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OnBaseMachine
08-22-2010, 05:14 AM
This is a great read from Erardi.


(Del Rosario swears he has seen 104, but everybody else quotes 102 - until two nights ago, when Chapman officially lit up the radar guns at Slugger Field with three of his four pitches to one batter registering 104, 104, 103), and has learned not to overthrow his slider at 90-91. Now he's getting late break with the slider at 87-88, and everybody knows he's ready for the big leagues.

Full article:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100821/SPT04/8220378/1071/Transition-on-and-off-field

nemesis
08-22-2010, 06:17 AM
It sounds like he is really embraced his role as a closer and helped him instill confidence in his stuff. It sounds like he might have a touch of ADD and maybe being a starting pitcher isn't best suited for him right now.

icehole3
08-22-2010, 07:31 AM
It sounds like he is really embraced his role as a closer and helped him instill confidence in his stuff. It sounds like he might have a touch of ADD and maybe being a starting pitcher isn't best suited for him right now.

if you think he has ADD, Im just curious, what do you think Votto has? :rolleyes:

traderumor
08-22-2010, 09:30 AM
It sounds like he is really embraced his role as a closer and helped him instill confidence in his stuff. It sounds like he might have a touch of ADD and maybe being a starting pitcher isn't best suited for him right now.I would say he has normal difficulties that early 20s pitchers have learning the demands of professional baseball exacerbated by being raised in a very different culture and now trying to adjust from control to freedom. You try it.

dunner13
08-22-2010, 09:58 AM
I wonder if the reds are not set on him being the closer of the future or if there are still plans on putting him back in the rotation next spring? If he can throw 104 out of the bullpen thats pretty tempting.

Mario-Rijo
08-22-2010, 10:07 AM
More like scary piece by Erardi, seems like he has picked up some of the bad habits of the professional athlete. Hanging out in Miamis night life, driving Lamborghinis, wearing fancy clothes, "loving the action". That lifestyle can be addictive and can get worse in a hurry especially with the fanfare that comes with the big league starring role. Scary!

durl
08-22-2010, 11:09 AM
More like scary piece by Erardi, seems like he has picked up some of the bad habits of the professional athlete. Hanging out in Miamis night life, driving Lamborghinis, wearing fancy clothes, "loving the action". That lifestyle can be addictive and can get worse in a hurry especially with the fanfare that comes with the big league starring role. Scary!

I would almost expect that from a kid (he's still a kid) who went from being in such a restrictive culture to suddenly having LOTS of money and freedom to come and go as he chooses. The question is, will he learn to be a big-league player with staying power who can keep everything in perspective.

The article states that he's learning that he has to be responsible for being ready for games (a new concept to him) and I would hope that his teammates are helping him become aware of the pitfalls that entrap young players.

I think it would be good if the Reds would bring in ex-players to mentor these young, newly-wealthy kids that can help them navigate the process.

The Voice of IH
08-22-2010, 11:13 AM
yea, I hated it also. It sounded like the Reds took a huge risk on an infant that can throw 102 MPH with out any control at the time.

MikeS21
08-22-2010, 11:16 AM
Not at all thrilled with the idea of Chapman as a closer. The Reds need a TOR starter and Chapman is the only one who the Reds have who can fill the role.

UKFlounder
08-22-2010, 11:20 AM
I think starter is the best thing as well, if he can do so (which I have no reason to think he cannot) but a previous poster mentioned he now has to be ready to pitch in any game, instead of just 1 out of every 4 or 5, so maybe that change, even if just to end the 2010 season, will help his maturity or approach a bit.

Redsfan320
08-22-2010, 11:36 AM
Thanks for posting, OBM! Great article.

320

IslandRed
08-22-2010, 12:57 PM
I think starter is the best thing as well, if he can do so (which I have no reason to think he cannot) but a previous poster mentioned he now has to be ready to pitch in any game, instead of just 1 out of every 4 or 5, so maybe that change, even if just to end the 2010 season, will help his maturity or approach a bit.

That's exactly it, I think. Coming from where he came from, simply getting the hang of everything it means to be a professional ballplayer -- that mix of independence, preparation and responsibility -- was and is a bigger challenge than the pitching. He's learning to be a pro and will soon learn to be a big-leaguer, and when the third pitch comes around, he'll likely be a starter.

SunDeck
08-22-2010, 12:59 PM
Seems like inning eating starters are harder to develop than it is to find a solid closer. I hope they are not thinking of him in that role long term.

11larkin11
08-22-2010, 01:01 PM
His lifestyle like this has been well known for awhile now. This article is great to see that he's toning it down a bit.

Bronson is over 30 and still a big partier, but he still gets the job done every 5th day.

Degenerate39
08-22-2010, 01:02 PM
Please just call him up now!

lollipopcurve
08-22-2010, 01:17 PM
Excellent article -- makes the switch to the BP sound ideal for him.

I don't have a strong preference as to whether he starts or relieves -- whatever suits him. A dominant closer for the next 5-6 years at 30 million still sounds good to me.

RedsManRick
08-22-2010, 01:19 PM
This reinforces my thought that he's going to be in the pen for awhile, ala Neftali Feliz.

George Anderson
08-22-2010, 01:31 PM
In a way Chapman adjusting to life as a free man in the USA reminds me of Babe Ruth having to adjust to life as a free man outside of the Orphange.

I hope the comparisons between the two continue.

Degenerate39
08-22-2010, 02:00 PM
In a way Chapman adjusting to life as a free man in the USA reminds me of Babe Ruth having to adjust to life as a free man outside of the Orphange.

I hope the comparisons between the two continue.

I don't know if Chapman can hit 714 home runs though

George Anderson
08-22-2010, 02:05 PM
I don't know if Chapman can hit 714 home runs though

I just hope the Reds don't screw up and sell Chapman to the Yankees for $125,000. :p:

OnBaseMachine
08-22-2010, 02:17 PM
I think we'll see Chapman in the role he belongs in next season - the starting rotation. His arm is too good to waste in the bullpen. I don't know how his changeup has looked lately but it drew some serious praise from hitters during spring training, and I also remember reading Will Carroll's perspective on Chapman after he watched him pitch in Louisville, and he too was impressed with his changeup, calling it a future plus pitch. With two current plus pitches, and possibly another, Chapman belongs in the rotation, IMO.

BCubb2003
08-22-2010, 02:23 PM
I just hope the Reds don't screw up and sell Chapman to the Yankees for $125,000. :p:

I hope he lays off the hotdogs and whatever else caused the "bellyache" ...

Degenerate39
08-22-2010, 02:25 PM
Does anyone know what the average speed of Chapman's fast ball is?

Brutus
08-22-2010, 02:49 PM
This reinforces my thought that he's going to be in the pen for awhile, ala Neftali Feliz.

I could see that, but didn't Jocketty say last week they were going to transition him back to the starting role in the spring?

OnBaseMachine
08-22-2010, 02:54 PM
I could see that, but didn't Jocketty say last week they were going to transition him back to the starting role in the spring?

Yep. He mentioned the possibility of sending Chapman to the Arizona Fall League with the intention of transitioning back into a starter.

Tommyjohn25
08-22-2010, 02:54 PM
Does anyone know what the average speed of Chapman's fast ball is?

1,635?

Brutus
08-22-2010, 02:56 PM
Yep. He mentioned the possibility of sending Chapman to the Arizona Fall League with the intention of transitioning back into a starter.

Thanks, OBM. I thought that was the case but wasn't positive.

I like the idea of Chapman as the closer next year for the Reds, but since I doubt there will be any way of moving Cordero, it seems that's just not going to happen. Since, long term, I would rather have Chapman as a starter, may as well begin that transition sooner rather than later.

RedsManRick
08-22-2010, 03:09 PM
For those in the Chapman as starter in 2011 camp, who else is in your rotation. Ultimately, I think he has his greatest impact as a starter, I'm just not sure who you take out.

Arroyo, Cueto, Wood, Volquez, Leake -- that's the obvious top 5 for 2011 right now. Most people close to the org seem to believe Arroyo will be retained. Cueto isn't going anywhere. For me, Volquez is the obvious bullpen candidate, but I don't get the sense that that's a popular sentiment either.

mth123
08-22-2010, 03:38 PM
Chapman in the bullpen could work. Next year the obvious role would be to replace Rhodes with him. In 2012 he could slide into the closer role with Joseph becoming the Lefty set-up guy.

If the others can man the rotation and some one like Volquez or Bailey can evolve into an ace, it may be the best use of the team's assets. The plan was never to use Rivera or Papelbon as a closer long term, but it worked out that way and served their teams pretty well.

Chapman's best use is probably as a starter with TOR potential, but his clearest path the the majors is in the pen where the openings that fit him are all lined up for him.

durl
08-22-2010, 03:44 PM
While I like the idea of Chapman in the rotation I'd be fine with him in the bullpen...IF that's the best role for him. I thought it was interesting that the article mentions that Chapman seems to keep his composure better as a reliever and that he gets a little too worked up as he anticipates his next start.

The arm is only part of the equation; what's in between his ears has a lot to do with which role suits him best.

nate
08-22-2010, 04:16 PM
For those in the Chapman as starter in 2011 camp, who else is in your rotation. Ultimately, I think he has his greatest impact as a starter, I'm just not sure who you take out.

Arroyo, Cueto, Wood, Volquez, Leake -- that's the obvious top 5 for 2011 right now. Most people close to the org seem to believe Arroyo will be retained. Cueto isn't going anywhere. For me, Volquez is the obvious bullpen candidate, but I don't get the sense that that's a popular sentiment either.

I think Arroyo isn't re-signed. He said he won't take a hometown discount and I don't know if the Reds could or even should match what he's likely to get in FA.

I don't know how he's gotten it done for the Reds but somehow, he has. I do feel that it might be time for some other team to finance his mandrake root, pointy hat and wand.

Brutus
08-22-2010, 04:26 PM
I think Arroyo isn't re-signed. He said he won't take a hometown discount and I don't know if the Reds could or even should match what he's likely to get in FA.

I don't know how he's gotten it done for the Reds but somehow, he has. I do feel that it might be time for some other team to finance his mandrake root, pointy hat and wand.

He doesn't need to be re-signed. The club holds an option for him next year.

Mario-Rijo
08-22-2010, 05:44 PM
For those in the Chapman as starter in 2011 camp, who else is in your rotation. Ultimately, I think he has his greatest impact as a starter, I'm just not sure who you take out.

Arroyo, Cueto, Wood, Volquez, Leake -- that's the obvious top 5 for 2011 right now. Most people close to the org seem to believe Arroyo will be retained. Cueto isn't going anywhere. For me, Volquez is the obvious bullpen candidate, but I don't get the sense that that's a popular sentiment either.

I said it earlier in the season and I still feel the same way, Arroyo's option shouldn't be picked up IF the Reds make the playoffs this year. Yeah I can see how it makes sense to retain him to be an innings eater in a mostly young rotation but we have too many good options and that money makes sense elsewhere. We have 5 good starters without Bronson plus LeCure at AAA not sure about Maloney's status but if so that's 7 reliable starters plus Chapman makes 8. If we don't make the playoffs I'd consider keeping Bronson just because he'd be the only starter with any remote idea of how to show the youngsters how to approach the playoffs/handle the pressures of the situation.

RFS62
08-22-2010, 07:25 PM
I believe we'll pick up his option. Innings eater extraordinaire.

We can always move him before the deadline if we have the good fortune to have too many good starters by then.

buckeyenut
08-22-2010, 07:45 PM
With the year Arroyo has had, there is NO WAY you let him walk. 12M for the type of numbers he has put up is a steal and as such, you have a valuable asset. Why would you let it walk away for nothing?

Now, will he be on the team next year? Whole other question. You probably have to make some tough choices and deal someone. All depends on what kind of offers you get but I would not be opposed to dealing Arroyo during offseason. Nor would I be opposed to dealing one of the kids.

SunDeck
08-22-2010, 09:22 PM
Does anyone know what the average speed of Chapman's fast ball is?

345 mph.
Pretty sure of that.

OnBaseMachine
08-23-2010, 02:21 PM
Kevin Goldstein has a small piece up on Aroldis Chapman at Baseball Prospectus.


He arguably has better stuff than any southpaw in the big leagues, and could address one of Cincinnati's few weaknesses.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=11824

OnBaseMachine
08-23-2010, 02:25 PM
That's some high praise when you look at all the great lefties in the major leagues: Cliff Lee, C.C. Sabathia, David Price, Johan Santana, Clayton Kershaw, Jon Lester, Francisco Liriano, Cole Hamels.

Roy Tucker
08-23-2010, 02:35 PM
I just wonder where he parks his Lamborghini. That's not the kind of car you just leave in an apartment complex parking lot.

A far cry from Chris Sabo's '82 Ford Escort.

VR
08-23-2010, 02:45 PM
I just wonder where he parks his Lamborghini. That's not the kind of car you just leave in an apartment complex parking lot.

A far cry from Chris Sabo's '82 Ford Escort.

Just make sure it's not in Jocketty's spot.

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2010, 01:25 PM
Article from Jeff Fletcher:


Although the Reds see Chapman as a bullpen weapon in the short-term, Jocketty said he'll be a starter again next spring. He said he doesn't believe Chapman's repertoire plays better as a reliever, just that the role worked better for him in his first time through pro baseball.

"I think it's just him getting acclimated," Jocketty said. "Next year we'll put him back in the rotation. With this year being such a big change, it simplified things, using him out of the bullpen, making the baseball side of it real simple."

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/08/24/a-revelation-in-relief-aroldis-chapman-will-join-reds-bullpen-i/

15fan
08-25-2010, 02:45 PM
From the original article:

Chapman is a two-pitch pitcher. He has the famous, over-powering fastball, 97 to 102 (Del Rosario swears he has seen 104, but everybody else quotes 102 - until two nights ago, when Chapman officially lit up the radar guns at Slugger Field with three of his four pitches to one batter registering 104, 104, 103), and has learned not to overthrow his slider at 90-91. Now he's getting late break with the slider at 87-88, and everybody knows he's ready for the big leagues.

A third pitch, the changeup, will be the last to come.

That's what he needs to be a legit starter. A 3rd pitch.

If Mario Soto can teach 1 guy 1 pitch, let it be a change to Chapman.

Cedric
08-25-2010, 02:48 PM
From the original article:

Chapman is a two-pitch pitcher. He has the famous, over-powering fastball, 97 to 102 (Del Rosario swears he has seen 104, but everybody else quotes 102 - until two nights ago, when Chapman officially lit up the radar guns at Slugger Field with three of his four pitches to one batter registering 104, 104, 103), and has learned not to overthrow his slider at 90-91. Now he's getting late break with the slider at 87-88, and everybody knows he's ready for the big leagues.

A third pitch, the changeup, will be the last to come.

That's what he needs to be a legit starter. A 3rd pitch.

If Mario Soto can teach 1 guy 1 pitch, let it be a change to Chapman.

Does anyone know of any true power pitchers that threw a changeup though? I know Randy Johnson, Nolan, Clemens didn't.

Wonder if throwing a changeup at 90-92 is really a good idea to major league hitters. Clemens and other true power pitchers seem to go to the splitter as their 2nd/3rd pitch.

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2010, 02:53 PM
From the original article:

Chapman is a two-pitch pitcher. He has the famous, over-powering fastball, 97 to 102 (Del Rosario swears he has seen 104, but everybody else quotes 102 - until two nights ago, when Chapman officially lit up the radar guns at Slugger Field with three of his four pitches to one batter registering 104, 104, 103), and has learned not to overthrow his slider at 90-91. Now he's getting late break with the slider at 87-88, and everybody knows he's ready for the big leagues.

A third pitch, the changeup, will be the last to come.

That's what he needs to be a legit starter. A 3rd pitch.

If Mario Soto can teach 1 guy 1 pitch, let it be a change to Chapman.

Chapman has a changeup, though I'm not sure how often he uses it. His changeup drew rave reviews in spring training from players, coaches, and scouts too. I'm not sure how good of a pitch it's been lately but I can remember Will Carroll making some comments back in April about how impressed he was with his changeup when he saw him in Louisville.

OnBaseMachine
08-27-2010, 04:07 PM
More from John Erardi:


I asked Louisville Bats catcher, Wilkin Castillo, if he thought Chapman is ready for the big leagues.

The Dominican answered it this way in his lightly accented Spanish accent: "Slider on the corner, fastball low and inside. Right there. He is ready."


http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100826/COL19/8270363/1156/COL19/Chapman-s-ready-for-the-big-leagues

Caveat Emperor
08-27-2010, 04:17 PM
Glad this movement to the bullpen is only a temporary thing. It'd be a horrific waste of talent to see Chapman relegated to 1 inning per night.

OnBaseMachine
08-27-2010, 11:05 PM
Aroldis Chapman tonight: 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 3 K, 14 pitches/11 strikes. According to the announcers, Chapman hit 105 mph on the radar gun. Amazing.

Homer Bailey
08-27-2010, 11:05 PM
Ramsey just tweeted that Chapman may have just hit 105 MPH.

Caveat Emperor
08-27-2010, 11:07 PM
Ramsey just tweeted that Chapman may have just hit 105 MPH.

The best part about Chapman coming up now is that he'll be pitching to a full house. I can't wait to hear the crowd reaction when the stadium gun at GABP goes to 102-103 for the first time.

LoganBuck
08-27-2010, 11:13 PM
Steve Nebraska is jealous!

RedsMan3203
08-27-2010, 11:13 PM
Ramsey just tweeted that Chapman may have just hit 105 MPH.

Confirmed...


mo22maloney

@Jamieblog saw it with my own eyes.

Orenda
08-27-2010, 11:15 PM
The best part about Chapman coming up now is that he'll be pitching to a full house. I can't wait to hear the crowd reaction when the stadium gun at GABP goes to 102-103 for the first time.

ok im a little hesitant to believe that he is hitting 105 on a working radar gun. But still... the hype is exciting

kaldaniels
08-27-2010, 11:17 PM
Math majors...if he throws 105 mph what would that be like, a 99 mph pitch from 58 feet or so?

OnBaseMachine
08-27-2010, 11:24 PM
From Ed Price:

Aroldis Chapman tonight hit 105 mph and "sat at" 103, with a 90-91 slider. Scout: "best fastball I have ever witnessed" #reds

http://twitter.com/ed_price

OnBaseMachine
08-27-2010, 11:38 PM
Chapman's last 19 appearances:

20.2 IP, 10 H, 5 BB, 35 K, 0.89 ERA, 2.23 BB/9, 15.60 K/9

VR
08-27-2010, 11:38 PM
Steve Nebraska is jealous!

and Sidd Finch is getting concerned.

paulrichjr
08-27-2010, 11:46 PM
and Sidd Finch is getting concerned.

:lol:

redsfandan
08-28-2010, 12:10 AM
More like scary piece by Erardi, seems like he has picked up some of the bad habits of the professional athlete. Hanging out in Miamis night life, driving Lamborghinis, wearing fancy clothes, "loving the action". That lifestyle can be addictive and can get worse in a hurry especially with the fanfare that comes with the big league starring role. Scary!
I'm not going to worry too much about that right now. He's young and he just came into alot of money. Where his priorities are in Sept., next year, the year after, etc is much more important.

For those in the Chapman as starter in 2011 camp, who else is in your rotation. Ultimately, I think he has his greatest impact as a starter, I'm just not sure who you take out.

Arroyo, Cueto, Wood, Volquez, Leake -- that's the obvious top 5 for 2011 right now. Most people close to the org seem to believe Arroyo will be retained. Cueto isn't going anywhere. For me, Volquez is the obvious bullpen candidate, but I don't get the sense that that's a popular sentiment either.

I don't think Chapman should even factor into it next year. At least not at the start. He needs to show that he can transfer his relief success to success as a starter first.

15fan
08-28-2010, 01:09 AM
One Oh Five?

That's one heck of a weapon to have in the arsenal for a post-season series against Philly (Howard), Atlanta (Heyward), or San Diego (Gonzalez).

sabometrics
08-28-2010, 01:22 AM
I didn't think that was humanly possible.

RedsManRick
08-28-2010, 01:48 AM
I didn't think that was humanly possible.

Me neither. And frankly, it has me a little worried. I love the results, but how long can he do it for?

sabometrics
08-28-2010, 01:51 AM
Every report I've seen describing his high velocity delivery is that he makes it look effortless, which is encouraging. When I hear that I think RJ-like, just winging it in and using the big frame to make it like 100 is a piece of cake.

OnBaseMachine
08-28-2010, 02:34 AM
From the Louisville-Courier Journal:


“That’s the first time we’ve seen 105 on the gun,” Bats manager Rick Sweet said. “We’ve had scouts tell us they’ve gotten 105, but that’s the first time we’ve seen it.”


http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20100827/SPORTS/308270111/1036/SPORTS07/Castillo+hits+the+clutch+for+Bats

Topcat
08-28-2010, 04:55 AM
Has to be said...................... God has the scouting staff and front office done over the past 5 years?

Red's and prospects to build with kick (_!_):beerme:

Ron Madden
08-28-2010, 05:04 AM
Thanks OBM, I always enjoy reading articles from John Erardi. :thumbup:

fearofpopvol1
08-28-2010, 07:56 AM
Me neither. And frankly, it has me a little worried. I love the results, but how long can he do it for?

This is my initial thought too, especially with Strasburg's recent injury. However, every report and thing I've read has said that his delivery is effortless and that he has exceptional mechanics. So he has that working for him.

Seriously...105 on the gun. And this guy is left handed! It's really unthinkable.

_Sir_Charles_
08-28-2010, 01:17 PM
I know he's been throwing VERY well with the Bats...but I'm starting to worry about the state of Redszone if he doesn't come up here and pitch perfectly. I think we may need to temper that enthusiasm just a bit. This is a rookie we're talking about here, about to get his first cup of coffee. If he does "average", I'll be happy. But the expectations that I've been seeing here are ridiculously high and just as ridiculously unfair to Aroldis.

mth123
08-28-2010, 01:23 PM
I know he's been throwing VERY well with the Bats...but I'm starting to worry about the state of Redszone if he doesn't come up here and pitch perfectly. I think we may need to temper that enthusiasm just a bit. This is a rookie we're talking about here, about to get his first cup of coffee. If he does "average", I'll be happy. But the expectations that I've been seeing here are ridiculously high and just as ridiculously unfair to Aroldis.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Fact is, there are some guys who aren't world beaters that he would be replacing so he doesn't have to have the storybook success to be an upgrade over guys like Lecure, Bray and Leake.

OnBaseMachine
08-28-2010, 04:05 PM
From Jamie Ramsey:

I just saw the organization report from last night's minor league games. I can confirm that Chapman actually did throw 105.

http://twitter.com/Jamieblog

Degenerate39
08-28-2010, 05:27 PM
Article about Chapman hitting 105 on the gun. Guy's going to be scary in a few days

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Report-Scout-clocks-Reds-pitching-prospect-Cha?urn=mlb-265783

The Voice of IH
08-28-2010, 05:28 PM
The Question is, can Redzone hold their horses for 4 days lol. or will the entire site explode?

Brutus
08-28-2010, 05:41 PM
Prediction: If the Reds lose even one game between now and Wednesday that could have been averted by the bullpen, someone will complain it was because Chapman wasn't called up 5 days sooner.

redsmetz
08-28-2010, 05:55 PM
Prediction: If the Reds lose even one game between now and Wednesday that could have been averted by the bullpen, someone will complain it was because Chapman wasn't called up 5 days sooner.

Yeah, the board is bit like the expression my late Grandma had, "you'd kick if your legs were cut off." Of course, macabre humor my family has, when my aunt had her's amputated, a number of us said, "I guess we'll find out now!" (Lest anyone think that in bad taste, PM me & I'll tell you the gag she pulled on her grandson after the surgery)

_Sir_Charles_
08-28-2010, 06:02 PM
fan photo of the louisville scoreboard gun reading.

http://ramsey.mlblogs.com/assets_c/2010/08/46004_421072438084_567003084_5034070_1042469_n-thumb-340x68-2376591.jpg

REDblooded
08-28-2010, 06:05 PM
Yeah, the board is bit like the expression my late Grandma had, "you'd kick if your legs were cut off." Of course, macabre humor my family has, when my aunt had her's amputated, a number of us said, "I guess we'll find out now!" (Lest anyone think that in bad taste, PM me & I'll tell you the gag she pulled on her grandson after the surgery)


HAHAHA... I love it when people have a sense of humor about life.

mth123
08-28-2010, 06:17 PM
Prediction: If the Reds lose even one game between now and Wednesday that could have been averted by the bullpen, someone will complain it was because Chapman wasn't called up 5 days sooner.

Maybe, but a lefty who can throw over 100 MPH is a special talent that gives the team an advantage. Right now the pen is short one arm and has two in Lecure and Bray who are interchangeable parts that no one will miss much for those few days. Can't see any reason to wait. All the reasons I've seen so far are based on mis-information.

Anybody have a reason other than just because?

Brutus
08-28-2010, 06:20 PM
Maybe, but a lefty who can throw over 100 MPH is a special talent that gives the team an advantage. Right now the pen is short one arm and has two in Lecure and Bray who are interchangeable parts that no one will miss much for those few days. Can't see any reason to wait. All the reasons I've seen so far are based on mis-information.

Anybody have a reason other than just because?

What misinformation? Speculation is not misinformation.

Here's your reason: because the Reds are privvy to rules and procedures, as well as finances, that we're not. And they seem to think the plan is best he's brought up on September 1. Without knowing their reasons... that's reason enough for me.

If we knew why they were doing it, we'd be reasonable to debate the logic. But since, as you said, no one knows the reason other than "just because," how can you criticize their decision?

kaldaniels
08-28-2010, 06:26 PM
What misinformation? Speculation is not misinformation.

Here's your reason: because the Reds are privvy to rules and procedures, as well as finances, that we're not. And they seem to think the plan is best he's brought up on September 1. Without knowing their reasons... that's reason enough for me.

If we knew why they were doing it, we'd be reasonable to debate the logic. But since, as you said, no one knows the reason other than "just because," how can you criticize their decision?

You could literally say that about every front office move (I've said it myself)...I'd like just one example other than "The plan was Sept 1 and we ain't movin it" of how calling him up now would negatively affect the team. We can all agree I believe that he is gonna be on the postseason roster.

Brutus
08-28-2010, 06:35 PM
You could literally say that about every front office move (I've said it myself)...I'd like just one example other than "The plan was Sept 1 and we ain't movin it" of how calling him up now would negatively affect the team. We can all agree I believe that he is gonna be on the postseason roster.

I don't think it's a competitive issue for them. I think there are financial and labor ramifications of why they're not bringing him up. I know they could save themselves thousands in the in-season supplemental moving expenses if he doesn't get service before September 1. Granted, people would probably not react favorably if they knew Chapman wasn't called up before then because of saving some money... but that's likely at least a reason.

edabbs44
08-28-2010, 07:36 PM
Me neither. And frankly, it has me a little worried. I love the results, but how long can he do it for?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. It's awesome but scary at the same time.

OnBaseMachine
08-29-2010, 12:49 AM
Prediction: If the Reds lose even one game between now and Wednesday that could have been averted by the bullpen, someone will complain it was because Chapman wasn't called up 5 days sooner.

And we would have every reason to. Chapman could be helping the Reds right now. Every game matters at this point. If Chapman is ready, and makes the Reds better then I see no reason to keep him in Louisville for four more days. I thought one of the reasons they waited to call him up was because they wanted him to debut at home. That must not be true then because if he gets called up on September 1st, that's the last game of this current homestand before the Reds head into a crucial series in St. Louis. You think think it would make sense to bring him up and let him get his feet wet against the Cubs/Brewers.

I(heart)Freel
08-29-2010, 10:01 AM
Not to belabor the point, but doesnt Chapman have to be on the 25-man roster on Tuesday to be playoff eligible?

Given the choice, you simply have to want to Chapman playoff-eligible over LeCure... right?

Jpup
08-29-2010, 11:15 AM
Not to belabor the point, but doesnt Chapman have to be on the 25-man roster on Tuesday to be playoff eligible?

Given the choice, you simply have to want to Chapman playoff-eligible over LeCure... right?

No he doesn't. He can replace anyone that is on the 60 day DL.

redsfandan
08-29-2010, 01:55 PM
Me neither. And frankly, it has me a little worried. I love the results, but how long can he do it for?
Hopefully he realizes that he doesn't have to throw THAT hard too often.

WebScorpion
08-29-2010, 05:58 PM
No he doesn't. He can replace any pitcher that is on the 60 day DL.

Fixed that for ya. ;)

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2010, 01:30 PM
Article on Chapman from the Reds website.


Eventually, Chapman will return to starting, but for now his work in the bullpen has allowed him to concentrate on his fastball and slider. His repertoire also features a changeup, but the pitch is primarily used when he starts a game, appears in long relief or faces a predominantly right-handed-hitting lineup.


http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100831&content_id=14128972&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

edabbs44
08-31-2010, 02:13 PM
And we would have every reason to. Chapman could be helping the Reds right now. Every game matters at this point. If Chapman is ready, and makes the Reds better then I see no reason to keep him in Louisville for four more days. I thought one of the reasons they waited to call him up was because they wanted him to debut at home. That must not be true then because if he gets called up on September 1st, that's the last game of this current homestand before the Reds head into a crucial series in St. Louis. You think think it would make sense to bring him up and let him get his feet wet against the Cubs/Brewers.

I think it was played correctly. Cincy waited as long as they were able, got him to the point where he is just wrecking AAA hitters, got him as much relief experience as possible and still brought him up before the deadline while having a 6 game lead.

All this board would need is a reason to second guess the "rushing" of Chapman.

TRF
08-31-2010, 03:05 PM
I think it was played correctly. Cincy waited as long as they were able, got him to the point where he is just wrecking AAA hitters, got him as much relief experience as possible and still brought him up before the deadline while having a 6 game lead.

All this board would need is a reason to second guess the "rushing" of Chapman.

on the contrary. I don't think anyone has second guessed Walt and the rest involved in this decision one iota.

2010 may go down as a cautionary tale. Strasburg, Chapman, Leake. 3 rookies, each handled very differently.

Washington may have set themselves back 2 years in how they handled Strasburg. 2011 could have seen them with both SS and Zimmermann as 1-2 in their rotation. To me it didn't matter that Strasburg was mowing down minor league hitters. He still needed to acclimate himself to a 5 man rotation. He then had to live up to the hype of being Strasburg.

Mike Leake was the beneficiary of a confluence of events. There was no real "book" on him. For a guy that was very hittable, he didn't allow a lot of runners to score. In his 1st 11 starts, the only tough teams he faced were the Cardinals, Braves and maybe at the time, the Dodgers. He faced the Cubs, Pirates and Astros 2 times each.

Putting Leake on the DL was absolutely the right thing to do. The league figured him out, and running him out there only risked injury. 2011 will be very interesting for the Reds rotation.

Chapman was the most babied of the 3, and the one that needed it the most. We've all read the stories of how he has tried to acclimate himself to life in the U.S., professional ball, starting every 5 days and now relieving. He's going to be surrounded by Cordero, Volquez and Cueto. His AAA roommate is with the team. He's a cog in a machine, not the linchpin. He can be himself, and do his job without the pressure of the season riding on his shoulders. In essence, the only stress he needs to feel is normal, in-game stress, whereas Strasburg had the franchise and the future all tied to the present, and Leake was in relatively unknown waters for him and the organization.

Today is the right day for Aroldis Chapman.

backbencher
08-31-2010, 03:11 PM
Today is the right day for Aroldis Chapman.

Agreed.

Plus, he gets to come up in Cincinnati, not on the road.

Brutus
08-31-2010, 03:17 PM
Washington may have set themselves back 2 years in how they handled Strasburg. 2011 could have seen them with both SS and Zimmermann as 1-2 in their rotation. To me it didn't matter that Strasburg was mowing down minor league hitters. He still needed to acclimate himself to a 5 man rotation. He then had to live up to the hype of being Strasburg.



I agree with all your other points strongly, but this... this I don't get. They babied that kid as much as one could expect. They put him on the DL once before and kept him there a while despite being healthy. His accident was one that was pure dumb, unfortunate luck. They didn't do anything to set themselves back... mother nature did that.

You can't just not pitch someone for fear of injury. If you do that, he'll never be ready for a full year and he won't get better. So Washington did everything they could or should have done with him. I agree with how Cincinnati handled Chapman, fully, but Strasburg is not an example of mishandling. He's just an example of how injuries can happy anytime, anywhere.

_Sir_Charles_
08-31-2010, 03:28 PM
I agree with all your other points strongly, but this... this I don't get. They babied that kid as much as one could expect. They put him on the DL once before and kept him there a while despite being healthy. His accident was one that was pure dumb, unfortunate luck. They didn't do anything to set themselves back... mother nature did that.

You can't just not pitch someone for fear of injury. If you do that, he'll never be ready for a full year and he won't get better. So Washington did everything they could or should have done with him. I agree with how Cincinnati handled Chapman, fully, but Strasburg is not an example of mishandling. He's just an example of how injuries can happy anytime, anywhere.

I agree with you that they handled Strasberg properly....but it wasn't pure dumb luck either. That kid's got poor mechanics and it was only a matter of time before it happened. With his velocity...it was gonna be sooner rather than later IMO.

TRF
08-31-2010, 03:35 PM
I agree with all your other points strongly, but this... this I don't get. They babied that kid as much as one could expect. They put him on the DL once before and kept him there a while despite being healthy. His accident was one that was pure dumb, unfortunate luck. They didn't do anything to set themselves back... mother nature did that.

You can't just not pitch someone for fear of injury. If you do that, he'll never be ready for a full year and he won't get better. So Washington did everything they could or should have done with him. I agree with how Cincinnati handled Chapman, fully, but Strasburg is not an example of mishandling. He's just an example of how injuries can happy anytime, anywhere.

IMO he was overhyped and rushed to the majors. His talent, while immense cannot overcome human nature. The minors aren't there just for show. He needed to learn more about being a professional ballplayer and less about being a phenom.

Once he was promoted, the Nats did do most of the right things. They limited his pitches and innings, babied him when possible. BUT the Nats weren't going to win this year with him, so why risk it? And yeah, I'd have probably started Leake in the minors and put Wood in the rotation to start this year too. Coddle thy pitchers.

Too much. Too fast. and an apex no one could climb much less live up too. How many times did we read Hall of Fame and his name?

And now, we have Chapman, and while the pressure of a pennant race might be great, it's probably less than Saviour of the Franchise

Mechanically, the Nationals may have done most things right. Mentally? Emotionally? I have my doubts and my opinion. Take that for what it's worth.

edabbs44
08-31-2010, 03:36 PM
on the contrary. I don't think anyone has second guessed Walt and the rest involved in this decision one iota.

2010 may go down as a cautionary tale. Strasburg, Chapman, Leake. 3 rookies, each handled very differently.

Washington may have set themselves back 2 years in how they handled Strasburg. 2011 could have seen them with both SS and Zimmermann as 1-2 in their rotation. To me it didn't matter that Strasburg was mowing down minor league hitters. He still needed to acclimate himself to a 5 man rotation. He then had to live up to the hype of being Strasburg.

Mike Leake was the beneficiary of a confluence of events. There was no real "book" on him. For a guy that was very hittable, he didn't allow a lot of runners to score. In his 1st 11 starts, the only tough teams he faced were the Cardinals, Braves and maybe at the time, the Dodgers. He faced the Cubs,
Pirates and Astros 2 times each.

Putting Leake on the DL was absolutely the right thing to do. The league figured him out, and running him out there only risked injury. 2011 will be
very interesting for the Reds rotation.

Chapman was the most babied of the 3, and the one that needed it the most. We've all read the stories of how he has tried to acclimate himself to life in the U.S., professional ball, starting every 5 days and now relieving. He's going to be surrounded by Cordero, Volquez and Cueto. His AAA roommate is with the team. He's a cog in a machine, not the linchpin. He can be himself, and do his
job without the pressure of the season riding on his shoulders. In essence, the only stress he needs to feel is normal, in-game stress, whereas Strasburg had the franchise and the future all tied to the present, and Leake was in relatively unknown waters for him and the organization.

Today is the right day for Aroldis Chapman.

I agree 100%. But I read the posted to which I was responding as kind of a questioning of how this was being played.

OnBaseMachine
08-31-2010, 03:40 PM
Today is the right day for Aroldis Chapman.

FWIW, I would have brought Chapman up at the beginning of this homestand in order to give him a chance to get a couple appearances at home before the Reds head into St. Louis and Colorado. I'm just glad they decided to bring him up today instead of tomorrow as originally planned. At least now he should get a chance to appear in a game at home before the roadtrip.

Brutus
08-31-2010, 03:42 PM
IMO he was overhyped and rushed to the majors. His talent, while immense cannot overcome human nature. The minors aren't there just for show. He needed to learn more about being a professional ballplayer and less about being a phenom.

Once he was promoted, the Nats did do most of the right things. They limited his pitches and innings, babied him when possible. BUT the Nats weren't going to win this year with him, so why risk it? And yeah, I'd have probably started Leake in the minors and put Wood in the rotation to start this year too. Coddle thy pitchers.

Too much. Too fast. and an apex no one could climb much less live up too. How many times did we read Hall of Fame and his name?

And now, we have Chapman, and while the pressure of a pennant race might be great, it's probably less than Saviour of the Franchise

Mechanically, the Nationals may have done most things right. Mentally? Emotionally? I have my doubts and my opinion. Take that for what it's worth.

Unless you know something I don't about physics, Strasburg wouldn't have been at any less of a risk of hurting himself down there as he would in the Majors. His Major League numbers suggest they didn't "rush" him considering he had a 2.91 ERA, 92 strikeouts in 68 innings and just 17 walks and 5 home runs. It's only rushing someone if they're truly not ready. Nothing about that performance suggests he wasn't ready.

He had the same risk of injuring himself pitching in the minors as with the majors. If anything, he gains a lot more by learning on the job against better competition than against competition he was absolutely dominating. He was gaining nothing else by crushing minor league competition. He wasn't getting, as you say "acclimated" to the Majors down there and he wasn't going to be tested.

By the logic of "they weren't going to win, so why risk it," then why does any good pitcher go out and pitch for sub-.500 teams? That logic makes no sense. If we shut down every good player just because their team isn't winning, those teams may as well not even field a club.

Washington didn't do anything to set themselves back. An injury did that--one that was out of their control.

Brutus
08-31-2010, 03:45 PM
I agree with you that they handled Strasberg properly....but it wasn't pure dumb luck either. That kid's got poor mechanics and it was only a matter of time before it happened. With his velocity...it was gonna be sooner rather than later IMO.

Don't disagree, but if you want to be technical, 90% of Major League pitchers have poor mechanics in that even if they pitch technically sound, you're still very much exposed to injury risk. There are most certainly some mechanics that further stress the arm, elbow, shoulder, etc., but at the same time, it's still Russian Roulette with regards to injuries when guys pitch.

I suppose you can tweak Strasburg's mechanics, and they probably will do so. You never know how a pitcher will respond to that, though. It's the reason teams are often hesitant to correct those mechanics to begin with.

TRF
08-31-2010, 03:52 PM
Unless you know something I don't about physics, Strasburg wouldn't have been at any less of a risk of hurting himself down there as he would in the Majors. His Major League numbers suggest they didn't "rush" him considering he had a 2.91 ERA, 92 strikeouts in 68 innings and just 17 walks and 5 home runs. It's only rushing someone if they're truly not ready. Nothing about that performance suggests he wasn't ready.

He had the same risk of injuring himself pitching in the minors as with the majors. If anything, he gains a lot more by learning on the job against better competition than against competition he was absolutely dominating. He was gaining nothing else by crushing minor league competition. He wasn't getting, as you say "acclimated" to the Majors down there and he wasn't going to be tested.

By the logic of "they weren't going to win, so why risk it," then why does any good pitcher go out and pitch for sub-.500 teams? That logic makes no sense. If we shut down every good player just because their team isn't winning, those teams may as well not even field a club.

Washington didn't do anything to set themselves back. An injury did that--one that was out of their control.

Rick Ankiel says hi. Not from an injury standpoint, but as someone thrust into a position he wasn't ready for. There is no hard fast set timetable, and everyone is different, but for a guy that had no injury history that I can think of, Strasburg, well, got injured twice. Freak accident? probably. Or maybe he was trying to do too much.

Again, this is just my opinion. But perhaps Strasburg's talent didn't quite equal his desire. Maybe he tried to throw harder than he should have for longer than he should have. I don't know. I do know, I wouldn't risk it. I'd have had him in the minors all year with a David Price-like introduction to MLB in September.

As for why pitchers pitch for sub .500 teams? well, there is a difference in a FA and a guy you completely control.

It's my opinion. It may not make sense to you, but I think this game is more than physical talent. Your whole argument is based on numbers. Mine is based on a more human element.

Brutus
08-31-2010, 04:05 PM
Rick Ankiel says hi. Not from an injury standpoint, but as someone thrust into a position he wasn't ready for. There is no hard fast set timetable, and everyone is different, but for a guy that had no injury history that I can think of, Strasburg, well, got injured twice. Freak accident? probably. Or maybe he was trying to do too much.

Again, this is just my opinion. But perhaps Strasburg's talent didn't quite equal his desire. Maybe he tried to throw harder than he should have for longer than he should have. I don't know. I do know, I wouldn't risk it. I'd have had him in the minors all year with a David Price-like introduction to MLB in September.

As for why pitchers pitch for sub .500 teams? well, there is a difference in a FA and a guy you completely control.

It's my opinion. It may not make sense to you, but I think this game is more than physical talent. Your whole argument is based on numbers. Mine is based on a more human element.

But you're attempting to quantify something within the human element that sometimes has absolutely no explanation. There's often no rhyme or reason to why the brain and our minds work the way they do.

Rick Ankiel suffered from the same type of problem Mark Wohlers did... remember him? Wohlers was 'ready' considering he was an established Major Leaguer. Psychological issues happen to anyone and everyone. Just because they happen doesn't mean you weren't prepared for the majors emotionally. Ankiel's problems had absolutely nada to do with being ready. He started struggling with control in the playoffs and he got psyched out. I don't see how anyone could say that pitching any more than the 300 minor league innings he had prior to his big league arrival could have prevented his collapse in the postseason 2 years later.

This is exactly the type of overreaction the baseball culture has created from fans. The pitch count police is looking for any and every reason to hang teams in effigy for 'abusing', 'misusing' or 'mishandling' their pitchers. Strasburg was an accident. It was one that probably can't be avoided. The Nationals advanced him with trepidation. They kept him on strict workloads. And judging by his performance, they had him on a level that challenged him physically without throwing too much at once.

To blame this in any way, shape or form on the Nationals is simply looking for something that isn't there.

nate
08-31-2010, 04:12 PM
Another (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/myth-and-legend-meet-cincinnati/) Chapman article from Fangraphs.

Tease:


For the Reds to be able to develop Chapman at their own pace, and create such a gap between themselves and the Cardinals is exactly how Walt Jocketty would have written it.

TRF
08-31-2010, 06:59 PM
But you're attempting to quantify something within the human element that sometimes has absolutely no explanation. There's often no rhyme or reason to why the brain and our minds work the way they do.

Rick Ankiel suffered from the same type of problem Mark Wohlers did... remember him? Wohlers was 'ready' considering he was an established Major Leaguer. Psychological issues happen to anyone and everyone. Just because they happen doesn't mean you weren't prepared for the majors emotionally. Ankiel's problems had absolutely nada to do with being ready. He started struggling with control in the playoffs and he got psyched out. I don't see how anyone could say that pitching any more than the 300 minor league innings he had prior to his big league arrival could have prevented his collapse in the postseason 2 years later.

Oh, I remember Wohlers. I also remember how he blew out his elbow because he inexplicably "lost" it. I remember how he was overthrowing to compensate. You are exactly right that this can happen at any times. So why does it seem to MOSTLY happen with younger players?


This is exactly the type of overreaction the baseball culture has created from fans. The pitch count police is looking for any and every reason to hang teams in effigy for 'abusing', 'misusing' or 'mishandling' their pitchers. Strasburg was an accident. It was one that probably can't be avoided. The Nationals advanced him with trepidation. They kept him on strict workloads. And judging by his performance, they had him on a level that challenged him physically without throwing too much at once.

To blame this in any way, shape or form on the Nationals is simply looking for something that isn't there.

And ESPN, 24 hour coverage, escalating bonuses are exactly what has created Strasburg. It's what caused JimBo to promote Ryan Wagner the year he was drafted. It's likely a leading cause of flameouts. Fans clamoring for the #1 pick, the 10 million dollar arm before they are developed properly.

I'm not disagreeing with you. At the same time, I'm not sure I'm completely right either. I think the truth is there is a reason for the minor leagues. Strasburg's numbers in less than half a season of professional ball should not have forced his way onto a 25 man roster. Yes, he could have blown out his arm at AA, But then again, maybe not.

I will say this, It's a very compelling reason to include a strict slot for the draft, and prohibit major league contracts for drafted players.

Brutus
08-31-2010, 07:08 PM
Oh, I remember Wohlers. I also remember how he blew out his elbow because he inexplicably "lost" it. I remember how he was overthrowing to compensate. You are exactly right that this can happen at any times. So why does it seem to MOSTLY happen with younger players?


And ESPN, 24 hour coverage, escalating bonuses are exactly what has created Strasburg. It's what caused JimBo to promote Ryan Wagner the year he was drafted. It's likely a leading cause of flameouts. Fans clamoring for the #1 pick, the 10 million dollar arm before they are developed properly.

I'm not disagreeing with you. At the same time, I'm not sure I'm completely right either. I think the truth is there is a reason for the minor leagues. Strasburg's numbers in less than half a season of professional ball should not have forced his way onto a 25 man roster. Yes, he could have blown out his arm at AA, But then again, maybe not.

I will say this, It's a very compelling reason to include a strict slot for the draft, and prohibit major league contracts for drafted players.

Well, I would argue that those players that don't cut it, the young ones you mention, don't make it because they didn't have the makeup to be successful to begin with. That they flame out is something that may have happened even with several years of minor league experience. I think either you have it or you don't. I don't think the psychological aspect of the game (which I agree wholeheartedly is valid) is something you can control. If a player can't handle the pressure, no number of minor league innings will change that.

I am completely in support of a strict slotting system (and worldwide draft). I would also love the prohibition of instant Major League contracts.

TRF
09-01-2010, 10:30 AM
I think either you have it or you don't. I don't think the psychological aspect of the game (which I agree wholeheartedly is valid) is something you can control. If a player can't handle the pressure, no number of minor league innings will change that.

Completely disagree. Just like some players take longer to develop their talent, some take longer with their own confidence. That's just life in general. Some may never be superstars. Some just aren't developed enough physically. But it seems that the rate of young players having surgery seems high. So why risk it?

I'm a firm believer in the minor leagues. I think it is their to develop the player's skill and to mature him. It is the single most important support system in sports today. Rushing a guy through it does not benefit the player. I was happy that Chapman stayed in the minors as long as he did and advocated that he should have started in AA like Strasburg. I think Leake should have as well.

Brutus
09-01-2010, 03:28 PM
Completely disagree. Just like some players take longer to develop their talent, some take longer with their own confidence. That's just life in general. Some may never be superstars. Some just aren't developed enough physically. But it seems that the rate of young players having surgery seems high. So why risk it?

I'm a firm believer in the minor leagues. I think it is their to develop the player's skill and to mature him. It is the single most important support system in sports today. Rushing a guy through it does not benefit the player. I was happy that Chapman stayed in the minors as long as he did and advocated that he should have started in AA like Strasburg. I think Leake should have as well.

Mental makeup of a person doesn't change. That's not something you can 'develop.' In terms of personality, you are what you are right along with your characteristics.

No amount of 'seasoning' is going to prepare a player for pressure. Experience helps, but in the end, either they'll be able to handle it or they won't. Don't confuse maturity with poise.

TRF
09-01-2010, 06:08 PM
Mental makeup of a person doesn't change. That's not something you can 'develop.' In terms of personality, you are what you are right along with your characteristics.

No amount of 'seasoning' is going to prepare a player for pressure. Experience helps, but in the end, either they'll be able to handle it or they won't. Don't confuse maturity with poise.

sorry, but that's crap. Poise can be learned. there are mechanisms for dealing with pressure. Some people exceed their physical limitations with force of will. Sometimes that will is learned. I don't believe for a minute that a person is who they are at one point and can never rise or sink below that. You pointed out Wohlers. He suddenly "lost it".

Life experiences can change your mental makeup. it can galvanize you or break you.

I never pegged you for a black or white position, when the answer to this is obviously somewhere in between.

Brutus
09-01-2010, 06:25 PM
sorry, but that's crap. Poise can be learned. there are mechanisms for dealing with pressure. Some people exceed their physical limitations with force of will. Sometimes that will is learned. I don't believe for a minute that a person is who they are at one point and can never rise or sink below that. You pointed out Wohlers. He suddenly "lost it".

Life experiences can change your mental makeup. it can galvanize you or break you.

I never pegged you for a black or white position, when the answer to this is obviously somewhere in between.

The human element, as you said earlier in the thread, is important. But yeah, I'm sorry, a leopard doesn't change his spots. We are all leaders or followers. After we reach the brink of adulthood, I don't believe in that changing. We can gain more knowledge, we can gain more experience and we can certainly do things differently based on the knoweldge and experience we've gained along the way but I don't believe we can change our core personalities in how we react in situations.

Some people aren't cut out for pressure. That's just a simple fact of life. Some people can't and don't handle scrutiny, expectations or perform well under such pressure. I don't see how that's such a leap for you to acknowledge. That's not really outrageous to say.

TRF
09-01-2010, 06:56 PM
The human element, as you said earlier in the thread, is important. But yeah, I'm sorry, a leopard doesn't change his spots. We are all leaders or followers. After we reach the brink of adulthood, I don't believe in that changing. We can gain more knowledge, we can gain more experience and we can certainly do things differently based on the knoweldge and experience we've gained along the way but I don't believe we can change our core personalities in how we react in situations.

Some people aren't cut out for pressure. That's just a simple fact of life. Some people can't and don't handle scrutiny, expectations or perform well under such pressure. I don't see how that's such a leap for you to acknowledge. That's not really outrageous to say.

In some cases I believe that. I just don't believe a person is a finished product at 22. I'm certainly not the same person i was at that age.

At age 18, I was a radio/tv major in college. All my life to that point I loathed public speaking. I never led anyone. I tried my best to avoid attention or scrutiny. Becoming a DJ, and later a television director showed me that I can be more than I thought I was. I turned myself into a point of authority, and I take pride in the fact that in a group setting, I tend to lead a conversation. Sometimes overtly, sometimes covertly.

Some guys are that way naturally. It's there from birth, I 100% agree with you on that. but again, poise doesn't equal maturity. Maturity is a combination of poise, wisdom and experience. Strasburg had no frame of reference for the big league life, and very little for life as a professional ballplayer. IMO that lack of experience hurts him. He'll be 24 with less than 150 IP as a professional. His control likely won't be back until 2013.

There is no guarantee that he wouldn't have gotten hurt in the minors. I do think the risk was lower. Again, that's my opinion.

Brutus
09-01-2010, 07:29 PM
In some cases I believe that. I just don't believe a person is a finished product at 22. I'm certainly not the same person i was at that age.

At age 18, I was a radio/tv major in college. All my life to that point I loathed public speaking. I never led anyone. I tried my best to avoid attention or scrutiny. Becoming a DJ, and later a television director showed me that I can be more than I thought I was. I turned myself into a point of authority, and I take pride in the fact that in a group setting, I tend to lead a conversation. Sometimes overtly, sometimes covertly.

Some guys are that way naturally. It's there from birth, I 100% agree with you on that. but again, poise doesn't equal maturity. Maturity is a combination of poise, wisdom and experience. Strasburg had no frame of reference for the big league life, and very little for life as a professional ballplayer. IMO that lack of experience hurts him. He'll be 24 with less than 150 IP as a professional. His control likely won't be back until 2013.

There is no guarantee that he wouldn't have gotten hurt in the minors. I do think the risk was lower. Again, that's my opinion.

I agree with the bolded part. Completely. Problem is, I don't believe we reach peak maturity maturity until 28-30 (which of course aligns with baseball's peak production age, typically) and, because of that, if we truly want someone to be 'ready' then perhaps they shouldn't be in the majors until 27. But at the same time, it's wise to get them a lot of experience in the majors before that, or else they won't be adjusted to the new level.

If someone like Strasburg can physically contribute (and clearly he can), you put him there. No sense in letting him develop the psychological characteristics that, if they ever come, may not happen for another 6-8 years.

Still, the injury was a physical injury, not emotional. You're still conflating two separate things. It happened because of an issue in physics, not an issue in mindset. Throwing a baseball with great force against your elbow is not affected by the pressure of the mind... it's a matter of pressure of the body.

But going back to the first point... maturity and poise are two different things. I agree with the fact we mature and become different people, but the core of our being is typically developed in our upbringing.

TRF
09-01-2010, 08:32 PM
Still, the injury was a physical injury, not emotional. You're still conflating two separate things. It happened because of an issue in physics, not an issue in mindset. Throwing a baseball with great force against your elbow is not affected by the pressure of the mind... it's a matter of pressure of the body.

heh. ever ride your bike real fast, and think you can make a turn? That was adrenaline. And that IS emotion.

Thinking you can throw 100 when your body would rather throw 98 is the same thing. You can ABSOLUTELY injure yourself because of emotion, because of a belief.

Brutus
09-01-2010, 08:37 PM
heh. ever ride your bike real fast, and think you can make a turn? That was adrenaline. And that IS emotion.

Thinking you can throw 100 when your body would rather throw 98 is the same thing. You can ABSOLUTELY injure yourself because of emotion, because of a belief.

You really think he's not trying to throw his hardest/best in the minors? Come on now.

TRF
09-01-2010, 08:40 PM
I think 40,000+ fans wearing Strasburg jerseys and being proclaimed the savior of the franchise might make him throw a touch harder, yes.

And I know you have read where a pitcher has said he was amped up and overthrowing.

Brutus
09-01-2010, 09:01 PM
I think 40,000+ fans wearing Strasburg jerseys and being proclaimed the savior of the franchise might make him throw a touch harder, yes.

And I know you have read where a pitcher has said he was amped up and overthrowing.

He was in the 4th inning of his 12th start. I think he was beyond the 'being amped up' part of his major league experience.

kaldaniels
09-01-2010, 09:03 PM
Forget Reds vs Brew Crew...

The Brutus/TRF cage match is where it's at tonight. :D

paintmered
09-01-2010, 09:39 PM
I've decided I'm going to charge admission to watch you two duke this out. Proceeds go to the Boys and Girls Club of Akron. Where's Jim Gray when we need him?

Brutus
09-01-2010, 09:42 PM
I've decided I'm going to charge admission to watch you two duke this out. Proceeds go to the Boys and Girls Club of Akron. Where's Jim Gray when we need him?

Typical promoters. Always needing their cut ;)

VR
09-01-2010, 09:46 PM
Talk radio was pimping Chapman as the most exciting player in the big leagues....the guy everyone will change the channel to see.

I know it's quite premature...but still, pretty cool the Reds have him.

camisadelgolf
09-01-2010, 10:08 PM
HAHAHA... I love it when people have a sense of humor about life.
I reported redsmetz' post to the mods and recommended him for a permanent ban. People need to learn what's appropriate. I don't frequent this site with my family for them to be exposed to amputees being made fun of.

TRF
09-01-2010, 10:23 PM
He was in the 4th inning of his 12th start. I think he was beyond the 'being amped up' part of his major league experience.

yes, the awe of the big leagues fades rather quickly. especially for guys with 112ish professional innings.