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View Full Version : Adversity doesn't build character....



RFS62
08-25-2010, 08:30 PM
.... it reveals it.

There's been a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth over the last three games.

It's easy to see what happened and question the talent level of this team. Certainly the pitching was enough to cause even the most optimistic of us to cringe.

But there was something else going on that is completely different than what we've observed over the last decade. In prior years, I think we'd all expect to see the team fold. How many times did we see the dreaded west coast swing do us in?

This team seems different. I've always held that talent is the final arbiter. But I've always felt that "chemistry" was an important, albeit unquantifiable component.

This team doesn't quit. They don't roll over when they're down. They get two out hits to produce runs.

They believe in themselves.

I think that it's far more instructive as to the type of team we have here that they never quit. They keep coming back, even on days like today, blowing a big lead.

I think that they gained more from coming back today than they would have had they coasted to a easy win, as it appeared they would.

Had they lost today, it would have been devestating. Had they tucked their tails between their legs and rolled over and taken the beating, it would have been just the kind of thing we've seen so many times in the past on the handful of "fool's gold" overachieving teams of the lost decade.

They didn't quit. That's huge.

RedEye
08-25-2010, 08:32 PM
Well, if they make the playoffs and then win some like this in the playoffs... it will be legendary!

Cyclone792
08-25-2010, 08:35 PM
If nothing else, I'm hoping this Giants series and today's fireworks launches this team on another nice streak.

They've sure had the fight taken to them in a multitude of games and series over the season, and they've responded well and taken the fight right back to another opponent immediately thereafter. Today, they were able to take the fight right back to the Giants and finally reclaim a game that they had let slip away unlike the two previous debacles.

I'm looking forward to a 5-1 homestand myself.

Heath
08-25-2010, 08:40 PM
This team folded in Philadelphia and everyone wrote them off. Done. Finished. Kaput.

They are taking punches. They are still in first place and just went 6-3 on a Western road trip and played a Giants team who wanted to get home after St. Louis.

Thumbs up. I've bought tickets for games in September. I'm invested and I'm in.

Heath
08-25-2010, 08:41 PM
If nothing else, I'm hoping this Giants series and today's fireworks launches this team on another nice streak.

They've sure had the fight taken to them in a multitude of games and series over the season, and they've responded well and taken the fight right back to another opponent immediately thereafter. Today, they were able to take the fight right back to the Giants and finally reclaim a game that they had let slip away unlike the two previous debacles.

I'm looking forward to a 5-1 homestand myself.

You might want to go and try to increase that 3-8 record you have.

:D

traderumor
08-25-2010, 08:44 PM
With all the crap Coco gets, today was as big a performance as he has had with the Reds. Two innings of shutout ball with the way the Giants were hitting in the series, and getting through the 5-6-7 holes to boot that no one else was able to do. My heart has just now quit pumping. That was a brutal game.

Cyclone792
08-25-2010, 08:48 PM
You might want to go and try to increase that 3-8 record you have.

:D

It's been brutal, man, just brutal. I've had winning records for years now, and finally the year in which the Reds are legitimately contending it seems like I just can't attend a winner live.

Maybe I'll see some regression to the mean in the playoffs. I'd sure take that. ;)

Griffey012
08-25-2010, 08:49 PM
Nice post RFS.

There have been probably too many times to count on my hands this season where I keep thinking the Reds are going to slip back and fall of a cliff, but it seems that these are just downticks on a stock with constant upward momentum. A stock that is going beyond the price levels anyone expected.

This team just has something about them...

HeatherC1212
08-25-2010, 11:18 PM
Great post. :thumbup:

The biggest thing I love about the Reds this year is how they are all about the TEAM. The TEAM won the game, the TEAM didn't play good defense, the TEAM got some 2 out hits, the TEAM had great pitching, and so on and so on. If you see an interview with just about any Red, they're talking about the team and not really focusing on their own stats or own accomplishments. It's all about helping the TEAM win the game. That's so awesome to see and I think that's a big part of the reason they've had so much success. You're right that you can't really quantify 'chemistry' and things like that for a team but no one will ever convince me that they don't play a part in how some teams do each season. :)

RedsManRick
08-25-2010, 11:36 PM
I like the way that this team gets up off the mat. But I'd rather they avoid the punches that put them there to begin with.

VR
08-25-2010, 11:53 PM
at 6:50 EST....after giving up the lead and trailing 11-10 headed to the 9th......and the Cards facing the Pirates.....it looked certain to be a 1 1/2 game lead at the end of the night. Fast forward a few hours, and it 's 3 1/2 games.

The Reds of the previous 5 years would have been sucking their thumb, curled up in the dugout. It's just a different era for the Reds, and I'm liking it.

Tom Servo
08-26-2010, 12:22 AM
The offense doesn't give up and I love that, but the pitching gets their brains beaten in a bit too much for my comfort.

Johnny Footstool
08-26-2010, 12:38 AM
The offense doesn't give up and I love that, but the pitching gets their brains beaten in a bit too much for my comfort.

Agreed. Some 8-2 wins would be nice.

Even some 8-5 wins.

WebScorpion
08-26-2010, 01:21 AM
I agree. These guys, to a man, leave it all on the field every night. Some nights they don't come back, but you know they are still fighting. Each improbable comeback increases their confidence to do it again, until now it's ingrained in them. They expect to come back. Even down 6 or 8 runs, I can't quit watching them...I couldn't bear to miss another miraculous resurrection.
That said, I think the Giants have quite a team themselves. Much like the Reds, their entire lineup is capable of doing some damage on offense. They don't have any pushovers there. Unfortunately, I don't think this bodes well for the Reds hopes to go deep into the 2010 playoffs. They haven't figured out how to consistently win against superior competition. They've finally figured out how to win the ones they're supposed to win most of the time...it's the top teams who still give them fits. They need to find a way to 'turn it up a notch' when the opponent is challenging. They are young and I have confidence in their ability to learn that over time. I just love watching these guys play Reds' baseball. :thumbup:

Ron Madden
08-26-2010, 03:41 AM
It sure is entertaining to root for a good team, especially one in a pennant race. :beerme:


I'm really happy for the younger fans in Reds Country. Now they know the feeling.

GAC
08-26-2010, 05:11 AM
.... it reveals it.

If nothing else... that disastrous home series sweep (and brawl) with the Cards is evidence of that.

Good post dave.

reds1869
08-26-2010, 06:34 AM
Excellent post. This team is the kind we will talk about for years because of their spirit. Yesterday's game is one that very few teams would have recovered to win. I went from feeling dejected at having blown the lead to proud of how Cincinnati clawed back after taken San Francisco's best punch.

membengal
08-26-2010, 06:55 AM
The offense doesn't give up and I love that, but the pitching gets their brains beaten in a bit too much for my comfort.

After the Philly series, pretty sure I read general sentiment that the pitching doesn't give up but the offense lies down a bit too much for peoples comfort...

Just saying, that this team is flawed, occasionally, both ways. All the threads expressing discomfort over all the shut-outs the offense has had turned in against them, and a pitching staff that on too many occasions treats large leads like this is the Rumpke league.

And even with all that, up 3 1/2 games with 35 to play. Amazing.

RFS62
08-26-2010, 06:58 AM
A lot of fans would love to have the Big Red Machine back. Who wouldn't?

But that's an impossible standard to judge these guys against.

We're not perfect. We have many flaws, when measured against that team.

It doesn't bother me that we have flaws. It adds drama to the situation. This years Reds have produced some great theater.

It's the imperfect nature of the team that makes every game a potential roller coaster.

We get knocked down, we get back up. Again and again. Our competitive spirit is impecable.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts with this team.

And I for one sure am enjoying the ride and the theater of it all.

traderumor
08-26-2010, 07:28 AM
Comparisons to the BRM--that game actually reminded me of the types of games they would have all too frequently.

Roy Tucker
08-26-2010, 08:15 AM
I think yesterday's game is a classic case of what its like to follow your team through a pennant chase. It truly is the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. The mood swings are titanic.

But there is nothing like driving around in late August listening to the radio and living and dying with each pitch, each out, and each run. Listening to the action and your mind's eye seeing the Reds road grays, the Giants' cream, envisioning the plays, hearing the enemy crowd roar repeatedly but ultimately go silent. Getting to the point where you can hardly stand to listen to it fearing for the worst but hoping for the best.

I love it. It doesn't get any better than this.

Caveat Emperor
08-26-2010, 08:22 AM
I think yesterday's game is a classic case of what its like to follow your team through a pennant chase. It truly is the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. The mood swings are titanic.

But there is nothing like driving around in late August listening to the radio and living and dying with each pitch, each out, and each run. Listening to the action and your mind's eye seeing the Reds road grays, the Giants' cream, envisioning the plays, hearing the enemy crowd roar repeatedly but ultimately go silent. Getting to the point where you can hardly stand to listen to it fearing for the worst but hoping for the best.

I love it. It doesn't get any better than this.

It's such a foriegn concept to me after a decade of following Reds baseball in the August/September months solely to hear how some prospect was doing.

15fan
08-26-2010, 08:49 AM
A lot of fans would love to have the Big Red Machine back. Who wouldn't?

But that's an impossible standard to judge these guys against.

We're not perfect. We have many flaws, when measured against that team.

It doesn't bother me that we have flaws. It adds drama to the situation. This years Reds have produced some great theater.

I think this team favors the 1990 team. 90 Reds had a dominant back end of the bullpen. 10 Reds have Joey Votto. Get past those differences, and the similarities become almost eerie.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-26-2010, 08:53 AM
I think yesterday's game is a classic case of what its like to follow your team through a pennant chase. It truly is the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. The mood swings are titanic.

But there is nothing like driving around in late August listening to the radio and living and dying with each pitch, each out, and each run. Listening to the action and your mind's eye seeing the Reds road grays, the Giants' cream, envisioning the plays, hearing the enemy crowd roar repeatedly but ultimately go silent. Getting to the point where you can hardly stand to listen to it fearing for the worst but hoping for the best.

I love it. It doesn't get any better than this.

This sums up my feelings perfectly.

Yesterday's game was torture. It took me a while (even after the win) to calm down. I love that feeling.

GoReds
08-26-2010, 08:56 AM
I'm concerned that the teams they are losing to (Philly, St. Louis, San Francisco) are the very teams they are likely to face if they make the playoffs. At some point, this team needs to figure out that they can and should beat these teams.

I hope they don't get to the playoffs and just feel happy to be there.

Crosley68
08-26-2010, 09:34 AM
A lot of fans would love to have the Big Red Machine back. Who wouldn't?

But that's an impossible standard to judge these guys against.

We're not perfect. We have many flaws, when measured against that team.

It doesn't bother me that we have flaws. It adds drama to the situation. This years Reds have produced some great theater.

It's the imperfect nature of the team that makes every game a potential roller coaster.

We get knocked down, we get back up. Again and again. Our competitive spirit is impecable.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts with this team.

And I for one sure am enjoying the ride and the theater of it all.

This makes me think about the Chumbawamba song "Tubthumping" maybe that can be this teams THEME SONG.

traderumor
08-26-2010, 09:39 AM
I'm concerned that the teams they are losing to (Philly, St. Louis, San Francisco) are the very teams they are likely to face if they make the playoffs. At some point, this team needs to figure out that they can and should beat these teams.

I hope they don't get to the playoffs and just feel happy to be there.They split with the Giants at home, lost 2 of 3 there. They beat Philly 2 of 3 in Cincy. They have won a series at home against the Cards this year. They struggled in those team's home park, where all have lights out records. I'd say that is pretty normal against playoff caliber teams.

lollipopcurve
08-26-2010, 09:43 AM
There are still many twists and turns ahead, many gut checks. A wave of injury is passing through the team. Can they weather it? If Phillips is out, ouch.

So far, they've shown they have a lot of mettle. They also have youth. That could be good, or bad.

September, with Chapman aboard and perhaps a couple other new faces, looms. You want drama? We may not have seen nothin, yet.

Roy Tucker
08-26-2010, 09:50 AM
September, with Chapman aboard and perhaps a couple other new faces, looms. You want drama? We may not have seen nothin, yet.


Yep, its not even September yet. That's when it really gets fun. No more "well, we still have quite a few games left".

All I can say is make sure you take it all in and revel in it and live and die with each moment. It doesn't come along that often.

I told my son the above line in 1995 after the Reds beat the Dodgers in game 3 of the Division Series to move on to the NLCS. Little did I know that would be that last playoff game the Reds won to date. The 15-years-and-counting Roy kiss of death. Zach was 7 then. He's 22 now.

Homer Bailey
08-26-2010, 09:53 AM
This song (from a nike commercial) reminds me a lot of this Reds team.


YouTube - The Hours - Ali In The Jungle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxNX5M_XSeA&ob=av2n)

BuckeyeRedleg
08-26-2010, 10:16 AM
I told my son the above line in 1995 after the Reds beat the Dodgers in game 3 of the Division Series to move on to the NLCS. Little did I know that would be that last playoff game the Reds won to date. The 15-years-and-counting Roy kiss of death. Zach was 7 then. He's 22 now.

I was at that game just a few rows behind the Dodger dugout. Nomo I think was on the hill for LA (vs. Wells) and, for some reason, I'm thinking the Cowboy closed it out with some emotional fist pumps.

What a night.

And then swept by the Braves the following week. I still have visions of Reggie Sanders swinging through fastballs right down the middle over and over again.

dabvu2498
08-26-2010, 10:24 AM
I think yesterday's game is a classic case of what its like to follow your team through a pennant chase. It truly is the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. The mood swings are titanic.

But there is nothing like driving around in late August listening to the radio and living and dying with each pitch, each out, and each run. Listening to the action and your mind's eye seeing the Reds road grays, the Giants' cream, envisioning the plays, hearing the enemy crowd roar repeatedly but ultimately go silent. Getting to the point where you can hardly stand to listen to it fearing for the worst but hoping for the best.

I love it. It doesn't get any better than this.

I'm already to the point where I can't watch or listen while the Reds are in the field. I'm fine when they're batting, but the idea of them giving up runs disturbs me to the point where I have to turn away. Too nervous.

Weird, I know. :D

BRM
08-26-2010, 10:40 AM
Weird, I know. :D

We're used to weirdness from you. ;)

RichRed
08-26-2010, 10:44 AM
I'm already to the point where I can't watch or listen while the Reds are in the field. I'm fine when they're batting, but the idea of them giving up runs disturbs me to the point where I have to turn away. Too nervous.

Weird, I know. :D

I get like that too. If I'm watching a game I've recorded, I often have to fast forward through the Reds' pitching. A guy can take only so much.

Enjoying the heck out of this season though.

RANDY IN INDY
08-26-2010, 10:58 AM
A lot of fans would love to have the Big Red Machine back. Who wouldn't?

But that's an impossible standard to judge these guys against.

We're not perfect. We have many flaws, when measured against that team.

It doesn't bother me that we have flaws. It adds drama to the situation. This years Reds have produced some great theater.

It's the imperfect nature of the team that makes every game a potential roller coaster.

We get knocked down, we get back up. Again and again. Our competitive spirit is impecable.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts with this team.

And I for one sure am enjoying the ride and the theater of it all.

Me too!

blumj
08-26-2010, 11:10 AM
I'm already to the point where I can't watch or listen while the Reds are in the field. I'm fine when they're batting, but the idea of them giving up runs disturbs me to the point where I have to turn away. Too nervous.

Weird, I know. :D

I get like that, too, I can watch or listen early, but when a game's close late I might be able to listen but I definitely can't watch. You probably don't need me to tell you it gets worse with playoff games, and you might need medication for elimination games.

jojo
08-26-2010, 11:21 AM
To me things like last night and their play after the Phillies or Cards series isn't about character. It's a tell about true talent on the roster. The "bouncing back" suggests this team legitimately has the talent to win games/hang with other talented rosters while the number of large leads blown suggests while a good roster, there are some flaws. In other words, there's probably enough on the roster to inspire confidence in US AS FANS that this team might be able to do something really cool.

It's probably a rather rare thing for a team with sufficient talent to actually have a intangible makeup where choking is actually an issue. That of course is my bias.

Also, we've heard throughout the season that the Reds pitching is below average and the Reds are therefore doomed. But baseball has multiple phases and while their staff is below average based upon ranking NL teams by peripherals, they are significantly above average offensively and defensively this season. Their flaw is mitigated by a true strength which is different from the lost decade where a glaring flaw was exacerbated by an impossibly bad defense.

So not the BRM? Well that's true, they're flawed and it's the pitching that has led to several huge leads being erased. But in the aggregate, they are legitimately competitive and I'd argue that's why they bounce back. It's hard to keep a good (talented) man down consistently and over long stretches.

RedEye
08-26-2010, 11:55 AM
It's probably a rather rare thing for a team with sufficient talent to actually have a intangible makeup where choking is actually an issue. That of course is my bias.


Interesting. I tend to agree with you generally that talent is the most important predictor of success. Still, various recent teams come to mind that have had talent but still lost. Take the recent Mets teams, for example. They definitely had talent--but still managed to lose a lot of games at the end of every season. Of course, I haven't checked the stats--maybe the Mets of recent years did have glaring weaknesses that I'm overlooking. But if memory serves, they were good fielding, good pitching, good hitting teams that still managed to bobble the ball before they reached the endzone. Right?

dabvu2498
08-26-2010, 12:06 PM
I get like that, too, I can watch or listen early, but when a game's close late I might be able to listen but I definitely can't watch. You probably don't need me to tell you it gets worse with playoff games, and you might need medication for elimination games.

There's no chance I could actually attend a playoff game with anything other than SRO tickets. As if my pacing around will somehow help them out.

bucksfan2
08-26-2010, 12:08 PM
Interesting. I tend to agree with you generally that talent is the most important predictor of success. Still, various recent teams come to mind that have had talent but still lost. Take the recent Mets teams, for example. They definitely had talent--but still managed to lose a lot of games at the end of every season. Of course, I haven't checked the stats--maybe the Mets of recent years did have glaring weaknesses that I'm overlooking. But if memory serves, they were good fielding, good pitching, good hitting teams that still managed to bobble the ball before they reached the endzone. Right?

The Mets did it two years in a row with sizable leads late in the season. Their tank job starter around the same time each season. I believe there was a big time rift between the the American players and the Latino's on the Mets team. IIRC during a late season swoon David Wright was one of the only Mets to speak to the public. All of the Latino's stood together and refuse to take accountability for any of the Mets problems.

Anyone who refuses to believe that character and makeup doesn't play a large role in championship baseball is missing something. But then again we have been down this road before.

Reds Fanatic
08-26-2010, 12:17 PM
I get like that, too, I can watch or listen early, but when a game's close late I might be able to listen but I definitely can't watch. You probably don't need me to tell you it gets worse with playoff games, and you might need medication for elimination games.

I love the intensity of playoff games. Yesterday felt a lot like a playoff game especially toward the end. I was at the NLDS against LA in 1995 and that is still one the greatest atmospheres I have ever been in at a sporting event. One thing I also really remember from 1990 was how intense the NLCS with Pittsburgh was. Just a lot of close back and forth games. I felt almost sick to my stomach during most of that series it was so tense and I felt the same way last night.

Reds Freak
08-26-2010, 12:30 PM
I'm already to the point where I can't watch or listen while the Reds are in the field. I'm fine when they're batting, but the idea of them giving up runs disturbs me to the point where I have to turn away. Too nervous.

Weird, I know. :D

I'm the opposite. I'd rather listen when the Reds are in the field than when they are hitting, especially when the Reds have a lead. I'd rather come back and be pleasantly surprised that the Reds scored a few runs then come back and be pissed that they gave up the lead. I listen/watch most of the time anyway but I always take my bathroom breaks, food runs, etc. while the Reds are batting...

blumj
08-26-2010, 12:38 PM
The Mets did it two years in a row with sizable leads late in the season. Their tank job starter around the same time each season. I believe there was a big time rift between the the American players and the Latino's on the Mets team. IIRC during a late season swoon David Wright was one of the only Mets to speak to the public. All of the Latino's stood together and refuse to take accountability for any of the Mets problems.

Anyone who refuses to believe that character and makeup doesn't play a large role in championship baseball is missing something. But then again we have been down this road before.
To me, the Mets always seem like the perfect example of why you don't want a stars and scrubs team. The Cards always seem like the best example of how it can work, if you're lucky and maybe your scrubs aren't as scrubby as they seem. The Mets scrubs always seem completely scrubby to me, so as the season goes along and guys get hurt and slump, they crumble because they have to rely too much on scrubs. Their non-stars mostly seem like guys who should have retired already 2 or 3 years ago or they're so young they should still be in AA or they're just guys who've been around but were never any good to begin with.

Roy Tucker
08-26-2010, 12:49 PM
I actually sometimes stand in front of the TV set and put my hand over my eyes and peek through my fingers while repeatedly saying a bad word.

This is a grown man doing this. :redface:

gonelong
08-26-2010, 01:43 PM
This team has been able to right the ship during the regular season, and I do believe this team will make the playoffs. They are steady on a week-by-week basis. It's the game-by-game basis that has me concerned.

IMO it's not so much about "choking", but about confidence. Not just a player's confidence in himself, but specifically, in his teammates. This of course, speaks to having a talented roster.

If you feel like all you have to do is your part, you will take a walk, or shorten up to get a ball into play. If you feel like you have to do it all yourself, then you are likely to swing for the fences, force a throw, etc.

Similar to trying to your Tee shot 20 yards farther in a two-man scramble, it works occasionally, but fails more often than not. If you can relax knowing that if you put it anywhere in the fairway 220+ the next guy can put it on the green, you can relax and do your job.

A large part of the problem, IMO, with the Cardinal series is that the players all tensed up and tried to do to much. I think we saw a bit of that in the SF series as well. The OFs tried to throw guys out on the bases, missing the cut-off man, and gave up a slew-and-a-half of extra bases.

I also think there is a reasonable chance the team will tighten up if things don't go their way early in playoff games. Hopefully Rolen and the vets can build towards keeping the ship steady on an inning-by-inning basis.

GL

/This Reds team has me falling in love with them all over again.

GAC
08-28-2010, 11:11 AM
We get knocked down, we get back up. Again and again. Our competitive spirit is impecable.

We're...

http://www.rubinville.com/dailydave/uploaded_images/rocky2-769295.jpg

Chip R
08-28-2010, 11:21 AM
We're...

http://www.rubinville.com/dailydave/uploaded_images/rocky2-769295.jpg

Uh, Rocky lost that fight. :eek:

Sea Ray
08-28-2010, 11:27 AM
Agreed. Some 8-2 wins would be nice.

Even some 8-5 wins.

How 'bout 7-1? Send your appreciation to Mr Jay Bruce, GABP

Heath
08-28-2010, 08:25 PM
This team doesn't quit. They don't roll over when they're down.

They didn't quit. That's huge.


We're...

http://www.rubinville.com/dailydave/uploaded_images/rocky2-769295.jpg


No we're Chumbawumba. Because when we're singing, we'll be winning..

YouTube - Chumbawamba - Tubthumping (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H5uWRjFsGc)

GAC
08-29-2010, 05:29 AM
Uh, Rocky lost that fight. :eek:

He lost that one. Adversity builds character. How many did he win after that? ;)

jojo
08-29-2010, 08:23 AM
He lost that one. Adversity builds character. How many did he win after that? ;)

He eventually ended up in the poor house, street fightin'....

Degenerate39
08-29-2010, 09:20 AM
He lost that one. Adversity builds character. How many did he win after that? ;)

Hopefully they don't lose the eye of the tiger then

RFS62
08-29-2010, 09:52 AM
If we're going for a movie reference, I was thinking more along the lines of this fight.


http://rachelhulin.com/blog/wp-content/images/assets_c/2008/09/coolhandluke-thumb-600x401.jpg

Joseph
08-29-2010, 09:53 AM
Hopefully they don't lose the eye of the tiger then

What we need is a 1980's movie montage to get us through to the playoffs! Maybe with some Scandal, 'The Warrior' as the montage theme.

Degenerate39
08-29-2010, 09:56 AM
What we need is a 1980's movie montage to get us through to the playoffs! Maybe with some Scandal, 'The Warrior' as the montage theme.

I think this would be the most appropriate. Just imagine the Russian being Pujols :thumbup:

YouTube - TRAINING MONTAGE FROM ROCKY IV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwvoTDoO9Hg)

Chip R
08-29-2010, 11:14 AM
If we're going for a movie reference, I was thinking more along the lines of this fight.


http://rachelhulin.com/blog/wp-content/images/assets_c/2008/09/coolhandluke-thumb-600x401.jpg

OK, Luke was shot in that film. If you're going for film references, how about this one.

http://passionweiss.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/3698331020a.jpg

Degenerate39
08-29-2010, 08:12 PM
OK, Luke was shot in that film. If you're going for film references, how about this one.

http://passionweiss.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/3698331020a.jpg

They lost in the playoffs

_Sir_Charles_
08-29-2010, 09:42 PM
OK, Luke was shot in that film. If you're going for film references, how about this one.

http://passionweiss.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/3698331020a.jpg

Didn't they have a nearly nude poster of the team owner in the clubhouse. Ewwwwww. I shudder at the thought of Phillips peeling away strips of Bob C's clothing. *shiver*