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Kingspoint
08-26-2010, 02:37 AM
I believe an elite team is a team that wins the games it is supposed to win.

Excluding three series over the last 19 series (PHI, STL, SFG), the REDS are 15-0-1.

15-0-1!

That to me, is an elite team.

I don't believe there is another team in the Majors that can claim 15 Series Victories in it's last 19 series. I think the 2010 REDS stand alone here.

webbbj
08-26-2010, 03:37 AM
i think its a team that is a real WS contending favorite. i may have high expectations but i think there are only 3 elite teams in baseball: phillies (until proven otherwise i think their the NL faves), yanks, and rays.

i think to be elite you cant just be a team that gets to the playoffs but a team that is feared, favored and advances.

its hopes and expectations. i hope the reds can get to the WS. i expect the yanks, rays and phillies to be there. when the reds get to that level of expectation and deliver upon it then they will be elite.

Kingspoint
08-26-2010, 04:40 AM
i think its a team that is a real WS contending favorite. i may have high expectations but i think there are only 3 elite teams in baseball: phillies (until proven otherwise i think their the NL faves), yanks, and rays.

i think to be elite you cant just be a team that gets to the playoffs but a team that is feared, favored and advances.

its hopes and expectations. i hope the reds can get to the WS. i expect the yanks, rays and phillies to be there. when the reds get to that level of expectation and deliver upon it then they will be elite.

As much as I tried to spin the 2010 REDS as positively as I could, I agree that you can't win a World Series without having one of the 10 best Starting Pitchers of that particular year. If you have that, then that pitcher can get hot for the playoffs and beat the other Aces, vaulting your team to a World Series.

Do I think the REDS have one of the Top-10 pitchers in Baseball in 2010?

No. Not even close. The closest we've got is Bronson Arroyo and he's not the type of pitcher that's going to shut down the opposition to 0, 1, or 2 runs for 7 Innings consistently throughout the playoffs.

Those pitchers for 2010 are (only listing teams I think can reach the playoffs):

Mat Latos (SDP)
Adam Wainwright (STL)
Tim Hudson (ATL)
Roy Halladay (PHI)
Jaime Garcia (STL)
Roy Oswalt (PHI)
Cliff Lee (TEX)
Clay Buchholz (BOS)
John Danks (CHW)
C. J. Wilson (TEX)

I think this also eliminates the New York Yankees, the Minnesota Twins, the Cincinnati Reds, the San Fransisco Giants, and the Tampa Bay Rays.

The World Series Winner should come from the Padres, Cardinals, Braves, Phillies, Red Sox, White Sox, or Rangers.

Clearly with the Phillies, Rangers and Cardinals having two each, their chances of winning the whole thing greatly increase if they reach the playoffs. It's in the REDS' best interests if both the Phillies and the Cardinals miss the playoffs. (You saw what happened head-to-head with those clubs.....need I remind anyone of ofer-seven?)

I firmly believe you have to have that "ACE".

The REDS have potential ACES in:

Bailey, Cueto, Wood, Chapman, and Volquez. It will be a lot of fun to watch how these five pitchers fair during September and October and 2011. We should have a very good idea which of these five have a "legitimate" shot to be an ACE by July 15th of next year.

In the mean time, I'm going to love every minute of the rest of the season. My BlackHawks already won the Stanley Cup. I expect my REDS to make the playoffs and win a couple of games and I also expect my Bengals to win another AFC North Division, but this year win a playoff game.

MikeThierry
08-26-2010, 06:51 AM
Kings, I think an elite team is a team that not only beats the teams its supposed to beat but beats other good teams as well. If you look at the Yankees, they not only beat the teams they are supposed to beat but also do well against teams that have above .500 records.

That is a good list of pitchers but I think when talking about the AL, its a completely different animal as far as starting pitching goes. Technically CC Sabathia isn't having the year of an Adam Wainwright or Matt Latos but he is a proven winner and has shut down teams in the playoffs. I wouldn't overlook the Yankees or Rays pitching staffs.

New York Red
08-26-2010, 11:17 AM
Bronson may not meet your criteria of a top ten pitcher, but (I believe) he is currently in the top ten among all ML pitchers in wins and innings pitched. I'm not arguing that he's one of the best ten pitchers in MLB. Just saying he's pretty good. Right now I have plenty of confidence in him starting Game One of the postseason for us. And despite his last outing, I feel the same way about Cueto. Neither are "top ten", but both are high on the next tier.

As for elite teams, the Reds may not be at this point, but how many teams truly are elite year in and year out? That's a really short list that usually changes every couple years - with the exception of the Yankees. I like where the Reds are right now, and feel really good about where they can get to in the next couple years.

Vottomatic
08-26-2010, 12:18 PM
What is an elite team?

An elite team is.........


Oh, I thought I was supposed to write an essay or something.

gmt
08-26-2010, 12:32 PM
I don't think one year can define an elite team. Maybe not even two years. The Big Red Machine was an elite team. The Yankees are for the most part an elite team. The Tampa Bay Rays are close to an elite team. The Cardinals have been an elite team, but probably not for a few years now. The Reds could be, but let's see what happens the remainder of this season and the next couple.

Vottomatic
08-26-2010, 12:35 PM
People need to remember that certain parts of the Big Red Machine didn't arrive until later. They had Tolan and Lee May early on and were still going to the postseason and super competitive. Howsam kept tinkering to find the right combination and was willing to trade key parts to get the right parts.

That will most likely happen with this team. Key components will remain, but some trades will take place to make it even better. Atleast we hope.

redssince75
08-26-2010, 01:20 PM
I believe an elite team is a team that wins the games it is supposed to win.



Well this is a poor start to the whole analysis. "Win the games you're supposed to win"? That has nothing to do with elite.

Brewers & Pirates 2011. Let's say the Brewers are piss-poor and are only "supposed" to beat the Pirates next year. Then let's say they beat the Pirates every time out but lose to everyone else. Under your definition the 18-144 Brewers are an "elite" 2011 team.

brm7675
08-26-2010, 01:50 PM
Simple answer, the elite teams have:

1. Winning record
2. make the playoffs.

redssince75
08-26-2010, 02:00 PM
Simple answer, the elite teams have:

1. Winning record
2. make the playoffs.

No. Since all playoff teams have winning records (I think that has been the case even since new divisions & wild card), you're only saying "playoff=elite."

Some above have it right that on a historical level, elite is a several-year run of greatness. Winning a WS won't even make you elite on that level.

But, I think you can have such a concept as a single-year "elite" team too. A single-year elite team just seems special and heads-and-shoulders above the competition. I don't think we necessarily see a 2010 NL elite team, perhaps the Padres, but probably not.

brm7675
08-26-2010, 02:07 PM
Back in the day you may have been right, but today to be elite means you make the playoffs.

redssince75
08-26-2010, 02:09 PM
Back in the day you may have been right, but today to be elite means you make the playoffs.


I think you have it backwards...."back in the day" when 2 teams made the playoffs, maybe they were both elite. Modern day, no way all 8 playoff teams are "elite".

Girevik
08-26-2010, 02:23 PM
I think you have it backwards...."back in the day" when 2 teams made the playoffs, maybe they were both elite. Modern day, no way all 8 playoff teams are "elite".

I think the point he was making was that "back in the day" you could have an elite team NOT makes the playoffs, if you happened to be in a division with another elite team. Now all elite teams get in, plus some good and even average teams.

Kingspoint
08-27-2010, 02:39 AM
Well this is a poor start to the whole analysis. "Win the games you're supposed to win"? That has nothing to do with elite.

Brewers & Pirates 2011. Let's say the Brewers are piss-poor and are only "supposed" to beat the Pirates next year. Then let's say they beat the Pirates every time out but lose to everyone else. Under your definition the 18-144 Brewers are an "elite" 2011 team.

You're right. I said in my next post that I was trying my best to create a positive spin on the 2010 REDS.

Vottomatic
08-27-2010, 03:45 AM
Wow. Just got home from work and was really anxious to find out what an elite team is and you guys still haven't figured it out for me.

Geez.

lidspinner
08-27-2010, 08:56 AM
As much as I tried to spin the 2010 REDS as positively as I could, I agree that you can't win a World Series without having one of the 10 best Starting Pitchers of that particular year. If you have that, then that pitcher can get hot for the playoffs and beat the other Aces, vaulting your team to a World Series.

Do I think the REDS have one of the Top-10 pitchers in Baseball in 2010?

No. Not even close. The closest we've got is Bronson Arroyo and he's not the type of pitcher that's going to shut down the opposition to 0, 1, or 2 runs for 7 Innings consistently throughout the playoffs.

Those pitchers for 2010 are (only listing teams I think can reach the playoffs):

Mat Latos (SDP)
Adam Wainwright (STL)
Tim Hudson (ATL)
Roy Halladay (PHI)
Jaime Garcia (STL)
Roy Oswalt (PHI)
Cliff Lee (TEX)
Clay Buchholz (BOS)
John Danks (CHW)
C. J. Wilson (TEX)

I think this also eliminates the New York Yankees, the Minnesota Twins, the Cincinnati Reds, the San Fransisco Giants, and the Tampa Bay Rays.

The World Series Winner should come from the Padres, Cardinals, Braves, Phillies, Red Sox, White Sox, or Rangers.

Clearly with the Phillies, Rangers and Cardinals having two each, their chances of winning the whole thing greatly increase if they reach the playoffs. It's in the REDS' best interests if both the Phillies and the Cardinals miss the playoffs. (You saw what happened head-to-head with those clubs.....need I remind anyone of ofer-seven?)

I firmly believe you have to have that "ACE".

The REDS have potential ACES in:

Bailey, Cueto, Wood, Chapman, and Volquez. It will be a lot of fun to watch how these five pitchers fair during September and October and 2011. We should have a very good idea which of these five have a "legitimate" shot to be an ACE by July 15th of next year.

In the mean time, I'm going to love every minute of the rest of the season. My BlackHawks already won the Stanley Cup. I expect my REDS to make the playoffs and win a couple of games and I also expect my Bengals to win another AFC North Division, but this year win a playoff game.


you just lost all cred you had on here with me. :D

then again, I am a Browns fan so maybe my rep isnt so hot either.

Kingspoint
10-13-2010, 02:39 AM
As much as I tried to spin the 2010 REDS as positively as I could, I agree that you can't win a World Series without having one of the 10 best Starting Pitchers of that particular year. If you have that, then that pitcher can get hot for the playoffs and beat the other Aces, vaulting your team to a World Series.

Do I think the REDS have one of the Top-10 pitchers in Baseball in 2010?

No. Not even close. The closest we've got is Bronson Arroyo and he's not the type of pitcher that's going to shut down the opposition to 0, 1, or 2 runs for 7 Innings consistently throughout the playoffs.

Those pitchers for 2010 are (only listing teams I think can reach the playoffs):

Mat Latos (SDP)
Adam Wainwright (STL)
Tim Hudson (ATL)
Roy Halladay (PHI)
Jaime Garcia (STL)
Roy Oswalt (PHI)
Cliff Lee (TEX)
Clay Buchholz (BOS)
John Danks (CHW)
C. J. Wilson (TEX)

I think this also eliminates the New York Yankees, the Minnesota Twins, the Cincinnati Reds, the San Fransisco Giants, and the Tampa Bay Rays.

The World Series Winner should come from the Padres, Cardinals, Braves, Phillies, Red Sox, White Sox, or Rangers.

Clearly with the Phillies, Rangers and Cardinals having two each, their chances of winning the whole thing greatly increase if they reach the playoffs. It's in the REDS' best interests if both the Phillies and the Cardinals miss the playoffs. (You saw what happened head-to-head with those clubs.....need I remind anyone of ofer-seven?)

I firmly believe you have to have that "ACE".

The REDS have potential ACES in:

Bailey, Cueto, Wood, Chapman, and Volquez. It will be a lot of fun to watch how these five pitchers fair during September and October and 2011. We should have a very good idea which of these five have a "legitimate" shot to be an ACE by July 15th of next year.

In the mean time, I'm going to love every minute of the rest of the season. My BlackHawks already won the Stanley Cup. I expect my REDS to make the playoffs and win a couple of games and I also expect my Bengals to win another AFC North Division, but this year win a playoff game.

Unfortunately, the REDS had to face the Phillies in the First Round. Also, unfortunately, the Bengals appear to be heading towards a sub-.500 season. But, I still stand by the statement that among Bailey, Cueto, Wood, Chapman, and Volquez, there is a potential ACE among that group.

Nothing ever changes. You must have an ACE to WIN a World Series. Should be a great series between the Phillies and Rangers.

DocRed
10-13-2010, 11:56 AM
Teams that have a TRUE #1 starter...look the the 4 teams in the division championship they all have true #1 starters.... Halladay, Lee, Lincecum, Sabathia.

Philsfan10
10-13-2010, 02:50 PM
How much do you think Lee will want for his contract? If the Reds could somehow grab him then him + Bronson would be a sick 1-2....

PeteRoseBelongs
10-13-2010, 03:05 PM
dont be so quick to eliminate the Giants. they have some solid pitching. Saying that I like the Rangers and Phillies.

but what makes a great team. Simply a great team has great chemistry, there is no I in team and people are working together.

I am from the Tampa area. The ray are showing that they know how to build an organization. The rays are not an elite team because it's manager will not allow it to be. They are not a great team because they don't draw so they can't afford to keep that talent together.

the Rangers and Nolen Ryan are building a great and fun team. I hate the Phillies, they have tremendous talent but when you have a 150 million payroll you better be able to compete.

The reds are building a great team. I think we are still a couple of years off. You all know I hate Dusty Baker. I don't trust him with this young team and I don't trust that he makes decissions in critical times of games to help us win. I know that the Bobby Cox's of the world are few and far between but Dusty is no Bobby. Everyone wants a elite left fielder on this team. I think that if we just give the guys times then you will find that we have a great deal of talent. I want to see Dave Seppelt a chance at some pt.

Philsfan10
10-13-2010, 04:14 PM
Look at the Phillies 2007 Playoffs run. They had a drought of 14 years (1993-2007)before a playoff appearance and they were swept in the first round. It takes careful building of a team and fan support to get your team to what the Phillies have been the past few years. Supporting your team and showing up helps the team to bring in the revenue to get the team built up to dominate.

Talking payrolls of the teams vs. each other look at what the Phillies had in 2007 when they appeared the first time, it was very similar to the situation the reds are in now. I am fairly convinced that if you guys keep supporting the reds and bring them in the money they need to build domination then it’s possible.


Despite what happens your continued support for your team could enable them to build one of the most dominant teams in the NL.

I went to a game in 2007 (Who is this Cole Hamels guy???) The stands were hardly full, we got a seat right behind 1st base.... it's impossible to even get tickets without a season ticket package now and even if I could get tickets they were in the farthest part of the park (could barely see the field). It takes fan support to bring in the big players, fans are as much of a part of building the teams as the managers are (while smaller of course...)

PeteRoseBelongs
10-13-2010, 04:32 PM
nice to hear from you Phillies fan. That goes right along with why I can never put the Rays in that same sentence as any really great team. They have no fan support. All they are is a farm system for the rest of baseball. Get a great player develop them and then deal them. Crawford, Longoria, Upton, Price, and the list goes on will not be able to sign with the Rays longterm. The players association would never allow them to take below fair market. So unfortunately the Rays will have happy times but no long term. Just no support. One thing about us reds and bengals fans. We always have next year to look forward too.

Philsfan10
10-13-2010, 04:50 PM
I hate to say I agree with Evan Longoria said to the press but it's damn true. They have NO one going to their games, they can't begin to wonder why its hard for them to get established players to come play for them.

Reds proved that being the division NL west champions, having a triple crown and A+ defense that they are a desirable team to go to, and they will have the support they deserve.

It's all about being desirable for them to go to, money is first obviously in trades but a team that has no chances of winning (or maybe winning but not staying together long enough for another run) aren't successful. Look at the Marlins, lol. They won 2 WS in 10 years span and they probably could get *maybe* 5-10k fans a night? I'm shooting high I think...

PeteRoseBelongs
10-13-2010, 05:04 PM
Longoria is the only real leader on the Rays right now. I love how he called out Upton for dogging out a fly ball. It was great. In defense of the Rays fans they are the only franchise in baseball where 2/3rds of its ticket sales are supposed to driven by normal daily fans. In any other market 2/3rds are corporate driven and 1/3 people like you and I. there are no businesses in that area. Its a good place to be just a terrible location. If they would move it to tampa in Hillsborough County it would go from 500 thousand living in a 30 min radious to 1.5 min living in a 30 min radious and if they move it towards the fairgrounds that number jumps to like 2.5 million within 30 min. that is a big deal. The major of St. Pete is holding them to the lease. Tampa won't get involved. I think it is funny that at the end of the day they are going to piss off the Rays owners and they will take this team and move it. It willl bring back memories of the Browns bolting for Baltimore

Philsfan10
10-13-2010, 05:09 PM
Baseball fan-base of Florida is just terrible in general. I lived in Florida from grades k-12, no one in my school (or area) was a fan of any of the Florida teams... all northern teams.

PeteRoseBelongs
10-13-2010, 05:11 PM
people in florida suck in general. I hate this damn state.

texasdave
10-14-2010, 09:19 AM
Stick around and watch the 2011 Reds. There's your elite team.

New York Red
10-14-2010, 06:06 PM
Teams that have a TRUE #1 starter...look the the 4 teams in the division championship they all have true #1 starters.... Halladay, Lee, Lincecum, Sabathia.
That's a good starting point - no pun intended, but I think it takes more than just one great pitcher. Look at all the bad teams Nolan Ryan played for, for example. I agree an elite team needs a true ace, but it needs other parts too.

Kingspoint
10-15-2010, 04:09 AM
That's a good starting point - no pun intended, but I think it takes more than just one great pitcher. Look at all the bad teams Nolan Ryan played for, for example. I agree an elite team needs a true ace, but it needs other parts too.


The idea isn't that one great pitcher will lead you to a World Series title, but that you can't win a World Series title without having one of the 10 best pitchers from that particular year.

That's why the Giants can't win. They don't have one of the 10 best from 2010. Lincecum and Cain were not among the 10 best from 2010.

lonewolf371
10-15-2010, 10:48 PM
The idea isn't that one great pitcher will lead you to a World Series title, but that you can't win a World Series title without having one of the 10 best pitchers from that particular year.

That's why the Giants can't win. They don't have one of the 10 best from 2010. Lincecum and Cain were not among the 10 best from 2010.
I'm not sure that matters now that it's the post season. We all know Lincecum can pitch like he's the best pitcher in baseball on any given night.

Kingspoint
10-16-2010, 02:55 AM
I'm not sure that matters now that it's the post season. We all know Lincecum can pitch like he's the best pitcher in baseball on any given night.

I agree. It's possible for a pitcher who's really good, but has not had one of the "ten best" seasons of a particular year to take it to another level and pitch light's out during an entire post-season. It's just not likely to happen.

From what I've seen of Lincecum this year, he's just not as sharp as he was last year and the year before. I don't think he can do it this year...at least not outduel Oswalt or Halladay or Lee or C. J. Wilson.

Roush's socks
10-17-2010, 02:21 AM
I agree. It's possible for a pitcher who's really good, but has not had one of the "ten best" seasons of a particular year to take it to another level and pitch light's out during an entire post-season. It's just not likely to happen.

From what I've seen of Lincecum this year, he's just not as sharp as he was last year and the year before. I don't think he can do it this year...at least not outduel Oswalt or Halladay or Lee or C. J. Wilson.

Halladay didn't look unhittable tonight and Lincecum did outpitch him.

Kingspoint
10-17-2010, 04:21 AM
Halladay didn't look unhittable tonight and Lincecum did outpitch him.

Just one game. That said, Lincecum didn't pitch as well as the REDS' starters pitched against the Phillies in the playoffs.

improbus
10-17-2010, 10:51 AM
An elite team can beat other great teams. The Reds feasted on the Cubs, Pirates, Brewers, and Astros. Look at this:
vs. Cubs - 12 - 4
vs. Astros - 10 - 5
vs. Pirates - 10 - 6
vs Brewers 11 - 3
Now, lets' see what the Reds did against the top half of the league
vs. Atl. - 2 - 3
vs. Col - 2 - 5
vs. Phi - 2 - 5
vs. SD - 2 - 4
vs. SFG - 3 - 4
vs. Stl. - 6 - 12

In fact, the Reds didn't have a winning record this season against any team that was above .500 and didn't have a losing record against anyone at .500 or below. I think this season's excellent showing had alot to do with the schedule and the ability to beat lesser teams. But, you can't be an "elite" team without beating good teams.