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View Full Version : Marge knew JimBo was a mistake.



Wheelhouse
08-26-2010, 11:47 AM
According to the article on Bob Quinn in today's Enquirer:

"After Piniella left the Reds following the 1992 season and Schott chose not to extend Quinn's contract, Quinn took the GM's job in San Francisco. Later, he made a trip into Cincinnati with the Giants and recalls "Tom the Sandwich Man" in the press dining room at Riverfront Stadium telling him that "Mrs. Schott is looking for you."

That day, Schott told Quinn, "You know, honey, I made a mistake. I listened to too many people, and I didn't know who to trust." And that was all she said, and she walked away, Quinn recalls.

"Over all these years, I've never told anybody that story except my family," Quinn said."

LincolnparkRed
08-26-2010, 12:11 PM
Look what it got her. Did the Reds not offer Lou an extension or did he just not take it? I was in high school but don't remember how it went down.

macro
08-26-2010, 12:29 PM
I would have loved to have seen how the 90s would have turned out with Lou in the dugout and Quinn in the front office. But even with the mistakes of their departures, the team still had a chance to be great with Davey Johnson in the dugout, and that got messed up, too.

That was the same year the Bengals traded in Sam Wyche for David Shula and Boomer Esiason for David Klingler. Meanwhile, the Packers were trading a draft pick for an Atlanta Falcons quarterback who had thrown five passes in his rookie season. His name was Favre. Missed opportunities...

westofyou
08-26-2010, 12:38 PM
I wonder if she told the same thing to Bill Bergesch and Murray Cook?

Sea Ray
08-26-2010, 12:45 PM
Look what it got her. Did the Reds not offer Lou an extension or did he just not take it? I was in high school but don't remember how it went down.

They waited until after the season to offer Lou an extension and that pissed him off. I recall his interview and he said "I didn't want to come back."

Basically Lou and his ego didn't like being treated that way. If they'd offered an extension earlier in the year and told him how great he was, he likely would have stayed.

This was a mistake of handling personnel; very common problem throughout the Marge yrs

macro
08-26-2010, 12:50 PM
I wonder if she told the same thing to Bill Bergesch and Murray Cook?

Yep, they had three straight really good GMs (four if you count Howsam's second tenure) and each was let go too soon. Then the worst of the bunch (Bowden) kept his job for over ten years.

I don't remember who made what decisions, but the decision to keep Larkin over Stillwell and the trades for Danny Jackson and Jose Rijo were brilliant.

westofyou
08-26-2010, 01:10 PM
http://baseballminutia.com/blog/2006/06/29/reds-history-hows-wayne-measuring-up/



Bill Bergesch – Hired October 1984
Former Title – Director of Baseball Operations – New York Yankees.

First Move – Keefe Cato to San Diego for Darren Burroghs. Bergesch made only 2 trades in his first 8 months on the job.

Most Famous Player Traded First – Cesar Cedeno was traded to the Cardinals in August for Mark Jackson. Cesar was out of the game the next year but strung together 76 magical at bats for the NL pennant winners.

Most Famous Trade Pickup – Buddy Bell, 10 months in to the job Bergesch made his first significant trade and it was steal, trading Duane Walker and Jeff Russell in mid July of 1985.

Best Young Player Pickup – Slow on the draw was Bergesch’s main problem it took him 15 months to pick up a future impact Red, once again though it was steal, with the Reds relinquishing Wayne Krenchicki and ending up with Norm Charlton.

See Ya – Who’d he cut? – Every GM usually comes aboard with a plan and often that doesn’t include the former regimes players. So the axe often swings freely, in Bergesch’s tenure the axe took down longtime Reds Frank Pastore.

Biggest Mistake – Being slow with the trade trigger was Bill’s biggest headache and it would eventually cost him his job as he held on to both the Reds shortstop prospects and the quickly multiplying outfield prospects.

First Draft – Bergesch endeared himself to Reds fans forever by being the GM who chose Barry Larkin with the 4th pick in the 1985 draft.

Murray Cook – Hired October 1987
Former Title: Montreal GM and Yankee Employee.

First Move – – Unlike his predecessor Cook started off with a bang, trading Kurt Stillwell for left hander Danny Jackson, who would be a major player for the Reds for the next few years.

Most Famous Player Traded First – Targeting pitching was Cooks first order of business, so he moved Dave Parker for Jose Rijo and Tim Birtsas.

Most Famous Trade Pickup – Danny Jackson was an established starter who immediately strengthened the Reds weak staff.

Best Young Player Pickup – Jose Rijo would go on to be one of the best pitchers in team history.

See Ya – Who’d he cut? – Cook was the man who sent Tom Hume into the coaching profession in the autumn of 1987.

Biggest Mistake – Saddled without a first round choice in the 1988 draft Cook took Jeff Branson with the number one pick, in a draft that was largely disappointing from top to bottom for the Reds.

First Draft – See above.

Bob Quinn – Hired October 1989
Former Title: Yankee Employee

First Move – – It almost seems common with Reds general managers, the first deal is usually a deal for arms, and in Cook’s case it was no different, in December he sent John Franco to the Mets for Randy Meyers and Kip Gross.

Most Famous Player Traded First – John Franco was the Reds closer and a fan favorite, evidently he was easy to replace.

Most Famous Trade Pickup – Billy Hatcher/Bill Doran. Not looking for big name players Quinn’s biggest names acquired would both play roles in the 1990 teams run for the title, and neither would cost more then a middling prospect.

Best Young Player Pickup – Quinn’s 2nd trade was a steal for the Reds as Quinn picked the pocket of his former employers the Yankees and traded Tim Leary and Van Snider for Hal Morris.

See Ya – Who’d he cut? – Quinn was the man responsible finally getting Dave Collins of the field of play.

Biggest Mistake – The man drove the bus to the World Series in his first season, we’ll give this one a pass.

First Draft – In Quinn’s first draft he created what some consider a cardinal sin, he drafted a catcher with his first pick. Holy Steve Swisher, it didn’t fail… nor impress many either.

REDREAD
08-26-2010, 01:28 PM
I don't know.. I have a hard time believing that Bergess was better than Bowden. I read WOY's recap, and this confirms it.

Bowden was not a man that I'd want my sons to emulate, but he put together good teams in 95, 95, and 99. He got Jr here. He brought in a lot of talent and considering Marge didn't want to spend any money on the "little leaguers" (farm team), it's amazing how good a team he put together.

Chip R
08-26-2010, 01:35 PM
Who was the GM that lost Reggie Jefferson to CLE on a waiver SNAFU?

REDREAD
08-26-2010, 01:45 PM
Who was the GM that lost Reggie Jefferson to CLE on a waiver SNAFU?

Actually, it wasn't a snafu at all. It was intentional. The Reds were trying to send him back to the minors to avoid paying him ML salary, IIRC.
The Reds were fully aware of the risk they were taking, and understood the rules.

File that under the stupid things, like Marge making people save old office paper work to use as scratch paper..

bucksfan2
08-26-2010, 02:14 PM
Bowden was not a man that I'd want my sons to emulate, but he put together good teams in 95, 95, and 99. He got Jr here. He brought in a lot of talent and considering Marge didn't want to spend any money on the "little leaguers" (farm team), it's amazing how good a team he put together.

I think Bowden often gets a bad rap based upon the end to his GM tenure. He did become a pompous arrogant guy but the reality is, when given the money to play with, he put together competitive clubs. I still remember when Carl Linder blocked trades for Chuck Finley because it would add about $.25M and Bartolo Colon because he wouldn't pick up a $5M option for the next season. He did have an affinity for "toolsy" type players, and I wouldn't want him running any kind of minor league draft/system. But as a deal maker in the 90's for the Reds Bowden did a nice job.

SunDeck
08-26-2010, 02:20 PM
I don't know.. I have a hard time believing that Bergess was better than Bowden. I read WOY's recap, and this confirms it.

Bowden was not a man that I'd want my sons to emulate, but he put together good teams in 95, 95, and 99. He got Jr here.

I think it's a mistake to say anyone but Jr. brought Jr. to the Reds. Once he said he wanted to go home (actually the Reds, Mets, Braves or Astros) I believe any GM for the Reds would have needed to try to acquire him. The fans wanted that trade pretty badly.

SunDeck
08-26-2010, 02:22 PM
File that under the stupid things, like Marge making people save old office paper work to use as scratch paper..

Not to say ol' Marge was progressive in any way, shape or deed, but that's a pretty green practice right there.;)

REDREAD
08-26-2010, 02:24 PM
I think it's a mistake to say anyone but Jr. brought Jr. to the Reds. Once he said he wanted to go home (actually the Reds, Mets, Braves or Astros) I believe any GM for the Reds would have needed to try to acquire him. The fans wanted that trade pretty badly.

The hardest part though was convincing John Allen + Lindner to agree.
Then getting Jr to agree to about 1/2 his market value.
I'm pretty sure DanO could not have pulled that deal off (or would've even tried). Bowden had John Allen on the radio saying the Jr deal was dead, yet still managed to pull it off. It's a testament to Bowden getting things done.

15fan
08-26-2010, 02:40 PM
That day, Schott told Quinn, "You know, honey, I made a mistake. I listened to too many people, and I didn't know who to trust." And that was all she said, and she walked away, Quinn recalls.

So Marge apologized without using the words "I'm sorry" or giving the person she wronged an opportunity to say anything?

Sounds like Marge alright.

SunDeck
08-26-2010, 02:48 PM
The hardest part though was convincing John Allen + Lindner to agree.
Then getting Jr to agree to about 1/2 his market value.
I'm pretty sure DanO could not have pulled that deal off (or would've even tried). Bowden had John Allen on the radio saying the Jr deal was dead, yet still managed to pull it off. It's a testament to Bowden getting things done.

Griffey talked about less money first and revived the deal. (http://enquirer.com/editions/2000/02/10/spt_deal_became_too_good.html)


Before Allen could draft a press release, however, Goldberg preempted it with a public declaration. He said Junior was prepared to take less money, much of it deferred, to come home and play for the Reds. With that single statement, Goldberg cancelled most of the Reds' reservations. It was the proverbial offer you can't refuse.

Chip R
08-26-2010, 02:49 PM
Actually, it wasn't a snafu at all. It was intentional. The Reds were trying to send him back to the minors to avoid paying him ML salary, IIRC.
The Reds were fully aware of the risk they were taking, and understood the rules.

File that under the stupid things, like Marge making people save old office paper work to use as scratch paper..


I was under the impression that it was a snafu and that was a big strike against the GM at the time and something that led to his eventual dismissal. I never got that since CLE wasn't a rival.

Danny Serafini
08-26-2010, 02:55 PM
I was under the impression that it was a snafu and that was a big strike against the GM at the time and something that led to his eventual dismissal. I never got that since CLE wasn't a rival.

That's how I remember it too. Someone goofed and used the DFA instead of an option. This was back when you rarely heard of anyone getting DFAed. The trade to Cleveland was just them salvaging the best they could out of a bad situation.

macro
08-26-2010, 02:56 PM
...when given the money to play with, he put together competitive clubs...

I think that's the key part about Bowden, though. Marge would open the checkbook and Bowden would get a player. What impresses me is when a GM picks another team's pocket, such as the Stillwell for Danny Jackson deal.

cumberlandreds
08-26-2010, 03:07 PM
I was not following the Reds very close during the Bowden years so this is what I perceived. It seemed like every year he would pick up some big name or semi big name hitter on a one year deal. They would have good year,pack up, leave and Bowden would do the same the next year. Being able to do that takes some skill to see who can help and who can't. But it takes a lot of luck too. It was only matter of time before that well went dry. Couple that with his obvious arrogant attitude and that would make for a bad ending.

Tom Servo
08-26-2010, 03:21 PM
Bowden was what he was: a snake. In a vacuum he wasn't terrible at his job of acquiring players and putting together decent teams, but all of his negative attributes outweighted the positives.

redsfandan
08-26-2010, 04:04 PM
I wonder if she told the same thing to Bill Bergesch and Murray Cook?


So Marge apologized without using the words "I'm sorry" or giving the person she wronged an opportunity to say anything?

Sounds like Marge alright.
Marge was full of flaws. That's a given. And she eventually became demonized and the subject of ridicule because of that. But I think she was just way over her head.

westofyou
08-26-2010, 04:10 PM
Marge was full of flaws. That's a given. And she eventually became demonized and the subject of ridicule because of that. But I think she was just way over her head.

"Think" nah... she was by far.

In fact the way she ended up the majority owner and the ensuing result afterwards is quite reminiscent of another local guy who wanted to own the Reds, didn't really have the capital to do it correctly and wasn't the best owner in choosing guys to build the team. That would be Sidney Weil, who lost the team to the bank in 30's and thus the city almost lost the team.

Heath
08-27-2010, 08:51 AM
"Think" nah... she was by far.

In fact the way she ended up the majority owner and the ensuing result afterwards is quite reminiscent of another local guy who wanted to own the Reds, didn't really have the capital to do it correctly and wasn't the best owner in choosing guys to build the team. That would be Sidney Weil, who lost the team to the bank in 30's and thus the city almost lost the team.

Thankfully, Marge didn't run around in uniform chasing fly balls like Sid Weil did.

Oh, yeah, she just sent Schottzie. My bad.

bucksfan2
08-27-2010, 09:50 AM
Marge was full of flaws. That's a given. And she eventually became demonized and the subject of ridicule because of that. But I think she was just way over her head.

Years ago my little brothers little league team got a tour of the Reds stadium when Marge was in charge. They got to go on the field during batting practice and Marge even invited them into the her office prior to the game. It was a pleasure meeting Marge. She was as kind and as "grandmotherly" as you could imagine. She had took care of us kids, let us pet Schottzie, and it was an all around great time. I have a tough time saying anything that bad about Marge because I truly identify her with my grandparents. My Grandpa comes into work every day and every day says something he shouldn't. I hate to admit it but it just comes from the era they grew up in.

Marge did have her flaws, but one of those flaws was the burning desire to win. The Reds were competitive throughout the 90's. And it wasn't an issue of money when it came to winning, Marge wasn't afraid to spend money. This Reds season has been very exciting for me, this type of season was almost commonplace under Marge in the 90's.

westofyou
08-27-2010, 10:14 AM
Marge wasn't afraid to spend money.


Actually aside from salaries to ballplayers (something she was forced to pay) she loathed spending money, and ran the organization like a small business while other teams were getting sports networks Marge was giving away day old donuts as new and not paying for the service that delivered scores to the teams scoreboard during games.

George Anderson
08-27-2010, 10:56 AM
Years ago my little brothers little league team got a tour of the Reds stadium when Marge was in charge. They got to go on the field during batting practice and Marge even invited them into the her office prior to the game. It was a pleasure meeting Marge. She was as kind and as "grandmotherly" as you could imagine. She had took care of us kids, let us pet Schottzie, and it was an all around great time. I have a tough time saying anything that bad about Marge because I truly identify her with my grandparents. My Grandpa comes into work every day and every day says something he shouldn't. I hate to admit it but it just comes from the era they grew up in.

Marge did have her flaws, but one of those flaws was the burning desire to win. The Reds were competitive throughout the 90's. And it wasn't an issue of money when it came to winning, Marge wasn't afraid to spend money. This Reds season has been very exciting for me, this type of season was almost commonplace under Marge in the 90's.

Good post!!

REDREAD
08-27-2010, 10:59 AM
I was under the impression that it was a snafu and that was a big strike against the GM at the time and something that led to his eventual dismissal. I never got that since CLE wasn't a rival.

As I remember it, they wanted to save $$ on his salary by sending him to the minors for awhile. I can't remember who was going to take his roster spot.. or maybe they were just going to go with 24 guys..

Anyhow, he had to pass through waviers to be sent through the minors, and someone claimed him.. I guess my point is that any GM would know that putting a guy through waivers exposes him to the risk of being claimed. Even though Jefferson was one of the Reds better prospects, he was a DH and AL player, so I'm guessing he was not that highly thought of? I forget who the Reds had playing 1b at the time. (Maybe he was coming off the DL, and that's why they wanted to send Jefferson back to the minors).

I guess the point is that they knew the risk they were taking, but did it anyway.. Maybe I am splitting hairs, but it was due to cheapness that they lost him, not ignorance of the rules.

REDREAD
08-27-2010, 11:03 AM
Actually aside from salaries to ballplayers (something she was forced to pay) she loathed spending money, and ran the organization like a small business while other teams were getting sports networks Marge was giving away day old donuts as new and not paying for the service that delivered scores to the teams scoreboard during games.

And the amazing thing is that John Allen and Carl Lindner somehow managed to trump her cheapness. They were just a little more sophisticated, although John Allen did his share of embarrassing the Reds in the press too.

Thank God we have Cast running the team now. It's sad he didn't own the team in 2000 or 2003. He would've taken advantage of those huge revenue jumps and invested in the long term.

Roy Tucker
08-27-2010, 11:36 AM
We used to have season tickets at Riverfront down by where Marge sat. More than once, Marge motioned over my 2 then-young daughters and they sat with Marge and yakked for 15-20 minutes. They'd take their dolls over and all that.

When I asked them what they talked about, my girls said "oh, just stuff. she's nice but she does smell like cigarettes".

But being a nice lady to kids and being a competent MLB owner are 2 different skill sets. She did the former well but the latter pretty awful.

savafan
08-27-2010, 03:28 PM
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1991-06-28/sports/1991179185_1_assignment-list-jefferson-trade


It all started when the Reds designated Reggie Jefferson for assignment rather than put him on the disabled list. The Reds had intended to send Jefferson to the minor leagues, but he was suffering from pneumonia at the time and a player can't be demoted if he is physically unable to perform.

The suspicion was that the Reds intended to put Jefferson on a minor-league disabled list to avoid paying him a major-league salary. The club denies that charge, but general manager Bob Quinn admitted making a technical error by putting Jefferson on the designated for assignment list -- from which a player can only be traded or released.