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NDRed
08-21-2010, 03:23 AM
According to CBS Sports game notes:

Cincinnati SS Orlando Cabrera, who missed his 15th straight game because of a strained muscle on his left side, said he thinks he'll be able to come off the disabled list Sunday when the Reds face LHP Clayton Kershaw.

So what do they do with Cabrera coming off the DL?

I don't think many of us want to see Janish replaced at this time but I think that's the move when Cabrera comes back. Maybe they will just keep OCab on the DL for another week or so.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/gametracker/recap/MLB_20100820_CIN@LA

Slyder
08-21-2010, 03:29 AM
According to CBS Sports game notes:

Cincinnati SS Orlando Cabrera, who missed his 15th straight game because of a strained muscle on his left side, said he thinks he'll be able to come off the disabled list Sunday when the Reds face LHP Clayton Kershaw.

So what do they do with Cabrera coming off the DL?

I don't think many of us want to see Janish replaced at this time but I think that's the move when Cabrera comes back. Maybe they will just keep OCab on the DL for another week or so.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/gametracker/recap/MLB_20100820_CIN@LA

Cant keep using 6 outfielders. It almost has to be one of them.

NDRed
08-21-2010, 03:58 AM
Gomes is the obvious, and right choice. I'm thinking Nix is the odd man out however.

sabometrics
08-21-2010, 04:07 AM
Dusty and Walt have come this far protecting Gomes and Nix, no reason to believe that will stop now.

Caveat Emperor
08-21-2010, 04:13 AM
Rehab assignment, recall after rosters expand in 10 days.

That's an easy one. ;)

NDRed
08-21-2010, 04:21 AM
Dusty and Walt have come this far protecting Gomes and Nix, no reason to believe that will stop now.

So who do you think gets the boot?

Only other candidates are Jordan Smith or Bill Bray. I am not sure of their roles with Leake in the bullpen but I am assuming they have ditched Leake in the bullpen to reduce his innings and don't really intend on using him much. If Leake really is the long reliever one of those two could go.

NDRed
08-21-2010, 04:24 AM
Rehab assignment, recall after rosters expand in 10 days.

That's an easy one. ;)

For your starting shortstop?

I hope you are right.

Caveat Emperor
08-21-2010, 04:46 AM
For your starting shortstop?

I hope you are right.

If they send someone down to make room for him, that player won't be eligible for post-season play. If they just hold Cabrera on the DL (or on rehab assignment) past 8/31, he can be called back up to the club with no corresponding roster move AND retain his eligibility for post-season play.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.


So who do you think gets the boot?

Only other candidates are Jordan Smith or Bill Bray. I am not sure of their roles with Leake in the bullpen but I am assuming they have ditched Leake in the bullpen to reduce his innings and don't really intend on using him much. If Leake really is the long reliever one of those two could go.

I doubt they go short on the bullpen with no off-day between the LA and San Fran series. Just a hunch on that, though.

Mario-Rijo
08-21-2010, 05:05 AM
So who do you think gets the boot?

Only other candidates are Jordan Smith or Bill Bray. I am not sure of their roles with Leake in the bullpen but I am assuming they have ditched Leake in the bullpen to reduce his innings and don't really intend on using him much. If Leake really is the long reliever one of those two could go.

Sounds about right neither of these teams we are facing on this road trip are offensive juggernauts I think it'd be an astute move. I think it'd be Jordan Smith. Certain guys aren't making the postseason roster anyway and Jordan (along with Bray) is on the bubble, at best.

mth123
08-21-2010, 07:29 AM
The two get out of jail free cards for the post season roster are due to Arredondo and Lincoln. They can send a pitcher down and use one of the exemptions to make him eligible. They have no such option with a position player. IMO, if anyone gets sent down before September 1, its going to be a pitcher. Smith, Leake and Bray would be the candidates.

I'd guess the post season roster will only have an 11 man staff and that the Reds will want that 6th OF available, so I don't see any position players going down.

Mario-Rijo
08-21-2010, 07:54 AM
The two get out of jail free cards for the post season roster are due to Arredondo and Lincoln. They can send a pitcher down and use one of the exemptions to make him eligible. They have no such option with a position player. IMO, if anyone gets sent down before September 1, its going to be a pitcher. Smith, Leake and Bray would be the candidates.

I'd guess the post season roster will only have an 11 man staff and that the Reds will want that 6th OF available, so I don't see any position players going down.

Another good point.

cincrazy
08-21-2010, 08:59 AM
I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see Heisey go. His playing time has been virtually non-existent since Edmonds showed up.

HokieRed
08-21-2010, 10:09 AM
The two get out of jail free cards for the post season roster are due to Arredondo and Lincoln. They can send a pitcher down and use one of the exemptions to make him eligible. They have no such option with a position player. IMO, if anyone gets sent down before September 1, its going to be a pitcher. Smith, Leake and Bray would be the candidates.

I'd guess the post season roster will only have an 11 man staff and that the Reds will want that 6th OF available, so I don't see any position players going down.

Can we reinvent Alonso as a pitcher for the playoffs?

Kc61
08-21-2010, 10:37 AM
The two get out of jail free cards for the post season roster are due to Arredondo and Lincoln. They can send a pitcher down and use one of the exemptions to make him eligible. They have no such option with a position player. IMO, if anyone gets sent down before September 1, its going to be a pitcher. Smith, Leake and Bray would be the candidates.

I'd guess the post season roster will only have an 11 man staff and that the Reds will want that 6th OF available, so I don't see any position players going down.

So Smith or Leake (I doubt Bray) goes down on Sunday or so and the Reds go with 11 pitchers for about 9 days. Then on Sept. 1 he comes back, probably with Fisher, Chapman or both. Sounds right.

Only other alternative is if an outfielder has a nagging injury and gets some DL time. Doubtful, agree that it will be a pitcher for a brief AAA stay.

PuffyPig
08-21-2010, 10:43 AM
I don't think he gets activated on Sunday.

traderumor
08-21-2010, 10:46 AM
I see no reason to keep Leake rotting in the bullpen at this point. Send him down to Louisville ala Wood and let him work out of the pen down there, where it is a lot more easy to get guys work according to a plan rather than trying to get him work in the middle of a pennant race.

CesarGeronimo
08-21-2010, 10:47 AM
I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see Heisey go. His playing time has been virtually non-existent since Edmonds showed up.

This is what I was thinking, too. I'd hate to see it.

Chip R
08-21-2010, 11:47 AM
Rehab assignment, recall after rosters expand in 10 days.

That's an easy one. ;)

Easier said than done. I think a player has to agree to go on a rehab assignment. I think if OCab feels he's ready to go, he's not going down to the minors.


I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see Heisey go. His playing time has been virtually non-existent since Edmonds showed up.

I'll bet that's the move.

redsfandan
08-21-2010, 12:04 PM
I see no reason to keep Leake rotting in the bullpen at this point. Send him down to Louisville ala Wood and let him work out of the pen down there, where it is a lot more easy to get guys work according to a plan rather than trying to get him work in the middle of a pennant race.
That would work for me. Give him another start or two in AAA. He can do that and then go back to the bullpen and still be ok innings wise. His performance as a starter just won't matter as much in AAA as it would have with the Reds.

RedLegSuperStar
08-21-2010, 12:11 PM
I'd be ok with Bray or Smith being sent down. Both most likely won't be on the post season roster anyway.

My prediction on the 25 man roster for the playoffs:

Cueto
Arroyo
Volquez
Bailey
Wood
Leake
Chapman
Rhodes
Masset
Ondrusek
Cordero

Hanigan
Hernendez

Votto
Edmonds
Phillips
Cairo
Cabrera
Janish
Rolen

Bruce
Stubbs
Gomes
Nix
Heisey

alexad
08-21-2010, 12:50 PM
The way they talked last night on the radio, it appears he will not be ready until they get back home from the Giants series. I would not rush him with the play of Janish. Get him rested up for the stretch drive. We are going to need him. I think he stays on the 15 day DL until September 1.

VR
08-21-2010, 01:06 PM
I don't think he gets activated on Sunday.

Why rush him back? Janish has been excellent. Send him on a rehab, ease him back into it.

The Red Sox thought Pedroia and Ellsbury were ready. They weren't, and now there's a big set back.

kaldaniels
08-21-2010, 01:08 PM
No Edmonds for you Redleg?

RedLegSuperStar
08-21-2010, 01:42 PM
No Edmonds for you Redleg?

I have Edmonds under Votto as a backup first basemen. 6 OFs is nuts

RedLegSuperStar
08-21-2010, 01:44 PM
The way they talked last night on the radio, it appears he will not be ready until they get back home from the Giants series. I would not rush him with the play of Janish. Get him rested up for the stretch drive. We are going to need him. I think he stays on the 15 day DL until September 1.

i agree.. but we are talking 10 days til September 1st..

RedsManRick
08-21-2010, 01:56 PM
I'm guessing we'll see Jordan Smith go down for the week. He's struggled in his last two innings and Leake can take his role no problem.

puca
08-21-2010, 02:01 PM
No way it would be Heisey. He is too valuable a bat off the bench to lose for the playoffs. I agree with most here that they will send a pitcher down if the feel the need to activate Cabrera before Sept. 1.

mth123
08-21-2010, 02:15 PM
I'd be ok with Bray or Smith being sent down. Both most likely won't be on the post season roster anyway.

My prediction on the 25 man roster for the playoffs:

Cueto
Arroyo
Volquez
Bailey
Wood
Leake
Chapman
Rhodes
Masset
Ondrusek
Cordero

Hanigan
Hernendez

Votto
Edmonds
Phillips
Cairo
Cabrera
Janish
Rolen

Bruce
Stubbs
Gomes
Nix
Heisey

Exactly how I see it. I hope Edmonds only work comes as an OF though. Come play-off time I don't think Votto sits unless disaster has struck.

mth123
08-21-2010, 02:18 PM
I'm guessing we'll see Jordan Smith go down for the week. He's struggled in his last two innings and Leake can take his role no problem.

Performance wise, I think Smith goes down. I wouldn't be opposed to Leake going down to start and then simply shutting him down and going with Fisher, Smith or Bray. Play-off opposition may require an extra lefty. I'm not a huge Bray fan, but I'd rather have him in the pen than Leake if a team like Philly is the opponent.

LawFive
08-21-2010, 02:18 PM
I'm just giddy over the fact we actually have cause to debate a playoff roster.

Brutus
08-21-2010, 02:20 PM
If they send someone down to make room for him, that player won't be eligible for post-season play. If they just hold Cabrera on the DL (or on rehab assignment) past 8/31, he can be called back up to the club with no corresponding roster move AND retain his eligibility for post-season play.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.



I doubt they go short on the bullpen with no off-day between the LA and San Fran series. Just a hunch on that, though.

I agree. I think it's a no-brainer.

Brutus
08-21-2010, 02:20 PM
Easier said than done. I think a player has to agree to go on a rehab assignment. I think if OCab feels he's ready to go, he's not going down to the minors.



I'll bet that's the move.

You are correct that a player has to give written permission. However, I think the Reds could convince him it's just for 8 more days.

Chip R
08-21-2010, 02:30 PM
You are correct that a player has to give written permission. However, I think the Reds could convince him it's just for 8 more days.


Possibly. The Reds could use Pedroia & Ellsbury as examples as VR stated earlier.

dfs
08-21-2010, 02:33 PM
According to CBS Sports game notes:

Cincinnati SS Orlando Cabrera, who missed his 15th straight game because of a strained muscle on his left side, said he thinks he'll be able to come off the disabled list Sunday when the Reds face LHP Clayton Kershaw.

So what do they do with Cabrera coming off the DL?

I don't think many of us want to see Janish replaced at this time but I think that's the move when Cabrera comes back. Maybe they will just keep OCab on the DL for another week or so.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/gametracker/recap/MLB_20100820_CIN@LA

They send him to the minors to rehab and hope for an injury in the outfield.

mth123
08-21-2010, 02:46 PM
They send him to the minors to rehab and hope for an injury in the outfield.

I don't get it. The pitching staff has at least two guys who won't see the play-off roster and two more exemptions thanks to the 60 day DL. If Cabrera is back before Sept 1, the moves would only involve a pitcher. The position players all need to be on the roster or DL on Sept 1 or they aren't eligible.

HokieRed
08-21-2010, 03:08 PM
I don't get it. The pitching staff has at least two guys who won't see the play-off roster and two more exemptions thanks to the 60 day DL. If Cabrera is back before Sept 1, the moves would only involve a pitcher. The position players all need to be on the roster or DL on Sept 1 or they aren't eligible.

Agree. To me this is obvious: Bill Bray.

Chip R
08-21-2010, 04:04 PM
Agree. To me this is obvious: Bill Bray.

So you want to go with only 1 lefty out of the bullpen for 10 days?

Caveat Emperor
08-21-2010, 04:12 PM
I don't get it. The pitching staff has at least two guys who won't see the play-off roster and two more exemptions thanks to the 60 day DL. If Cabrera is back before Sept 1, the moves would only involve a pitcher. The position players all need to be on the roster or DL on Sept 1 or they aren't eligible.

As Chip is pointing out, you're talking about running on a short pen with no off days until Thursday. Keeping the bullpen fresh and healthy is of paramount importance. Smith and Bray might be longshots for a postseason roster, but they can both log innings (both competent innings and blow-out / mop-up innings) to limit the work of everyone else. With Volquez taking another start on Monday, those two might be needed just to get the ball TO the end of the bullpen.

There's simply no sense to sending them down to activate a position player that isn't demonstrably better than the guy he'd be replacing in the middle of a huge road trip. After the off day, I'm good with whatever -- but by then, you'll only be 5 days from rosters expanding anyway.

HokieRed
08-21-2010, 04:50 PM
So you want to go with only 1 lefty out of the bullpen for 10 days?

If the second one's Bill Bray, yes.

LoganBuck
08-21-2010, 05:21 PM
The smart play is to send Leake down. If Travis Wood can take a turn in Louisville so can Mike Leake.

puca
08-21-2010, 05:22 PM
If the second one's Bill Bray, yes.

Nah, it will be Leake or Smith if Cabrera is activated soon. They won't go down to a single lefty in the pen for that long.

I wouldn't complain if they swapped Bray and Chapman before Sept 1 though.

Frankly I think it is too bad (for the Reds) if Cabrera does come back. My prefered move would be send down Jordan or Leake and bring up Francisco before Sept 1. I would much rather have Janish starting and Franciso on the bench come playoff time than Cabrera starting and Janish on the bench.

Scrap Irony
08-21-2010, 05:29 PM
If Cabrera is even close to ready, he'll be called up before Spetember 1, as he couldn't play in the playoffs at all if it's any later than that.

Since you have two "open" spots for pitchers, I'd assume one of them will go down for him.

Six OF, two back-up middle infielders, eleven pitchers?

What, are we stuck in the 80's?

RedLegSuperStar
08-21-2010, 05:30 PM
What is it with Leake and a demotion? I can't see sending a guy who we know can get big leaguers out down and keep guys like Smith and Bray. Leake may or may not get the same amount of innings down in Louisville but why move him from the rotation to the bullpen then to the minors?

I get the fact that he has a set limit on innings.. But going to Louisville doesn't make sense if he'd be going down there to pitch one or two innings..

Chip R
08-21-2010, 05:36 PM
What is it with Leake and a demotion? I can't see sending a guy who we know can get big leaguers out down and keep guys like Smith and Bray. Leake may or may not get the same amount of innings down in Louisville but why move him from the rotation to the bullpen then to the minors?

I get the fact that he has a set limit on innings.. But going to Louisville doesn't make sense if he'd be going down there to pitch one or two innings..

I agree. Why burn an option?

LoganBuck
08-21-2010, 05:46 PM
I agree. Why burn an option?

Do options matter in regards to Mike Leake? Sure it is a nice by line for Mike Leake to say he never pitched in the minors, but is that really that important during a playoff run? Furthermore, why not swap Bill Bray for Aroldis Chapman right now? I don't care if Jordan Smith goes down either, but lets not forget that Jordan Smith has a big future in Cincinnati as well.

guttle11
08-21-2010, 05:48 PM
I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see Heisey go. His playing time has been virtually non-existent since Edmonds showed up.

I agree. I think Heisey goes until either another OFer gets hurt (hope not) or September 1st.

OnBaseMachine
08-21-2010, 06:03 PM
It wouldn't bother me one bit if they DFA'd Gomes to open a spot for Cabrera.

Chip R
08-21-2010, 06:07 PM
Do options matter in regards to Mike Leake? Sure it is a nice by line for Mike Leake to say he never pitched in the minors, but is that really that important during a playoff run? Furthermore, why not swap Bill Bray for Aroldis Chapman right now? I don't care if Jordan Smith goes down either, but lets not forget that Jordan Smith has a big future in Cincinnati as well.

Sure they do. Not for the prestige but if you burn an option this year, he's only got 2 left. Suppose he doesn't make the team next year then he only has one option left. Why limit yourself in the future for a week and a half stint in the minors this year? He's certainly not hurting anyone being up here.

PuffyPig
08-21-2010, 06:09 PM
It wouldn't bother me one bit if they DFA'd Gomes to open a spot for Cabrera.

I would, only becuase he would end up on the Cards.

He's certainly better than guys like Stavinoa, Winn, Craig etc.

RED VAN HOT
08-21-2010, 08:03 PM
It is rare to play five days in a row during the playoffs. Thus, it makes the most sense to go with eleven pitchers. That leaves 6 OF's, 6 IF's, and 2 C's. The OC problem is solved. That is also a really deep, experienced bench for the playoffs.

Then the question is who will be the 11 pitchers. Cordero, Rhodes, Masset, and Ondusek are locks. Chapman should replace Bray. I believe they will go six starters for the other positions. Four will be needed to start and two will go to the pen. The Reds can use the month of September to sort it out. If I had to guess now, I would say that Arroyo, Bailey, Cueto, and Wood start and Leake and Volquez go the pen. The Reds would have a lot of flexibility as well as some power arms (Masset, Chapman, Voquez) coming out of the pen.

Ghosts of 1990
08-21-2010, 08:16 PM
It is rare to play five days in a row during the playoffs. Thus, it makes the most sense to go with eleven pitchers. That leaves 6 OF's, 6 IF's, and 2 C's. The OC problem is solved. That is also a really deep, experienced bench for the playoffs.

Then the question is who will be the 11 pitchers. Cordero, Rhodes, Masset, and Ondusek are locks. Chapman should replace Bray. I believe they will go six starters for the other positions. Four will be needed to start and two will go to the pen. The Reds can use the month of September to sort it out. If I had to guess now, I would say that Arroyo, Bailey, Cueto, and Wood start and Leake and Volquez go the pen. The Reds would have a lot of flexibility as well as some power arms (Masset, Chapman, Voquez) coming out of the pen.

I think you nailed what's going to happen my friend.

mth123
08-21-2010, 09:14 PM
If Cabrera is even close to ready, he'll be called up before Spetember 1, as he couldn't play in the playoffs at all if it's any later than that.

Since you have two "open" spots for pitchers, I'd assume one of them will go down for him.

Six OF, two back-up middle infielders, eleven pitchers?

What, are we stuck in the 80's?

Cabrera would still be eligible if he's on the DL on Sept 1. Leaving him there would be fine, but if he comes off earlier Leake or Smith seem like the only choices. I think they'll wait until the Reds come home myself. Then I think we'll see both Cabrera and Chapman added with Bray and either Smith or Leake demoted.

LoganBuck
08-22-2010, 08:38 AM
Sure they do. Not for the prestige but if you burn an option this year, he's only got 2 left. Suppose he doesn't make the team next year then he only has one option left. Why limit yourself in the future for a week and a half stint in the minors this year? He's certainly not hurting anyone being up here.

Doug can maybe correct me, but I believe Leake gets 4 option years because of the date he signed similar to Yonder Alonso. Are the Reds really looking to keep jerking him around for 4 years?

blumj
08-22-2010, 10:28 AM
Doug can maybe correct me, but I believe Leake gets 4 option years because of the date he signed similar to Yonder Alonso. Are the Reds really looking to keep jerking him around for 4 years?
Someone probably knows this stuff better than I do, but I think you have to use up the first 3 options in a player's first 5 professional seasons to get a 4th, but I also think the option doesn't count as used unless the player spends 20 days in the minors during that season, and you only have to keep him in the minors 10 days before you can bring him back.

They make this stuff absurdly complicated, but it isn't as hard to maneuver players into postseason eligibility as it used to be. A player no longer has to be on the 40 man roster before Sept. 1 to be postseason eligible as an injury replacement, as long as he was in the organization. Most teams play their Aug. 31 game a pitcher short to make an extra position player postseason eligible, because who doesn't have a pitcher on the 60 day DL by Sept.? It's not usually a big deal to replace your worst pitcher with a different worst pitcher, as long as you only have to play 1 game a pitcher short.

Brutus
08-22-2010, 02:54 PM
Doug can maybe correct me, but I believe Leake gets 4 option years because of the date he signed similar to Yonder Alonso. Are the Reds really looking to keep jerking him around for 4 years?

blumj is correct... you get a 4th option year if all 3 get used up in your first 5 professional seasons (defined as being on an active roster for more than 90 days in the year).

In the case of Leake, do I think he'll wind up having all his options used up? No. But that doesn't mean I would want to use one up just to use one. I see no reason to use an option on him this year since we've gotten this far.

mth123
08-22-2010, 03:17 PM
blumj is correct... you get a 4th option year if all 3 get used up in your first 5 professional seasons (defined as being on an active roster for more than 90 days in the year).

In the case of Leake, do I think he'll wind up having all his options used up? No. But that doesn't mean I would want to use one up just to use one. I see no reason to use an option on him this year since we've gotten this far.

Why not? Are there bonus points for keeping them? Option him, let him finish out his season in the AAA rotation and play-offs and shut him down. If a RH arm is needed Carlos Fisher is a better option in relief. If the Reds play the Phils in the post-season another lefty might be handy with Chapman, Bray and Rhodes all in the pen. Another 6 baserunners in 2 and a third last night. Much like the argument that people are using (correctly) to call for Gomes to have a seat, its time to recognize that May was nearly three months ago and Leake not only is the odd man out, but he's not really a good option for getting major league hitters out these days and has had nearly three months of mediocre to poor performances with ERAs of 5.22 in June, 4.56 in July and 5.82 in August.

He needs to continue on his path for 2010 to be ready for 2011 and he's not one of the best 12 or maybe even 15 guys for the major league roster right now. The play-off roster shouldn't include Leake unless injuries to at least 2 or more likely 3 starters require him to man a rotation spot. That is exactly what options are supposed to be used for.

He's thrown 138 Innings. He can go down and get a couple starts in AAA and then a couple in the AAA post season. It would serve him well (much better than sitting in the major league pen waiting for the right situation to get an inning or two). The bonus is that it would delay his free agency by a year, which from a business standpoint is more important than options at this point.

blumj
08-22-2010, 03:23 PM
But they could also option him without using an option, they'd just have to call him back up before 20 days had gone by, and they could either shut him down or pitch him in Sept. and the MLB playoffs, whatever they chose, the only thing they couldn't do is pitch him in the milb playoffs.

mth123
08-22-2010, 03:29 PM
But they could also option him without using an option, they'd just have to call him back up before 20 days had gone by, and they could either shut him down or pitch him in Sept. and the MLB playoffs, whatever they chose, the only thing they couldn't do is pitch him in the milb playoffs.

He's been pretty bad since the beginnng of June. I don't really want to use him. Send him down and let him finish his year in AAA.

Brutus
08-22-2010, 03:52 PM
Why not? Are there bonus points for keeping them? Option him, let him finish out his season in the AAA rotation and play-offs and shut him down. If a RH arm is needed Carlos Fisher is a better option in relief. If the Reds play the Phils in the post-season another lefty might be handy with Chapman, Bray and Rhodes all in the pen. Another 6 baserunners in 2 and a third last night. Much like the argument that people are using (correctly) to call for Gomes to have a seat, its time to recognize that May was nearly three months ago and Leake not only is the odd man out, but he's not really a good option for getting major league hitters out these days and has had nearly three months of mediocre to poor performances with ERAs of 5.22 in June, 4.56 in July and 5.82 in August.

He needs to continue on his path for 2010 to be ready for 2011 and he's not one of the best 12 or maybe even 15 guys for the major league roster right now. The play-off roster shouldn't include Leake unless injuries to at least 2 or more likely 3 starters require him to man a rotation spot. That is exactly what options are supposed to be used for.

He's thrown 138 Innings. He can go down and get a couple starts in AAA and then a couple in the AAA post season. It would serve him well (much better than sitting in the major league pen waiting for the right situation to get an inning or two). The bonus is that it would delay his free agency by a year, which from a business standpoint is more important than options at this point.

I don't think he's been bad and I still believe he will be able to contribute. I thought he pitched well last night against LA. He also had 4 strikeouts and a few of the hits he gave up were by no means indicative of a guy that was getting hit hard.

I don't see the point using an option on a guy for 4 weeks of the season. I just don't.

Brutus
08-22-2010, 03:53 PM
But they could also option him without using an option, they'd just have to call him back up before 20 days had gone by, and they could either shut him down or pitch him in Sept. and the MLB playoffs, whatever they chose, the only thing they couldn't do is pitch him in the milb playoffs.

Yes, that's true, but I wouldn't want to leave him off the postseason roster and I don't think the Reds do either. If nothing else, I think they would like to have him available to them if they need/want.

mth123
08-22-2010, 04:04 PM
I don't think he's been bad and I still believe he will be able to contribute. I thought he pitched well last night against LA. He also had 4 strikeouts and a few of the hits he gave up were by no means indicative of a guy that was getting hit hard.

I don't see the point using an option on a guy for 4 weeks of the season. I just don't.

To delay free agency, you need to use an option. In 2010 when he's approaching his limit, has been pitching poorly and the team has better guys to use in a penant race or play-off series, it seems like as good a time as any. After this season with Owings, Harang and Lincoln not getting any innings, possibly Rhodes and Arroyo gone as free agents, both Burton and Bray likely non-tendered and Danny Rae Herrera probably dropped from the 40 man, the Reds are going to need him to be ready and capable of a full load of innings all year. He's not developping along those lines in a mop-up role, that option won't likely be needed down the road and using it now just allows him to qualify for an extra one later anyway. There is no downside IMO other than possibly hurting his feelings. He's had an ERA well over 5 since Memorial Day, it shouldn't hurt his feelings.

Brutus
08-22-2010, 04:07 PM
To delay free agency, you need to use an option. In 2010 when he's approaching his limit, has been pitching poorly and the team has better guys to use in a penant race or play-off series, it seems like as good a time as any. After this season with Owings, Harang and Lincoln not getting any innings, possibly Rhodes and Arroyo gone as free agents, both Burton and Bray likely non-tendered and Danny Rae Herrera probably dropped from the 40 man, the Reds are going to need him to be ready and capable of a full load of innings all year. He's not developping along those lines in a mop-up role, that option won't likely be needed down the road and using it now just allows him to qualify for an extra one later anyway. There is no downside IMO other than possibly hurting his feelings. He's had an ERA well over 5 since Memorial Day, it shouldn't hurt his feelings.

This isn't about hurting anyone's feelings. He's a better pitcher than Carlos Fisher, Jordan Smith, etc. He's one of the better options they have for middle relief, so they should keep him here.

He's still too good a pitcher to send down. I would much rather have him available to use in the postseason than delay free agency by one more year (which is still several years down the road anyhow). Win now. Sort the rest out later.

blumj
08-22-2010, 04:13 PM
Okay, I'm just saying, they can borrow Leake's roster spot until after Sept. 1 without either burning one of his options or losing an opportunity to put him on a playoff roster. It's a freebie, they can have their cake and eat it, too, whatever kind of cake they prefer.

mth123
08-22-2010, 04:18 PM
This isn't about hurting anyone's feelings. He's a better pitcher than Carlos Fisher, Jordan Smith, etc. He's one of the better options they have for middle relief, so they should keep him here.

He's still too good a pitcher to send down. I would much rather have him available to use in the postseason than delay free agency by one more year (which is still several years down the road anyhow). Win now. Sort the rest out later.

That is where we differ. Leake hasn't really been used as a reliever and we don't really know if that role would suit him. I'd rather have Fisher out of the pen. I'd rather have Smith. I'd rather have Chapman or Bray. I might even rather have Lecure or Maloney at this point but don't really want them either.

For Leake's future, I'd rather have him starting, If he's on an inning limit in 2010 because he threw 142 in 2009, how is that limit going to get higher if he stays in that 140 IP range? I want him getting to 170 in 2010.

As far as the play-off roster goes:

Arroyo
Cueto
Wood
Bailey

Volquez
Chapman
Masset
Ondrusek
Cordero
Bray or maybe Fisher depending on match-ups. I'm no big fan of Bray, but 3 lefty arms might be wise in the post-season. Either way, no reason to keep Leake around.

Brutus
08-22-2010, 04:20 PM
Okay, I'm just saying, they can borrow Leake's roster spot until after Sept. 1 without either burning one of his options or losing an opportunity to put him on a playoff roster. It's a freebie, they can have their cake and eat it, too, whatever kind of cake they prefer.

You are correct that they can do that, but what is really the point? They would be sending him down for a max of 13 days (since he's already spent 6 days in the minors at the beginning of the season) just to call him back up, but would have to use one of the injury exceptions to add him to the playoff roster. I guess it seems they would be just sending him down to send him down.

Again, you are 100% correct about the options they have with him, but I don't see the redeeming value in doing that if they don't want to burn an option. It seems like a valueless exercise if they think Leake can still help the club (and they apparently feel that way).

Brutus
08-22-2010, 04:24 PM
That is where we differ. Leake hasn't really been used as a reliever and we don't really know if that role would suit him. I'd rather have Fisher out of the pen. I'd rather have Smith. I'd rather have Chapman or Bray. I might even rather have Lecure or Maloney at this point but don't really want them either.

For Leake's future, I'd rather have him starting, If he's on an inning limit in 2010 becasue he threw 142 in 2009, how is that limit going to get higher if he stays in that 140 IP range? I want him getting to 170 in 2010.

As far as the play-off roster goes:

Arroyo
Cueto
Wood
Bailey

Volquez
Chapman
Masset
Ondrusek
Cordero
Bray or maybe Fisher depending on match-ups. I'm no big fan of Bray, but 3 lefty arms might be wise in the post-season. Either way, no reason to keep Leake around.

By pitching him in middle relief the rest of the season (like last night), they can probably get to 170 innings but being able to keep him down the stretch instead of getting to 170 and then shutting him down the rest of the season.

There are just over 40 days left in the season. If he pitches every 4th day for 2 innings, he'll add another 20 innings to his total and if they pitch him in the playoffs, he'll come real close to 170.

mth123
08-22-2010, 04:45 PM
By pitching him in middle relief the rest of the season (like last night), they can probably get to 170 innings but being able to keep him down the stretch instead of getting to 170 and then shutting him down the rest of the season.

There are just over 40 days left in the season. If he pitches every 4th day for 2 innings, he'll add another 20 innings to his total and if they pitch him in the playoffs, he'll come real close to 170.

1. That still doesn't address the fact that his been a 5+ ERA guy since Memorial Day. Why do we want to keep him down the stretch?

2. It is using him in a role that he hasn't really prepared for (though if its every 4 days as you suggest it shouldn't hurt him).

3. It blocks them from using a pitcher who doesn't need to be on a 4 day schedule.

4. It doesn't solve the roster decision required when Cabrera returns.

Pesonally, when the Reds get home, I think they should send Leake and Smith down and activate Cabrera and recall Chapman. On September 1, activate Harang and Springer for mop-up inning eating in a blow out duty and wait for the AAA play-offs to end before deciding on anyone else. Maybe they recall Fisher to add another option, but its not needed so much. In a penant race I don't want more pitchers to provide shaky innings. I'd rather have the innings going to the reliable ones. Right now that isn't Leake and if all we need is to eat innings in a blow out, let the vets Harang and Springer do it and let Leake continue to develop in the AAA rotation.

Brutus
08-22-2010, 05:00 PM
1. That still doesn't address the fact that his been a 5+ ERA guy since Memorial Day. Why do we want to keep him down the stretch?

2. It is using him in a role that he hasn't really prepared for (though if its every 4 days as you suggest it shouldn't hurt him).

3. It blocks them from using a pitcher who doesn't need to be on a 4 day schedule.

4. It doesn't solve the roster decision required when Cabrera returns.

Pesonally, when the Reds get home, I think they should send Leake and Smith down and activate Cabrera and recall Chapman. On September 1, activate Harang and Springer for mop-up inning eating in a blow out duty and wait for the AAA play-offs to end before deciding on anyone else. Maybe they recall Fisher to add another option, but its not needed so much. In a penant race I don't want more pitchers to provide shaky innings. I'd rather have the innings going to the reliable ones. Right now that isn't Leake and if all we need is to eat innings in a blow out, let the vets Harang and Springer do it and let Leake continue to develop in the AAA rotation.

1. I am a concerned with much more than just looking at ERA. I don't think ERA is anywhere indicative of what he'll do the rest of the year. It's about adjustments, then making adjustments to the adjustments that are made to you. He even said the other day one of the big problems he's had is throwing too many strikes and needs to adjust to that. The kid is extremely cerebral, I trust him out there before most anyone in the organization.

2. Given the consistency of the rotation to get into the 5th and 6th innings, as a middle reliever, I definitely dont think Leake will pitch extremely often.

3. Leake doesn't have to be on a 4-day schedule. I just think that's how it will average out.

4. There is no problem. Cabrera will be activated on or after September 1. The club is not stupid (or at least this front office isn't). They won't create a roster problem for themselves that can be self-solving in 8 days from now.

OnBaseMachine
08-22-2010, 05:35 PM
From John Fay:


–Jocketty said the Reds will add a third catcher after Sept. , and it will probably be Corky Miller. The Reds will have to make a move to get him on the roster. Mesoraco is not on the roster either.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/22/jocketty-on-owings-damon-and-catching/

RedLegSuperStar
08-22-2010, 05:45 PM
From John Fay:



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/22/jocketty-on-owings-damon-and-catching/

This was obviously coming.. just wouldn't know who gets booted for Corky Miller..

Brutus
08-22-2010, 05:50 PM
From John Fay:



http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2010/08/22/jocketty-on-owings-damon-and-catching/

I'm thinking Del Rosario.

Big Klu
08-22-2010, 06:10 PM
This was obviously coming.. just wouldn't know who gets booted for Corky Miller..


I'm thinking Del Rosario.

Or Herrera.

HokieRed
08-22-2010, 09:39 PM
Anybody really see Chris Valaika making this team next year? If not?--