teams except Bakersfield fill up with West Coast franchises, and that Myrtle Beach goes to Rangers, Kinston stays with Indians (longest running agreement in Carolina League), then the Braves, Royals and Reds will be fighting for Wilmington and Lynchburg. You'd have to assume a minor league owner would rather have the Braves.

So.... Reds need to take action quickly or they become the Bakersfield Blaze, playing in a stadium that does not meet minor league standards.

[joe51391]

how about dayton taking over in AA they have some of the best attendance in the minors.

[Caveat Emperor]

how about dayton taking over in AA they have some of the best attendance in the minors.

Doesn't work that way. Dayton's ownership group would have to buy a AA franchise (Eastern league, most likely) and move that franchise to Dayton while simultaneously finding some other place for their Midwestern league franchise to play.

Not likely.

[muddie]

JaxRed,

This is an excellent thread and one that you have obviously researched well. This exact topic has been on my brain for weeks now. I posted a while back that I had emailed the Lynchburg GM inquiring as to wheather or not he had any inkling as to where the affiliation would be next year. He responded by saying the Reds had already indicated they wanted to return to Lynchburg. He reponded to the Reds by saying that he would hold out and listen to other teams. On the surface this doesn't bode well for expecting the Reds to be back in Lynchburg. Last year the Lynchburg Hillcats won the Carolina League championship as a Pittsburgh Pirates affiliate. As you pointed out JaxRed, the team in Lynchburgh this year isn't very competitive. I don't think the Lynchburg brass are impressed.

I have inquired to the Mudcats GM in passing a couple of times about the same thing, what does next year look like? The last time I asked his response was critical of the attendance. He didn't directly relate it to the Reds but that was my impression, not a good team here. For the record, the Mudcats are about where they are every year in this league in attendance, the middle of the pack. The last two weeks have been a disaster as far as wins and losses are concerned. It seems the second half just started and the Mudcats are 10 games out already and in last place. I know from being here as long as I have that the owner will not sit still if he thinks he's getting a product that isn't competitive. Before the agreement between the Mudcats and the Rockies ended, there were several pieces in the local paper about the management not being happy with the Rockies committment to put a decent team here. I'm not judging the team myself, just stating what was in print here. The year before the Reds came in here, the Mudcats were in the playoffs. The Marlins and Mudcats had a successful relationship here.

Having said all this, I would really hate to see the Reds move. I'd never been much on the Reds but have kind of made it my business to learn the organization and the players as I best I could since it is their players that are here. I managed to see the Advanced A, AA, and AAA team in June alone and still try to see Lynchburg when I can in the Carolina League.

The circumstances were somewhat unique, for those that don't know, when the Reds moved here to begin with. Three teams in the league played music chairs and the Reds came here. The Marlins went to Jax and the Dodgers went to Chattanooga. I don't have a good feeling about the Reds being in either Lynchburg or here next year. Maybe I'm wrong...hope I am.

[JaxRed]

Obviously I would like the Reds to come to Jax (one of the open teams), but I can't realistically think that will come to pass. So my next best option is for the Reds to stay with Carolina. They come here 3 times a year, cool logo. etc.

I'm really worried about the High A team. They already spent 2 years in the Cal League in recent years (Mudville).

I'd really like to see the Reds become pro-active and buy that High A California franchise, and start working towards getting it into the Carolina League in some place like Columbia, SC.

[cinreds21]

JaxRed,

This is an excellent thread and one that you have obviously researched well. This exact topic has been on my brain for weeks now. I posted a while back that I had emailed the Lynchburg GM inquiring as to wheather or not he had any inkling as to where the affiliation would be next year. He responded by saying the Reds had already indicated they wanted to return to Lynchburg. He reponded to the Reds by saying that he would hold out and listen to other teams. On the surface this doesn't bode well for expecting the Reds to be back in Lynchburg. Last year the Lynchburg Hillcats won the Carolina League championship as a Pittsburgh Pirates affiliate. As you pointed out JaxRed, the team in Lynchburgh this year isn't very competitive. I don't think the Lynchburg brass are impressed.

I have inquired to the Mudcats GM in passing a couple of times about the same thing, what does next year look like? The last time I asked his response was critical of the attendance. He didn't directly relate it to the Reds but that was my impression, not a good team here. For the record, the Mudcats are about where they are every year in this league in attendance, the middle of the pack. The last two weeks have been a disaster as far as wins and losses are concerned. It seems the second half just started and the Mudcats are 10 games out already and in last place. I know from being here as long as I have that the owner will not sit still if he thinks he's getting a product that isn't competitive. Before the agreement between the Mudcats and the Rockies ended, there were several pieces in the local paper about the management not being happy with the Rockies committment to put a decent team here. I'm not judging the team myself, just stating what was in print here. The year before the Reds came in here, the Mudcats were in the playoffs. The Marlins and Mudcats had a successful relationship here.

Having said all this, I would really hate to see the Reds move. I'd never been much on the Reds but have kind of made it my business to learn the organization and the players as I best I could since it is their players that are here. I managed to see the Advanced A, AA, and AAA team in June alone and still try to see Lynchburg when I can in the Carolina League.

The circumstances were somewhat unique, for those that don't know, when the Reds moved here to begin with. Three teams in the league played music chairs and the Reds came here. The Marlins went to Jax and the Dodgers went to Chattanooga. I don't have a good feeling about the Reds being in either Lynchburg or here next year. Maybe I'm wrong...hope I am.

The Mudcats were not happy with the Rockies at all, that's why they left. There were extremely close to signing with St. Louis and had it all set but St. Louis decided to have all their higher affiliates in Tennessee (so the signed with the Smokies) so the Mudcats somewhat chose the Marlins by default. However, it turned out to be a great six year relationship until the end. Don't know exactly what happened but something did.
As far as will the Carolina Mudcats stay with the Reds, I have no idea. I have, on multiple occasions, talked to the Mudcats owner, trying to get a feel for what he was leaning towards. The only thing I could get out of him was that whoever he signs with, he wants a big league exhibition game. He used that in negotiating in 2008 with the Giants, when he wanted the Reds all along. I have a feeling that he (the owner) is disappointed with the product on the field, which may factor big time into his decision to extend their PDC.
On a side note, I'd be totally shocked if Jacksonville leaves the Marlins. Look at the prospects they have received the past two years (Sean West, Alex Sanabia, Michael Stanton, Logan Morrison, Matt Dominguez.) With that being said, the Marlins top-prospect crop might be lacking next year as they don't have many big named bats in Jupiter. They do have a arm or two but nothing to totally write home about until 2012 for Double-A.
Oh and great job by Jaxred on the lead post.

[Brutus]

Obviously I would like the Reds to come to Jax (one of the open teams), but I can't realistically think that will come to pass. So my next best option is for the Reds to stay with Carolina. They come here 3 times a year, cool logo. etc.

I'm really worried about the High A team. They already spent 2 years in the Cal League in recent years (Mudville).

I'd really like to see the Reds become pro-active and buy that High A California franchise, and start working towards getting it into the Carolina League in some place like Columbia, SC.

Jax, you follow these Player Development Contracts closely. Am I off base, or is it safe to say we're trending to where each organization's minor league teams could wind up being within a couple hundred miles of the actual franchise sometime in the next 10 years? Everytime another shuffle takes place, or at least within 1-3 cycles, it seems affiliates are creeping closer and closer to the parent club.

Instinctively, a geographical approach makes a lot of sense. It cuts down on travel costs to promote and demote players and reduces the obligated moving expenses incurred when paying for an affected player's relocation. I just wonder, when the minor league systems exploded in the 70's and 80's, why this didn't happen sooner? I'm guessing that since, at that time, most minor league teams were under truly separate ownership, that it was a case of mixing and matching. Now a lot of organizations are resorting to owning their own teams, and the ones that don't, have more say in the operations.

[mdccclxix]

Jax, you follow these Player Development Contracts closely. Am I off base, or is it safe to say we're trending to where each organization's minor league teams could wind up being within a couple hundred miles of the actual franchise sometime in the next 10 years? Everytime another shuffle takes place, or at least within 1-3 cycles, it seems affiliates are creeping closer and closer to the parent club.

Instinctively, a geographical approach makes a lot of sense. It cuts down on travel costs to promote and demote players and reduces the obligated moving expenses incurred when paying for an affected player's relocation. I just wonder, when the minor league systems exploded in the 70's and 80's, why this didn't happen sooner? I'm guessing that since, at that time, most minor league teams were under truly separate ownership, that it was a case of mixing and matching. Now a lot of organizations are resorting to owning their own teams, and the ones that don't, have more say in the operations.

People have thought that the minor league teams nearby can hurt attendance, not sure if they do, but you could argue it extends the fan interest even more.

Crazy, the Reds used to have a AAA in Seattle.

[Brutus]

People have thought that the minor league teams nearby can hurt attendance, not sure if they do, but you could argue it extends the fan interest even more.

Crazy, the Reds used to have a AAA in Seattle.

I have heard that argument, and I personally don't feel that's the case. I think a lot more people would go to games of minor league teams in the area to see the future prospects than fans staying home because of the availability of the parent club. I'm sure there are quite a few folks that would go, instead, to the Major League game (where available) or stay and watch them on TV at home... but I truly believe fan and local interest in a minor league club goes up with regional ties to the community.

If there's any truth to that, it seems to go against the current trend. As an independent owner of a minor league club, I might look at that more closely and I have to weigh whether it's worth it. But with more and more backing and involvement from parent clubs, I think that's less of an issue than it could have been 20 years ago.

[kaldaniels]

While we're on the subject, if as some mentioned, close proximity to Cincy is a plus, where would your ideal minor league teams for the Reds be located? Pretend you are starting from scratch.

[Brutus]

While we're on the subject, if as some mentioned, close proximity to Cincy is a plus, where would your ideal minor league teams for the Reds be located? Pretend you are starting from scratch.

I'd keep the existing teams in Louisville and Dayton, and look at adding teams to Richmind, IN and possibly Owensboro or Frankfort, KY.

Having a AA team across the river in Covington wouldn't be a terrible idea, either.

[mdccclxix]

I'd like to see one in Parkersburg, WV or Athens, OH. I wish there was a way to have Indy and Louisville, but I prefer Louisville because I like the city better. Bloomington is a cool town as well.

[redsmetz]

Could someone amplify a bit on what the High A and AA squads may look like next season, particular which big prospects might be expected at those levels next year.

[JaxRed]

I think there is a trend towards getting the minor league cities closer to the mothership. Easier for the east coast cities than someone like Seattle.

Fellas, I's appreciate this thread being about actual discsussion of where the Reds teams are heading rather than dream scenarios (sounds like a good idea for a thread)

[cinreds21]

Could someone amplify a bit on what the High A and AA squads may look like next season, particular which big prospects might be expected at those levels next year.

Well for Double-A you're likely looking at these guys returning:

Carroll
Webb
Boxberger
Fairel
Perez
and maybe Negron and Avery

As for guys coming up from High-A
Joseph
Soto
Day
Hotchkiss
Jeffords
Serrano (maybe)
Partch

But all of that could change due to trades or free agent signings.

[mth123]

Well for Double-A you're likely looking at these guys returning:

Carroll
Webb
Boxberger
Fairel
Perez
and maybe Negron and Avery

As for guys coming up from High-A
Joseph
Soto
Day
Hotchkiss
Jeffords
Serrano (maybe)
Partch

But all of that could change due to trades or free agent signings.


So ranking those I'd go

1. Joseph
2. Hotchkiss
3. Boxberger

4. Perez

5.Fairel

6. Soto
7. Carroll
8. Serrano
9. Negron
10. Pick 'em

[cinreds21]

I'd have Carroll in front of Fairel.

[corkedbat]

I'd love to see Lexington as a Hi-A or AA club. The Legends have a pretty nice organization and park and they would explode if top Reds prospects were herr itstead of the Stros rookie leaguers. Will never happen though.

[texasdave]

Call me crazy but I am all for the Reds having their AA team in the Texas League. :)

[muddie]

Having a gut feeling the Reds will not return to Carolina, I emailed the Erie GM the other day to try and get a feel for the re-up possibilities for the AA Tiger's team. They used to be in Jacksonville years back and I was wondering if they might return to the SL. Not likely. Sounds like they're happy in Erie according to the Erie GM, who was very kind in responding to my inquiry in short time.

[nemesis]

Call me crazy but I am all for the Reds having their AA team in the Texas League. :)

For "less" than personal reasons, I'm sure... Lol

[Mario-Rijo]

While we're on the subject, if as some mentioned, close proximity to Cincy is a plus, where would your ideal minor league teams for the Reds be located? Pretend you are starting from scratch.

Like Brutus I'd keep Louisville and Dayton also would keep Billings just something about that place for me. That leaves AA and High A which I would strategically try to place one in Indiana and one in Either WV or Tenn. Don't know how that would work exactly but that is what I'd shoot for. Though I do like Carolina as an affiliate as well so perhaps just scooch High A around somewhere near Reds country.

[alexad]

One thing to remember is each league is designated for certain levels regarding A players. Flordia State League is High A, the team in Lexington Ky, is low A for the Astros.


Give the Indians credit, they have all but one of their minor league teams in Ohio.

The Reds could put their low A team in Lexington instead of the Carolina League. I am not sure what Dayton is considered. High A I think??

Low A teams use to be in Huntington WVa, etc. But when you do not get fans to attend, you have to go to bigger cities in order to pay the bills. Athens, Ohio and Parkersburg will never work, unless you build big time stadiums.

I mean look at the stadiums that are being built for the Frontier League. Maybe the Reds could buy the Florence Ky, stadium and park an A team there.

[JaxRed]

Dayton is Low A. Only way to get Lexington is lose Dayton.

[JaxRed]

Well, local Jax paper says agreement between Marlins and Suns will be signed today.

[gedred69]

I'd like to see one in Parkersburg, WV or Athens, OH. I wish there was a way to have Indy and Louisville, but I prefer Louisville because I like the city better. Bloomington is a cool town as well.

For the Reds to find a way to have an affiliate somewhere in W. Va. would be such a smart move. The draw of the Reds Caravan in W.Va. is consistently strong every Winter. Questions are, where, and what level/league? Geographically, is there a fit for a High A or AA league team?

[muddie]

O.K...half the Southern League has expiring agreements this year. If Cincy opts to leave Carolina and the SL, I can see the Giants coming here from Richmond. I can see the Nats leaving Harrisburg and moving to Richmond. Richmond would be a perfect fit for them. That would leave Harrisburg open for the Reds. The Reds have been in the SL quite some time with the 22 years at Chattanooga before coming here. I don't know that Cincy has any preference for leagues, don't know why they would. Harrisburg would be closer to Cincy and Louisville.

Thoughts?

[cinreds21]

The Giants were the other finalist for the Mudcats two years ago.

[Slyder]

I wish the WV Power had the ability to go high a or aa. The area would love to have the Reds back as parent club but the Reds wont sale Dayton.

[Mario-Rijo]

O.K...half the Southern League has expiring agreements this year. If Cincy opts to leave Carolina and the SL, I can see the Giants coming here from Richmond. I can see the Nats leaving Harrisburg and moving to Richmond. Richmond would be a perfect fit for them. That would leave Harrisburg open for the Reds. The Reds have been in the SL quite some time with the 22 years at Chattanooga before coming here. I don't know that Cincy has any preference for leagues, don't know why they would. Harrisburg would be closer to Cincy and Louisville.

Thoughts?

Harrisburg (or Richmond) wouldn't be awful though not ideal perse'. I would think the Reds would prefer to stay in the SL, but maybe not.

[muddie]

Without getting into details, I have learned that the Carolina Mudcats will remain the AA affilliate of the Reds beyond this year.

Now for Lynchburg...

[JaxRed]

Wow, that's pretty good news.

[GIDP]

I think Dayton and Louisville totally hurt the Reds attendance. Not a ton over all because its not like the 12k or what ever go to those games are going to start going to Reds games but its probably a thousand or two so a night.

I'm sure there is some give and take to it over all though.

[cinreds21]

Without getting into details, I have learned that the Carolina Mudcats will remain the AA affilliate of the Reds beyond this year.

Now for Lynchburg...

PM me info on this please.

[OesterPoster]

I think Dayton and Louisville totally hurt the Reds attendance. Not a ton over all because its not like the 12k or what ever go to those games are going to start going to Reds games but its probably a thousand or two so a night.

I'm sure there is some give and take to it over all though.

When I lived in Dayton, the issue for us was actually getting to Cincinnati. The last thing you felt like doing after a day at the office was fighting traffic on 75 to Cinci...then fight it all the way back to Dayton after the game. The Dragons games allow for a quick in-and-out game.

Now, the number of people who attend Dragons games...I don't think very many of those are "diehard" baseball fans who would be going to Reds games anyway. I'd say your thousand or two a night number is way too high.

[GIDP]

When I lived in Dayton, the issue for us was actually getting to Cincinnati. The last thing you felt like doing after a day at the office was fighting traffic on 75 to Cinci...then fight it all the way back to Dayton after the game. The Dragons games allow for a quick in-and-out game.

Now, the number of people who attend Dragons games...I don't think very many of those are "diehard" baseball fans who would be going to Reds games anyway. I'd say your thousand or two a night number is way too high.

I dont mean 1 or 2 thousand nightly I just mean it as an average through the course of a season. Weekend games would probably see the biggest boost in attendance. This is also under the assumption that Dayton and Louisville didnt have teams at all.

[muddie]

As of today...

The Lynchburg organization still intends to talk to other teams at the end of the year. Doesn't necessarily mean Lynchburg won't remain with the Reds but does create a wait and see situation.

[GOYA]

This is also under the assumption that Dayton and Louisville didnt have teams at all.

And that is a flawed assumption. Pro baseball in Louisville has a long history. There were a couple of gaps when we didn't have a team but over the years, you can see that Louisville had baseball. No reason to think it won't continue.


Club Played League
Louisville Grays 1876 - 1878 National League
Louisville Eclipse 1882 - 1884 American Association
Louisville Colonels 1884 - 1891 American Association
Louisville African Americans 1887 League of Colored Baseball Players
Louisville Colonels 1891 - 1899 National League
Louisville Colonels 1901 Western Association
Louisville Colonels 1901 - 1962 American Association
Louisville Buckeyes 1949 - 1950 Negro League
Louisville Colonels 1968 - 1972 International League
Louisville Redbirds 1982 - 1998 American Association
Louisville RiverBats 1998 - 2002 International League

[GIDP]

I dont

[mace]

The Reds and Mudcats have re-upped:

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100821&content_id=13739256&vkey=pr_t249&fext=.jsp&sid=t249

[Reds]

Very nice move by the Reds and the Mudcats


“We’re thrilled to continue our relationship with the Reds,” said Mudcats owner Steve Bryant. “We are proud to be part of such an esteemed and classy organization, and are looking forward to a great future as a member of the Reds’ family.”

:)

[malcontent]

Anyone know off the top the history of Reds' AA teams, prior to Chattanooga and Carolina?

I'm curious when they've had a team in the Eastern or, yes, Texas Leagues.

[Tony Cloninger]

They were in Vermont during some of the 80's.

I remember mainly the 70's farm teams. They had a team in Seattle for A. Ashville and Cedar Rapids were big stops......but not Willoughby or Rancho Cucamonga.

[muddie]

I really hope Lynchburg will stay with Cincy as well.

[texasdave]

Anyone know off the top the history of Reds' AA teams, prior to Chattanooga and Carolina?

I'm curious when they've had a team in the Eastern or, yes, Texas Leagues.

Reds Minor League Affiliates for-ev-er. http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/affiliate.cgi?id=CIN

[malcontent]

Reds Minor League Affiliates for-ev-er. http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/affiliate.cgi?id=CIN
Very nice.

There's Vermont.

Oh, to have been in Havana in '59.

[malcontent]

Harrisburg (or Richmond) wouldn't be awful though not ideal perse'. I would think the Reds would prefer to stay in the SL, but maybe not.
Living in Richmond, I was not too happy with us losing the IL team.

If the Reds would only move their AA franchise here, they would practically own the flying mammal market.

[cinreds21]

Just got conformation as to what the Mudcats are gonna do.

[muddie]

After reading through the press release, it sounds like both parties plan for this relationship to last quite some time. That's fantastic.

[Brutus]

Just got conformation as to what the Mudcats are gonna do.

They already spilled the beans. So your confirmation is a bit late ;)

[cinreds21]

Yup. Waste of a post then i guess

[muddie]

Living in Richmond, I was not too happy with us losing the IL team.

If the Reds would only move their AA franchise here, they would practically own the flying mammal market.

Am I correct in saying the Squirrels are second best in Eastern League attendance?

[malcontent]

Am I correct in saying the Squirrels are second best in Eastern League attendance?
I believe that's right, muddie.

[JaxRed]

On High A Front, Modesto resigned with Rockies so they are off the possibles list. Dodgers apparently want to buy Rancho Cucamonga. So they will be off the possibles list. Still nothing on Myrtle Beach going to Rangers which could be the trigger to Reds ending up in California.

California League
Bakersfield Blaze Rangers 2010
High Desert Mavericks Mariners 2010
Inland Empire 66ers Dodgers 2010
Rancho Cucamonga Quakes Angels 2010

Carolina League
Kinston Indians Indians 2010
Lynchburg Hillcats Reds 2010
Myrtle Beach Pelicans Braves 2010
Wilmington Blue Rocks Royals 2010

[muddie]

The Reds going to California would be a disaster in my opinion. Much like San Fran's AA team in Richmond, just doesn't make sense.

[alexad]

Myrtle Beach is a great place to put a team. We always plan our vacation when the Pelicans are at home. Great atmosphere and the stadium is always full in the summer. Great local fan support. I would push for a team to play there. Visiting teams love to come there because the players spend the mornings on the beach.

[alexad]

Also consider the fact many families from Ohio and Kentucky visit Myrtle Beach for vacations. Could help build the fan base and get more people interested in the young guys. I always found it hard to root for the Pelicans because they were a Braves Minor League team, but we have seen many Major League players go through MB including visiting teams players.

They also expanded the stadium some with seats in the outfield. Again just a great place to watch baseball and the field is kept in awesome condition.

[JaxRed]

Myrtle Beach's owner is now part owner of the Rangers......, and if for some reason they don't go with Rangers, why would they leave the Braves?

The Reds will possibly be the last choice of every franchise. They were in California before because they were last choice, and they are in Lynchburg because the Reds were imposed on them for one year when Pirates bought Sarasota. And now Lynchburg is looking at other options.

We are beggars at High A not choosers.

[JaxRed]

FYI, the normal affiliation renewal period ended yesterday. Starting the 16th, new affiliations can be announced.

Last team standing gets to be the Bakersfield Blaze.

Wilmington re-signed with KC so we are down to

California League
Bakersfield Blaze Rangers 2010
High Desert Mavericks Mariners 2010
Inland Empire 66ers Dodgers 2010
Rancho Cucamonga Quakes Angels 2010

Carolina League
Kinston Indians Indians 2010
Lynchburg Hillcats Reds 2010
Myrtle Beach Pelicans Braves 2010
Potomac Nationals 2010

With rumors that the Dodgers are buying the Quakes, and the Pelicans hooking up with Rangers. I added Potomac back in. Everyone assumed they were a slam dunk but it hasn't happened yet.

[JaxRed]

From Hillcats Facebook Page:

"Fans, as many of you know the Hillcats player development contract with the Cincinnati Reds expired at the end of this season. As of this week the Hillcats have notified the
Minor League Baseball office stating we are interested in seeing what other Major League clubs are available. This does not necessarily ...mean that the Cincinnati Reds will not be back in 2011"

[Caveat Emperor]

So, if someone could educate me, why are the Reds the "beggers" in this situation? Is it something the organization does that makes them unattractive as a partner to these minor league teams?

[JaxRed]

They have consistenly put a bad product on the year at High A for years, and the Low A team that's coming up stinks.

The team on the field is what the owner is selling.

[corkedbat]

Jax, with all the talent on the Rookie legue teams, do you see guy jumping Billings to A+ or Goodyear to Dayton?

[muddie]

Below is the most recent Facebook posting by Lynchburg. Some of the responses I read in regard to the earlier statement about the team possibly looking elsewhere for an MLB affiliation give me the impression that the fans aren't very happy about being part of the Reds system. At the same time, I think they are missing the point and purpose of a minor league team.

we are just exploring all available options at this time and we will keep you
updated on our facebook and twitter accounts as new information
arrives. Don't worry, due to Minor League Baseball rules Lynchburg is
guaranteed to have a team next season.

[cinreds21]

Anyone find it kinda odd for Lynchburg to be so open with the situation?

[JaxRed]

Not really. Once you let agreement expire, it's obvious they are looking. They went from League Champions to last place when they switched to Reds.

And they team they will draw from to supplement their team.... (Dayton), oh yeah they are last place too !!

[HokieRed]

The Reds have put themselves in a kind of odd position vis-a-vis High A Leagues by the move out of Sarasota for Spring Training. I've never been able to quite figure out what their attitude toward the Carolina League is. They were in here (I'm a Carolina League fan) for a couple years back in the Chad Mottola days at Winston-Salem, then lost that, and then they were back a few years ago for a year at Potomac, which they lost when Montreal moved to Washington and Potomac went with Wash. Now this year they've been in Lynchburg, but it doesn't seem like they did much of anything in the way of player positioning to persuade Lynchburg to keep them. There's really not much identification with the Reds here in central VA. The Florida State League doesn't make a lot of sense, the way it did when you had both your Spring training and Rookie teams there at one complex. And you don't get any real advantage of any kind by being in the California League.

[muddie]

and for what it is worth...The Bradenton Marauders, the Pirates Advanced A team, made the playoffs again this year. I'm sure that makes the Lynchburg brass all the more eager to hear other offers.

I do know for a fact that the Lynchburg officials do know they hold the cards in this game. They know Cincy is on the outside looking in at this point. Tough spot to be in now. The Pirates/Lynchburg relationship was a very close one and the circumstances of the past year have Cincy playing the bad guy role there now.

[JaxRed]

Hey, the Braves are probably going to be available.... I'd wait and see if I could get them if I was Lynchburg

[HokieRed]

Hey, the Braves are probably going to be available.... I'd wait and see if I could get them if I was Lynchburg

Pirates have a strong connection in this area of VA, having been for many years--good ones at that--in Salem before moving to Lynchburg.

[muddie]

Lynchburg is now an Atlanta affiliate.


http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100916&content_id=14741936&vkey=news_t481&fext=.jsp&sid=t481

[AWA85]

Where do the Reds turn now???

[HokieRed]

Lynchburg is now an Atlanta affiliate.


http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100916&content_id=14741936&vkey=news_t481&fext=.jsp&sid=t481

What's happening down at Myrtle where the Braves were?

[JaxRed]

Was talked abut earlier in the thread. The former Braves team is owned by the new owners of the Rangers, so Myrtle Beach will be a Rangers affiliate.

Lynchburg gets the Braves, and the Reds will probably end up in Bakersfield Cal, in a facility that doesn't meet minor league standards.

[JaxRed]

In fact, Indians re-signed with Kinston.

The Reds are now essentially locked into California.

[HokieRed]

Was talked abut earlier in the thread. The former Braves team is owned by the new owners of the Rangers, so Myrtle Beach will be a Rangers affiliate.

Lynchburg gets the Braves, and the Reds will probably end up in Bakersfield Cal, in a facility that doesn't meet minor league standards.

So the Rangers bought the club. This is what the Red Sox did in Salem too. One way to lock in a place permanently. Is anything going to be open in the FSL?

[JaxRed]

Nothing is open. The Reds are going to California. Here's how Ballpark Digest sums it up:

"The loss leaves the Reds in the lurch. There are only three High Class A teams left on the block, and they're all in the Cal League: the Bakersfield Blaze, the Inland Empire 66ers and the Rancho Cucamonga Quakes. We're told the Los Angeles Dodgers will be buying into the Quakes and switching affiliations. If so, then it will be down to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim and the Reds to fight over the 66ers and the Blaze. We'd be amazed if the 66ers didn't end up with the Angels; that would leave the Reds with the Blaze."

[HokieRed]

Thanks, Jax. Sorry to see this.

[JaxRed]

Could see this coming for a long time. The only good part about this is that franchise can be bought and moved. If the Reds are proactive, they can buy the franchise, and sheperd the move of that team and one more to the Carolina League some time down the line. (that was attempted 2 years ago).

[TStuck]

Ok, purely speculative question......if you were the Reds and bought the Bakersfield franchise and arranged a move to the Carolina League, in what cities might you look to relocate your new franchise?

[texasdave]

you mean the Reds AA team will be walking the streets of Bakersfield in 2011?

[TStuck]

High A actually, but yes they'll be walking them streets (with Buck Owens singing in their ears)

[HokieRed]

Could see this coming for a long time. The only good part about this is that franchise can be bought and moved. If the Reds are proactive, they can buy the franchise, and sheperd the move of that team and one more to the Carolina League some time down the line. (that was attempted 2 years ago).

Wonder how possible that would be in the Carolina League. Those towns haven't changed or been added to in years, and it would seem you'd need another club to join in order to keep the league balance.

[JaxRed]

2 years ago there was movement afoot to move 2 teams to Carolina League from the Cal League. The logistics never quite worked out.

Here was one of the links

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/minors/business-beat/2008/266614.html

The High Desert owner wants to sell, and the Bakersfield team plays in substandard facility. If you're the Reds and you want a club east of the Mississippi, you could make it happen.

But I almost fear the Reds are saying "You know, Bakersfield, ain't that far from Goodyear"

[muddie]

The following is a portion of an email I received on June 14th from Paul Sunwall, GM of the Lynchburg franchise, upon inquiring about the future of the Hillcats. I don't think there is any reals 'news' here but it is interesting in that the decision is final and you can see, early on, that Lynchburg wasn't really interested in staying with Cincy.


The Reds have already offered an extension but we will likely wait until the end of the season to respond. We did have interest from a couple of other ML teams last year and will at least weigh in on them if they are still interested. At the present time, everything is going well with Cincinnati, and they will certainly be considered. I don't think the Reds are interested in going to the California League and they just came from the Florida State League, so we know they are happy to be in the Carolina League and want to stay. We'll see. Our facility was renovated in 2004 at a cost of $7 million.

[muddie]

2 years ago there was movement afoot to move 2 teams to Carolina League from the Cal League. The logistics never quite worked out.

In the article JaxRed provided, Fayetteville was mentioned as a possible site for relocating a team from the California League to the Carolina League. Giving this some thought, and pondering other locations that may satisfy a Carolina League label, Columbia, SC comes to mind. This would give SC two teams in the Carolina League. Columbia being the capital of the state should be able to support an Advanced A team I would think. Whatever political maneuvering needed to make it happen shouldn't be an obstacle here if the right people were involved. There is currently a Capital City Stadium there now that was rebuilt in 1991. The park has been without a team for five years and I imagine needs huge upgrades at this point. Should a team look at Columbia I would have to think there would be a brand new park in the works, much like what Winston-Salem just did.

Fayetteville doesn't have any park there suitable for a minor league team. The old park, JP Riddle Stadium, was lacking by SAL standards 20 years ago. The last team to play there left because of a poor facility and poor attendance. The team was actually a winnig ball club, the Cape Fear Crocs of the Motreal system. At first glance, I would think Columbia would be the more desirable relocation point for a Carolina League entry although we do have to look at two teams and location to make this happen. Both Columbia and Fayetteville would fit well geograhically into the Carolina League layout.

I am dreaming here I know, but it would be awesome if the Reds would buy a team and be proactive and move into one of these markets. Either would be in close proximity to the Mudcats. I believe the Reds and Carolina Mudcats are going to be together for a while now having been through the initial PDC agreement. The Carolina League is an excellent Advanced A league and I believe this is Cincy's preference for their Advanced A location.

[JaxRed]

Other possibilities would be Wilimngton, NC and maybe Newport News/Hampton Virginia which had a team about 15 years ago (when I lived there).

[bellhead]

Hilton Head S.C. would be the most obvious city to put it in. It would give Reds fans a chance to vacation and then go watch the future Redleg stars while down here on vacation. Also the area is big enough to support the team, the Sandnats over in Savannah draw well for the Mets organization. Also I am pretty sure we can even get Marty to come and broadcast a game or two a year down here....

[Heath]

Other possibilities would be Wilimngton, NC and maybe Newport News/Hampton Virginia which had a team about 15 years ago (when I lived there).

Bring back the Grays!!!! (or Pilots!)

[corkedbat]

I think they should upgrade the Lexington Legends and move them to Carolina League. Of course, I might have just a bit of a personal agenda. :D

[joshnky]

So, if someone could educate me, why are the Reds the "beggers" in this situation? Is it something the organization does that makes them unattractive as a partner to these minor league teams?

This is an example of why it is important to consider the minor league teams as well as the major league teams when making promotion decisions. While the relationship is presently very strong, if the Reds continue to gut Louisville so that players can come up and not play, as they did this month, they'll have difficulty maintaining a coaching staff and it might prompt Louisville to consider other options. Yonder Alonso and either Maloney or Lecure could have made a difference in the AAA playoffs while they've been largely inconsequential in the majors.

[dougdirt]

This is an example of why it is important to consider the minor league teams as well as the major league teams when making promotion decisions. While the relationship is presently very strong, if the Reds continue to gut Louisville so that players can come up and not play, as they did this month, they'll have difficulty maintaining a coaching staff and it might prompt Louisville to consider other options. Yonder Alonso and either Maloney or Lecure could have made a difference in the AAA playoffs while they've been largely inconsequential in the majors.
I don't think this is true at all until you say Maloney/Alonso would have helped in the playoffs. Louisville has won the division 3 years running now. And like all AAA teams, there are going to be times when you get gutted for the big league team. It happens to everyone, not just the Reds.

[GIDP]

Hey John Fay reported that the Lynchburg Mudcats werent going to be the Reds high A team. Anyone have any info on this franchise? I cant find anything about them.

[JaxRed]

GIDP are you joking?

They were the Peninsula Pilots when I was there. Terrible stadium. Seattle franchise I think.

[GIDP]

GIDP are you joking?

They were the Peninsula Pilots when I was there. Terrible stadium. Seattle franchise I think.

I'm not joking about John Fay thinking lynchburg is the mudcats

[LincolnparkRed]

People have thought that the minor league teams nearby can hurt attendance, not sure if they do, but you could argue it extends the fan interest even more.

Crazy, the Reds used to have a AAA in Seattle.

when someone mentioned they had Mudville I went to check out baseball reference. They had the lumber kings (had a hat of theirs, but it was a SF team then) and the Havana Sugar Kings in Cuba before Castro, which I thought was pretty cool. Those must have been long road trips.

[JaxRed]

I'm not joking about John Fay thinking lynchburg is the mudcats

Ahhh I knew I was missing something....

[garnetpalmetto]

Hello all, first tome poster here - Mudcats fan from Raleigh (as well as a fan of minor league baseball in general). Thought I'd chime in on some of the forecasting of the future that's going on re: where the Reds could move Bakersfield (as that appears the most likely affiliate for Cincinnati) to in the Carolina League should the Reds purchase the Blaze.

First let's look at it if a two-team move from the Cal League to the Carolina League happens in a bubble (no other movement/realignment in the minors writ large): in the Carolina League footprint y'all have identified most of the cities that could be possible sites. I don't think a city that's never had affiliated minor league baseball, like Hilton Head, would be a wise choice for a variety of reasons. There are a few cities in addition who've had affiliated minor league ball in the past 20 years, so let's go through the list of cities in the footprint (which I'm defining as SC, NC, VA, MD, and DE) of the Carolina League who no longer have teams.

Columbia, SC - Last had affiliated minor league ball in 2004 - Capital City Bombers, since moved to Greenville, SC. The big problem here, as muddie points out, is lack of facility. Now, Columbia has a special place in my heart - it's my hometown and I lived there until 2005. However, it ain't happening. Capital City Stadium is not going to be a place for minor league ball. It's in a fairly industrial part of town between downtown proper and the State Fairgrounds and USC's football stadium. The field drains poorly (and always had, no matter how much money's been sunk into fixes, repairs, and upgrades) and there were often several games that had to be canceled because the field was a lake. A new stadium was built on the city's riverfront for USC, but historically USC is bad about sharing its facilities, especially its new ones. Additionally, USC's intransigence on stadium sharing was one of the primary reasons the Bombers moved to Greenville. There was also talk of building a park in the city's northeastern suburbs as part of The Village at Sandhills, a mixed use development, but NIMBYs killed that dead. As much as I'd love to see affiliated ball back in my hometown, I don't think it's happening anytime soon without a new minor-league only stadium.

Fayetteville, NC - Last had affiliated minor league baseball in 2000 - Cape Fear Crocs, since moved to Lakewood, NJ. Again, facility's an issue. Fayetteville, like Columbia, is home to one honking big military base (Fort Bragg in this case) so you'd have a ready, albeit transient, fanbase. While the park has since been completed since the Crocs left, J.P. Riddle is still no beauty. Beyond that, attendance has to be a concern here. The Crocs would be moving up from the non-affiliated Coastal Plains League, a college wooden bat league team. There have been no attempts to move an affiliated team to Fayetteville in the last 10 years, and when the Crocs left, attendance was pretty dismal.

Gastonia, NC - Last had affiliated minor league baseball in 1992 - Gastonia Rangers, since moved to Hickory, NC. Facility in big bold letters. Sims Legion Park hasn't had any major upgrades since 1992 and is also currently a CPL stadium. Gastonia's in the Charlotte metro area, so it's possible that might help, though it's doubtful. The AAA Charlotte Knights also play about the same distance (give or take 3 miles) and their attendance has suffered due to their distance from the Queen City.

Hampton, VA - Last had affiliated minor league baseball in 1992 - Peninsula Pilots, since moved to Wilmington, DE. A lot of the same issues as Gatonia - another "facility" issue. War Memorial Stadium is 60 years old. Beyond that you have AAA ball a stone's throw away in Norfolk with a more favorable regional affiliation (the Tides are Baltimore's top farm team)

Martinsville, VA - Last had affiliated minor league baseball in 2003 - Martinsville Astros, since moved to Greenville, TN. Martinsville has never been the home of any level of baseball higher than the Appy League. That'd be a concern. Another concern is, of course, the facility. Hooker Field is one of the newer parks on this list, but lacks bells and whistles that are becoming par for the course at the High-A level.

Spartanburg, SC - Last had affiliated minor league baseball in 1995 - Spartanburg Phillies, since moved to Kannapolis, NC. Again, facility. Duncan Field was saved from destruction, but it's now a high school/American Legion field. You'd need a completely new park. The problem here, again, is another successful team in close proximity, this time the Greenville Drive. Not sure how well the area could handle two clubs in such close proximity.

Sumter, SC - Last had affiliated minor league baseball in 1991 - Sumter Flyers - since moved to Albany, GA and then Salisbury, MD. First, I don't think Sumter's quite big enough to support a minor league team, even with Shaw AFB in close proximity. Beyond that, again, facility. Riley Park is an inaccessible dump only being used by American Legion teams.

Wilmington, NC - Last had affiliated minor league baseball in 2001 - Wilmington Waves - since moved to Albany, GA, Columbus, GA, and finally Bowling Green, KY. This facility would have promise if not for one big thing that caused it to not only run off the Waves but also their predecessors, the Port City Roosters...it's on the campus of UNC-Wilmington, meaning...no beer sales.

So having looked at all those options, nothing looks too great. Which leads to the next possibility - a move as part of a larger minor league realignment. If that were to happen, cities like Greensboro, Greenville, Asheville, and Charleston - all of which have great fan support and great facilities come into play and I think that's your best bet, not cities who've already lost teams for facilities or attendance reasons.

[fearofpopvol1]

I don't think this is true at all until you say Maloney/Alonso would have helped in the playoffs. Louisville has won the division 3 years running now. And like all AAA teams, there are going to be times when you get gutted for the big league team. It happens to everyone, not just the Reds.

Can you honestly say the time that Alonso was yanked from Louisville until the time the Bats finished the season, Alonso contributed a lot to the Reds? What did he have, maybe 5 PAs and 1 hit during that time? I think he could have contributed more to Louisville.

[dougdirt]

Can you honestly say the time that Alonso was yanked from Louisville until the time the Bats finished the season, Alonso contributed a lot to the Reds? What did he have, maybe 5 PAs and 1 hit during that time? I think he could have contributed more to Louisville.

That is the part I agreed with. It was the rest of the post that I didn't agree with.

[Gallen5862]

The other facility in Wilmington NC that could be used is Buck Hardee Field at Legion Stadium. This Facility hosts the Wilmington Sharks Summer league for College Players using Wooden Bats. The Field also is the home of the New Hanover High Wildcats. Post 10 the American Legion team also plays there. The Port City Roosters and the Wilmington Waves had great attendence at UNC Wilmingtons Brook Field. Both teams had great attendence. The Mariners with the Roosters had a Two Year contract and the Dodgers with the Waves were only here 1 year. I believe that if the Reds were willing to make a longer commitment with Wilmington it would be a great feeder team to the Carolina Mudcats.

[JaxRed]

I have familiararity with the whole Hamptom Roads situation having lived their 12 years. The northside (Hampton, and Newport News), is whole different world than the Southide (Va. Beach, Norfolk, etc.) You can't get there without going thru tunnels that back up.

There may be lots of problems with Hampton/Newport News... but the Norfolk team is not one of them

[muddie]

The Texas Rangers Advanced A team is now officially in Myrtle Beach. Good call JaxRed.

The Indians re-upped with Kinston.

[Brutus]

The Texas Rangers Advanced A team is now officially in Myrtle Beach. Good call JaxRed.

The Indians re-upped with Kinston.

I love the MiLB site. They've been very quick with updates as these things changes. Lynchburg is already listed as an Atlanta affiliate, Myrtle Beach with Texas, etc. When I was collecting some data the other day for my project, it was alarming to see Lynchburg already listed with Atlanta.

[muddie]

Yesterday I inquired to the Bakersfield GM as to when they would announce a new affiliation. Their web site does not identify a team but the GM still has the Rangers in his email signature. His response is:



There is a process which needs to be followed. Once we have officially gone into contract with a MLB team, we will of course announce it. Thanks for following the Blaze!


Best Wishes,

Justin B. Kozubal
General Manager
Bakersfield Blaze Professional Baseball
California League Affiliate of the Texas Rangers

[JaxRed]

Rancho Cucamonga goes to Dodgers as expected. Down to Inland Empire or Bakersfield.


http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100928&content_id=15176170&vkey=news_l110&fext=.jsp&sid=l110

[RED VAN HOT]

http://www.truebluela.com/2010/9/28/1717587/dodgers-switch-class-a-affiliation-from-inland-empire-to-rancho

Another story on the Dodgers. This one speculates that the Angels will take Inland Empire.

[Tony Cloninger]

Bakersfield is too far for me and feels too much like "Running with the Devil" atmosphere driving out there.

[RedsManRick]

Rancho Cucamonga goes to Dodgers as expected. Down to Inland Empire or Bakersfield.


http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100928&content_id=15176170&vkey=news_l110&fext=.jsp&sid=l110

Doesn't Bakersfield have a reputation as pretty much a wasteland?

[dougdirt]

Doesn't Bakersfield have a reputation as pretty much a wasteland?

Yes. It is an absolute disaster.

[camisadelgolf]

Doesn't Bakersfield have a reputation as pretty much a wasteland?
Maybe the players can use that as motivation to move up in the organization.

[nmculbreth]

Out of curiousity, is it the norm for affiliates to be owned by the parent club or to be independently owned and subject to affiliation contracts?

Given the instability after selling the high-A team in Sarasota, wouldn't it be in the club's best interest to look to purchase another in the league / city of their choosing rather than being bounced around and ending up being stuck in a situation like they have found themselves?

[JaxRed]

In the past, it was rare for that to happen, but it's becoming much more common. Almost all the Florida State teams are owned for example.

The Reds should grab the bull by the horns though and make this happen. (assuming I don't win the lottery and do it myself)

[Slyder]

In the past, it was rare for that to happen, but it's becoming much more common. Almost all the Florida State teams are owned for example.

The Reds should grab the bull by the horns though and make this happen. (assuming I don't win the lottery and do it myself)

West Virginia Power Please :D.

[camisadelgolf]

West Virginia Power Please :D.
My favorite thing about that team is that they had white West Virginia Power t-shirts, and online, they were listed as something to the effect of 'White Power T-Shirts'.

[JaxRed]

It's official:

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100930&content_id=15256760&vkey=news_milb&fext=.jsp

Angels sign with Inland Empire, and Reds will have to settle for Bakersfield (and vice versa)

[Brutus]

Single-A Siberia! Woot.

[RED VAN HOT]

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/team1/page.jsp?ymd=20070123&content_id=160397&vkey=team1_t423&fext=.jsp&sid=t423

Sam Lynn Park is only 354 feet to center.

[Heath]

Can't the Reds pass or something?

;)

[LoganBuck]

Sam Lynn Ballpark is probably best remembered for being built backwards (the sun sets in the hitters eyes)

:KoolAid:

[marcshoe]

How many of you that sit and judge me
can play the fields of Bakersfield?

Buck Owens used to play every weekend in a club he owned there, but I understand he doesn't show up much anymore.

[marcshoe]

Doesn't Bakersfield have a reputation as pretty much a wasteland?


Relatively speaking, it's not all that far from Yosemite. I think Jay Bruce hit a ball off full-dome in that park once and, well, you know the rest.

http://beust.com/pics/halfdome.jpg

Sorry. I'm very tired.

[Caveat Emperor]

Well, this sucks.

Count me among the people who think that this whole system is backwards. And, additionally, this is a big whiff on the part of the Reds for not seeing this problem coming. Maybe they don't care, but it's annoying that they'll be splitting their farm system so far apart. It can't possibly be efficient for scouting and organizational purposes to have your teams so spread out.

[Kradokk]

Living in CA, and being a San Jose Giants season ticket holder, I am pretty thrilled with this.

Sucks that its Bakersfield, but at least I have a Reds team I get to see now! :beerme:

[JaxRed]

Reds have signed their contract

http://www.turnto23.com/sports/25278533/detail.html

Both parties are very excited :rolleyes:

[Brutus]

The PR people of both clubs must have threw up in their mouth after having to script those statements. In fact, probably makes them want to quit.

[OnBaseMachine]

From Jamie Ramsey:

#Reds and Billings extend player development contract through the 2014 season

http://twitter.com/Jamieblog

[camisadelgolf]

Great news. I love them as an affiliate.

[cinreds21]

Got news about who a minor manager is going to be next year for the Reds. Not sure if I can/should disclose it though.

[lollipopcurve]

Got news about who a minor manager is going to be next year for the Reds. Not sure if I can/should disclose it though.

Hint?

[cinreds21]

lol, just know ofone person, not sure about the staff for one of the affiliates.

[camisadelgolf]

Got news about who a minor manager is going to be next year for the Reds. Not sure if I can/should disclose it though.
Don't do it. Word spreads incredibly fast over the internet. But if you have to tell someone, I recommend being very picky about you tell. I also recommend being vague i.e. "There's a rumor going around that __________ is managing the Blaze this year."

[scott91575]

Interesting how bad people feel about Bakersfield. I suppose most of it is about the ballclub, but I have actually been to that town. The only thing I remember is I couldn't see anything. It was all smog for the few hours I was there. Seemed pretty depressing.

[Brutus]

http://www.minorleagueballparks.com/saml_ca.html

http://www.minorleagueballparks.com/samlyn99.jpg

[camisadelgolf]

I once dated a girl from Bakersfield (probably one of the top-five hottest girls I've dated). Anyway, she was really proud of where she was from even though it seemed like all her friends were drug addicts--and to a degree, she was, too. But anyway, I always got a bad impression of the place. The weird thing is that I hear it's growing rapidly, so there's apparently something there that's drawing people in.

[AWA85]

The ballpark photo looks REALLY depressing.... guess players are not going to like being promoted from Dayton.

[dougdirt]

The ballpark photo looks REALLY depressing.... guess players are not going to like being promoted from Dayton.

Oh they will still love it because they are now one step closer to their ultimate goal.... the Major Leagues. Dayton is nice and all with 7-8,000 fans a night, but I imagine that if you asked the players they would rather he playing at High A with 8 people in the stands than in Dayton with 8,000.

[camisadelgolf]

If I were a young, attractive man in good shape--which I am, but that's besides the point--I'd rather be hanging out with valley girls than Dayton girls. Besides, I bet Bakersfield is more easily accessible than Dayton for a lot of the players' families (Shane Carlson, Frank Pfister, Mark Serrano, Lance Janke, Curtis Partch, etc.). There are a lot more reasons than just the facilities for wanting to play in Bakersfield over Dayton.

[OesterPoster]

Oh they will still love it because they are now one step closer to their ultimate goal.... the Major Leagues. Dayton is nice and all with 7-8,000 fans a night, but I imagine that if you asked the players they would rather he playing at High A with 8 people in the stands than in Dayton with 8,000.

When the high A team was in Sarasota, they probably averaged about 11 fans attending each game.

[RedRedhawk]

Miami U and UC have better looking parks then that, and they are not college baseball power houses as far as I know...Bakersfield needs to get with the times.

[dougdirt]

When the high A team was in Sarasota, they probably averaged about 11 fans attending each game.

It wasn't quite that bad. It was generally over 500. Still laughable, but not quite 11.

[camisadelgolf]

When the high A team was in Sarasota, they probably averaged about 11 fans attending each game.
. . . and that was including the staff, players, umpires, and mascots.

[redsmetz]

Miami U and UC have better looking parks then that, and they are not college baseball power houses as far as I know...Bakersfield needs to get with the times.

I wonder if that's something the Reds will work on with the team out there. I know other clubs have been there previously and haven't done it up to now, but it's just a thought I had.

[JaxRed]

I wonder if that's something the Reds will work on with the team out there. I know other clubs have been there previously and haven't done it up to now, but it's just a thought I had.

No...... the Reds ended up in Bakersfield because they were the least attractive High A team available. There is no interest in Bakersfield.

Bakersfield will be a (hopefully) 2 year stop in the Reds never ending saga of "where will the Reds High A team be". They are now in their 8th city since 1996.

(Winston-Salem, Burlington, Clinton, Stockton, Potomac, Sarasota, Lynchburg, Bakersfield).

[Caveat Emperor]

I still don't understand why more teams don't try to own their minor league affiliates. Seems like the people who run these outfits are mostly-annoying middlemen in the whole process of player development.

[Brutus]

I still don't understand why more teams don't try to own their minor league affiliates. Seems like the people who run these outfits are mostly-annoying middlemen in the whole process of player development.

I think that's coming in the next 5 years, CE. The trend has already begun. I am completely expecting the entire minor leagues to be club-owned in the next 10 years.

[gedred69]

I still don't understand why more teams don't try to own their minor league affiliates. Seems like the people who run these outfits are mostly-annoying middlemen in the whole process of player development.

The Reds did own High A Sarasota, until the town dissed them as to up-grading the entire training facility.

[redsof72]

Brutus, you certainly have a right to your opinion, but that is highly unlikely. First of all, minor league baseball is far more broad than player development. The franchises are privately owned "for-profit" commodities that are operated with an aggressive goal of maximizing a return on investment. Why, for instance, would the owners of the Dayton franchise possibly have any interest in selling the team to the Reds? The team's value is probably $15 million. The Reds are not going to pay that, and even if they would, it might not be enough to get Mandalay to sell. And the Reds have no interest in operating a minor league franchise at the attention level required in Dayton.

Minor league baseball changed dramatically in the early and mid 1980's when the opposite happened. Back then, when almost every minor league team was owned by its major league affiliate, drawing less than 1,000 fans per game, playing in dirty, dingy municiple parks, and losing money, major league front offices got tired of running the teams and started selling their minor league clubs to private businessmen. The businessmen started operating the clubs as businesses (marketing the teams, scheduling promotions, upgrading the facilities, scheduling group outings) and attendance absolutely skyrocketed. Thus, the value of the franchises skyrocketed because the teams were suddenly profitable and because the new owners WERE MORE SKILLED AT RUNNING THE TEAMS than the major league clubs ever tried to be. Teams that once could be acquired simply for an assumption of debt are now selling for $10-20 million.

Why do you think all the owners would turn around and sell their companies now? And they would be selling at a price based on the continuation of a level of profitability that the major league clubs would have to continue to match (meaning they would have to keep running the teams to make money--unlikely, and that is important to understand).

I would turn around the statement above that the owners are "annoying middlemen" and say that if you asked many of those owners, they would tell you the opposite, that the players were the necessary but "annoying middlemen" in the profitability of their businesses.

The Reds are in Bakersfield because Bakersfield was the least attractive of the available Advanced-A franchises and the Reds were the least attractive organization to work with among those in the hunt. It was a game of musical chairs and Bakersfield and the Reds were the last two standing. Now the Reds get to play in a terrible facility with outfield dimensions unfit for proper player development that is isolated from their other clubs (meaning their players get to spend all day on planes every time there is a roster move). That is one of the many penalties the Reds are subject to in exchange for putting losing teams on the field at the Single-A level.

Those who tell you that winning in the minor leagues is not important have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. There are many, many reasons why it is important and this is just one of them.

[Brutus]

Brutus, you certainly have a right to your opinion, but that is highly unlikely. First of all, minor league baseball is far more broad than player development. The franchises are privately owned "for-profit" commodities that are operated with an aggressive goal of maximizing a return on investment. Why, for instance, would the owners of the Dayton franchise possibly have any interest in selling the team to the Reds? The team's value is probably $15 million. The Reds are not going to pay that, and even if they would, it might not be enough to get Mandalay to sell. And the Reds have no interest in operating a minor league franchise at the attention level required in Dayton.

Minor league baseball changed dramatically in the early and mid 1980's when the opposite happened. Back then, when almost every minor league team was owned by its major league affiliate, drawing less than 1,000 fans per game, playing in dirty, dingy municiple parks, and losing money, major league front offices got tired of running the teams and started selling their minor league clubs to private businessmen. The businessmen started operating the clubs as businesses (marketing the teams, scheduling promotions, upgrading the facilities, scheduling group outings) and attendance absolutely skyrocketed. Thus, the value of the franchises skyrocketed because the teams were suddenly profitable and because the new owners WERE MORE SKILLED AT RUNNING THE TEAMS than the major league clubs ever tried to be. Teams that once could be acquired simply for an assumption of debt are now selling for $10-20 million.

Why do you think all the owners would turn around and sell their companies now? And they would be selling at a price based on the continuation of a level of profitability that the major league clubs would have to continue to match (meaning they would have to keep running the teams to make money--unlikely, and that is important to understand).

I would turn around the statement above that the owners are "annoying middlemen" and say that if you asked many of those owners, they would tell you the opposite, that the players were the necessary but "annoying middlemen" in the profitability of their businesses.

The Reds are in Bakersfield because Bakersfield was the least attractive of the available Advanced-A franchises and the Reds were the least attractive organization to work with among those in the hunt. It was a game of musical chairs and Bakersfield and the Reds were the last two standing. Now the Reds get to play in a terrible facility with outfield dimensions unfit for proper player development that is isolated from their other clubs (meaning their players get to spend all day on planes every time there is a roster move). That is one of the many penalties the Reds are subject to in exchange for putting losing teams on the field at the Single-A level.

Those who tell you that winning in the minor leagues is not important have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. There are many, many reasons why it is important and this is just one of them.

I see what you're saying, but there's a little bit of a contradiction. On one hand you say Major League teams want no part of owning organizations, yet you say that minor league franchises have become businesses and operated for profit (which I totally agree with). Since when do Major League franchises not want to operate for profit?

It actually makes perfect sense if you look at the landscape of the corporate world.

Why do you think the Yankees, Red Sox, Nationals, Orioles (and even A's and Royals tried) started their own TV networks? To cut out the middle man and make a profit. They could show a lower revenue being paid to them from broadcasting rights fees, but increase their profitability as an ownership group by bringing in money from advertising within the networks, run separately.

Why do you think Google and Yahoo are acquiring established companies to expand their businesses? Because, yes, they could continue having others do the work for them and pay out, but it's better to run it yourself and bring in all the profits.

MLB franchises are no different. This is a corporate world and now that minor league franchise are making money (something they weren't doing when all those teams were sold off), they have become far more attractive.

You're saying that Major League teams won't go that direction because they're being operated for profit. I'm saying they absolutely will go that direction because they're being operated for profit.

Mandalay is out to get a return on their investment. They'd sell Round Rock, Staten Island, Dayton and whatever other of the 7-10 teams they own now, if the time value of money is greater than they've invested in them.

As for the operations of the clubs, well a lot of the daily operations have been automated through the commissioner's offices and the clubs themselves. While the teams keep their own books and do their own advertising, marketing, etc., their player payroll and contracts are already managed by the MLB clubs, and the clubs (because of the standardized player development contracts) have a pretty big hand in leases, etc.

The Braves now own most of their affiliates. The Rangers' ownership group just snatched up Myrtle Beach. The Orioles have the Ripkens and other people close to the community with ties to most of their own affiliates. The trend is already in motion. Teams are trying to get closer geographically, and the Braves are a prime example of what other teams are likely to continue doing.

I may have been overly ambitious within the "5 to 10 years" statement," but rest assured this is likely to turn out just like every other industry in our corporate society is going. More big businesses snatching up smaller businesses that provide a segment of their operations.

[redsof72]

Your points are well thought out and I will address a few of them.

In terms of the trend you note in which Major League clubs are buying their affiliates at an increasing rate, it is not happening. The Braves are the one club that has kept their affiliates all along. They never unloaded them in the first place and they still have them. They have always owned Richmond/Gwinnett, Greenville/Mississippi, and Rome. They are the last of a dying breed in that regard. I believe there were some special circumstances related to the Rangers purchase of Myrtle Beach (Rangers owner had deep ties to the community and wanted the team there). The team was not purchased to help with player development. Ripken has had his ownership group for years and bought teams, but it is not connected to the Orioles. It's Ripken's ownership group. Same with Nolan Ryan, who has owned Round Rock and some other clubs way before he took a front office job with the Rangers. There is no trend here of big league clubs buying teams.

Most major league clubs just are not that interested in running minor league teams. Your comment that the operations of the teams have become elementary is way off base. The Dayton team has more than 40 full-time, year-round employees in marketing, sales, customer service, groundskeeping, ticket sales, public relations, even web site design. That doesn't even include concessions and merchandise. On top of that, they probably have another 400 or so seasonal employees. It is a huge operation and they have been highly successful for a reason. They know their business and they run it efficiently. Even Steinbrenner never cared about buying his teams. It was just not worth the time required to run them.

To your logical point of big league clubs buying teams to make money, that would seem to make sense at first glance. Aggressive companies buy profitable enterprises to increase their revenue streams. But in this case, it is not a valid argument for one simple reason: There is a novelty factor that comes along with being an owner of one of the approximately 110 privately-owned minor league teams in the United States. That novelty factor has driven up the purchase prices of those teams so high in the last 10 years that no sane businessman would buy one with the hope of generating a return on his investment. They are no longer profitable to NEW buyers. They have become toys for the rich. You have teams turning very modest annual profits selling for $6-8 million to some millionaire who just wants a team. The debt service on that purchase is going to eat up your whole profit for the year. Teams are profitable if you bought them pre-2000 before the sales prices went off the charts. And there are many teams that just don't draw enough to even dream of buying them to turn a profit (see the California League).

The major league teams do own their GCL and AZL affiliates, but that is only because these teams are non-revenue operations. They do not charge admission to the games. There is nothing to attract a businessman to take over the team. They are necessary expenses to the big league clubs. If anything, you might see those leagues fold some day if the big league clubs decide that they can do without them. That is a much more likely scenario than big league clubs buying all their affiliates.

Ok, so you are not convinced? Say the Reds buy Dayton. Castellini has to shell out probably $17-18 million to buy the team. He'll never turn the profit to get a return on that investment. From a business perspective, he's better off putting the money under his pillow. Then, he's gotta take on a staff of 40+ full-time people and operate the company and try to do it at least as well as Mandalay did or his profitability level will go down even farther, even though he really doesn't know much about running a minor league baseball club. He's got all kind of new headaches he never had before, like maintaining the facility, dealing with the league office, etc. etc. etc.

And why would he want to do that again?

That's why you don't see major league clubs operating teams anymore.

[Brutus]

Your points are well thought out and I will address a few of them.

I'll take it one at a time to try and tackle your responses...


In terms of the trend you note in which Major League clubs are buying their affiliates at an increasing rate, it is not happening. The Braves are the one club that has kept their affiliates all along. They never unloaded them in the first place and they still have them. They have always owned Richmond/Gwinnett, Greenville/Mississippi, and Rome. They are the last of a dying breed in that regard. I believe there were some special circumstances related to the Rangers purchase of Myrtle Beach (Rangers owner had deep ties to the community and wanted the team there). The team was not purchased to help with player development. Ripken has had his ownership group for years and bought teams, but it is not connected to the Orioles. It's Ripken's ownership group. Same with Nolan Ryan, who has owned Round Rock and some other clubs way before he took a front office job with the Rangers. There is no trend here of big league clubs buying teams.

I think it's a sign of the times, however. I believe there is a philosophical and fundamental realization by baseball folks (not just marketing people) that the minor leagues are profitable and worth the time to integrate into the system.


Most major league clubs just are not that interested in running minor league teams. Your comment that the operations of the teams have become elementary is way off base. The Dayton team has more than 40 full-time, year-round employees in marketing, sales, customer service, groundskeeping, ticket sales, public relations, even web site design. That doesn't even include concessions and merchandise. On top of that, they probably have another 400 or so seasonal employees. It is a huge operation and they have been highly successful for a reason. They know their business and they run it efficiently. Even Steinbrenner never cared about buying his teams. It was just not worth the time required to run them.

First, I'm not trying to detract from your point, but Minor League baseball runs the league websites. Any customization is mostly cosmetic, and is only borne from a template that is used unilaterally across baseball.

Dayton does do a great job. However, they're also one of the 10-most profitable minor league clubs in the minor leagues, according to Forbes. While it's a big operation, clubs can hire people to continue those operations as they're done now. To make profits, you have to hire talent. That's simply a fact of life and one that ownership understands.

As far as Steinbrenner, I think that was most certainly true at the time, but it was also before the realization these clubs could turn a profit as they have. Steinbrenner didn't shy off a good investment because of needing to run it. All investments require work and require hands-on management.


To your logical point of big league clubs buying teams to make money, that would seem to make sense at first glance. Aggressive companies buy profitable enterprises to increase their revenue streams. But in this case, it is not a valid argument for one simple reason: There is a novelty factor that comes along with being an owner of one of the approximately 110 privately-owned minor league teams in the United States. That novelty factor has driven up the purchase prices of those teams so high in the last 10 years that no sane businessman would buy one with the hope of generating a return on his investment. They are no longer profitable to NEW buyers. They have become toys for the rich. You have teams turning very modest annual profits selling for $6-8 million to some millionaire who just wants a team. The debt service on that purchase is going to eat up your whole profit for the year. Teams are profitable if you bought them pre-2000 before the sales prices went off the charts. And there are many teams that just don't draw enough to even dream of buying them to turn a profit (see the California League).

This is where I disagree wholeheartedly. While I completely concur there is a novelty to owning a baseball team, they're not purchasing clubs just for the novelty. They're also doing it because they're turning profits.

A 2008 Forbes study showed that the top 20 baseball teams in the minors were worth an average of $20-$21 million in value. But the kicker, is despite a revenue sharing agreement with Major League clubs that stipulate a designated percentage of ticket sales (less lease payments for the ballpark) go to the clubs, those same teams are averaging more than $3 million in operating profit a year. Those novelties are making money.

I'd argue that 90% of the clubs are turning a profit. Most in the million range, but given the investment dollars and values of the club, I'd say that's still a profitable business for those owners. Not a get rich quick scheme, but nonetheless worth the investment when you weigh the novelty aspect.


The major league teams do own their GCL and AZL affiliates, but that is only because these teams are non-revenue operations. They do not charge admission to the games. There is nothing to attract a businessman to take over the team. They are necessary expenses to the big league clubs. If anything, you might see those leagues fold some day if the big league clubs decide that they can do without them. That is a much more likely scenario than big league clubs buying all their affiliates.

Ok, so you are not convinced? Say the Reds buy Dayton. Castellini has to shell out probably $17-18 million to buy the team. He'll never turn the profit to get a return on that investment. From a business perspective, he's better off putting the money under his pillow. Then, he's gotta take on a staff of 40+ full-time people and operate the company and try to do it at least as well as Mandalay did or his profitability level will go down even farther, even though he really doesn't know much about running a minor league baseball club. He's got all kind of new headaches he never had before, like maintaining the facility, dealing with the league office, etc. etc. etc.

And why would he want to do that again?

That's why you don't see major league clubs operating teams anymore.

A prospective club could get a return on an investment of $17-$18 million in about 5-7 years, if the Forbes numbers are to be believed. After all, if an average operating profit of a club is around $3 million, then they're turning closer to $4 million before payment into the Major League baseball central fund. I don't think a 5-7 year investment is at all something that ownership would mind.

Beyond the dollars and (sense) is a branding, loyalty and control aspect that come into play. You can establish a long term connection, have more influence over the ballpark and create a bigger fan base within the community. Especially if your location is one in your own territory.

I just don't think an owner of a Major League club is going to be totally clueless of how to run a minor league franchise. You're saying they're capable of running an organization with 120-200 year-long employees, plus an additional 20-40 full-time scouts and then all the player development people would worry about how to run an operation of 40 people? I just don't buy that. These owners have massive egos and deep pockets... if the novelty exists, then you better believe many of them would be interested in the concept of owning the entire organization.

Like you said... the first time around, the minor league teams were run as developmental entities and nothing more. The clubs relinquished control because there was no money in it, and they were focused on being baseball people and not businessmen.

Since then, much has changed. Baseball clubs are gobbling up their own TV networks, newspapers, even soccer clubs. It has now been established that there is in fact some money in it. Maybe not a ton in all cases, but enough that it's worth a club's time and money to pursue.

[redsof72]

You are obviously an intelligent person who pays attention, and I will give you a lot of credit for that. But you are way off base on this. We can agree to disagree and let this one go.

I have been involved in franchise negotiations and sales with teams in A, AA, and AAA. The idea that 90 percent of minor league teams turn a profit is way, way off. A recent article in Sports Business Journal said, "About half of the 176 affiliated minor league clubs historically lose money." The link to that article is http://www.saintsbaseball.com/mobile/news/?article_id=1313.

And most of those that do turn a profit net $200,000 or less per year. Yet the teams are selling for anywhere from $6 million for a Single-A club to $24 million for a Triple-A club. The novelty factor is a HUGE factor. How do you explain, for example, South Bend, a team that was losing money in large amounts year after year, selling for $6.5 million? That's just crazy, but that was the market price because of the novelty factor.

You buy Dayton for $17 million and your annual profit is never going to cover the debt service. You are going to be falling farther and farther behind every year. A story in CFO.com in 2003 said, "The success of the minors has significantly raised the capital requirements for acquiring a team...In fact, throughout the affiliated Minor Leagues, debt service costs have risen 51 percent over the last three fiscal years." It has gotten worse since the article was written. The link to the article is http://www.cfo.com/printable/article.cfm/3004004?f=options

What this means is, the acquisition cost of the teams is too high to make money. The major league clubs are certainly aware of this.

Bottom line: The Arizona Diamondbacks could have bought South Bend for the $6.5 million that the previous owner, Alan Levin, sold the team for, and they had no interest in that. The owner of the Triple-A Portland franchise in the PCL has been desperate for a buyer for a couple of years (he apparently has finally found someone who is moving the club to Tucson), yet no major league club was ever even rumored as a potential buyer. The Hagerstown team, a team that would have been as cheap to acquire as any in minor league baseball, was just sold and no major league club was in the mix. The Oklahoma City team (great ballpark, great market) was just sold and no major league team surfaced. The West Tenn team was for sale for years. Huntsville has been available for the right price. Even the minor league owners that want to sell their teams are not selling to MLB clubs. What about all the other minor league owners that don't necessarily want to sell? Are you predicting those teams are all going to be sold to MLB teams too? It is just not happening.

I do respect the fact that you have brought intelligent thoughts to the discussion and many of your conclusions seem quite logical, but your building blocks for your assumptions are off target.

[Brutus]

You are obviously an intelligent person who pays attention, and I will give you a lot of credit for that. But you are way off base on this. We can agree to disagree and let this one go.

I have been involved in franchise negotiations and sales with teams in A, AA, and AAA. The idea that 90 percent of minor league teams turn a profit is way, way off. A recent article in Sports Business Journal said, "About half of the 176 affiliated minor league clubs historically lose money." The link to that article is http://www.saintsbaseball.com/mobile/news/?article_id=1313.

Interesting. Now here is my first thought: I'd love to see a study that compares/contrast those teams that are making money to those that aren't, and how that correlates to proximity to the big league club and continuity with the affiliate relationship, and how long the team has been with their Major League counterparts. My hunch is that if things were done as I suggest, you would see most of these teams profitable.


And most of those that do turn a profit net $200,000 or less per year. Yet the teams are selling for anywhere from $6 million for a Single-A club to $24 million for a Triple-A club. The novelty factor is a HUGE factor. How do you explain, for example, South Bend, a team that was losing money in large amounts year after year, selling for $6.5 million? That's just crazy, but that was the market price because of the novelty factor.

I don't want to insinuate there aren't some owners that just want to own a baseball team as a hobby. That's actually how it used to go with the Major Leagues, until revenue soared and multi-billion dollar corporations figured out how much money was available in the industry. If a team sells for $6 million and isn't clearing much over $200k, then sure, that's not a wise investment short of something to increase the value or equity thereafter.


You buy Dayton for $17 million and your annual profit is never going to cover the debt service. You are going to be falling farther and farther behind every year. A story in CFO.com in 2003 said, "The success of the minors has significantly raised the capital requirements for acquiring a team...In fact, throughout the affiliated Minor Leagues, debt service costs have risen 51 percent over the last three fiscal years." It has gotten worse since the article was written. The link to the article is http://www.cfo.com/printable/article.cfm/3004004?f=options

What this means is, the acquisition cost of the teams is too high to make money. The major league clubs are certainly aware of this.

I appreciate you linking that article. My concern here is that it is from 2003. By everyone's admission, minor league baseball was in the midst of a rapid fire debut of new ballparks--not all of which were exclusively public subsidized. So naturally, it goes without saying that during that period of time, it's very possible the rise in debt service is directly tied to costs of private investments to build these shiny-new parks.

In the macro, I get where you're coming from. As mentioned above, a $6 million investment on a club turning a profit at or below $200k annually is simply not a wise investment. But in the micro, there are many clubs (like Dayton) that a $16-17 million purchase would be worth it, under the assumption they're turning over $3 mil a year. Mandalay is a prime example of this, because they're not getting involved in the business purely for the novelty, but they're a sound organization that is smart about investing. It's not like they're out plucking every other minor league team, which probably corroborates some of what you're saying (that not all teams are worth the money involved), but it also shows there are some clubs that are in fact worth the investment.


Bottom line: The Arizona Diamondbacks could have bought South Bend for the $6.5 million that the previous owner, Alan Levin, sold the team for, and they had no interest in that. The owner of the Triple-A Portland franchise in the PCL has been desperate for a buyer for a couple of years (he apparently has finally found someone who is moving the club to Tucson), yet no major league club was ever even rumored as a potential buyer. The Hagerstown team, a team that would have been as cheap to acquire as any in minor league baseball, was just sold and no major league club was in the mix. The Oklahoma City team (great ballpark, great market) was just sold and no major league team surfaced. The West Tenn team was for sale for years. Huntsville has been available for the right price. Even the minor league owners that want to sell their teams are not selling to MLB clubs. What about all the other minor league owners that don't necessarily want to sell? Are you predicting those teams are all going to be sold to MLB teams too? It is just not happening.

I do respect the fact that you have brought intelligent thoughts to the discussion and many of your conclusions seem quite logical, but your building blocks for your assumptions are off target.

I also appreciate the discussion. I enjoy talking about baseball and the business of such. Clearly, your knowledge shows you are involved or have been involved, and I appreciate your shedding additional light on the subject. As you said, we'll have to agree to disagree on some of the minor points, but I am glad you have brought some additional info to the forefront.

I guess my ultimate belief is this: where not all investments would be wise as they are, I truly believe if the affiliate shuffle become a fully functional geographical structure, where clubs are purchased by the MLB franchises and operated all within their own geographical territory, I do believe it would be worth the money in the long run. I think the individual clubs would have continuity, natural interest in going out to see the prospects of the clubs as well as a branding and perfect marketing engine.

Of course, I recognize there are some challenges to this concept.

No. 1, the current league structure is an obstacle as within each classification, it's not perfectly feasible to move teams within geographical boundaries. If the Brewers want to purchase a team within the Carolina League, for example, with the idea of moving it to the great lakes region, how does that impact the Carolina League and where do they play? Obviously this is a huge problem.

No. 2, as an additional obstacle to my first point, even if they find a league or re-organize the league structure, a city that would be the new destination may not already have a current ballpark, and thus, it relies on getting one built. Not every city would do that, and if it costs additional investments from ownership to get it done, the money might not be worth it even if the new market would be likely to provide a tremendous attendance boost.

So yeah, I guess I'm saying that I see a radical shift coming in the future, but not because of how things are operated now, but because I see the parent franchises being interested in getting back to geographical roots, as it would cut down on travel costs of assignments and roving instructional teachers. If the Reds could have their affiliates located in Louisville, Richmond (hypothetically), Bowling Green (another hypothetical) and Dayton, how much do you suppose a club could save on the cost of assigning a player back and forth between classifications, not to mention bumped attendance in AA and A-advanced markets where suddenly, Reds fans can go see their favorite prospects in all communities.

I'm not saying it's going to happen overnight or even easily, but it's my belief we're going to ultimately start in that direction.

[muddie]

Speaking of next year, the Mudcats have released their 2011 schedule. I know all you guys are planning to get into town for a couple of games so this should help you in your planning.

http://carolina.mudcats.milb.com/index.jsp?sid=t249

[Slyder]

Baseball is still a very cash reliant entertainment. Yes that is trending more toward plastic but I would say its still 85-90% cash, there's ways to manuever the books to make them read anywhich way someone wants so I don't believe fully that most are losing money. You have to be willing to put forth the effort in terms of the promotions/events to really get people into the park.

This is just a bit of info for this. I heard a lot about Lake County who moved from the So. Atlantic League to the Midwest League this year.

You buy the team.

(I'm making up the franchise)
- Lets assume you want to move a club from Upper Peninsula, Michigan to Greenville, NC.
-The owners would decide they no longer feel it profitable to be in the Midwest League because being in Greenville now you would be looking at ridiculous travel, so in the league bylaws there is a buyout amount that you have to pay to the league.
-Then you pay into membership into the South Atlantic League. Some leagues require you to have another team to join you in order to keep even leagues. So you got to find someone who wants to move elsewhere or someone out there to apply with you to the SAL.

If youre looking at going from one division to another.

-You have to pay the exit fee.
-You have to find a franchise willing to take your spot said division because MLB requires 30 teams at each level above a ball.
-You then have to apply for membership into a league.

From what I have heard it is very, very, very cost restrictive to change much.

[camisadelgolf]

You mean 30 teams?

[Slyder]

You mean 30 teams?

Fixed. Missed the 0 and didnt catch it upon proofread.

[cinreds21]

WOOOOO, the Double-A All-Star game isn't in July.

[cinreds21]

WOoo and a new team. This is crazy.

The West Tenn Diamond Jax is now the Jackson Generals.