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Pujols4MVP
08-14-2010, 06:16 PM
I am curious as to what drives the hate for Carp. Is it:

1) comments made about the baseballs?
2) his actions in the brawl?
3) a hate/respect thing?

I honestly would like some insight into this. For mw personally, I cant see it being anything other than the third choice for any reasonable fan. For me, there is not one player I "hate" on the Reds. I am actually a huge fan of a couple of your players(Rolen, and Edmonds) for obvious reasons. Thanks for any insight.

Sean_CaseyRules
08-14-2010, 06:22 PM
Mostly, I hate Carpenter because of his comments he makes. He seems like he is an arrogant jerk. He is seemingly always complaining about something, (his own teammates, other players on other teams, umpires, etc.)

That's just what I remember when Carpenter comes to town. Although he is a VERY VERY good pitcher, I just hate everything else that comes with him.

(I tried to keep that as well-mannered as I could)

rolenmvp
08-14-2010, 06:23 PM
I agree. he has a terrible attitude.

Pujols4MVP
08-14-2010, 06:46 PM
Mostly, I hate Carpenter because of his comments he makes. He seems like he is an arrogant jerk. He is seemingly always complaining about something, (his own teammates, other players on other teams, umpires, etc.)

That's just what I remember when Carpenter comes to town. Although he is a VERY VERY good pitcher, I just hate everything else that comes with him.

(I tried to keep that as well-mannered as I could)
And I greatly appreciate the response. The only reason I came here was some good insightful conversation with some fans on the other side.

Carp is a fiery guy. At times, her certainly lets it get the best of him. He does a great job of channeling the fire into motivation of pitch as well as he does.

With that said, I can see how his on field actions can lead some to think that he isn't a great guy, but its quite the contrary off the field. He is a leader within the clubhouse as he is within the city as well.

I must say that I am jealous of you all having th luxury of seeing rolen day in and day out. That guy is a class act. Pujols aside, He is hands down my favorite. I love his Attitude and work ethic. He plays a hard bossed game with out and kind of antics. The greatest defensive third baseman I have har the plasure of watching. You are all lucky to have him manning your hot corner.

PMand JM
08-14-2010, 06:49 PM
It definitely isn't a hate/respect thing. He is a whiney overated pitcher who gets every break possible from the umps. I wouldn't want him for a bag of balls- CANCER!

Señor Rojo
08-14-2010, 06:54 PM
Phillips's comments were in regards to complaints the Cardinals have filed when they've played at the Reds stadium in the past. There have been complaints about the baseballs not being fine enough and the height of the pitcher mound.

I think that Carpenter took these comments personally hence him running out of the dugout and instigating the second part of the fight. Yes, he did rile everyone up for that second part. I was also upset by his comments after the game. He played the victim and tried to put everything on the Reds when the Cardinals really could have laughed at the comments. The Reds are a legitimate threat this season and it showed by the Cardinals taking Phillips's comments to heart.

I respect the love of baseball people have in St. Louis. I lived in the city for a year and it was something to see 30,000+ fans at a cold baseball game on a Wednesday night. However, I think that Phillips (and Reds fans in general) are tired of seeing the Cardinals on top of the division and they feel like its their time to lead it. Carpenter is just a target in this aggression, but his actions on the field and more so his comments after games are why he is the target. You won't see anyone on this board attacking Wainwright and its no coincidence as to why.

HalMorrisRules
08-14-2010, 06:56 PM
With that said, I can see how his on field actions can lead some to think that he isn't a great guy, but its quite the contrary off the field

The only thing that is worthy of discussion on this or any other baseball board are his on field actions. I don't care if he is the greatest guy in the world, on the field and in the media he is a whiner and comes across as a jerk who expects like he shouldnt ever have to endure any hardships. I'm sure it is a product of always winning and expecting to win but that just makes him a sore loser and complains a bit too much about the little things. Like non-rubbed baseballs that are under the purview of the umpires, not the Reds. Yeah stuff like that is behind the dislike. I dont hate anyone.

Pujols4MVP
08-14-2010, 07:11 PM
It definitely isn't a hate/respect thing. He is a whiney overated pitcher who gets every break possible from the umps. I wouldn't want him for a bag of balls- CANCER!

Overrated?! Lets take a look at his last four full seasons with the cards.
21 wins 2.83 era - cy young
15 wins 3.09 era - 3rd in cy voting
17 wins 2.24 era - 2nd in cy voting
13 wins 2.95 era - Month and a half left

I wish I had a whole rotation of overrated players of his caliber. And the reason the cards have kept him around for so long, and is considered a clubhouse leader is because he IS a cancer.

An analysis like this would be like me coming here and calling votto overrated. I mean clearly, a guy whose best year was 25 homers and 84 RBI is playing over gos head right? Laughable. Votto can straight rake. He guy will be an MVP candidate for years to come. If the cards and reds both make the playoffs this year, and votto and pujols stay on their current pace, it will be fun to see who is given the award.

CySeymour
08-14-2010, 07:14 PM
It definitely isn't a hate/respect thing. He is a whiney overated pitcher who gets every break possible from the umps. I wouldn't want him for a bag of balls- CANCER!

Overrated? I don't like Carp either, but I wouldn't take it that far.

The guy is a heck of a pitcher, no question...but is attitude rubs me the wrong way.

Pujols4MVP
08-14-2010, 07:24 PM
The only thing that is worthy of discussion on this or any other baseball board are his on field actions. I don't care if he is the greatest guy in the world, on the field and in the media he is a whiner and comes across as a jerk who expects like he shouldnt ever have to endure any hardships. I'm sure it is a product of always winning and expecting to win but that just makes him a sore loser and complains a bit too much about the little things. Like non-rubbed baseballs that are under the purview of the umpires, not the Reds. Yeah stuff like that is behind the dislike. I dont hate anyone.

I can definitely see where his act would tire with reds fans and to be honest, it grows old with some cards fans. I just don't get why people cool him a tool, a *****, and that they hate him. To me, that is over the top.

I am a die hard cards fan and think BP's comments are laughable, I still respect the hell out of his skills and would love a player of his caliber without his mouth. I do enjoy the result of his barking as it seems he has started a fun rivalry not only amongst the teams, but their fans.

Boston Red
08-14-2010, 07:36 PM
I'm sure Carpenter has something to complain about today after losing to the freaking Cubs of all teams.

ThornWithin81
08-14-2010, 08:09 PM
Passionate players are great. I love Jonny Gomes' passion for the game.

Carpenter is passionate about winning, but the biproduct of that is his attitude. When things go wrong, someone else is to blame. He shouts, he stares, he pulls players aside to tell them "how it is" - he's generally just a bad sport when's out on the Diamond.

That's how I see it.

DocRed
08-14-2010, 08:17 PM
I'm sure Carpenter has something to complain about today after losing to the freaking Cubs of all teams.

I missed the game..how many times did he yell at Ryan or throw temper tantrums in the dugout?

mattfeet
08-14-2010, 08:28 PM
Passionate players are great. I love Jonny Gomes' passion for the game.

Carpenter is passionate about winning, but the biproduct of that is his attitude. When things go wrong, someone else is to blame. He shouts, he stares, he pulls players aside to tell them "how it is" - he's generally just a bad sport when's out on the Diamond.

That's how I see it.

This is how I see it as well. Carp is an OUTSTANDING pitcher, one of the best hands down. However, his intensity often times fuels the wrong emotions, IMO.

The fact that Carp often (seemingly) blames others for his lackluster, albeit rare, pitching, is what grinds my gears.

-Matt

blark11
08-14-2010, 08:53 PM
35 year old men shouldn't act the way he does.

webbbj
08-14-2010, 09:26 PM
i dont really hate any player. i want the cards to do poorly b/c it helps the reds. but i would love to have a pitcher of carpenters calibre on the reds.

Betterread
08-14-2010, 09:51 PM
Carp is a fiery guy. At times, her certainly lets it get the best of him. He does a great job of channeling the fire into motivation of pitch as well as he does.



Fiery? Is that what he was today against the Cubs?
He is the Cards talisman, no more no less.
If Carpenter shows the pathetic effort he did did today oh maybe 4-5 more starts this year, it will make me very happy. That's because the Cards think he walks on water (escept for Pujols). So when he is mediocre, they are affected, negatively.
See - Pujols is class, no question.
Carpenter dreams he is, and demands his teammates fall into line.
But he isn't. He's 35 and has won more than 18 games in a year exactly once. That's far from greatness.

Kingspoint
08-14-2010, 09:54 PM
Carp are known as the garbage collectors of the waters. They are bottom feeders and eat anything that is on the bottom of a body of water. If you don't know how to clean them properly thay taste like mud. They have a mud vein that must be removed from their sides in order for them to taste better.

Kiko
08-14-2010, 10:23 PM
arrogant crybaby....take his MLB uniform off and would you be praising the guy?

jules2
08-14-2010, 10:23 PM
This is how I see it as well. Carp is an OUTSTANDING pitcher, one of the best hands down. However, his intensity often times fuels the wrong emotions, IMO.

The fact that Carp often (seemingly) blames others for his lackluster, albeit rare, pitching, is what grinds my gears.

-Matt

Pretty much have to agree.
My memory sucks but it seems this year has been the worst. Way too short of a temper. And I don't see anything wrong with "Hey I had a bad game" but that's rarely his take. :( I didn't see today's game or have yet to hear today's comments, though.

redlegs2370
08-14-2010, 10:27 PM
Passionate players are great. I love Jonny Gomes' passion for the game.

Carpenter is passionate about winning, but the biproduct of that is his attitude. When things go wrong, someone else is to blame. He shouts, he stares, he pulls players aside to tell them "how it is" - he's generally just a bad sport when's out on the Diamond.

That's how I see it.

Phillips and Cueto have passion too but everyone attacks them. Cueto reminds me a lot of Pedro Martinez and I love it. Not afraid to pitch inside and he wears his emotion on his sleeve. Brandon reminds me of Reggie Miller and unfortunately sometimes it rubs the opponents and the opposing fans the wrong way because of his swagger or what he says. I remember Reggie calling out the fans of Indianapolis because everyone came to see Jordan. Reggie & MJ even dooked it out one game but Reggie didn't back down. The Pacers built around that spirit and made a great run for about a 7 year stretch and were as good as any team in the NBA.

Carpenter on the other hand is just a punk. He reminds me of the rich kid who's daddy gets him out of everything. MLB loves to protect their stars. I would give anything to know if they even test Pujlos for steroids. My guess is the don't.

Quatitos
08-14-2010, 10:51 PM
I can definitely see where his act would tire with reds fans and to be honest, it grows old with some cards fans. I just don't get why people cool him a tool, a *****, and that they hate him. To me, that is over the top.

I am a die hard cards fan and think BP's comments are laughable, I still respect the hell out of his skills and would love a player of his caliber without his mouth. I do enjoy the result of his barking as it seems he has started a fun rivalry not only amongst the teams, but their fans.



I think a big part of the reason people are so negative towards him has a lot to do with how he says his comments, not just what he has to say. He has a way when he talks to try and stress how classy or how much of a true ballplayer he is, and how others do not live up to his standard.

I would point to his comments about the supposedly slick balls on opening day (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100405&content_id=9092654&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb) and how he just has to mention how it could be chalked up to unprofessionalism of the people preparing the balls. It would be very easy to make his point without making an attack on the integrity of the people he is at odds with but he seems to do it a lot. This can also be seen in his comments about the cueto kicking (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5462236) and how he has to mention how Cueto's actions (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=300810117) were "unprofessional" (I don't think Cueto should have been kicking people but I can see why he started to do it, and I'm not trying to argue whether he was right to do it or not) yet he fails to admit that he was a big part of starting that second part of the "brawl." To opposing fans it screams that he fails to take any responsibility for when things go wrong and that its other people's fault and they are horrible people for it.

I am sure that Carpenter might admit to when he makes mistakes, but he tries to dodge responsibility for actions a lot more then other players, at least in my personal opinion and perspective. Like others have said you don't see other pitchers or most other players on the cardinals being as outspoken as him, most leave it up to Larussa to express problems they might have. This also comes to the fact that because he seems to be the second most outspoken Cardinal behind Larussa, that much of the hate for Larussa is passed on to Carpenter. Larussa rubs a lot of people the wrong way and its easy to understand why people do not like him, so a lot of Carpenter hate can come from this relationship as well.

ezluke
08-14-2010, 10:56 PM
I think he might be roiding...at least I hope he is. If he has this type of rage naturally than he has serious mental issues. I keep waiting to hear about him chasing kids on Halloween because his on-field antics remind me of Albert Belle.

Almost to a man the caught users got nailed after an injury and claimed it was for rehab purposes only..or too make babies;)...and Carp has had multiple issues with rage accompanied by multiple trips to the DL hmmmm

Pujols4MVP
08-14-2010, 10:59 PM
Phillips and Cueto have passion too but everyone attacks them. Cueto reminds me a lot of Pedro Martinez and I love it. Not afraid to pitch inside and he wears his emotion on his sleeve. Brandon reminds me of Reggie Miller and unfortunately sometimes it rubs the opponents and the opposing fans the wrong way because of his swagger or what he says. I remember Reggie calling out the fans of Indianapolis because everyone came to see Jordan. Reggie & MJ even dooked it out one game but Reggie didn't back down. The Pacers built around that spirit and made a great run for about a 7 year stretch and were as good as any team in the NBA.

Carpenter on the other hand is just a punk. He reminds me of the rich kid who's daddy gets him out of everything. MLB loves to protect their stars. I would give anything to know if they even test Pujlos for steroids. My guess is the don't.

This is a joke of a post. I am obviously a cards fan, but am clearly not trolling this forum. Just looking to have some good dialogue and get the perspective of opposing fans. Please don't come here and troll the thread.

With that said, I find it completely hypocritical to come here, and praise cueto(who went jackie chan on carp and larue) and Phillips( who made it a point to go out publically with has hatred for the cards) yet you see carp as the anti Christ and have the gaull to accuse the best player in the game of steroids on an weak claim. I guess that's what jealously creates.

captainmorgan07
08-14-2010, 11:01 PM
Your kidding right the guy might be the biggest complainer in sports today. Guy shows up his own teammates and then gives some line about he has to explain to his kid why scott rolen is attacking him. Gee chris maybe you should tell your son the nasty words you said to dusty to make rolen want to chuck you into the third row.

ezluke
08-14-2010, 11:06 PM
This is a joke of a post. I am obviously a cards fan, but am clearly not trolling this forum. Just looking to have some good dialogue and get the perspective of opposing fans. Please don't come here and troll the thread.

With that said, I find it completely hypocritical to come here, and praise cueto(who went jackie chan on carp and larue) and Phillips( who made it a point to go out publically with has hatred for the cards) yet you see carp as the anti Christ and have the gaull to accuse the best player in the game of steroids on an weak claim. I guess that's what jealously creates.

I know, i'm outraged as well...I cannot believe that a Reds fan on a Reds forum had the audacity to praise to two of the best players on the Reds...absolutely should not be tolerated and in the immortal words of the greatest everything of all time, Chris Carpenter totally unprofessional.

And oh yeah, it's not like Pujols/hgh hasn't been rumored before, the difference in his body from the time he was drafted until the time he made the bigs is reason enough to at least cast suspicion.

Pujols4MVP
08-14-2010, 11:09 PM
Quatitos, good post man. Very classy with some good points. I can definitely see where opposing fans could see that. And as a cards fan, it has been very noticeable this year that carp has been a bit more testy than years past. Again, thank you for the insight.

Pujols4MVP
08-14-2010, 11:13 PM
I know, i'm outraged as well...I cannot believe that a Reds fan on a Reds forum had the audacity to praise to two of the best players on the Reds...absolutely should not be tolerated and in the immortal words of the greatest everything of all time, Chris Carpenter totally unprofessional.

And oh yeah, it's not like Pujols/hgh hasn't been rumored before, the difference in his body from the time he was drafted until the time he made the bigs is reason enough to at least cast suspicion.

So seeing as how frank Thomas, and Griffey jr(both considered some of the few clean players during the steroid era)both got bigger as their careers went on means they weren't clean either right? Good post

757690
08-14-2010, 11:20 PM
This is a joke of a post. I am obviously a cards fan, but am clearly not trolling this forum. Just looking to have some good dialogue and get the perspective of opposing fans. Please don't come here and troll the thread.

With that said, I find it completely hypocritical to come here, and praise cueto(who went jackie chan on carp and larue) and Phillips( who made it a point to go out publically with has hatred for the cards) yet you see carp as the anti Christ and have the gaull to accuse the best player in the game of steroids on an weak claim. I guess that's what jealously creates.

First, I think this is a great thread. Thanks for starting it.

But I have to disagree with you here.

What Cueto did was indefensible in my mind, no matter his intentions. You can't kick in the middle of a brawl. And what Phillips said was dumb, he shouldn't have said it.

But what Carpenter does is far worse that what they did. He commits the Cardinal sin (no pun intended) to baseball fans. He blames others for his mistakes. That is why so many fans, and not just Reds fans, hate him. He is what Phillips said the Cardinals are, and has been for quite awhile. BTW, Phillip mistake was saying that all the Cardinals are that, which is not true. Just a select few, with Carpenter leading the pack.

You want to know why Carpenter is hated? Because it never is his fault. He not only doesn't take responsibility for his mistakes, he goes out of his way to blame others, or other things for them. People hate that, especially baseball fans.

The Cardinals had another great pitcher who was known for his temper. Bob Gibson. Gibson yelled at players, both his own, and on the other team, and bragged about how he tried to hit batters. But he always took responsibility for his mistakes. In fact, in his most famous season, when he had a 1.12 ERA, he also lost 9 games and didn't win 20, because his team didn't score many runs in the games he pitched. Yet you never heard him talk about it, or make excuses, or blame his teammates. Carpenter would have been whining all season long, and we never would have heard the end of it.

Gibson was a stand up guy. Carpenter is the opposite. He is a crybaby, and no one hates a crybaby more than baseball fans.

And about steroids and Carpenter. I don't think he used them, but Redszone is not the first nor the only place that has made this accusation.

It is not an absurd accusation. He was not that great, then he got hurt and now he's one of the best pitchers in baseball. It makes people ask questions. It really isn't anything new, even if it probably isn't true.

ezluke
08-14-2010, 11:22 PM
So seeing as how frank Thomas, and Griffey jr(both considered some of the few clean players during the steroid era)both got bigger as their careers went on means they weren't clean either right? Good post

Frank/Griff didn't go from being chubby to being on the cover of muscle and fitness magazine, In only a few short years..like Pujols. And Griffs head(minus the early afro/mullet) wasn't the size of a small planet..like Pujols'.

Frank was huge, and musclebound when he was drafted. If you wanna say he might have used before that, well he was playing football in the SEC for what was at the time arguably the dirtiest program in the country so go right ahead.

Griff came in with a little bit of a gut, and left with a little bigger of a gut. If thats what you mean by got bigger, than yeah he got bigger.

Of course that means I must've done roids as well, because i too got bigger from when I was 19 until I was 40.I don't trust any athletes anymore, but if I was gonna say one guy didn't use it would be Griff...i just don see him hitting the weights enough to do anything, even on roids.

757690
08-14-2010, 11:24 PM
So seeing as how frank Thomas, and Griffey jr(both considered some of the few clean players during the steroid era)both got bigger as their careers went on means they weren't clean either right? Good post

I doubt Pujols used HGH (which doesn't make you bigger, so it's a silly accusation.)

But just for clarity sake, Jr.'s body stayed lean and the same until he got old. How do we know that Griffey didn't use steroids? He sucked when he got older. :p:

ezluke
08-14-2010, 11:31 PM
I doubt Pujols used HGH (which doesn't make you bigger, so it's a silly accusation.)

But just for clarity sake, Jr.'s body stayed lean and the same until he got old. How do we know that Griffey didn't use steroids? He sucked when he got older. :p:

HGH doesn't make you bigger? Than why is it called human GROWTH hormone?

Supposedly even Bonds' hat size increased as he roid/hgh binged his way to the homerun record.

redlegs2370
08-14-2010, 11:33 PM
This is a joke of a post. I am obviously a cards fan, but am clearly not trolling this forum. Just looking to have some good dialogue and get the perspective of opposing fans. Please don't come here and troll the thread.

With that said, I find it completely hypocritical to come here, and praise cueto(who went jackie chan on carp and larue) and Phillips( who made it a point to go out publically with has hatred for the cards) yet you see carp as the anti Christ and have the gaull to accuse the best player in the game of steroids on an weak claim. I guess that's what jealously creates.

Troll the thread? What are you talking about? I have been a member of this site since 2002. I am a die hard Reds fan. Weak claim? I'm not the only one who thinks that Pujols could be on the juice. I said could be. It is a well known fact that TLR teams have been linked to roid use back to the 80's.

Jackie Chan? Your hilarious. Maybe Cueto and Phillips should take over for Chan and Chris Tucker and make Rush Hour 4. Taking out Cardinal players one by one until Cardinal nation is finished.(I hope you can understand this is sarcasm and not excuse me of trolling or delusional post)

CincyReds2003
08-14-2010, 11:40 PM
Why the hate for Carpenter??? Hmm...what rhymes with hick??

CySeymour
08-14-2010, 11:40 PM
Come on guys. Speculating about who used what just to get a rise at someone who roots for the Cards ain't cool. Let's stick to facts.

GIDP
08-14-2010, 11:44 PM
Carpenter is just too professional for us to understand.

757690
08-14-2010, 11:55 PM
HGH doesn't make you bigger? Than why is it called human GROWTH hormone?

Supposedly even Bonds' hat size increased as he roid/hgh binged his way to the homerun record.

Just some education on PED's.

HGH makes you leaner, quicker and better fit. It does not make you noticeably bigger, especially if you are an athlete. HGH is what makes you grow when you are child and through puberty. HGH is why most people lose their baby fat and become more fit when they are going through puberty.

Steroids make you bigger. Hence Bonds. HGH is not a steroid.

cw0802
08-14-2010, 11:56 PM
Frank/Griff didn't go from being chubby to being on the cover of muscle and fitness magazine, In only a few short years..like Pujols. And Griffs head(minus the early afro/mullet) wasn't the size of a small planet..like Pujols'.

Frank was huge, and musclebound when he was drafted. If you wanna say he might have used before that, well he was playing football in the SEC for what was at the time arguably the dirtiest program in the country so go right ahead.

Griff came in with a little bit of a gut, and left with a little bigger of a gut. If thats what you mean by got bigger, than yeah he got bigger.

Of course that means I must've done roids as well, because i too got bigger from when I was 19 until I was 40.I don't trust any athletes anymore, but if I was gonna say one guy didn't use it would be Griff...i just don see him hitting the weights enough to do anything, even on roids.

So in a few short years a player can't drop some weight and get himself in shape? Especially going from playing baseball at a junior college to playing for a professional organization?

ezluke
08-15-2010, 12:00 AM
Come on guys. Speculating about who used what just to get a rise at someone who roots for the Cards ain't cool. Let's stick to facts.

Unfortunately speculating about who may or may not have used during that era is never going to go away. The players who played from the late 80's to early this decade will forever be tainted..and they have no one to blame but themselves. Everyone moans about owners looking the other way, what about the teammates? Why didn't the clean guys demand that the union protect them by implementing drug testing? After all no one will remember who owned the A's while Conseco/McGwire were using. but guys like Griffey, Thome, Thomas and the other possibly clean ones will forever be linked to them, and their records will always be scrutinized moreso than others like them before and after the "steroid era"

ezluke
08-15-2010, 12:06 AM
So in a few short years a player can't drop some weight and get himself in shape? Especially going from playing baseball at a junior college to playing for a professional organization?


No it's definitely possible that Pujols hasn't used, but his body type, his otherworldly stats and the era in which he played..well, like it or not there has to at least be cause for some concern.

And one thing I have always wondered, and not just about the cards/Pujols, but how good are the weight training facilities in the minors? With the long bus trips do they have the time to really work-out consistently? What about training tables? Do they have access to the proper foods to fuel the training?

ezluke
08-15-2010, 12:08 AM
Just some education on PED's.

HGH makes you leaner, quicker and better fit. It does not make you noticeably bigger, especially if you are an athlete. HGH is what makes you grow when you are child and through puberty. HGH is why most people lose their baby fat and become more fit when they are going through puberty.

Steroids make you bigger. Hence Bonds. HGH is not a steroid.

Thanks for the info, i have had friends do roids, and never noticed their hat size growing...Bonds was one strange case all around.

cw0802
08-15-2010, 12:12 AM
As for Carp. Yes he is very intense...sure he may take it a little too far. He may be a jerk but he's our jerk. I'm sure the Reds fans have felt that way one time or another?

One thing i don't understand, is those who called Molina a "thug". I think i'm a fairly understanding guy...I mean...i understand your displeasure with Carp...that i get. But many said that Molina is a punk or a thug. I really don't get that. Can you guys explain that one to me? Other than this past altercation, i can't really think of another time Molina has been involved in anything? Shoot, neither of the two prime suspects could be found...neither Phillips nor Yadi were around.

cw0802
08-15-2010, 12:22 AM
No it's definitely possible that Pujols hasn't used, but his body type, his otherworldly stats and the era in which he played..well, like it or not there has to at least be cause for some concern.

And one thing I have always wondered, and not just about the cards/Pujols, but how good are the weight training facilities in the minors? With the long bus trips do they have the time to really work-out consistently? What about training tables? Do they have access to the proper foods to fuel the training?

All valid points. I'll admit the stats and his era would be a cause for concern...but i've watched him day in and day out since he arrived in the majors...i would never say his body type would be a cause for suspicion. I mean, over all he's just a big guy, but i wouldn't say he has the build of a gym rat or roid/hgh user.

cw0802
08-15-2010, 12:25 AM
Thanks for the info, i have had friends do roids, and never noticed their hat size growing...Bonds was one strange case all around.

Bonds' head didn't grow from roids...it grew from his incredible ego.

ezluke
08-15-2010, 12:46 AM
All valid points. I'll admit the stats and his era would be a cause for concern...but i've watched him day in and day out since he arrived in the majors...i would never say his body type would be a cause for suspicion. I mean, over all he's just a big guy, but i wouldn't say he has the build of a gym rat or roid/hgh user.

You don't get on the cover of the muscle mags by just being big, the man is BIG and ripped. But I bet if he was playing for another team you wouldn't feel as confident..but we can agree to disagree on this one. You wanna think the best and I don't blame you. I hope he didn't, but the sad part is we will never know for sure.

cw0802
08-15-2010, 01:10 AM
You don't get on the cover of the muscle mags by just being big, the man is BIG and ripped. But I bet if he was playing for another team you wouldn't feel as confident..but we can agree to disagree on this one. You wanna think the best and I don't blame you. I hope he didn't, but the sad part is we will never know for sure.

I'll disagree...he's not muscle bound and he's no more ripped than Rolen, Joe Mauer or Mark Texeria. Just a big guy all around. 6'3 230. Always has been that big.

Actually, i'm more of an optimist and would rather see the good than the bad. I didn't want to believe Palmero was on the list nor did i initially believe that A-Rod was on the list. I guess you could say I'm a true "innocent until proven guilty" type. Until a test says "positive" with Pujols' name...i'll defend him.

RedsFanInBama
08-15-2010, 01:50 AM
Why the insecure Cardinals fans? Does it really matter if we love or hate your pitcher? FWIW, I loved seeing him lose today.

urdun
08-15-2010, 02:57 AM
Passionate players are great. I love Jonny Gomes' passion for the game.

Carpenter is passionate about winning, but the biproduct of that for him is his attitude. When things go wrong, someone else is to blame. He shouts, he stares, he pulls players aside to tell them "how it is" - he's generally just a bad sport when's out on the Diamond.

That's how I see it.

uh huh, uh huh this about sums it up for me.

MikeThierry
08-15-2010, 08:57 AM
"HGH doesn't make you bigger? Than why is it called human GROWTH hormone? "

I urge you to seriously do some research on what HGH actually does for the human body. If you look at Pujols weight from the time he was drafted to now, it has changed very little. The fact is he has always been a big guy. In fact one of the reasons why he was picked in the 13th round was due to the fact that clubs were worried about his body type and how it would translate into playing in the big leagues.

Lets consider it if he is on something. He is still going to accomplish what nobody in baseball history has done. That is have 10 straight years of hitting over .300, 30hr, and 100 RBI's. Nobody even in the steroid era has done this. So even if Albert is all roided up like some of you claim, what he is doing in baseball should still not be overlooked.

As far as Carp goes, I can see why some people would think he is "whiny" or complains. However, I think its wrong to take a couple of incidents and saying that's how he is in the club house or how he is all the time. For example, the whole ball incident has precedent. John Smoltz, a year before Carp made the statements he did, was pitching against the Reds and continually threw the balls away because he felt they were too slick. John Smoltz is one of the classiest guys in baseball and I don't think he would do that to start something with the Reds. When Carp made those comments, it was after a win so he wasn't making those comments out of anger. I think there was some legitimacy to the claims that Carp made.

Carpenter is far from a cancer in the club house. He is one of the more respected guys. When guys are doing their BP sessions, he is always down there trying to help them in spotting what certain pitchers are doing wrong. For example, Carp was the person who noticed that Smoltz was tipping his pitches and he helped correct his mechanics, not Dave Duncan. I really think this whole Carp dislike is due to the fact that Reds fans don't see him on a regular basis. It would be like me forming an opinion on Cueto by just seeing that brawl on Tuesday. It would not make any sense to do so.

Swampturkey
08-15-2010, 11:49 AM
Actually, i'm more of an optimist and would rather see the good than the bad. I didn't want to believe Palmero was on the list nor did i initially believe that A-Rod was on the list. I guess you could say I'm a true "innocent until proven guilty" type. Until a test says "positive" with Pujols' name...i'll defend him.

Agreed. Hey, I was nieve enough to think McGwire was innocent, even after his, "I'm not here to talk about the past" testimony. It wasn't until about 2007 that I really started to doubt him. I guess it was more wishful thinking because I didn't want what I whitnessed in 1998 to be tarnished.

As for Pujols, people doubt him just because he's having an amazing career, but look at the facts. There is not one shred of evidence against him. He has stated on numerous occassions that he is tested 2 or 3 times a year and has been for many years. Being a HUGE Christian, he says he fears God too much to ever do anything like take PEDs. He also said that he would give back every cent he has ever made in baseball if ever found in possession of PEDs. Says he doesn't worry because it won't happen as he will never do them.

Until he gives me a reason not to believe him, I will believe him.

Rockermann
08-15-2010, 11:59 AM
Troy E. Renck of the Denver Post seems to be feeling a bit of the "hate" also.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_15782562

DocRed
08-15-2010, 12:09 PM
Troy E. Renck of the Denver Post seems to be feeling a bit of the "hate" also.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_15782562

Haha good find. Some funny quotes from the article...

"He's not only the smartest player ever, but I am pretty sure you have to know a secret handshake just to say hello to him."

"He knows everything about everything. Dare I say it — he's become the next Curt Schilling."

ezluke
08-15-2010, 12:16 PM
"HGH doesn't make you bigger? Than why is it called human GROWTH hormone? "

I urge you to seriously do some research on what HGH actually does for the human body. If you look at Pujols weight from the time he was drafted to now, it has changed very little. The fact is he has always been a big guy. In fact one of the reasons why he was picked in the 13th round was due to the fact that clubs were worried about his body type and how it would translate into playing in the big leagues.

Lets consider it if he is on something. He is still going to accomplish what nobody in baseball history has done. That is have 10 straight years of hitting over .300, 30hr, and 100 RBI's. Nobody even in the steroid era has done this. So even if Albert is all roided up like some of you claim, what he is doing in baseball should still not be overlooked.


As far as Carp goes, I can see why some people would think he is "whiny" or complains. However, I think its wrong to take a couple of incidents and saying that's how he is in the club house or how he is all the time. For example, the whole ball incident has precedent. John Smoltz, a year before Carp made the statements he did, was pitching against the Reds and continually threw the balls away because he felt they were too slick. John Smoltz is one of the classiest guys in baseball and I don't think he would do that to start something with the Reds. When Carp made those comments, it was after a win so he wasn't making those comments out of anger. I think there was some legitimacy to the claims that Carp made.

Carpenter is far from a cancer in the club house. He is one of the more respected guys. When guys are doing their BP sessions, he is always down there trying to help them in spotting what certain pitchers are doing wrong. For example, Carp was the person who noticed that Smoltz was tipping his pitches and he helped correct his mechanics, not Dave Duncan. I really think this whole Carp dislike is due to the fact that Reds fans don't see him on a regular basis. It would be like me forming an opinion on Cueto by just seeing that brawl on Tuesday. It would not make any sense to do so.

If my memory is correct the problem with Pujols body initially was that he was kind of a chubby, big guy but overweight, not in good shape, however you wanna put it...now he is on the cover of muscle and fitness mags. (And with all due respect to your cardinal counterpart i'm betting Rolen never makes the cover of any fitness mag.) Now if the other poster is correct in that hgh doesn't make you bigger, just leaner and fitter..isn't that exactly what happened to his body after he was drafted...from big/flabby to lean/muscular?

Again I'm not saying he did but I don't see why he gets a pass from the scrutiny....if he was on another team and he was caught would you be shocked?

jimbo
08-15-2010, 12:24 PM
Troy E. Renck of the Denver Post seems to be feeling a bit of the "hate" also.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_15782562

That column says it all. Just shows that it's not only people associated with the Reds who thinks that Carpenter is a complete tool.

Joseph
08-15-2010, 12:27 PM
Just a friendly reminder from the Mod Squad here...

Discussions are great, name calling is NOT.

Have the discussion, but leave the name calling out of it. That includes things like cry babies, wimps, nancys etc. There is nothing gained in a civil discussion by referring to your fellow posters as idiots or worse.

Drop it.

ezluke
08-15-2010, 12:33 PM
I'll disagree...he's not muscle bound and he's no more ripped than Rolen, Joe Mauer or Mark Texeria. Just a big guy all around. 6'3 230. Always has been that big.

Actually, i'm more of an optimist and would rather see the good than the bad. I didn't want to believe Palmero was on the list nor did i initially believe that A-Rod was on the list. I guess you could say I'm a true "innocent until proven guilty" type. Until a test says "positive" with Pujols' name...i'll defend him.

Please go back and look at the Pujols muscle and fitness mag cover from 2007..and then tell me there is any way in heck that Rolen or Texeira make that cover. If you don't consider him musclebound than you must draw the line at Mr Olympia. Mauer might make it, that guy is a genetic freak..but unlike Pujols his body didn't make drastic changes. He was lean, athletic, and muscular as a teenager and has continued to be so as an adult, Pujols was big and fat as a teenager and then in a couple of years was a greek god.

I also didn't think that many of the guys who have been caught were doing it, but after being burned a few times I have resigned myself to thinking that it was obviously more widespread than anyone imagined, to the point of being almost commonplace...in other words I refuse to rule anyone out anymore. Not even Griffey.

Like I said he's a Cardinal, and depending on how you feel about Musial maybe the greatest Card ever..i understand why you defend him. But saying he's clean because he hasn't been caught is no longer a vaild defense. technically many of the the cheaters we know of haven't failed a drug test

ezluke
08-15-2010, 12:38 PM
Agreed. Hey, I was nieve enough to think McGwire was innocent, even after his, "I'm not here to talk about the past" testimony. It wasn't until about 2007 that I really started to doubt him. I guess it was more wishful thinking because I didn't want what I whitnessed in 1998 to be tarnished.

As for Pujols, people doubt him just because he's having an amazing career, but look at the facts. There is not one shred of evidence against him. He has stated on numerous occassions that he is tested 2 or 3 times a year and has been for many years. Being a HUGE Christian, he says he fears God too much to ever do anything like take PEDs. He also said that he would give back every cent he has ever made in baseball if ever found in possession of PEDs. Says he doesn't worry because it won't happen as he will never do them.

Until he gives me a reason not to believe him, I will believe him.

And I don't have a problem with you believing him.

But for what it's worth Palmeiro was suppsedly religous when he swore to god, and risked jail time lying about his use in front of congress..you wanna believe, I simply just can't. When I see him I see the best hitter since Barry Bonds' golden syringe years..I admire the results but with a suspicious eye

lidspinner
08-15-2010, 12:41 PM
"HGH doesn't make you bigger? Than why is it called human GROWTH hormone? "

I urge you to seriously do some research on what HGH actually does for the human body. If you look at Pujols weight from the time he was drafted to now, it has changed very little. The fact is he has always been a big guy. In fact one of the reasons why he was picked in the 13th round was due to the fact that clubs were worried about his body type and how it would translate into playing in the big leagues.

Lets consider it if he is on something. He is still going to accomplish what nobody in baseball history has done. That is have 10 straight years of hitting over .300, 30hr, and 100 RBI's. Nobody even in the steroid era has done this. So even if Albert is all roided up like some of you claim, what he is doing in baseball should still not be overlooked.

As far as Carp goes, I can see why some people would think he is "whiny" or complains. However, I think its wrong to take a couple of incidents and saying that's how he is in the club house or how he is all the time. For example, the whole ball incident has precedent. John Smoltz, a year before Carp made the statements he did, was pitching against the Reds and continually threw the balls away because he felt they were too slick. John Smoltz is one of the classiest guys in baseball and I don't think he would do that to start something with the Reds. When Carp made those comments, it was after a win so he wasn't making those comments out of anger. I think there was some legitimacy to the claims that Carp made.

Carpenter is far from a cancer in the club house. He is one of the more respected guys. When guys are doing their BP sessions, he is always down there trying to help them in spotting what certain pitchers are doing wrong. For example, Carp was the person who noticed that Smoltz was tipping his pitches and he helped correct his mechanics, not Dave Duncan. I really think this whole Carp dislike is due to the fact that Reds fans don't see him on a regular basis. It would be like me forming an opinion on Cueto by just seeing that brawl on Tuesday. It would not make any sense to do so.


might as well stop right there....you lose your "street cred" when you say things like that. GO look it up

HGH, while a member of the steroid family, will not make you bigger or stronger simply by taking it...it will reverse aging so to say....it helps older people feel younger....it helps you recover quicker....it is a natural substance that is produced by your own body......there are thousands of articles out there that will show you that HGH is not a muscle building substance..

ezluke
08-15-2010, 12:49 PM
might as well stop right there....you lose your "street cred" when you say things like that. GO look it up

HGH, while a member of the steroid family, will not make you bigger or stronger simply by taking it...it will reverse aging so to say....it helps older people feel younger....it helps you recover quicker....it is a natural substance that is produced by your own body......there are thousands of articles out there that will show you that HGH is not a muscle building substance..


I didn't know I had street cred, thanks. When I asked that question it was because I really didn't know the answer, and that poster seemed to have some understanding and later clarified the statement. But this original topic was about steroids and hgh, or peds in general. And like the poster said hgh doesn't make you bigger just leaner/fitter..which when speaking of Pujols is the more accurate description of the the changes his body made in his very short stint in the minors. Big and chubby, to big and lean/fit.

He played in era when many did peds and played for an organization that condoned it at the highest levels, especially during his time in the minors. All I have said is that he fits the profile.

1990REDS
08-15-2010, 12:50 PM
he plays for the team were in a pennat chase with. is that reason enough? If he played for the pirates i would care nothing about him.

lidspinner
08-15-2010, 01:10 PM
I didn't know I had street cred, thanks. When I asked that question it was because I really didn't know the answer, and that poster seemed to have some understanding and later clarified the statement. But this original topic was about steroids and hgh, or peds in general. And like the poster said hgh doesn't make you bigger just leaner/fitter..which when speaking of Pujols is the more accurate description of the the changes his body made in his very short stint in the minors. Big and chubby, to big and lean/fit.

He played in era when many did peds and played for an organization that condoned it at the highest levels, especially during his time in the minors. All I have said is that he fits the profile.


the street cred was a joke....inside joke.

Swampturkey
08-15-2010, 02:02 PM
If my memory is correct the problem with Pujols body initially was that he was kind of a chubby, big guy but overweight, not in good shape, however you wanna put it...now he is on the cover of muscle and fitness mags.

Albert gets chubby every offseason. He owns a resteraunt in St. Louis and his wife cooks spanish dishes. He works it off every spring. He has also learned how to keep in better shape during the season. I'm willing to bet that every rookie has to learn that.

This was him in 2001

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/therundown/2001%20cardinals%20-%20pujols%20rookie%20card.jpg

This is him now

http://notinhd.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/albert-pujols.jpg

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see much of a difference and he certainally wasn't fat in 2001.

lidspinner
08-15-2010, 03:54 PM
back on topic...why the hate for Carpenter....just take off the Cardinal glasses and I am sure you would hate him too....would I like him if he were on my team? you dam right I would. But he is not, so I am not going to treat him like he is Mr. Cy Young himself. Chris is a jerk and I am almost 100% certain that when he is good and gone from the Cardinals organization that most players will say the same. He is a bulldog and a warrior, and teammates love that out of him, but you dont show them up and he dont mind doing that at all.....he is an easy guy to disslike.

cw0802
08-15-2010, 04:15 PM
ezluke, I appriciate your argument and see your points. I guess the only part i object to is where you say "in a few short years he's a greek god".

I'm not trying to sound like a homer or anything but it is very possible to lose fat and get ripped in a year...especially if your job relies on your being in the best physical condition possible. Chubby in college and the minors to ripped up on the cover of a magaizine in 2007. There really is no argument...thats over a 7 year period. I'm 31 now and in the best shape of my life, when i was 24 I was kind of dumpy and could barely bench press 120 LBS. Now i'm putting up about 280. that's about a 7 year peroid, does that mean i was using PEDs?

MikeThierry
08-15-2010, 05:09 PM
If my memory is correct the problem with Pujols body initially was that he was kind of a chubby, big guy but overweight, not in good shape, however you wanna put it...now he is on the cover of muscle and fitness mags. (And with all due respect to your cardinal counterpart i'm betting Rolen never makes the cover of any fitness mag.) Now if the other poster is correct in that hgh doesn't make you bigger, just leaner and fitter..isn't that exactly what happened to his body after he was drafted...from big/flabby to lean/muscular?

Again I'm not saying he did but I don't see why he gets a pass from the scrutiny....if he was on another team and he was caught would you be shocked?

Its not that he wasn't in good shape, what it was is that scouts were worried about how his body type would translate to the majors and would it be a major problem for him. He was never really flabby or unfit to begin with.

There was an interesting story I read earlier this year where the Cards were in Spring Training and it was about 6 am. Bill Parcels is good friends with LaRussa and he was in the club house very early in the morning. While LaRussa was there, there was only 1 player in the weight room working out. That person was Albert Pujols. Parcels said essentially that there is no wonder why Pujols is the best player in the game. The point in bringing up this story is that Pujols is the hardest working player on the Cards team and is always doing things to keep his body in perfect shape. Besides, from 99 to 07 is a 8 year time span. You don't think he could have gotten in great shape from the time of his draft to being on the cover of a muscle magazine?

ezluke
08-15-2010, 07:18 PM
ezluke, I appriciate your argument and see your points. I guess the only part i object to is where you say "in a few short years he's a greek god".

I'm not trying to sound like a homer or anything but it is very possible to lose fat and get ripped in a year...especially if your job relies on your being in the best physical condition possible. Chubby in college and the minors to ripped up on the cover of a magaizine in 2007. There really is no argument...thats over a 7 year period. I'm 31 now and in the best shape of my life, when i was 24 I was kind of dumpy and could barely bench press 120 LBS. Now i'm putting up about 280. that's about a 7 year peroid, does that mean i was using PEDs?

I haven't said anything about him changing his body once he made the bigs, I have said the big change occured during his short stint in the minors. From the time he was drafted until the time he made the bigs he went from chubby to muscular..and again did this in an organization with a manager who looks gthe other way and led by a player who, along with Bonds has become the poster boy of the steroid era. I was simply asking him to look at the cover as a reference, not as a timeline.

And CW you are right it can be done clean..and I hope he has done it clean because he is a joy to watch. I stop what i'm doing to watch him hit, not many players I can say that about...there will always be a maybe.

mlh1981
08-15-2010, 07:23 PM
He beats our ass time and time again, plays for the Cardinals, and seems to have a bit of an overbearing personality on the field (cant comment on him off the field

Vottomatic
08-15-2010, 07:31 PM
He's 35 going on 10. That's all I have to say.

HARP3R
08-15-2010, 07:35 PM
He's 35 going on 10. That's all I have to say.

What about Cueto? Carp may have the attitude of a 10-year old, but at least he doesn't kick and scream like one.... ;)

HARP3R
08-15-2010, 08:21 PM
back on topic...why the hate for Carpenter....just take off the Cardinal glasses and I am sure you would hate him too....would I like him if he were on my team? you dam right I would. But he is not, so I am not going to treat him like he is Mr. Cy Young himself. Chris is a jerk and I am almost 100% certain that when he is good and gone from the Cardinals organization that most players will say the same. He is a bulldog and a warrior, and teammates love that out of him, but you dont show them up and he dont mind doing that at all.....he is an easy guy to disslike.

This year, Carpenter is bugging me, too. Even as a HUGE Redbird fan, he's been much more open with his emotions this year, and it's not something I've appreciated.

Pre-2010, Carpenter was widely viewed as a class-act throughout baseball, but for whatever reason, he's a b**** this year. I don't know if he's just frustrated with how he's pitched, and it's just boiling over, or if there's more to it, but this isn't the Chris Carpenter we've been used to here in St.Louis.

There have been plenty of Cardinals' fans questioning his on-the-field antics this year.

Hopefully, from here on out, he'll go back to letting his pitching do the talking.

Swampturkey
08-15-2010, 08:46 PM
Those who personally know Chris Carpenter love him. The Cardinals team that at the time included Scott Rolen, Jason Isringhausen, Jim Edmonds, etc. voted him reciepient of the 2006 Darryl Kile Award for being a great man, family man, and ballplayer. They don't award that to just anyone. That speaks volumes of his character to me.

Having said that, I don't know what is up with him this year. He is definately more animated and critical on the field than I have ever seen him. Maybe he's having a mid-life crisis or something. ;)

A local reporter asked our pitching coach Dave Duncan today why Chris has been having problems keeping his emotions in check on the field. Duncan said that while he has 13 wins on the season, Chris has been frustrated with his season and that frustration is coming out while on the mound.

HalMorrisRules
08-15-2010, 10:04 PM
What about Cueto? Carp may have the attitude of a 10-year old, but at least he doesn't kick and scream like one.... ;)

Next time you are pinned up against a brick wall by a couple of tons of baseball players I expect you to just let yourself be crushed, ok? I guess self preservation is childish behavior.

Kingspoint
08-15-2010, 10:11 PM
Next time you are pinned up against a brick wall by a couple of tons of baseball players I expect you to just let yourself be crushed, ok? I guess self preservation is childish behavior.

No kidding.

HARP3R
08-15-2010, 10:13 PM
Next time you are pinned up against a brick wall by a couple of tons of baseball players I expect you to just let yourself be crushed, ok? I guess self preservation is childish behavior.

There were a few guys pinned up against the net (or under the pile), but I didn't see any of them kicking guys with their spikes up. Not to mention Cueto was surrounded mainly by his teammates.

I don't care how you twist it, Cueto's move was a bad move.

Had Carpenter done what Cueto did, I guarantee there wouldn't be any of you saying Carp's behavior was "self-preservation".

There would've been pitchforks and torches with all of you calling for Carp's head.

bshall2105
08-15-2010, 10:28 PM
There were a few guys pinned up against the net (or under the pile), but I didn't see any of them kicking guys with their spikes up. Not to mention Cueto was surrounded mainly by his teammates.

I don't care how you twist it, Cueto's move was a bad move.

Had Carpenter done what Cueto did, I guarantee there wouldn't be any of you saying Carp's behavior was "self-preservation".

There would've been pitchforks and torches with all of you calling for Carp's head.

There already is pitchforks and torches with all of us calling for Carp's head.

jules2
08-15-2010, 10:33 PM
Having said that, I don't know what is up with him this year. He is definately more animated and critical on the field than I have ever seen him. Maybe he's having a mid-life crisis or something. ;)


Maybe :p

kfm
08-15-2010, 10:47 PM
There were a few guys pinned up against the net (or under the pile), but I didn't see any of them kicking guys with their spikes up. Not to mention Cueto was surrounded mainly by his teammates.

I don't care how you twist it, Cueto's move was a b**** move.

Had Carpenter done what Cueto did, I guarantee there wouldn't be any of you saying Carp's behavior was "self-preservation".

There would've been pitchforks and torches with all of you calling for Carp's head.

I have a general question for our new Cards friends. We all see this differently based upon who you root for. I don't blame cards players or fans for being upset watching a player kick other players, but I hardly can blame a small guy like Cueto for doing what he thought was necessary to protect himself. Having said that, I have to ask the cards fans if you all can explain this obsession that seems to exist on Cards Talk that the reds are just lucky. Their hitting with RISP is lucky, their late inning wins are lucky, other teams just lay down for the reds while they get up for the cards like playing the yankees or redsox. Why is it so hard for so many cards fans to accept the fact that these are not the same guys in those Reds uniforms that you are used to watching for the last 10 years. I would really like to hear a cards fans perspective on this.

paintmered
08-15-2010, 10:51 PM
There were a few guys pinned up against the net (or under the pile), but I didn't see any of them kicking guys with their spikes up. Not to mention Cueto was surrounded mainly by his teammates.

I don't care how you twist it, Cueto's move was a b**** move.

Had Carpenter done what Cueto did, I guarantee there wouldn't be any of you saying Carp's behavior was "self-preservation".

There would've been pitchforks and torches with all of you calling for Carp's head.

This horse is dead. I highly encourage you to stop beating it.

Quatitos
08-15-2010, 10:51 PM
Having said that, I don't know what is up with him this year. He is definately more animated and critical on the field than I have ever seen him. Maybe he's having a mid-life crisis or something. ;)

A local reporter asked our pitching coach Dave Duncan today why Chris has been having problems keeping his emotions in check on the field. Duncan said that while he has 13 wins on the season, Chris has been frustrated with his season and that frustration is coming out while on the mound.

If I were to venture a guess I would say it has a lot to do with him being outperformed by Wainright and even partially by Garcia. He is no longer the clear cut ace of the Cardinals staff which he has been for years. Also he is now 35 so he might be afraid that his best playing days are behind him. He quite possibly could be upset because he is facing the reality that not only might he never again be the best pitcher in the NL, he might never again be the best pitcher on his team. A lot of his outbursts this season could be stemming from his reluctance to accept that his best playing days are behind him so he is looking for excuses for his poorer (although very good) performance.

paintmered
08-15-2010, 11:02 PM
I ask these questions out of genuine curiosity.

How has Carpenter been able to come back from a torn labrum when so many pitchers with that injury cannot? A torn labrum is as close to a death sentence as there is for a pitcher and Carpenter has not only survived but thrived. I'm not insinuating anything by these questions, but he's such an outlier, I'd expect to see this case in a major medical journal for rehab.

HARP3R
08-15-2010, 11:08 PM
Having said that, I have to ask the cards fans if you all can explain this obsession that seems to exist on Cards Talk that the reds are just lucky.

I can't speak for all on Cards Talk. There are obviously the fans that are simply ruffled with the upbeat Reds. I mean, the Cards have been kings of the Central for a while now, and I think there are some fans that are just having a tough time seeing someone else try and take the Central crown.

Myself? I don't really care for Cards Talk. There are some knowledgeable posters there, but for the most part, it seems to be the spoiled fans who can't think objectively about any other team, and really can't even think objectively about their own. Everything is seen through Cardinal-colored glasses. I wouldn't look to Cards Talk as a gauge for the pulse of Cardinal-nation.

Anywho, I firmly believe the Reds are for real. Walt has built the kind of team that kept the Cards on top in the Central for such a long time there in Cincy, and there really isn't a reason to believe the Reds are "lucky". They're just good. It would ease my mind a little, though, to see them keep up the good play against teams above .500.

HARP3R
08-15-2010, 11:14 PM
I ask these questions out of genuine curiosity.

How has Carpenter been able to come back from a torn labrum when so many pitchers with that injury cannot? A torn labrum is as close to a death sentence as there is for a pitcher and Carpenter has not only survived but thrived. I'm not insinuating anything by these questions, but he's such an outlier, I'd expect to see this case in a major medical journal for rehab.

Everyone heals and deals with injuries differently.

Having been through Tommy-John and shoulder surgery (for a torn labrum), I can tell you that I've lost no velocity on my fastball, but the injuries have really taken a toll on me mentally, and I have never really recovered.

I think the mentally strong can pull through, where the others cannot.

Rolen is another who's overcome some "death sentences".

Whether it's "juice" or simply modern-medicine mixed with strong willed, ELITE athletes is a question that should definitely be asked, and if it's the latter, these guys should make known their methods as these are very common injuries in baseball nowadays.

jules2
08-15-2010, 11:16 PM
I have a general question for our new Cards friends. We all see this differently based upon who you root for. I don't blame cards players or fans for being upset watching a player kick other players, but I hardly can blame a small guy like Cueto for doing what he thought was necessary to protect himself. Having said that, I have to ask the cards fans if you all can explain this obsession that seems to exist on Cards Talk that the reds are just lucky. Their hitting with RISP is lucky, their late inning wins are lucky, other teams just lay down for the reds while they get up for the cards like playing the yankees or redsox. Why is it so hard for so many cards fans to accept the fact that these are not the same guys in those Reds uniforms that you are used to watching for the last 10 years. I would really like to hear a cards fans perspective on this.

Yeah, I don't check much on Cards Talk either. I'm not close to being an expert, but I don't see it all as lucky. The reds are a contender this year and it's a new spin on an NL central rivalry. It should be a good series when you guys are in town in a few weeks.

kfm
08-15-2010, 11:21 PM
I can't speak for all on Cards Talk. There are obviously the fans that are simply ruffled with the upbeat Reds. I mean, the Cards have been kings of the Central for a while now, and I think there are some fans that are just having a tough time seeing someone else try and take the Central crown.

Myself? I don't really care for Cards Talk. There are some knowledgeable posters there, but for the most part, it seems to be the spoiled fans who can't think objectively about any other team, and really can't even think objectively about their own. Everything is seen through Cardinal-colored glasses. I wouldn't look to Cards Talk as a gauge for the pulse of Cardinal-nation.

Anywho, I firmly believe the Reds are for real. Walt has built the kind of team that kept the Cards on top in the Central for such a long time there in Cincy, and there really isn't a reason to believe the Reds are "lucky". They're just good. It would ease my mind a little, though, to see them keep up the good play against teams above .500.

Their record against winning teams is somewhat deceiving. They have won series against the dodgers, mets, rockies, philies, and braves. I think they won 1 series against the cardinals as well. They have series against the phils and this week against the cards where they went winless in seven tries. The phils series was actually a tight well played series where Reds pitching shutdown the philies offense and of course they did everything wrong against the cardinals and the cardinals played very well. To me this seaon really comes down to the west coast. If the Reds lay an egg and lose the way they have in the past the Cards may be able to build an insurmountable lead. However, if the reds come out either in first place or just a few games out their September schedule should help them. I believe the reds were 8-8 against the cards last year, the cards were clearly a better team last year and the reds were not nearly as good as they are now. I think the cards are in the Reds head and the only way to change that is to beat them.

HARP3R
08-15-2010, 11:33 PM
Their record against winning teams is somewhat deceiving. They have won series against the dodgers, mets, rockies, philies, and braves. I think they won 1 series against the cardinals as well. They have series against the phils and this week against the cards where they went winless in seven tries. The phils series was actually a tight well played series where Reds pitching shutdown the philies offense and of course they did everything wrong against the cardinals and the cardinals played very well. To me this seaon really comes down to the west coast. If the Reds lay an egg and lose the way they have in the past the Cards may be able to build an insurmountable lead. However, if the reds come out either in first place or just a few games out their September schedule should help them. I believe the reds were 8-8 against the cards last year, the cards were clearly a better team last year and the reds were not nearly as good as they are now. I think the cards are in the Reds head and the only way to change that is to beat them.

I personally think this is the Reds' year.

The Cardinals play down to their competition too much. 9-12 is the Cards' combined record against the Astros and Cubs, and that simply won't cut it. To win your division, you HAVE to beat up on the bottom feeders of your own division. Take out the Pirates, and the Cardinals are only 15-16 against the Brewers, Astros, and Cubs. Thankfully, for the Birds, they have 9 games left with the Bucs.

On the flip-side, Cincinnati is 34-21 against the Central (with the 5-10 record against STL included). The Reds are the true Kings of the Central this year.

The Reds pitching depth (even without a true ace) and great team defense will win them the division and earn them a spot in the playoffs. They don't stack up well in a short-series, though, and I personally think they're one true ace away from being a legit World Series contender.

Dawg
08-16-2010, 12:58 AM
Never use Cards Talk as a barometer of the average Cardinals fans feelings on a subject. That place is the home of the wackos, brain deads and mental midgets.

MikeThierry
08-16-2010, 01:10 AM
I ask these questions out of genuine curiosity.

How has Carpenter been able to come back from a torn labrum when so many pitchers with that injury cannot? A torn labrum is as close to a death sentence as there is for a pitcher and Carpenter has not only survived but thrived. I'm not insinuating anything by these questions, but he's such an outlier, I'd expect to see this case in a major medical journal for rehab.

Actually, there have been a couple of famous cases of guys coming back from that surgery. Curt Shilling had labral surgery in 1995 and Roger Clemens came back from it 1985. Ted Lilly has also come back from the surgery as well. I think Pedro also suffered from a Labrum injury. There are probably more pitchers to come back from this kind of injury than you think. It used to be a death sentence for pitchers but now, with modern technology, its an injury that can be fixed.

stevekun
08-16-2010, 01:17 AM
I just wanna know why the Cardinals and their fans have such thin skin?

MikeThierry
08-16-2010, 01:31 AM
I just wanna know why the Cardinals and their fans have such thin skin?

Pertaining to what?

Kingspoint
08-16-2010, 03:07 AM
I ask these questions out of genuine curiosity.

How has Carpenter been able to come back from a torn labrum when so many pitchers with that injury cannot? A torn labrum is as close to a death sentence as there is for a pitcher and Carpenter has not only survived but thrived. I'm not insinuating anything by these questions, but he's such an outlier, I'd expect to see this case in a major medical journal for rehab.

Roger Clemens had a torn labrum back in 1983, I believe.

Just sayin'.

MikeThierry
08-16-2010, 08:41 PM
Curt Shilling as well. I think pitchers coming back from this injury is more common than people think.

Lockdwn11
08-17-2010, 10:58 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84723


This pretty much sums it up for me.

Rockermann
08-17-2010, 11:00 AM
That story was posted a few pages back in this thread... Just an FYI. :)

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2208947&postcount=51

Lockdwn11
08-17-2010, 10:22 PM
That story was posted a few pages back in this thread... Just an FYI. :)

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2208947&postcount=51

ok