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View Full Version : Leake to be Shut Down?



reds44
08-25-2010, 02:14 AM
From twitter:

johnfayman #Reds are considering shutting down Leake. "We're addressing it now," Baker said.

I'm all for this move. He's just got nothing left at this point.

The Operator
08-25-2010, 03:00 AM
I concur.

I really like the guy. I love his moxy on the mound and I think he's got a bright future. He deserves a big pat on the back for his rookie season.

With all that said, it's past time. Maybe move him to the DL so he can stay with the big club. I don't see any point in sending him to AAA.

RedLegSuperStar
08-25-2010, 05:12 AM
My guess is that they wait til Friday to make any more roster moves. I think you will see Chapman up and Cabrera activated. Potentially Maloney, trade/claim, or someone gets added to the 40 man roster to help the rotation.

RedLegSuperStar
08-25-2010, 05:14 AM
Could they put Leake on the DL (15/60 day)?

mth123
08-25-2010, 06:30 AM
I concur.

I really like the guy. I love his moxy on the mound and I think he's got a bright future. He deserves a big pat on the back for his rookie season.

With all that said, it's past time. Maybe move him to the DL so he can stay with the big club. I don't see any point in sending him to AAA.

Points would be:

1. He keeps pitching and stretches that IP number up to the 160's which would set him up as a potential 200 IP guy in 2011. If he stops at 140, we'll be going through this same thing next year.

2. Minor league time would push back free agency for a season. Major league DL continues to accumulate service time.

3. He gets to pitch against lesser competitiion and hopefully finish his seson with some success and possibly a taste of the AAA play-offs. That's probably a better way to send him into the off season than the memory of being a batting tee for 3 months and then being shut down.

Its long past time for Mr. Leake to be taking regular turns at Louisville IMO.

LoganBuck
08-25-2010, 06:54 AM
I didn't see what his stuff looked like last night, was it that bad?

I have been in favor of shutting him down early, I just hope it wasn't too late.

nemesis
08-25-2010, 07:19 AM
I didn't see what his stuff looked like last night, was it that bad?

I have been in favor of shutting him down early, I just hope it wasn't too late.

He seemed to trying to aim his pitches. It just looks like his ball is staying flat. Maybe he is tired, maybe he just lost the feel. Either or, it's not good.

OesterPoster
08-25-2010, 08:49 AM
Someone with a better memory than me might be able to recall how Leake pitched very late last season for Arizona State. I seem to remember him having a sore arm, but they still threw him out there for their last game. That last game he threw, I thought his ball was very flat with little movement, and he got hit pretty well.

That's what I saw last night too. Everything was pretty straight. Early in the year, his ball danced around a lot more.

bucksfan2
08-25-2010, 08:56 AM
I was against moving him to the pen to limit his innings. Guy has pitched as a starter all season long. Why mess with it? You either pitch him as a starter or shut him down for the year.

Gallen5862
08-25-2010, 09:37 AM
The Reds should Dl Leake then they could recall Jordan Smith. This way both Smith and Leake would be playoff eligible. Leake would also get the chance to rest his arm and it would limit his innings as well.

reds1869
08-25-2010, 09:43 AM
The Reds should Dl Leake then they could recall Jordan Smith. This way both Smith and Leake would be playoff eligible. Leake would also get the chance to rest his arm and it would limit his innings as well.

I am very much in favor of this. Without having the required medical info, Leake just doesn't look right. I think his mental approach is solid but he clearly isn't able to place the ball where he wants to and has less velocity than usual. A trip to the DL would be a very smart move.

paulrichjr
08-25-2010, 10:44 AM
I was against moving him to the pen to limit his innings. Guy has pitched as a starter all season long. Why mess with it? You either pitch him as a starter or shut him down for the year.

This is something that I have been thinking for a long time. The dude pitched a whale of a lot better out of the rotation but then they started skipping him to give him more rest and presto he didn't do near as well. Then he goes to the bullpen and same thing. It very well could be that he has lost it but I think it is possible that he just doesn't need 8 days between starts or whatever he was getting there toward the end. I'm not sure that the medicine isn't the problem.

LincolnparkRed
08-25-2010, 10:49 AM
I say plan for the future and send him down to LOU to let him start two more games or so, maybe throw in the playoffs and pat him on the back and say good job.

think for the future, instead of forcing him into a spot that may hurt him and the club this year

Sea Ray
08-25-2010, 10:57 AM
The white elephant that nobody's addressing is that Leake has never pitched in the minors and I have to believe that distinction is important to him. I bet he wants to be noted for that when he retires. I think this is an issue.

In the 80s Bob Hoerner refused a minor league demotion and it worked. The Braves took him back.

IslandRed
08-25-2010, 12:06 PM
Points would be:

1. He keeps pitching and stretches that IP number up to the 160's which would set him up as a potential 200 IP guy in 2011. If he stops at 140, we'll be going through this same thing next year.

2. Minor league time would push back free agency for a season. Major league DL continues to accumulate service time.

3. He gets to pitch against lesser competitiion and hopefully finish his seson with some success and possibly a taste of the AAA play-offs. That's probably a better way to send him into the off season than the memory of being a batting tee for 3 months and then being shut down.

Its long past time for Mr. Leake to be taking regular turns at Louisville IMO.

That would make sense if, and only if, his ineffectiveness has nothing to do with being worn down by the grind of his first pro season. If fatigue is the concern, then throwing him out there in Louisville isn't going to accomplish anything good. Yes, I know about wanting to stretch out the innings pitched, but life doesn't always follow the textbook. If he's done, he's done. As a first-year pro, a direct comp to college innings isn't necessarily valid.

And if he's done, sending him to Louisville is solely about jacking around with his service time. Eventually, karma gets even.

Griffey012
08-25-2010, 12:22 PM
He either needs to be shut down or sent to AAA...here is my big reason why.

He is simply not effective when he is rested, much like our main man Arroyo. Leake lives and dies by sinkers and off-speed, and anyone with pitching experience knows that when you have a live fresh arm, you throw harder and get less movement. 2-3 mph for Leake with less movement is a recipe for disaster. And we have been seeing that disaster out of the pen.

If the Reds want to extend his inning a bit more, let him do it in AAA with a few starts down there, if they want to limit his innings, then just shut him down.

Just my two cents

HokieRed
08-25-2010, 01:18 PM
Shut him down. 140's the wall. We've seen this movie before. Leake: 139/158H's/1.489 WHIP/10.2 H per 9/1.2HR/3.2BB's/5.9 K/1.86 K to BB.
Chris Reitsma, 2002, 24 yr. old season: 138.1/144/1.366/9.4/1.1/2.9/5.5/1.87.

remdog
08-25-2010, 01:24 PM
I'm of the opinion that Mike's problems are entwined with not keeping him in his regular slot. 'Stretching him out', 'saving an off-day here and there', moving him into long relief are all problems that originate when you try to change a structure for a young player that isn't familiar with what you want to change him to.

Rem

traderumor
08-25-2010, 03:05 PM
Let the record show that the Reds gave him more rope than I have. I had a fork in him a couple of weeks ago, but then psychologically, it is probably good that the Reds gave him a few chances in the bullpen before saying "hey, we want to protect that wing for you. We can take it from here. Thanks for carrying us in the first part of the season when we needed it so badly." Or something like that.

mbgrayson
08-25-2010, 03:13 PM
I think Mike Leake's loss of effectiveness stem from three main factors:

1. Being worn down, tired, and maxed out on innings. However, please look not just at his college innings last year(142 innings pitched), but please include his Arizona Fall League innings(19.2 innings), for a total of 161 innings pitched in 2009. This season he now has 138.1 regular season innings, and 18 innings in spring training, for a total of 156 innings.

2. The league has adjusted to him, and scouts have seen enough to allow teams to more effectively hit him. This is a typical issue, and Leake will need to make his own adjustments. Spending the last two weeks of the minor league season in Louisville will help determine if this is the problem, since there will be less polished hitters, and a lower level of advance scouting.

3. Loss of a regular pitching slot and structure. In his college career, Leake pitched every 7th day, and he thrived on the regular pattern. Early this season, he did well on pitching every fifth day. However, once his effectiveness dropped, perhaps the Reds were too quick to tinker around, and they gave him extra time off. This didn't work, so they tried the bullpen. Wrong answer, even worse. I think that Mike Leake simply needs a regular pattern of starting games. While relief pitching mitigates the issue of total innings pitched, it does nothing to allow Leake the structure to maintain his needed pinpoint control of all his pitches. It makes more sense to convert a power pitcher like Chapman to the pen than a finess pitcher like Leake. A minor league assignement will allow him to pitch in a regular rotation to see if this helps him regain the command of his pitches.

For these reasons, I would send Leake down to AAA for the last two weeks of their season. If he does well, he could come back, since that would show that workload and fatigue were not the problem. If he still struggles, shut him down for the year.

traderumor
08-25-2010, 03:19 PM
I think Mike Leake's loss of effectiveness stem from three main factors:

1. Being worn down, tired, and maxed out on innings. However, please look not just at his college innings last year(142 innings pitched), but please include his Arizona Fall League innings(19.2 innings), for a total of 161 innings pitched in 2009. This season he now has 138.1 regular season innings, and 18 innings in spring training, for a total of 156 innings.

2. The league has adjusted to him, and scouts have seen enough to allow teams to more effectively hit him. This is a typical issue, and Leake will need to make his own adjustments. Spending the last two weeks of the minor league season in Louisville will help determine if this is the problem, since there will be less polished hitters, and a lower level of advance scouting.

3. Loss of a regular pitching slot and structure. In his college career, Leake pitched every 7th day, and he thrived on the regular pattern. Early this season, he did well on pitching every fifth day. However, once his effectiveness dropped, perhaps the Reds were too quick to tinker around, and they gave him extra time off. This didn't work, so they tried the bullpen. Wrong answer, even worse. I think that Mike Leake simply needs a regular pattern of starting games. While relief pitching mitigates the issue of total innings pitched, it does nothing to allow Leake the structure to maintain his needed pinpoint control of all his pitches. It makes more sense to convert a power pitcher like Chapman to the pen than a finess pitcher like Leake. A minor league assignement will allow him to pitch in a regular rotation to see if this helps him regain the command of his pitches.

For these reasons, I would send Leake down to AAA for the last two weeks of their season. If he does well, he could come back, since that would show that workload and fatigue were not the problem. If he still struggles, shut him down for the year.Sinker baller, ball not sinking due to fatigue. Relies on lots of movement, which likely results from arm action which is not occurring due to fatigue. While adjustment is always a possibility, major leaguers do not need scouting reports to hit high 80s fastball in the middle of the zone with no movement. The only way fatigue is cured is through rest.

Mario-Rijo
08-25-2010, 06:32 PM
He either needs to be shut down or sent to AAA...here is my big reason why.

He is simply not effective when he is rested, much like our main man Arroyo. Leake lives and dies by sinkers and off-speed, and anyone with pitching experience knows that when you have a live fresh arm, you throw harder and get less movement. 2-3 mph for Leake with less movement is a recipe for disaster. And we have been seeing that disaster out of the pen.

If the Reds want to extend his inning a bit more, let him do it in AAA with a few starts down there, if they want to limit his innings, then just shut him down.

Just my two cents

Well said I concur send him to Louisville and stretch him out a bit more.