PDA

View Full Version : Hold on to your butts.. The Cards made a big trade



arkimadee
08-19-2010, 06:34 PM
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100819/SPT04/308190078/1071/Cardinals-acquire-Feliz-from-Astros


might as well forget them playoff plans.. this deal will bring them to the top.. LOL

RedsRoll19
08-19-2010, 06:39 PM
I really don't see this helping them all that much, hope im right.

Hey Meat
08-19-2010, 06:56 PM
Ha Ha. How much better than Felipe will he be at third? Not Much. No big deal.

Vottomatic
08-19-2010, 06:59 PM
YAWN.

Looks like a desperation move to me. To appease Tony Crybaby Larussa and their fans, who've been complaining and ridiculing Lopez in the media.........the way Larussa handles everything. He can't shut up and he's been singling Lopez out in print.

This will be good for team chemistry. Lopez probably feels like crud, will be whining behind the scenes and creating a rift in the clubhouse.

Of course, pretty much none of Larussa's players like him anyway, and I think it has alot to do with their inability to be consistent. Clubhouse and chemistry problems is my reasoning that they struggle at times.

Just my $.02 cents.

Knightro28
08-19-2010, 07:56 PM
Not trying to make excuses for Feliz, but when you go from the Phillies (WS appearances two years in a row) to the Astros, that might take some urgency / energy out of your game... Possibly getting back into a pennant chase might reinvigorate him?

But even if he was "reinvigorated," he's still nothing to be scared of. Especially offensively.

GIDP
08-19-2010, 08:09 PM
Not trying to make excuses for Feliz, but when you go from the Phillies (WS appearances two years in a row) to the Astros, that might take some urgency / energy out of your game... Possibly getting back into a pennant chase might reinvigorate him?

But even if he was "reinvigorated," he's still nothing to be scared of. Especially offensively.

He wasnt all that good with the Phillies, and now hes 35 walking less than ever, hitting for less power than ever. It might work out but it would be a big surprise to me.

1990REDS
08-19-2010, 08:14 PM
YAWN.

Looks like a desperation move to me. To appease Tony Crybaby Larussa and their fans, who've been complaining and ridiculing Lopez in the media.........the way Larussa handles everything. He can't shut up and he's been singling Lopez out in print.

This will be good for team chemistry. Lopez probably feels like crud, will be whining behind the scenes and creating a rift in the clubhouse.

Of course, pretty much none of Larussa's players like him anyway, and I think it has alot to do with their inability to be consistent. Clubhouse and chemistry problems is my reasoning that they struggle at times.

Just my $.02 cents.

ya say what ya want about dusty but he never calls guys out in the media.

abish1572
08-19-2010, 08:20 PM
ima laugh if hes the one that helps the cards beat us next time. I wouldn't brag until its over guys. just saying.

Vottomatic
08-19-2010, 09:06 PM
ima laugh if hes the one that helps the cards beat us next time. I wouldn't brag until its over guys. just saying.

Phillips already told Hal McCoy he hates Feliz and thinks he's a whiny you know what. ;)

xavr1
08-19-2010, 09:33 PM
God Feliz sucks. I think he is a significant downgrade offensively from Felipe.

mu4103
08-19-2010, 09:37 PM
Good trade for both teams. Feliz can be streaky and he could play a big part in getting the Cards hot again. Hopefully for the Reds, this doesn't happen.

New York Red
08-19-2010, 09:40 PM
If this is an upgrade at all, it's only slightly. Thanks for scaring me with the thread title though. :eek:

LeDoux
08-19-2010, 09:43 PM
Pedro Feliz is what happens when your farm system isn't producing and you overpay of a handful of elite players.

davereds24
08-19-2010, 10:13 PM
Pedro Feliz is what happens when your farm system isn't producing and you overpay of a handful of elite players.

Lets not get carried away here. Feliz just played in 2 World Series' and until this season would be considered a much better backup than Cairo. Going to a winning team will probably help his production unfortunately.

Who exactly do the Cards overpay? I'd say the Reds overpay their top players moreso than the Cards.

LeDoux
08-19-2010, 11:07 PM
Lets not get carried away here. Feliz just played in 2 World Series' and until this season would be considered a much better backup than Cairo. Going to a winning team will probably help his production unfortunately.

Who exactly do the Cards overpay? I'd say the Reds overpay their top players moreso than the Cards.

You may be right and Feliz may go on a tear, but with the season he has had, both on defense and at the plate, I think the odds are long. With a -2.1 UZR and .555 OPS he will have to vastly improve to give the help the Cards need at 3B.

Who do they overpay? Matt Holliday is who I was thinking of. I elevate the Harang/Lohse deals to bad contracts, not just overpayment.

HalMorrisRules
08-20-2010, 01:34 AM
Keith Law just tweeted the following:


keithlaw: Had a user unfollow me for "bashing" Pedro Feliz. He didn't explain how a corner infielder with a 49 OPS+ doesn't stink. #goodriddance

MikeThierry
08-20-2010, 01:39 AM
Pedro Feliz is what happens when your farm system isn't producing and you overpay of a handful of elite players.

Well, as a Cards fan, I actually like the trade. Only the Cubs have more errors at 3rd base this year than the Cards. The Cards have 22 errors at that position this year compared to the Cubs 24. Lopez has been a good player but he isn't a 3rd baseman nor was he signed to be an every day player. I think Feliz will provide more stability at 3rd and really that's what the Cards need. This week, for example, Lopez committed two errors and ultimately it cost the Cardinals a victory against the Brewers. I can think of other issues not even error related that have cost the Cards victories this year at the 3rd base whether it be lack of range, bad throws that Albert has to pick from the dirt, or just basic fundamental flaws. Also, Lopez has been injured and it has really had an effect on his hitting ability. Since the All Star Break he has essentially done nothing at the plate.

What I also like about Felize is that while he has always traditionally had a bad OBP and BA, he still gets a lot of RBI's. For example, in 2006 he had a .244 BA with a .281 OBP while playing with San Fransisco yet he still managed to get 98 RBI's. He just seems to have a knack for getting RBI's throughout his career even with his sub-par batting statistics. Right now, the Cards are having trouble scoring runs so maybe putting him in the 7 hole will help in that respect.

Laugh all you want at the trade but the bottom line is that it will help the Cardinals more than you think and this trade should not be overlooked. Is it on par with a Derrick Lee trade? No. However there will be a noticeable difference in the play at 3rd.

I also want to address the farm system issue. I think the reason why there seems to be a lack of development in that regard is because of timing. Allen Craig, who is an outfielder now, was a developing 3rd baseman until we drafted Brett Wallace. We also got David Freese from the Padres in the Edmonds trade. It was a position that was filling up with depth. However, we traded Wallace to get Holliday (which was a traded that needed to happen) and Freese made the club this year. Last year, the position was one of depth, now because of trades and big league roster moves, its not. Unfortunately, Freese was injured and its a weak position now. Brian Cox, our first round draft pick this year, is a 3rd baseman and was regarded as one of the best hitters in the draft (slightly behind Bryce Harper). They are trying to rebuild that position but it is going to take time.

takealeake
08-20-2010, 01:40 AM
LOL Feliz.

MikeThierry
08-20-2010, 01:44 AM
Also I can't think of anyone that we are overpaying besides Loshe. The Pujol's contract may have been one of the best contracts in Cards history. We got an MVP and arguably the best hitter in decades while only paying him 13-15 million a year. You can't really say Carp is overpayed considering he almost won the Cy Young (won it once actually) and has been dominant his whole time as a Cardinal. The Holliday deal is arguable but he has produced well for the Cards this year. Part of the Holliday deal was in response to what the market paid for Bay so I can't really blame the Cards for paying what they are paying. The only person I can see for them "overpaying" is Loshe. To me, when someone is overpaid, they aren't performing up to their contract. If said player is making 15 million a year but has an outside chance of winning the triple crown, the contract is worth it.

LeDoux
08-20-2010, 01:03 PM
Also I can't think of anyone that we are overpaying besides Loshe. The Pujol's contract may have been one of the best contracts in Cards history. We got an MVP and arguably the best hitter in decades while only paying him 13-15 million a year. You can't really say Carp is overpayed considering he almost won the Cy Young (won it once actually) and has been dominant his whole time as a Cardinal. The Holliday deal is arguable but he has produced well for the Cards this year. Part of the Holliday deal was in response to what the market paid for Bay so I can't really blame the Cards for paying what they are paying. The only person I can see for them "overpaying" is Loshe. To me, when someone is overpaid, they aren't performing up to their contract. If said player is making 15 million a year but has an outside chance of winning the triple crown, the contract is worth it.

If I were a Cards fan, I would not have been happy about the Holliday contract. 120 million/7 is too much money to tie up on LF. It also raised the asking price of Pujols. Does anyone think they will sign him for less than 140 million over 5-7 years? I think most would consider that a very conservative estimate. So the Cards spend +40% of their payroll of 1B and LF? They seem to be following in the footsteps of the Astros of the 2000s. Overburdered with big contracts on the non-premium positions.

Having an MVP on the team is great, but titles do (not) help the team win. In fact they cost you more money in contract negotiations. If I were the Cards I would take the Pujols 2011 option then let him become a Yankee. Maybe then they could address the significant holes at the other infield positions. Maybe then they would not have to choose between Miles-Lopez-Feliz to cover the hot corner.

HalMorrisRules
08-20-2010, 02:48 PM
Fangraphs checks in on the Feliz trade and...well they arent big fans of the deal.

Cardinals Acquire Feliz, Are Now Worse/ (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/cardinals-acquire-feliz-are-now-worse/)

Here's the money quote:


Given Feliz’s advanced age, the decline in his other skills, his career .267 BABIP, and his 4% drop in line drive rate, that BABIP doesn’t appear to be bad luck, it just appears to be a complete lack of Major League ability. Throw in a glove that has gone from elite to poor – his UZR, RZR, and TZ are all far, far below their excellent career marks – and the results is a player worth -1.5 WAR in just over 300 plate appearances, making him the worst position player in baseball this season.

Fon Duc Tow
08-20-2010, 06:13 PM
I wonder if the Cards would trade for Rolen at this point...lol

MikeThierry
08-21-2010, 04:55 AM
If I were a Cards fan, I would not have been happy about the Holliday contract. 120 million/7 is too much money to tie up on LF. It also raised the asking price of Pujols. Does anyone think they will sign him for less than 140 million over 5-7 years? I think most would consider that a very conservative estimate. So the Cards spend +40% of their payroll of 1B and LF? They seem to be following in the footsteps of the Astros of the 2000s. Overburdered with big contracts on the non-premium positions.

Having an MVP on the team is great, but titles do (not) help the team win. In fact they cost you more money in contract negotiations. If I were the Cards I would take the Pujols 2011 option then let him become a Yankee. Maybe then they could address the significant holes at the other infield positions. Maybe then they would not have to choose between Miles-Lopez-Feliz to cover the hot corner.

Well you have to understand that the Cards are dealing with a different financial situation than the Reds are, for example. They can afford to expand the payroll. It wouldn't surprise me if they were able to expand the payroll to about 120 million without raising prices because they consistently have been getting 3 million plus fans a year for about a decade or so now while keeping the payroll in that 85-100 million range.

I personally don't mind the Holliday contract because we got him for more than just offensive production. Its what he does to the rest of the lineup that makes him valuable. The protection of Pujols being #1. I remember before Holliday got traded to the Cardinals, it was almost an automatic walk when Pujols got to the plate. While he still leads the league in intentional walks, teams now have to account for Holliday and I have noticed teams approaches have changed regarding Pujols. I actually think it might be one of the reasons why he seems to be having a "down year". Teams are pitching to him more.

scott91575
09-04-2010, 08:17 PM
Now 10 for his last 52 (only 2 BB's). 1 extra base hit (it was a HR), and 1 RBI. OPSing under .500 in that time, yes, UNDER .500 (overall with the Cards back to under .600). Yet hey, he hasn't made an error.

To make up for his batting he would have to make every play hit to the left side of the infield, and do a Superman imitation while stealing a home run or two.

Still like the move Mike?

Vottomatic
09-04-2010, 08:36 PM
The trade happened around August 19th (2 weeks ago approximately).........and has paid huge dividends for the Cardinals. Had they not made the trade, they might be 15 games out by now. ;)

MikeThierry
09-07-2010, 03:12 AM
Now 10 for his last 52 (only 2 BB's). 1 extra base hit (it was a HR), and 1 RBI. OPSing under .500 in that time, yes, UNDER .500 (overall with the Cards back to under .600). Yet hey, he hasn't made an error.

To make up for his batting he would have to make every play hit to the left side of the infield, and do a Superman imitation while stealing a home run or two.

Still like the move Mike?

I understand the sarcasm in your post. However I still do like the trade. He has been a rock at 3rd, making his first error I believe yesterday, and is playing better overall ball than Lopez is. Its a good trade if the player is better than the player he is replacing.

scott91575
09-07-2010, 03:37 AM
I understand the sarcasm in your post. However I still do like the trade. He has been a rock at 3rd, making his first error I believe yesterday, and is playing better overall ball than Lopez is. Its a good trade if the player is better than the player he is replacing.

Well, you continue to enjoy that .558 OPS, average play at third, and essentially the worst starter in major league baseball.

MikeThierry
09-07-2010, 04:21 AM
I wouldn't call his play at 3rd average. He has played excellent defense for the Cards, which is something they needed.

Besides, there weren't a whole lot of options out there. If you can think of some options the Cardinals could have had, I would like to know.