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edabbs44
08-19-2010, 01:19 PM
from rotoworld


Cardinals acquired 3B Pedro Feliz and cash considerations from the Astros for RHP David Carpenter.

Get psyched? We know that Tony La Russa loves his veterans, but Feliz was batting just .221/.243/.311 with four home runs and 31 RBI with the Astros this season. The Cardinals probably aren't paying him much, so it's worth the gamble. He gives the Cardinals another option at the hot corner with David Freese done for the year and Felipe Lopez struggling.

RBA
08-19-2010, 01:21 PM
from rotoworld

Felipe Lopez can go back to sleep.

membengal
08-19-2010, 01:21 PM
Dang. Slow on the draw again.

Mods can kill my thread.

Tornon
08-19-2010, 01:22 PM
I bet Chris was infuriated that there was another Carpenter in the organization and demanded that the Cardinals trade the other one

VR
08-19-2010, 01:22 PM
As a Reds fan....I absolutely love this signing.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2010, 01:23 PM
He's hitting .221/.243/.311 - .554 OPS and has a -7.9 UZR/150 at 3B this season...

marcshoe
08-19-2010, 01:25 PM
thread should have been titled "Cards Trade Carpenter".

_Sir_Charles_
08-19-2010, 01:25 PM
Just because all these positive and up-beat posts on Redszone are kinda freaking me out....on the negative side of things...The Astros just got better. :p:

membengal
08-19-2010, 01:27 PM
Jim Edmonds. Pedro Feliz. Jim Edmonds. Pedro Feliz.

Adavantage in the August trade window:

Walt.

Ghosts of 1990
08-19-2010, 01:28 PM
I bet Chris was infuriated that there was another Carpenter in the organization and demanded that the Cardinals trade the other one

HAHAHAHAHAHA :D:beerme:

Ghosts of 1990
08-19-2010, 01:30 PM
Jim Edmonds. Pedro Feliz. Jim Edmonds. Pedro Feliz.

Adavantage in the August trade window:

Walt.

Seems like the Cards have a habit of picking up Pedro Feliz types in the past for 45 day rentals and they suddenly go .330/10/35 in a month though.

traderumor
08-19-2010, 01:33 PM
Seems like the Cards have a habit of picking up Pedro Feliz types in the past for 45 day rentals and they suddenly go .330/10/35 in a month though.Really? What are some examples you are thinking of?

membengal
08-19-2010, 01:33 PM
Seems like the Cards have a habit of picking up Pedro Feliz types in the past for 45 day rentals and they suddenly go .330/10/35 in a month though.

Out of curiosity, who? Feliz is a .600 OPS third baseman at this point. That's pretty hard to do. Who have they reclaimed from that kind of scrap heap in the past? I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that they have rehabilitated at this time of year who has up to that point been awful

Redsfan320
08-19-2010, 01:37 PM
Wow. NICE IMPROVEMENT FOR THE CARDS AT 3B!! HA-HA-HA!! :laugh:

Sorry. I just love seeing the Cards making lateral moves.

320

Reds Fanatic
08-19-2010, 01:38 PM
I don't really see what this move does for the Cardinals. I know they did not want to be stuck with Lopez at 3rd but this really is not much better. This is the kind of move I love to see from the Reds competition.

traderumor
08-19-2010, 01:42 PM
I don't really see what this move does for the Cardinals. I know they did not want to be stuck with Lopez at 3rd but this really is not much better. This is the kind of move I love to see from the Reds competition.I think it is trying to find some solution to Felipe's horrible D. We could have told them that. And it isn't like the Freise is a defensive wizard, but at least he had some pop that helped the lineup when he could stay healthy.

membengal
08-19-2010, 01:43 PM
The Cardinals fans at this blog:

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2010/8/19/1631080/ninth-innings-and-third-basemen#comments

(scroll about 2/3 of the way down for the part where the news of Feliz hits)

are NOT happy about this. They apparently are thinking it's not a good thing to have acquired the player that Fangraphs has as the worst in baseball this year..

My favorite comment so far there:


Dude's making 4.5 Mil to put up -2.1 WAR. What in the (edited) are these guys thinking? I’m amazed at how badly the Cards don’t want to win this year. How many 25th men on the roster can one team have?

This is a close second:


I assume this is a joke Tell me it’s a joke.

And this was quoted there from somewhere else:


Feliz wouldn’t be an upgrade over Allen Craig, Allen Iverson, Tim Allen, or even Alan Greenspan the way he’s played in 2010.

VR
08-19-2010, 01:44 PM
Out of curiosity, who? Feliz is a .600 OPS third baseman at this point. That's pretty hard to do. Who have they reclaimed from that kind of scrap heap in the past? I can't think of anyone off the top of my head that they have rehabilitated at this time of year who has up to that point been awful

Felipe Lopez went from a .619 OPSer to a .964 OPSer when he went from the Nats to the Cards in 2008. I think it's more urban legend than anything....but yeah, it does seem like Tony has his magical turd-reverser working every year down the stretch.

VR
08-19-2010, 01:46 PM
Sorry. I just love seeing the Cards making lateral moves.

320

We laugh, but just wait till Lohse comes back.

Oh, wait.

Ghosts of 1990
08-19-2010, 01:49 PM
Really? What are some examples you are thinking of?

Will Clark in 2000
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clarkwi02.shtml

Rolen in 2002
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rolensc01.shtml

Larry Walker in 2004
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/walkela01.shtml

Preston Wilson (hit 8 HR in 30+ games) in 2006
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wilsopr01.shtml

Ryan Ludwick... entire Cardinals career. He didn't have the numbers over a career that Feliz has had up to this point but was a bit younger.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/ludwiry01.shtml

Felipe Lopez (hit .385 in 43 games down the stretch) in 2008
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lopezfe01.shtml

Then of course you can count what Matt Holliday did last year down the stretch; he out-produced in 63 games what he'd done in the previous near 100 in Oakland and all of the sudden was revived by being plugged into the St. Louis lineup
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hollima01.shtml

Face it. Guys who have shown a propensity to put up numbers in the past of any type usually improve upon those numbers in the St. Louis lineup. Call it the Pujols effect or whatever you want. Guys in that lineup produce and are professional hitters.

membengal
08-19-2010, 01:50 PM
Those guys were all OPSing .554 when the Cards acquired them? Wow. I stand corrected...

edabbs44
08-19-2010, 01:50 PM
Will Clark in 2000
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clarkwi02.shtml

Rolen in 2002
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rolensc01.shtml

Larry Walker in 2004
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/walkela01.shtml

Preston Wilson (hit 8 HR in 30+ games) in 2006
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wilsopr01.shtml

Ryan Ludwick... entire Cardinals career. He didn't have the numbers over a career that Feliz has had up to this point but was a bit younger.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/ludwiry01.shtml

Felipe Lopez (hit .385 in 43 games down the stretch) in 2008
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lopezfe01.shtml

Then of course you can count what Matt Holliday did last year down the stretch; he out-produced in 63 games what he'd done in the previous near 100 in Oakland and all of the sudden was revived by being plugged into the St. Louis lineup
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hollima01.shtml

Face it. Guys who have shown a propensity to put up numbers in the past of any type usually improve upon those numbers in the St. Louis lineup. Call it the Pujols effect or whatever you want. Guys in that lineup produce and are professional hitters.

Is it related more to the Cards or to the GM picking the right guys? :)

Ghosts of 1990
08-19-2010, 01:50 PM
Felipe Lopez went from a .619 OPSer to a .964 OPSer when he went from the Nats to the Cards in 2008. I think it's more urban legend than anything....but yeah, it does seem like Tony has his magical turd-reverser working every year down the stretch.

Yeah this is all I was feeling.

redsmetz
08-19-2010, 01:52 PM
The Cardinals fans at this blog:

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2010/8/19/1631080/ninth-innings-and-third-basemen#comments

(scroll about 2/3 of the way down for the part where the news of Feliz hits)

are NOT happy about this. They apparently are thinking it's not a good thing to

Actually I was reading the board on the Post Dispatch and it surprised me how much it sounded like RZ in year's past. They're in full panic mode over there right now.

PuffyPig
08-19-2010, 01:52 PM
Will Clark in 2000
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clarkwi02.shtml

Rolen in 2002
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rolensc01.shtml

Larry Walker in 2004
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/walkela01.shtml

Preston Wilson (hit 8 HR in 30+ games) in 2006
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wilsopr01.shtml

Ryan Ludwick... entire Cardinals career. He didn't have the numbers over a career that Feliz has had up to this point but was a bit younger.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/ludwiry01.shtml

Felipe Lopez (hit .385 in 43 games down the stretch) in 2008
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lopezfe01.shtml

Then of course you can count what Matt Holliday did last year down the stretch; he out-produced in 63 games what he'd done in the previous near 100 in Oakland and all of the sudden was revived by being plugged into the St. Louis lineup
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hollima01.shtml

Face it. Guys who have shown a propensity to put up numbers in the past of any type usually improve upon those numbers in the St. Louis lineup. Call it the Pujols effect or whatever you want. Guys in that lineup produce and are professional hitters.

Most of these players were very good players who continued to play very well.

Feliz is a marginal player having a very bad year.

Lopez is an example of what you stated.

Ghosts of 1990
08-19-2010, 01:53 PM
Those guys were all OPSing .554 when the Cards acquired them? Wow. I stand corrected...

No, they weren't. But they're examples of guys who the tires were being kicked on or were not producing and then all of the sudden the insertion in the Cardinal lineup suddenly allowed an infusion of production to their careers.


Do you think Feliz OPS's .554 the rest of the way? Or even .600?

I could see him finding a way to get to his career best .790 clip here the remaining 40 games. I hope I'm wrong but it wouldn't be the first time it's happened is my point.

marcshoe
08-19-2010, 01:53 PM
Actually I was reading the board on the Post Dispatch and it surprised me how much it sounded like RZ in year's past. They're in full panic mode over there right now.

Yeah. That question about how many 25th men could be on one roster, well, speaking from experience....

RBA
08-19-2010, 01:54 PM
I think the Cards should roll the dice and stick with Lopez down the stretch. I guess this new guy is going to be used in late innings when the Cardinals have a lead.

redsmetz
08-19-2010, 01:54 PM
Yeah. That question about how many 25th men could be on one roster, well, speaking from experience....

Actually, that was a good question. That would be 18, right? Or is it 19?

Ghosts of 1990
08-19-2010, 01:57 PM
Most of these players were very good players who continued to play very well.

Feliz is a marginal player having a very bad year.

Lopez is an example of what you stated.

Ludwick was nothing before he became a Cardinal.

Larry Walker was near retirement, as it was reported. He physically could barely move, then boom...

Will Clark, was a perennial .300 hitter; but he went from .301 with Baltimore and hit .345 with the Cards the rest of the way. OPS from .886 to 1.081 as a Cardinal.

If there's anything left to squeeze out of the orange that is Pedro Feliz, I'd bet the Cards get it these last 40 games. And I don't think it's quite the laugher move that some believe it to be.

membengal
08-19-2010, 01:57 PM
No, they weren't. But they're examples of guys who the tires were being kicked on or were not producing and then all of the sudden the insertion in the Cardinal lineup suddenly allowed an infusion of production to their careers.

Do you think Feliz OPS's .554 the rest of the way? Or even .600?

I could see him finding a way to get to his career best .790 clip here the remaining 40 games. I hope I'm wrong but it wouldn't be the first time it's happened is my point.

Oh. I disagree with your premise then. The closest analog someone has come up with is Lopez. And, even then, was Lopez the WORST PLAYER IN BASEBALL when he was acquired by StL?

To put this in context, per fangraphs as I understand it, that's what Feliz has been in 2010. The worst player in baseball.

So, could Feliz go off upon being dropped into a pennant race? I suppose. But I am sure not all that concerned about it.

Comparing the Cards acquisition of Holliday or Edmonds at the point they were at in their careers to the acquisition of Feliz at this point is to compare Vin Scully to Paul Keels. I mean, you can do it, but it's not a fair comparison...

edabbs44
08-19-2010, 01:57 PM
Oh. I disagree with your premise then. The closest analog someone has come up with is Lopez. And, even then, was Lopez the WORST PLAYER IN BASEBALL when he was acquired by StL?

To put this in context, per fangraphs as I understand it, that's what Feliz has been in 2010. The worst player in baseball.

So, could Feliz go off upon being dropped into a pennant race? I suppose. But I am sure not all that concerned about it.

Comparing the Cards acquisition of Holliday or Edmonds at the point they were at in their careers to the acquisition of Feliz at this point is to compare Vin Scully to Paul Keels. I mean, you can do it, but it's not a fair comparison...

It wouldn't stun me to see Feliz play well.

bucksfan2
08-19-2010, 01:58 PM
I think the Cards should roll the dice and stick with Lopez down the stretch. I guess this new guy is going to be used in late innings when the Cardinals have a lead.

We all saw what Lopez brings to the table. He can wow you offensively and even defensively but there will be times, more often than not it seems, in which he makes a brutal error.

Feliz in all likelihood brings very little to the table other than a solidifying defensive 3b. If he gives you any offense that will be a plus. In reality if you let any Card other than Pujols or Holiday beat you your asking for it.

Ghosts of 1990
08-19-2010, 01:59 PM
Oh. I disagree with your premise then. The closest analog someone has come up with is Lopez. And, even then, was Lopez the WORST PLAYER IN BASEBALL when he was acquired by StL?

To put this in context, per fangraphs as I understand it, that's what Feliz has been in 2010. The worst player in baseball.

So, could Feliz go off upon being dropped into a pennant race? I suppose. But I am sure not all that concerned about it.

Comparing the Cards acquisition of Holliday or Edmonds at the point they were at in their careers to the acquisition of Feliz at this point is to compare Vin Scully to Paul Keels. I mean, you can do it, but it's not a fair comparison...

Fair argument and I understand your point. Mine was just that; wouldn't it be so very Cardinal-like to get every last drop as they so often do (in such an annoying fashion) with Feliz. I was asked for people off the top of my head, so I provided them.

membengal
08-19-2010, 02:00 PM
It wouldn't stun me to see Feliz play well.

Well, since .554 OPS is his baseline, I would guess he can better that. But let's not pretend they have acquired Aramis Ramirez either.

His baseline performance has been SO awful, this is pure shot in the dark for them. The bigger point is that is what they have been reduced to in StL.

traderumor
08-19-2010, 02:00 PM
Will Clark in 2000
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/clarkwi02.shtml

Rolen in 2002
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rolensc01.shtml

Larry Walker in 2004
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/walkela01.shtml

Preston Wilson (hit 8 HR in 30+ games) in 2006
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wilsopr01.shtml

Ryan Ludwick... entire Cardinals career. He didn't have the numbers over a career that Feliz has had up to this point but was a bit younger.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/ludwiry01.shtml

Felipe Lopez (hit .385 in 43 games down the stretch) in 2008
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lopezfe01.shtml

Then of course you can count what Matt Holliday did last year down the stretch; he out-produced in 63 games what he'd done in the previous near 100 in Oakland and all of the sudden was revived by being plugged into the St. Louis lineup
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hollima01.shtml

Face it. Guys who have shown a propensity to put up numbers in the past of any type usually improve upon those numbers in the St. Louis lineup. Call it the Pujols effect or whatever you want. Guys in that lineup produce and are professional hitters.
Will Clark OPS +126 w/ Baltimore before trade
Rolen OPS +123 w/ Philadelphia before trade
Walker OPS +166 w/ Colorado before trade

I'm not going for them all because those three alone show that we're talking about two different types of deals. Feliz is hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. Most of what you are showing were major deals, not picking up a fringe player in a move of desperation where choices were limited.

And Ludwick?

membengal
08-19-2010, 02:05 PM
Actually I was reading the board on the Post Dispatch and it surprised me how much it sounded like RZ in year's past. They're in full panic mode over there right now.

Thanks, I will check that out next. The people posting at VEB sure are not pumped over the Feliz trade, at any rate. But I am recognizing some old school past years RZ humor-in-the-dark, like this post:



Joke time.

You know what’s funny?
Aaron miles playing second.

You know what’s even funnier?
Pedro Feliz playing 3rd in the same game.

Even funnier than that?
Stavinoha in right field.

How can we beat that?
Winn playing center.

But the line up?

Miles
Feliz
Pujols
Holliday
Stavinoha
Winn
Yadi
Pitcher
Ryan.

get it?

cumberlandreds
08-19-2010, 02:05 PM
I won't make fun of this pickup to just keep good karma going. I've seen many of these pickups over the years of "has beens" or "never was" and they suddenly find lightening in a bottle for about a month.

Tom Servo
08-19-2010, 02:07 PM
Not to mention all of the guys who manage to play well/there best only with the Cardinals like Tony Womack, Aaron Miles, Abraham Nunez, So Taguchi, Scott Spezio, etc.

Ghosts of 1990
08-19-2010, 02:12 PM
Not to mention all of the guys who manage to play well/there best only with the Cardinals like Tony Womack, Aaron Miles, Abraham Nunez, So Taguchi, Scott Spezio, etc.

Exactly. These are other guys who fit the same mold, nothing really anywhere else but somehow are passable in St. Louis.

Even though few of these were late season deals (Womack was one), these are more players who weren't much who really played well.

And yes I'm glad we have Walt on our side now. Miguel Cairo is such great proof.

Cedric
08-19-2010, 02:22 PM
Exactly. These are other guys who fit the same mold, nothing really anywhere else but somehow are passable in St. Louis.

Even though few of these were late season deals (Womack was one), these are more players who weren't much who really played well.

And yes I'm glad we have Walt on our side now. Miguel Cairo is such great proof.

Taguchi was terrible there. Womack was "better" in Arizona and Spiezo was horrible there and good in Anaheim.

I don't see it.

edabbs44
08-19-2010, 02:26 PM
Thanks, I will check that out next. The people posting at VEB sure are not pumped over the Feliz trade, at any rate. But I am recognizing some old school past years RZ humor-in-the-dark, like this post:

Sounds a lot like when Cairo made the team here.

Cedric
08-19-2010, 02:28 PM
Sounds a lot like when Cairo made the team here.

But you were right on Cairo I suppose? For someone who complains and moans about "negativity" you sure bait on almost every post. Give it a rest.

membengal
08-19-2010, 02:31 PM
Another Card fan, this time from the Post Dispatch forums:


Here are Feliz's last six OPS+ numbers; 85, 79, 80, 81, 81 and 49. And he's owed more than $1M.


Oh, here's something good.

Over the period 2005-2009, there were 30 individual seasons by corner position players with OPS+ less than 86. Pedro Feliz has five of them. Every year.

At least he's consistent. Five for five in posting OPS+ numbers of less than 86. And, if he'd had a few more PAs this season, he's qualify for six for six.

What I am hearing as a default setting from some of you is that no matter who the Cards get, they play better for St. Louis. I don't beleive that to be the case. I just don't buy into a Cardinal boogeyman theory, at least when it comes to position players. I yield on the Dave Duncan is an evil genius thing, but I reserve the right to not quake in my Reds slippers over Pedro Feliz showing up by the Mississippi River in Missouri. This does not seem like the second coming of Scott Rolen there, anyway...

Mario-Rijo
08-19-2010, 02:31 PM
Well, since .554 OPS is his baseline, I would guess he can better that. But let's not pretend they have acquired Aramis Ramirez either.

His baseline performance has been SO awful, this is pure shot in the dark for them. The bigger point is that is what they have been reduced to in StL.

Not sure it's wise to assume that .554 (or -7 UZR/150) is the actual baseline. He had fallen out of favor in Houston and hasn't received regular playing time. Stick him in that lineup and at the very least he helps improve a mostly defensive dependent staff improve and he still has pop. Moving Felipe to 2nd and Schumaker to the bench or some combination of these with LaRussa pulling the strings it's quite possible he can help to improve them overall even if it's ever so slightly. Not enough but not as bad as some would like to believe IMO.

Take a snapshot of that run differential now and see if it improves.

hebroncougar
08-19-2010, 02:45 PM
Now batting 7th for the Cardinals, the pitcher.............

Big Klu
08-19-2010, 02:51 PM
25 years ago, Cesar Cedeño batted .241/.307/.336/.644 with 3 HR's and 30 RBI's in 245 PA's for the Reds.

After being traded to the Cardinals on August 29, Cedeño hit .434/.463/.750/1.213 with 6 HR's and 19 RBI's in 82 PA's the rest of the season.



But that was Whitey Herzog's magic.

MattyHo4Life
08-19-2010, 03:04 PM
Another Card fan, this time from the Post Dispatch forums:

One thing to keep in mind that the majority of Cardinals fans seem to sound a lot like Reds fans prior to this season. If the Cardinals aren't on pace to win 100 games plus, then most Cards fans act like the sky is falling. A lot of them are like that even when they are winning. I don't get it, but it's easy to find a lot of posts like that. I'm surprised you all don't go to the pit of negativity birdsonthebat.org i don't go there...that place is too negative for me. lol If The Cards traded for ARod, there would be negative posters stating why it's a horrible move.

15fan
08-19-2010, 03:07 PM
Now batting 7th for the Cardinals, the pitcher.............

:clap:

PuffyPig
08-19-2010, 03:18 PM
Going forward, Lopez likely has a better chance of performong better than Feliz.

But given the luck factor in small sample sizes, any player can out perform his skill level for a fairly large part of a season.

Jon Jay's BABIP suggest his real OPS is about .150 points lowe than his current one, and it's already fallen about .100 points since the Ludwick trade.

But trading for Feliz is basically hoping a player will get lucky, as the skill level simply isn't there.

MattyHo4Life
08-19-2010, 03:25 PM
I don't think this is a bad deal and I don't think this will make the Cardinals better. Will it make them worse, I don't think so. Feliz didn't cost anyone on the 25 man roster, and the Cards probably won't be paying a lot of his salary. The plus that I see to this trade is that his glove has got to be better at 3B than Lopez'. The negative is that this probably means that the Cards will stop looking for a replacement at 3B unless he bombs right away. I don't know, Luge really helped when he came to the Cards. The Red Sox wanted to give him away and pay all of his salary. Luge did great when he first was traded, and then he started to come back to earth. If Feliz can play better defense than Lopez, then this trade will help the Cards, at least a little.

Chip R
08-19-2010, 03:27 PM
I don't think this is a bad deal and I don't think this will make the Cardinals better. Will it make them worse, I don't think so. Feliz didn't cost anyone on the 25 man roster, and the Cards probably won't be paying a lot of his salary. The plus that I see to this trade is that his glove has got to be better at 3B than Lopez'. The negative is that this probably means that the Cards will stop looking for a replacement at 3B unless he bombs right away. I don't know, Luge really helped when he came to the Cards. The Red Sox wanted to give him away and pay all of his salary. Luge did great when he first was traded, and then he started to come back to earth. If Feliz can play better defense than Lopez, then this trade will help the Cards, at least a little.


I agree although I'm sure if Feliz played 3rd left-handed he'd be better than Lopez.

MattyHo4Life
08-19-2010, 03:29 PM
I agree although I'm sure if Feliz played 3rd left-handed he'd be better than Lopez.

yeah...no kidding.

Mario-Rijo
08-19-2010, 03:37 PM
Going forward, Lopez likely has a better chance of performong better than Feliz.

But given the luck factor in small sample sizes, any player can out perform his skill level for a fairly large part of a season.

Jon Jay's BABIP suggest his real OPS is about .150 points lowe than his current one, and it's already fallen about .100 points since the Ludwick trade.

But trading for Feliz is basically hoping a player will get lucky, as the skill level simply isn't there.

But will the both outperform Schumaker? Better yet LaRussa is master of putting guys in a position to be as good as possible, he'll use all 3 of these guy in some kind of rotation and get the best out of them. And again it improves the defense as Feliz is > Lopez at 3rd, Lopez > than Schumaker at 2B.

OUReds
08-19-2010, 03:42 PM
The Cardinals fans at this blog:

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2010/8/19/1631080/ninth-innings-and-third-basemen#comments

(scroll about 2/3 of the way down for the part where the news of Feliz hits)

are NOT happy about this. They apparently are thinking it's not a good thing to have acquired the player that Fangraphs has as the worst in baseball this year..

My favorite comment so far there:

This one is my favorite.

"Not to mention the Astros, who refused to trade Oswalt in the division, were perfectly okay letting us have Feliz."

It's funny cause it's true.

PuffyPig
08-19-2010, 03:51 PM
But will the both outperform Schumaker? Better yet LaRussa is master of putting guys in a position to be as good as possible, he'll use all 3 of these guy in some kind of rotation and get the best out of them. And again it improves the defense as Feliz is > Lopez at 3rd, Lopez > than Schumaker at 2B.

For a guy who seems to get the best out of playing marginal talent in a rotation to get the best out of them, the Cards sure have a lot of marginal talent playing badly.

Lopez over Schumaker at 2nd isn't an improvement. Both have hit about the same this year, but Schumaker is showing steady improvement as the year has gone on, Lopez has regressed from day one.

Mario-Rijo
08-19-2010, 03:56 PM
For a guy who seems to get the best out of playing marginal talent in a rotation to get the best out of them, the Cards sure have a lot of marginal talent playing badly.

Lopez over Schumaker at 2nd isn't an improvement. Both have hit about the same this year, but Schumaker is showing steady improvement as the year has gone on, Lopez has regressed from day one.

I guess I see Lopez as a slightly better defender at 2B, I have seen Schumaker cost their pitchers way too many extra outs over the past few seasons, Lopez does that too but alot less at 2B than anywhere else on the diamond and less than Schumaker not to mention I think Lopez gets to more balls.

CrackerJack
08-19-2010, 04:00 PM
Reeks of desperation....:)

MattyHo4Life
08-19-2010, 04:03 PM
I was expecting the Cards to trade for Encarnacion. The Cards love ex Reds almost as much as the Reds love ex Cards. lol

MattyHo4Life
08-19-2010, 04:04 PM
Reeks of desperation....:)

Wouldn't you be desperate if Lopez was your 3rd baseman? lol

Mario-Rijo
08-19-2010, 04:05 PM
I was expecting the Cards to trade for Encarnacion. The Cards love ex Reds almost as much as the Reds love ex Cards. lol

We've always had talent just not anyone to mold it, give EE to LaRussa/Oquendo/McGwire/Pujols I bet they could get it out of him if anyone can.

CrackerJack
08-19-2010, 04:31 PM
Wouldn't you be desperate if Lopez was your 3rd baseman? lol

Yeah it's obviously more of a necessary move, but couldn't help myself. :)

cincrazy
08-19-2010, 04:40 PM
Another Card fan, this time from the Post Dispatch forums:



What I am hearing as a default setting from some of you is that no matter who the Cards get, they play better for St. Louis. I don't beleive that to be the case. I just don't buy into a Cardinal boogeyman theory, at least when it comes to position players. I yield on the Dave Duncan is an evil genius thing, but I reserve the right to not quake in my Reds slippers over Pedro Feliz showing up by the Mississippi River in Missouri. This does not seem like the second coming of Scott Rolen there, anyway...

I understand your point... Feliz isn't going to go to St. Louis and be an All Star down the stretch. However, I do think it's fair to say that he has a good shot of being better in St. Louis. Feliz isn't going to catch the world on fire, but he could very well be better than what they've had at 3B the last several weeks.

Is it likely to swing the difference in the division? No way. But he could certainly be an improvement, because Lopez, especially defensively, has been awful for them.

PuffyPig
08-19-2010, 04:45 PM
We've always had talent just not anyone to mold it, give EE to LaRussa/Oquendo/McGwire/Pujols I bet they could get it out of him if anyone can.

McGwire??? Cards certainly aren't doing anytihng hitting wise this year to make you think he's made any kind of positive improvement. Outside of Pujols and Holliday, they hit like the Astros.

Pujols??? I expect Pujols would simply ignore EE. Who has he ever molded?

cincrazy
08-19-2010, 04:48 PM
I'm really curious as to how the Cards are going to try and improve their team this offseason. In past years, they've been able to do it without a problem. But they've already got so much money invested in Holliday, they still need to sign Wainwright, Pujols, etc... They need to spend so much money to keep the stars they ALREADY have, how in the world are they going to actually improve this team? Because their minor leagues aren't great.

PuffyPig
08-19-2010, 05:38 PM
I'm really curious as to how the Cards are going to try and improve their team this offseason. In past years, they've been able to do it without a problem. But they've already got so much money invested in Holliday, they still need to sign Wainwright, Pujols, etc... They need to spend so much money to keep the stars they ALREADY have, how in the world are they going to actually improve this team? Because their minor leagues aren't great.


They will have great difficulty doing so.

Even with their 4 stars having exceptional years they are lagging.

It's not going to be possible for those 4 to have better years.

THye have few high impact prospects, and those thye have aren't close to major league ready.

They will have to get lucky to improve next year, IMO.

cincrazy
08-19-2010, 06:21 PM
They will have great difficulty doing so.

Even with their 4 stars having exceptional years they are lagging.

It's not going to be possible for those 4 to have better years.

THye have few high impact prospects, and those thye have aren't close to major league ready.

They will have to get lucky to improve next year, IMO.

Agreed. Once Carpenter, Pujols and Holliday start to tail off even a tad, the Cardinals are in for big trouble. Even if ONE of them tails off, it's going to be tough for them to compete at their current pace (which has them sitting 3 games behind us ;)).

MattyHo4Life
08-19-2010, 06:26 PM
Agreed. Once Carpenter, Pujols and Holliday start to tail off even a tad, the Cardinals are in for big trouble. Even if ONE of them tails off, it's going to be tough for them to compete at their current pace (which has them sitting 3 games behind us ;)).

I agree that the Cards may be in trouble when Pujols "tails off". He is the only one though. Everyone has been saying that the Cards would be in trouble for years once Edmonds and Rolen got old. Well..they got old, but they were replaced. Anyone can be replaced except for Pujols.

OldXOhio
08-19-2010, 07:24 PM
SIAP, but I'm hearing the cards wanted Blum but the astros balked. Settled for Feliz instead.

PuffyPig
08-19-2010, 07:24 PM
I agree that the Cards may be in trouble when Pujols "tails off". He is the only one though. Everyone has been saying that the Cards would be in trouble for years once Edmonds and Rolen got old. Well..they got old, but they were replaced. Anyone can be replaced except for Pujols.

Pujols is likely more easily replaceable than Carpenter and Wainwright,

Firstbaseman grow on trees, maybe not as good as Pujols, but within spitting distance.

Replacing TOR starters is almost impossible.

I see Rolen has been replaced by Lopez/Feliz, how is that working out for you??

cincrazy
08-19-2010, 07:26 PM
I agree that the Cards may be in trouble when Pujols "tails off". He is the only one though. Everyone has been saying that the Cards would be in trouble for years once Edmonds and Rolen got old. Well..they got old, but they were replaced. Anyone can be replaced except for Pujols.

I think it's different now than it was five years ago. The economics make it almost impossible for St. Louis.

They're a good organization, no questioning that. But every organization goes through a down period at some point. And when this current crop of stars ages (and they really aren't that far off from declining statistically, at least historically speaking) they're gonna be in trouble.

jojo
08-19-2010, 07:26 PM
Just because all these positive and up-beat posts on Redszone are kinda freaking me out....on the negative side of things...The Astros just got better. :p:

Quote of the day.......

MattyHo4Life
08-19-2010, 07:57 PM
I think it's different now than it was five years ago. The economics make it almost impossible for St. Louis.

They're a good organization, no questioning that. But every organization goes through a down period at some point. And when this current crop of stars ages (and they really aren't that far off from declining statistically, at least historically speaking) they're gonna be in trouble.

The economic future looked bleak for the Cardinals 5 years too. It actually looked worse, because we had such a depleated farm system. The farm system is just as depleated now, but the difference is that we have a lot of young players to fill the gaps. The aren't superstars by any means, but they could be some good young players. We really didn't have that until the new regime took over.

PuffyPig
08-19-2010, 08:20 PM
The farm system is just as depleated now, but the difference is that we have a lot of young players to fill the gaps. The aren't superstars by any means, but they could be some good young players.

Who are these "lot of young players ready to take over"?

I'm not seeing it.

If the Cards had any, they'd be in the majors now instead of arguably the worst #20-25 roster players around.

Winn, Anderson, Miles, Craig and Stavinoha is a crippling bench.

MattyHo4Life
08-20-2010, 12:04 AM
Who are these "lot of young players ready to take over"?

wow..i never said anything about taking over. I said filling the gaps. big difference. lol

Scrap Irony
08-20-2010, 12:16 AM
Rasmus is a good young player who's likely to get better. Wainwright and Garcia are also good and young, but aren't likely to improve over the excellent seasons they're enjoying now.

Shelby Miller looks like the real deal, though he's a couple years away at best and TINSTAAPP applies, especially considering his relative youth. At best, he could replace Carpenter as staff ace.

Craig, Freese, and Jay might become major league starters if you squint real hard. But they're just more of the flotsam and jetsom that dots that roster.

Average prospects added to aging superstars probably means they're a solid team, but not the juggernaut they've been for a decade. Reminds me of Houston from just after Bagwell.

MattyHo4Life
08-20-2010, 08:27 AM
Average prospects added to aging superstars probably means they're a solid team, but not the juggernaut they've been for a decade. Reminds me of Houston from just after Bagwell.

That's what the Cardinals have done for years though. Most of the Cardinals stars have been bought. Pujols is a rare exception.

bucksfan2
08-20-2010, 08:39 AM
Pujols is likely more easily replaceable than Carpenter and Wainwright,

Firstbaseman grow on trees, maybe not as good as Pujols, but within spitting distance.

Replacing TOR starters is almost impossible.

I see Rolen has been replaced by Lopez/Feliz, how is that working out for you??

Easier to replace Pujols? Pujols is a generational type of talent. He is in the conversation as best 1b ever. He won't be easily replaced, and I think you can make the argument that Pujols is the glue that has held the Cards together throughout his career. He made the Cards relevant when Carpenter missed a season because of arm issues. Pujols total value will never be replaced by the Cards.

Mario-Rijo
08-20-2010, 08:39 AM
McGwire??? Cards certainly aren't doing anytihng hitting wise this year to make you think he's made any kind of positive improvement. Outside of Pujols and Holliday, they hit like the Astros.

Pujols??? I expect Pujols would simply ignore EE. Who has he ever molded?

Hmm, maybe you have a point on McGwire. I don't know what Pujols would do he just doesn't strike me as the type to ignore a teammate he might be able to help. Seem to remember Votto saying he had discussions with Pujols about hitting once upon a time.

MattyHo4Life
08-20-2010, 12:27 PM
Easier to replace Pujols? Pujols is a generational type of talent. He is in the conversation as best 1b ever. He won't be easily replaced, and I think you can make the argument that Pujols is the glue that has held the Cards together throughout his career. He made the Cards relevant when Carpenter missed a season because of arm issues. Pujols total value will never be replaced by the Cards.

Exactly... Pujols' value is so much more than just a hitter. He is baseball smart. He knows more about the game than a lot of coaches and managers. The stop sign at 3rd base doesn't apply to Pujols. His head is always in the game. A lot of people have said that Pujols is having an off year this year. Maybe he is, but even an off year for Pujols is a career year for most players. In order to determine what Pujols means to the team, you have to look a lot deeper than his stats. The Cardinals went to the playoffs many years with not much of a team other than Pujols. The Cardinals usually have a lot of below average players hitting around him, but Pujols still puts up big numbers. I don't buy into Pujols ignoring any player. Pujols is the biggest cheerleader. When a player hits a home run, or scores on a bunt, Pujols is the first one there to greet him. He runs out like it is his rookie year...every year. Like all ballplayers, Pujols has his slumps, but they never last very long because he works hard to get out of them. Pujols knows the game very well, and that is why he is one of the best players ever. The Cardinals will struggle once Pujols is no longer a Cardinal. I don't see it happening until that time though.

OUReds
08-20-2010, 09:25 PM
Feliz is hitting 5th in the Cardinals lineup today. That's just crazy.

VR
08-20-2010, 09:27 PM
Feliz is hitting 5th in the Cardinals lineup today. That's just crazy.

You are obviously not as wise as TLr.

matty, what do Cards fans think about that lineup?

oneupper
08-20-2010, 09:51 PM
Feliz is hitting 5th in the Cardinals lineup today. That's just crazy.

A lefty on the mound. Not THAT crazy. Rasmus is still out, also.

OUReds
08-20-2010, 10:01 PM
A lefty on the mound. Not THAT crazy. Rasmus is still out, also.

I hear ya, but the fact that he may actually be the best choice as a fifth hole hitter against lefties speaks volumes about the team right now.

oneupper
08-20-2010, 10:13 PM
I hear ya, but the fact that he may actually be the best choice as a fifth hole hitter against lefties speaks volumes about the team right now.

Ludwick comes to mind.

MattyHo4Life
08-20-2010, 11:40 PM
You are obviously not as wise as TLr.

matty, what do Cards fans think about that lineup?

ummmm...that it's a nightmare? or worse! lol

MattyHo4Life
08-20-2010, 11:43 PM
Feliz is hitting 5th in the Cardinals lineup today. That's just crazy.

Nobody would dare walk Pujols and Holliday if they have to face the legend known only as Pedro! :eek:

traderumor
08-21-2010, 10:27 AM
I'm guessing the Cards fans are becoming convinced that ownership may have thrown the wrong guy under the bus, but I'm glad they did. I am fine with taking their GM rejects.

Joseph
08-21-2010, 10:39 AM
I'm guessing the Cards fans are becoming convinced that ownership may have thrown the wrong guy under the bus, but I'm glad they did. I am fine with taking their GM rejects.

Does seem to have worked out for us once upon a time.

RANDY IN INDY
08-21-2010, 11:36 AM
I was extremely happy that the Cards traded Ludwick.

VR
08-21-2010, 01:51 PM
Have lost at least Rolen and Ludwick because of LaRussas pride. Cant' get enough of that.

PuffyPig
09-14-2010, 09:16 AM
No, they weren't. But they're examples of guys who the tires were being kicked on or were not producing and then all of the sudden the insertion in the Cardinal lineup suddenly allowed an infusion of production to their careers.


Do you think Feliz OPS's .554 the rest of the way? Or even .600?

I could see him finding a way to get to his career best .790 clip here the remaining 40 games. I hope I'm wrong but it wouldn't be the first time it's happened is my point.

You were correct, Feliz has a .487 OPS with the Cards.

membengal
09-14-2010, 10:02 AM
Well .554 isn't THAT far away from .487...

membengal
09-14-2010, 10:02 AM
Jim Edmonds. Pedro Feliz. Jim Edmonds. Pedro Feliz.

Adavantage in the August trade window:

Walt.

Quoting myself.

And that remains accurate, even with Edmonds' short playing stint and subsequent injury.

membengal
09-14-2010, 10:04 AM
Well, since .554 OPS is his baseline, I would guess he can better that. But let's not pretend they have acquired Aramis Ramirez either.

His baseline performance has been SO awful, this is pure shot in the dark for them. The bigger point is that is what they have been reduced to in StL.

Guess not.

Wheelhouse
09-14-2010, 10:08 AM
Well, the Cards decided to load up on middling Reds players from some BAD Reds teams: Franklin, Lopez, Larue, Reyes--I don't know why, unless they were trying to show that the Reds are such a bad organization all they needed was the Cards environment to flourish. The Reds have loaded up on the BEST Cards players from the BEST Cards teams. No surprise the Reds are where they are and the Cards are in the dumps. Mozeliak and DeWitt have messed them up, badly.

TRF
09-14-2010, 01:54 PM
Well, the Cards decided to load up on middling Reds players from some BAD Reds teams: Franklin, Lopez, Larue, Reyes--I don't know why, unless they were trying to show that the Reds are such a bad organization all they needed was the Cards environment to flourish. The Reds have loaded up on the BEST Cards players from the BEST Cards teams. No surprise the Reds are where they are and the Cards are in the dumps. Mozeliak and DeWitt have messed them up, badly.

Reyes the last 5 years has been an excellent reliever. I mean excellent, for what he does. He doesn't hurt them at all.

FeLo is the definition of IF depth. He has spurts with the bat. He should probably be the 2B there.

I'm not a Ryan Franklin fan, but Duncan did something.

LaRue lost his mojo after leaving Cincinnati. I still like him though. I wouldn't hire him, but i like him.