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View Full Version : Official "What to do with Cordero" thread



Vottomatic
08-15-2010, 10:27 PM
They have one on the ORG and it's pretty entertaining. So have at it.

1. He makes too much $$$ to be traded.
2. He makes too much $$$ to be a setup guy. Atleast that's what I think management thinks, unfortunately.
3. He makes too much $$$ to be cut.
4. He makes things interesting every time out. He has a WHIP around 1.50.

Personally, I demote him to the 6th or 7th inning with a short leash. But Dusty won't do it. It would have to come from above.

I like the idea of swapping him with the Mets for Carlos Beltran if they send us some money to make it an even swap. Beltran is owed about $20M next season and Cordero is owed a little more than $12M.

sivman17
08-15-2010, 10:45 PM
I am not sure what you can do with him. I would love to see one of the other relievers try to close, because I think Ondrusek, Smith, Rhodes, or Masset are all fully capable. I have never quite bought into the whole "closer" role, especially when you have a mediocre one like Cordero. If you have someone like Soria or Rivera, well that's a whole different story. But with a guy like Cordero, who struggles and nearly blows every single game he closes, I think one of the other guys should be given a shot.

Although he hasn't blown that many games this year, I don't know of anyone who would honestly feel confident allowing him to close a game in the playoffs. Frankly, if he came into the game in the 9th with a 1 or 2-run lead, I would just naturally assume he would blow it. I have ZERO confidence in him in a playoff save situation. Unfortunately, since Baker hasn't tried anyone else in that role, it seems as if we are stuck with him.

Maybe they figure out something in the off-season, but for this year I think we have to deal with the heart attacks every time we have a save situation.

redlegs2370
08-15-2010, 10:51 PM
How many years does Coco have left on his contract?

sivman17
08-15-2010, 10:54 PM
One way to look at the predicament is the same way a batting order is made. If a guy is struggling at a certain spot in the order, he is often moved to a different spot. Dusty has moved people quite a bit this season. B Phil, who used to bat 4th, has batted leadoff and in the 2-hole. OCab has lead off as well as batted 2nd. You get where I am going with this...

I don't see why Baker doesn't look at the bullpen the same way. If a RP isn't performing well in a certain inning (say, the 9th), then why continue to put him out there in the 9th? I think we all know that Dusty isn't moving Cordero anytime soon as much as we want to talk about it, but I would certainly like to see something different.

At this point in the season, you can't worry about money and you can't worry about hurting people's feelings. Even Dusty said that. Thus, if Cordero is going to help this team better in the 7th or 8th, then why not try him there? I don't think it would hurt anything to move him to the setup role and let someone like Rhodes or Masset close.

One of the Reds announcers (I forget who.. possibly Welsh or Brantley) said that once you move Cordero, you can't move him back. They were even shocked that Dusty had taken him out of the game last weekend after he walked 3 guys and hit a guy. I'm not sure if I buy into all that business about not being able to move him back to the 9th. All I know is that when we are winning by 1, 2, or 3 runs going into the 9th, I give Cordero nearly a 50/50 shot of actually saving the game. I know he has done much better than that, but it sure doesn't seem like it. He is going to burn us sooner or later.

Kingspoint
08-15-2010, 11:00 PM
Continue to pay him and play him this year to do what he does.

Re-evaluate after the season.

Natty Redlocks
08-15-2010, 11:20 PM
Continue to pay him and play him this year to do what he does.

Re-evaluate after the season.

yep

R_Webb18
08-16-2010, 12:01 AM
let him close? Don't get the point of this thread he is the closer no matter what you say for the rest of the year.

Dale4Saul2Red0
08-16-2010, 02:17 AM
Continue to pay him and play him this year to do what he does.

Re-evaluate after the season.

Yup the bed has been made this season for Cordero and personally I don't think we have a guy we can even turn to at this point in the 9th outside of Cordero. Even with his struggles the Reds are still 16 games over .500. Don't want to let him have a chance to blow it in the 9th, well then our bats better give him a 3+ run cushion then we won't have to sweat it.

Kingspoint
08-16-2010, 04:09 AM
Don't want to let him have a chance to blow it in the 9th, well then our bats better give him a 3+ run cushion then we won't have to sweat it.

Don't think our hitters don't know this, too.

RedsFanInBama
08-16-2010, 04:15 AM
There's nothing that can be done right now unless the guys at the very top of this organization say something can be done.

PhatHead
08-16-2010, 09:30 AM
How many years does Coco have left on his contract?

I believe that he's signed through next year. I don't know if they is a mutual option for 2012 or not.

I think that the Reds need to leave him in the closer's role this year, but don't be afraid to yank him. Last night's double off of him didn't bother me nearly as much as the walks that he gives up. If they hit you, then fine...... but don't hurt yourself by giving free passes.

New York Red
08-16-2010, 11:58 AM
Continue to pay him and play him this year to do what he does.

Re-evaluate after the season.
I have to agree with this. It's too late in the season to switch closers. Cordero drives me crazy - I cringe at the sight of him warming up. But there's no guarantee anyone else can do better right now. As for re-evaluating him after the season, I hope it's a quick decision. I don't want to ride the CoCo roller coaster again next year.

takealeake
08-16-2010, 02:59 PM
Yup the bed has been made this season for Cordero and personally I don't think we have a guy we can even turn to at this point in the 9th outside of Cordero. Even with his struggles the Reds are still 16 games over .500. Don't want to let him have a chance to blow it in the 9th, well then our bats better give him a 3+ run cushion then we won't have to sweat it.

Rhodes. Ondrussek. Masset. What do you mean we don't have a guy? Cordero has done as bad as someone could do this year as closer and the stats prove it. Time to stop treating the closer role like it's some sort of nuclear physicist specialized position that ONLY he can do, and if someone else did their heads would explode from the amount of difficulty it takes. It's pitching an inning without letting the other team score. Other guys do that perfectly fine in our bullpen, and for whatever reason, Cordero can not.

Basically what you do with Cordero is trade him for a team equally sick of their overpriced player, and go on with that. If we could get Beltran with only about a $3-$4 mil difference in salary, I would take him in a heartbeat for Cordero.

DocRed
08-16-2010, 03:05 PM
Rhodes. Ondrussek. Masset. What do you mean we don't have a guy? Cordero has done as bad as someone could do this year as closer and the stats prove it. Time to stop treating the closer role like it's some sort of nuclear physicist specialized position that ONLY he can do, and if someone else did their heads would explode from the amount of difficulty it takes. It's pitching an inning without letting the other team score. Other guys do that perfectly fine in our bullpen, and for whatever reason, Cordero can not.

Basically what you do with Cordero is trade him for a team equally sick of their overpriced player, and go on with that. If we could get Beltran with only about a $3-$4 mil difference in salary, I would take him in a heartbeat for Cordero.

I think what people are saying is we know what we have with Coco...a guy that will convert about 80-85% of save situations while giving you a heart attack. Could Masset, Ondrusek do better? Well sure, but they could do worse as well. But I don't know if now is the time to find out in the last months of a pennant race. Not saying that line of thinking is right or not though....

takealeake
08-16-2010, 03:17 PM
I think what people are saying is we know what we have with Coco...a guy that will convert about 80-85% of save situations while giving you a heart attack. Could Masset, Ondrusek do better? Well sure, but they could do worse as well? But I don't know if now is the time to find out in the last months of a pennant race. Not saying that line of thinking is right or not....

80-85% is NOT good. And what do you mean by saying "We don't know what they could do." These guys pitch one inning effectively ALL. THE. TIME. Just because the scoreboard says 9th inning doesn't mean that you're suddenly in an entire different world.

Closer is the most overrated, overvalued position in ALL of sports for the excuses people are saying why Cordero can't replaced. People buy into all the media crap and all the big salaries as to why other pitchers couldn't do the EXACT same thing, and better than most bad closers like Cordero.

Heck, there should be enough proof out there in the fact that most closers got their chance in the first place by the previous closer not doing their job and being put in the position to replace that guy after being a failed starter or middle reliever and do perfectly fine. Even more so, look at times like when we got Todd Jones off the biggest scrap heap you can find and he became one of the leagues top closers for us and Detroit, and also how Stormy Weathers did at closer for us, oftentimes pitching two innings to get it. There's dozens of those instances all across the league.

Remember when we had the longest streak of wins after 8 innings in the majors, maybe even the MLB record? Go look and see at all the different guys who did the brunt of that streak. It sure as heck wasn't only an overpaid $12 mil guy who could only do the position. It's time to stop worrying about egos and salaries and this and that - we're trying to make the playoffs, not stroke the ego of a guy who makes more in one year than any of us will make in our lifetimes.

DocRed
08-16-2010, 03:21 PM
80-85% is NOT good. And what do you mean by saying "We don't know what they could do." These guys pitch one inning effectively ALL. THE. TIME. Just because the scoreboard says 9th inning doesn't mean that you're suddenly in an entire different world.

Closer is the most overrated, overvalued position in ALL of sports for the excuses people are saying why Cordero can't replaced. People buy into all the media crap and all the big salaries as to why other pitchers couldn't do the EXACT same thing, and better than most bad closers like Cordero.

Heck, there should be enough proof out there in the fact that most closers got their chance in the first place by the previous closer not doing their job and being put in the position to replace that guy after being a failed starter or middle reliever and do perfectly fine. Even more so, look at times like when we got Todd Jones off the biggest scrap heap you can find and he became one of the leagues top closers for us and Detroit, and also how Stormy Weathers did at closer for us, oftentimes pitching two innings to get it. There's dozens of those instances all across the league.

Remember when we had the longest streak of wins after 8 innings in the majors, maybe even the MLB record? Go look and see at all the different guys who did the brunt of that streak. It sure as heck wasn't only an overpaid $12 mil guy who could only do the position. It's time to stop worrying about egos and salaries and this and that - we're trying to make the playoffs, not stroke the ego of a guy who makes more in one year than any of us will make in our lifetimes.

I agree it's not particulary good. I actually agree with you and think we should have given one of those guys a shot a long time ago. I'm just saying that is what I believe some people, including management are thinking.

Dale4Saul2Red0
08-16-2010, 03:34 PM
Rhodes. Ondrussek. Masset. What do you mean we don't have a guy? Cordero has done as bad as someone could do this year as closer and the stats prove it. Time to stop treating the closer role like it's some sort of nuclear physicist specialized position that ONLY he can do, and if someone else did their heads would explode from the amount of difficulty it takes. It's pitching an inning without letting the other team score. Other guys do that perfectly fine in our bullpen, and for whatever reason, Cordero can not.

Basically what you do with Cordero is trade him for a team equally sick of their overpriced player, and go on with that. If we could get Beltran with only about a $3-$4 mil difference in salary, I would take him in a heartbeat for Cordero.

You underestimate the mental strength it takes to close baseball games. Comparing the 9th inning to the 6th 7th or 8th inning is very boneheaded. It's a completely different animal. Why have there been numerous guys who pitch well in the setup roles but when given the opportunity to become a closer they piss down their leg?

I'm not saying Rhodes, Ondru, and Masset aren't capable, but at this point in the season we don't have the time to wait and find out if any of those guys can be a consistent option for us in the 9th. We're in the middle of a pennant race and right now we are stuck grinding it with Cordero this season.

takealeake
08-16-2010, 03:42 PM
You underestimate the mental strength it takes to close baseball games. Comparing the 9th inning to the 6th 7th or 8th inning is very boneheaded. It's a completely different animal. Why have there been numerous guys who pitch well in the setup roles but when given the opportunity to become a closer they piss down their leg?

I'm not saying Rhodes, Ondru, and Masset aren't capable, but at this point in the season we don't have the time to wait and find out if any of those guys can be a consistent option for us in the 9th. We're in the middle of a pennant race and right now we are stuck grinding it with Cordero this season.

Why have there been scrap heap players to come into the closer role and perform fine then? I don't know of any player who was a great setup man to go into the closer role and flat out suck because it's the ninth inning. I'm guessing any pitcher promoted to closer who didn't do well, was one that didn't do well in the first place when he was put in the closer position.

If you're going to give me that crap that going into the ninth inning with a 1 to 3 run lead is more stressful than situational pitching when you come in having to get a couple outs with bases loaded or a couple guys in scoring position, give me a break. I'm not buying that crap, nor ever will.

The bottom line is, if I took the name off of every reliever we had and simply posted what stats they've had this year, their WHIP, K/BB, ERA, etc. and said who do you want to be in the game in the ninth when we need to finish, I'm guessing you wouldn't be choosing Francisco Cordero out of that list. In fact, you would probably think it's insane to put him in that position.

What's funny is, the best comparison to a closer that can be made in another sport is the kicker in football. Yet, NFL teams have no qualms about booting a guy who isn't getting the job done on FG's. They don't put up with that crap, they don't put up with losing games or putting them in jeopardy for the sake of egos, if you can't make the kick even if you're a veteran kicker, after about 3 games at the VERY most you're on the bench for someone else.

We're trying to make the freaking playoffs here, and I agree with you - we don't have the time to wait - to wait to put up with more of Cordero's crap and not getting the job done that is. We can't afford it anymore.

Krawhitham
08-16-2010, 03:52 PM
The last two times out Coco thinks he is throwing strikes, he gets pissed at the ump thinking he is getting squeezed. The problem is they are not strikes, someone needs to work with Coco and what he thinks is a strike. It appears for the most part he was throwing the ball where he wanted until he gets pissed at the ump and emotion messes with his control. He was throwing 97 MPH with a 90 MPH Slider

rolenmvp
09-12-2010, 05:13 PM
I have seen enough of him....he's terrible, he's garbage, he don't deserve to pitch here anymore, costed cueto a win today, I hope dusty realizes this but yet....mr baker always throws him out there, hey dusty? when is enough enough dude...good grief.

BlastFurnace
09-12-2010, 05:18 PM
I wouldn't even pitch Cordero at all the rest of the year. This guy makes David Weathers look like Mariano Rivera

RedsFanInBama
09-12-2010, 05:20 PM
I'm going to start a fund to buy out Cordero's contract. I think between all the Reds fans out there I will be able to raise enough money by the start of next season to rid us of the guy. Maybe I can present a check to Bob C at the start of spring training.

rolenmvp
09-12-2010, 05:20 PM
I wouldn't even pitch Cordero at all the rest of the year. This guy makes David Weathers look like Mariano Rivera

shoot david weathers is better than cordero and that's bad....terrible outing, we should be up at least 11 games on the cardinals yet we are letting them hang around, still up 7 games but still, we should be up alot more than we are.

pinhead
09-12-2010, 05:21 PM
It's an awful feeling knowing that every time Cordero goes out there the game has a good chance of getting blown. Changes need to be made if we're going to be a force in the playoffs.

RedsFanInBama
09-12-2010, 05:22 PM
When he walked the first guy today I knew at that moment the game was going to get blown. It was just a matter of how badly he was going to blow it and he did a hell of a job. He's a bum.

rolenmvp
09-12-2010, 05:22 PM
It's an awful feeling knowing that every time Cordero goes out there the game has a good chance of getting blown. Changes need to be made if we're going to be a force in the playoffs.

but, yet our manager dusty baker lets him stay in there, I would have had a guy warming up when he walked the batter, and if he could't get the next guy I would pull him.

inexcusable and terrible and just flat out stupid managing on the part of dusty baker, we pay this cordero dude alot of money but, yet he goes out and blows ballgames and our manager dusty just sits there with his toothpick in his mouth and watches him blow games, simply unbelievable.

rolenmvp
09-12-2010, 05:28 PM
it's not how cordero blows games, it's how he does it, he almost all the time walks the first batter he faces and gets behind in the count and when your a closer that should't be happening, but yet it does.

I will still say to this day, it was a stupid thing to sign him in the first place, I remember his days in texas and milwaukee and they were about as bad as they get, I remember one point cordero had a era over 5 with the rangers and ranger fans were about to crucify him at one point, terrible signing all together, he seems like a pretty nice guy but, the fact is...he cannot close ballgames, he simply cannot, and it's going to cost us in the playoffs if he pitches in a tight game.

could lose us a series, I say stick a younger guy in there like jordan smith or heck put LOGAN in there to pitch, and let cordero pitch maybe the 8th and be done with it.

kfm
09-12-2010, 05:33 PM
Wow, some well thought out sensible post on this thread. I have to say that I have been pretty frustrated with Coco but hadn't he saved like 12 straight and something like 17 of his last 18 before friday nights game. In fact, he has pitched better over the course of the last two to three weeks than he has at any point this year. I can understand, yet disagree that he should be removed as the closer at this point. However, the idea that the Reds should just eat his contract not pitch him and cut him is just plain stupid. Btw, go check out David Weathers numbers if you think he was such a bad pitcher, you may be surprised what the facts, not fans feelings, said about his production as a red.

takealeake
09-12-2010, 05:34 PM
Don't put him on the playoff roster and find a way to trade him for ANYONE in the offseason. Even if it's an equally disappointing player, maybe an outfielder, someone we could use. Maybe the Brewers would take him back and we could trade for Dickerson.

BAKER12
09-12-2010, 05:36 PM
Who would be the closer?
What role would Cordero be reduced to
Rhodes closing games vs LH
Masset closing games vs RH
Mix and match like the 1985 Cards?
Chapman ready to close?
Who is 8th inning bridge if Rhodes closes?
Homer in 2011 closing?

kfm
09-12-2010, 05:37 PM
Don't put him on the playoff roster and find a way to trade him for ANYONE in the offseason. Even if it's an equally disappointing player, maybe an outfielder, someone we could use. Maybe the Brewers would take him back and we could trade for Dickerson.

Which releiver are you putting on the playoff roster instead of Cordero?

Orodle
09-12-2010, 05:39 PM
the simple and smart thing would have him not close games. But thats not PR since it might hurt his feelings and plus hes being paid a lot. Right now I would take anyone in the pen closing games over him. Hell let Harang close games or Leake when hes ready to return.

kfm
09-12-2010, 05:44 PM
the simple and smart thing would have him not close games. But thats not PR since it might hurt his feelings and plus hes being paid a lot. Right now I would take anyone in the pen closing games over him. Hell let Harang close games or Leake when hes ready to return.

You really want to let Aaron Harang close games. Is this a joke, this has to be a joke.

PeteRoseBelongs
09-12-2010, 05:45 PM
oh guys lets keep it simple.

he Cordero doing the job? answer no not at this time

does the club have anyone that it can turn too at the moment? Yes, turn it over to Massett or Rhodes or both.

This is my only thought on the matter. If we are making a run at the playoffs then we can not continue to put a person in a situation that right now he does not have control over. He needs a few days to get himself together. Go and see the sports phychologist. Get laid, have a beer. Kick a cat, do what you have to do but get your mind clear.

The Reds have one year left on the contract. I have no problem with trading him at the end of the season. But I have no intrest in Beltran. We have had the youth movement thrown at us by ownership's for over 10 years now. I have bought into the movement.

I believe and felt for a while that Massett is the future in the 9th and the future is now. We have to do something or old mother MO is going to turn to someone else. This is awful that Pittsburgh did what they did to us in this series. For god sakes they had only won 47 games coming into this series.

PeteRoseBelongs
09-12-2010, 05:47 PM
or how about this. Lets throw that 103pmh heater in the 9th. Lets do with Chapman what the Rays did with Price a couple of years ago when they went to the series.

malcontent
09-12-2010, 05:48 PM
You take "Coco" out of the closer's role, he'll never get another Wheaties commercial contract to serve it up to Pujols!

Think, people!

bornready
09-12-2010, 05:51 PM
oh guys lets keep it simple.

he Cordero doing the job? answer no not at this time

does the club have anyone that it can turn too at the moment? Yes, turn it over to Massett or Rhodes or both.

This is my only thought on the matter. If we are making a run at the playoffs then we can not continue to put a person in a situation that right now he does not have control over. He needs a few days to get himself together. Go and see the sports phychologist. Get laid, have a beer. Kick a cat, do what you have to do but get your mind clear.

The Reds have one year left on the contract. I have no problem with trading him at the end of the season. But I have no intrest in Beltran. We have had the youth movement thrown at us by ownership's for over 10 years now. I have bought into the movement.

I believe and felt for a while that Massett is the future in the 9th and the future is now. We have to do something or old mother MO is going to turn to someone else. This is awful that Pittsburgh did what they did to us in this series. For god sakes they had only won 47 games coming into this series.

and now they've won 48. even the pirates win 1 of every 3. thank god though for 2 extra inning wins or else this would actually be an embarassing series.


also, idk how it would work, but i REALLY want to see chapman come in to close out some games for the rest of the year.

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 05:53 PM
You underestimate the mental strength it takes to close baseball games. Comparing the 9th inning to the 6th 7th or 8th inning is very boneheaded. It's a completely different animal. Why have there been numerous guys who pitch well in the setup roles but when given the opportunity to become a closer they piss down their leg?

I'm not saying Rhodes, Ondru, and Masset aren't capable, but at this point in the season we don't have the time to wait and find out if any of those guys can be a consistent option for us in the 9th. We're in the middle of a pennant race and right now we are stuck grinding it with Cordero this season.

I totally agree with what you are saying. I understand Cordero has not been the best but it could be worse. Cordero hadnt gave up a run since August 14 prior to this weekend. Grant it many of those were probably tight rope walks. But who really is the answer? You cant just throw anyone in the position of closer. I say the Reds stay with Cordero this year but if we see him getting into trouble in a game during the playoffs pull him and put masset in the game or something. The Reds can not just totally shut down Cordero this year.

DocRed
09-12-2010, 06:10 PM
I really can't stand the argument of "selective stats". ie..."But hey this guy hasn't given up a run since so and so date" or "Hey if you take away these 3 bad outings then..". As if the bad outtings or stats should simply be ignored as an aberration. You can take almost any MLB player and apply selective stats and make him look like an all-star.

Vottomatic
09-12-2010, 06:13 PM
The key statement in many of these posts is "but Dusty keeps running him out there".

There should be a rule that if the closer allows two runners to get on base, he comes out. I was fine with Coco coming out for the 9th to get a shot to close it down. But when you let two runners get on that quickly, it's pretty obvious he doesn't have it. The eye test should be plenty enough for Dusty.

I'm not only done with Coco........I'm done with a manager who cannot see his team on the verge of losing and he continues to sit on his hands and do nothing. Is he afraid of upsetting his veteran closer Cordero??? WHO FRICKIN' CARES!!!!!!!! Get some balls and take him out. Tell him he had a chance and we're not blowing this game. Put in Chapman. Put in Masset. Put somebody else in and if they give up a walk, bring in another guy.

We had that game today. In the bag. Cordero blew it and Dusty blew it by leaving him in way, way, way too long. That was pathetic and ridiculous.

Classic Dusty. Sit back, toothpick in mouth, and watch the whole world fall apart and do absolutely nothing about it.

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 06:20 PM
The key statement in many of these posts is "but Dusty keeps running him out there".

There should be a rule that if the closer allows two runners to get on base, he comes out. I was fine with Coco coming out for the 9th to get a shot to close it down. But when you let two runners get on that quickly, it's pretty obvious he doesn't have it. The eye test should be plenty enough for Dusty.

I'm not only done with Coco........I'm done with a manager who cannot see his team on the verge of losing and he continues to sit on his hands and do nothing. Is he afraid of upsetting his veteran closer Cordero??? WHO FRICKIN' CARES!!!!!!!! Get some balls and take him out. Tell him he had a chance and we're not blowing this game. Put in Chapman. Put in Masset. Put somebody else in and if they give up a walk, bring in another guy.

We had that game today. In the bag. Cordero blew it and Dusty blew it by leaving him in way, way, way too long. That was pathetic and ridiculous.

Classic Dusty. Sit back, toothpick in mouth, and watch the whole world fall apart and do absolutely nothing about it.

Dusty is so bad this team is going to the playoffs I guess. I dont understand.

takealeake
09-12-2010, 06:21 PM
Which releiver are you putting on the playoff roster instead of Cordero?

Anyone with a freaking pulse.

DocRed
09-12-2010, 06:23 PM
This is a PERFECT opportunity to audition closers in game situations before the season ends IMO. Barring a seismic colapse we are not going to lose the pennant, why not let Ond/Masset/Chapman/Rhodes try to close? What do you have to lose?

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 06:26 PM
Cordero has the 3rd most saves in the NL. Billy Wagner is right behind him and has blown 7 games. Cordero has blown 8.

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 06:28 PM
I didnt realize this either but coco has only had 2 batters all year in a 3-0 count.

DocRed
09-12-2010, 06:31 PM
nm

kfm
09-12-2010, 06:33 PM
The key statement in many of these posts is "but Dusty keeps running him out there".

There should be a rule that if the closer allows two runners to get on base, he comes out. I was fine with Coco coming out for the 9th to get a shot to close it down. But when you let two runners get on that quickly, it's pretty obvious he doesn't have it. The eye test should be plenty enough for Dusty.

I'm not only done with Coco........I'm done with a manager who cannot see his team on the verge of losing and he continues to sit on his hands and do nothing. Is he afraid of upsetting his veteran closer Cordero??? WHO FRICKIN' CARES!!!!!!!! Get some balls and take him out. Tell him he had a chance and we're not blowing this game. Put in Chapman. Put in Masset. Put somebody else in and if they give up a walk, bring in another guy.

We had that game today. In the bag. Cordero blew it and Dusty blew it by leaving him in way, way, way too long. That was pathetic and ridiculous.

Classic Dusty. Sit back, toothpick in mouth, and watch the whole world fall apart and do absolutely nothing about it.

Rules for taking your closer out,seriously? Then if a guy walks someone ou take him out? Do you get how completely unworkable this idea is? Do you know how quickly you would burn out your bullpen and how often guys would have to get warmed up without ever even coming into a game? Cordero has walked a tight rope most of the season until the last couple weeks when he has pitched better than he has all year. How many times would you have taken him out when he ultimately ended up getting the save for the reds, 20 or 30 times when he didn't "have it" that he got the job done. I have read post like this on Card talk countless times fans are the same everywhere, only difference they are 6.5 games out of first place.

kfm
09-12-2010, 06:36 PM
Anyone with a freaking pulse.

So is it fare to say that you consider Cordero to be the worst pitcher on the Reds team? Do you think the Reds share your same view, and if not why do you think the Reds feel differently than you do?

kfm
09-12-2010, 06:38 PM
Cordero has the 3rd most saves in the NL. Billy Wagner is right behind him and has blown 7 games. Cordero has blown 8.

Don't cloud the argument with facts, it is much easier and less complicated to go on emotion and perception.

Vottomatic
09-12-2010, 06:38 PM
Rules for taking your closer out,seriously? Then if a guy walks someone ou take him out? Do you get how completely unworkable this idea is? Do you know how quickly you would burn out your bullpen and how often guys would have to get warmed up without ever even coming into a game? Cordero has walked a tight rope most of the season until the last couple weeks when he has pitched better than he has all year. How many times would you have taken him out when he ultimately ended up getting the save for the reds, 20 or 30 times when he didn't "have it" that he got the job done. I have read post like this on Card talk countless times fans are the same everywhere, only difference they are 6.5 games out of first place.

Yeah genius, we'll revisit your post in the postseason when Cordero blows a bunch of games.

He blows period.

Yes, rules for closing a game. Seriously. Especially when the pattern is the same over and over and over.

He has no out pitch. If it's not down the middle, it's not even close. That is what has always bugged me about Cordero. He doesn't move his strikes around where they are even close to the K zone. They are either WAY OUT of the strike zone or right down the middle. Throw something close but not quite a strike and make them think about it. But he can't do that. He only throws perfect strikes down the middle or not even close.

Vottomatic
09-12-2010, 06:41 PM
So is it fare to say that you consider Cordero to be the worst pitcher on the Reds team? Do you think the Reds share your same view, and if not why do you think the Reds feel differently than you do?

Same frickin' management that has gone weeks with Edmonds, Bruce, Nix unavailable in the outfield, but not brought up an outfielder, handicapping us with Gomes in the late innings for defense.

Management has done some good things, but they're not perfect.

The OFer fiasco is one issue and not demoting Coco is another.

I got a whole list of dumb moves by management and the manager.

kfm
09-12-2010, 06:49 PM
Yeah genius, we'll revisit your post in the postseason when Cordero blows a bunch of games.

He blows period.

Yes, rules for closing a game. Seriously. Especially when the pattern is the same over and over and over.

He has no out pitch. If it's not down the middle, it's not even close. That is what has always bugged me about Cordero. He doesn't move his strikes around where they are even close to the K zone. They are either WAY OUT of the strike zone or right down the middle. Throw something close but not quite a strike and make them think about it. But he can't do that. He only throws perfect strikes down the middle or not even close.

Don't really get the point of calling names. If he always blows are his save totals made up?? Did we imagine them? I take it by the fact that you did not address anything that I actually put in my post, that you don't have the abilit to defend your previous post with responses to my concerns. YOur closer rules idea is completely and totally unworkable. You would destroy a bullpen irrevocably about a month or so into a season. Your last post is so devoid of fact it is hard to even know where to begin, perhaps you should look up some pitching fx so you can have a better idea of what you are talking about. Perhaps you just need a better TV so you can have a better sense of pitch location. If the pattern is the same over and over and over wouldn't he have to have more than 8 blown saves, wouldn't it be more like 30 to 35 blown saves. I am not claiming that he is the best closer or an elite closer I am just saying that your point of view is more emotional than anything else. But hey perhaps you should send your rules for closers to MLB and they will make every team adopt them, and then we can all say we heard it here first.

kfm
09-12-2010, 06:51 PM
Same frickin' management that has gone weeks with Edmonds, Bruce, Nix unavailable in the outfield, but not brought up an outfielder, handicapping us with Gomes in the late innings for defense.

Management has done some good things, but they're not perfect.

The OFer fiasco is one issue and not demoting Coco is another.

I got a whole list of dumb moves by management and the manager.

Well the question wasn't really for you, but true to your typical form you did not answer the actual question. Do you think he is the worst pitcher on the team.

Vottomatic
09-12-2010, 06:54 PM
Don't really get the point of calling names. If he always blows are his save totals made up?? Did we imagine them? I take it by the fact that you did not address anything that I actually put in my post, that you don't have the abilit to defend your previous post with responses to my concerns. YOur closer rules idea is completely and totally unworkable. You would destroy a bullpen irrevocably about a month or so into a season. Your last post is so devoid of fact it is hard to even know where to begin, perhaps you should look up some pitching fx so you can have a better idea of what you are talking about. Perhaps you just need a better TV so you can have a better sense of pitch location. If the pattern is the same over and over and over wouldn't he have to have more than 8 blown saves, wouldn't it be more like 30 to 35 blown saves. I am not claiming that he is the best closer or an elite closer I am just saying that your point of view is more emotional than anything else. But hey perhaps you should send your rules for closers to MLB and they will make every team adopt them, and then we can all say we heard it here first.


What's there to defend? I got my opinion and you got yours.

Enjoy being in the losers bracket. That's what you get with Cordero.

Debating is for arrogant egotistical know it alls who just want to beat their chest.

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 06:58 PM
Yeah genius, we'll revisit your post in the postseason when Cordero blows a bunch of games.

He blows period.

Yes because Cordero is always blowing games right after another. He has just blown save after save that is why he is 3rd in the NL. As far as I can tell this is the first time Cordero has blown 2 saves this close together (a game between them). So how is he going to blow a bunch of games in the post season. Cordero has blown 8 saves out of 43 opportunities! Maybe you think its crazy but looking at it thats a good success rate to me. I get just as mad as the next guy when he blows a save. But looking at his stats I dont see how he is not at the very least a decent closing pitcher compared to other closers. Some people seem to act like Cordero is the worst closer in the world. I understand he may make us feel like he is when he looks bad on a night but if we look at his stats this year and compare it to others we realize otherwise. Plus if you ever notice usually when he is bad is when he has had several days off in a row.

kfm
09-12-2010, 07:02 PM
What's there to defend? I got my opinion and you got yours.

Enjoy being in the losers bracket. That's what you get with Cordero.

Debating is for arrogant egotistical know it alls who just want to beat their chest.

I especially like your last line here. A post like this on a discussion board. Man you always have an opinion on what other people think and suddenly that is just for arrogant egotistical know it alls. You still can't grasp the point of my post. I think we all know you are out of ammo, it's ok to admit it none of us will think less of you. So there should be no more debating on Redszone, perhaps that can be a rule too right next to the rules for closers.

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 07:03 PM
What's there to defend? I got my opinion and you got yours.

Enjoy being in the losers bracket. That's what you get with Cordero.

Debating is for arrogant egotistical know it alls who just want to beat their chest.

you debate with people all the time vottomatic based on your own post. there is nothing wrong with having a disagreement and talking about it with people. lol. Some people like having debate. You think that just because people want to debate things they are egotistical? I don't understand?:confused:

texasdave
09-12-2010, 07:25 PM
Some facts. Out of the top nine relievers in games saved (24 or more) in the N.L, Cordero has the second-worst Save %, the worst WHIP and the worst ERA. He has a lot of saves because the Reds have given him many chances. I think, listening to the games, he has been very lucky not to have a handful or more blown saves.


Name Save% WHIP ERA

Bell 93.0% 1.15 1.67
Frankln 92.3% 1.05 3.55
Wilson 91.3% 1.23 1.80
Capps 86.7% 1.30 2.74
Marmol 85.7% 1.26 2.93
Rodrigz 83.3% 1.15 2.20
Wagner 82.5% 0.87 1.50
Cordero 81.4% 1.50 4.04
Nunez 78.4% 1.34 3.81

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 07:30 PM
Some facts. Out of the top nine relievers in games saved (24 or more) in the N.L, Cordero has the second-worst Save %, the worst WHIP and the worst ERA. He has a lot of saves because the Reds have given him many chances. I think, listening to the games, he has been very lucky not to have a handful or more blown saves.


Name Save% WHIP ERA

Bell 93.0% 1.15 1.67
Frankln 92.3% 1.05 3.55
Wilson 91.3% 1.23 1.80
Capps 86.7% 1.30 2.74
Marmol 85.7% 1.26 2.93
Rodrigz 83.3% 1.15 2.20
Wagner 82.5% 0.87 1.50
Cordero 81.4% 1.50 4.04
Nunez 78.4% 1.34 3.81

Good point... I agree cordero is going to have to be much better for us to go all the way this year. I just dont know if anyone else on our team could be better than 81% of the time. Then again I guess I could be wrong.

PeteRoseBelongs
09-12-2010, 07:43 PM
guys, I just want to see him temporarily out of the situation. Right now he doesn't have it. Closers have a different mentaility. I see a couple of arguments. First and foremost I don't like Dusty Baker as a manager but he isn't going anywhere unless he wants to leave.

Cordero just needs to get his head right. If he gets runners on your fielders are like here we go again. If your Cordero he's probably thinking, "damnit, here we go again"

at some pt you have to put this on your pitching coach and your manager to notice when he doesn't have it and make a move. Your not doing or our team any favors by hoping he figures it out and works his way through it. All he is working right now is no outs walk 1st and second and give up two hits and 2 or 3 runs.

sac up Baker and be a big league manager.

Vottomatic
09-12-2010, 07:43 PM
I especially like your last line here. A post like this on a discussion board. Man you always have an opinion on what other people think and suddenly that is just for arrogant egotistical know it alls. You still can't grasp the point of my post. I think we all know you are out of ammo, it's ok to admit it none of us will think less of you. So there should be no more debating on Redszone, perhaps that can be a rule too right next to the rules for closers.

"We". Last time I checked, you were the only one here trying to "debate" with me.

Do you have a mouse in your pocket? I guess that makes it you and him.

Anyway.........I run into posters like you all the time who want to "debate" opinions and can't accept others opinions.

I think Cordero sucks. I think he blows. You can't accept it so you want to debate me. I don't want to debate it. You're going to use some nonsensical stats or selective stats, and I'm going by the eye test. He sucks period. He has no out pitch. I've seen plenty of Cordero to say this wholeheartedly.

I don't want to debate you because I'm solid in my opinion.

You want to debate because you have a big ego and like to post stuff like "you're out of ammo", blah, blah, blah. I'm not out of ammo. I've spoken my peace. I'm solid in how I feel. In fact, I could care less about what you think, since you're a Cordero apologist.

Next. (I'm reloading my gun with new ammo) :p:

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 07:47 PM
Oxilon makes a good point about Cordero here: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2254646&postcount=183

Francisco Cordero:
63.2 IP: 1.46 WHIP, .242 OPP BA, 3.68 ERA

Now, look back at the five previous World Series winners and their closer's numbers for the season.

Mariano Rivera:
66.1 IP: .90 WHIP, .197 OPP BA, 1.76 ERA

Brad Lidge:
69.1 IP: 1.23 WHIP, .198 OPP BA, 1.95 ERA

Jonathan Papelbon:
58.1 IP: .77 WHIP, .136 OPP BA, 1.85 ERA

Adam Wainwright: (*Isringhausen missed entire Postseason)
9.2 IP: .93 WHIP, .237 OPP BA, 0.00 ERA

Bobby Jenks:
39.1 IP: 1.25 WHIP, .225 OPP BA, 2.75 ERA


I just dont know what the answer is.... try other people out the rest of the year and use someone that is not experienced as a closer in the majors in the playoffs? Or hang with Cordero and pray that he can start doing better in the playoffs?

DocRed
09-12-2010, 07:56 PM
I say give Arthur Rhodes a shot...how many times have we seen him come into "tough" closer-like situations with men on base and get key outs. I think he has the mental outlook to at least be a decent closer.

liminal
09-12-2010, 07:57 PM
Oxilon makes a good point about Cordero here: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2254646&postcount=183

I just dont know what the answer is.... try other people out the rest of the year and use someone that is not experienced as a closer in the majors in the playoffs? Or hang with Cordero and pray that he can start doing better in the playoffs?


Or option 3--hope that Bruce comes back healthy, Rolen, Votto, Phillips etc... get some rest and go into the postseason 100% and what not, and we hope that we beat up opposing pitchers like we did early in the season and don't need a closer...

A long shot, I know. But it would be nice. A guy can dream, no?

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 07:58 PM
I say give Arthur Rhodes a shot...how many times have we seen him come into "tough" closer-like situations with men on base and get key outs. I think he has the mental outlook to at least be a decent closer.

I agree with that to a point. But I just dont think we can run Rhodes out there as much due to his foot.

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 07:59 PM
Or option 3--hope that Bruce comes back healthy, Rolen, Votto, Phillips etc... get some rest and go into the postseason 100% and what not, and we hope that we beat up opposing pitchers like we did early in the season and don't need a closer...

A long shot, I know. But it would be nice. A guy can dream, no?

Im thinking thats the best we can hope for and that maybe Cordero will be on a good run during the post season like he was earlier this year. When he saved 18 of 19.

bagz
09-12-2010, 08:19 PM
Dusty can't and shouldn't let him close. If we want to get anywhere in the playoffs HE CAN'T CLOSE. He doesn't have it anymore. Anybody else is a better option. Smith, Masset and Chapman to name a few. If Dusty won't then management must step in and overide him. They're paying his contract and they're won't be a new one if he doesn't close him down in any means necessary. We're going to play in October for the first time in a decade and can't depend on him. He needs to develop another pitch but now is not the time. Next year we can try and trade him for another bad contract or just EAT THE CONTRACT and put him on waivers.

PhatHead
09-12-2010, 08:35 PM
I never understood the point of a "closer" anyway. Why not go with the hot hand? If Masset or Rhodes or Chapman has a 1-2-3 8th inning then why pull them just to put in a closer? Closer by committee.

PeteRoseBelongs
09-12-2010, 08:35 PM
I would much rather have Massett in the closers role right now over Rhodes. I would like to see Rhodes as his set up man or rotate those two guys. But again I would say if you want to shake up the baseball world and you want some great energy for the conclusion of this season and into the playoffs, should the Reds decide it best to actually make an effort to hold onto this lead, then give the damn ball to Chapman in the 9th and lets get this thing done.

757690
09-12-2010, 09:22 PM
The biggest problem with Cordero is that he no longer has an "out" pitch. That is essential for a closer. Rivera pretty much only throws his "out" pitch, his cutter (over 80% of the time). Sparky Lyle claimed he only threw his cutter his whole career.

Cordero used to throw his slider around 50% of the time. This year and last, around 25% of the time. It used to have a sharp break downward, but according to PitchFX, it's breaking less than half as much as it used to.

This is very common for pitchers around his age. It's why you don't give a 33 year old closer a 4 year deal. Ever.

So basically, he no longer has the stuff to be a reliable closer. I think anyone who watched the games this season could have come to the same conclusion.

But I really don't think it's essential for the Reds to take him out of the closer role in order to make the playoffs, or even do well in the postseason.

Being a successful closer is mostly luck, as Cordero has proven this season. He has been one of the worst closers in the league in terms of stats that reflect talent, K/9, BB/9, WHIP, HR/9. And yet, he is third in the league in saves. He can be effective, even for long stretches, but overall, he's just not as reliable as he should be.

And once you get to the playoffs, luck really has more to do with being a successful closer than talent. Just ask Dennis Eckersley.

If the Reds had any other choices that were significantly more reliable, I would be in favor of replacing Cordero. But they really don't.

They have some decent options, but all of them have issues.

Rhodes has been tried as a closer a few times in the past and has imploded. So much so that he is on record as saying that he doesn't want to close ever again.

Masset has been more reliable than Cordero, but not by much. He also doesn't seem to be able to handle pressure that well. I think the steal of home against him this weekend is a perfect example of that. If he were calm and collective, like a true closer in pressure situations, he would have been able to react to the runner and throw him out with ease. Looking back over the season, he just seems to get nervous when the pressure is high. Some times he gets out of it, but it seem to mostly be by luck. He's not a terrible choice, but I don't have so much more faith in him than Cordero to justify a switch.

Chapman is still in single digits in his innings a major leaguer. He definitely has the stuff, and seems to have the mentality, but it is way too soon to know for sure. I wouldn't be against trying him once or twice to close games, but he is such a valuable talent, that I don't want to mess him up by putting too much pressure on him this early in his career. The Cardinals put Rick Ankiel in a high pressure situation when he was a rookie and that didn't turn out too well.

Ondrusek and Smith could be closers in the future, but I'm not so sure they are ready to close right now.

So it's not like I want Cordero to continue to close games for the Reds, I just don't think his is that much worse of an option than what is available. Maybe try Chapman, and if he does well keep him as the closer. But if he fails, will he be able to bounce back? I'm not sure that is a risk I want to take.

757690
09-12-2010, 09:26 PM
Dusty can't and shouldn't let him close. If we want to get anywhere in the playoffs HE CAN'T CLOSE. He doesn't have it anymore. Anybody else is a better option. Smith, Masset and Chapman to name a few. If Dusty won't then management must step in and overide him. They're paying his contract and they're won't be a new one if he doesn't close him down in any means necessary. We're going to play in October for the first time in a decade and can't depend on him. He needs to develop another pitch but now is not the time. Next year we can try and trade him for another bad contract or just EAT THE CONTRACT and put him on waivers.

I think really the only way Cordero loses his closer role is if Walt is able to put him on the DL. Walt might just do that. But if Cordero is on the roster, Dusty will keep him as the closer. Loyalty is one of Dusty's biggest strengths and biggest weaknesses.

RedsLvr
09-12-2010, 10:59 PM
I don't see one valid reason as to why Cordero is not the best option we have at the moment unless we want to literally throw millions of dollars out the door or if we want to throw games away using pitchers on our current rosters as a closer.

Hustleman
09-12-2010, 11:09 PM
I never understood the point of a "closer" anyway. Why not go with the hot hand? If Masset or Rhodes or Chapman has a 1-2-3 8th inning then why pull them just to put in a closer? Closer by committee.

agreed.

Stray
09-12-2010, 11:09 PM
It can't be Rhodes, since he cannot pitch as often as a closer needs to.

The only other options would be Masset or Chapman, and I'm not sure I feel comfortable making the switch to either this late in the year. I agree that Cordero sucks, don't get me wrong, but I almost feel like at this point we have to stick with it.

He had been pretty good for a while there, and now is back to being bad like usual. It's just a bad situation, and I hope he figures it out at the right time, since if we're going to make any noise in the postseason he has to be the anchor. I get that feeling that this year ends on a blown Coco save though.

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 11:17 PM
Lance Mcalister had this to say about Cordero and I totally agree:

Here is what I don't get
Most often asked question to me today:
"So...how you are you going to defend Francisco Cordero today?"
Answer: I'm not.
How can I defend a guy that didn't do his job? He was handed the ball in the 9th with a 1-0 lead and was asked to get three outs. He allowed three runs.
But the difference between me and a lot of fans when it comes to Coco is perspective.
Do I defend him? Sure....when it's deserved.
Like when he was saving 11 in a row and 18 of 19 and was still getting ripped.
Like when he was asked to pitch on five days rest and was rusty and got ripped.
Fans NEVER cut Coco slack...ever. And it hurts my head.
It's such a knee jerk, ignore the facts and circumstances reaction.
I get to hear and read that he "almost" blew a game. Or that his ERA or WHIP is too high.
It's just so silly. Did he get the save or not?
Coco blew his first game in 63 days Friday night and the result was everyone said he sucks.
Fans don't bother to understand that Billy Wagner and Houston Street had blown four saves in that same span.
Or that Brian Wilson and Brad Lidge had two blown saves each.
Nobody points outs, besides me, that Mariano Rivera hit a batter with the bases loaded to lose a game Saturday.
What really tickles me is that I point out those facts and I'm called an apologist.
If I'm the apologist for knowing and stating that...what does that make the fans that don't know that and don't accept that as perspective? Just be fair.
Fans want Coco to be perfect. He's not. And when he shows imperfection the fan response is to change closers. It doesn't work that way. I've said since April the Reds will go as far as Coco and Massett will take them...and that might not be far enough. But like it or not....Coco is their closer today, tomorrow and the next day. There is not another option. Just the facts. It's up to fans to accept that or not.

Source: http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html

DocRed
09-12-2010, 11:39 PM
Lance and his selective stats...give me a break. So he saved 11 in a row...big deal. Even the worst closer in a game has a 75-80% conversion rate...this means he is likely to have stretches where he will save 8,9 or 10+ in a row. Another guy who just doesn't get it.

Let's put this another way...I could just as easily say Coco is 0/2 in his last 2 save opportunities! How in the world can u have a closer who has a 0% conversion rate?!?!

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 11:45 PM
Lance and his selective stats...give me a break. So he saved 11 in a row...big deal. Even the worst closer in a game has a 75-80% conversion rate...this means he is likely to have stretches where he will save 8,9 or 10+ in a row. Another guy who just doesn't get it.

Well maybe this is just another stupid stat. But out of Corderos 66 games he has appeared in we have only lost 8. Not saying Cordero is one of the best closers but he sure isnt as bad as people make him out to be.

ThornWithin81
09-12-2010, 11:48 PM
Well maybe this is just another stupid stat. But out of Corderos 66 games he has appeared in we have only lost 8. Not saying Cordero is one of the best closers but he sure isnt as bad as people make him out to be.

Losing 8 games in 66 appearances with a closer is pretty bad, IMO.

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 11:49 PM
Let's put this another way...I could just as easily say Coco is 0/2 in his last 2 save opportunities! How in the world can u have a closer who has a 0% conversion rate?!?!

Coco was lights out last night when I was a the game though and went 1-2-3 not a save though it was a tie game. But he held it at a tie game in the 9th.

markedmanner
09-12-2010, 11:53 PM
Losing 8 games in 66 appearances with a closer is pretty bad, IMO.

Well I guess Brian Wilson of the giants is bad to them. The Giants have lost 9 of the 61 games he appeared in.

DocRed
09-12-2010, 11:53 PM
Here you go Lance McCallister check this stat out...

Jonathan Broxton had a streak of 18 straight saves..you would think his save % is in the 90's right? It's 78.6%!! Worse than Coco's....Torre had the sense to remove him from his closer role.

Once again, if you are so short-sighted not to look at the entire picture then your argument fails.

DocRed
09-12-2010, 11:55 PM
Well maybe this is just another stupid stat. But out of Corderos 66 games he has appeared in we have only lost 8. Not saying Cordero is one of the best closers but he sure isnt as bad as people make him out to be.

Actually we have lost 10 of 67 games he has appeared in...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=4139

markedmanner
09-13-2010, 12:00 AM
Actually we have lost 10 of 67 games he has appeared in...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=4139

You are correct. it is 10. As I stated Brian Wilson the Giants have lost 9 of the 61 games he appeared in. Heath Bell 7 of 57 they have lost. Cordero 10 of 67

DocRed
09-13-2010, 12:08 AM
Let me also say this...I don't think Cordero is the worst or even one of the 5 worst closers in the game. But the stats show that he is probably in the bottom 6-10. To me that is just not good enough for a playoff team.

Add in the money he is paid and well.....

GIDP
09-13-2010, 01:17 AM
Reds starters gave up 9 hits in 21 innings
Cordero gave up 7 in 2.1 IP

Enough said.

GIDP
09-13-2010, 01:20 AM
Save % is a silly silly stat. 1 run saves count the same as a 3 run save. Give me Broxton, Bell, Wilson and any other reliever who doesnt give up base runners over someone who gives up a walk, and 2 singles every other inning.

kfm
09-13-2010, 01:58 AM
"We". Last time I checked, you were the only one here trying to "debate" with me.

Do you have a mouse in your pocket? I guess that makes it you and him.

Anyway.........I run into posters like you all the time who want to "debate" opinions and can't accept others opinions.

I think Cordero sucks. I think he blows. You can't accept it so you want to debate me. I don't want to debate it. You're going to use some nonsensical stats or selective stats, and I'm going by the eye test. He sucks period. He has no out pitch. I've seen plenty of Cordero to say this wholeheartedly.

I don't want to debate you because I'm solid in my opinion.

You want to debate because you have a big ego and like to post stuff like "you're out of ammo", blah, blah, blah. I'm not out of ammo. I've spoken my peace. I'm solid in how I feel. In fact, I could care less about what you think, since you're a Cordero apologist.

Next. (I'm reloading my gun with new ammo) :p:

Wow, more attacking of my position yet I am the only one debating. Perhaps you should look up debate in a dictionary, you may be surprised. You come on here all the time and disagree with people and attack their points of view yet, only when people do this to you is it "debating". Could that be a double standard? I completely and totally accept your opinion,I just don't think much of it. Basbeball is a game of stats, and while I know this suggestion will be lost on an "eye test" guy like yourself, why don't you learn a few of these stats. That way you will not have to go into full retreat and name calling mode when you post something so void of facts that it makes me kind of feel sorry for you. Believe me when I say this, I have read many of your post and based upon that I will question my opinion if it is ever the same as yours. BTW, I love how you call me a Cordero apologist simply because I don't agree with your "eye test" opinion and because you and I both know you are unable to respond to my post. Is that another rule, either you agree with everything Vottomatic thinks or you are against him. Nice simple world of absolutes, man I bet that is comforting to you.

malcontent
09-13-2010, 08:45 AM
Save % is a silly silly stat. 1 run saves count the same as a 3 run save. Give me Broxton, Bell, Wilson and any other reliever who doesnt give up base runners over someone who gives up a walk, and 2 singles every other inning.
Excellent point.

GIDP
09-13-2010, 09:55 AM
Reds starters gave up 9 hits in 21 innings
Cordero gave up 7 in 2.1 IP

Enough said.

BTW this also includes a scoreless, and hit-less inning in the 2nd game of the series, which funny enough wasnt a save situation.

So in Corderos 2 save chances he pitched 1.1 IP and gave up 7 hits and 1 walk, and 5 runs.

He also didnt strike out a batter in the series where the starters struck out 26 in 21 innings.

The starters gave up 3 walks in 21 innings as well.

Cordero turned the Pirates into the best team in baseball when he was in the game.

GIDP
09-13-2010, 11:00 AM
While I'm quoting all these stats what annoys me more than anything is this quote from Cordero.


“I just need to put a pitch in a better place in that situation….He just threw the barrel of the bat on it and it went over the third baseman’s head. It’s not like I was pitching to my little boy. That’s a big-league hitter.”

He completely seems to ignore that fact that the bases got loaded some how. Yes Mccutchen is a good player, and good players get hits. You didnt blow that save because you gave up 1 hit.

Those same big league hitters scored 1 run against big league starters over 21 innings, sadly he appears to not be a big league pitcher.

Orodle
09-13-2010, 11:07 AM
it makes too much sense to remove Cordero from save situations and thats why it will not be done.

athinnes
09-13-2010, 11:36 AM
I'm not sure if completely removing him from the closer spot is the solution YET. I do believe the guy needs a much shorter leash. Give him a batter or two. If he can't handle it, pull him right away. Trusting him to come through after giving up a leadoff single then walking two guys should no longer be a option.

Maybe do this one or two times, and if he still looks bad, replace him. As much as I really dislike the guy, and think he deserves 1/10th of his salary, I think he deserves a little middle ground before we shut him down for good.

GIDP
09-13-2010, 12:16 PM
I'm not sure if completely removing him from the closer spot is the solution YET. I do believe the guy needs a much shorter leash. Give him a batter or two. If he can't handle it, pull him right away. Trusting him to come through after giving up a leadoff single then walking two guys should no longer be a option.

Maybe do this one or two times, and if he still looks bad, replace him. As much as I really dislike the guy, and think he deserves 1/10th of his salary, I think he deserves a little middle ground before we shut him down for good.

Agree basically.

If Cordero gives up 2 base runners before he gets 2 outs you have to yank him.

markedmanner
09-13-2010, 12:26 PM
I'm not sure if completely removing him from the closer spot is the solution YET. I do believe the guy needs a much shorter leash. Give him a batter or two. If he can't handle it, pull him right away. Trusting him to come through after giving up a leadoff single then walking two guys should no longer be a option.

I agree with this pretty much. Give Cordero a chance to close it. Which he has the majority of the time this year. I give him a bit more of a chance in the regular season for the rest of the year. In the playoffs though I say if he walks one and then gives up a hit in a 1 or 2 run game. I pull him more than likely for smith or Masset probably. When Cordero doesnt have it you can tell in the first couple batters.

Fon Duc Tow
09-13-2010, 12:47 PM
Here is how it will go:

Reds make the playoffs.

Win 2 playoff games decisively
Lose 2 playoff games decisively
then it will be 3-1 Reds in the 9th and CoCo will blow it.

Then, people will talk about how it is a team game, and how if the Reds would have been up 5 runs instead of 2 that this would have never happened.

Then, CoCo will be replaced in the offseason.


I hate to say it, but Cordero will sink the Reds ship in the playoffs, and there is nothing really that can be done about it. Just chalk it up to the best season the Reds have had in a long while, and hopefully something to build on for next season.

markedmanner
09-13-2010, 12:54 PM
Here is how it will go:

Reds make the playoffs.

Win 2 playoff games decisively
Lose 2 playoff games decisively
then it will be 3-1 Reds in the 9th and CoCo will blow it.

Then, people will talk about how it is a team game, and how if the Reds would have been up 5 runs instead of 2 that this would have never happened.

Then, CoCo will be replaced in the offseason.


I hate to say it, but Cordero will sink the Reds ship in the playoffs, and there is nothing really that can be done about it. Just chalk it up to the best season the Reds have had in a long while, and hopefully something to build on for next season.

How are you sure Cordero will be bad? How do you know he will blow a game at all? Maybe he will be on a good roll like he was when he saved 18 of 19 games in a row. Or is that totally impossible?

redssince75
09-13-2010, 12:56 PM
I never understood the point of a "closer" anyway. Why not go with the hot hand? If Masset or Rhodes or Chapman has a 1-2-3 8th inning then why pull them just to put in a closer? Closer by committee.




agreed.

Third. Motion is carried.

redssince75
09-13-2010, 01:00 PM
Lance Mcalister had this to say about Cordero and I totally agree:

Here is what I don't get
Most often asked question to me today:
"So...how you are you going to defend Francisco Cordero today?"
Answer: I'm not.
How can I defend a guy that didn't do his job? He was handed the ball in the 9th with a 1-0 lead and was asked to get three outs. He allowed three runs.
But the difference between me and a lot of fans when it comes to Coco is perspective.
Do I defend him? Sure....when it's deserved.
Like when he was saving 11 in a row and 18 of 19 and was still getting ripped.
Like when he was asked to pitch on five days rest and was rusty and got ripped.
Fans NEVER cut Coco slack...ever. And it hurts my head.
It's such a knee jerk, ignore the facts and circumstances reaction.
I get to hear and read that he "almost" blew a game. Or that his ERA or WHIP is too high.
It's just so silly. Did he get the save or not?
Coco blew his first game in 63 days Friday night and the result was everyone said he sucks.
Fans don't bother to understand that Billy Wagner and Houston Street had blown four saves in that same span.
Or that Brian Wilson and Brad Lidge had two blown saves each.
Nobody points outs, besides me, that Mariano Rivera hit a batter with the bases loaded to lose a game Saturday.
What really tickles me is that I point out those facts and I'm called an apologist.
If I'm the apologist for knowing and stating that...what does that make the fans that don't know that and don't accept that as perspective? Just be fair.
Fans want Coco to be perfect. He's not. And when he shows imperfection the fan response is to change closers. It doesn't work that way. I've said since April the Reds will go as far as Coco and Massett will take them...and that might not be far enough. But like it or not....Coco is their closer today, tomorrow and the next day. There is not another option. Just the facts. It's up to fans to accept that or not.

Source: http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html

That's about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. It completely sounds like a guy who gets his information about baseball from reading stat lines only.

I know Francisco Cordero. I have watched Francisco Cordero all year. I went to the game in person yesterday. I don't care HOW his "stats" stack up against other closers (please don't even quote them), I DO know that he provides absolutely no confidence that he will shut down the opposing team for 1 inning. THIS IS THE CLOSER'S JOB. Do the "stats" count how many saves have been credited to FC when he DIDN'T shut down the other team? No, they don't. Forget the stats.

Completely shut down the other team for 1 INNING. THEY MIGHT AS WELL WALK UP THERE WITH WIFFLE BALL BATS. This is the closer's job. And FC doesn't remotely come close to filling it.

athinnes
09-13-2010, 01:16 PM
That's about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. It completely sounds like a guy who gets his information about baseball from reading stat lines only.

I know Francisco Cordero. I have watched Francisco Cordero all year. I went to the game in person yesterday. I don't care HOW his "stats" stack up against other closers (please don't even quote them), I DO know that he provides absolutely no confidence that he will shut down the opposing team for 1 inning. THIS IS THE CLOSER'S JOB. Do the "stats" count how many saves have been credited to FC when he DIDN'T shut down the other team? No, they don't. Forget the stats.

Completely shut down the other team for 1 INNING. THEY MIGHT AS WELL WALK UP THERE WITH WIFFLE BALL BATS. This is the closer's job. And FC doesn't remotely come close to filling it.

Also, I think the fact he was up against The Pirates at home says something about his lack of effectiveness at the moment. That's a pretty bad ballclub right there.

Vottomatic
09-13-2010, 07:18 PM
Wow, more attacking of my position yet I am the only one debating. Perhaps you should look up debate in a dictionary, you may be surprised. You come on here all the time and disagree with people and attack their points of view yet, only when people do this to you is it "debating". Could that be a double standard?

No, it's a hypocrite. Same as you are. :eek:



I completely and totally accept your opinion,I just don't think much of it.

Cool. I don't think much of yours either. Nice. :eek:


Basbeball is a game of stats, and while I know this suggestion will be lost on an "eye test" guy like yourself, why don't you learn a few of these stats. That way you will not have to go into full retreat and name calling mode when you post something so void of facts that it makes me kind of feel sorry for you.

I've posted many fact-filled posts. Go back and check every one of my 1700+ posts and do a breakdown on how many have stats and how many are eye-test posts, then get back to me. Hopefully, it will take you a long, long time. :D

I called you genius. If I was namecalling, I'd have said idiot. You should have been flattered. :p:

Don't feel sorry for me. I'm doing just great.


Believe me when I say this,

Not sure I believe you, but hey, go ahead........



I have read many of your post and based upon that I will question my opinion if it is ever the same as yours.


Congratulations on learning to read. :beerme:



BTW, I love how you

Woh! You had me scared there. I thought you were going to tell me you loved me. :confused:


call me a Cordero apologist simply because I don't agree with your "eye test" opinion and because you and I both know you are unable to respond to my post.

I think I did just respond to your post. I think I have over and over and over and we're not getting anywhere. :eek:




Is that another rule, either you agree with everything Vottomatic thinks or you are against him. Nice simple world of absolutes, man I bet that is comforting to you.

Rule #1: Agree with everything Vottomatic says and life will be awesome. ;)

Have a nice day. :thumbup:

kfm
09-13-2010, 07:58 PM
No, it's a hypocrite. Same as you are. :eek:




Cool. I don't think much of yours either. Nice. :eek:



I've posted many fact-filled posts. Go back and check every one of my 1700+ posts and do a breakdown on how many have stats and how many are eye-test posts, then get back to me. Hopefully, it will take you a long, long time. :D

I called you genius. If I was namecalling, I'd have said idiot. You should have been flattered. :p:

Don't feel sorry for me. I'm doing just great.



Not sure I believe you, but hey, go ahead........




Congratulations on learning to read. :beerme:




Woh! You had me scared there. I thought you were going to tell me you loved me. :confused:



I think I did just respond to your post. I think I have over and over and over and we're not getting anywhere. :eek:





Rule #1: Agree with everything Vottomatic says and life will be awesome. ;)

Have a nice day. :thumbup:

OK big guy. This could go on forever, and as much as I have enjoyed our intellectual tit for tat this is actually not the reason I come onto the board. I love to talk about the Reds and I love to discuss my team with fans of my team and even some of the trolls from other teams. While I have been entertained by some of your responses, this has gone way too far on both sides. My intention was to just engage in some discussion about why you felt a certain way and then you might want to hear why I felt a certain way. This is what I thought this board was all about. This is what I think happens on this board constantly all day every day. I understand that we both have strong opinions and I understand that neither of us thinks much of the other guy's opinion, and it is pretty clear that neither of us could care less that the other feels this way. So I think we should just put this behind us and start over. I don't know you and you don't know me but I know three things we have in common, we both love the Reds, we both have strong opinions and both of us could care less what others think of us.

ILoveWilly
09-13-2010, 08:07 PM
Lance Mcalister had this to say about Cordero and I totally agree:

Here is what I don't get
Most often asked question to me today:
"So...how you are you going to defend Francisco Cordero today?"
Answer: I'm not.
How can I defend a guy that didn't do his job? He was handed the ball in the 9th with a 1-0 lead and was asked to get three outs. He allowed three runs.
But the difference between me and a lot of fans when it comes to Coco is perspective.
Do I defend him? Sure....when it's deserved.
Like when he was saving 11 in a row and 18 of 19 and was still getting ripped.
Like when he was asked to pitch on five days rest and was rusty and got ripped.
Fans NEVER cut Coco slack...ever. And it hurts my head.
It's such a knee jerk, ignore the facts and circumstances reaction.
I get to hear and read that he "almost" blew a game. Or that his ERA or WHIP is too high.
It's just so silly. Did he get the save or not?
Coco blew his first game in 63 days Friday night and the result was everyone said he sucks.
Fans don't bother to understand that Billy Wagner and Houston Street had blown four saves in that same span.
Or that Brian Wilson and Brad Lidge had two blown saves each.
Nobody points outs, besides me, that Mariano Rivera hit a batter with the bases loaded to lose a game Saturday.
What really tickles me is that I point out those facts and I'm called an apologist.
If I'm the apologist for knowing and stating that...what does that make the fans that don't know that and don't accept that as perspective? Just be fair.
Fans want Coco to be perfect. He's not. And when he shows imperfection the fan response is to change closers. It doesn't work that way. I've said since April the Reds will go as far as Coco and Massett will take them...and that might not be far enough. But like it or not....Coco is their closer today, tomorrow and the next day. There is not another option. Just the facts. It's up to fans to accept that or not.

Source: http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html

That's a stupid statement. Cordero is HORRIBLE. A closer by definition is someone you go to to shut a game down for you. Not someone you goto to cross your fingers and hope survives. That logic doesn't fly, AT ALL.

Vottomatic
09-13-2010, 08:52 PM
OK big guy. This could go on forever, and as much as I have enjoyed our intellectual tit for tat this is actually not the reason I come onto the board. I love to talk about the Reds and I love to discuss my team with fans of my team and even some of the trolls from other teams. While I have been entertained by some of your responses, this has gone way too far on both sides. My intention was to just engage in some discussion about why you felt a certain way and then you might want to hear why I felt a certain way. This is what I thought this board was all about. This is what I think happens on this board constantly all day every day. I understand that we both have strong opinions and I understand that neither of us thinks much of the other guy's opinion, and it is pretty clear that neither of us could care less that the other feels this way. So I think we should just put this behind us and start over. I don't know you and you don't know me but I know three things we have in common, we both love the Reds, we both have strong opinions and both of us could care less what others think of us.

:beerme:

mlh1981
09-13-2010, 10:56 PM
I haven't read over the entire thread, but IF you yank Cordero and replace him with someone else to close, who do you then turn to if the new guy can't get it done? How much rope would you give the new closer?

redssince75
09-16-2010, 10:39 AM
Do the "stats" count how many saves have been credited to FC when he DIDN'T shut down the other team? No, they don't. Forget the stats.



:cool:

Old NDN
09-16-2010, 11:54 AM
I like the idea of a shorter leash for Cordero, BUT, this also means restructuring your bullpen order. You have to hold somebody back in case FC doesn't do the job. Masset? Chapman? Ondrusek? Not sure how this would play out at this late date. Unfortunately, I think it's too late to tinker. But, like many on here, I have no confidence in FC anymore. When he does get a save, it's usually an adventure. Anyone who throws as hard as he does (according to the radar: 95-97) should be getting better results. Predictable? Tipping pitches? Location? All possibilities.

CrosleyField
09-17-2010, 08:42 AM
Codero is the best we got. He drives me crazy. Has had some wild saves. Blown some saves. But still at the end of the day, he is the best closer in the Reds organization. Maybe Chapman is it next year, but right now whether we like it or not its Codero. And by the way he is not the only reliever to blow a save this year. I have even seen Masset allow some go ahead runs in the last month.

DocRed
09-17-2010, 12:39 PM
Codero is the best we got. He drives me crazy. Has had some wild saves. Blown some saves. But still at the end of the day, he is the best closer in the Reds organization. Maybe Chapman is it next year, but right now whether we like it or not its Codero. And by the way he is not the only reliever to blow a save this year. I have even seen Masset allow some go ahead runs in the last month.

Although technically they were "blown saves"....they should be more accurately described as "blown holds". Dusty doesn't give true save opportunities to anyone other than Coco. The 2 saves Masset does have this year were after Coco blew saves and he had to bail him out.

redssince75
09-17-2010, 02:00 PM
Codero is the best we got. He drives me crazy. Has had some wild saves. Blown some saves. But still at the end of the day, he is the best closer in the Reds organization. Maybe Chapman is it next year, but right now whether we like it or not its Codero. And by the way he is not the only reliever to blow a save this year. I have even seen Masset allow some go ahead runs in the last month.

How in the world do you (or Dusty) know he's the "best we've got"? Empirically, you can't say that until we've tried Masset, Chapman, Rhodes, Ondrusek, Bray, Smith, Harang, Leake etc etc etc in the closer's role, and they have all done worse than FC.

Captain13
09-17-2010, 02:09 PM
Codero is the best we got. He drives me crazy. Has had some wild saves. Blown some saves. But still at the end of the day, he is the best closer in the Reds organization. Maybe Chapman is it next year, but right now whether we like it or not its Codero. And by the way he is not the only reliever to blow a save this year. I have even seen Masset allow some go ahead runs in the last month.

Masset has 2 blown saves this year, and Rhodes has 2 blown saves this year. Those numbers pale in comparison to the 8 for CoCo. On a side note, Chapman is listed with 2 holds and 1 blown save in 3 opportunities.

CrosleyField
09-17-2010, 02:40 PM
How in the world do you (or Dusty) know he's the "best we've got"? Empirically, you can't say that until we've tried Masset, Chapman, Rhodes, Ondrusek, Bray, Smith, Harang, Leake etc etc etc in the closer's role, and they have all done worse than FC.


So we should experiment with a new closer in the playoffs? I hate having to defend Codero but he, right now, is the best we got.

DocRed
09-17-2010, 03:49 PM
So we should experiment with a new closer in the playoffs? I hate having to defend Codero but he, right now, is the best we got.

No but why not experiment in the last 15 games we have left? Is this not the perfect opportunity? 15 games left...and the pennant is pretty much locked up. It's no risk. How can it get any more perfect than that?

Captain13
09-17-2010, 03:57 PM
No but why not experiment in the last 15 games we have left? Is this not the perfect opportunity? 15 games left...and the pennant is pretty much locked up. It's no risk. How can it get any more perfect than that?

Like Dusty said, what do tell CoCo? "Your not my guy anymore because you stink and can't get anyone out." Then if it doesn't work, you come back and say "Oopls, I was wrong. You the man, I need you." Doesn't sound like good people-managing to me. I think that part of the game gets overlooked sometimes.

Vottomatic
09-22-2010, 12:01 AM
Absolutely still amazes me that Cordero is still our closer.

757690
09-22-2010, 12:07 AM
Absolutely still amazes me that Cordero is still our closer.

I don't like it, but there really is no better option at this point.

Masset might be better, but he's choked a bunch this year
Rhodes is hurt and hates closing
Chapman is too inexperienced, as evident by the other night
Ondrusek and Smith aren't experienced nor that much better than Cordero.

redsrolen
09-22-2010, 12:17 AM
I don't like it, but there really is no better option at this point.

Masset might be better, but he's choked a bunch this year
Rhodes is hurt and hates closing
Chapman is too inexperienced, as evident by the other night
Ondrusek and Smith aren't experienced nor that much better than Cordero.

I can't believe I'm saying this, "I think you're right???":confused:

Vottomatic
09-22-2010, 12:35 AM
Isn't it worth trying another option?

DocRed
09-22-2010, 11:46 AM
Cordero has given up runs in 4 of his last 6 outtings. His ERA is 8.59 with a WHIP of 2.0 in September, his. It's pretty sad if we don't have any better options than that.

texasdave
09-22-2010, 11:52 AM
We have better options. "No better option" is just a canard.

mlh1981
09-22-2010, 11:55 AM
Better be a real short leash in the playoffs.

Can't worry about "hurting feelings."

I say he's the best bet, b/c if a replacement screw up, then what?

texasdave
09-22-2010, 11:57 AM
Does anyone honestly not believe that if CoCo was replaced and the other guy didn't work out that CoCo wouldn't jump at the chance of being named closer again?

jmbraun773
09-22-2010, 12:13 PM
Absolutely still amazes me that Cordero is still our closer.

Yeah, especially since he didn't get the save last night. Oh wait, he did, even with two errors on Bruce in the same play.

To me, it doesn't matter how he gets the save, it's just the fact that he gets it. He had a little rough patch, but if I recall correctly he has a couple in a row now.

Old NDN
09-22-2010, 01:25 PM
Maybe Coco needs a "rest". Once they clinch, maybe let somebody else "fill in", to have him ready for the playoffs.

DocRed
09-22-2010, 03:26 PM
Yeah, especially since he didn't get the save last night. Oh wait, he did, even with two errors on Bruce in the same play.

To me, it doesn't matter how he gets the save, it's just the fact that he gets it. He had a little rough patch, but if I recall correctly he has a couple in a row now.

Bruce did not have 2 errors he had 1. The 2nd error was on Cordero which was the one that allowed the unearned run to score....so he kinda earned that one too in my book

jmbraun773
09-22-2010, 04:09 PM
My mistake I thought they said it was 2 on Bruce, but regardless he got the job done and that is all that matters.

Vottomatic
09-22-2010, 05:15 PM
Let's see.......in Cordero's last 6 appearances, he's pitched 5.1 innings, given up 11 hits, 7 earned runs, 1 walk, and 3 K's.

But he got 3 saves, and that's all that matters. Gee, I'm starting to get it now. :rolleyes:

redssince75
09-23-2010, 03:05 PM
My mistake I thought they said it was 2 on Bruce, but regardless he got the job done and that is all that matters.

No it's not.