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View Full Version : Um... is the rotation a concern?



RedEye
08-24-2010, 11:15 PM
Hate to be a downer amidst all of the good feeling on this board. I love this team. I want them to succeed. Desperately.

Still, I can't help but be worried about the starting rotation we all called "deep" a few weeks ago.

Wood is unproven (and getting knocked around tonight).
Leake is exhausted.
Volquez is still recovering--and moving to the 'pen.
Harang is injured and/or ineffective and/or in the minors.
Chapman isn't here yet or there yet.
Bailey is...

That leaves these dependable starters:

Bronson Arroyo

I'm starting to feel like the rotation will be running on fumes by the time the team (hopefully) gets to the plyaoffs.

Tell me I'm wrong. Please, tell me I'm wrong.

MattyHo4Life
08-24-2010, 11:20 PM
You are wrong bro! It's just a small bump in the road.

Cedric
08-24-2010, 11:27 PM
ERA or not the rotation is a major problem. The Reds are relying on some extremely volatile young pitchers.

Like you said the Reds have exactly one dependable starter. There is no doom and gloom in being honest about some concerns.

reds44
08-24-2010, 11:36 PM
It's Arroyo and Cueto at this point.

All the more reason to leave Volquez in the rotation and hope he figured it out.

KronoRed
08-24-2010, 11:38 PM
Depending on two rookies, a guy returning from arm surgery and Harang was always a recipe for trouble.

membengal
08-24-2010, 11:44 PM
For my part, decidedly unconcerned. Bad games and bad luck happen over 162 games. Giants came off a bad road trip and have gotten predictibly well at home over two games, and have been aided by some nice babip luck and some abnormally bad Reds defense.

Stuff happens.

HokieRed
08-25-2010, 12:05 AM
I think the rotation's becoming a problem very quickly. As I've said before, we're going to need Harang, LeCure, and possibly even Maloney to get through this thing. Leake and Wood are up close to year-long inning limits. Volquez never has had any command; it's pure wishful thinking to think he's going to develop it. The most hopeful thing going right now is Bailey. So we've got Bronson, Cueto, Homer, LeCure, and we need to hope for Harang. Or nurse Wood along a little farther, then bring Maloney. Personally I'd push Chapman back up to 3 innings at a time by Sept. 15, then use him for some 5 inning starts from Sept. 15 to the end.

Patrick Bateman
08-25-2010, 12:13 AM
Bailey might be our best pitcher right now.

The mere fact that might be true is a concern.

Brutus
08-25-2010, 12:18 AM
Check please!

johngalt
08-25-2010, 12:50 AM
The rotation as a whole? No.

Edinson Volquez? Yes.

fearofpopvol1
08-25-2010, 01:28 AM
Yes and no. Leake and Wood are probably going to start tiring. They're very young guys still and have never previously pitched in the bigs. Volquez is coming back from TJ surgery. Arroyo is dependable, I think Cueto is at the point where he is and Bailey is sort of the wild card. He should be poised to really be effective. Harang could be a difference maker.

If nothing else, the Reds have a ton of options...

RedLegSuperStar
08-25-2010, 05:19 AM
At the trade deadline nobody wanted to get a starting pitcher after Cliff Lee was dealt to the Rangers. Anyone want to turn back the clock?

hebroncougar
08-25-2010, 06:05 AM
We still in first place? And have won 5 of 8 on a West Coast swing so far? Good grief.............I'm not sure everyone on here is familiar with a 162 game season.

mth123
08-25-2010, 06:40 AM
Kids and rehabbers are just too unreliable.

Leake is toast (and has been for a while). Harang is now a bullpen guy and maybe Volquez is too. Chapman was converted long ago. Wood just got lit up. Bailey is still a question mark. Lecure and Maloney would be desperate moves.

Arroyo and Cueto and pray for a tornado?

Arroyo, Cueto, Wood and Bailey and ??????

Some one mentioned Hiroki Kuroda on waivers. I'd love to see the Reds grab him or some other vet. Its not August 31 yet. They may still do something.

Heath
08-25-2010, 07:30 AM
You are wrong bro! It's just a small bump in the road.

Spoken like a true Cardinals fan. ;) :p:


We still in first place? And have won 5 of 8 on a West Coast swing so far? Good grief.............I'm not sure everyone on here is familiar with a 162 game season.

July 24-31, 1990. It was ugly.

BCubb2003
08-25-2010, 07:49 AM
It's concerning that Leake and Wood dropped off so drastically and Harang has not found his way back. But the depth is pretty impressive compared with other years. The rotation is Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey and the same issues other teams have at #4 and #5. Effective use of LeCure, Volquez and off days might minimize the damage there.

Roy Tucker
08-25-2010, 07:55 AM
Things are never as good as they seem and things are never as bad as they seem. Things just .... are.

The Reds will be OK. They just need to open up the booze cart on the flight home.

MattyHo4Life
08-25-2010, 08:27 AM
I haven't been following Chapman, but I think I read on here that he is going to be used as a reliever. Is that true? Why won't he be used as a Starter?

nate
08-25-2010, 08:37 AM
It's concerning that Leake and Wood dropped off so drastically and Harang has not found his way back. But the depth is pretty impressive compared with other years. The rotation is Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey and the same issues other teams have at #4 and #5. Effective use of LeCure, Volquez and off days might minimize the damage there.

Harang at AAA:

K/9: 8.18
BB/9: 1.64
HR/9: 0.82

I don't see any hit type breakdowns for the minors but compared to his season numbers:

K/9: 6.73
BB/9: 2.51
HR/9: 1.35

It seems to me that he's figured something out. I don't think it's farfetched to suggest he could be a good 5th-man option at this point with Volquez going to the pen.

Griffey012
08-25-2010, 08:54 AM
Our starters as a whole were bound to hit a rough patch at some point. Most all of them have been great nearly every game this season (outside the 1st month). Am I worried right now? No. Will I be worried if this continues another time through the rotation? Yes.

So Wood had 1 bad start, we have to remember he is a rookie and not Cliff Lee, and he will get tossed around occasionally, if he continues to get tossed around we have a problem.

Leake is a mess right now, he was getting hit around as a starter for a while, and I just cannot see him being any help out of the pen, because a sinkerballer needs to be throwing with a tired arm, not fresh out of the bullpen.

Cueto and Arroyo are/will be fine.

Volquez scares the living doo doo out of me, something needs to be done with him.

Bailey needs to keep stepping up, and Harang does too if need be.

All in all, these are the horses we road here with, and these are the horses we are going to continue to ride with, they have gotten us this far, so I will continue to have faith in them all.

RedEye
08-25-2010, 09:54 AM
Post deleted.

RedEye
08-25-2010, 09:55 AM
Um... I can't believe I forgot Cueto. He should be up there under "dependable starters" with Arroyo. Still, my larger point stands, I think.

jesusfan
08-25-2010, 10:00 AM
I love how people start panicking and freaking out after losing 2 games straight and our pitchers getting roughed up a little bit.. Good grief, we had won 7 in a row and still up 2.5 in the divison with the cubbies coming to town after todays game, which I think will be a W.

We. Will. Be. Fine..

Sea Ray
08-25-2010, 10:21 AM
Yes, the rotation is concern. We have a lot of question marks and that won't change. But it may very well work out. We just have to play the games and sit back and see what happens.

Wood hasn't gotten beaten around much. Last night was an aberration. Bailey has looked good, as has Arroyo. Cueto has the stuff to bounce back. We also have Harang and LeCure as possibilities.

I wonder if they regret switching Chapman to relief?

redsmetz
08-25-2010, 10:24 AM
For my part, decidedly unconcerned. Bad games and bad luck happen over 162 games. Giants came off a bad road trip and have gotten predictibly well at home over two games, and have been aided by some nice babip luck and some abnormally bad Reds defense.

Stuff happens.

I think you're touching on one possibility for the last two games, not to mention the Reds are finishing up a nine game road trip, one in which we were 5-1 on.

RE the first poster, you put "Bailey is..." I think Bailey's back reasonably fresh and I'm not as down on him as some are around here. I think we've seen a much more mature young man the past two seasons. While neither he nor Cueto are the "money in the bank" that Arroyo is, they're not bad options. The rest will, hopefully, work themselves out. I'm liking the Bryan Price work with this staff.

Cedric
08-25-2010, 10:29 AM
I love how people start panicking and freaking out after losing 2 games straight and our pitchers getting roughed up a little bit.. Good grief, we had won 7 in a row and still up 2.5 in the divison with the cubbies coming to town after todays game, which I think will be a W.

We. Will. Be. Fine..

Nobody is freaking out and panicking. People have concerns and are discussing them on a message board.

I haven't seen one person claim the season is over or anything drastic.

Phhhl
08-25-2010, 10:34 AM
Last night was Woods' first truly bad start. Even with that, he wasn't all over the place like he was in some of his spring training games. He just caught too much of the plate and the Giants were hacking. The innings are racking up fast on him, but I still see him as very effective and serviceable in the rotation going forward. So, I look at it as Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey, Wood... and then, the question marks. No matter what Harang has done in AAA so far, I think he shakes out as the 4th or 5th starter in September, depending on how they want to handle Travis. Volquez profiles for the pen better because of his plus stuff, and the ability for relievers to survive the bouts of wildness he experiences, especially against some of the subpar lineups the Reds are about to face. He and Chapman can manage some setup duty in September, while Harang takes over a spot in the rotation as at least a league-average fifth starter.

How big would it be for Homer to step up today with another gem? An impressive win today, no matter what the Cards do, would put this conversation to rest.

cincrazy
08-25-2010, 10:40 AM
The rotation is certainly a concern. But our schedule eases up tremendously pretty soon, so any regression by our rotation may be neutralized by beating up on the NL Central down the homestretch.

bucksfan2
08-25-2010, 10:54 AM
The rotation is starting to concern me a little. Cueto is coming off of 2 bad and one missed starts. I really like Wood but he got rocked last night, I expect it is an outlier, but I think our expectations are a little too high on him right now. Homer has pitched great since coming off the DL, we can only hope that continues down the stretch. Volquez is a lost cause right now and I don't know if I would throw Harang back into the rotation.

FWIW here is what I would do.

Shelve Leake for the rest of the year. Very nice debut season but he has hit a wall and hasn't been effective. No since in adding more stress to his arm.

Volquez gets one more start. If he is inconsistent again I can't run him out there every 5th day. I don't know if he goes to the pen or his season is shut down as well.

Arroyo would start to pitch on 3 days rest. He likes to do it and I want the ball in the hands of my most reliable starter down the stretch. The Reds have 4 off days from now to the end of the season so I use those to keep him fresh.

If Arroyo doesn't pitch on 3 days rest and Volquez continues to pitch awfully, I insert Harang back into the rotation. Use him as a 5th starter and even skip a start of his during the off days.

Cueto, Wood, and Bailey would pitch on regular rest down the stretch.

RedEye
08-25-2010, 11:03 AM
I love how people start panicking and freaking out after losing 2 games straight and our pitchers getting roughed up a little bit.. Good grief, we had won 7 in a row and still up 2.5 in the divison with the cubbies coming to town after todays game, which I think will be a W.

We. Will. Be. Fine..

Don't get me wrong--I'm ecstatic about the team's success. I can see how you heard a panicked tone in my original post, but I think my larger point is more based on cool-headed assessment. Right now the Reds rotation is made up of one crafty innings eater (Arroyo), one "budding ace" with intermittent control problems (Cueto), another "budding ace" with even more control problems and injury concerns (Bailey), a promising-but-still-largely-unproven rookie (Wood) and a question mark (Harang? Volquez? Leake? LeCure?) Our main competitor for the division is a team with two potential Cy Young candidates and a very effective third starter. I still like our chances, but to me that's nerve wracking, panicked or not.

I also recognize that most of you are trying to help me see it another way. Thanks!

HeatherC1212
08-25-2010, 11:12 AM
Don't get me wrong--I'm ecstatic about the team's success. I can see how you heard a panicked tone in my original post, but I think my larger point is more based on cool-headed assessment. Right now the Reds rotation is made up of one crafty innings eater (Arroyo), one "budding ace" with intermittent control problems (Cueto), another "budding ace" with even more control problems and injury concerns (Bailey), a promising-but-still-largely-unproven rookie (Wood) and a question mark (Harang? Volquez? Leake? LeCure?) Our main competitor for the division is a team with two potential Cy Young candidates and a very effective third starter. I still like our chances, but to me that's nerve wracking, panicked or not.

I also recognize that most of you are trying to help me see it another way. Thanks!

Our rotation doesn't have to play against our main competition for the rest of the season though aside from one more three game set. We don't have to beat them over and over again....we just need to keep winning the series from our other competition and stay afloat during that last series with the Cardinals (who aren't going to win everytime either no matter how good their big four guys are). I'm not as worried as some of you seem to be although the last two nights were a bit of a bummer after how the road trip started off. We're still going to have a winning road trip on the WEST COAST though (a place past Reds teams have gone to die) and that's a pretty big deal. I'm choosing to focus on the big picture right now and with Bryan Price working with the pitchers (he's been rock solid for the most part at helping those guys this year) and Dusty keeping the guys on a pretty even keel (win or lose, they never get too high or too low), I think things will work out for the rest of the season. I'm not sounding any alarms yet and quite honestly, I think Bailey will throw a gem today and the Reds will win to end this road trip at 6-3. I hope I'm right. :cool:

Hoosier Red
08-25-2010, 11:48 AM
I haven't been following Chapman, but I think I read on here that he is going to be used as a reliever. Is that true? Why won't he be used as a Starter?

They switched him back in May thinking they needed another bullpen arm, and it would be the best way to get him to the big club.

He's taken to it very well so it's not a total loss and it's nice to know when he comes up on September 1, there will be some relievers who can throw 2-3 innings if necessary.

Slyder
08-25-2010, 11:54 AM
At the trade deadline nobody wanted to get a starting pitcher after Cliff Lee was dealt to the Rangers. Anyone want to turn back the clock?

I did and still do.

mdccclxix
08-25-2010, 11:56 AM
FWIW, I was there last night and the Giants fans were all saying the ball was carrying like they've never seen (since Bonds anyway). It was a really hot day as well, so that must have factored in. Mostly, night games really kill the fly ball there.

On Monday night I was there, too, and then the reasoning was that their road trip was so awful they were "due". And they couldn't reason with Dusty Baker? Shoot.

MattyHo4Life
08-25-2010, 11:57 AM
They switched him back in May thinking they needed another bullpen arm, and it would be the best way to get him to the big club.

He's taken to it very well so it's not a total loss and it's nice to know when he comes up on September 1, there will be some relievers who can throw 2-3 innings if necessary.

Do you know if they plan on having him be a starter next year? The pen isn't looked at as a permanent move is it?

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2010, 11:59 AM
Do you know if they plan on having him be a starter next year? The pen isn't looked at as a permanent move is it?

Chapman's future is as a starter. Jocketty has already said Chapman may pitch in the Arizona Fall League this offseason as he makes the transition back to starting.

Hoosier Red
08-25-2010, 11:59 AM
Do you know if they plan on having him be a starter next year? The pen isn't looked at as a permanent move is it?

No, it's not permanent. They said he'll go into next year as a starter. There's also some talk of having him pitch in Arizona as a starter to build up his innings. I don't know if that would be effected by him being called up.

MattyHo4Life
08-25-2010, 12:00 PM
Chapman's future is as a starter. Jocketty has already said Chapman may pitch in the Arizona Fall League this offseason as he makes the transition back to starting.

Well...that's good for him and the Reds. I think I'd rather see him stay in the pen though. ;)

VR
08-25-2010, 12:38 PM
3.22 for Hanigan

5.07 for Hernandez

I'm sorry, it just can't be overlooked anymore.

remdog
08-25-2010, 01:09 PM
You learn interesting things on Redszone. For instance, I just learned that the incubation period for Chicken Little (I'm sure many of you remember her) is two games.

The Reds staff is built for the long season. Over that course of 162 games there are going to be some bumps in the road; it's not going to be perfect. This is one of those 'bumps'.

Now, if your are talking a staff for the playoffs, I can see some tough decisions combined with a lot of 'crossing of the fingers'.

Rem

traderumor
08-25-2010, 01:09 PM
Flip side of "should we be concerned about the offense" ideas after the Philly series. Things returned to norms. I suspect they will here as well.

Folks that watch and talk a lot about baseball continually surprise me with reactions to streaks going either direction.

RedEye
08-25-2010, 01:39 PM
Flip side of "should we be concerned about the offense" ideas after the Philly series. Things returned to norms. I suspect they will here as well.

Folks that watch and talk a lot about baseball continually surprise me with reactions to streaks going either direction.

Yes, it is a streak. Chicken Little-dom notwithstanding though, I think there are significant reasons to be concerned about the rotation, both in the short term (regular season) and long term (playoffs).

Earlier in the season, the Reds had 3 and at times even 4 pretty darn effective SP (Arroyo, Cueto, Leake and Wood) with 3 injured/coming back (Volquez, Harang, Bailey). I think in recent weeks, however, that wealth of arms has begun to look more and more depleted, as Arroyo and Cueto seem to the be the only two dependable ones. Granted, Wood's performance last night could well be a measurable "bump in the road"--and if he continues to pitch effectively on the whole, the team is in far better shape. However, if Wood, like Leake, turns into a pumpkin down the stretch, then Bailey's role becomes that much more important. And I'm not sure what I think about that. I sure hope redsmetz is right that he has "matured" enough to carry the load.

It's true. This team has recently built enough of a lead that it seems that playoff odds are pretty good right now (70%-ish last I checked according to BP). Still, as another poster mentioned, with the way the SP looks now, the Reds' chances once (if) they get there could well be hampered by the collapse of what was once a perceived strength.

Cedric
08-25-2010, 01:42 PM
Yes, it is a streak. Chicken Little-dom notwithstanding though, I think there are significant reasons to be concerned about the rotation, both in the short term (regular season) and long term (playoffs).

Earlier in the season, the Reds had 3 and at times even 4 pretty darn effective SP (Arroyo, Cueto, Leake and Wood) with 3 injured/coming back (Volquez, Harang, Bailey). I think in recent weeks, however, that wealth of arms has begun to look more and more depleted, as Arroyo and Cueto seem to the be the only two dependable ones. Granted, Wood's performance last night could well be a measurable "bump in the road"--and if he continues to pitch effectively on the whole, the team is in far better shape. However, if Wood, like Leake, turns into a pumpkin down the stretch, then Bailey's role becomes that much more important. And I'm not sure what I think about that.

It's true. This team has recently built enough of a lead that it seems that playoff odds are pretty good right now (70%-ish last I checked according to BP). Still, as another posted mentioned, with the way the SP looks now, the Reds' chances once (if) they get there could well be hampered by the collapse of what was once a perceived strength.

I agree and it has little to do with the last four games.

Cueto is a real worry. His K/9, ld rate, and BABIP are scary. Wood, Volquez and Bailey are all young/volatile.

I see exactly one pitcher in the rotation that can be counted on to eat up innings and give quality starts. It's not a recipe for long term success. Hopefully the weak division and an average Cardinals team helps the Reds find a way through.

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2010, 01:56 PM
Cueto's BABIP is .289. Not sure why that's scary. It's only slightly lower than his career BABIP of .299.

kaldaniels
08-25-2010, 02:06 PM
One bad turn through the rotation does not warrant this thread.

The term "volatile" keeps coming up. Look at Homer Bailey and Travis Wood's stats over the past calendar year...what is volatile about their performances (when healthy no doubt, which they both are). EV...I will give you, he is an enigma.

traderumor
08-25-2010, 02:58 PM
Yes, it is a streak. Chicken Little-dom notwithstanding though, I think there are significant reasons to be concerned about the rotation, both in the short term (regular season) and long term (playoffs).

Earlier in the season, the Reds had 3 and at times even 4 pretty darn effective SP (Arroyo, Cueto, Leake and Wood) with 3 injured/coming back (Volquez, Harang, Bailey). I think in recent weeks, however, that wealth of arms has begun to look more and more depleted, as Arroyo and Cueto seem to the be the only two dependable ones. Granted, Wood's performance last night could well be a measurable "bump in the road"--and if he continues to pitch effectively on the whole, the team is in far better shape. However, if Wood, like Leake, turns into a pumpkin down the stretch, then Bailey's role becomes that much more important. And I'm not sure what I think about that. I sure hope redsmetz is right that he has "matured" enough to carry the load.

It's true. This team has recently built enough of a lead that it seems that playoff odds are pretty good right now (70%-ish last I checked according to BP). Still, as another poster mentioned, with the way the SP looks now, the Reds' chances once (if) they get there could well be hampered by the collapse of what was once a perceived strength.
Leake has been the only regular starter to take a dramatic, sustained turn for the worse.

Wood has been outstanding in all but 2 starts, but he is a 5-6 inning guy right now. Last night I am giving the benefit of the doubt as a "didn't have his stuff" night.

Homer has a chance to string together 3 outstanding starts today, we'll see, but I was very impressed Friday. The way the Giants are suddenly hot with the bats, you may not be able to conclude anything from his start today, though.

Volquez has had two stinkers in a row, but had strung together 3-4 good starts, so he still shows hope. I think inconsistency was his name pre-injury, so expectations are pretty low coming off TJ surgery. But seeing as how we are in a pennant race, he may have to work it out in long relief.

I just see the alarm being sounded as very reactionary. The staff was cruising until Cueto got lit up, then we hit a Giants team hitting like they have not all season. Reading a whole lot into that is MLB insanity. I am hoping that we somehow get a win today and fly home 6-3 on the West Coast swing. I'm ecstatic over that. Going home 5-4 is still a reasonable expectation and it is no worse than a 1-1/2 game lead when we return home. I'm not real hung up on the order of wins, just that 5 up and 4 down on the dreaded West Coast trip is acceptable.

TheNext44
08-25-2010, 02:59 PM
Every playoff team in the NL has some questions about their starters after the first two. Starting pitching is always a concern. It really isn't any more of a concern right now, than at any other time of the season.

KronoRed
08-25-2010, 03:31 PM
Can someone point out the "Panicking" in this thread? has we reached the point where everything other then sunshine and daisy posts is considered panic?

RedEye
08-25-2010, 03:41 PM
I just see the alarm being sounded as very reactionary. The staff was cruising until Cueto got lit up, then we hit a Giants team hitting like they have not all season. Reading a whole lot into that is MLB insanity.

I really hope you're right. I'd rather be insane than see the Reds lose.

I guess for me the only way to have any confidence in the rotation right now is through what you wrote earlier in your post--a slew of "coulds" and "shoulds" (Bailey should be okay and he could continue to look like a TOR starter; we could be seeing the real Travis Wood). I'm not real confident in conditional statements like this. But my hope springs eternal--and this team has earned it, to be sure.

traderumor
08-25-2010, 03:47 PM
Can someone point out the "Panicking" in this thread? has we reached the point where everything other then sunshine and daisy posts is considered panic?I view the premise of the title, 1st post and the expansions on the theme afterward as reactionary. I am looking from the perspective of not screaming my head off on the sometimes very large hills on the MLB rollercoaster. I know, some folks scream very loud on the rollercoasters, even though they know the ride is probably not going to end badly. But that is usually a reflex rather than a reasoned response.

Hoosier Red
08-25-2010, 03:51 PM
Can someone point out the "Panicking" in this thread? has we reached the point where everything other then sunshine and daisy posts is considered panic?

I'm with Traderumor. Any concern that arises out of a 16-5 loss is by it's nature reactionary.
If he had asked this question on Sunday, it'd be a different story.

RedEye
08-25-2010, 03:52 PM
I view the premise of the title, 1st post and the expansions on the theme afterward as reactionary. I am looking from the perspective of not screaming my head off on the sometimes very large hills on the MLB rollercoaster. I know, some folks scream very loud on the rollercoasters, even though they know the ride is probably not going to end badly. But that is usually a reflex rather than a reasoned response.

Well, I meant to temper the panic-potential of the thread by starting the title with "Um..." I'll admit, though, that my response was initially spurred by wondering about the implications of Wood's shaky outing. Heck, I'm a baseball fan... isn't that what this forum is for?

Anyway, all I meant to do was to generate a a modest, new discussion about the state of the rotation--which I think it has. No screaming necessary, and my apologies if I implied it.

redsmetz
08-25-2010, 03:57 PM
I think the closing statement of the first post ("Tell me I'm wrong. Please, tell me I'm wrong.") really works at not being panicked. I think a number of folks have laid out reasons why it probably isn't as bad as Redeye was feeling.

hebroncougar
08-25-2010, 03:59 PM
Looks like the Giants have a rotation problem now.

traderumor
08-25-2010, 04:02 PM
Well, I meant to temper the panic-potential of the thread by starting the title with "Um..." I'll admit, though, that my response was initially spurred by wondering about the implications of Wood's shaky outing. Heck, I'm a baseball fan... isn't that what this forum is for?

Anyway, all I meant to do was to generate a a modest, new discussion about the state of the rotation--which I think it has. No screaming necessary, and my apologies if I implied it.No problem, not trying to squelch the discussion, just think the timing is poor, as Red Hoosier pointed out. Now, come on Homer, let's take advantage of a 4-0 lead and we'll fly home 6-3!

RedEye
08-25-2010, 04:05 PM
I'm with Traderumor. Any concern that arises out of a 16-5 loss is by it's nature reactionary.
If he had asked this question on Sunday, it'd be a different story.

I've already acknowledged and apologized for the reactionary potential of my initial post, but I'm not sure this makes any sense at all. Should I take this to mean that I'm not allowed to post about my observations when I make them? Honestly, I had doubts about the rotation before last night. I've had them for much longer, but I worried that if I posted them after a gem of a game I'd get laughed off the board before anyone took me seriously. Frankly, I thought such a thread would make more sense in the context of a meltdown or two... right?

RedEye
08-25-2010, 04:09 PM
Anyway, if there is any further discussion needed on the current state of the rotation, I'd be happy to hear it. :)

kaldaniels
08-25-2010, 04:12 PM
Lets just be real. Starting a thread like this during a game where the pitchers give up 16 runs is asking for it to be called reactionary. I don't care how well laid out the premise is...the timing just wasn't good.

Hoosier Red
08-25-2010, 04:39 PM
I've already acknowledged and apologized for the reactionary potential of my initial post, but I'm not sure this makes any sense at all. Should I take this to mean that I'm not allowed to post about my observations when I make them? Honestly, I had doubts about the rotation before last night. I've had them for much longer, but I worried that if I posted them after a gem of a game I'd get laughed off the board before anyone took me seriously. Frankly, I thought such a thread would make more sense in the context of a meltdown or two... right?

Yeah sorry bout that. I had sent that before I saw your response.

In any event. I feel reasonably confident with Arroyo, Cueto, Bailey and Wood taking the mound. I think I'll feel less than comfortable with Volquez or Harang or LeCure.

The good news is that everyone feels that way about their fifth starter, and I like Volquez or Harang's chances at throwing a gem better than most fifth starters as well.

RedEye
08-25-2010, 08:00 PM
Lets just be real. Starting a thread like this during a game where the pitchers give up 16 runs is asking for it to be called reactionary. I don't care how well laid out the premise is...the timing just wasn't good.

Fair enough (although my post was actually finished right around the time that Wood gave up his 4th run, I think).

Still... isn't this site, in some ways, driven by emotional responses to a sport we collectively love? Sure, we in the ORG try to check some of our more unruly feelings at the door--especially those that provoke vulgarities on other sites--and we try to hold ourselves accountable for well-written, thought-provoking posts whenever and wherever possible. But it isn't like my thread started with a title like "God, the rotation sucks!" and then a two word initial posts like "All of 'em!" Instead, it was meant to be a carefully worded expression of doubt. Not usually what I deem reactionary, in any case.

**Cue end of meta-commentary discussion**

RedEye
08-25-2010, 08:01 PM
Recent "sky-is-falling" rotation report:

Homer Bailey @ SF 8/24 - 5 IP, 9 H, 5 ER, 2 BB, 4 K

:D

fearofpopvol1
08-25-2010, 08:18 PM
Bailey wasn't that bad today honestly. He wasn't great, but far from bad. Bray came in and stunk it up.

I am more worried about the bullpen (tiring) than I am the rotation.

kaldaniels
08-25-2010, 08:22 PM
Recent "sky-is-falling" rotation report:

Homer Bailey @ SF 8/24 - 5 IP, 9 H, 5 ER, 2 BB, 4 K

:D

Should I assume you'll be checking in here after each game for the rest of the year? :D

reds44
08-25-2010, 08:23 PM
Bailey wasn't that bad today honestly. He wasn't great, but far from bad. Bray came in and stunk it up.

I am more worried about the bullpen (tiring) than I am the rotation.

http://baseballbeginnings.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/chapman-getty-iages1.jpg

traderumor
08-25-2010, 08:23 PM
Bailey wasn't that bad today honestly. He wasn't great, but far from bad. Bray came in and stunk it up.

I am more worried about the bullpen (tiring) than I am the rotation.

I can think of no reason that Chapman isn't switched out for Bray before 7:10 Friday. If he is not, it is just some man stubbornness going on that wants to wait until 9/1. This weekend would be the perfect time to get the hype out of the way with the Cubs in town.

RedEye
08-25-2010, 08:25 PM
Should I assume you'll be checking in here after each game for the rest of the year? :D

Naturally! Well no, not really. Not unless I start seeing this as more than a streak. I have been warned. ;)

RedEye
08-25-2010, 08:27 PM
Bailey wasn't that bad today honestly. He wasn't great, but far from bad. Bray came in and stunk it up.

I am more worried about the bullpen (tiring) than I am the rotation.

Yeah, I didn't actually get a chance to watch the game. From the box score, looks like Homer was fairly strong-ish for the first four innings. Was it your impression that he should have come back out for the 6th after giving up two in the 5th?

HokieRed
08-25-2010, 08:30 PM
According to the box, he did come out for the 6th; he's credited with 5.1, then Bray comes on and gets two out with nothing happening. I didn't see the game, but is that wrong?

reds44
08-25-2010, 08:32 PM
According to the box, he did come out for the 6th; he's credited with 5.1, then Bray comes on and gets two out with nothing happening. I didn't see the game, but is that wrong?
I didn't start watching until the 8th, but I bet Bray let some inherited runners score.

fearofpopvol1
08-25-2010, 08:33 PM
I can think of no reason that Chapman isn't switched out for Bray before 7:10 Friday. If he is not, it is just some man stubbornness going on that wants to wait until 9/1. This weekend would be the perfect time to get the hype out of the way with the Cubs in town.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

RedEye
08-25-2010, 08:34 PM
According to the box, he did come out for the 6th; he's credited with 5.1, then Bray comes on and gets two out with nothing happening. I didn't see the game, but is that wrong?

Right, I think he did. What I was trying to ask was whether folks thought it was a good idea to send him out there. I like a lot of things Dusty has done this year (chief among that leading the team to a brilliant record), but I always get frustrated with his willingness to send a pitcher out there for "one more inning." Always seems to bite us in the keester--especially with guys like Bailey and Leake.

fearofpopvol1
08-25-2010, 08:38 PM
Yeah, I didn't actually get a chance to watch the game. From the box score, looks like Homer was fairly strong-ish for the first four innings. Was it your impression that he should have come back out for the 6th after giving up two in the 5th?

It's tough to say. I'd like to think he could've done better than Bray did if he had stayed out there. His pitch count was getting up though, but I think he could've handled it.

Homer Bailey
08-25-2010, 09:21 PM
I can think of no reason that Chapman isn't switched out for Bray before 7:10 Friday. If he is not, it is just some man stubbornness going on that wants to wait until 9/1. This weekend would be the perfect time to get the hype out of the way with the Cubs in town.

I think it's incredibly obvious that the Reds did not want Chapmans MLB debut to be in a city 3,000 miles away from home.

OnBaseMachine
08-28-2010, 12:47 AM
Johnny Cueto looked dominant tonight. That was some of the best stuff I've seen him have all season. He was constantly blowing 95-96 mph fastballs past hitters and also threw a few knockout sliders. 8 IP, 6 H, 1 R, 0 BB, 8 K. Very impressive start by Johnny. Hopefully he can finish the season strong and cap off what has been a very solid season for him.

sabometrics
08-28-2010, 12:49 AM
Cueto had the best stuff he's had in a long while tonight. More than the mph on the fastballs he had some nasty tailing action going away from lefties and in on righties. That, combined with his slider being on was enough to dominate.