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RedsMan3203
08-16-2010, 01:00 AM
I believe all of us was in shock to see Votto ejected so quickly from today's game. He kept his head down and talked to the ump while getting back in the box... No big deal...

Well, I guess Votto was getting in the ear of Rayburn while on deck in the Bruce AB.


Votto, the NL’s top hitter at .322, was ejected by plate umpire D.J. Reyburn after disagreeing with a called strike—his fourth ejection in the last two seasons for arguing balls-and-strikes. Baker said Votto had complained about a strike call to Jay Bruce(notes) when he was on deck.

RedsManRick
08-16-2010, 01:31 AM
Unless Votto used some very choice language, I find it hard to believe he was tossed before Reyburn gave him a very clear "you'd be wise to shut your moth". That said, what we would be saying about Votto if he were a Cardinal. He needs to learn to keep his temper in check. There's some major boiling going on behind the usually calm exterior.

sabometrics
08-16-2010, 05:28 AM
Still seemed very quick on the trigger. Unless it was some truly despicable language being used, being thrown out in your first AB is just not done. It's remarkable that after the brawl so early in the Reds/Cards game the umps had the understanding to not adversely impact the game by tossing players so early, but today Votto is given the hook for such a (relatively) petty offense. One situation where imo the ump has to put his ego in his back pocket for that AB and then catch him later if the player is still out of line (and it usually does continue).

cumberlandreds
08-16-2010, 08:46 AM
Unless Votto was just cursing him a blue streak the ejection was way out of line. I'm not a lip reader so I couldn't tell what he was saying and I don't think there was a good shot of him either with his lips moving.

OesterPoster
08-16-2010, 09:22 AM
Probably called him a hoser, eh?

RedLegSuperStar
08-16-2010, 09:41 AM
Votto just doesn't strike me as that type of guy. No pun intended. At Redsfest Votto was by far the best player I met. That means absolutly nothing I know.

NJReds
08-16-2010, 09:50 AM
If he was complaining on the on deck circle while Bruce was batting, then started up again while hitting, I'm cutting the ump some slack. You can't argue balls and strikes. Sounds like he went over the line even though he wasn't demonstrative.

I'm a big Joey Votto fan, but he's got to keep quiet and stay in games. Especially with the team in a pennant race.

PuffyPig
08-16-2010, 09:56 AM
Unless we know what exactly was said, we have no idea if the ejection was justifiable.

Just becuase he didn't "show him up" doesn't give him carte blache to say anything he wants.

SunDeck
08-16-2010, 10:18 AM
I think it was a message sender, an ump telling him that he hasn't paid enough dues yet to mouth off. He may be a wicked good hitter, but he is still a relative newcomer.

nate
08-16-2010, 10:19 AM
I think it was a message sender, an ump telling him that he hasn't paid enough dues yet to mouth off. He may be a wicked good hitter, but he is still a relative newcomer.

Wasn't the ump a callup from AAA himself?

RANDY IN INDY
08-16-2010, 10:21 AM
After the game on Reds live, Dusty said that Joey didn't say the "word" in a "you" context. He said that Votto said it in the context that the umpire was "doing it" to him.

RichRed
08-16-2010, 10:26 AM
Votto should know that you just don't argue balls and strikes. He complained, then kept talking while his head was down at the plate, practically begging the umpire to toss him. I love Joey Votto but it's hard to argue in his favor on this one.

oneupper
08-16-2010, 10:37 AM
Unless there's a suspension, which is unlikely, no reason to sweat this. Reds won and Joey got to rest in the shade.

I was traveling during game time and managed to pull up the box score on my BB. When I saw Votto was out (with a 0-0-0-0 line), I wondered if he was injured. Later I saw he was ejected. YES! :)

kaldaniels
08-16-2010, 10:43 AM
No sense to rake the ump over the coals on this one...none of us knows what Votto said.

Reds Fanatic
08-16-2010, 10:48 AM
Wasn't the ump a callup from AAA himself?

Yes I believe that is right. In fact Marty said this ump is known for having a short fuse in the minors. Last year he ejected the same manager for the Marlins AAA team 5 times including one day when he ejected the manager in each game of a double header.

westofyou
08-16-2010, 10:56 AM
No sense to rake the ump over the coals on this one...none of us knows what Votto said.

Nope, we do know it's the 4th time he's been tossed for arguing balls and strikes and that stigma is on him (not the umps) at this juncture.

Nasty_Boy
08-16-2010, 10:59 AM
I was reminded of Bull Durham when this happend... "Joey musta called him a cork soaker!"

jojo
08-16-2010, 11:06 AM
A plausible scenario might be this.... he was arguing balls a strikes from the on deck circle and was told to zip it... then when he started up again in the batters box, the ump rang him...

Just because Votto wasn't demonstrative doesn't mean shouldn't have been rung up... the bar is he argued after a warning so if the above scenario was accurate, he might have expected to be tossed.

While that's a hypothetical based upon the above quote, it does seem clear that Votto argues balls and strikes a lot and he's probably earned a reputation which might translate into more of a hair trigger for the ump.... Votto has to own that part of the issue IMHO.

OesterPoster
08-16-2010, 11:10 AM
From Paulino's point-of-view:


Quick hook: Marlins catcher Ronny Paulino said he did not hear what Joey Votto said to home-plate umpire D.J. Reyburn that resulted in the Reds slugger being ejected in the first inning.

"I didn't pay any attention," Paulino said. "It surprised me. I didn't hear anything."

Paulino was asked what he heard after the ejection.

"When he got thrown out, I walked to the mound," he said. "It was none of my business."

jojo
08-16-2010, 11:15 AM
From Paulino's point-of-view:

And that is how a pro should answer that question..... :thumbup:

backbencher
08-16-2010, 11:19 AM
Nope, we do know it's the 4th time he's been tossed for arguing balls and strikes and that stigma is on him (not the umps) at this juncture.

Agreed.

Love Votto, but if he's ejected four times for arguing, then perhaps he needs to find another way to communicate.

nate
08-16-2010, 11:22 AM
Yes I believe that is right. In fact Marty said this ump is known for having a short fuse in the minors. Last year he ejected the same manager for the Marlins AAA team 5 times including one day when he ejected the manager in each game of a double header.

I think someone posted in the GT that this was the ump that Jose Offerman "hit" in winter league play.

REDblooded
08-16-2010, 11:23 AM
On the radio broadcast they were saying that this ump has gone out of his way to eject in the past...

I believe they said he'd ejected the Marlins pitching coach FIVE times during the course of last years AAA season....

SunDeck
08-16-2010, 11:26 AM
Wasn't the ump a callup from AAA himself?

At some point, with the exception of guys like Mike Leake, everyone is a call up. Umpires, one would imagine may feel a need to establish their authority right from the get go and someone mentioned this particular up having a rep for a short fuse, but that doesn't explain the other times JV has been tossed. Nevertheless, it's a pretty simple rule that we all have heard a million times- you don't argue balls and strikes.

On the other hand, if a player steps out of the box and says, "Did that one catch the back corner?", it's probably more likely to be accepted as a way to say they don't agree, and the ump gets the message without being openly challenged. It's a pretty basic lesson in workplace communication. Act like a chump and you'll get treated like one, especially when you're the hotshot new guy.

I have seen Rolen step out and ask the ump about a call and he doesn't get tossed for it. The difference is that a) he's Scott Rolen, respected and business like, and b) he's posing the argument in a way that doesn't challenge the ump. Secondly, by asking about the call he is also telling the ump that he recognizes the difference in opinion and is expecting that there will be consistency in the strike zone. And that is probably the most important thing; knowing the next at bat will have the same strike zone.

Redmachine2003
08-16-2010, 11:26 AM
Some Umps have rabbit ears and a quick hook and others just do their jobs. My bet if it was Pujols he could of argued for 10 mins used every word in the book and still stayed in the game.

puca
08-16-2010, 11:35 AM
Some Umps have rabbit ears and a quick hook and others just do their jobs. My bet if it was Pujols he could of argued for 10 mins used every word in the book and still stayed in the game.

The thing is Pujols probably wouldn't do that. Just like Rolen wouldn't do that.

As others have pointed out it is pretty obvious that Joey's approach to letting the umpire know that he disagrees with a ball/strike call needs some adjustment. He needs to learn to do it in a less confrontational way. It is probably not as much about showing up an umpire as it is showing the umpire some respect.

traderumor
08-16-2010, 11:52 AM
Some Umps have rabbit ears and a quick hook and others just do their jobs. My bet if it was Pujols he could of argued for 10 mins used every word in the book and still stayed in the game.Yep, and Pujols gets snippy quite frequently, barely gets a glance from the ump, whomever it might be. Bottom of the 1st tells me this ump has a quick trigger finger. I don't buy the "you can't argue balls and strikes." Managers, coaches, catchers, batters, and pitchers do it several times a game, every game, without ejection. Did he say a magic word? Who knows, so what, it was the first inning, no one was in anyone's face, and being a AAA fill-in ump tells me who the bush leaguer is here.

kaldaniels
08-16-2010, 12:06 PM
Yep, and Pujols gets snippy quite frequently, barely gets a glance from the ump, whomever it might be. Bottom of the 1st tells me this ump has a quick trigger finger. I don't buy the "you can't argue balls and strikes." Managers, coaches, catchers, batters, and pitchers do it several times a game, every game, without ejection. Did he say a magic word? Who knows, so what, it was the first inning, no one was in anyone's face, and being a AAA fill-in ump tells me who the bush leaguer is here.

You say yourself you don't know what Votto said, and later in the same sentence you call the ump a bush-leaguer. Doesn't seem even-handed. Saying some things do deserve being run of of a game because of it. I could get thrown out of a ball game by any ump on the planet in 5 seconds, by simply looking at the ground and letting it rip.

nate
08-16-2010, 12:12 PM
At some point, with the exception of guys like Mike Leake, everyone is a call up. Umpires, one would imagine may feel a need to establish their authority right from the get go and someone mentioned this particular up having a rep for a short fuse, but that doesn't explain the other times JV has been tossed. Nevertheless, it's a pretty simple rule that we all have heard a million times- you don't argue balls and strikes.

On the other hand, if a player steps out of the box and says, "Did that one catch the back corner?", it's probably more likely to be accepted as a way to say they don't agree, and the ump gets the message without being openly challenged. It's a pretty basic lesson in workplace communication. Act like a chump and you'll get treated like one, especially when you're the hotshot new guy.

I have seen Rolen step out and ask the ump about a call and he doesn't get tossed for it. The difference is that a) he's Scott Rolen, respected and business like, and b) he's posing the argument in a way that doesn't challenge the ump. Secondly, by asking about the call he is also telling the ump that he recognizes the difference in opinion and is expecting that there will be consistency in the strike zone. And that is probably the most important thing; knowing the next at bat will have the same strike zone.

I was just pointing out that Votto has been in the big leagues longer than the ump. If "paying your dues" is part of the equation, the ump has farther to go than Votto.

OnBaseMachine
08-16-2010, 12:21 PM
Some Umps have rabbit ears and a quick hook and others just do their jobs. My bet if it was Pujols he could of argued for 10 mins used every word in the book and still stayed in the game.

Yep. Pujols constantly questions strike calls and goes back and forth with umps but you never see him get ejected. My guess is if that had been him yesterday he wouldn't have been thrown out.

But, yeah, Votto needs to stop getting ejected early in the games. Thankfully the Reds won but it may not work out that way next time.

George Anderson
08-16-2010, 12:25 PM
Until Votto comes out and tells us what he said then you have to side with the ump. It is very possible that the ump did overreact but until we hear what Votto said then we are simply making silly guesses what went on similar to what happened in the Carpenter/Baker incident.

I usually side with the umps but there are always the renegade type umps trying to make it to the next level who want to show they are in charge and want to make a name for themselves. I am not saying this is the case because again we don't know, but there are those types out there.

VR
08-16-2010, 12:28 PM
Having the F-Bomb as an action verb in your conversation with anyone in authority is never, ever a good idea.

ochre
08-16-2010, 12:46 PM
Yep. Pujols constantly questions strike calls and goes back and forth with umps but you never see him get ejected. My guess is if that had been him yesterday he wouldn't have been thrown out.

But, yeah, Votto needs to stop getting ejected early in the games. Thankfully the Reds won but it may not work out that way next time.
They are 2-0 in games he's been ejected in this year, aren't they? :)

RFS62
08-16-2010, 12:54 PM
He's going to get the reputation around the league among the umpires. Probably already has.

That's not a good thing.

traderumor
08-16-2010, 01:03 PM
You say yourself you don't know what Votto said, and later in the same sentence you call the ump a bush-leaguer. Doesn't seem even-handed. Saying some things do deserve being run of of a game because of it. I could get thrown out of a ball game by any ump on the planet in 5 seconds, by simply looking at the ground and letting it rip.I said in the same post "so what" as to what he said. He was muttering at the plate when the ump tossed him, it was the bottom of the 1st, which means there was not much time for this to be something that had reached a boiling point. It really doesn't matter much what he said since he was not demonstrative about it.

The "bush" comes from the ump tossing a player for muttering, including obscentities. Laugh at him, consider him an idiot, and move on is what a true professional would do. Umps with quick triggers for ejections need to find another line of work.

traderumor
08-16-2010, 01:06 PM
He's going to get the reputation around the league among the umpires. Probably already has.

That's not a good thing.I agree. It is not a good thing for umps to base the speed of an ejection on whether or not a player is historically a whiner. Umpires are called "arbitrators." Each participant should start each day with a clean slate and the activity of the current game is all that should be considered as they judge the game. ;)

George Anderson
08-16-2010, 01:10 PM
The "bush" comes from the ump tossing a player for muttering, including obscentities. Laugh at him, consider him an idiot, and move on is what a true professional would do. Umps with quick triggers for ejections need to find another line of work.

It depends what Votto said. If Votto said "You are a joke" regardless if it was in a nonchalant manner then Votto should be ejected. If Votto said "that was a little inside" and did so in a nonchalant manner then the umps should let it go. Again since we don't know what he said we sound as foolish as the people that were claiming Carpenter made a racist statement to Dusty when there is zero evidence to back that up.

11larkin11
08-16-2010, 01:23 PM
I was taught in umpiring school that if they EVER say the magic word, you toss them. The magic word, you may ask?

You.

You can say "That call was bullcrap," all day. But if you say "You made a bullcrap call," you're gone.

kaldaniels
08-16-2010, 01:27 PM
I said in the same post "so what" as to what he said. He was muttering at the plate when the ump tossed him, it was the bottom of the 1st, which means there was not much time for this to be something that had reached a boiling point. It really doesn't matter much what he said since he was not demonstrative about it.

The "bush" comes from the ump tossing a player for muttering, including obscentities. Laugh at him, consider him an idiot, and move on is what a true professional would do. Umps with quick triggers for ejections need to find another line of work.

Let me see if I understand. As long as the player is "muttering" he can say whatever he wants and not be ejected?

George Anderson
08-16-2010, 01:27 PM
I was taught in umpiring school that if they EVER say the magic word, you toss them. The magic word, you may ask?

You.

You can say "That call was bullcrap," all day. But if you say "You made a bullcrap call," you're gone.

Bingo, because by saying the word "You" then you are making it personal.

kaldaniels
08-16-2010, 01:31 PM
I was taught in umpiring school that if they EVER say the magic word, you toss them. The magic word, you may ask?

You.

You can say "That call was bullcrap," all day. But if you say "You made a bullcrap call," you're gone.

Just curious, but over time I have seen people say that "you" is the magic word, but also people say that "the f word" is the magic word. Which is it? Or is it both?

George Anderson
08-16-2010, 01:36 PM
Just curious, but over time I have seen people say that "you" is the magic word, but also people say that "the f word" is the magic word. Which is it? Or is it both?

"You" is the magic word at all levels.

Since I only do HS and summer travel ball the "F" word will get you ejected for obvious reasons. I am not sure if the "F" word is a magic word at the College or Pro level.

reds1869
08-16-2010, 01:48 PM
"You" is the magic word at all levels.

Since I only do HS and summer travel ball the "F" word will get you ejected for obvious reasons. I am not sure if the "F" word is a magic word at the College or Pro level.

My lip reading skills (and my ears) tell me that Joey lets the F-bomb rip all the time. If it were a magic word he'd never finish an at bat. :D

traderumor
08-16-2010, 01:50 PM
It depends what Votto said. If Votto said "You are a joke" regardless if it was in a nonchalant manner then Votto should be ejected. If Votto said "that was a little inside" and did so in a nonchalant manner then the umps should let it go. Again since we don't know what he said we sound as foolish as the people that were claiming Carpenter made a racist statement to Dusty when there is zero evidence to back that up.The point was he was not drawing the attention of the world to his complaint. As to other comments about "you," that is a silly rule. Telling someone that you disagree with their call is personal. "You blew it" getting you run while "I think that was a blown call" is a distinction without a difference and demonstrates the silliness of some "unwritten" axioms.

SunDeck
08-16-2010, 01:54 PM
I was just pointing out that Votto has been in the big leagues longer than the ump. If "paying your dues" is part of the equation, the ump has farther to go than Votto.

And I was pointing out that it may not be the same for an umpire, who is charged with ensuring the rules and calls of a game. By the very nature of it, he has more authority than the player does, whether he's a rookie or a veteran.

George Anderson
08-16-2010, 01:57 PM
"You blew it" getting you run while "I think that was a blown call" is a distinction without a difference and demonstrates the silliness of some "unwritten" axioms.



It is a big difference between the two statements. It would be like me telling you that "you are a lousy poster" as opposed to saying "that post you made was lousy". The first statement is a direct statement to you as a person. The second is a direct statement about the actual call you made.

Chip R
08-16-2010, 01:58 PM
Votto should know that you just don't argue balls and strikes. He complained, then kept talking while his head was down at the plate, practically begging the umpire to toss him. I love Joey Votto but it's hard to argue in his favor on this one.


Everybody argues balls and strikes. It's an automatic ejection to do so but players and managers get around it by asking, "Where was that?" or "Looked low/high/inside/outside to me." As George said words paired with "you" are going to get you tossed. If Votto had said to the ump, "Pretty (freaking) hot day out." that isn't going to get him tossed unless the ump is a prude. If you argue in the right way you won't get tossed. They used to say John Wooden would sit on the bench and tell refs that he would see to it they never worked again and he could make it stick. He could also get away with a lot because he was who he was. If Pujols or Jeter or A-Rod had done and said the same things to that ump, they wouldn't have been tossed.

In Leo Durocher's autobiography, Nice Guys Finish Last he would say that you could say anything to umpires and not get tossed except for certain things. He said there was this one ump who didn't bother to pull the shades down in his hotel room one night when he was entertaining a lady. Some players saw this and soon word spread around the league. If you told this ump to "Pull the shades down," you were gone. You couldn't call Bill Klem "Catfish" or George Magurkurth "Meathead".

traderumor
08-16-2010, 02:03 PM
It is a big difference between the two statements. It would be like me telling you that "you are a lousy poster" as opposed to saying "that post you made was lousy". The first statement is a direct statement to you as a person. The second is a direct statement about the actual call you made.We're talking about arguing a call, not an intramural debate. Arguing my call was always personal.

George Anderson
08-16-2010, 02:10 PM
My lip reading skills (and my ears) tell me that Joey lets the F-bomb rip all the time. If it were a magic word he'd never finish an at bat. :D

I have heard stories from guys I work with that have worked AAA, AA and Div 1 College ball and I do recall stories where there was plenty of cussing including the "F" word. I would guess that the "F" word is ok if used in the right context and not used as a personal attack.

TheNext44
08-16-2010, 02:26 PM
I was taught in umpiring school that if they EVER say the magic word, you toss them. The magic word, you may ask?

You.

You can say "That call was bullcrap," all day. But if you say "You made a bullcrap call," you're gone.

I understand that. But in the umpiring school I attended in Missouri, I was taught to never toss a guy unless he was drawing attention to himself and/or you. (I umped only High School and College games, so there certain curse words got you thrown out, but only if said loud enough for others to hear.)

Let the player say whatever he wants, as long as no one else knows that's he's complaining. I was taught that as an ump, you have to have thick skin, and expect players to say all sorts of nasty things about you, personal or not.

The player crosses the line when starts to question your authority in front of everyone else, or make it look like you are not in control. That is what is most essential for an ump. To make sure that everyone knows you are in control.

Throwing a guy out because he said something personal, that no one else hears, actually makes it look like you are in less control, that your buttons can be pushed and the player can control you. Just look at the video from the game. The ump looked like a fool, because no one saw Votto do anything. The ump clearly made it worse by reacting the way he did.

jojo
08-16-2010, 02:30 PM
Votto probably needs to change his behavior a bit.

TheNext44
08-16-2010, 02:30 PM
http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/01/17/jose-offerman-takes-arguing-with-an-umpire-to-a-new-level/

Here is the video of the same ump getting punched by Jose Offerman in the Dominican League, for those who are interested.

TheNext44
08-16-2010, 02:32 PM
Votto probably needs to change his behavior a bit.

Absolutely, although I do not believe that yesterday's behavior is an example of that.

There is no contradiction between saying that Votto whines too much about balls and strikes, and that the ump should not have thrown him out of the game yesterday.

jojo
08-16-2010, 02:34 PM
Absolutely, although I do not believe that yesterday's behavior is an example of that.

There is no contradiction between saying that Votto whines too much about balls and strikes, and that the ump should not have thrown him out of the game yesterday.

The missing element is yesterday's context and we're still in the fog about the specifics.

George Anderson
08-16-2010, 02:34 PM
I understand that. But in the umpiring school I attended in Missouri, I was taught to never toss a guy unless he was drawing attention to himself and/or you. (I umped only High School and College games, so there certain curse words got you thrown out, but only if said loud enough for others to hear.)

Let the player say whatever he wants, as long as no one else knows that's he's complaining. I was taught that as an ump, you have to have thick skin, and expect players to say all sorts of nasty things about you, personal or not.


.

Which school in Missouri did you attend??

I have talked with numerous umpires that have worked the very highest levels of the minor leagues and never once did they say you should let a player make a personal attack without being ejected. I also know numerous guys who went to both the "Wendlestadt" and "Jim Evans" pro school and I know without doubt they don't endorse letting players make personal attacks without being ejected.

MississippiRed
08-16-2010, 02:39 PM
According to Jim Bouton's Ball Four, the magic word was MF. At least that was the case in 1969. Of course, at that point, you are definitely getting personal.

TheNext44
08-16-2010, 02:42 PM
The missing element is yesterday's context and we're still in the fog about the specifics.

My augment is that the context doesn't matter. Players should not be tossed unless they show up the ump no matter what they say.

The catcher didn't even hear what was said. I think that is the definition of "rabbit ears."

One of the purposes of having the ump on the field is to keep the game moving without disruptions. Throwing a player out when no one knows that he is even complaining is adding an unnecessary disruption to the game.

George Anderson
08-16-2010, 02:44 PM
My augment is that the context doesn't matter. Players should not be tossed unless they show up the ump no matter what they say.

The catcher didn't even hear what was said. I think that is the definition of "rabbit ears."

One of the purposes of having the ump on the field is to keep the game moving without disruptions. Throwing a player out when no one knows that he is even complaining is adding an unnecessary disruption to the game.

So if every single batter that comes to the plate calls you every name in the book but if they do it so no one knows you would allow that??

TheNext44
08-16-2010, 02:53 PM
Which school in Missouri did you attend??

I have talked with numerous umpires that have worked the very highest levels of the minor leagues and never once did they say you should let a player make a personal attack without being ejected. I also know numerous guys who went to both the "Wendlestadt" and "Jim Evans" pro school and I know without doubt they don't endorse letting players make personal attacks without being ejected.

It wasn't an umpire school like the Wendlestadt school. It was run by Creve Coeur parks department to train guys like me to be umps for their league games.

Clearly most umps don't practice this, they do throw guys out for making personal attacks. The most famous example was Eric Gregg, who threw anyone out for mentioning his weight. He once threw out Pete Rose when he said, "Eric, you wouldn't have missed that call if it was a hamburger."

Maybe it's because I was trained for such a low level of play, I don't know, but I was trained that the first and foremost rule for umpiring was to not draw attention to yourself. When players make personal attacks, ignore them and let the game proceed quickly. That will shut them up fast. They say those things to get you upset. If you toss them, you are only proving their point and playing into their hand.

Forget about what umps are trained to do. I just think my way of ignoring them is the better way to ump, and I think yesterday's game demonstrated why.

kaldaniels
08-16-2010, 02:56 PM
My augment is that the context doesn't matter. Players should not be tossed unless they show up the ump no matter what they say.

The catcher didn't even hear what was said. I think that is the definition of "rabbit ears."

One of the purposes of having the ump on the field is to keep the game moving without disruptions. Throwing a player out when no one knows that he is even complaining is adding an unnecessary disruption to the game.

I knew Votto was complaining. Saw it clear as day on TV...I even thought "you better be careful Joey".

jojo
08-16-2010, 03:06 PM
My augment is that the context doesn't matter. Players should not be tossed unless they show up the ump no matter what they say.

You're entitled to your opinion. It's the umpires that set the standard though.

George Anderson
08-16-2010, 03:09 PM
It wasn't an umpire school like the Wendlestadt school. It was run by Creve Coeur parks department to train guys like me to be umps for their league games.

Clearly most umps don't practice this, they do throw guys out for making personal attacks. The most famous example was Eric Gregg, who threw anyone out for mentioning his weight. He once threw out Pete Rose when he said, "Eric, you wouldn't have missed that call if it was a hamburger."

Maybe it's because I was trained for such a low level of play, I don't know, but I was trained that the first and foremost rule for umpiring was to not draw attention to yourself. When players make personal attacks, ignore them and let the game proceed quickly. That will shut them up fast. They say those things to get you upset. If you toss them, you are only proving their point and playing into their hand.

Forget about what umps are trained to do. I just think my way of ignoring them is the better way to ump, and I think yesterday's game demonstrated why.

I have ran across a few umpires who will let just about any behavior go because they do not want to make the league or school mad that employs them. Thank God they are few and far between.

RANDY IN INDY
08-16-2010, 04:06 PM
Good umpires will let a few questions go on balls and strikes, if they are framed correctly. Most good umpires will let "one" go that is not framed so well. Good umpires will let you know when they have reached the limit, and, good managers, coaches and players understand and respect that. "Chippy," egotistical umpires will toss you with no warning and those are the guys that don't understand the game and think they are the center of attention and caught up with their own little piece of authority. No umpire should take abuse. As a manager, coach, or player, you have to pick your spots and not argue or question every little thing. The best, umpires, coaches, and players understand the code. It's part of the game. Cross the line and you will be history.

Scrap Irony
08-16-2010, 04:58 PM
According to one of the fans behind home plate, Joey Votto never showed up the ump.

The ump then threw him out.

I agree that Votto has gotten the reputation as a whiner. I also agree that Votto needs to ease up on the arguing.

puca
08-16-2010, 05:50 PM
According to one of the fans behind home plate, Joey Votto never showed up the ump.

The ump then threw him out.

I agree that Votto has gotten the reputation as a whiner. I also agree that Votto needs to ease up on the arguing.

I think he needs to improve his vocabulary and phraseology.

Disagreeing with the umpire is okay and letting him know you disagree is also okay, but you have to maintain a level of respect. I can see why an umpire would take offense even to what Joey allegedly said.

OesterPoster
08-16-2010, 06:00 PM
How many games as a "fill-in" has Reyburn done this year? This is his 4th ejection already, which is pretty high on the official ejection list if he's only doing a few games here and there.

George Anderson
08-16-2010, 06:15 PM
I think he needs to improve his vocabulary and phraseology.

Disagreeing with the umpire is okay and letting him know you disagree is also okay, but you have to maintain a level of respect. I can see why an umpire would take offense even to what Joey allegedly said.

Exactly

I have had several instances where I screwed up and called a pitch that was a strike a ball. The catcher will ask me in a respectful tone just where the pitch was. On numerous occasions I have said something along the lines of " Um, I called it a ball but it was a strike. Tell the pitcher to throw that pitch again and hopefully I won't miss it." However had the catcher copped an attitude or did something to show me up he will not get the courtesy of that response. It is all about respect.

durl
08-16-2010, 06:24 PM
From what I saw (and read here) I believe he was tossed unnecessarily. The ump had short fuse on hot day perhaps?

Even so, it's hard not to notice Joey doing more and more talking around the plate when he doesn't like a call and I'm not a fan of it. There are other ways to convey your displeasure (without getting tossed) and I'm not sure why he believes that complaining will make the ump have a change of heart.

The Operator
08-16-2010, 07:59 PM
I've read on this thread that Joey has now been ejected 4 time for arguing balls and strikes. I know of yesterday and the incident in Chicago, but when were these other two incidents?

Boss-Hog
08-16-2010, 08:01 PM
I've read on this thread that Joey has now been ejected 4 time for arguing balls and strikes. I know of yesterday and the incident in Chicago, but when were these other two incidents?
Four times in the past two years...apparently, he was ejected twice last year, as well.

RFS62
08-16-2010, 11:39 PM
Good umpires will let a few questions go on balls and strikes, if they are framed correctly. Most good umpires will let "one" go that is not framed so well. Good umpires will let you know when they have reached the limit, and, good managers, coaches and players understand and respect that. "Chippy," egotistical umpires will toss you with no warning and those are the guys that don't understand the game and think they are the center of attention and caught up with their own little piece of authority. No umpire should take abuse. As a manager, coach, or player, you have to pick your spots and not argue or question every little thing. The best, umpires, coaches, and players understand the code. It's part of the game. Cross the line and you will be history.


Well said.

:beerme:

jojo
08-17-2010, 04:05 AM
Good umpires will let a few questions go on balls and strikes, if they are framed correctly. Most good umpires will let "one" go that is not framed so well. Good umpires will let you know when they have reached the limit, and, good managers, coaches and players understand and respect that. "Chippy," egotistical umpires will toss you with no warning and those are the guys that don't understand the game and think they are the center of attention and caught up with their own little piece of authority. No umpire should take abuse. As a manager, coach, or player, you have to pick your spots and not argue or question every little thing. The best, umpires, coaches, and players understand the code. It's part of the game. Cross the line and you will be history.

The "code" in baseball isn't a mystery. It's just like every other thing in life-i.e. "don't be a jerk".